Scripture Text (NRSV)
7:1 Now when the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from
Jerusalem gathered around him,
7:2 they noticed that some of his disciples were eating with defiled
hands, that is, without washing them.
7:3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they
thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the
elders;
7:4 and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it;
and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the
washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.)
7:5 So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples
not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with
defiled hands?"
7:6 He said to them, "Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites,
as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their
hearts are far from me;
7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines.'
7:8 You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition."
7:14 Then he called the crowd again and said to them, "Listen to me,
all of you, and understand:
7:15 there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile,
but the things that come out are what defile."
7:21 For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions
come: fornication, theft, murder,
7:22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy,
slander, pride, folly.
7:23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a
person."
Comments:
Much of our faith is "tradition", really, isn't it? It is
"traditional" belief that there was one man named Adam, one woman
named Eve, there was a man named Noah, another one named Job......our
faith is so often simply what we have been taught by parents or Sunday
School teachers, and it is ingrained in our heads as absolute truth.
Members of the church I serve would rather die a thousand deaths than
hear Biblical criticism that counters what they have always "known as
fact" their whole lives. (Of course, you know how I'm using the word
"criticism")
I struggle with finding a balance between what they believe Church is
there to offer (a literal interpretation of Scripture, which includes
fear of an eternal lake of fire for those who "don't make it" to
heaven) and what I feel God has called me to preach (which sometimes
calls those old beliefs to task). Which position is "teaching human
precepts as doctrine"? How do we know which of us holds the position
closer to the Truth? How do I know - really KNOW - that what I feel
called to preach is truly the Word of God and not just some position I
want to put forth because I'm full of myself, and what I say is backed
by many good minds in the world of Biblical scholarship? How do they
know - really know - that what they have held as truth isn't just
something they are clinging to like the Pharisees clung to
hand-washing - "its something a proper believer just does, so don't
question it!"
Maybe you are all past this struggle, but I am still trying to discern
between "human" and "Divine" revelation here, between "traditions of
the elders" and God's own Truth.
KyHoosierCat
I am finding lately that many people don't know the doctrine of their
own church. They hear a book is good or inspiring and they read and
run with it, assuming what it contains it "gospel". Ex. Friends and
parishoners alike have taken to reading "Purpose driven life". I
picked it up to read with my daughter whom most of you know faces the
issue of death on a daily basis. It gave us a springboard to disucss
things. I got as far as chapter 3. It ends with this...loosly
paraphrased
When you go before the Lord at your death, he will ask you two
questions. 1st, what did you do with my son? Did you except Christ
into your life and live according to his purpose...
The second will be what did you do with what God gave you. Did you use
your time and talent for personal gain or to further the kingdom of
God.
The answer to the first qustion will determine WHERE you spend
eternity..
The answer to the second will determine what you will be doing in
heaven. ******************************************* I know this is
long...I appologize. But I think we have become a society that picks
our theology on what fits my lifestyle the best. Even within a church
preaching good doctrine, we pick and choose what we hear. Are we
challenging our congregations to know their theology and to know WHY
they attend our church..or are we just happy to fil our pews?
Christ says that what comes out matters. How we express our faith
matters. I would just like to challenge people to know what they
believe about Christ and why they attend the church they do. Tradition
is not enough.
Okay..you got the brunt of a struggle I am having..sorry if it was
over the top. tammy in texas
Tammy in Texas,
I realize I didn't get the whole book in your synopsis of the end of
that chapter, but it sounds like it's what WE do that gets us into
heaven, and what WE have done that determines everything else as well.
Does anything in the book have anything to do with grace?
I agree, what comes out matters. The evil that comes out of our hearts
is detrimental to our community and to ourselves. It defiles us along
with the community. Curbing that evil output is grace to the others
around us, and will be grace to us, also, but it falls far short of
the totality of grace God has for us.
Good springboard for discussion, though! Thanks.
Michelle
Dear KyHoosierCat,
I feel your pain over the question you raise about how can you tell
who is really closer to God's truth, brother! Seriously. I have
recently been called to task over our UM beliefs regarding baptism. It
was said by quoting this passage that all our denomination has held
true for centuries and our belief in its biblical roots especially
relating to child and infant baptism are "things of man not God". It
is so much a struggle for me that I may well ask to be moved.
Because I feel your pain and the gospel scripture is simply to hot for
me this week I am going with the James passage. I may be a whimp, but
I am an honest one.
Grace and peace. Mike in Sunshine.
Mike in Sunshine, One of my Methodist preacher buddies was asked if he
really believed in infant baptism. He responded, "Believe in it? I've
seen it done!" Creature Wayne
>>>"...asked if he really believed in infant baptism. He responded,
"Believe in it? I've seen it done!" Creature Wayne
<snorf> Waaay cute! I love it. SharinTX
Mike in Sunshine, NC,
Maybe I should not say, "I was baptized as an infant." Maybe I should
say, "I am baptized. I have been living in baptism ever since I was a
baby." To those who cannot accept this difficult teaching, we could
extend an invitation. "Come on in, the water's fine!"
I do not believe that there are two baptisms, but others do beg to
differ. I state firmly there is ONE baptism, for we are baptized into
one Lord Jesus Christ, but there are different human understandings of
what the sacrament means. Please don't give up, or give in, because
your people need to hear a confident word of grace.
Michelle
To Tammy in Texas and Michelle,
Michelle, thanks for the encouragement. In the end I know that I
cannot just quit. One reason is because I really believe in my call.
I've tested it by trying to walk away and end up coming back. Second,
I am just too hornery and mean to let people run over me.
Tammy in Texas, I too read "The Purpose Driven Church". Of course my
need was to take two churches that have a hard time determining their
purpose and helping them find one.
I gave the book mixed reviews. On the one hand, I approach things much
like Warren does. I research the area I am in to see who I am talking
too. I was also inspired by the Christian education format for new
members and leaders. Compared to most of our churches, he expects alot.
Even though it is all voluntary, there seems to be a drive to get
educated in the way that church works and to become a leader. That is
lacking in my churches. Indeed, there is a very distinct
anti-scholastic, anti-method mentality here.
I agree with Tammy when she says many do not know what they believe
and pick and choose what they believe. Our theology often supports our
stations and lifestyles. Jesus more often rocks the boat. I my own
life, it is amazing to me how affluent many of my critics are. They
have stationary lives with lots of land, cars, pools, etc. I have my
name on three lower priced vehicles and own no land. I have moved
about 18 times in 23 years. I am 41.
My biggest problem with Warren was in his admission that he does not
tell anyone that they are affiliated with a Southern Baptist Church. I
thought that was rather deceptive.
Take Rick Warren like you do everyone else. Accept the best and leave
the rest behind. He has much to say to us when it comes to growing
churches.
Grace and peace. Mike in Sunshine.
Oops. That should be ornery and not hornery. I type like I talk. Not a
good thing.
Mike in Sunshine.
UMC Baptism Discussion time cool... I too, believe in one Baptism.
Like John 3 tells us, Jesus said to Nick. You must be born again. Of
water and the Spirit. IMHO I think Jesus was saying the people who can
be 'born again' are HUMANS The Hebrew Word for water born means you
were born from a woman(mother) Thus, that's why we still use today The
turn when a woman goes into labor, Her Water Broke!
