I'm making an early start on this one because I'm a lay preacher (so desperate for me means it isn't all sorted out a week before I have to take a service) and I have to do two different services this Trinity Sunday.
The Previous Discussion for this Sunday is really interesting, with lots of different triune images for trying to talk about the Trinity; I recommend the ice cream.
However, here's a yet another take from me. It's thought of as a children's address, but like all children's addresses worth having is aimed at the whole congregation.
What colour is the Italian flag (it could be any flag, but Italy's convenient for what follows). Probably a good idea to have a large Italian flag handy. It's
White: the colour of the light from which all coloured light is made.
Red: the colour of the blood that was shed to save us.
Green: the colour of growth and renewal and power that hurts no-one.
But what colour is the flag? Well, all those colours... except that nothing can be red and white and green all over, but God can be Father, Son, and Spirit all over and all through.
Stephen in Exeter UK
Does this fit with the creation story and the Psalmist marvelling over what a piece of work is man?
Pehaps we are a new creation. How do we discribe this? How does this differ from trying to go out and change the world into the image of our faith?
Matt. does not like some of the other Gospel use any of the other proofs, the scars, the eating of the fish. Jesus only appears once outside the tomb and then claims that he will appear to them in Galilee.
Quite different. Some of them doubted... Some of my parishiners doubt. pondering. nancy-WI
It strikes me that this text uses one of the most unliked four lettered words in the English language: OBEY
We like to take Jesus teachings and edit them and sanitized them. We accepte his grace but not his commands. The church in the West (at least my denomination) looks more and more like a "feel good" affirmation social club rather than "followers of the Way" that are called to obey.
Pr.del in Ia
Many of us from the 60's generation don't like the word "obedience" for good reason. We learned that not all adults are worthy of our obedience. And many of us try to raise our children to think for themselves and have strength to make their own moral choices. Children (especially these days) need to be able to say "no" to protect themselves, unfortunately from adults whom they are expected to respect and obey, even in the church.
But we may have good too far in rejecting the concept of obedience. Maybe that's because we see it only it the negative sense, that is, acting a certain way to avoid punishment, or submitting to a code of behavior just because some authority told us to.
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word "obey" is the same word that is also translated "to hear". And to hear the voice of God, means not just physically hearing, but also to understand and participate in fulfilling what the voice says.
When my daughter Talitha was just learning how to walk and talk, I remember saying to her, "Talitha, go get your shoes and bring them back here." And with great joy she padded into her room and brought back the shoes. We were ecstatic. Not because she did something for me. But because we knew by her response that she understood our words. She didn't get the shoes out of fear that she'd be punished, or because she had learned certain rules. She got them because she trusted me, and rejoiced in the ability to hear and obey.
We need to get away from the idea of obedience as a stiffling controlling phenomenon, to a response of a living and loving relationship, that is worthy of our obedience.
DGinNYC
The Great Commission is our mandate, the church's identity - this is what we are called to do and to be. Everything else we do - sports teams, parish dinners and social events, gender and age related clubs, must all point to this Commission are they are meaningless.
Why do we exist as a Church? What is the meaning of our discipleship? How do we bring the gospel to the people of our community? How do we reveal the love of Christ to a broken world?
tom in ga
P.S. To be Trinitarian is not so much to understand the tri-unity of God, but to live in the communion of the divine nature and in relation to all living things. As we are called to be stewards of the earth (Genesis), so we are called to be stewards of the Word of God.
Need some help. We are starting a blended worship
service at our Church, but I am looking around
to see how other churches do blended services.
Especially United Methodist .... Ideas from other
church communions welcome, too.
Preacher in Ks.
P.S.....I need these suggestions the 20th-25th of
May. Thanks.
Dnyc- Nice story about the shoes. I liked your post. I too am a product of the anti obey generation. I did not realize the other translation. Makes it more meaningful. Nancy-WI
Preacher in Ks. I consider our service blended. IT is the only one. How it is blended each week varies a bit according to the day's theme. I use Logos and modify some of it. (some of it is just to repetious.) I use some songs out of Faith We Sing and some out of the hymnal. If we do the Gloria Patri (favorite with one set) we do a doxology from Ruth Duck's book. I introduced liturgical dance and use a lot of reader theater. Sermon's are unfortuantly more traditional than I would like simply becausse of my time, this is a small church (about 85 in worship). The communion table and area changes a lot. The order of the service is set but never in stone. I do not have any guitar players or keyboard people. I use CD's (even some Country Western). If you have any questions, email me at revncarmichael@yahoo.com I am no expert, this is my first full time appointment and I am not through my first year yet. I would welcome more discussion on this subject perhaps in one of the other areas. Nancy-WI
RevGilmer in Texarkana - Thanx for your note about Galileans being the backwater hicks of Jewish culture in last Sunday's discussion. I used it. When the world travelers from Mesopotamia and elsewhere asked "What does this mean" that yokels know our language and prphesy of the works of God, I answered it means we have to lose our prejudices about who might speak a word from God to us. If Joel's words are true then no one is too young or too old, too foreign, too low class or too female to be a source of truth or hope from God. Yet only the "devout" accepted it. The dismissive heard only babble. Maybe at Babel it was the ears, not the tongues, which were changed, as they had not listened to God. Thanx again for your post. tom in TN(USA) P.S. thanx too Michelle and Boo Radley for other words.
