My first-time comment is coming up...up from "Down Under". It seems to me
that one of the recurring themes coming through recent lectionary readings is that of the
"absentee" Lord. We have a God who seems to be in a far country, on a long
journey somewhere, taking his time arriving, hiding in the darkness. This makes walking by
sight virtually impossible. Only by faith do we see His fingerprints and footprints all
over the place and even then we must often fail to recognise Him. "Lord when did we
see you thirsty? I see a connection with the day of Ascension, when the disciples were
told to stop gazing into the sky but to get on about their business. Yes, we are warned to
be watchful, to be ready for the return of the Lord, but I see this parable as saying that
we do that best with our eyes down rather than up and that it is "the least"
that He will come to us each and every day. Wok of Qld
Does anyone know something about the work of a shepherd in biblical times? It may not
be that important, but I would like to understand why a shepherd would need to separate
the sheep from the goats. How did they get mixed up to begin with? Was this an everyday
event? Or just at the end of a certain season perhaps? Thanks! K in SC
From a bible study on the websit of St. Athanasius Orthodox Church, Isla Vista, Calif:
In ancient cultures, sheep and goats were raised together (and still are today in some
parts of the world) since both need grazing and they eat more or less the same thing. Yet
sheep and goats are quite different. Goats were generally dark in color and sheep
generally white. Goats are able to cope with mountains and rocks, but sheep prefer the
flatter valleys. Goats will eat the leaves off trees, whereas sheep prefer grass. Goats
graze all day while sheep lie down in the shade during the heat of the day. Goats were
less popular than sheep because goats are destructive, grazing closer to the ground and
destroying pasture. Goats also have a more stubborn, less pleasant disposition. It was the
"scapegoat" that took the sins of the people to the wilderness on the Day of
Atonement (Leviticus 16:22). On the other hand, a sheep was preferred in many sacrificial
offerings over a goat.
Both sheep and goats produced benefits for their owners. Sheep produced wool for
clothing, milk for food and reproduced rapidly. Goats also produced milk (3 quarts per
day) plus hair for a sack cloth tent covering and skin for leather. Goat meat was not as
tasty as lamb, however. For a shepherd who has raised both sheep and goats separating them
is easy.
===================
From a bible study on the website of Metropolitan Baptist Church, Washington, DC:
During the evening the shepherd separated his sheep from the goats. Quite naturally,
there is a practical reason for this. The animals were separated based on their
temperaments. Goats naturally seek shelter when it is available and do not like to get
wet. Goats are less tolerant of wet cold condition and as a result, can easily become
sick. To protect the goats from the elements, shepherds place goats in open sheds or in
artificial shelters. On the other hand, the sheep prefers the comfort of the open field
and the open air. They love to graze in the clover and they love the open spaces of the
sheep walk or pasture. The disciples readily understood the picturesque language because
the shepherds in the land separated their flocks every evening as they returned to the
sheepcote (Ezek. 34:17). At twilight the shepherds stand at the gate to the sheepfold and
tap their rods on the ground. The sheep go to the right and the goats to the left.
===================
Hope that helps....
Blessings, Eric in KS
It's still early in the process, but here goes. Sometimes I think when we hear this
text we get stuck thinking about who will be the sheep and who will be the goats on the
day of judgement. And yet I think there is a deeper message here, given that this lesson
is chosen for Christ the King Sunday. Jesus is identifying himself as one of the
vulnerable. That is what his "kingship" is all about. Therefore, as he is
judging the nations, as it says in the beginning, he will be looking for those who have
treated "members of his family" verse 25:50 kindly. What that means for
us--members of Christ's body--is that our servanthood should look like Jesus' servanthood.
That is the challenge for Christians listening to this text--not whether or not they will
be saved sheep--that is a given. But, are we in fact letting ourselves become
vulnerable--as Jesus did--in order to bear the gospel to those most needing to hear it?
Are we, like Christ, willing to encounter people in their pain and sorrow, their hungering
and thirsting as sisters and brothers? Or do we not risk becoming vulnerable ourselves and
instead give our "charity" to the poor and those "less fortunate" than
us. Maybe this Scripture is inviting us to learn how to be vulnerable with each other in
the Christian community, being Christ-like to one another, so we might then open ourselves
to others too. GB in MI
Thanks to KinSC for the question about the shepherd, sheep and goats. And also for the
many responses which are very interesting. I had never thought much about the question,
but now that it has been raised I find it very meaningful as well as the responses.
Thanks. Bob in Jersey City, New Jersey
A poem:
I was hungry -- and you formed a humanities club and discussed my hunger. I was
imprisoned and you crept off quietly to your chapel and prayed for my release. I was
naked, and in your mind you debated the morality of my appearance. I was sick, and you
knelt and thanked God for your health. I was homeless, and you preached to me of the
spiritual shelter of the love of God. I was lonely and you left me alone to pray for me.
