Yes, there is judgment in this text. The judgment against adultery
in this text leaps out at me. Yet, the adulterers do not suffer the
ultimate consequences here, the prophet does.
I'm thinking I may go with a question. "What is it about your
behavior that deeply greives God?" and then, "What can you do about
it?"
Certainly, earning salvation is not the question here, but pleasing
God, for salvation has alreadly been won.
(I'm a little early in my posting, as I will be on vacation next
week and need to prepare early. I'll not expect many replies this
week.)
Michelle
I just wonder how many look at this scripture and blame the woman
for John's misfortune just like the Eve and the apple broohaha?!
When will we ever see equal (and unwelcome )participation?
Doug in Erie
This is early, but what stricks me is a twist on the old saying,
"don't kill the messenger" They didn't like the message, so they
killed the messenger. Charles of Ohio
Another angle for this, and it can work well for youth sexuality
issues: how often do we let our hormones rules our minds? King Herod
was so caught up in the beauty of his daughter, he couldn't think
straight, caught up in the lust of the moment. Not only is it
appalling that King Herod is lusting over his own daughter (possible
a daughter in law, not a blood relation), but he allows her beauty
to cloud his judgement. This could also relate well to sexual abuse
instances, where step fathers sexually take advantage of their step
daughters. So, to take this scripture into the issues that can
affect many people, this is a good one to point out the flaws in
living this kind of behaviour. (I know there are so many King Herods
in the Bible, but isn't this the one that get struck dead by God?)
Some musings early on in the week. How can this scripture guide us
in our sexuality and issues of sexual abuse in a gospel and healing
way? Padre DWB in Ontario
John was not killed because of his message. John was only arrested
because of his message. Mark says that Herod actually protected John
from Herodias.
John was killed because Herod had 1.)taken an oath to give the girl
whatever she wanted and 2.) because he didn't want to look bad in
front of guests. Again Mark is wondering what message influences us
most: Jesus' message, or the messages of this world?
June in TX
They had asked me to help, a simple thing really. Just carry the
empty box through the labyrinth of tables so that a container of
this or a jar of that might be deposited within its depths. Carry
the box for a crippled woman who could not carry it for herself, a
small Kingdom act meant to go no further then the end of the line,
no further then a box of assorted foods. But that’s the thing about
Kingdom acts, they always birth their own dimensions, further,
deeper, holier, the really real. It was into this space that his
voice exploded, “I can’t believe this!” He furiously barked out at
anyone within earshot. “They should have planned better! This is
pathetic!” The young man starred angrily about as if wishing to see
who might join him is his note of discord.
A few those who were also standing in the line nodded in agreement
and added irritable mumbles to the growing din of dissension. Others
shifted uncomfortably from side to side, not wishing to enter into
the verbal unrest. Perhaps they didn’t wish to offend those standing
on the other side of the long tables that had been temporarily
erected in the Moose Lodge parking lot. Perhaps they wished to bring
a bit of harmony to this already distressful circumstance. Perhaps,
they were just too sick and tired, too hopeless, too beat up and put
down and shut out, to offer up any other effort on their own behalf.
Whatever the reason, the young man found little support in his
outcry. Yet lack of mutuality hardly quieted his ire. He continued
in his furious denouncements.
Some of those who were handing out the dwindling food glanced up
from their hectic work, eyeing the young man with looks of concern.
Several bore expressions which seemed to say, “It was one thing to
volunteer to provide food to these who are without, but do I also
need to deal with this anger?” Even to the casual observer the
problem was obvious, too many people in line and not enough food.
Too many mouths, too many lives, too many stories of not having
enough. No matter how hard these angels behind the tables worked, no
matter how much they gave of themselves, on this day the current
reality could lead to only one conclusion: the young man, along with
many others, would receive little to eat.
He was getting louder and more agitated with each pronouncement. I
allowed the line to move around me until we were shoulder to
shoulder, standing together with our empty boxes almost touching. He
was young, “too young to be standing in this line of the desperate,”
I thought, and then, “but what age is right for this?” His eyes
shone with anger and frustration, just small slits radiating fury to
anyone who dared turn his way. And there was something else as well.