28:19b Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...
For Trinity Sunday it seems important to emphasize that "making men holy" is the whole purpose of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). The Father purposed this in love when he sent us the Son. The Son fulfilled the requirements (all of the requirements) of God and man and presented us the Spirit. And the Spirit walks with us to bring to sure completion all that the Father and Son have put into motion. Baptism and teaching are the formula, but the whole purpose indeed is "holiness" (coming into communion with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for eternity).
C.S.Munnings
I appreciate the regarding obedience and the reasons that some may have a hard time with the concept. Yet if we consider what the text says then I'm not sure where the resistence is coming from. Jesus says,"... teaching them to obey all things that I have commande you." The one we are to obey is Jesus. No one else is mentioned, nor did I mention anyone else. In fact, if the Church and her denominatins truly obeyed Jesus, I don't think we would have experienced the scandals that we have over the past few centuries.
Of course to obey means that we give up our will and our control. And I think that's the problem-our problem- even to the point where we don't even want to talk about obeying Jesus.
We want Jesus in a box...much like a jack-in-the- box. We want to be able to take him out and play with him, and let him make us feel good about everything, but we don't want to see all of him. And when we're done, we want to be able to push him away and close the lid.
Pr.del in Ia
Some good sermons going to come out of this one. Go make disciples of all nations..... is a very inclusive statement, calling us to go beyond our cultures and "comfort zones." I'm pondering the notion of "disciples." I know a lot of churches evangelize...bringing folks in. I wonder, once folks are brought in, baptized and sanctified, how many are given the work of discipling? Feeding the poor, demanding justice and freedom to the oppressed, caring for the sick (at heart and body), sharing the good news of a loving God? Is this a command by Christ to be more assertive about transforming this world for Christ?
Peace and Joy,
Francis
Dear Preacher in Ks.
At my last church we started a blended service and kept a traditional service. (Fair warning: You would have thought I was introducing snake-handling, given the upset by some of the traditionalists.) This was a small Episcopal church, but the new service helped us triple in size. We used hymns from "Marantha" and other praise sources, plus some from our hymnal. We used some drama, less formal preaching, etc. and tried to really kick Sunday School up a notch. One of the best things we did was print out the whole service, which really helped new people who weren't trained in the "Prayer Book Shuffle". (Start on page 355, now find an "s" hymn, back to the prayer book, now look up a psalm, etc., etc.) Probably the single best thing we did was bring the kids into the whole service once a month and call it "kids' Sunday" -- everyone else was welcome, but the service was short, the music was the kids' favorite, the kids read, ushered, there was a short kids' sermon, and there was a theme with a small token for each kid related to the theme. Kids brought their friends to this, and those kids brought their parents next time.
That's about it. May God bless you as you work to reach more people.
HW in HI
The great commission is a transformation. A new creation. Yet we STILL struggle with wanting what another poster suggested, to make the world conform to our wishes. That hit me right where I live. Anyone who's attempted to lead a church into transformation knows what I mean.
Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, and so he must therefore have authority over creation. But his is a new creation - in relationships and in our attitudes towards God's creation on earth. If we truly baptized in Christ's name (vs. just saying we ought to) all nations, it means that we truly accept and respect each other. The hard part for me is accepting and respecting dis-respectful people or tolerating the in-tolerant. This is where obedience comes in for me - I must learn over and over to trust God and God's judgment, not my own.
Children's sermon - I emphasize the relationship, the PERSONal aspect of the persons of the Trinity. I ask a church member to stand up (arranged ahead of time, of course) and I ask other family or friend relationships to say who so-and-so is. One might say, "She is my mother," another might say, "She is my friend," and another might say, "She is my wife." or, if it's a man, then "he." I act confused and get the kids to explain it to me. One person, three relationships. I tell them God is the same way, one person who relates to us in different ways. Creator (father), Redeemer (Son), Sustainer (Holy Spirit). I've been less successful with non-human images. To give proper credit, I got the idea out of a book, "Children's Object Lessons."
AND, incidentally, a Christian ed. expert recently posted on our conference website that object lessons aren't always the best. Children often don't understand symbolism or allegory. As if Children's Sermons weren't hard enough. (Let's face it, don't the adults sometimes seem to enjoy the entertainment factor more than the kids seem to learn?)
Sorry so long - took yesterday off & I'm playing catch-up today!
Sally in GA
They all worshiped even though some of them doubted. "I do believe; help my unbelief." This seems to foreshadow that obedience that Jesus includes in the Great Commission. It's akin to commitment to marriage even when you're upset with your spouse. Because God has decided for us in Christ, we can obey even when we doubt.
