Too bad no one evesdropped! I would love to know what the three
talked about. The past the future?
The "He" in verse 6 is a bit unclear. Peter didn't know what to say
or Jesus?
Lanuage experts. Is terrified in 6 really translated that way all
the time?
V.8 "they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus..." The
prophets of the past disappear. any significance here?
Early thoughts. Nancy-Wi
Nancy in WI -- according to Luke's version of this story, the
conversation was about Jesus' "departure" (in Greek "exodus")"which
he was to accomplish in Jerusalem." In other words, they were
discussing his upcoming suffering and death, and thus also
symbolizing that Jesus' predictions, made shortly before, were in
accordance with the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah). And who
would know better about an exodus than Moses? -- Mike in Maryland
It is always tempting to use the other gospels to fill out what the
first gospel writer - Mark - doesn't tell us. But I think Mark tells
us what Mark feels is important for us to know and has a perspective
that can stand alone. It appears that Mark doesn't feel it is
important for us to know what Jesus, Moses and Elijah talked about;
and it isn't important for Jesus to respond or explain anything to
the terrified disciples who are (at least Peter is) rambling on
about building dwellings on top of the mountain; and Mark's Jesus
doesn't want them to talk about it later either. What appears to be
important to Mark is what God does and says. God transfigures Jesus
and places him in the mysterious and miraculous presence of Elijah
and Moses and then declares Jesus the Beloved Son and challenges the
disciples ot listen to him. I think I might like to explore this
story as reminder that there are holy/transfiguring/transforming
moments in the midst of our human existence when God acts, speaks
and even directs our lives but our full participation in these holy
moments requires that we listen beyond the words and make ourselves
present to the moment despite our fears over what we are
experiencing that we don't understand. This holy moment isn't about
words or thinking - it is about listening and experiencing the
transfiguring power of God at work in Jesus...and, perhaps, us? I
suspect that we are surrounded by holy/transfiguring moments but we
are too busy talking, analyzing, organizing and staying "in control"
to notice that God is acting, speaking and guiding. Well ... its a
beginning anyway! Patty
Jesus led them up the mountain. So he must have wanted them their.
To see what they saw so they could tell what they saw after he has
risen from the dead. Because his very proud father told them to do
what his beloved son said for them to do. lol. Pastor Roger WV
Early thoughts - I have preached about our personal moments on the
mountain - those mountaintop experiences. So I was thinking (you can
hear the gears grinding), We have Moses, a symbol of the law,
Elijah, a symbol of the prophets and Jesus, a symbol of God's grace.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. He is also the fulfillment of
the prophecy. At the end, only Jesus is left - grace. We are
dependent on God's grace in the final analysis. What do you think?
And as always, "What does this story mean to the person in the pew?"
PH in OH
It is not very often that we have the opportunity to experience two
theophanies in one day: the Ascension of Elijah and the
Transfiguration of our Lord.
You mean to tell me you are going to break the communion with God by
openning your mouths and preaching on something that is beyond our
understanding instead of standing in awe!
tom in ga
I think you could relate the Gospel lesson to Communion in
this way -- in the Transfiguration Jesus is seen as completely pure
and clean -- his clothing is whiter than any bleach could make it,
which symbolizes this. In the Anglican "prayer of humble access"
there is lovely poetic language about Communion being our way to
share in that cleanliness and purity. The prayer includes these
words: "Grant us ..., gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of they
dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful
bodies may be made clean by his most body and our souls washed
through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in
him, and he in us." (The latter part of the petition could also be
used to comment on how the building of dwellings [tabernacles] for
Jesus is not to be done on the mountaintop as Peter wants to do, but
in our lives.)
