The Christ upon a cross, the serpents of culture that bite. Nancy-Wi
I have been pondering this text carefully. I can see possibilities
for some very good theology and psychology here. In the
contributions from a previous year, Al in Lexington, KY remarked:
"God doesn't take our problems away...The thing that caused the pain
was the symbol that brought the healing...The symbol of God in their
midst was an image of the very same thing that was making them
suffer." When we confront our problems, they lose their bite. Where
do we get the courage to do so? Through a faith that is not escapist
but grounded in the experience of humanity. Q: Moses was instructed
to make an image of a snake and hold it before the people. When they
looked upon the symbol, they lived. Is this bronze image a graven
image and therefore a breach of the commandment? Has anyone come
across any good commentaries on this? rc in quebec
How do we make sense out of this? God sent the snakes to bite the
people because they complained against God and Moses. The snakes had
the desired effect; the people repented and asked Moses to pray for
God to take the snakes away. God's response is not to remove the
snakes but to tell Moses to make a graven image of a snake and place
it on a pole so those who were bitten could look upon the image and
not die. The obvious question is: Why didn't God just remove the
snakes? I have read the comment that says, "God doesn't take our
problems away...The thing that caused the pain was the symbol that
brought the healing...The symbol of God in their midst was an image
of the very same thing that was making them suffer."
I want a better answer than this. This sounds like the cure for a
hangover that I heard: Have another drink of the same stuff you were
drinking the night before, you know, the "hair of the dog that bit
you."
Why didn't God just do what seemed obvious and remove the snakes?
Creature Wayne
I'm trying to figure out how the readings fit in with the war and
all, and I think I may expand on the first sentence of this reading
to talk about where things in the OT happened in relation to Iraq,
etc. I'll be trying to connect our lives to the lives of the Iraqis
through the bible.
momma helen
Creature Wayne,
I think that if God had just taken away the snakes the people would
have quickly forgotten that it was their complaining that brought
them on in the first place. I think that looking at the snake helped
to remind them that they were the ultimate source of the poison, and
helped them stay away from that particular poison in the future.
Kind'a like confession encourages true repentance. I'm not saying
that a beer first thing in the morning will neccessarily make you
think twice come evening, but it might! ;-) -SS in PA
After reading this passage, Was think about the image here? And Why
would God ask Moses to make a graven image? With you explanations
and thanks I see a little clearer. Yes, we too complain about the
wilderenss we live... God, I don't make enough to pay by bills, My
mother in law is a pain, I don't like eating beans everyday, I don't
like my cadillac, O God, why don't you buy me a mercedes bens? (
these complaints take all people regardless of status) Does God send
'snakes' to bite us, or do we perhaps have snake bait? Maybe we are
snake bait? (rememberances of eden) whether God sent or we make our
own misery. outcome same, the graven image- symbol of the cross,
just look upon Jesus and HE will cure what ails you... Notice God
tells Moses to tell them, all they have to do is look, not have to
touch or kiss...etc... just come to cross, look upon your Saviors
face, and He does it all! Pastor mary in Ohio
Did you know that the fiery serpent (KJV & RSV translation of
poisonous) is the same Hebrew word as is translated "Seraph" in
Isaiah 6? This bothers me. JRW on OH
I just found this...
Wisdom of Solomon 16:5-7 16:5 For when the terrible rage of wild
animals came upon your people F59 and they were being destroyed by
the bites of writhing serpents, your wrath did not continue to the
end; 16:6 they were troubled for a little while as a warning, and
received a symbol of deliverance to remind them of your law's
command. 16:7 For the one who turned toward it was saved, not by the
thing that was beheld, but by you, the Savior of all.
-SS in PA
I love this passage just for its sheer illustration of human nature.
For those of us serving in euphemistically-named "turn-around"
churches, we can relate pretty well. The congregation bemoans the
decline, but when trying to lead them into new territory, they often
grumble and gripe, polarize, and leave. It seems they want a pastor
who can come in and convince the neighborhood to like all the same
things they like and become just like the congregation. As the
phrase from Ephesians goes, "how boastful!"
