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Scripture Text (NRSV)

 

Mark 13:1-8

 

13:1 As he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large buildings!"

13:2 Then Jesus asked him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."

13:3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately,

13:4 "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign that all these things are about to be accomplished?"

13:5 Then Jesus began to say to them, "Beware that no one leads you astray.

13:6 Many will come in my name and say, 'I am he!' and they will lead many astray.

13:7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is still to come.

13:8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. This is but the beginning of the birthpangs.

 

Comments:

 

I'm just beginning to mull over the text, and what strikes me the most is why a disciple would say, "What large stones/buildings!" Does this indicate it was their first time in Jerusalem or the first time coming out of the Temple? I know the Temple was supposed to be spectacular, but I find it curious that a disciple would say something like that. Since right now I only have questions, does anyone have any answers? Susan, Jacksonville,FL


Mark (and I think Matthew and Luke, too) only tell of one journey of Jesus into Jerusalem. It is John who indicates Jesus had been there before this trial and Crucifixion trip. However, being a devout Jew, wouldn't Jesus have gone to Jerusalem for Passover several times......?

For excellent commentary on the Temple itself, I am going with William Barclay's Daily Study Bible of Mark. He describes the vastness of those stones, why they were used, etc. Barclay explains that the Temple, being on a hill, needed to have supporting walls built under it to level it off. These stones were 40'L by 18'H, 12'W. I'm guessing these truly massive stones were in the back, and not seen clearly by people at the front side of the Temple who might be casually passing by the hillside, or in the front areas while they carried out their worship. But that's just a guess.

I'm afraid this text is going to give me hives. We're heading into the apocalyptic stuff, which I just don't deal with well. It's not part of my thought process or my belief system. I guess my problem is I don't like what's been made of it; as I've stated before, it's become the "scare people into faith" method of evangelizing, which I deplore.

I'll be looking for some guidance as long as we're on this topic.

KyHoosierCat


"the beginning of the birthpangs."

The bad news is the labor...the good news is the kingdom that will be born.

Christians can anticipate the Coming Day but it will be a great and terrible day. cf. Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

It is great because of the final consumation, but dreadful because there will be judgement.

Do a search in the OT on the day of the Lord. The message seems to be: don't long too much for the day of the lord because many will be judged, especially you.

I guess now is the time to experience mercy and repentance before it's too late.

Many long for the coming kingdom, (Marantha,Lord Jesus) but it will be a day of judgement as well as vindication.

John near Pitts.


I can't understand why the RCL has this text at this point in the Christian Year, and about 3 weeks from now...Advent 1...voila! The Synoptic Parallels or the original mini-apocalypse, Mark 13. Go figure.

Wish I could bring clarity to this task, but first I'm going to muddy the waters further. Perhaps Jesus did not himself actually predict the imminent coming of the Day of the Lord.

There are some scholars (e.g. The Jesus Seminar) who believe Jesus never preached an Apocalyptic Coming of the Son of Man; some suggest apocalypticism came into the early church from followers of John the Baptist. The predictions of a coming Day of the Lord would have been eagerly accepted by early Christians, living under the incredible poverty and oppression of the Roman Empire.

proto-Mark is written about the time of the Roman siege of Jerusalem by Titus (c. 68 A.D.); many Jewish Christians in Judea and Galilee might have seen the tribulations as "the beginning of the birth-pangs." In Mark 13 Jesus predicts all these things will come to pass within the lifetime of his original hearers/readers of GMark, and 1970 years later we are still awaiting their arrival.

So, if you have problems with Christian apocalyptic, maybe I've given you away off the hook. But it's not that simple:

Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. Mark 13:33

In many cultures and among many people there exists an awareness...a collective premonition of the Day of the Lord, a final reckoning, when all the wrongs will be paid for and good will have its ultimate triumph over evil. It rings true in our hearts.

Jesus may be saying we should not be impressed with all the incredible wonders the Human Race is capable of building and making. The buildings of ancient Jerusalem did not endure but the Word in Christ did. We need to follow him as clearly as we can.

Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one leads you astray.

Da Rev in CT


verse 13:8 really speaks to me. Birthpangs! I understand this. All these attachs, suicide bombings, September 11ths, "shocks and awes", wow, these are birthpains. We have been working for centuries on how to assist mothers and fathers to deliver babies, we need to reflect on our learnings so this birth of God's new creation, is according to God's purpose.