Fear. Fear from the sight of now almost empty tables. Fear from the
hunger that was already haunting his imagination. Fear of returning
home with nothing. Fear of what he would see in the faces of those
he loved.
He looked my way and once again exclaimed, “There’s not enough! They
should have planned better!” I nodded. “Yes, perhaps they should
have. But then, do you know how much they are paid to do this?”
He blinked, and looked at the ground for a moment. “No, not much I
suppose.”
“No,” I said, “They don’t get paid anything. They are here simply
because they love you. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps they should
have given those in front a bit less, but they are here and they
doing the best they can.”
He didn’t say anything for a moment. We shuffled silently forward,
moving within this broken mass of humanity. “You know,” he
stuttered, “I … I used to volunteer too. I know what it’s like to
volunteer.” His face softened, the anger now replaced with anguish.
The words were gushing out like a jumbled puzzle, trying to explain
his circumstance, desperate to be understood, seeking validation. “I
was in the Marines. I got out just a few weeks ago.” His voice was
now shaking, “I … I have a job. It’s just that I haven’t started it
yet. Not for two more months. We’ve run out of money. I’ve got two
kids.” Finally he wailed, “What am I going to do?! How can I go back
home? How can I look at my wife and tell her there is no food?” Then
he fell silent, looking as if he were embarrassed by his perceived
failure. Failure to make it. Failure to bring home the bacon.
Failure at the great American dream.
“There is a supermarket right down the road. Let me take you there.”
No, no. “I was once in the military, too. We’ll call it brothers in
arms. Okay?” Again, no … an appreciative no. He would not allow it,
the pain was too much, the hurt too deep.
He slowly set the box aside and stepped out of the line. His head
down, he walked across the parking lot, disappearing behind a
battered, rusty van with a washed out decal of what was once a
prancing stallion. The line again moved forward adjusting itself to
swallow the space which he had vacated. It was almost as if he had
never existed at all.
The prophet disappeared behind the rusty van. … others said, "It is
Elijah." And others said, "It is a prophet, like one of the prophets
of old." … Immediately the king sent a soldier of the guard with
orders to bring John's head. He went and beheaded him in the prison,
brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl. Then the
girl gave it to her mother. When his disciples heard about it, they
came and took his body, and laid it in a tomb.
We too kill our prophets, those who call us to respond ... those who
critique our existence. We kill them with our apathy. We kill them
because to live with them is simply too painful.
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
Yepper ... only when it's posted ...
than ... not then
stared ... not starred.
Sigh ...
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Perfect spelling, perfect grammar, perfect thoughts are not a
requirement for posting. Only the spirit of sharing.
As if to punctuate the intertwining of the spiritual and the
political, Mark follows the brief comments about exorcism with the
grisly tale of the beheading of John the Baptist. But how does one
approach the proclamation of this material? It seems more suitable
for the tabloids than for the pulpit in some respects. I can't
really imagine a church drama made of this grisly tale. Yet there is
indeed a serious purpose to the tale beyond merely informing us
about a tragic set of events. It serves as a warning about what
happens to a society's prophets. More often than not they are
marginalized by the powerful, and almost as often they die
prematurely. The story serves as a foreshadowing of what will happen
to Jesus. But John is more than just a foreshadowing, he is a
prototype of Christ. This text also serves as a warning to disciples
who would take up their own crosses and follow Jesus. As Dietrich
Bonhoeffer once said, when Christ calls a person, he calls him to
come and die. As such, it serves as a corrective to a portrait of
discipleship that suggests it is merely a matter of devoted study to
the teacher's words, or of praising him for his miracles, or of
confessing the truth about the Master.
So, should one speak about the cost of being faithful to God? Should
one preach on corruption in high places? Would a moralistic teaching
about the dangers of making rash oaths suffice? I have even heard an
unfair use of this text to generalize about the wiles of women. But
if this text has anything to tell us, it's not so much about the
machinations of women caught in a corrupt patriarchal system as
about the way power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts ultimately,
especially weak men in power such as Herod. We are told that Herod
knew John to be a righteous and holy man and that he even protected
him, until of course he concluded it was more important to pretect
his own reputation, his honor rating in the eyes of his sycophants,
than to be a person of integrity. This story also however raises a
serious moral dilemma: Is it more important to be a just and
righteous and fair person or to be a person whose word is his bond?