Blessings, Eric in KS
I am struck by Barbara Brown Taylor's title for her sermon posted in
the members area "Thin Places". I am thinking that I will preach
about the times that we can palpaply feel the presence of the
Divine, places where we meet God - like on the mountaintop or when
Elijah is taken away on the chariot, and we move from that
experience with such a sense of awe that often words fail. And yet
we are never the same afterwards. Does anyone have any examples of
stories that are like that? Heather in ON
Early Monday thoughts... I was struck by Peter's loss for words.
Yet, true to form, he speaks anyway. But it is NOT a time for
speaking. In fact, the "voice" commands that all present LISTEN to
Him. Added to this is the command of Jesus to "tell no one" yet.
Perhaps disciples have been obeying the commands to not speak all
too well. We have indeed witnessed marvelous transformations in
people's lives, to include our own. And Christ is the one who is
transforming us through His death and resurrection. ARMY CH E
Just an imaginative thought. I hope you will not mind me taking
liberty with Mark's gospel by imagining what the conversation could
have been. Joyce in Jerusalem
Elijah: Look at these stubborn and fearful people. How do you get
these children to honor God?
Moses: And how do you teach them to love each other? God knows I
tried. I brought God’s law down from the mountain top. It is very
clear. The simple commandments tell them how to love and honor God
and how to live together in mutual love and respect.
But right after I told them how to live, they began complaining
about God and began to worship false idols.
The law told them not to betray or disrespect others. Yet, the
powerful continued to grasp for more wealth and power. Foolish
people they thought that would give them security. But for these
things they have to oppress the weak. Then the fighting starts. It
can lead to killing.
Elijah: Well, I warned them. I told King Ahab and the people not to
worship false idols. I challenged 450 prophets of Baal and they died
on the mountain top.
But today, people still worship the idols they create: power,
material possessions, and the comfort they bring. But they do not
receive satisfaction from them. NO!
How do we teach people to find the real thing -- joy in
relationships with God and with each other?
Jesus: God sent you Moses to give the law, and God sent you Elijah
and other prophets to warn the people of how they are harming
themselves.
Now God has sent ME.. I will live among these rebellious people for
awhile. I will love them and I will die for them. These men you see
before you, and those who follow them, will carry on my work of
reconciliation to God and humankind.
Moses: These men? Look, they are dumbstruck. They are frail. They
are confused.
Elijah: Good joke, Jesus. Now… tell us your real plan.
Jesus: I have no other plan.
Elijah: But how will they find the wisdom and the strength?
Jesus: Ahhh… I will be with them.
Two thoughts, one with a question. One: I recall a scene in the
movie "Crimson Tide" where Gene Hackman congradulates his new
executive officer of his sub, played by Denzel Washington, for
knowing not to talk in the last minutes before the sub submerges
under the ocean. The scene and the sounds were of beauty, it was a
moment meant for silence. Two: In Mark's baptism scene, only Jesus
notices the heavens open and only hear hears God say "you are my
beloved." Then at the transfiguration others hear the same thing.
The slow development of who Jesus is and his authority. I think this
is significant, but don't know what next. Kyle in Texas
Just a though early in the week: Mark may have known Peter, James
and John, but how did he know Elijah and Moses were there? Did they
wear "Hello, my name is..." badges? Did Jesus introduce them? This
raises the question; What did they see, and how did they know what
they saw? It seems as though theophanies must have another dimension
beside visual. Perhaps a touch of the mystical is present here. Or
could it be a simple as there were some graphic images of Elijah and
Moses? A W-G rocky coast Me.
Years ago my nephew (now a senior at seminary) was leaving sunday
school with a picture of this event. His mother (who knew she had
the smartest boy in the world) was trying to show off with him. "Who
is in the Picture there?" "Jesus." "But who is with Jesus?" Silence
"Who is with Jesus?" Silence. "Who is with Jesus, I know you know!"