Just some meandering thoughts.
Mark in OH
We presbyterians emphasize the trinity- a lot. In fact, there's a little song going around, sung to the tune of The Battle hymn of the Republic.
I'm so glad I'm Presbyterian
So empatically Trinitarian
Our theological direction is from God to man
John Knox keeps marching on
On the subscription part of DPS, there is an excellent sermon on the Trinity about how God exists in perfect relationship(s).In the sermon, there is a great quote from Madeline L'Engle "talking about the Holy Trinity is attempting to talk about God's wholeness to a human race that only knows what it is to be fragmmented and broken up"
I'm working on the idea that the Trinity at least starts us to thinking about the wholeness of God, that one name (even the name that is above all other names) can not exhaust the possibility of God (I think Isaac Asimov has short story somewhere called "The Nine Billion Names of God)
Quantum physicists maintain that the universe consists of relationships that often seem to defy our little ideas of time and space. Even what we call empty space is not empty, but filled with energy fields, which are connected to each other. If the very basis for creation is relationship, shouldn't God be able to model that for us.
I'm also thinking about the idea of name, the name we are given in Baptism. When we baptize a child, we always use the child's full name. Maybe Jesus' command to us the trinitarian formula has something to do with us understanding (as far as is humanly possible) God's whole name
Just some thoughts
RevGilmer in texarkana
Sally,
I don't think I'm shy... and I appreciate you and others work...
unfortunately, by the time I enter here... it's usually the end of the week and I am truly desperate... although it works for me to enter here late Saturday night and add my kudos of your combined wisdom... my "folks" are blessed because of all of you... and even if you don't sign your full name, I assure you I give you credit as I'm able... something like...
"My new friend, "Sally" an internet pal from Georgia who gets together with me every week to talk about the weeks scripture... shares the following..."
Or words to that affect. Now, if you all would leave your website or email address we could REALLY give you credit for your wisdom....
Thanks...
Blessings,
Pulpitt in ND
To Preacher in KS who is needing a blended service. This may or may not help you. I pastor a tiny, tiny church and we have need of music other than in our UM hymnals. The supplement hymnals have some great songs. Also using a trio or a quartet or even an duet is a way to blend easily. If you are familiar with the Taize music, that works wonderfully for a somewhat blended service. This may not, at all be what you are looking to do, but it does add that needed variety and music that touches the heart. Blessings to you! lp in CO
'Twas said: "I ask a church member to stand up (arranged ahead of time, of course) and I ask other family or friend relationships to say who so-and-so is. One might say, "She is my mother," another might say, "She is my friend," and another might say, "She is my wife." or, if it's a man, then "he." I act confused and get the kids to explain it to me. One person, three relationships. I tell them God is the same way, one person who relates to us in different ways. Creator (father), Redeemer (Son), Sustainer (Holy Spirit)."
Heresy, rank heresy! (This is modalism, if memory serves.) Which, of course, I have also preached.... ;-)
Why do we spend so much time trying to explain and "answer" the "riddle" of the Trinity? It ISN'T a riddle -- it's a mystery -- that means there is NO answer for us to get; there is a mystery for us to be in awe of. God is Triune. Period. There isn't anything like God. God isn't like H20, or shamrocks, or the Italian flag, or anything else!
OK ... got that off my chest. Now, how am I going to explain the Trinity ....
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS -- when did they move KS to NC?
lp in CO
Maybe I'm just naive... but I figure if folks are desperate enough to find their way on to this site... I'm just as happy to get their "junk" mail... I delete it... even skipping the "warning" that I haven't read this "very important message." I guess, I also don't say much on this site that I'm not willing to say to my folks here - nor would I be embarrased if "you all" knew it was me that said it, or asked a stupid question. So, anonymity is not a question for me... but then again... we in the midwest are sometimes maybe too trusting... I guess I'll risk it...
Thanks for all the sharing...
pulpitt in ND
Question: Why is there no account of the ascension in Matthew's (or John's for that matter) Gospel? Didn't people read/hear the story and say, "So, he was crucified, he rose from the dead, and gave this commission thing...then what? Where is he? Can I meet him? What's the deal?" No doubt, the oral traditions probably reached most people before the written, and the ascension story would have been related that way, but why did Matthew chose not to include it here? It doesn't strike me as an expendible element of the story.
I don't know if this can relate at all to the Trinity, Peace with Justice, or Memorial Day, but is there a sermon here? Or is it just one of those Bible things that make you go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..."?
Pastor Andy
I've gained a lot from this site for many months, but am writing for the first time. I am especially drawn to one aspect of this text and wonder if anyone else is thinking about this...Verse 17 says "but some doubted" but the Greek does not say "some" it says "but they doubted" That puts a whole new perspective on our doubts, if the eleven still had them at this point!