Would the less evil thing have been for Herod to violate his rash
oath and save John's life, or not? Mark does not tell us his opinion
on this subject, as there are no editorial asides at this juncture.
While being a promise keeper is often a good thing, it in part
depends on what sort of promises one has made, and whether they are
in accord with God's will in the first place.
My strange litle mind is toying with the phrase: "Don't lose your
head".
We can "lose our heads" when we make rash statements, like Herod did
in promising "anything". We wish we could take back what we said,
but it is too late. We "just lost our head".
We can literally or figuratively "lose our heads" when we stick our
necks out and make judgments against those who are in a position to
exercise power over us.
But, most important, don't lose your head - don't lose Christ, as
your head, and as head of the church. We may get into trouble with
individuals or the powers of this world, but we should never lose
track of the one who is the true and only head, Jesus Christ our
Lord. John the baptist felt compelled to speak for God and to speak
out against Herod's adultery, even though he lost his head for it.
Surely he knew that he would lose something, at least his freedom,
for what he said, but his "Head" told him to do it anyway. Maybe
John did not lose his head, but actually found it. JRW in OH
Just what extent would any of us go to to keep from looking bad in
front of our friends?
Sally in GA
To Sally in GA -
And perhaps that's the point! John was a straight shooter, and told
Herod that what he was doing was wrong. Herod, as reported by Mark,
respected John as a holy man. BUT...Herod couldn't go against what
he was comfortable with, and stand up for one friend against a more
powerful other group of friends. Isn't that what it's all about
sometimes...being able to stand against what the world thinks is
best vs what we know is the right path as the people of God? Herod
couldn't do it - can we??
kf in WA
Found an interesting comment in Ched Myers' commentary on this
passage. He notes who was at the party: "1. his court nobles; 2. his
army officers; 3. leading Galileans. Mark accurately describes the
inner circle of power as an incestuous relationship involving
governmental, military and commercial [and religious?] interests."
I thought this was a bit of an interesting 2 prong jab both at the
adulterous relationship and the unholy union of religion and state.
Amittai Dominic
For a different angle on this text... think about the daughter who
made the request for John's head on a platter. She trusted the
advice of her mother. Perhaps she then later regretted the request?
How often do we trust our earthly friends and family and take their
advice... only later to regret our actions. Again this points to our
desire to look for humanly approval instead of God's.
Shalom, Cheryl in OR
Someone wrote: "King Herod was so caught up in the beauty of his
daughter, he couldn't think straight, caught up in the lust of the
moment. Not only is it appalling that King Herod is lusting over his
own daughter...."
Herod was Salome's stepfather.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Welcome back NailBender! I have missed your reflections and
insights. You contributions open deeper wells of feeling, affectons
and wisdom in my experience. A friend. REL in DE.
Has anyone connected Herodias's dance with the dance that David is
performing in the Old Test. reading this week?
David is dancing out of his joy for God and Herodias is dancing for
the pleasure/entertainment. One is celebrating God, the other
celebrating the individual.
Interesting contrasts...
TB in MN
Just a short note:
John lost his head so Herod could save face. As a Canadian, I just
can't help but think of how some of our more vocal cabinet ministers
resigned or lost their posts because their hearts spoke truths about
the Bush administration that the powers that be didn't want to
hear...
RevEd in Ontario posts
To: Amittai Dominic
From: Oklahoma Irishman
Recent book on the King James Version of the Bible: The author says,
"Before you even get to the text, the KJV has on the title page,
'Authorized by King James . . .'". This translation of the Bible was
a government project, therefore the mistranslations are intentional
and the reliance on these changes in the text have warped our faith
for centuries.
Keep after this angle on the text.
Remember what happens to the messenger at the end of the dance!
Nail-Bender in NC, welcome back too. I haven't seen you on the site
for quite awhile, and it is real good to see you making
contributions again.