Sally in GA (and trying not to choke to death on pollen)
Just a little sharing of a personal story ... I trust my
congregation enough to kind of laugh at sacred cows. We have a good
relationship so I can do this. Anyways, I've been exploring "core
values" vs. "cultural norms," and confessed to this older, Southern,
caucasion congregation that I really don't like Southern gospel
music, and I've never really liked "How Great Thou Art." I made
clear over and over (and this was in an interactive small group)
that this is MY OPINION, and that I was raised in the 70's in a
mostly Catholic area (though I was Protestant, in name only), in
Cleveland, Ohio, the Rock and Roll Capital of the World. So, the
gospel music that spoke to me was along the lines of pop music.
You should have seen how shocked they were! I'm 40 years younger and
from the North, and they couldn't believe that I didn't
automatically fall in love with "old" Southern Gospel upon moving
here and hearing it. The core value is the praise of God - the
cultural norm, of course, is the music genre. How easy it is to
confuse a cultural norm with a core value. One woman has left the
church because (to qutoe her) "it's not the same."
How easy it is to get mired in "old time religion," and become
captive, and - yes - dehumanized in complacency. The dark creeps in
- Until something like a snake jumps up and bites us in the - uh -
derriere.
Sometimes we just have to leave and go awandering (valderee,
valderah ...) It's human nature to want to stay where they are. But
it's easy to confuse stuck-in-the-mud for stability. Our stability
comes form God.
Gosh, maybe this is what I'll preach.
Sally
I was reading a comment in the Wycliff commentary on this scripture.
Pardon me for butchering the words as printed, that is I'm
paraphrasing, but what I got out of the commentary was God had Moses
lift up that which represented their affliction i/e the snake. It
was a picture of that which would have to be lifted up for our
eternal salvation. In the same way that a snake was pinned to the
pole representing all of the snakes, our sins were pinned to the
cross by crucifying a sinless human. Notice that the snake that was
set up on a pole never hurt any of those wandering the desert. I
guess after reading this it comes down to believing and faith. Don't
you think those who were in the situation with the snakes were
wondering how a bronze replica placed on a pole could save them from
a venomous bite? I know I would have questioned that logic. I guess
in the same way we ask how does pinning an innocent man on a cross
save us from our sins? Take a look at the other scriptures in the
lectionary this week. In Ephesians it talks about salvation by grace
through faith. Just a thought. Thanks for reading.
JM in Indiana
Sally in GA: Thanks for writing that. I needed to hear those words
now, as I'm trying to work with God to move a congregation from
self-centeredness. MTSOfan
JRW was bothered that there was a connection between poisonous
snakes and seraphs. It shouldn't bother you. The Hebrew root word
S-R-Ph means "fire" or "burning". A snake bite gives a burning
sensation so they were called "fiery snakes". A seraph is a fiery
angel ie: a (heavenly) being that looks like fire. Rev. karen in
Ontario
As a preliminary, let me first say how embarrased I am as a Canadian
that we are not supporting our neighbours in the war in Iraq. But
let me also say that I feel twisted and confused, not knowing to
whom I should be listening. Many of my clergy colleagues are proud
that we are standing up for peace -- a Christian ideal. And part of
me knows that peace is a better option. But not supporting our
neighbours feels so wrong ...
President Bush has declared war on Iraq, convinced that it is an
evil empire. He may well be correct that there are indeed weapons of
mass destruction there. But what President Bush has not done is look
to himself and see what hidden evils lie within himself.
The story of the serpents teaches us that to find true redemption we
need to confront the evil within us. The people grumbled, fiery
snakes were sent as a result, and redemption comes when they look to
the snakes, or psychologically speaking, when they look to their own
mistakes.
Confront the fear, ferret out the evil within us, and then we will
find true redemption from God.
How would the last few weeks have unfolded if President Bush had
considered that the western world might be in the wrong too? I would
think that Saddam Hussein is deeply in the wrong, but isn't American
foreign policy a little bit in the wrong too?
Saying all this on an American preaching site is already scary.
Saying all this from a pulpit is equally scary. O God, give us
wisdom and insight. Rev. Karen in Ontario
Rev. Karen in Ontario,
Don't be scared. We preachers in America are all over the board,
too. I even don't stay in the same place all the time.
