Why be afraid of revelation!!!! It says those who read this will be blessed... Don't
you want to be blessed and your Congregations?
I think good title topic here is Challenges!
New Year Hope-struggles appropriate... Just as you may not be comfortable with this
passage,God may call you to preach on it... Get out of your comfort zone and preach the
word! CB in OHIO
I am thinking of approching this as "what God makes new in a Christian home here
and now. Can we ask God's help so that we live remember God was our begining and he is our
ending. God making a all things new including the sanctuaries of our hearts and our
homes.. Love that abounds, God"s law of love first. Nancy-Wi
John's vision shows us that in the resurrection the new age has dawned; God dwells with
us already. Yet we wait for the time when the tears that cloud our vision will be wiped
away. The we will see the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem.
I will be preaching this coming Sunday. I have been wrestling with the following
dilemma. As soon as I read this Lection, I recalled singing the song below at 8:30a.m in
November 1998(I think I mentioned this in an earlier posting.) Around this time, my mother
died at home. I'm trying to appropriately use this next Sunday.
In the land of fadeless day Lies the "city four-square," It shall never pass
away, And there is "no night there."
Refrain God shall "wipe away all tears;" There's no death, no pain, nor
fears; And they count not time by years, For there is "no night there."
All the gates of pearl are made, In the "city four-square," All the streets
with gold are laid, And there is "no night there."
Refrain
And the gates shall never close To the "city foursquare," There life's
crystal river flows, And there is "no night there."
Refrain
There they need no sunshine bright, In that "city foursquare," For the Lamb
is all the light, And there is "no night there."
Shalom Bammamma
In Galatians 4:21ff, Paul allegorically compares Hagar to Mt. Sinai (children of
law/slaves) with Sarah to the Jerusalem above (children of promise/free). Usually
exegeting texts allegorically is a no-no, but Paul gets away with it because...well, he is
Paul.
We are already citizens of this new "Jerusalem above," which Paul speaks of,
by faith in Christ. (The true children of Abraham).
And in Revelation 21, John describes the vision of the Jerusalem above as a bride
adorned for her husband. This beautiful, heavenly, "New Jerusalem above" is
truly where our citizenship is, even now while we are on earth. Our reservations have been
made...the inaugurated eschatology of "even now, not yet." Reservations made by
name in baptism, etc.
Just some early thoughts...tough (and exegetically dangerous) to make a dead-on
comparison with an allegory. (Notice that I switched between the New Jerusalem being The
Church and the New Jerusalem being the actual, physical heavenly city - a completely new
city (not remodeled) according to the Greek word for "new" used in this text.
Perhaps you can weave this better than I. Doing it just now has challenged me enough
that I don't think I'm going to do it. Thanks for pushing me into the text ... and on
Sunday already!
Luther in IA
See I am making things all new... Life is about many new begings... that come after
appropriate tears often... I think of the time my children left home... the time my
mother-in-law died... maybe the key to this passage is in the word trust... to often I
know I want to micro manage. Christ dwells with in each of us as the Holy Spirit, and the
Holy Spirit has the power to make us new. Sorry more ramblings than put together thoughts.
Nancy-Wi
Nancy Your thoughts are helpful. I'm looking at the passing on that parenthood does.
From human birth, to human death, there is life. The writer of Revelation saw a New heaven
and a New earth. "All things are new." My mother wanted to remain on earth to
"raise" her daughter. 59 years later, she laid down and died. She was going
where the Lamb provides the light. (undescribable) by humans. When her mother died, when
she was nine, she asked the question, "who will take care of me." God gave her
the hymn "God will take care of you." She got the opportunity to share with me
her daughter that message.
I want this however a message for not only persons my age, but children and youth and
young adults, so I don't want it to be a message of sadness.