So, to stir the pot further, God Baptizes those fetuses in the womb
himself with the water that surrounds us all!( just a thought) That
water breaks and cervix dilates and we get here... Born once!
Now, we have to make a choice later, WHo will be our master God or The
world? When you come to that place of perfect submission, perfect
delight (as illustrated well in the Bruce Almighty Movie) and you Say
GOD I submit totally to you and your will! ANd we accept His Son,
Jesus then we are born again, that Holy Ghost rush waves all about us!
I knew a UM Preacher who is with God now, from the WV conf. Who liked
to argue with the ONE baptism thing...by saying all the water in the
ocean dont save you! This ties well with Mark... Go ahead eat with
dirty hands, not the water that makes you clean...it's your changed
insides!
Water is just symbol to others of what took place When Jesus washed
your sins away! So, as for me, infant Baptism symbolizes the
commitment of the parents to raise the child and the Church's
commitment too...This is serious stuff, not to be taken litely! God
will hold the Parents and the Church responsible for their vows! As
pastors we need to council parents carefully and our Churches on
this---Do you really know what this means? This isnt just a
Celebration of a baby when all the family comes in and "parties" and
then goes out for a meal afterward... I agree Church/ country club
activities as a previous poster.
If people want to just have a party for a new baby in the family, then
GO RENT the HOLIDAY INN and party people!!! Do not do the infant
baptism thing...because you are effecting that child's choice for
later! And the fullness they may recieve, just because you fleshly
desired to show off your baby in a chrisening gown!
An Alternative to parents wanting some kind of ceremony for a child...
ask the pastor to do a blessing with annointing oil. The pastor can
prayerfully with God's leading perform a ceremony for that... and all
the family can come in and then they can go out to eat afterward LOL.
And it wont affect the CHild's decision later if they want to
experience baptism when they are ready. It's not a dedication either-
no water used.
Dedication of a child IS NOT SANCTIONED by the UMC Anymore! They can
take your Credentials away same as if you participated in a same sex
covenant! (Which I personally, think is dumb and child dedication
should not be lumped with same sex thing, but I will save that
arguement for another day ROTFL) CB in West OHIO
I appreciate the discussion of baptism here. Luckily i'm not in a
place where people get after me personally in favor of believers'
baptism, but I do have a bunch who just don't understand. I did one
yesterday and will do another this Sunday, and just about every time
now, as a means of education, I say that the parents are making an
important commitment, as are we as the church. But what makes this
baptism, a sacrament, rather than "me dedicating myself" day, is that
God is at work, as the main actor, moving and washing and claiming the
baby and the rest of us as well. Confirmation, when we accept God's
gift for ourselves, is not a sacrament for us UMs, but baptism is.
That tells us that what's important is what God is doing, in the lives
of the parents and the church, and even in the heart of the littlest
child, through prevenient grace.
If baptism were just me making a promise and God responding by washing
me, it wouldn't be nearly as powerful. And what it makes me think of
with regard to the text is that all the things that come out of a
person can only be curbed by that same grace of God. It is that
washing of the heart, not the hands, that frees us. And most of us
spend our whole lives trying to live into the baptism we received
before we knew any better. I can't think of anything more beautiful,
although I'm afraid I've talked a lot without saying what I feel!
Laura in S. TX
On the other hand, I once had a pastor I respect advise me when a
couple seemed to be just sort of "having their baby done." I was in a
sticky spot b/c the parents, though members of another church (same
denomination), didn't attend. The reason they wanted me to do the
baptism is because it was "traditional" to baptise their babies in
that particular church (some long-ago family was in it). Well, with
grandparents coming in from out of the country and with the baby's
membership to be at another church, I was confused and somewhat
troubled.
i talked to this pastor, of the church where the couple officially
held their membership, to ask about it.
He said, "If the parents want to lie in their vows, that is not under
your authority. It's between them and God. All you have to do is
baptise the baby and trust that God is working in this child's life
and that God will bring her to a full relationship with him."
While I agree that the sacrament of baptism is a solemn and sacred
covenant, and should be taken seriously (I haven't baptised my own
sister's children because not only does she not attend church, but
refuses to listen to what baptism means), we must also remember that
we are not the ones in control. We are not the gate-keepers; we're the
servants. We turn no one away from communion, neither should we from
baptism. It's God's, not our action.
Sally in GA
Tammy = I continue to pray for you.
Anyone who's been quoting Rick Warren: I like his down-home advicey-type
stuff. There's nothing like good ol' practical advice.
But, I have to admit my ignorance, here - where in the Bible does it
say that God will ask us these particular two questions when we meet
him?
Sally in GA
Sally,
That was my problem with the whole thing. I have a daughter wanting
some comfort in facing death issues. So we picked up that book. A good
sounding board for discussion. But when I read that...I could go no
further. God will not place her in an area of heaven based on what she
does here. She is also bipolar so has had her moments of EXTREEM
anger. I can't ask her to read that with me and then second guess her
place with Christ.
The book was purpose driven life....
Thanks for the prayers Tammy in texas
By the way. I asked you to pray as we were getting test results... She
is stable. Cancer is no better but no worse. Honestly, that was better
than we had thought and that is good news. will be writing from the
hospital after tonight..chemo till Tues.
thanks for the prayers Tammy In Texas
Tammy in Texas, You said: >>>By the way. I asked you to pray as we
were getting test results... She is stable. Cancer is no better but no
worse. Honestly, that was better than we had thought and that is good
news. will be writing from the hospital after tonight..chemo till
Tues.
I believe I read earlier that your daughter is 15? I have a daugter
the same age. No cancer. May I join in with prayers for your babygirl?
SharinTX. (That's "Shar In Texas" just run together.)
Tammy in Texas Prayers for you and all you are living through. One of
the major themes in todays text is living not doctine or tradition.
Bless you as you live Christ's love in your family and congregation!
I had a good friend in one of my parishes who's husband was bipolar.
His life was most often "driven" by forces beyond him. He was either
driven by his hi where he would stay up all night working because he
couldl not sleep or down in the depths of depression. He worked hard a
keeping an even keel. His wife and children loved him, but he was
often angry because of what was out of his control. To have cancer
ontop of that I can not imagine. Sometimes it is just okay to be
angry. I have found that God recieves our anger with patience and
compassion. I have often directed my anger and frustration toward God
for lesser difficulties than you and your daughter are experiencing.
God is big enough to take it. I also believe that we are not judged by
earthly standards, but by the love and grace of God. I do not believe
that heaven is blocked to her because she is angry!! Can you encourage
her to watch for signs of God's presence in her journey now? do you
see them? Or does she feel totaly abandoned. I guess I shoud continue
this by email if you need a listening ear. umc@blackfoot.net
It is not so far off the topic for this weeks scripture. Tradition,
doctrine or mercy and love. your daughter is God's child!! Bless you
both.
jmj in mt.
jmj in Mt: You said: >>>It is not so far off the topic for this weeks
scripture. Tradition, doctrine or mercy and love. your daughter is
God's child!! Bless you both.