(forcing the issue a bit) Finally the answer, blurted out, "Bert and
Ernie!" A little off subject, but funny. I always like to reference
the voice quoting Psalm 2 a "coronation" psalm. Divine stamp of
approval (even if the dialogue between Moses and Elijah, find the
plan on the crazy side.) God revealed God's plan first to Jesus (at
baptism) now to the most important disciples (transfiguration), and
finally to the whole crowd (crucifixion) when the army officer says,
Truly this was the Son of God! Former Army Chaplain Pbob in SC
Heather in ON:
You asked for experiences where we felt the presence of God and were
forever changed. The first one that came to mind was during a moment
of worship when I was singing background vocals on a song called
"Sweet Mercies." At some point during the song I was taken away in
worship to the point that when the song ended my sense of worship
continued. It was like I was in a different place.
The other experience is quite different.
I came to Christ at 29 (now nearly 47) and, as sometimes happens
with new Christians, I was confused about the meaning of a
particular Scripture: Mark 3:29. Somehow the Enemy got into my head
and, bringing up my past substance abuse, said, "How do you know
that you didn't commit such a sin when you were blind drunk, or
doing LSD?" I can even remember the intersection I was at while
struggling with that question late at night on the way home from
work. I literally cried out to God, "Lord, I can not believe you
would bring me this far only to drop me!"
The way home took me past my home church and I saw the Easter cross
standing erect in a side yard of the church. You know the type: A
wooden cross that you put spring flowers on for sunrise service. I
whipped my Camaro into the lot, went over to the cross and fell to
my knees, tearfully praying, "Lord, I don't know if there is such a
sin, but if there is and I did this thing, I can only trust that you
forgive me." At that moment, I felt such an incredible peace and
assurance. I know now that I was feeling the presence of the Holy
Spirit in a mighty way. It was as if the entire weight of the world
was lifted from my shoulders. I rose from that place, wiped the
tears from my eyes, and went Home.
Blessings, PastorBuzz in TN
I like Mark's quick event upon the mountain. The important part is
what God says, "Listen to him!" So what should the listen for? On
either side of this mountaintop experience, Jesus speaks of his
death and resurrection, and both times the disciples don't want to
listen or don't understand.
It is true for the disciples and true for us, that we long for
mountaintop experiences where we know Jesus fully. Yet Jesus is
saying that it is not there where Jesus is fully known, it is in his
suffering, his death, and his resurrection. Listen to him! Jesus
doesn't live on the mountain, his glory is in the valley of the
shadow of death, and there he has the victory.
RB in Canada
RB in Canada, I think that Jesus' glory and grace live both on the
mountain and in the vallies. In the rolling hills and in the desert
plains. Mountain top experiences are things that show us the gifts
of God that fill our hearts with such excitement and joy. The vally
experiences show us the God with us side in our pain and struggles.
Mountain top experiences: I am reminded of a line from Eddie Murphy
in one of his comedy bits... a fictious wife turns to Eddie after
years of marriage (or something like that) and says Eddie... what
have you done for me lately. As humans no matter how monumentous the
event, there seems to come a time where we need at least a refresher
course on the mountain. What a great time to think about things like
remember your baptism services and renewing your vows services. I
know a lot of people who after ten or twenty five or fifty years
renew their wedding vows. Not becasue they have forgotten but rather
, it is time to relight that mountain top experience of the past.
Kyle in TX
Joyce in Jerusalem: Thank you for your "liberties" if you will on
what may have transpired between Jesus, Elijah and Moses on that
mountaintop. I am going to be presenting the Lord's Prayer with
responses this Sunday and wondered how to work into it. I think your
contribution leads me to it beautifully. Would you allow me to use
your words?
Thank you all for our insights. This site brings me much
information, and I appreciate you all. Blessings, Betty in NY
RB in Canada, I think you are right on the mark. We can talk about
mountaintop experiences if we want to but that isn't what Mark is
pushing here. The One the disciples - and we too - are to listen to
is the One who talks about suffering, and crucifixion. It's the
perfect lead-in for the season of Lent.