Thanks Luther and Nancy for your thoughts,
Shalom Bammamma
John Calvin believed that God “condescends” to us in both Christ and in the
sacraments, not in the negative sense as we now use it, but that is the act of a gracious
God to come down and to be with his people. Imagine that you are A Christian being
persecuted for your faith by the powerful Roman Empire, and that the persecution is so bad
that some people are saying that the current emperor is Nero (who started the first great
persecution) reborn. Imagine hearing these words read in your small assembly, with the
hope that things are not always as they seem, that something new is happening, and that
God is with his people. The images (metaphors?) are ones of great joy and remind us that
the final victory is already ours in Christ- that in both the beginning and the end, He
will be all in all- so hang in there- you are not alone (from the Scots Confession-
“What is my chief comfort in life? That I belong body and soul to Christ Jesus)
revgilmer in Texarkana (among the un-chickens! hope it doesn’t also turn out to be
the un-wise!)
I really hate being called "chicken" just because I hesitate to preach on
Revelation. I hesitate because I'm not confident in its interpretation, and because too
many people have preconceived ideas of what's going to happen - and you'd better believe
just like they do or you'll go to hell, and furthermore, you're not worthy to be their
pastor.
And, incidentally, thanks to the discussions last week, I DID preach on Revelation as a
2ndary text (I'd alighted on the Acts) - and even read it during worship.
Am I chicken of Revelation? No, I'm chicken of the line=in-the-sand conflict by many of
our congregants, and especially by you at the beginning of this page of discussion!!!!
Your post has some merit, but I really resent starting a discussion with a laying down
of the gauntlet that accuses any who would read it of being chicken - thereby seeming to
challenge any of us to be on the defense.
I don't usually even respond to that sort of thing ... (which usually has the effect of
"proving" the other's point in their own mind), but I simply hope that this can
be a forum where we discuss openly. Maybe it's the sort-of anonymity of the internet that
has prompted me to respond.
In any case, thanks for letting me have my say.
Sally in GA
After reading Marcus Borg's "Reading The Bible Again For the First Time," I
have to appreciate Revelation. I think I will be preaching on God dwelling in the city or
in The Messsage's words "God coming to the neighborhood." Jesus said that the
Kingdom of God is within us and that we could do as great of things as him. But we hold
back and do not live as though the kingdom is within us. Our western society is so far
from the vision of Revelation and the dream of Jesus that I think many of us find it
daunting. But we don't have to build the kingdom in a day or by ourselves. We are called
to love one another as Jesus loves us and to include even those we would rather not. The
scriptures tie together so well this week. I am looking forward to other postings ontihs
passage. Thkans all. LGB
I've been thinking about the word "bride." The Bride (in current culture) is
not the heavenly city joyously anticipating Christ; it is Uma Thurman in a yellow track
suit, with a sword. Quentin Tarantino appears to have a vision opposite of that of John:
The Bride is all about hacking off limbs, blood and vengeance.
The parallel of this with Isaiah 65:17 is worth noting. Walter Brueggemann in
"Isaiah 40-66" observes, "There is a steady push toward newness in the
Isaiah tradition that intends to override the despair of Israel. The newness to be wrought
by the inscrutable power and irresistible resolve of Yahweh is as large as heaven and
earth. The old heavens are overrun with controversy. The old earth is burned out with
violence. The new cosmic realm will be perfectly governed by Yahweh, and the cosmos will
be perfectly responsive to that governance... This new infrastructure of the city will be
marked by peace, justice, righteousness, and faithfulness."
Brueggemann also comments on the close of the book's strange tension between
inclusivity and exclusivity. (We can see this in the Revelation text too, for those of you
who go on to read about "the lake of fire" and condemnation.) I have to quote
him at length:
"Interpreters observet that these final verses of the book of Isaiah exhibit a
profound tension between magnanimous inclusiveness and intensely felt exclusiveness. It is
evident, moreover, that there have been continuous, disputatious editing and additions to
the book, as though each of the contending parties of inclusiveness and exclusiveness was
determined to have one more say, and even to have the last say. "Clearly, the
disputatious editing is not finished. It was not finished in ancient Judaism... The issue
is not finished in the contemporary life of the church, for the struggles concerning
inclusion and exclusion continue. It is not clear who will have the last word in the
church, or indeed if there will ever be a 'last word.'"