Your questions to Tammy were excellent and pastoral. I'm glad you were
not afraid to risk leaving the topic to offer her support. The text at
hand reminds of the book called: "Sacred Cows Make Gourmet Burgers"
(sorry, I forget the author) Ministry anytime, anyplace...regardless
of standard operating procedure. Isn't the jist of Mark's text trying
to remind us to be open to God's doing something new in our lives,
hearts and congregations? As we come here to discuss text it seems
appropriate to me to engage one another in mutual coping and hoping as
we struggle with this calling to which the rest of our lives simply
will not take a back seat to without undue stress upon us. Of course,
being intentional about relating the given text we are grappling with
seems in order too. It could just produce good fodder for sermon
illustration? Changing the names of the innocent and the guilty, of
course. SharinTX
Jesus' reply to the Pharisees who raise the question seems to indicate
that there isn't much joy in the life of those who cling so closely to
traditions. The language in this passage, i.e. outside, going in, come
out, within, reminded me of an old children's song:
I'm in-right, out-right, up-right, down-right happy all the time. I'm
in-right, out-right, up-right, down-right happy all the time. Since
Jesus Christ came in and cleansed my heart from sin, I'm in-right,
out-right, up-right, down-right happy all the time.
I intend to make the connection that we are called to a right
relationship with God through Jesus, and from that relationship we
find the joy of our faith -- which leaves no room in our hearts for
the "evil intentions" that defile the relationships we have with those
we are called to love.
And yes, we will be baptizing an infant this Sunday -- "it is no small
thing to be loved by one who is so fresh from God!"
OLAS
I find the hospital is an amazing place to witness God's grace as well
to experience it. My daughter, with all her garbage, has truly
experienced God's grace and recognizes it as that. That is an amazing
thing to witness. Thanks for the prayers...always welcome....
Tammy in Texas.
PS...ruffled a few feathers tonight at a call committee meeting. We
are searching for a new pastor. i am an associate in ministry so not
an option for me. Anyway...we got into some theological thought.
Literal or not, how do we read scripture... It was too fun to struggle
in love and grace. Christ was proclaimed, questions were answerded and
we all left challenged. How cool is that?
Tammy In Texas
To KyHoosier Cat,
I agree that there are lots of folks in our churches who are depending
on the Bible Stories in the way it was taught, as if it is the very
air they breathe. It is much like the pharisees that held to
tradition, even when they may not have known why it began, or what the
real significance was. But they felt threatened to any new word, as if
it would cause them to stop breathing. But I remember in my seminary
days, I took a quarter off and was in Vermont in the Fall.(gorgeous!)
I went to hear the Dalai Lama speak at Middlebury College, and about
had my breath taken away when he talked of his beliefs that were so
different than I had been taught all my life. It was a paralyzing fear
for me at the time. What if I was wrong? I have now come to a better
place, I believe, in not being so paralyzed by it and open to new
questions and investigations, but I also have a new sympathy for the
pharisees, that we are so quick to criticize, for not believing in
Jesus; for not being able to leave the tradition to embrace new life
and see truth.How often do we all do that, and miss new life? I try to
have that same sympathy for members of my church who like to say the 7
words of a dying church: "We've never done it that way before!" I
admit, it's harder!(LOL)
Regarding the discussion on baptism that many of you have discussed,
the liturgy in PCUSA is that we actually ask a question of the
congregation to make a promise to assist the parents in raising the
child in the Christian faith.I am assuming the Methodist does the
same. So, one of my pet peeves is children who live out of town, and
sometimes out of state, but want their baby's "done" at their "home
church" because the grandparents are there etc. (And often don't have
a church home where they are living, which is the real issue) But the
problem is we are asking the congregation to make a promise they can't
keep. Maybe the bigger problem is the elders and longtime members that
don't see that as a problem. There is a huge discrepancy in
understanding what the true significance of baptism is, I believe, on
the part of most of our church members. It seems to me that the clergy
haven't done a very good job of educating, and holding our members to
a true understanding. We have compromised so much through the years
that it is hard now to go back, without enduring tremendous grief.
Susan in Wa.
Susan in WA,
You write: Regarding the discussion on baptism that many of you have
discussed, the liturgy in PCUSA is that we actually ask a question of
the congregation to make a promise to assist the parents in raising
the child in the Christian faith.I am assuming the Methodist does the
same. So, one of my pet peeves is children who live out of town, and
sometimes out of state, but want their baby's "done" at their "home
church" because the grandparents are there etc. (And often don't have
a church home where they are living, which is the real issue) But the
problem is we are asking the congregation to make a promise they can't
keep.
We UMs indeed do have a similar questions to which the congregatoin
responds in unison.
I am quickly developing a reputation in my community as the pastor
that would not. The parent of a previously baptized child asked me to
re-baptize by immersion and I said no. I did it with all the grace and
love I could muster but it still caused a church rift. The daughter of
a well loved parisioner called about 5 weeks ahead of a wedding to ask
me to perform a wedding. Instead of having to say no I simply laid out
my marriage counseling requirements and gave her permission up front
to have another minister conduct the wedding.
I have come to point in my ministry where I have set my standards high
and stick by them. I find it ironic that everyone welcomed me with
open arms when I explained my standards in the beginning. I was seen
as the professional minister they needed. Only when the standards were
applied to their families did things get tough.
I explained my position to my DS over the phone a few weeks ago and he
seemed to like the standards and my approach. He did comment about the
marriage standards by saying, "I bet your weekends are free!" He has a
good sense of humor.
In my own mind, the Christian body in America has an ethical problem.
We take vows all the time we neither know what we are saying or have
no intention of meeting. A UM pastor down the road told the family of
my not re-baptized child that he would have re-baptized. What does
that say about members of our own ranks of clergy?
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine.
Hi Susan in WA
Thank you for sharing your experience of hearing the Dalai Lama and
your response to it. I have long understood the position of the Jews
in Jesus' time: who IS this man and why is he so blatantly up-ending
the teaching of the elders? Those teachings have kept us together
through thick and thin for centuries (Exile, Roman occupation, etc.)
and now he's telling us they don't matter??? Bah, humbug! So, I can
also understand that church members cling so tenaciously to their
"childhood beliefs". I respect their right to do so, but it has caused
some tension in the church. I cannot preach the "truth" as they see
it. It has become worse since the publication of the "Left Behind"
series, which my folk pass around amongst themselves promising some
"great Bible-based reading". They are all convinced that people ought
to be scared into faith, (exactly the way they admit they were raised
- the devil is waiting to get you if you don't believe in Jesus,
you're "safe" if you do believe) rather than loved into faith by the
amazing grace of our Lord Jesus.
BTW, I can really see the difficulties in the Baptism issue presented
here. The PC(USA) is pretty clear on baptism protocol, and I simply
show the parents what is written in the Book of Order. Whether the
parents, session and I are in agreement or not, the Book of Order
chimes in with the requirements, and it seems to placate everyone
sufficiently. And I don't have to be the bad guy -- or gal, in this
case. So, once again, the Law becomes the guiding principle here,
rather than grace. Uh oh.........here comes that sympathy for the
Pharisees again!