You seem so holy; so close to God. But I am still very hungry, and lonely, and cold. --
Anonymous.
tom in ga
What is our vision of Christ's "kingship" today? In what way can we relate
the meaning of this feast to the everyday lives of the everyday denizens modern
Euro-American society (including all the other parts of the world where that society holds
sway)?
I have a collection of Jesus figurines -- not the sort you'd expect. I have two
"Jesus Action Figures" from different manufacturers; I have a bobble-head Jesus;
I have the Sacred Heart of Jesus nightlight; I have a sculpture of the Ascension in which
Jesus floats in a block of acrylic (this was a gift and started the rest of the
collection); I have Jesus enshrined (literally, with little plastic candles and flowers)
in an empty tequila bottle; I have the "Buddy Christ" figurine from the movie
"Dogma".... all of these, together with a Christ-the-King cross, a San Damiano
crucifix, and some other more traditional stuff, are images of Jesus which might
illustrate how Jesus is understood today -- are any of them helpful in placing Jesus the
King in modern context?
I don't know -- I think so, but I'm not sure -- but that's what I'm pondering and
working on.
I don't really care about sheep and goats, or who's which and where they go. That's
God's business and way to distant for me to worry about. I worry about now and whether the
people in my congregation have (right now) any sort of relationship with Jesus -- whether
as king and liege lord, or as "Buddy Christ", or ... whatever. That is, I think,
the more important question raised by this feast.
Thoughst a week ahead....
Blessings, Eric in KS
I wonder if the story about Jake Porter would preach with this text... 'Jake's' just
one of us
By Cathy Mong and Margo Rutledge Kissell / Cox News Service 11-01-02
WAVERLY, Ohio -- Coach Dave Frantz doesn't know what all the fuss is about. But
17-year-old Jake Porter has humbly become everybody's hero.
"I need a nap," the affable Jake, sporting his red and black Northwest High
School leather jacket, said Thursday after school, between a newspaper interview and
on-air talk show with a Cincinnati radio station.
Jake was born in Dayton with chromosomal fragile X syndrome," which causes mental
retardation. But that hasn't stopped Jake, who lists his favorite subject as track.
Why everyone loves Jake is he brings out the best in human nature, Frantz said, as was
demonstrated late in a football game Oct. 18 when the Waverly Tigers were ripping the
Northwest Mohawks 42-0.
"It all started the previous week," Frantz said, "when I suggested to
Coach (Derek) DeWitt that we let Jake 'take a knee' the last play."
That's when a player takes the football and falls to one knee to kill the ball and
allow the play to end.
"He said that would be great," Frantz said.
The visiting Mohawks arrived early and Coach DeWitt had a chance to meet Jake.
"Along comes my shadow," Frantz said, smiling and motioning to Jake, who
hangs out with Frantz during lunch and helps keep order during hall duty. "(DeWitt),
like everybody else Jake meets, took an instant liking to him."
With 5 seconds left in the game, Frantz substituted Jake as running back. "Coach
DeWitt said, 'Let him score, Coach. We're going to let him score.'"
I think it's a good story... although some say it's not. for Jake it worked, for his
team it worked, for his coach it worked, for his mom it worked... some argue that they
teach their "special gifted children" that they are normal, so just being in the
game would have been enough... I'll let you decide...
pulpitt in ND
I am struck by the fact that Christ is in cognito in our world. And that even the
righteous do not see. They are as suprised as the unrighteous at our Lord's comments. What
does this suggest regarding how we should live our lives and our discipleship?
I am also taken that these readings follow upon Judges which we read last week. If you
recall there was no king for Israel until Saul and before Saul there were twelve Judges
who followed YHWH, the King.
With this Gospel we return to Jesus as King renewing the relationship the Israelites
had in the Promised Land.
tom in ga
Knowing a bit about the behavior of goats (been raising them for 25 years) and a tiny
bit about sheep – I would suggest that Jesus was not using these two animals as a
metaphor but rather saying that the righteous and the sinners were separated like apples
and oranges. I may be wrong
The personalities of these two animals exhibit qualities that can be detrimental and/or
beneficial to the church. If everyone was a sheep they would remain in one spot and the
church would have never left Jerusalem. It is the goats that will adventure out into the
world looking for fresh pasture and forage. The analysis that Eric posted is erroneous
when it speaks of goats being over grazers. If not confined goats will range far and wide
as they browse. They prefer not to graze on grass much – preferring weeds and shrubs.
Sheep on the other hand are notorious over grazers who will eat grasses down to and even
including the roots. Before they move on. This is one of the big jobs of the shepherd is
to move the flock to “green pastures.” When flocked together the sheep will
follow the trail of the goats.