However much we wish to accuse our President of not confronting his
own inner evils, we need to be fair that we would not see such
confrontation. Especially in time of war, he would need to keep
those misgivings private to resist the probability of demoralizing
the people.
Michelle
Good insight about looking at the poisonous serpent - our sins, and
Jesus became sin.
I hesitate, though, for fear of "seeing Jesus under every rock" in
the OT.
If I end up going with this, I'll probably be more philosophical and
general. I'm thinking along the lines of "we have to examine our
sins (or, "inner evils," as Michelle and Karen are saying) in order
to recognize them and be saved from them."
my early thoughts were rather tangental and simply indicated this
chronic frustration that comes with "turn-around." Anyways, sorry -
I was on cough medicine and feeling kind of weird.
Sally in GA
to Karen in Ontario -- I would have been supporting our war, and
would have been grateful to have had Canada in it with us -- had
Pres. Bush made his case with some data. I am no more convinced that
Saddam has what he said he didn't have than I was a year ago. War is
about the most serious actions any nation can take, and it is always
tragic, even when necessary. We surely shouldn't declare war on
someone because we "think" or are "pretty sure" something bad is
going on. I fear that our "arrogance of power" is going to bring us
at a tragic cost, to some humility one of these days --- and it
might be any day now.
speaking just for myself, but I'll bet for most all, I want you to
feel as comfortable saying things on this site as on any Canadian
site. We are all in this together, even if we don't always agree.
Bill in TN
If the snakes were sent only to punish God's people, God would have
eliminated them once the people repented. "Don't violate the
covenant." Lesson learned. But the snakes continued to bite and
would continue to bite as the Chosen People made their way through
the wilderness to the Promised Land. God did not remove the problem.
God provided a way of dealing with the problem. Put an image of the
snake on a pole, gaze upon it and you will receiving healing. How do
we name our problems and fears? How do we put an image to those
things of which we do not want to admit. (see ten-step problems)In
our Lenten journey through the wilderness of our souls, God provides
another image. More profoundly divine. More fully human. Jesus on
the cross. And asks us to bring our problems to him. God will break
through with creative options for us to work with that we never
imagined. Yes, the snakes will continue to bite (God's people will
always face problems), but their venom will no longer be
faith-denying as it was to the Israelites who could no longer even
appreciate the miracle of manna. Roberta in qc
The fascinating part of this text is the grace of God. I have to go
with the theme "Look up and live".
To the Israelites, the command made no sense. Deadly serpant bites
require more than looking at a pole...unless it is the faith in the
promise. Similarly, we think sin cannot be so easily forgiven, Satan
and death defeated by so simple an act as believing. This ties in so
beautifully with the Gospel and Epistle as it emphasizes grace
alone.
Look up and live, whether it be the bronze serpant or the cross of
Christ. Therein lies our hope. ARMY CH E, Ft Belvoir
"CUPIDITY" are there any good Catholics out there who can tell me
about cupidity. It is avarice, greed, etc. But I have heard it can
also be good? Like the snake--an image of sin and an image of
healing in this week's text. For example, if limits are set ambition
can be used for the good of humanity. There is nothing wrong with
providing for our families unless we exploit others, etc. What does
Aquinas say about it? Thanks. Roberta in qc
The caduceus -- the medical symbol with a snake on a stick -- seems
to have been derived from this story. Yet "caduceus" appears to be a
Greek word.(Classical Greek 101 was many, many years ago, but maybe
some of you remember). Does anyone know if there is a Greek legend
about a snake on a pole or is this medical symbol entirely derived
from Numbers? Rev. Karen in Ontario
Thanks for the discussion, all!
One of the ideas I'm playing with is how although the sins of the
people were the choice of the people... and although God sent the
snakes... the people at least had sense enough to put two and two
together and approach Moses and to ask for his intercession.
Now, I'm not comfortable with the whole "when I sin, God sends
lightingbolts" sort of theology, because there often is no cause and
effect. However, for the people to be able to recognize that there
is some cause and effect happening here is interesting to me.
It's a bizarre sort of cause and effect though, isn't it? The cure
is bizarre as well.
So much for the wisdom of THIS greek. <g>
Casey in NJ