KyHoosierCat
Baptism, the "law" and tradition.
I had a member of my congregation ask me if I would baptize her
friends grandchild. they were from another denomination and another
community. My first inclination was to say no. But I asked why she was
coming to me. I listened to the story of this family.
The child was born out of wedloc the parents had no plans to marry.
The elderly priest refused to baptize the baby period!! Mother, and
grandparents were broken hearted - why punish the child? They felt
that the priest was excluding this child from the kingdom of God. I
talked to them about what baptism was and what it was not according to
my views. They were sincere in wanting the baptism. I suggested then
that they gather their own congregation of family and friends from
where ever, but most importantly from the town in which the child
would be growing up. We had a church full. It was beautiful, everyone
felt the blessing of God rain down upon us, including me!! They now
belong to another church. The spirit of the law was fulfilled even
though the "law" was broken. Most laws are made to be broken at
certian times. My joy is that this family did not just turn away from
God, because they were rejected by one priest, but are still an active
part of a family of faith in which they can "work out their
salvation"!!!!
I have some very good friends that are priests and they would never
have taken this stance in this situation. It was one mans
interpetation and clinging to tradition but it could have put an ugly
wound in this families relationship with God. It is not about
denominations and our own interpetation and traditions, but about the
family of faith where ever you can find that. I have looked for other
churches for individuals or families to switch to when they needed a
change rather than get lost through the cracks. In my first
appointment we were able to work togeter like this with the Catholic,
ELCA, UMC and a nondenominational chrismatic church. We respected and
trusted each other as clergy. It was very healing for families and the
community. Wish I could find it in every community I serve in. Not
happening in Mt. among the clergy, but the people are doing a better
job of unity.
jmj in mt
I'm going to look at it more closely over lunch, but I'm working on
the title, "Famous Last Words." based on someone's post about the 7
last words of a dying church - "We've never done it that way before."
I usually call it the "Church member's anthem," and quote it using a
sing-songy voice so that it comes off as a joke.
Sally in GA
Johnny Rivers had a Golden Hit (a long time ago) called "Muddy Water."
I might refer to it in my sermon, depending which way I go. The words
are:
I was born in Macon, Georgia. They kept my daddy in the Macon jail. He
said, "Son, if you keep your hands clean, uhuh, you won't hear those
bloodhounds on your trail."
I fell in with bad companions, I robbed the mail up in Tennessee, and
I got caught way up in Nashville, uhuh, now, well they locked me up
and threw away the key.
I washed my hands in muddy water, I washed my hands but they didn't
come clean. I tried to do what my daddy told me, but I must have
washed my hands in a muddy stream.
I asked the jailer, I said a "When's my time up?" He said "Son, you
know we won't forget. And if you try just to keep your hands clean,
uhuh, why we may just make a good man of you yet.
But I could't wait to get my time in, I broke out of the nashville
jail. I just crossed Atlanta Georgia, Ohoh, now, and I can hear those
bloohounds on my trail.
I washed my hands in muddy water. I washed my hands, but they didn't
come clean. I tried to do what my daddy told me, but I must have
washed my hands in a muddy stream.
(Repeat Chorus) O Lord, I must have washed my hands in a muddy stream.
I guess I must have washed my hands in a muddy stream.
LOL
Michelle
The tradition part of this gospel reminds me of the story of the
guru's cat: there was a guru who would have meditation services every
evening and his cat would always run in the middle of the meditators.
So every evening before the service, the guru would tie the cat to the
tree outside. Then the guru died and the new guru also had the cat
tied to the tree every evening in the same way. When the cat died, the
new guru had an assistant immediately go out and buy a new cat to tie
to the tree in the same way. The new guru even wrote a manual on the
correct way to tie the cat to the tree before meditation services. I
this this story is credited to Anthony deMello. What are our cats that
we are still tying to trees?
Jesus statements at the end of the gospel make me think of something
completely different though . . . june in tx
The tradition part of this gospel reminds me of the story of the
guru's cat: there was a guru who would have meditation services every
evening and his cat would always run in the middle of the meditators.
So every evening before the service, the guru would tie the cat to the
tree outside. Then the guru died and the new guru also had the cat
tied to the tree every evening in the same way. When the cat died, the
new guru had an assistant immediately go out and buy a new cat to tie
to the tree in the same way. The new guru even wrote a manual on the
correct way to tie the cat to the tree before meditation services. I
this this story is credited to Anthony deMello. What are our cats that
we are still tying to trees?
Jesus statements at the end of the gospel make me think of something
completely different though . . . june in tx
Re baptism of infants when parents do not belong to the congregation:
I can see the dilemma when you are asking a congregation to promise to
help rear the child in a Christian atmosphere. So, how about seeing if
the errant parents would accept a private baptism? Thus, they child
gets baptized, but the congregation is not placed in an untenable
stance. - Dan in AK
I gained a small insight while going over this at lunch.
vv 3 & 4 are not literally true - not ALL Jews did this. There were
plenty who did not, probably the "ordinary folks." (this from the new
NRSV Interpreter's Bible)
I posit that the Pharisees, in asking Jesus why he and his disciples
didn't follow the rite for washing hands, were asking not just why
they didn't follow the law, but more specifically, why didn't they
follow the law that ~religious leaders~ would have made ~certain~ to
follow?
Thus, the challenge was perhaps not a simple challenge to their piety,
but to their spiritual leadership.
It speaks to those times when other preachers or self-proclaimed
spiritual leaders expect that because we are also spiritual leaders we
do everything exactly as they do and believe as they believe. Baptism,
Biblical interpretation, when Jesus is coming back, Harry Potter
books, and the really important stuff like where to put the cheddar
cheese for the tater bash! :)
It also speaks to those lay folks who believe we ought to be better
than everybody else. My response - with a smile - is to tease. I ask,
"Oh, so it's OK for you to sin, but not for me?" One guy told me,
"Yeah, but what you do shouldn't be as bad as what I do." or "and
because you're not ordained, you're offf the hook?" If you know it's
wrong, don't do it - regardless of who you are!!! Set-apart is one
thing, on a pedestal is quite another.
Anyways, I thought I'd throw that out there for some food for thought.
Sally in GA
Dan in AK - and that raises a whole new dilemma!
Actually, the way I see it is this: the group that responds is
actually responding on behalf of the entire body of Christ. It really
is up to the parents, after the ceremony, to make sure the child
encounters the body of Christ. It doesn't mean that the promise from
that congregation is the ONLY congregation can "so order (their) lives
..." to bring him/her up in the household of God. These words ought
not be taken TOO literally.
Sally in GA (and I bet you're a lot less hot and sticky than I am!)
Re:
"Re baptism of infants when parents do not belong to the congregation:
I can see the dilemma when you are asking a congregation to promise to
help rear the child in a Christian atmosphere. So, how about seeing if
the errant parents would accept a private baptism? Thus, they child
gets baptized, but the congregation is not placed in an untenable
stance."
Yikes! This makes it sound to me like the sacrament of baptism is some
sort of magic spell! Please, please do not encourage private baptisms.