Shalom

bammamma


I dislike these texts as well- but isn't it strange how we seem to have a morbid fascination with the end times. Look at the popularity of the LEFT BEHIND Series. Luther thought he was in the end times with the Ottoman Empire standing at the gates of Europe with a hungry look...

We always think its the end- and I think if we can "predict" or anticipate its coming- then we have more control- we can prepare

But Jesus is saying "don't be alarmed" Jesus is saying dont follow everyone who claims to have the answer

What if the second coming is really about our own deaths? That we can not know the day or time? Don't look to wars and famines as being "signs" that the Day of the Lord is here.

The Day of the Lord is a very Jewish concept- It appears many of the prophets but for some reason Joel sticks in my mind- (guess I ought to go see why)

And to rbing in the Gospels- aren't birthpangs the begiining of something wonderful?

Michele in PA


In the last week of his life, Jesus warned his disciples concerning trials that were to come upon them and upon the world. He exhorts the listener: Do not be alarmed.

The end of all things is not a concept or idea limited to religious communities. It is a significant part of the discussion in the sciences of physics and cosmology. Known sa the necrotic principle, it seems a "fact" that the end of the universe shall come. Just as scientists know that death is necessary to the continuation of life, their formulas and observations indicate that either the universe shall collapse back upon itself or will eventually spin apart. The book "The End of the World and The Ends of God" contains many interesting essays that provide a window to this discussion.

Christian worship is one place in our society and culture where every week witness is given to the end of things. Witness is given to a view of time that is at odds with the chronos of the world. In worship, the end of this world is proclaimed, confessed, sung, and prayed for. We are given stories and metaphors, songs and liturgies that enact this conversation and speak of God's participation in this process of ending. In such a gathering, in such a community, the insights of the community of scientists concerning the end of the cosmos can find a place and be welcomed as the community seeks orientation and integration for life in the world and for the new life to come.

Our congregations benefit when we speak the promise of the end. Such proclamation not only destabilizes structures and institutions that claim ultimate allegiances, but also provides hope for all seeking light in these shadowed days. For unlike the scientist, we are able to give a witness that the endings are but the beginning of birth pangs that usher in life eternal.


Some things loom so large in our sight, be they buildings or crises or traditions, it may seem they will endure forever. But what is truly lasting?

We know that the temple, which so captured the awe of the unnamed disciple in the first verse of today's reading, was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. From this passage, we learn that Mark's community believed that Jesus knew it would fall. Either Jesus is predicting that specific downfall or he is speaking more generally to the reality that eventually all human structures and systems fall. Scholars are uncertain about whether or not Mark's gospel was written before, during, or after 70 CE. Jesus' words would have taken on even more power if the community were hearing them as the temple was falling or in its aftermath.

What would also fall with the physical building of the temple? The whole structure of the Jewish faith at that time would be changed. Everything Jesus had been challenging of the authority and power located in that structure would come apart. We know of two groups within Judaism who existed before the temple's destruction, the Sadducees and the Pharisees. However, only the Pharisees survived the changes of this period. How does the community that follows Jesus -- his disciples, Mark's community, and we -- survive in times of collapse and turmoil? Jesus attempts to prepare his followers for times such as these.

Jesus focuses on the issue of deception. Is it true that in times of turmoil people are more easily deceived? Does our fear and uncertainty cause us to follow any and all claims of stability and authority? Is it "any port in a storm"? Those who preach absolutes and claim to know what's happening and what to do about it seem to attract a crowd. Popularity is not necessarily a hallmark of wisdom or insight. Jesus tells his followers not to be alarmed and not to allow themselves to be led astray. They are to keep their focus on him, not on those who falsely claim his authority.

This chapter of Mark is among the number of passages in the Bible that are apocalyptic, that describe the end of time. Common among these passages are descriptions of disaster and destruction, of things coming undone. In Mark the time of upheaval is not only the end but also a beginning. In the final words of this section of Mark's apocalypse, Jesus reveals, "This is but the beginning of the birth pangs."

Birth pangs. New creation. Jesus prepares disciples and followers of this age and every age for transformation. That which lasts and endures will be God's renewing of life in God's good purposes, according to God's time. Speculation about when and where and how misses the point. The main point is that God remains sovereign, and God's promises can be trusted. Even in the midst of suffering, even in the midst of upheaval, rebirth and hope are the ways of God. What lasts in this world are not impressive constructions of architecture meant to convey the reach of human power, but the birthing of God's sovereign realm, the reach of divine grace.