Thanks..Karen in IN
For the language experts: Jesus says to baptize "in the name of", not "in the names of". Is the original word translated "name" also singular? "Name" and "word" refer to the very nature of the thing referenced -- it reads to me that Jesus is talking about a Singularity as much as a Trinity. A plain-language interpretation would be "Give them the Good News about all the ways God loves them."
thanks, pwe/ny
How do we motivate our congregations to follow the commandment to go into the world? This message seems to go in one ear and out the other. I have tried to educate the congregation to share their faith. We even spent a whole summer using video tape and a book, "Sharing Our Faith." I would like to know who promoted the idea that our faith is a private thing and we should not talk about it with others. Whoever started that idea did a great deal of damage. Sharing of faith - isn't that something we hired the pastor to do? They pray on our behalf, they give on our behalf, they do evangelism on our behalf and they study on our behalf. All we need to do is show up (go to) at church on Sunday morning and be entertained for an hour or so, then we can go back to doing our own thing. So, how do we get these people on fire for God, so that they will want to "GO and make disciples?" They use the excuse against foreign mission work stating so much needs done at home. Well, they don't do it at home either. PH in OH
The Great Commission speaks more clearly in these days with the rise of Adult Baptisms. It seems to me that our mandate as a church is to prepare those who thirst to receive the water of life. If we do this well, as a congregation, we will be fulfilling the commission. We need to find ways to invite and to involve our laity in preparing others for baptism, confirmation (or membership) in the Body of Christ. Our task is to draw them into the mystery of our redemption through the Holy and Blessed Trinity.
tom in ga
Arithmetic is being able to count up to twenty without taking off your shoes. -- Mickey Mouse
Math is doing arithmetic with numbers higher than twenty.
Spelling is talking with letters put together in a way that everyone knows what they mean.
Algebra is doing arithmetic with letters put together in a way that no one knows what they mean.
David in NC
The Doctrine of the Trinity is a way that Theologians have been using Algebra to talk about God.
David in NC
for KS in NC
My thoughts on the wholeness/unity of the Trinity come from a book by Shirley Guthrie "Always Being Reformed." Yes, he writes from a Presbyterian-reformed perspective. Still, it is the best book on the Trinity I have read. One thing he lifts up is that all of God is involved in every action of the Trinity, that it really is a false distinction to say that the Spirit does this, or that Christ does this, or that the creator God does this. He gives as an example from Scripture- creation. In beginning God created the heavens and the earth-All things came into being through him (Christ)- the spirit (hebrew ruach)was hovering over the waters- oh, and let us create. "Opera trinitatis ad extra indivisa sunt- The works of the Trinity are indivisible"
Guthrie also gives us a neat idea of a new way to think about the Trinity that he takes from the Eastern Orhodox tradition. The word he uses is perichoresis (try to say that five times fast!)which means "dancing around" It comes from John of Damascus (eight century). Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are like three dancers,holding hands, dancing around toghether in joyful freedom. Guthrie goes on to say that God in himself is God in community. "The oneness of God is not the oneness of a self-contained individual; it is the unity of a community of persons.And personal means by definition interpersonal: one cannot be truly personal alone,but only in relation to other persons. Such is the unity and personal character of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are not three independent persons who get together to form a club (or a dance group). They are what they are only in relationship to each other. Each exists only in this relationship and would not exist apart from it.Father, Son, and Holy Spirit live only in and with and through one another, eternally united in mutual love and shared purpose"
RevGilmer in texarkana
Apologies in advance if this is confused; I'm trying to study quickly - I've got a funeral in about an hour!
Anyways, I'm having a focus problem. Trinity, creation (Genesis), GO make disciples, or what. Usually I'd try to incorporate all threads into one but nothing is specifically coming to me.
As to motivating a congregation: whew! I hear you! And I must acknowledge that my folks have very real health problems, a very real outlook on life that "hires out" its spirituality, or whatever. Take heart (and I have to remind myself of this) - by most accounts, it's rare that a church turns around in less than four years. And patience isn't one of my strong points.
Sally in GA
To the question on Modalism that Eric in KS mentioned: Can we avoid the philosophical problem by considering the Trinity as more of a experiential issue? Have we not experienced God in the three ways--in creation, in Jesus, and Presense with us? It helps me to think in terms of ways we experience God rather than in how God exists or how God is revealed. I don't know if that solves the heresy problem or not. bc n MO
I struggle with preaching about the "Trinity" because the Trinity is so beyond comprehension. It is almost as futile as systematic theology. One can never fit God into one system.
I like what Jurgan Moltmann writes about the Trinity being an open "system" that takes creation into Itself. If that is that case, then we can not talk about the Trinity without including ourselves, our realtion and our place in the system.
"Baptize in the name (identity) of the Father, Son, (+) and Holy Spirit.