Maybe, just maybe someone in that congregation will take the
responsibility seriously and continue to encourage the parents and the
child to become more active in thier faith lives, even if they have to
do so from a distance.
In addition, I believe the congregation makes the promise on behalf of
the whole family of God. We can pray for those at a distance, and we
should, but it would be even better if we can also contact someone at
that far place to assist us to fulfill this promise.
Please keep the responsibility of evangelism to those near and far as
public as possible.
Michelle
Baptism is initiation into the church, i.e. the Body of Christ. To do
a private baptism without the church being present would be
incongruous. Creature Wayne
Tammy in texas and others The following book is excellent for those
who have been given a "certain" amount of time left on this earthly
planet. I think it is one of the best and most proactive books I have
ever read about Dying. It is called" Finding YOur Way to say Goodbye"
I wish my sister had had this book when she died of Leukemia. It
really gives good support and suggestions for being able to have a
"good and blessed death". That means that the person dying is in
control. Check it out, author Harold Ivan Smith. I purchased it from
Cokesbury. Nancy-Wi
Whoa! It is amazing the amount of energy aroused by the issue of
baptism. (Washing hands/bodies, washing hearts and minds)
I believe that a large part of our dilemma, has to do with our
understanding that baptism is simply an event. A one of occurrence,
and that's it.
Baptism is both event and process. Similar to all the sacraments that
the church dispenses.
For example; Marriage. The wedding day is not the marriage. What
follows the wedding day is the marriage. It is in the day to day
living out of the wedding vows that a true marriage is formed.
Ordination. The day of our ordination is not our priesthood, it is the
day to day living out of our ordination vows that constitutes our
priesthood.
Baptism. It is the day to day living out of our committment to the way
of Christ that is our faithfulness to what we promise. By the way this
is also the hardest part of our baptism.
When we constitute baptism with only the ritual event, we miss the
point of what Jesus was trying to achieve.
We don't wash once in our lifetime and think we are clean. We have to
consistently wash every day or our bodies will become diseased and
unhealthy. Baptism effects us at the very deepest levels of our
spirit. The process is this. Our spirit is that part of us that
contains our life/our identity. It contains our beliefs and values.
Beliefs are those "opinio" which we strongly hold. (Remember that
every belief carries a value - the stronger the belief the higher the
value) These beliefs and values are consistently shifting and altering
as we encounter new alternatives and experience the changing landscape
of life. ie; new directives of the spirit of God. The word "repent"
means to re-think, re-consider attitudes and perceptions.
Knowing that our beliefs govern our choices and decisions, which then
effect our response and actions in the world, places a greater
emphasis upon this process.
For me, Baptism is the process of becoming better people, as we
attempt to live in the way of Jesus Christ. Infant or adult, it still
requires the same degree of effort.
Yes! you can only be baptised once, just as you can only be
circumcised once! But the process of fully being baptised is a
lifetime challenge.
I am sorry to have gone on so long. I think this matter is imperative
to the life of the future church. I feel it needs to be discussed much
more widely.
Thank-you as always for the space to voice my thoughts.
KGB in Aussie
PS: Tammy in Texas. Can I offer my humble words of encouragement.
Disregard the questions of that book, which disturb you (and me). We
are human "beings", not human "doings". God loves us for what we are,
not what we can do.
Your daughter has nothing to prove.
Regards to all.
What does it mean to be "defiled"? Aren't we all defiled? We share
that in common. The Pharisees and we want to make a distinction based
on following the traditions of the elders. Are we saved by what we do
or don't do? In their defense, it may seem to them that Jesus is anti-nomian.
Aren't there some sins, like adultery, that fall under the judgment of
God, but that we may tend to ignore in order to be grace-ful? Having
asked this, my direction for the sermon was going to be "Come and eat,
whether your hands are washed or not, whatever you have done, for
Christ is the meal that brings healing and changes us from adulterers,
prideful, envious, etc. to be those who care for widows and orphans.
We come together as people who are defiled, and we are made whole
through faith in the One who became defiled for us. He shares all
things in common with us, even our humanity and our death.
Tom from MO
In recent days individuals and corporations large and small have been
battling worms (like "slammer") that target computers and "de-file"
(pardon the pun)them. Urgent calls to service support, patches, and
anti-virus programs are employed to combat the defiling worms. To
think that people wake up in the morning and actually think to
themselves, "How can I mess things up for people today? How can I
screw up their lives with a destructive virus that will invade their
systems and destroy hard work and productivity?" is beyond me. For
sure, it is intentional, premeditated vandalism. So...we scramble to
fix things, don't we?
Oh that we could so easily remedy the sin that has wormed its way into
our hearts sice the Fall. Maybe if we simply ignore the worm, it will,
in time, go away. After all, it is not affecting every file. If we
could simply find a patch...a good work...an excuse perhaps...a
justification. Perhaps an anti-virus program that will guard us, an
obligatory prayer, an occasional visit to church.
"All things evil come from within," Jesus reminds. The fix is the
cross, the nails, the spear, the death, the resurrection. He has, in a
moment in time, applied the patch between man and God. By His Holy
Spirit we remain connected and by His grace we are healed. ARMY CH E,
Heidelberg
In reference to the ritual washing against which Jesus spoke, I
commend William Barclay's commentary on Mark. He discusses at some
length the difference between a ritual (1 1/2 eggshells of water to
purify the hands)cleansing and actually having clean hands. I plan to
look with an ironic eye at rituals and their purpose in maintaining
the system in a sermon I have titled, "Systems Theory 101" PastorRick
in FL
What an awesome discussion we are having!!!!!
The entire "Re-baptism" issue has me uncomfortable. If in infant
baptism God comes to us...vs., Adult where We come to God, then the
very thought of "re-baptism" is a slap in the face of our belief
system. In my mind, it implies even stronger than if a person simply
believs in believers baptism, that God in fact didn't come to us but
that we need to DO something. To baptize a grown person who has never
been baptized is one thing, but the "re-baptism" is tough. Could you
consider asking the individual to simply make public confession. Have
them share that they were baptized as a child but have not lived out
that baptism. In recent months, weeks, days.. They have come to
realize Christ's presence all along the way and they want to publicly
acknowledge that. My guess is they will not go for it. They truly feel
they must "do" this. And in that, the strength of our belief that we
"do" nothing and yet Christ comes to us.
just a goofy womans thoughts. Tammy in Texas
This is off topic. I've read a lot of posts recently about infant
baptism in UMC. What is the issue? I'm curious.
My own denomination (my whole country) is struggling with same sex
marriage. I'm curious to know what is troubling other denominations.
Rev. Helen in Ontario (United Church of Canada)
Rev. Helen poses the question, "What is troubling other
denominations?"
The most troublesome issues often center on things listed in the text
in vv. 21-22. Notice how I brought it back "on topic"? Seriously,
denominations are not troubled, people are. Groups of people find
consensus on issues, divide or unite around issues, debate and fight
over issues. Nearly all of them around the human heart issues listed
here in Mark 7.