To Da Rev in CT. I can work with the Titus-led destruction of the Temple directon. I tend to see Jesus' prediction of it as a "vision" of the end of the old order (with hard labor pains??) and the start of a new order (a birth??). With the downing of the Temple, worship will have to be centered somewhere else - and for Christianity, of course, that would be in Jesus, and a new journey for God's people will begin.

KyHoosierCat If this double-posts, I apologize in advance - it's acting up on me.....


Birthpangs - the beginning of something new. Sometimes old things, old structures, old systems, (in the church?) need to fall away so that something new (and appropriate for the times?) can come to life....early thoughts. God is in the midst of the turmoil of change. revjaw


I'm fearful of doing this passage also, comfort level with apocalyptic is not very high for me, though I have taken a considerable amount of courses that dealt with it in both OT and NT. Obviously, didn't stick well :)

One book I can highly recommend is Craig Hill's In God's Time, published about a year or so ago. In fact, there is even a study guide that goes with it to do with classes. He is definitely not a fan of the Left Behind series, so if you are, be forewarned.

I'm really looking to this site (and listening to the discussion) to try to find some handle on this passage. I don't want to bail and go to Hebrews, but it sure would be easier. Sigh.

MM in PA


Why do bad things happen (to good? people)? One of the quick answers that most of us proclaim is that this is not the intentional will of God. In other words, God does not single you out for a car wreck because you (a)forgot to tithe last week, (b)looked with lust at the clerk at the supermarket, or (c) or even said a bad word when your least favorite politician made his/her last set of campaign promises. The god of retribution is not the god on the throne of our hearts.

Then why is it that when we hear apochalyptical text, we immediately assume that all of these things are God's intentional will? They are within God's permissive will to be sure, but why do we immediately assume that they are a part of God's plan? (I'm not pushing for a dualism that casts Satan into the front either.) Seems to me that human's have been doing lots of things to each other for a pretty long time-- wars, rumors of wars, etc. are not exactly foreign to our experience. Neither are famines. Earthquakes are more problematic but the more we learn, the more we are discovering how humanbeings are twisting and reshaping the environment. SOme of that becomes speculative and I don't want to go too far with it.

However, when you look at vs. 7-8, what is being said is that all the trauma that we experience -- that any have experienced-- are birthpangs of the kingdom. And how many over the years have presented themselves with messianic pretentions? The kingdom comes with God's timing. Of course, in times of severe suffering, we pray for God's redemption.

One more comment and I'm out of here: In spite of what Barclay says, I wouldn't quote the size of those stones. The ones visible at the Western wall are impressive enough-- but they are considerably shy of 40'. If the bible said 40', then I would have to deal with it, but I don't need Barclay to get me into explanations that I don't know how to make.

Walt in Texas


When I was a smart-alecky teenager many (OK, many, many) years ago, my friends and I had a running put-down: That was impressive, but not very.

The Temple is impressive, but not very -- when measured against the creation. A charismatic leader is impressive, but not very -- when measured against Christ. The power of war is impressive, but not very -- when measured against the power of God's redemptive love. The Roman Empire is impressive, but not very -- when measured against the kingdom/reign of God in Jesus Christ. The ground shaking is impressive, but not very -- when measured against shaking up our lives. A famine is impressive, but not very -- when measured agains the hunger the world has for a word from God. All of this is to the kingdom what birthpangs are to new life!

OLAS


I know the actual size of the stones is not of primary importance here, but Josephus, the great historian, puts the size of the stones at 45 cubits long, 5 cubits high, 6 cubits wide. Since a cubit is about 18", that would make these things massive (67.5 x 9 x 7.5 feet) even if they weren't the 40 x 18 x 12 feet Barclay portrays.

The point is, they were supposedly solid, would last many generations, and they were (almost literally) the foundation of the then-current faith. But, as big and strong as they were, they crumbled when assailed by foes. The Kingdom built on Jesus Christ will never crumble, unless it does so internally. Nothing external will ever make it fall.

KHC


I am looking for a fresh perspective to these passages about Jesus' teachings of the end times.