Pr.del in Ia
Sally.....no big deal whether you brought up the name signing or not. I do when I have lots of time and don't sometime. It is good to share. If you want to know who someone is you can ask and I think most of us would respond to your(or anyone's) request. I put the comment about the apple and didn't sign it...I'm the old priest in Iowa
My only point about the signing is... because being the "procrastinator I am" by the time I check the site... it's too late to expect someone to respond. It's my fault... not anyone elses... still, the good stuff is worthy of sharing... I just like giving credit for these jewels in the rough...
Sign if you will or won't... some are extraverts... some are introverts... all created in God's image...
Now... "if the foot would say to the hand..."
;?)
With grins,
pulpitt in ND (You know where to find me) ;?)
To RevGilmer -- thanks for the Guthrie reference. Actually I had lunch today with a Presbyterian pastor friend and she mentioned the same book to me. Thanks for the insights from it.
And to Eric in KS -- thanks for making me laugh!! KS truly is a long ways from NC!! Would you prefer that I change my signature???
Take care and God bless
KS in NC
I have been thinking about the word GO, too. I saw a bumper sticker recently which read, "Stay At Home Mom? I'm never home." I believe it was Erma Bombeck who observed that parents build great homes for their children to live in. We are a culture on the go. How many times did all of us climb behind the wheels of our cars this week? The real question is, how many of us go anywhere with the sense of being sent into the world to model Christ's ongoing presence, or to help persons discover that presence for themselves? And how do you make disciples when you can't find anyone home? Good luck. In our community a large percentage of persons play golf on Sunday mornings. I keep telling my congregation that we need to have an early tent service on Sunday mornings "on the green." We could sing "Holy, Holy, Holy," and "There is A Green Hill Far Away." Enough already. A few points I need to make in my sermon this week are: a commission means "something ENTRUSTED to be done"...that most of us are more comfortable with the Great Commandment than the Great Commission and that's OUR problem...that the Great Commission is the identity of the church (isn't that why we offer Sunday school and form fellowship groups...not to keep the love of Jesus In our church and keep others out, but to let the love of Jesus OUT so that others come IN)...that God's good creation continues to cry out for restoration...that making disciples is easy when you truly love people. Have a great weekend! revdlk in Nebraska
TN Mack's comment... "I am using both this passage and the Corinthian passage. Both have Benedictory style . I wonder if the reason that our people never get a clear understanding of trinitarian theology is that the only time it is mention is either in affirmations of faith or in the benediction. TN Mack"
... made me wonder if the "lectionary folks" took into account the MASS exodus that takes place in many churches beginning this weekend and continuing over the summer months...
I know OUR FLOCK scatters... we're probably the only ones with that problem eh? :?)
pulpitt in ND
Pr.del in Ia
Your comment reminds me of the great Carl Jung whose father was a minister in the reformed tradition. It was time for young Carl to be confirmed and his father promised that on such and such a date they would discuss the meaning of the Trinity. Carl couldn't wait. He was filled with expectation when his father finally began to speak. His dad told the class that the Doctrine of the Trinity was just beyond comment, that there was nothing he could really say, that the Trinity was simply incomprehensible. It was this very discussion that brought young Carl to recognize that the symbols of the Christian faith were empty and that they were beyond saving, and he began to move toward an understanding of the Unconscious where a whole new understandings of symbols would be born through dreams, etc.
tom in ga
I have been trying to pull together the following thoughts - perhaps typing them will help.
Our churches - the church I pastor - seem to operate on the "If we build it - they will come" mentality. This is not found in scripture, but in an excellent hollywood production Field of Dreams.
I want to tie in the concept of Hospitals as opposed to M*A*S*H (mobile armed surgical hospitals) from the Korean War as portrayed in the tv series by the same name. It seems to me that Christ intended for us to be MASH units and we have constructed Memorial Hospitals for sinners instead.
Thanks for letting me ramble a bit.
Boo Radley
Oops - it's Friday and I'm just now checking back. Yes, I accidentally did not sign my first entry this week, I usually do, I am Rachel. I am forgetful. I am a desperate preacher. And I can't seem to get excited about preaching trinity when I can preach GOING and making disciples. (My first entry was about Cynthia Hale's sermon on GOING.)
The Trinity to me is more of an experience than a doctrine, more taught by how we model our prayers in the congregation than by logic. Like Sally when I am asked to explain I usually use the relationship idea: I am mother, daughter, wife, sister. Last week a man leading the middle schol youth group was going to talk to them about the Holy Spirit, and they began to immediately tell him all about the Trinity. They had grasped it.
I really appreciate the tie-ins to Memorial Day, especially on the mass exodus and the thougts on going. Whatever gets us out there. If we are BEING the church even out there we should be sharing our faith naturally. REVDLK, i also love the idea of a tent on the golf course! To a southerner like me it is nice to know it doesn't get too cold to play golf in Nebraska. It helps to remind people to think about what excites them about their faith, to think about how God has been working or real in their lives. Once they grasp that, then they have something to share with others.