Some things to chew on...
LF
I see a wonderful tie in between the readings in Acts and Revelation and not just
because we're dealing with visions. In the reading from Acts, Peter is confronted by a
Lord that was "making all things new." As several of you have posted, Peter's
first response was that "we've never done it this way before" and God's reply
was, "Get used to it." In a way, God wipes out the old (the old prejudices, the
old fears, the old limitations) and creates a new world for any that will be part of it,
Jew or Gentile. Now the dwelling of God is with ALL people, not just a select few in
Jerusalem, and He reaches out to them and sends the believers to tell them that He wants
to be their God and wants them to be His people. I think that might even preach. So do you
think anyone will complain that "we've never done this before" as God re-creates
Heaven and Earth? Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
I'd like to make a comment about the inclusivety vs. exclusivity issue. In the last
chapters of Revelation, the gates to the city are never shut (21:25). Still, that does not
mean that everyone enters those gates. Revelation makes it clear that some stay outside,
by their own choice. To quote last week's lesson, those who stand before the throne are
those who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. In other
words, those who have admitted their sinfulness and their need for forgiveness through the
death of Jesus. Revelation preaches justification by faith, not universalism. Those who do
not wish to repent of their sins, or deny their sinfulness and their need for a Savior,
stay outside the new Jerusalem. The gates are open, the water of life is offered without
price (22:17), but not everybody takes up the offer. It is true that people from every
race, nation, language and ethnic group inhabit the new Jerusalem. As Peter learned in our
1st Lesson, the gospel is not limited by these things. Jesus died for all. But not
everyone believes. -- Mike in Maryland
I found my own answer to the question about Babylon and Rome. The connection is that
Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and later Rome did too and therefore Babylon was then used as
a code name for Rome by some Jewish and early Christian groups. Just in case anyone else
was wondering. LGB
Mike:
That sounds like the Swedenborgian theology of salvation, something I just recently
learned through one of their pamphlets. It's hard to imagine, though, anyone facing the
opportunity to be with God choosing NOT to go into the New Jerusalem. I've long maintained
that this scripture says that regardless, we'll all get a last-ditch chance to believe.
That we're not, based on our deeds or misdeeds or correctly-formulated confession of faith
condemned to Hell for all eternity when our very view of eternality is a New Jerusalem.
It's THIS that is difficult to preach - especially to those whose minds are simply
wrapped around the idea of Christianity's main purpose being for getting themselves into
Heaven when they die.
It's THIS that reconciles in my mind John 3:17 (God did not send the son into the world
to condemn it, but to save it) with - not really universal salvation - but universal
opportunity for salvation. It can happen, says Revelation, in the afterlife. That's what
we forget.
Would one holding honest doubts, or one who'd spent their lives devoted to a religion
other than Christianity be standing outside the doors looking in and NOT say "Oh, I
guess I was mistaken!"
The thing is, we can't be certain that WE'RE not going to be standing outside the doors
looking in and saying "Oh, I guess I was mistaken!"
OK - it's out there, my radical beliefs. I simply CANNOT reconcile a justifying,
loving, non-condemning God with one who says "unless you confess Christianity this
certain way, you'll be tortured in hell for the rest of your life." And heaven forbid
that you never hear the Gospel or the Gospel is not the dominant religion in your socitety
because you're gonna burn, sucker! It seems we speak with forked tongues.