I have been to Jerusalem; I have seen those large stones under ground holding up the temple mount (there are as big as reported!) I have seen those large stones in a heap of rubble uncovered by the digs (the temple fell as predicted by Jesus and reported by Josepheus). And if this was just the birth pangs of the kingdom of God coming into the world God so loves, what will the rest of God's loving labor be like?

I am listening to and looking for what other "temple" human religious institutions God has in mind that need to be brought down inorder for the Good News to be lifted up, so I/we might get out of God's way and beware not to be lead astray by a false Messiah.

Rob in Nebraska


I'm not sure you have to look very far for "temples" that need to be brought down so God's Kingdom can be lifted up. We all have our stubborn, "know it all" approach to God and Christ, where we fit the Scriptures to our own prejudices and desires. I am as guilty as anyone on this, even as I rail against the Biblical Pharisees and the modern-day fundamentalists who are smitten with a "last days" enthusiasm and haughty judments of others. We are all our own personal "temples" of enlightenment. Mine is just better than yours, right?

Who knows? Maybe America, with all our excesses, pride and self-sufficiency will need to tumble down before God can be lifted up in this land. And I mean more than the sporatic lurches we make toward national piety when we get shaken up. I mean one day we will have to decide between running "hot" with God or running "cold" with God, and stop being so frustratingly tepid as a nation. America has become its own "temple" that has too many people declaring we don't need anything more because we already have it all. I'm sure Israel felt the same way when they had the Temple standing there on the hilltop.

Anonymous


I hear you, but your words, "as a nation," give me pause. Too many times, when a religion is chosen by a nation (or by the leaders of a nation), it becomes faulty. Hitler claimed to be Christian, so did reverend Jones.

I believe that we, as Christians, need to take seriously our responsibility in government, without forcing others to believe as we do. If we are faithful, and do as we ought to do as Christians, they will see our love and be drawn to the truth. Sadly, too often, we display hate, and only fanatics are drawn to that.

Sometimes a government has to be harsh, and that harshness is seen as hatred. If we tie our religion to the nation, every harsh act will reflect on our religion, and we will send people scurrying to the hills, away from the truth.

I hope we as Christians can be faithful servants within the government, without saying that the government (i.e. the nation) must be Christian.

Michelle


Susan in Jacksonville: please drop me a line at: reiver1@bellsouth.net. I'm in Jax, too. Pastor Rick in Fl


I was struct with the concept of birthpangs. I know little about them, but there was a man named Ferdinand Lamaze who knew an awful lot about it. I did a little research on the Lamaze method. I found out that it involved three basic elements which offered a means for the mother to stay awake and aware during childbirth. 1. Helping the mother focus by utilizing breathing techniques. 2. Offering a means to cope with pain through positive encouragement. 3. Allowing the father into the delivery room for support and coaching.

If you read a little beyond verse 8, Jesus might be giving us some Lamaze training to remain faithful in the midst of adversity. Notice how the following connect to the above.

1. You can remain faithful in the face of adversity by staying focused on Christ. Then Jesus began to say to them, "Beware that no one leads you astray. Many will come in my name and say, "I am he!' and they will lead many astray.

2. You can remain faithful in the face of adversity by viewing adversity as an opportunity to express your faith. "As for yourselves, beware; for they will hand you over to councils; and you will be beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings because of me, as a testimony to them. And the good news must first be proclaimed to all nations.

3. You can remain faithful in the face of adversity by allowing Christ to work and speak through you. When they bring you to trial and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say; but say whatever is given you at that time, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

First time post. Just thought it was interesting JK


Long time listener, first time contributer... :)

Having drunk freely, and with appropriate attribution, from the well of collective wisdom here, I felt that my thoughts for this week might be of some use in sparking dialogue... My sermon title has already raised some eyebrows: MY, WHAT BIG STONES YOU HAVE