The people who are like sheep give stability to the church, while those who are like
goats give it life and vitality as they lead the church to :greener pastures. With only
goats the church would be capricious and with only sheep it would be stale and dead eating
dirt because there is no more grass.
I don't think that the Hebrew people valued sheep over goats. The Passover lamb is to
be a 1 year perfect male of the sheep or the goat. The day of atonement in Lev 16
describes the sacrifice of a goat as a sin offering for the people of Israel and the
“scapegoat” which carries the sins of the people to a desolate area. So the high
priest offers a bull, a goat, a ram as a burnt offering and a second goat is sent out with
the sins of the people. It sounds like all these animal are valued. Sheep for their wool
and to a small extent for their milk; goats for their milk and hair which is used to make
tents for people who live in desert areas. So one clothes you and the other feeds and
shelters you and both provide meat.
I'll close with Proverbs 27: 26-27
“The lambs are for thy clothing, and the goats are the price of the field*.
And thou shalt have goats' milk enough for thy food, for the food of thy household,
and for the maintenance for thy maidens.”
* “Price of the Field” is the name of a famous herd of Nubian dairy goats in
Oklahoma.
Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
Deke said, "The analysis that Eric posted is erroneous when it speaks of goats
being over grazers."
Thanks for the correction, Deke. I wondered about that. Having shepherds in the family,
I know that sheep are over-grazers and wondered whether goats could be any worse ... but
that's what the bible study said, and that's all I was doing -- quoting what I'd found.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Here's a thought - is the gospel saying it doesn't matter what church you go to or what
prayers you pray - or even whether you are Christian or Buddhist or Muslim or some other
stripe - salvation is found in relationships - so how you are with others is how you are
with God - A childlike understanding of the world says, "If people are starving, feed
them" - we try to tell a child it's more complicated than that, but is it?? Is this
why whores and tax collectors go into the kingdom ahead of us priestly types - because
they live amid needs and try to meet them - not only the basic human needs of food and
shelter and clothing, but also the basic human needs of love and dignity and respect?
I use this more frequently for funerals than anything else, and talk about what
'everyday sainthood' looks like - not the great spiritual athletes, just the gentle souls
who shed light into any corner they see by imagining that any person before them is Christ
in disguise, and serving that way -
Eric, without humans in the mix, managing or perhaps mismanaging wild sheep and goats
don't cause damage to the range. When we enter the mix with our desire for maximizing
production that things get out of balance.
That said, and back to the text, I still think that we tend to read scripture our own
prejudices. It was probably very common to run mixed herds and at shearing time it would
be necessary to separate the sheep from the goats. An interesting aside and perhaps the
herdsmen used this method to get the sheep into the shearing pens is the "judas
goat." It is common in west Texas sheep markets and in sheep slaughter houses to us a
goat to lead the sheep to the auction ring or to the killing floor. Sheep will follow a
goat, and the judas goat is trained to lead them through the gate and double back out
before it can close. Now that is a case of bad leadership. I pray that none of us is
guilty of the same.
My mind is just in a meandering mood, sorry. The real issue here is the general
judgement of the living and the dead and with that its accompaning doom to eternal
punishment or eternal life. The interesting thing to me is that neither the righteous or
the wicked are aware of their state. "Lord, when was it that I saw you..... is on
both their lips. If the righteous and the unrighteous are clueless then how is this
usefull to us? - first as Christians and then as preachers. Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
tom in ga, Your statement about Christ being in cognito reminded me of the popular song
from a few years ago by Joan Osborne, "What if God was one of us...just a stranger on
the bus trying to make his way home?" What indeed does it mean for us to be followers
of such a king, "hidden" in the least of those in our midst? It seems to me that
Christ meets us all most profoundly at the times of our deepest brokenness and
vulnerability. And that is when our sharing of the good news can also be most profound for
others too. GB in MI
Welcome back, Eric! Yes, Richard Donovan't site is helpful. Deke in TX, what a very
interesting piece of information about the use of a goat to lead the sheep. That will
preach somewhere, sometime--maybe not for this sermon but it will preach! Thanks. lp in CO
I'm wondering about that left hand the goats are placed on. Seems like I remember two
brothers asking Jesus to place them, one on his right hand and one on his left ... I doubt
either James or John was asking for the punishment promised to the goats. What changed?
When did the left hand go from being a place of lesser honor (but honor nonetheless) to
being a placement of condemnation? Is this even a worthwhile line of thought? Seems kind
of picky for practical-minded me.
Tom - love the poem. It fits in with my sermon yesterday; we're afraid to actaully
interact and so bury what God has given us. I think I'll continue on this theme.