I have been thinking that everyone in this week's scriptural story
is "sick." Even John the Baptist may have his problems. He is
judgmental and moralistic. He may be more "moral" than "spiritual."
(That is why I don't follow John but Jesus). He incures attack and
defensiveness from those he judges. They don't change much. Would
Jesus have interacted with Herod and his new family the same way?
What results did John want? What results would Jesus want? Clearly
Herod is a ding-bat, and his new wife is a sick murderer. (What did
Herod see in her? She must have had some good qualities?). The
step-daughter is a pawn in a dysfunctional family. I don't like the
violence and the stupidity of the players in this story - they have
an "insanity" or a "sickness" which leads to evil.
I do think, though, that the reason we need to stay in the spiritual
business is because the kind of stupidity and "sickness" that these
people play out in the story, is played out in the lives of many
people today. Is there any way that we can relate to the actions of
Herod or Herodias or the step-daughter, or of John? Is there a
better way?
How does good spirituality cause us to not seek happiness in
troubled people, to not seek revenge on people who criticize us, and
to not make stupid, insane decisions? Did Herod and Herodias have
good souls, that were buried under fragile and sick egos? Would
Jesus have tried to unearth those souls?
Brent in Pincher
KH was wrong to marry his bother’s wife.
KH was wrong to put JB in jail for stating the truth.
KH was wrong to find pleasure in his step-daughter’s dancing to the
point of losing his senses.
KH was wrong to make a promise just to feed his narcissism.
KH was wrong to put a man to death just to save face.
At each step in the process KH messed up. He made blunder after
blunder. He seemed to be on a ride he could not get off.
But mostly King Herod was wrong to assume that Jesus was John the
Baptist resurrected.
His biggest mistake was not to come to an understanding of Jesus.
Even after all his blunders (sin) Jesus was his answer and yet he
could not see who Jesus is because he was blinded by his guilt and
sin. One must understand who Jesus is in order to accept His
forgiveness and redemption. Bt in IN
To Brent in Pincher: Don't be so sold on Jesus seeking to play nice
with Herod. In Luke 13:32 He calls Herod a Fox. I don't think it was
meant as a term of endearment. RevIsrael
Oklahoma Irishman, thanks for the good chuckle.
Amittai Dominic
Hello. I was a licensed lay pastor for 6 years and relied upon all
of your wisdom weekly. In 2000, I relinquished my churches as I was
teaching full time and it became too difficult to not have a sabboth.
I still visit almost daily as part of my spiritual food on the
journey. So thank you for feeding me. Here's something that struck
me. Last week's scripture focused on the healing of two
daughters(Jesus called the older bleeding woman "daughter" and the
daughter of Jarius) Both are healed. This week I see hatred in 2
daughters for men of God. The OT scripture refers to the daughter of
Saul hating David. And although this scripture doesn't actually use
the word hate, we see the destruction of a man of God. Two daughters
used for the glory of God last week. Two daughters used to attack
God. Anything here? LHS
I've been reading James Carroll's book "Constantine's Sword - The
Church and the Jews." Using this book as a resource, these are the
thoughts that are coming together for me, this morning, regarding
this week's text.
In the era of Jesus, there was a terrible war between the Roman
Empire and the Jews. The empire was a totalitarian state, in which
the emperor was god, people were controlled by fear and violence,
and "civility" was won by brutality. In the century around the time
of Jesus, one out of every three Jews died in the hands of the
Romans. That's incredible carnage.
There was no separation between religion and politics back then. The
Jewish people were not a unified group. There was not one type of
Jew or one type of Jewish reponse to the oppression and aggression
of the Romans.
The Sadducees aligned with power. The Pharisees sought liberation
through adherance to Mosaic law. The Essenes withdrew and
cloistered. The Zealots were either pacifist resisters or practiced
violent revolution.
It seems John the Baptist would have been a pacifist zealot. He was
a "radical spiritualist." He wasn't violent, nor proposed violence.
But as a pacifist he wasn't passive either. He spoke and acted in
such a way that endangered his life.