I am also a poor typist, so I think way more than I manage to type in here. It does at times make me shy.
blessings, peace, grace, and joy to you all,
rachel in TN/MS - and wishing myself I was at the lake
Actually, GOING and MAKING DISCIPLES has everything to do with the Trinity. If not for the mercy of God the Father, shown through Jesus Christ, there would be no reason for disciples, and I believe the Holy Spirit has to work in the hearts of people to create believers. Not so simple to work into a sermon, though. Still needs work, but that's my direction (unless the Spirit leads elsewhere).
Michelle
My theme: God is awesome, and you know it through the beauty of creation, the inspiration of the Spirit and the incarnation of the Word, so go make disciples. The title: "God is Awesome"
Thank you to the preacher who posted the M*A*S*H illustration. It includes Mem. Day and the GO theme.
Rachel: I went to an evangelism conference and our Bishop related a story of a church that gathered for worship at 11 AM one Sunday and, rather than having their usual service, had a quick prayer service and went knocking on doors. THOSE are the people we want to bring Christ to. Sounds like your tent on the green or "Holy, Holy, Holy" (cute)
And, this week is frustrating because I'm tired of peoples' excuses. I just need to pray to use this frustration constructively or I'll end up using the pulpit to vent!
"I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world."
Sally in GA
Forgive me as I think outside the boundries of the lectionary for a moment. I hope this might speak to you as it does to me.
Read Joshua 4, especially 4:6-7 ...In the future, when your children ask you, `What do these stones mean?'...These stones are to be a memorial to the people of Israel forever."
Jesus is asking in the great commission for us to, 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them 'in the name'(the possession and protection of)... 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Both are done in memorial. Both are to teach about crossing over into a new life under the protection and possession of a mighty God.
From Websters: commission- an authorization to preform certain duties or tasks.
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
I truly believe Matthew was thinking how to best reach this church of Jewish origin he ministered to. Why this whole great commission happened on a mountain,(where God could be found)also a traditional worship place that goes way back.
Do with this what you will. I just see a connection to the 12 stones and 12 disciples both having a story to tell. Memorials are only worth their weight when we tell the story of why they are important. When the story is lost or not told so is the memorial. A commission is a duty, we are expected to remember and tell the story of Jesus.
KB in Ks. .
I once went to a church that had the words "You are entering your mission field" above the exit doors. -
Maybe the answer to motivating our people is in making them aware that they are missionaries for Christ, in a hostile world - right where they live?
Preacher D in Canada
HELP!
We are looking for an older children's hymn about Samson. One of our parishioners vaguely remembers hearing one which has a line about a "jawbone of an ass"...is anyone familiar with it? We need it in time for VBS in about a month!
Thanks,
PA preachers
First to Pulpitt in ND et.al.
Some of us are located where all your folks GO. I serve in a tourist area along the rocky coast of maine. Our population goes from under 5,000 to over 50,000 for the 10 weeks or so of summer. The Gospel passage has some real power and calling for us. Our churches fill up now and we have lots of folks to bear witness to. We espouse a ministry of hospitality but it becomes challenged as the crowds inundate our little town.
Second, I do think the church does a very good job at this calling. As is noted above: "we pay the pastor to do that" is frequently heard. My sermon this week is entitled: "Is Our Discipleship Sinking?" This begs the question, does worship call us to serve or be entertained? In watching some of the mega church media preachers I believe they are advocating the latter!
Third, (Being a Trinitarian, I must have a three point message) The Gospel makes it clear that we ALL are called to the work of discipleship, with whomever, and wherever we find ourselves, whether we are sorrounded by 5 people or 50,000 people!
A W-G rocky coast Me
Responding to a comment by Revgilmore in texarcana: You say we baptize people using their full names, but actually, we ought to only use the first and middle name. According to a very wise professor at my seminary, we baptize into the whole church family, not the human family, and thus ought not use the surname (last name). Somehow that has stuck with me. Sorry to nitpick.
As for the Trinity, what was new this year for me was reading this familiar passage and realizing it contains very obvious trinitarian language. This is early in the Christian tradition. I'm sidestepping the trinity and focusing on the community of memory. There's a lot of memory in my congregation, and it's Memorial Day, after all.
mhc in pa
T0 A W-G rocky coast Me, (It's an Old Joke, all male language.)
Back in the days when the 3 point sermon was the norm a young seminary student asked his homiletics professor how many points a sermon should have. "At least one, son."