RG also in Canada
I would agree with the both of you that for that moment, the work
was to be done in the vally, but Jesus would not have wanted them to
talk about it at all, maybe not even have given them the oppertunity
to be there if he had not wanted that to a part of his and therefore
God's full revelation in due time. The point of Mountain top
experiences are not to dismiss them but to use them as another means
for God's previenent grace to woo us into a full relationship with
the Holy. Kyle in TX
PH in OH -
I once preached a sermon using the translation that says "booths,"
although I can't find it since I heard it used in a reading years
ago. I pictured what Lucy sets up in the Charlie Brown comics,
"Psychological Advice 5 cents, the doctor is in." And recounted how
in my childlike way, I pictured these kinds of booths. Like lemonade
stands. Moses offered legal advice for a few denarii and Elijah
offered (I think) spiritual advice for 5 denarii. Then, I pondered
what Jesus' booth would look like.
It's this that offered me the springboard to explore the
transfiguration and the impact it had on Peter and James - and us.
Of course, at the end, Jesus' booth said, "grace - free." I guess
nowadays you could say "priceless" in imitation of the popular
commercial.
For what it's worth; you seem to be headed where I headed several
years ago.
Sally
tom in ga - I hear ya! I guess there's a little Peter in every
Preacher.
Sally
I joked to my congregation the week before last, when Jesus ordered
them not to tell anyone, "if that's what it takes to get the word
out, then, PLEASE! Don't tell anyone!" Here we have the next little
snippet, (v. 9) ... until after the Son of Man had risen from the
dead."
Thanks for your suggestions, Eric, and glad you're still with us!
:-)
I'm going to go with the idea that any new "dwelling" to be made is
for Christ in our heart. This is not a sappy, sentimental thing, but
a Sacramental act. In agreeing to receive the body and blood, we
agree to accept all that this means.
Sally
Eric - gee, that made it sound like you were dying, didn't it? I
MEAN, I'm glad you're still visiting us at the DPS.
I'm a little bummed out today, so I guess I'm getting a little
slappy in response. Time to take the afternoon off.
Sally, down and out in GA
Sally, the translation that refers to the dwellings as "booths" is
the Revised Standard Version. blessings, mikeinh
This being the last Sunday of Epiphany, I will be attempting to
celebrate Shrovetide with a joyous worship and burying the
"Alleluia" during worship. It will be like a Shrove Tuesday event on
Sunday.
The tie in to the transfiguration can be the transformation before
our eyes. Embracing the past and the gift that brings to the present
as it informs our future. The experience that Peter, James and John
shared must have provided a turning point for their spiritual
journeys. In the same way the shift in focus from Epiphany to Lent
has the power to transform us. The visual manifestation of Christ in
our world is mirrored in the transfiguration of Jesus and the vision
of Elijah and Moses (gifts from the Hebrew tradition upon which we
stand in awe.) A W-G rocky coast Me.
Dear A W-G rocky coast Me,
How about telling us some more about this Shrovetide. I have never
heard of this before.
Mike in NC
Hi all! I am new to this site and just wanted to throw out something
that I have been thinking about regarding this gospel passage-it's
the 'why moses and elijah' question. In the 2 Kings reading for this
Sunday, Elisha asks to inherit a double share of Elijah's spirit and
this was granted. In Numbers 11:17, the Lord took some of Moses
spirit and put it on others. Is there a connection here between the
spreading of "spirit" and the gift of (spreading) the Holy Spirit
when Jesus dies?? I'm not sure where to go with this, if anywhere.
Sherry
I am struck by how the disciples wanted to hold onto the vision they
had observed. The vision of the transfigured Christ was something
they recognized as important -- important enough to keep in their
memory with special monuments. Don't we often do the same thing?
When something si so special to us that we don't want to forget, we
build a monument - whether to persons, places, or events. But this
was an event that could not be "memorialized" in the normal way.