See ya Wednesday! I'm taking tomorrow OFF!
Sally in GA
I need a job. Anyone got a reasonably well paying one for an Anglican priest with two
kids in college? 'Cause after I preach what I really want to preach on Sunday, I'm pretty
sure I'll be needing one.
Y'all know what I'm talking about -- I want to preach this lesson the way it ought to
be preached. A demand for commitment, for selflessness, for ministry by all ... no
wishy-washy come to church when the kids don't have soccer practice and the Chiefs aren't
playing... no I come to church to have my needs met... no I put $10 in the plate and
expect everything to be done for me... Either make and keep the commitment, in which case
you MAY get to stay with the sheep, or don't. If you don't ... leave. Go over there with
the goats and enjoy yourself.
That's what I want to preach. If I do, I need a job.
Blessings, Eric in KS
The first hearers of this parable were surprised that when we serve "the least of
these" they were serving the Son of Man, the Lord Jesus Christ. We aren't surprised
by this any more, even though we often have a hard time making that connection in our day
to day living. I think that, rather than calling for more commitment to the poor (I am
fortunate to be serving a very mission-oriented congregation), I think it might be more
helpful to give them some tools to keep this before them.
The phrase I think I will use, that they can remember and use when
explaining/witnessing to others, is "They were thinking of Jesus."
For example: Why did Fanny Crosby work among the poor? She was thinking of Jesus. How
could Mother Theresa work in such desperate conditions? She was thinking of Jesus. Why do
we feed the hungry at the homeless shelter, distribute blankets to those who won't come in
from the cold, and re-clothe those who don't know how to take care of their clothes? We
are thinking of Jesus.
Of course, I will have to have the congregation sing, "Jesus, The Very Thought Of
Thee" -- which, when tied to this scripture, may change some hearts to a more loving
attitude towards the neighbors God gives us to serve.
OLAS
Eric in KS,
You're getting dangerously close to saying that we can buy our salvation if only we are
committed enough... Is that really what you want to say?
I'm with the earlier poster (sorry, didn't check back to see who it was) who said, even
the righteous did not recognize Jesus in those they had served.
Still don't know how I'm going to preach it, though.
Michelle
Thanks to Eric in KS for your research on Sheep and Goats and the others who have
personal experience. I too looked a little bit...and one place I found the idea that
ancient people drew moral analogies from the habits of sheep and goats (basically, sheep
good, goats bad). But you all have me thinking that really Jesus isn't interested in any
of that. The point is, this is a VERY familiar scene. The listeners wouldn't have been
surprised by this business of separating the animals because they saw it all the time. In
fact, I'm starting to think it's part of the set up. As I keep reading this passage in the
context of what preceeds it, it does seem Jesus has set us up. He's used vivid apocalyptic
imagery, he's reminded us that we must be on the watch for we do not know the hour...we
must not "play while the cats away" for he may show up at any minute, and we are
responsible for what he has entrusted to our care and he will want a full report whenever
it is that he does finally return. And so now, we're not talking about masters and slaves
and bridesmaids anymore, we have the actualy Son of Man on the throne...HE'S BAAAACK and
he's separating people, which doesn't phase us at all because it's just like sheep and
goats, and we're ready to hear whether these people "gave the members of the
household their supplies at the proper time" (end of chapter 24), or"kept their
lamps lit," or multiplied the masters money (or whatever he entrusted to their care),
if they were READY when he arrived and Jesus pulls the rug out from under us and says,
actually folks, you see, the supplies, the lamps, the property/money... all those
analogies are best summed up by asking "how did you treat people who needed
help?...did you or didn't you?" and, another thing, I never really left, (surprise!)
'cause I'm them. And as the listeners are scratching their heads trying to figure out
exactly how the Son of Man is somehow these people in need, Jesus says to his disciples,
"by the way, I (The Son of Man) am about to be crucified." OH, that's how he's
the suffering, imprisoned, hungry people.... through the cross. SO... The King on the
throne tells the nations that if they want to share his kingdom, they have to help the
least-kingly people of all. As Wok of Qld said right off, "Yes, we are warned to be
watchful, to be ready for the return of the Lord, but I see this parable as saying that we
do that best with our eyes down rather than up ..." Just rambling... K in SC
In reference to Pulpitt in ND's account of Jake Porter above, I took our confirmation
class to the Willow Creek megachurch last weekend, and the speaker used this very story to
illustrate this passage. So others apparently have seen a connection as well. *BKW in IL
Asked Michelle, "You're getting dangerously close to saying that we can buy our
salvation if only we are committed enough... Is that really what you want to say?"
Nope, and I didn't. I said membership in the church requires commitment. Nothing about
salvation.
Blessings, Eric+