Following some initial responses from our staff and the signage folks ("Somebody better rethink that sign...")I am increasingly convinced that we have a great challenge in letting folks struggle with their preconceived notions of what we are up to. As a result, I have asked that the scripture passage be withheld from the bulletin and the sign in order to allow for a greater impact of the reading. So as not to bore you all here are some bullets of thoughts for this: 1) When you think of stones, what comes to mind? Stones for an altar, David's stones, Water from a stone, Stoning the sinful, Peter as "the rock," Paul's stumbling block, stepping stones, healing stones, the Rolling Stones, gallstones, "Sticks and Stones...," Some read the sermon title and thought something altogether different... 2) Each image conjures a unique sense of one's own expectation of previous experience of stones, especially BIG STONES... However, I used the phrasing in the title to evoke another image...My what big _______ you have... comes from? 3) You guessed it...Lil' Red Riding Hood, (enter three choir members to sing "who's afraid of the BBW?")The BBW is a central image of childhood fear...3 pigs, Wolf & 7 Kids, The little boy who cried Wolf, Even teenage years were filled with Thriller, American werewolf in London, As we get older the wolves get scarier, but always they are out to get you...we're all afraid that when we build our lives the BBW will "huff and puff..." or when get to the safety of Grandmas house (church)the wolves in the sheepskin are waiting... My, what big robes you have, what big bibles, choirs, sanctuaries... From the Gospel of Mark (read text inserting "Huff and puff imagery and "The better to lead you with..." - Don't be fooled... 4) How is it that we get fooled so easily by the wolves? Do we really not see the stark contrast between ideologies and agendas other than Christ's?!? Or are we too busy building individually and corporately with stones of self-service and aggrandizement? Guess what the good news is that the BBW (Big Brother of Wondrous Love...??? still working on that...any suggestions) will Hug and tug down the walls of our fear and lead us with a servant's heart to the birthplace of a kingdom...recognizing the shepherd requires that you spend time with the flock and that you see/hear/feel the authentic presence of our Savior. If however, we only visit once in a while or get caught up in the awe of the buildings that WE have created within and without, or become distracted and insular because of the worlds travails, then we may not recognize the liberating face that will is longing for birth in our lives....calling us ever forward in faith and love

Oh well, very long, but felt the need...

opus2003


Someone said this text seems out of place. I disagree. Certainly the First Advent crept up on the Jewish people, catching them unaware; the Second Advent is just as likely to creep up on us, catching us unaware.

Perhaps I am wrong, but when I see the apocolyptic writings, I automatically think of His return. Am I the only one here who links the two?

If not, then why is it that we as Christians are so uncomfortable about talking about Christ coming again, the "Day of the Lord?" Do we not say during Holy Communion, " Christ has died; Christ has Risen; Christ will Come Again!" (I must admit the exclamation point is mine; some congregations mutter this when it should be a resounding "Yes!")

As I read this Scripture I find myself thinking about the cauldron of current world events. I'm not really one to spend a great amount of time thinking about prophecy, eschatology, etc., but in the newsroom last night I found myself talking to a couple of twentysomethings about the possibility that God continues to deal with nations, and use them for His purpose. I know there are some who believe that He no longer does so, that He only deals with the individual. However, these days I'm not so sure. The words of Jeremiah in The Potter's House continue to resonate with me.

The good news is this: The walls will someday come down, but God's love and grace will continue to stand.

PastorBuzz in TN

A Postscript: I really don't put much stock in The Jesus Seminar. Frankly, I wish they'd take their marbles and go home. It seems to me that the more doubt you cast on what Jesus said and didn't say, at some point you would have to ask "Did anybody really say anything in Scripture?"


Oh, by the way: I've never read any of the "Left Behind" books. Some years ago (maybe 15 or more?) I read Tim LaHaye's book on Revelation. So, I figured that was enough for me to get the gist of his theology. PastorBuzz


With mankind, it's Look at what I have done, big buildings, splendor. But, we cant do anything without God! This hits us hard now, after 9-11. Perhaps if we placed Jesus in our time, like the Movie The Judas Project did. Jesus and his fly fishermen and IRS guy,Matt. Maybe they just came out of the Church near the Twin Towers...with a WOW! Jesus said not a stone left. Wars and rumors of Wars. Earthquakes in wierd place, the threat of that one again on New Madrid, faultline near Mississippi. Take Heart these things have to come before JOy of the Lord can be fulfilled. Clerically Blonde on West Ohio


Agree with you Buzz. I think that way too, Christ Second Advent... UMC's say it in ritual of Communion. Do we not really believe it? Are you a preterist? (new word that I learned when readinf Dr. David Reagon's Wrath and Glory)

I asked my Seminary Professor about what UMC's believed about the second coming just a few weeks ago. We were studying Pioneer Women Preacher. Of course, we got in to the second Great Awakening and things they were a changin' in USA. Also, Rev. Miller's ideas on advent- the millerite movement.