In one of my churches we will be dedicating a piece of Communion
ware in memory of a saint of the congregation. I want to speak about
how best to remember -- hold on to -- the vision of the Church as
Christ wants us to be, as well as the vision of those who have
dreamed the local Church into being because of their vision of
Christ. How can the Church be transfigured or transformed from an
inward turned body into an outpost of mission?
Early ramblings (for me).
StudentPastor in KS
A few years ago I read an Orthodox theologian's take on this text (Vladamir
Losskey I think) It was truly inspirational. He argued that the
transfiguration was not the transfiguration of Jesus. He was just
appearing to the disciples as He truly is. Rather it is the
disciples who are transfigured or transformed by this extraordinary
experience. They are brought face to face with reality for the first
time. Terry C
Jesus is transfigured (Gk. metamorphose) before the disciples as a
glimpse of God's glory, maybe to tie them over to Easter because of
the awful things they'll see before then.
This happens after Peter has made his confession "You are the
Messiah" (Mk 8.29), and after Jesus has foretold his death and
resurrection and Peter rebuked him for it. Now the voice from the
cloud confirms Peter's confession "This is my Son, the Beloved" and
responds to Peter's rebuke and unwillingness to see Jesus' death and
resurrection with "listen to him!" The first thing that Jesus says
to them after this command from heaven is not to tell about what has
happened until after the resurrection. The message that they have to
get straight is that the Son of Man must suffer.
One commentary I've read talks about listening to Christ:
"We listen to so many voices today, all of which seem wise and
attractive -- pundits, columnists, commentators, political analysts,
religious gurus, celebrities, tempters, seducers. They promise us
health, wealth, and happiness, but seldom live up to their promises
and often lead us toward ruin. Is there any trustworthy voice amidst
the cacophony? The voice from the cloud says that we can always
trust Jesus -- "Listen to him!" We say, "But Jesus is too idealistic
to understand the bare-knuckles world in which I live!" The voice
says, "Listen to him!" We say, "Later, perhaps, but I have other
things to do right now!" The voice says, "Listen to him!" We say,
"But I am not sure that I truly believe." The voice says, "Listen to
him!" How many broken hearts and broken lives could be avoided if we
would just listen to him? There are many people who regret not
listening to Jesus. Do you know one who is sorry for having
listened?
First thoughts on a Wednesday. (IT'S WEDNESDAY ALREADY?)
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Last year, I completed most of a CPE residency at a Level 1 Trauma
center. The hospital was located on a hill and could be seen for
miles. Two of my service lines were located on the seventh floor,the
top floor, of that hospital. And it was there, way up there, that I
met a good number of folks in a valley. Most were passing through
that valley. But once in a while, there was the occasional person
who had decided to "camp out" in their valley. Of course, my job was
to get them to remember and name their "mountain top" experiences.
And my favorite question was this: My gosh! In the midst of all of
that, how have you been able to hang onto hope? Mountains and
valleys. Both are there in our lives. And the difference between the
two sometimes is not so much distance as it is perspective. From the
mountian top, we can look at the valley and see/celebrate how far we
have come. From the valley, we can see/remember times, experiences,
relationships that can offer us the hope we need to make it through
the vallley.
On another note entirely, Mark is my favorite gospel. One of the
reasons is that I enjoy poking fun at those clueless disciples.
Except this time I read the text, I saw myself. Not as Peter, the
one who deals with his anxiety in any given situation by opening his
mouth long before he thinks. No. Not Peter. This time I find myself
identifying with James and John, the silent ones. I wonder if that
is how they are dealing with their own anxiety...after all, Jesus
has just been revealed to them in glory. I wonder if they are silent
because they are in awe and are speechless or if they are totally
overwhelmed by what they just saw and are "stuffing it all" (for
lack of a better term) and "distancing" (again for lack of a better
term)themselves from what must be an emotional and spiritual
overload.