Recently, I read an article by John Derbyshire entitled "Eternal
Heresy". He is critical of today's churches for adopting age-old (back
800+ years) heresies that seem to discard Scripture. Our modern
thinking seems to believe that..."This is a new age, Joachim's Third
Age, when we have attained sufficient wisdom that we can throw out all
those stupid old prohibitions and sanctions. Our long spiritual
apprenticeship is over. Our own hearts can guide us now; and whatever
they guide us to, will be right! Fay ce que voudres!" (translation -
Do what thou wilt)
Perhaps Thomas Paine in 1776 said it best when he wrote, "A long habit
of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it the superficial appearance of
being right." If all things are right, there is no need of the Gospel.
It seems to me that troubling issues are those which bump up hard
against the clarity of God's Word. A systematics professor of mine,
Dr. Fred Kramer, once said of God's Word that "the problem was not
perspicuity but perspicacity." In other words, the problem is not that
the scriptures are unclear, rather, our minds will not discern what is
there. It is a daily struggle, but one that has eternal consequences.
ARMY CH E, Heidelberg
Army CH - boy, you're hot this week! Thanks for two insightful posts.
I'm going to take off on the theme of "come to the table and eat with
the bridegroom" (Jesus had been questioned not much earlier about
fasting). The important thing is in the breaking of bread, not the
logistics of the ritual. It's pretty conventional, I know, but the
Pharisees were questioning Jesus' spiritual leadership because he
didn't practice religion like they did.
Jesus points out that though they were practicing religion, they
didn't have a very close relationship with God. What Jesus gives is
the relationship - eating with him.
I'd like to use the sermon to address an ongoing issue in my church,
but in a teaching way. Which means that I'll have to be "extra-gentle"
in the way I present it - and that is, I choose to use a common loaf
for communion. This is evidently a relatively new thing for them
(began with my predecessor) - and brand new with me is their being
served rather than pinching off a piece for themselves. The objection
I hear is that (and I quote) "we don't know where peoples' hands have
been" before being served. I've gotten around the issue by having the
assistants and myself put hand sanitizer on our hands. But, it seems
to me that eating with unwashed hands is a symbol of trust.
Not that God magically makes germs disappear, but that we show our
profound trust in Christ by trusting his body.
Any illustrations, or suggestions?
BTW: just thought I'd share a very touching moment with you all - I
got a "thank you" card today from a woman who isn't even all that
regular an attender, saying "thank you for such wonderful sermons."
I want to share that thanks with you - you all are part of the
process, and also to offer it as encouragement! We might be reaching
people more profoundly than we think.
Sally in GA
And how would she know I'd much rather be thanked than complimented?
Sally
"A Little Dirt Won't hurt you?!"
That's what a young father told his little child when she
inadvertantly dropped her cookie on the grass. I guess it's the 3
second rule. Just dust it off and eat it, it's o.k. Of Course, if mom
was there she'd have a fit, LOL.
This little story reminds me of this passage. The Disciples are like
the child, Jesus the Dad, and Pharissees possibly the mom?
Sometimes we have to eat with dirty hands, right? We out somewhere no
water to wash with and you hungry, you can't starve, your body need
nutrients to live. So, you eat! Some times people have to do what they
have to do to survive.
I am reminded of the OLD West Tales and that Hooker with the Heart of
Gold. We can actually walk in other people shoes, know what they have
to go through know what they have to do to survive.
How many "good Church Folk" look down their noses at the welfare
mother, the drug addict, the aids victim, the mentally impaired, the
elderly, the homeless... All these are like unto Jesus Disciple,
potentailly learning at Jesus Feet about LOVE. And someone judges them
and puts them down.
This is thought provoking passage. We as pastors have to look at
ourselves, because if we tell the truth on ourselves we have done this
the pharrissees... Even though we perhaps were one of the dirty handed
people in our beginning! This look to self, can help us convey the
message to our people, our flock.
We can put ourselves in the Pharissee place or the disciples with
dirty hands. Because is truth be known we have ALL been in both places
probably.
Jesus isn't saying here though Come Dirty handed people and stay dirty
Handed. Yes, we come to Jesus as we are and Jesus cleans us up outside
and inside! (I think , that I had to say that, because we cannot water
down the gospel to say Come to Jesus and transformation doesnt matter)
Because it does, we can't say baby Christians we have to grow, but
like multiple intelligences none of us are in the same
place...different places on our journey. I pastor, I don't smoke. Not
right for me. But, I know lots of pastors who do smoke. God knows our
heart and knows where we are. A preacher that smokes isn't going to be
condemned. For me to smoke would stand in the way of ME serving MY
GOD! We all have to have intimate personal relation to GOD. We will
stand before God individually.
God Knows us and all about us, By and by. He know the dirty handed
disciples and the Pharrasees. This passage is a wake up call to both.
Jesus isn't petting the disciples. And yes He's cahastizing the
pharrasees. But, he's not petting the disciples...He's making both
aware of what real cleanlines
is...Holiness...sanctification...Something that takes place on the
inside, and we humans can't do it. Something Only God can do... So,
whether this day you are a Pharrasee or Dirty handed, this message is
for you!!! It's Good News!! Take it inside! Move toward Holiness, Holy
Living. Allow God to clean you up. And you'll see why a little dirt
dont't hurt anyone.
Go in Christ's Love and Be good to each other....
(Then we're having communion, with a bowl of water set out with a
towel, as symbolism and offered )
Clerically Blonde in West Ohio
To Dan in Ak,
I could not baptize a child in a private baptism, because that defeats
the purpose of baptism. Baptism is bringing a person: child or adult,
into the body of Christ. It is a corporate sacrament, not a private
one. I would never want to communicate to anyone that the Christian
journey is one of "Jesus and me", but one of living out our baptism
within the body of Christ.
Susan in Wa.
Mike in Sunshine,
I bet your weekends are free! But good for you for standing up for
your standards. I too require a minimum of 3 sessions of Pre-marital
counseling, and I like to do that over 6 months, so I can see the
couple in the seasons and it isn't a rushed deal. It amazes me how
many couples get the flowers, the dress, the cake, the reception hall,
and everything else, and then it's "Oh yeah, I guess we need to get a
preacher!" and we are supposed to bend to their every wish.
Regarding baptism, and the ranks of clergy who do allow rebaptism etc.
That is exactly the point, and is what makes it difficult for those
clergy who hold to the standards of what baptism is supposed to be.
The clergy and the elders who don't completely understand and are very
willing to compromise. Someone also told a story about a case that did
work well by listening to the story of the family, but again, and
although it did lead the family to another church, I have a hard time
with gathering our own community outside of the church. Isn't it much
better to provide pastoral care to the family on what Baptism is, or
is not, and remind them that Baptism is not "fire insurance?" I am
dealing with a couple now who made an agreement when they got married
that they "Didn't do church." At the time it was fine because they
both were there. Now, some 15 years later, the husband has come to
faith, and wants to join the church and be baptized. Their daughter
also wants to be baptized. The mother is feeling abandoned, but is
holding her ground. I have tried to establish a relationship with her
and let her know that I respect where she is and we have been able to
discuss it. I feel there is a process here and that when they are
baptized, it will be in God's timing and not mine. So, what is the
rush? I could push the matter, but it would alienate her, and possibly
cause some marital problems, and I don't think that is the appropriate
thing. Interesting situations that arise in churches that we were
never taught about in Seminary!