Rev. Miller grew up baptist, then as a young man got into the new thinking- Voltaire, Locke etc...then he had a conversion experience and went back to his baptist roots. Now, Rev. Miller spoke at alot of demoninations. Jesus' returning was believed, accepted by Methodist, Baptist Presby's etc... but someone took it too far 1844 1845 month of October ring a bell? People sold everything, and waited on hills... nothing happened... so your mainline denomination steer clear of that now... My professor said UMC's dont really get into the apocalyptic things..

Well, Country UMC preachers in WV preached on it. "THE RAPTURE" UMC's SING it- Meet you in the Rapture and Sweet Hour of Prayer- from Mount Pisquah's lofty height I view my home and take my flight. (I grew up hearing it)

Sounds like UMC's more dont ask dont tell stuff if you ask me??

Through the years the Methodist Church has lost some great preachers, 1845-the lady who began 7th day adventists, read their sanctification doctrine- her methodist upbringing followed her. Methodist Preachers- mostly Women to Disciples of Christ. From Norman Vincent Peale who went to Dutch reformed from the UMC. (By the way, I serve in the charge where Norman Peale's dad preacher-he was a boy here in Ohio.) And dont forget Oral Roberts was a Methodist Preacher. If everyone that began as a Methodist stayed in WOW UMC would be huge today!

So, here's my take on UMC and eschatolgy(sp). premillenial's are welcome, ammilennial's are welcome, post Millenial's too... Preterist welcome Because we have OPEN MINDS OPEN HEARTS AND OPEN DOORS!!!! Clerically Blonde in West Ohio (BISHOP OUGH IS THE BEST #1!)


Beware that no one leads you astray.

I had an experience this weekend. A couple in my congregation who are great people and hard workers invited me to a weekend seminar. I should have been leary because of the hours and other things but I am super nieve and I think I have been impressed with these people.

It was a major cult indoctrination. It is called the Landmark Forum.

It makes me think now of "Beware that no one leads you astray."

One of the things that these cults promise is that if we can get enough people to join then there will be world peace and harmony, so call all your friends.

But Jesus knew different. He knew that wars must take place and even by our beleiving in something or other we are not going to stop them. Jesus was and our preaching should be honest about the human condition.

Certainly this doesn't preclude prayer or diplomacy. What Jesus warns is the same warning throughout the scriptures about false prophets with facile answers or those who tell you what you want to hear. At least the Old Testament false prophets only told the king and the people what they wanted to hear out of cowardice. These cults do it for control.

I am struggling with what to say to the people in my congregation who took me. Are they inviting other people in my congregation? Do I need to protect my sheep?

mspastor in RI


I think my sermon title will be "Thousands of Massive Stones cannot compare to One Solid Rock". Or something very close to that.

KHC


Hi, umm, sorry if this is off topic but i could do with a bit of help. I'm doing a children's talk and sunday school for our service this sunday, and i have absolutely *no idea* of what to do,i was hoping that someone on this board knew something that is quick and simple to set up?

thanks in advance


for KyHoosierCat, and others... This passage fits well into the 'second coming' series (well, not really a series, it's only two sermons) that starts this week. I will 'set the stage' so to speak, for the service on the 23rd, which will be presented by grade school-junior high students in our Christian School. They chose the 2nd coming theme, and are working at three sections of message. Two students will contribute to each section with readings and comments. The sections are as follows: 1> God promised us the Messiah, and that the Messiah would return at 'the end' to make all things new. 2> what we should look for, and what will happen. 3> what we should do while we wait. Obviously this is going to be very simple and basic, but it is wonderful to see such young students wrestling with apocalyptic texts! Please pray for them. The entire service will be presented to God and the congregation by the students, with [almost] no adult leader participation. May God bless us all as we struggle with difficult messages! RevJanet in CNY


As a seminary student I drew this passage to preach before the whole seminary community. I started with a story. When I was 19 and studing economics in college my 3 year old sister came in and asked me to read her a story. I started to read from my econ text. She listened for a bit and said, "I don't like that story." and left. We may not like Mark's story but we have to wrestle with it like Jacob wrestled with God. There are blessings to be found. Sue in Ohio


Dear Friends:

I can't separate my own context from anything lately. But this scripture is speaking to me. I'm afraid I may be reading myself into it in a way that doesn't fit, and I'd like some outside perspective.