Sally
Sally There is nothing radical about your beliefs. Christian range from the far right
to the far right, and we are all someplace along the continuum. Although I am not at the
same place you are, because of a different journey, I support your faith along with those
who are going to say, both of us are going to hell. That is their journey. But it is
exactly because of your beliefs that I feel you should continue to exegete and preach
Revelations. There are those in your congregation, and those who will be coming who need a
pastor like you to share your faith and call. John Westerhoff said as Christians we don't
do "doubting faith" very well. We rush to make people move to "owned
faith" probably before they are ready. Many of them just don't bother to come in our
doors. God bless you on this Mother's day
Shalom Bammamma
Back in January, many of us celebrated Epiphany, which I like to refer to as
"Light Bulb Sunday." It is a celebration of the times that God reveals himself
but the "epiphany" isn't complete until we recognize it, until the light bulb
comes on. Through the message from Acts, I can see that, with God, revelation is a
constant process because He is constantly revealing His nature to us. John's words were
more that just a vision of the future because they supposed to have meaning for his day
and our days and the days which are to come. We preach that God dwelt among us as Jesus
and indwells us as the Holy Spirit, that He is with us always no matter what the world
throws at us. The Church in persecution in John's day deperately needed to see that. The
Church in persecution in our day (and it is still there) survives by that revelation of
God. The soft lazy Church living the good life needs to have the light bulb come on
because the God that we claim as our God and that we claim dwells among us is not a God of
inactivity but a God of "Believer, get up and go," daring us to proclaim
anything that He created as being unworthy of our efforts (unclean). Christ still makes
all things new. That's the glory of salvation. If we refuse to see the new for the old,
that's our problem, not God's. The Revelation is still there, with words that are
"trustworthy and true." The light bulb is just waiting to come on. Mike in Soddy
Daisy, TN
In the new world that will come to pass it says that God shall rain supreme over the
Universe and that all the enemies of God will burn in the "Lake of Fire".
I relates to the creation of the Garden of Eden again. It also one that finds his name
in the Book of Life will be saved, so does that mean that If the sin is of great cost to
the world he will banish you to the Lake of FIre to suffer for eternity, but Jesus states
that the admittance of the sin and the turning back to God's way will save you. Then the
bible goes one to contradict itself by stating that if you should not find your name in
the Book of Life then there is no chance for you to be saved.
The question here is, "Is turning back to God the way to save yourself or is it a
way for you to instill within yourself false hope and the false joy that the non sinning
have?"
At the time of the coming is it the time to turn back to Jesus and to repent for the
sins in which you have committed. Or is it the time where the judgment of your soul has
come to pass and you shall be taken from the shell in which incorporates your soul. It was
told to me a long time ago that there was great heroes of the time of Jesus and before
people that follow the way of God and the truth and these were the people that protected
God's Kingdom and the ones to up hold the Justice on earth.
These people i can tell you do exist in the realm of the living as they do not remember
the past life of themselves but at time they see what they once were and to the happiness
they shared with loved ones. You see they always look the same as before and when the time
comes there lost loves one reunite with them in some way that is how they live. In
stories
they do not have in the bible lost to the world there are additions to the Revelation
which state In the end St Micheals Angels living or dead will rejoin their comrades and
combat the damned (The fallen Arc Angels)
The curmudgeons constantly complain about the present state of political affairs. They
constantly accuse those in power because (simply put) they don't have any. But we don't
have any either, not that kind. Our power as Christians lies largely in our understanding
that the world is shifting toward not power, but beauty -- not judgement, but mercy, --
not doubt, but hope. Our vision of the world that our children will inherit is
significantly more beautiful than the one we are leaving behind. Either that or woe to
them -- they will inherit nothing. If all they had to look forward to was a day of
reckoning in which all their sin is laid bare -- a day which condemns them -- they would
spiral downward with the curmudgeons into the conviction that what we have stinks and that
it always will stink -- because that's the only compensation for condemnation.
But we have been promised something great -- not that we should relegate it to some
netherworld or other world which we can only know in abstraction. No. It must be real. It
is either real or we have been told one whopper of a lie. I'll put my hope in the reality,
not the idea alone. It will come to pass. And there is no reason why I (or anyone who is
so moved) cannot participate in this unfolding of the City of God. It is greater than
theology, and greater than miracles. It is true greatness beyond even the hope and the
promise of salvation (if that is even possible). It is not just knowing God but posessing
God -- having God as the sole Captain of our ship -- and not captain only of the church
but of our government as well.
Dan Servatius