Susan in Wa.
When ever I was scheduled to baptise, after the event and after the
congregation pledged to surround this person with Christian love, I
would sprinkle the water in front of me and state, "Remember your
baptism and be thankful!" As I prepared to retire, two elderly
parishioners came quietly to me and said that before I came (and they
had been members there for quite some time) that in fact they had
never been baptised, but were too embarrished in this setting to say
anything. I pledged that I would not embarrish them, but felt an
obligation to take care of this situation. It was done (and in the
midst of the congregation)! And now they can in reality "Remember
their baptism and be thankful".
Shalom
bammamma
Ky HoosierCat,
I laughed out loud when you mentioned the "Left Behind Series." I have
a real problem with that series because it is fictiona and people read
it as if it is the Gospel truth. I was at the Whitworth Institute of
Ministry on study leave 2 years ago, where Heidi Husted was our
evening preacher. She used Revelations as her text. As part of one of
her messages she talked about Left Behind, and for those who remember
it, Hal Lindsay's "Late Great Planet Earth" that came out in the 70's.
She said, "Hal Lindsay is a very wealthy man. Not only because of the
proceeds from his books, but because he invested in LONG TERM REAL
ESTATE! GO HOME AND TELL YOUR PEOPLE!" We howled!! I cannot stand the
idea of scaring people into heaven!
Also, as a Presbyterian as well, I have often taken these difficult
situations to my session and discussed them, with both sides of the
argument, but stating where I fall, and why, as well as guidance from
the B of O, and have found that to be a much better approach since it
isn't just me out on a limb! There really is a lot of wisdom in both
the polity and the approach of including the elders, the
representative government!
God Bless you,
Susan in Wa.
Tammy in Texas,
I agree that re-baptizing someone is troubling. It essentially is
saying that God's grace didn't work the first time, which I don't
think one who is standing there as an adult to make a faith
proclamation can say, or they wouldn't be there. In the New Book of
Common Worship, there is a wonderful liturgy for a re-affirmation of
one's faith, and it gives the individual an opportunity to give
testimony to what God is doing in their lives. I saw one couple do
that as a response to an Emmaus Weekend, and it was beautiful.
The only question I have about it, is there are so many who go to the
Holy Land and want to be baptized in the Jordan, even though they are
already baptized, and whole tour buses go and do that. Somehow there
it is the romance of the place that makes it o.k. But if I were to do
that, I would make sure to use other wording, about reaffirming their
baptism, and not baptizing them in the traditional wording, "In the
name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
Susan in Wa.
Tammy in Texas,
Another response to your piece on rebaptism: In the Presbyterian
thought, whether it is a child or an adult, God always initiates the
movement within a person's life. It is always by God's invitation and
our accepting that invitation that we move forward in our faith lives.
So, if an adult comes forward with the desire to be rebaptized, it is
God in His grace that is inviting the person to live out the baptism
they received as an infant, and a statement that God had remained
faithful to them inspite of their unfaithfulness. What an awesome
statement that God's grace and mercy for all of us is in abundance!!
God Bless you too, in your difficult journey with your daughter. I
rejoice that she is able to see God's grace for her in her situations.
She certainly has a heavy cross to carry, as do you. You are in my
prayers.
Susan in Wa.
No amount of ritual hand-washing is going to make us clean enough, so
why bother? Rather, our baptism, though outward and visible is of an
inward and spiritual grace, a heart-washing, as it were (v. 21). And
washing our hearts isn't something we can do.
Isn't it ironic that we got off into the rituals of the sacrament of
baptism? I, too, believe sacramental theology to be of paramount
importance, and yet I also have to wonder about the width of the
tightrope of "human doctrine" that we're walking on. Would we know a
human doctrine when we saw it? I'm not sure I would, other than the
obvious ones.
Having title problems again this week.
Sally
How about this for a title?
"Dirtiness is Next to Godliness"
Sally
Or, given a combination of this and the epistle,
"Dirty Hands, Warmed Heart"
Sally
There Jerome Commentary gives an introduction to this pericope saying:
This text shows Jesus' opposition to the code of unwritten law so
scrupulously observed by the Pharisees. It is part of a larger unit
that continues the self revelation of jesus as the Messiah whose
mission extends beyond Judaism and is in opposition to the legalism
and particularism of the Pharisaic leaders.
In my mind, there are two main points in this text and the sermon can
go either way.
First, there is Jesus' response to the accusation toward his
disciples. The accusation comes from the religious leaders who expect
the disciples to follow the custom of hand-washing. Jesus quotes
Isaiah 29:13 and basically tells the accusers that they don't know God
as well as they think they do and that they are not as close to God as
they think they are. He tells them they have abandoned the teaching of
God and are following human teaching. I'm sure their reaction was less
than positive to this counter attack by Jesus. Translating this
message to the present day would imply that the clergy and lay-leaders
of the church are the modern day Pharisees. Perhaps we need to
re-evaluate our stances concerning how the church operates today.
There is a need for self-searching introspection to take stock of how
close to or far from God we are.
The second point is in vs. 14-15 where Jesus calls attention to
himself and tells everyone to listen to him. Jesus is being very
authoritative as he tells the people to "Listen to me, all of you, and
understand." He then says, "Nothing that goes into a man from outside
can defile him; it is what comes out of a man that defiles him." The
Jerome Commentary says, "The truth expressed here must have been
surprising to the Jews, to judge from the fact that no parallels are
found in rabbinical literature." These words of Jesus are new, fresh,
and innovative. The sermon could try to come to grips with Jesus'
words as compared to worldly wisdom of today that says, "Garbage in,
Garbage out." How do we square Jesus' words with modern wisdome that
says you get out of something what you put into it? I think this is
the question I will pursue with my sermon, but I don't have a title
and I don't know what the outcome will be. Any suggestions? Creature
Wayne
A possible response to a person who asks to be rebaptized:
"You are (stress present tense) already baptized. The water and the
Word are already active in your life. If you need additional
reassurance, then feel free to dip your hand into the waters of the
baptismal font. Touch the water to your forehead, and make the sign of
the cross. Remind yourself that you are baptized in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and rejoice!"
(I can just hear some of my parishoners saying, "That's too Catholic!"
LOL)
Michelle
Creature Wayne,
I just heard on the news this morning that they are trying to figure
out how to use manure to create energy. Your garbage in, garbage out
comment reminded me!
What goes in is often what comes out, though. In this case, it's a
difference of where it goes in. What goes into the mouth eventually
goes out somewhere else (namely, the sewer). What comes out of the
mouth went in usually through the ears, sometimes through the eyes,
sometimes through experience, and is filtered in the brain and the
heart. If it can be cleansed by the heart and the brain, good. If it
is defiled instead... bad!
However, what comes out, regardless of what went in, is evidence of
the condition of the heart (and the brain). If what comes out is
"dirty," there is evidence that the heart needs to be cleansed.