Sue in Cuba, KS
There is a link at "The Text This Week" site to a good sermon on this text by Mile Slaughter. My favorite quote from this text was:
I used to think that faith was intellectual certainty. It's not. It is an action. It is not wishful thinking. It's not thinking that if you have faith you'll win the lotto. It is acting on the directive of Jesus. Look at verse 16: "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. They worshiped Jesus even though some of them doubted. Faith is acting on the directive of Jesus at any given time in spite of what I feel, think or believe. - Mike Slaughter
I'm not sure how Trinity connects with this link between faith & doubt, but here's what I have so far - God the Father lovingly & warmly receives our trusting obedience, God the Son is found to be present with us when our doubts overwhelm us (remember the calming of the sea?), and God the Holy Spirit is the "nudger," moving us to GO, acting out our faith even as we struggle with uncertainty. I think that's really what the Moravians were trying to tell John Wesley when the told him "Preach faith until you have it." (see the previous discussion. The ACT of preaching the faith is in itself an act of faith, in spite of our doubting. The Great Commission not only wins new converts to Christ. It is an act of faith which strengthens the very human church which carries the act out. Ken in WV
Hi everyone!
My formal "ministry" is as an oncall chaplain in a hospital. My informal ministry is as a social worker. I am most likely to check this site on the weekends that I preach in the hospital chapel, so I'm not here every week. And I am so much in awe of the wisdom and knowledge that I read when I AM here (& being one of those "introverts" noted elsewhere), that sometimes I am hesitant about adding my 2-cents worth. (I do ususally sign, though.) I was ordained in the UMC in 1985, but learned some things about myself after that which made it impossible for me to stay. I know that I am ordained by God, regardless of my relationship to the UMC, and because I am part of such a wonderful faith community I feel some defensiveness stirring in me this evening as I read the complaints by preachers about unmotivated parishioners. I know that when I was in the pulpit every week, and had my own congregations, (as I look back) I did 'way too much scolding and not nearly enough affirming and encouraging. I think that when we're full time pastors, maybe we expect our people to have the same level of commitment that we have. The people with whom I worship and serve have inspiring levels of faith and commitment, and they work full-time jobs (some of which would be considered "ministries," "discipleship," "service') out there among the alien (that is, those who don't know Christ) and/or even those cast-out kind of people for whom Jesus's associations got him criticized and crucified. My point here is to say that my qualification for what I'm saying is that I live on both sides of that line that separates clery & laity, to ask you to look more carefully & prayerfully at the faith and ministries and lives of the people you lead, and perhaps "to hear" (obey) where God is working when you're not looking.
I hope I'm not falling back into my old pattern of scolding. My pastor has been such an inspirational model of loving the people, that I would not want to dishonor him by doing that. At the same time, I need to speak in defense of those busy "going going going" people in your congregations that you think are lazy or uncommitted or unfaithful.
May God redeem any offense my words may cause.
Grace and peace,
Janice in Ks
A W-G from the Rocky Coast of Maine . . . This is RevMom from Central Maine and you know who I am! (Mechuwana!) Thank you for your post re: do we come to church to be sent out into the world or to be entertained for an hour. Good leading idea! I have been fumbling as to where to take this week's text . . . (please God!) . . . recently at a PPRC meeting one key lay leader type boldly said that she wanted sermons that left her feeling "warm and fuzzy" because, after all, she worked so hard for the church already. My tongue was bloody from biting it so hard! So . . . my sermon may be "The Price of Admission" (or something a little softer).
Thanks!
RevMom in Central Maine
Eric in KS(not yet in NC),
My hazy memory of modalism's problem was it said God was first Father, then became Son, and later was Spirit, one at a time. At family reunions we don't take turns talking. I'm father, son, husband, uncle, brother-in-law all at once. Paul said he tried to be all things to all people so that by all means he could win some. He took Peter to task for being Gentile while with gentiles and turning Jewish when Jews came to call, one thing at a time. Could that relate?
I do agree with Garrison Kellior who said it's not a problem but a mystery. Ah, divine mystery! Bring it on. Make me wonder!
David in NC(be looking for some wind-blown Kansans)
I loved your algebra "non-explanation" for the Trinity, but Mickey Mouse could never count to twenty. His hands (and I assume his feet) have only four digits each(16 in all?). Still, I think I will use it. O.K.? tom in TN(USA)
Janice in KS -- I appreciated your post, but we should beware of the idea that us clergy are more committed than layfolks. After all, we get paid to go to church! -- Mike in Maryland
I guess since it is Saturday I should have my sermon written, but I have a full time job, other than my two churches, and usually don't start writing until Saturday, after you folks have inspired me.
There is a lot of good stuff out there. Thanks KB in Ks and Ken in WV, your posts triggered something.
I am thinking along the lines of "Go to the mountain" It seems God has given all of us mountains to climb. My mountain is working a full time job, pastoring two churches, going to night school, and raising a family. There are still shut-ins that need to be visited and funerals on top of all that.
To be God's disciple, we are called to step out of the boat and get our feet wet for Christ. If we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains.
God Bless all of you!
Harrell in Texas
Hi to all, I just returned from the Homeletics meeting in Chicago which was verry good!
I am returning to the waiting for the Spirit and then the recieving of the Spirit and now going with the Spirit. I know that in all the hub bub of ending sunday school, baptisms that much of the power of these events was lost on my congregation. I am going to use the shoe story (many thanks). This one has to be short because of memorial day.