The question might be: "how do we, as followers of Jesus, challenge
oppression and aggression today?" It seems Hitler counted on the
silence of the churches in his time. The Vietnam war was largely met
by the silence of the American churches.
As Jesus was an evangelist of love, how does he call his followers
to resist evil and seek justice and challenge oppression in the way
of love? He wasn't a Sadducee, a Pharisee, an Essene, or a Zealot.
Yet he was a Jew, who knew God and wanted love to be paramount. What
was his approach, what is his approach?
Brent in Pincher
A pastor at our local text study brought some resources from
textweek.com. In them was one which suggested the contrast between
being an admirer of Jesus (or John) versus being a follower. Herod
was a great admirer of holy men, but was also unwilling to heed
their message. I see him as conflicted and trapped. I also see that
in many modern people--admiring of Jesus/Christianity, but reluctant
to surrender to the message.
Jim in Iowa
Just wondering about the way Mark seems to be paralleling John and
Jesus. In a way Jesus is to be the vindication of John, powerless,
killed by those with power:
v15 - John confused with Elijah, like Jesus v16 - Jesus confused
with John raised from the dead! No, this isn't the resurrected John
- but surely here is the resurrection hope of John. If only Herod
knew!!! v17 - Powers opposed to John for perverse reasons. Here the
ruler is Herod, for Jesus it will be Pilate; Here the persecuter is
Herodias, for Jesus it will be the Sanhedrin; Here the ruler gives a
choice to others as to what he shall do - as he does for Jesus, but
here the choice is up to half his kingdom, for Jesus the alternative
is Barabbas. Both are arrested and put in prison. Both have their
body laid in the tomb.
Surely Mark's point isn't to overshadow John with Jesus, but to see
John as Jesus writ large and that Jesus is the hope and vindication
of John. John's body will remain, lying darkened in a tomb, but the
resurrection is coming. Even John's activity ceases and waits in
death for the activity of the Saviour.
Point for us: what we do for the kingdom, even if it seems to end in
death or hopelessness, will be vindicated by the King of the
kingdom. As much as our lives reflect Jesus and his Kingdom - so
much will be vindicated.
In Christ,
Paul somewhere in the South Atlantic!
Just wondering about the way Mark seems to be paralleling John and
Jesus. In a way Jesus is to be the vindication of John, powerless,
killed by those with power:
v15 - John confused with Elijah, like Jesus v16 - Jesus confused
with John raised from the dead! No, this isn't the resurrected John
- but surely here is the resurrection hope of John. If only Herod
knew!!! v17 - Powers opposed to John for perverse reasons. Here the
ruler is Herod, for Jesus it will be Pilate; Here the persecuter is
Herodias, for Jesus it will be the Sanhedrin; Here the ruler gives a
choice to others as to what he shall do - as he does for Jesus, but
here the choice is up to half his kingdom, for Jesus the alternative
is Barabbas. Both are arrested and put in prison. Both have their
body laid in the tomb.
Surely Mark's point isn't to overshadow John with Jesus, but to see
John as Jesus writ large and that Jesus is the hope and vindication
of John. John's body will remain, lying darkened in a tomb, but the
resurrection is coming. Even John's activity ceases and waits in
death for the activity of the Saviour.
Point for us: what we do for the kingdom, even if it seems to end in
death or hopelessness, will be vindicated by the King of the
kingdom. As much as our lives reflect Jesus and his Kingdom - so
much will be vindicated.
In Christ,
Paul somewhere in the South Atlantic!
I know its late friday and most will probably not see this, but I am
kicking around the significance of Herods statement "John whom I
beheaded" in Vs 16. Not "that my wife tricked me into beheading" or
other excuses. It seems that Herod is accutely aware of his
situation and sin, as many of us are but we find ourselves consumed
by it. Herod is often lumped into the group of evil rulers as Nero
Hitler, Ghangis Kahn and the like for his brutal deadly rein. David
McKenna in his commentary makes note of the sayings of the day such
as It is better to be Herod's pig, than Herod's son because the pig
lives longer" or "we name our sons John but our dogs Herod". It
seems there is a point in which we no longer even try to justify our
sin but just are consumed by it. Its almost ironic that it is Jesus
who he thinks is the reincarnated "ghost" of one of the victims of
his all consuming life of sin. Yet it is Jesus that offers the hope
of forgivness and life after such consuming sin
Mark in SW Wa
Eric remarked: "Someone wrote: "King Herod was so caught up in the
beauty of his daughter, he couldn't think straight, caught up in the
lust of the moment. Not only is it appalling that King Herod is
lusting over his own daughter...."