That occurs to me because I experienced something like that in a
recent on-call at a different hospital from the one I mentioned
earlier. A 49 year old gentleman was in End Stage colon cancer. He
had two teenage children. I spoke with them about the possibility of
inking their father's hand for a handprint either before or after
his death so that they would have a keepsake of his "prints" in
their lives. The children asked their aunts, the patient's sisters,
to do the prints. I walked into the patient's encosed ICU room
(booth-like in nature) to find his sisters lovingly going about
their task, explaining to their dying brother what they were doing.
The image of Mary anointing the body of Jesus before his burial
immediately came to mind as I watched these Marys at work. Awe
struck and in silence, I backed out of the room to watch the
process. I was overwhelmed - emotionally and spiritually - by what I
had witnessed. It was just hours later that the patient died. And
now I break my silence, as I share the story with you. Karen in TX
To Nancy in Wi,
I think the significance in the prophets disappearing and the
disciples only seeing Jesus, is Jesus was the fulfillment of the law
and the prophets. It is by Grace that we are saved. When Grace
touches us, we can't see anyone or anthing else but Jesus. Susan in
Wa
A couple of thoughts on this reading...
To "Tom in Ontario"--I appreciate the focus on the voice from on
high saying, "Listen to him." It could be interesting to play with
the two imperatives here, "Listen" and "tell nothing"--how they
relate, their significance, etc. (I would suggest that the first is
still in force, but the second has changed--see below for more on
this.)
The commentary quote (from "Tom in Ontario") connects with what is
perhaps the BIGGEST ISSUE of all in this text, and that is the
appearance of Moses (known as the Lawgiver) and Elijah (icon of the
prophetic tradition) with Jesus. Notice that the text says, once the
"shekinah" had disappeared, "they saw only Jesus." What an amazing
thought! For those disciples, even though they still had much to
learn, Jesus now stood out--SHINED FORTH--"brighter" in their hearts
than either the Law or the Prophets, the primary sources of
authority in their religious lives.
We can learn a couple of connected things about spiritual or
"mountaintop" experiences here:
(1) the "light of the glory of God" (2 Cor. reading) illumines the
sources of authority in our lives--those sources of authority
(parents, media, etc.--fill in the blank) need to be in conversation
with Jesus (here is a lesson on the need and work of prayer in our
lives!)
(2) once "the shining" has subsided, life does not return to
normal--the "transfiguration" is for the purpose of
"transformation": we should "see only Jesus" and "listen to him"
I think this word is crucial in a world where people's spiritual
hunger drives them to any number of spiritual experiments--just like
we sometimes meet our physical hungers (and emotional, etc.) in
unhealthy ways, so do some spiritually. Where spiritual experiences
are concerned--"the proof is in the pudding"--it is the results
which follow that are most important. The acid test of true
spiritual experience is not so much what we "felt while it was
happening" as it is "Did it help us to see only Jesus when it was
over?"
[This passage also take on our human desire to "memorialize"
spiritual experience, so that we can "recapture the glory" later on.
This is a natural response, but not a thoughtful one, as Peter (the
"crash test dummy" for all Jesus' disciples, then and now!)
demonstrates so well.]
Keep in mind, too, that when Jesus was trans-figured, it PRE-FIGURED
what would happen to him through the resurrection. Where once the
disciples were encouraged to keep silence--lest people get the idea
that Jesus was up to something other than going to the cross or that
there could be some other way (see Mark 8)--NOW the disciples (US!)
are free to share openly who Jesus is and what he is up to. No
longer do we live on "glimpses of glory," but on his promise:
"Behold! I am WITH YOU ALWAYS, even to the end of the world." What
an important reminder before we plunge into Lent! Just like the
disciples, we need this vision of Jesus in order to "tide us over"
until Easter--lest we get sidetracked or derailed while looking at
our sinfulness and neediness and how long the spiritual journey is,
and how far we have to go, and...etc. And if that doesn't connect us
with Holy Communion....!!
TK in OK