I am lighting candles in honor and memory of: those African Americans, Asians, and Native Americans that served and one for those who remained behind and served on the home front as farmers, machinists etc.
I have heard of the missionary field signs before but forgot about them so I am making them for the doors. Trinty can wait. Maybe for a series.
Sally I have put similiar messages on about signing. it really helps me keep threads and people together. I have posted my email and not gotten many spams at all. (for this my mailbox is happy) I delight in this Holy place where discussion is open and we are the body of Christ from different generation and denominations.
Nancy-Wi
Mike in Maryland,
Thanks for your response. It's what I was trying to say: that lay folk have OTHER 40-hr/wk jobs that they do, in ADDITION to whatever they do in the church; AND that while they're out there in those 40-hr jobs (& in their neighborhoods and families and other involvements) they are still loving Jesus and trying to live the best they know how. I don't think I said very well what I intended to say. And I'm aware that something has been stirred up in me, that I don't yet fully understand. I DO know that I ache for that "key lay leader type" who is asking her pastor for some affirmation and encouragement.
If any of you who posted on this passage in the previous discussion are still around, let me say that it was a very good discussion. I'm 'way behind schedule in getting a sermon for tomorrow, but right now I'm liking the things that were said in 1999 about the importance of experience of the trinity and the need to worship instead of explain the Trinity.
Thank you all for your tolerance and patience through my venting.
Grace and peace,
Janice in Ks
David in NC, That is so great! I plan to use that tomorrow as a spring board. Also, Eric in KS, you stated the whole MYSTERY of the Trinity so beautifully. Yes! Yes! We western minded folk are so intent in explaining away the unexplainable. Again, Eric, let me tell you what an inspiration you have been on this site--personally and professionally. Blessings! lp in CO
Janice: your words didn't offend me! I appreciate the extra accountability. I use this site to vent sometimes, myself - and I've seen the discouragement that can come from scolding from the pulpit. I notice that my friend-by-proxy, Laron Hall, puts things in "I" and "we" language rather than "you" or "he/she/it" language when holding people accountable, unless it's an obvious, good-natured joke.
I'm done, but I thought I'd check back one more time to see if there were any last-minute inspiration.
I've got an almost all-DPS sermon this week - thank you! I focused on praise and let the subcategories speak to praise.
My sermon is simple: God is awesome (Ps. 8), shown in Creation, our Redemption, and Sustaining. But sometimes we have a take-take-take relationship with a God who gives (illustration: The Giving Tree), or "I'll take the salvation, but don't ask me to do much more than behave myself." (from OT page) Our image of God is sometimes what we have to lay down (will tell about how a brother in our probationers' group several years back did a profound devotion about how maybe what we need to lay down to pick up Jesus' cross is our image of God) - and how we resist doing that because, after all, our image of God is correct.
The thing is - God is awesome - shown in three persons and even still we can't understand - the quote from Einstein on the OT page (I think). In other words, we're NOT right about our image of God. Or, maybe better said, we are right about our image of God, but it comes nowhere close to telling God's whole picture.
And a charge to share not just IN that awesomeness, but share OF that awesomeness. In the charge, Boo Radley's M*A*S*H illustration.
The children will give out Hershey's kisses with the quote from II Cor ("greet each other with a holy kiss") and the name of our church and worship times to the congregation for them to give to someone this week as a witness.
Sally in GA
I've decided not to focus on the Trinity but on the Great Commission. (I dealt with the Trinity during our Easter season catechism sermon series.)
We've not done very well in acting on the Great Commission, so it's not a very gentle sermon....
You can find it at:
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/trinity-rcl-a-2002.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Greetings all you other desperate preachers. By now you are probably all done, but I am in Hawaii and many hours behind you. Thanks for the ongoing semiweekly (for me) fellowship.
I have been cogitating on these five verses, aware that as a military chaplain, my flock will definately have memorial day on their mind.
I have been thinking about the three words, "but some doubted" and how they are practically ignored by the author. Jesus goes on to remind them that all authority on heaven and on earth has been given to him. Is it to remind them of their duty in spite of their doubts or are they words of assurance to even the doubters to give them strength?
Whatever they are, they are told to go (in spite of their doubts and fears) and so they do such that tradition tells us only one of the eleven remaining did not die a violent death.
It reminds me that whatever their doubts going into battle, there are no atheists in foxholes.
I am going to organize this, I think, into the format of an operations order
paragraph one: situation (v.18b)
paragraph two:mission (v.19a)
paragraph three: execution (v.19b-20a)
paragraph four:service and support:see paragraph five
paragraph five:command and signal [tell the location of the commander in battle] (v. 20b)
I know this has limited application outside a military audience, but it seems appropriate for memorial day weekend.
Military or not, I seems our marching orders are very clear.
Thanks for helping me gather my thoughts. I hadn't intended to outline it when I started writing, but it suddenly became clear. [I must have had a ghost writer]
Chaplain B