Herod was Salome's stepfather.
Blessings, Eric in OH"
Eric, you may want to re-read the text. The gentleman who
contributed this idea is actually on the money. Although
historically speaking you may be correct, it is not quite clear who
Herodias is. Actually, I myself am confused who Herodias is. The
text seems to indicate it was his daughter, but commentaries seem to
suggest it was his niece. Can anyone offer a better explanation that
Eric (the pompous one)?
Talk about unclear--what's unclear is why anyone would feel the need
to refer to either Eric in OH or his comment as "the pompous one."
Whatever the relationship between Herod and the dancing girl, she
was clearly the daughter of his wife, who had been married to his
brother--she may be his niece, but that would also make her his
stepdaughter. Either way, my reading indicated that Herod's lust
after her was meant to be taken as scandalous by the Jewish readers
of the day.
Again, I'm not sure where "pompous" enters into any of it. Please
forgive me if there is a joke I have missed.
Laura in S. Texas
I'm trying to think about the role of the prophet then (Amos and
John the Baptist) and now ... the church.
Specifically thinking about how the church might be called to
critique society at large. This might apply to Iraq, or in England
the debate raging at the moment about gay clergy.
I'm finding it hard to know how to expand on this without being
specific and getting myself in hot water one way or another .... but
I guess that's how it works when the church speaks prophetically!
I believe idea of Herod's lust after the girl may be off base too.
The Greek word Mark uses seems to lend itself to referring to the
dauhter as a young girl: pre-puberty.
It would be as if one's young cute daughter pleased one just in her
"cuteness." That the girl went to ask her mother what she should
request underscores her innocence.
Pr.del in Ia
Some thoughts sparked by the comments on "Constantine's Sword":
David's dance was seen to be an act of worship, but it likely had
political motivation re: centralizing the government of Israel and
legitimizing it through an extravagant display of worshiping God.
The dance for Herod's guests was intended to be entertainment for a
political crowd, but it had religious implications. After all, the
church fathers saw fit to include it in the canon.
And there's no connection between religion and politics?
Religion is often what we say we believe. Politics may be the way we
express it in our lives. Problems happen for us when the two aren't
compatible.
There may even be a connection here to the unity that is talked
about in Ephesians, and I'd be happy to hear if someone else sees
what that is.
I wrote most of my sermon for this week some time ago, but when I
looked at it last night, I realized it is too harsh for the
communities to whom I am preaching. I see this text as an example of
careless decisions that lead to dire results. Herod carelessly
offered his beautiful step-daughter anything she wanted, doubtless
expecting that she would ask for some jewel or trinket. Instead, she
asked for John the Baptist's head, and Herod feels compelled to
comply, because otherwise he would be going against his word and
would be shamed by his partygoers. Regretfully, he kills John in
order to keep his word. I am trying to go in the direction of
preaching about how careless decisions WE make can also have dire
consequences. In my original sermon, I talk about drunk driving,
harming the environment, and the decisions Big Tobacco have made
that have resulted in the deaths of so many smokers. I think the
first two examples are okay, but I don't want to focus on them too
much. I would like the soften my message somehow and perhaps talk
about less deadly forms of careless decision making that still have
painful consequences. Any ideas?
By the way, Doug in Erie, I agree with you that many will blame the
women in this text, the "seductresses." However, it was Herod who
was the King and who ultimately had to make the decision to kill
John. It was HIS foolishness in offering the gift, not Herodias'
evil wish, that resulted in John's head on a platter. This does not
excuse the request of Herodias or her daughter, but it was Herod,
not the women, who had John beheaded.
Desiree in Sacramento