Michelle
Michelle, Thanks! Your comments are very helpful. Creature Wayne
I know that my sons are glad that way back when their mother and I had
them baptized as babies that it was partly to mark them and remind us
of the covenant we had to raise them in the faith. If circumcision was
still the manner for marking males, and a personal decision, we could
have said "You know, Pastor, the boy's Mother and I think we will wait
until they are old enough to make this decision for themselves..."
MrBill in MI
Thanks everybody for the great discussion so far. I am going to share
a concern that is really not connected. I've hesitated to bring this
up, but here goes...
Verse 15: "there is nothing outside a person that by going in can
defile" I am having a really hard time with this verse. I have been
talking with some folks who are addicted to pornography. Their guilt
and anguish over their inability to stop is huge. I am only beginning
to read about the truly addictive quality of pornographic images, and
I find myself disagreeing with Jesus. (Can I do that??!) What goes in
can defile.
I'm not talking about normal sexual curiosity, but the growing numbers
of addicted people. Just look at the amount of X-rated spam that we
get. I wonder how the church can help. It is not a simple problem and
praying about it hasn't completely helped the folks I've been talking
to. Any resources to suggest? I am discovering the local resourses for
counseling and 12-step groups. I am too chicken to bring it up from
the pulpit right now, but it is a great pastoral concern. I wonder how
many others are strugging. Judy in Idaho
Am I missing something? All this discussion of baptsm seems to be
straying from the text. Isn't there something more important here than
trying to decide when (at what age) one baptizes another? I could add
my 2 cents worth, but....
I wonder about all those people with OCD who wash their hands 100's or
1000's of times each day.
I think the passage has more to do with how we ac in response to the
internal cleansing of God's grace than it does with some of the above
discussion. I wonder what might happen if we take a serious look at
vss 7 & 8.
In a commentary series edited by Marion Soards ("Preaching the Revised
Common Lectionary") one writer distinguished between traditon and
traditionalism. Tradition, he said, is the living faith of our past.
Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. I think this is more
at the heart of the text.
Steve in WNC
Hello Steve in WNC,
Ah yes, Marion (Marty) Soards....another good ol' Presbyterian (and
from Louisville Seminary, too!!)
Just wondering, though: how do you discern between tradition (our
faith history) and traditionalism (those bits and pieces of 'truth'
that we cling to because we're too scared to let go of them - "if I
don't believe this, I'm not a Christian!!!")
This is where I am with this text. Struggling with what's what. But, I
have to admit, I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion on Baptism, as
well!
KyHoosierCat
Hey all,
Sick of me yet? I think I am going to enjoy preaching on this text
this Sunday. Our church has been in transistion for some time. Just
healing over a very rough situation. We currently have an interim
minister who preaches the half of the Sundays I dont'... He has worked
our healing our congregation before we call another pastor. It has
been amazing. But in the healing, worship practices and styals has
been a big discussion/debate. I have smiled at what some find sacred.
Many of our congregation feel that there is ONLY one way to say the
Lord's prayer. It begins "Our Father who art in heaven..." The very
thought of "Our Father in Heaven" is totally unsettling to them. And
trust me, they have made it Gospel in their minds. Sort of "this is
the way Jesus said it". sort of thought. That is one issue..there are
others. It has been exciting to watch our Interium pastor gently pry
open their thought process to understand what is Gospel and what is
hand washing. Oh trust me, we will continue the traditional form of
the Lord's prayer no matter HOW contemoporary our worship. But the
congregation is beginning to see that this is a Preferance, not the
Gospel. It will be fun to affirm the growth I have seen, as well as to
pry some of those doors a little more. I believe that there is nothing
that will strengthen faith as much as challenging it a bit.
Just some more thoughts. Tammy in Texas
Judy in Idaho,
"Nothing that goes in can defile..."
You are right, pornography, illicit drugs, excessive amounts of
alcohol, excessive amounts of sweets!>*($... These things can cause us
great harm in terms of physical, social, or emotional well-being.
I think the defiling refers to that which makes us unacceptable to
God. These things, which all stem from sin would certainly make us
unacceptable to God, were it not for the cleansing power of Jesus
Christ (dare I say through baptism?).
The Pharisees washed to make themselves acceptable to God, but the
ritual washing is not enough. We need Jesus. He makes us acceptable
through the forgiveness of sin, rather than through OUR works of
ritual.
Certainly, we should avoid those things which are sinful, things that
interfere with our relationship with God. They defile, by going in,
but not in the way to which Jesus was referring--that is--
incidentally, from unwashed hands while eating. They defile through
purposeful (or uncontrollable) practice of sinful deeds. Yet, still,
they are not powerful enough to keep us from God's love in Christ
Jesus.
This isn't yet well-organized, but I hope it helps!!!
Michelle
Just wondering, though: how do you discern between tradition (our
faith history) and traditionalism (those bits and pieces of 'truth'
that we cling to because we're too scared to let go of them - "if I
don't believe this, I'm not a Christian!!!")
=======
"Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead
faith of the living."
Jaroslav Pelikan
Steve in WNC,
I disagree, that baptism has nothing to do with the text. Perhaps the
discussion about baptising infants vs adults might be off topic and
yet it too has a connection.
Baptism was/is the symbolic/realistic entry into the way of Jesus
Christ. The way of compassion and love. "I am the way, the truth and
the life"
People get so obsessed with the ritual, that they lose sight of the
meaning behind it. I have people enquiring for baptism, with no
concept that it requires a committment to the way of Christ. They
simply don't want their child to be different. (One even confessed
that she was sorry she had waited so long to get him "done". He was 3
months old!!)
The Pharisees fell into the trap of confusing the ritual with the
meaning. Ritual points to meaning. Yet so often in the church we
regard ritual as having meaning in itself.
Jesus wanted people to move from the superficial and artificial
expressions of faith, into the reality of what lies behind our
everyday choices. It is so easy to appear religious/spiritual; it is
far more difficult to really be religious/spiritual.
I think the folklore religion that many Australians practice, is the
very reason we have the serious social issues that we encounter in
this country. Even among the faithful of the congregation where I
serve, I would dare to suggest there is not a great deal of depth to
their committment.
Washing hands or head, or even whole bodies for that matter, does not
substitute for the ongoing purifying of our spirit, through the
message and spirit of Christ.
I am kind of relieved/saddened to hear that others are also struggling
with a deeper theology of baptism, and not simply complying with the
traditional understanding of the past.
Thank-you for listening to my ramblings, Regards, KGB
Thank you, unnamed contributor, for the complete quote from Jaroslav
Pelikan. But, my question stands. How do we figure out what is living
and what is dead - and who's to decide it? There are theological
issues I could debate with some parishoners until my tongue fell out.
My 30 years of daily Bible Study with an able assist from a multitude
of Biblical scholars means nothing if what I say does not "jibe" with
what Mrs. Haywood taught in 4th grade Sunday School. Anything else is
a lie and a damned lie.
So, here we are. We're ALL taking the role of the Pharisees ("this is
what I was TAUGHT!") and we're ALL taking the role of Jesus ("it's all
about just loving God with all your heart and all your soul and with
all your mind, and the details just don't matter.") It's proving to be
quite interesting. Grace will lead us through it.
KyHoosierCat
My apologies to any who were offended by my borrowing from
somebody...was it Will Rogers? I forget...