Here's where I am. In the midst of a fire ravaged neighborhood. My own home is standing, though those across the street are not. My mother's home, 3 doors down from me, is also gone, with all of its contents. For my family, it feels like total loss. My 90 year old mother is holding up. She says she's been through so much in life that she was better prepared to deal with this loss than many. No one else in our congregation lost homes, but many were displaced. I still do not have telephone services other than my cell phone, which isn't totally reliable, so communication is an issue for the whole congregation.

Now for the scripture: I hear Jesus saying that nothing is permanent--atleast not structures created by people. I also hear him saying that the nature of this world is that we will experience destruction on many scales.

But the word of hope I hear is that God's kingdom is permanent, that God is working with us through these terrible times, and that these times in some way usher in the times of God's creative plan.

I don't hear a message of "tribulation" or prediction of "end times" and I don't associate our personal disaster with those things. But I do believe that the kingdom of God, future and present, is reached by passing through hard times.

Please tell me if any of this is preachable or if I'm so focused on my own mess that I can't think coherently. This is a tough week.

Pam in San Bernardino


Pam in Bernadino, my condolences to all of you who have been ravaged by those fires. We on the other side of the country have continued to pray for all of you.

As to your post about hard times, it reminds me of the biology lesson from 4th grade - if you help a hatchling get out of its shell, it will not have the strength to fly. It must struggle in order to be whole and vital.

KyHoosierCat


Hi, everybody!

Our phone lines were down yesterday, and I was off on Monday (gotta rake those leaves and pine needles), so I'm JUST NOW really sitting down to concentrate on sermonizing.

But first, KHC - thanks for giving me the idea of a letter to God (in the email you sent). In a flash of inspiration on Saturday, I wrote the sermon (yes, on Saturday - I said it was a FLASH of inspiration) as if the widow was standing in line to give her offering and was praying as she was standing there. It went over well, for the most part, though with a little more time I'd work out the metaphors a bit more clearly.

OK - this passage ... it's a toughie for me. All UMC and other mainliners' joking aside, there is a promise of Scripture that there will be an end of time. Whatever it is, however, remains a mystery and in my humble opinion, is best remaining as a mystery. Whenever it is, also is best remaining as a mystery.

My temptation will be to get into the pulpit and try to correct all the LaHaye and his ilk's theology, but our folks in this church aren't all that hung up on the end times.

Jesus keeps responding to the disciples in a riddle-like form. "Look at these stones they're building with!" - "A time will come when all stones are torn down." "When will this be, and how can we tell?" --"Beware no one leads you astray. Don't be alarmed, things will only get worse."

I'm hoping to, rather than linearize this and explain it point by point to fit into our brains, sit with the puzzle, the riddle. The answer to the riddle is that "it's in God's hands, the eschaton, the wars, the crumbling structures, and not your concern nor your responsibility."

Perhaps the profoundest faith of all is to go on with our lives. Live ever more faithfully and you'll be ok.

I've got a refrigerator magnet that says "Jesus is coming!" (then, right below it) "Look busy!"

Live faithfully and looking busy won't be a problem.

OK, this is pretty Simple Simon, but it's Wed and it's a tough text for us mainliners.

BTW: who among us has NOT been accused of "coming in Jesus' name" but is actually a false prophet? Let's face it, SOmeone SOMEwhere is going to say it about us, the same way we say it about LaHaye and Wilkerson.

Sally in GA


Pam in San B.,

Preaching within your context makes for a truly meaningful sermon (IMHO). KHcat speaks for many of us who have held those in CA in our prayers of the people. When people lose so much, faith becomes the beacon of hope in the darkest of times. To add to the analogy of the hatchling, a butterfly will also die if someone tries to assist by cutting open the cocoon. We all gain wisdom, hopefully, from the birthpangs following destruction.

As a therapist, I'd like to caution mspastor in RI, re: the Landmark forum. I know of many who have benefited from this event. People are encouraged to make amends, to live life more fully, to let go of self-centered ideas and to be more in communion with others. It does not mean that these people are giving up their faith but finding ways in which to live out their faith.

As a minister, re: the end times and the second coming...I was once told that if you meet the Messiah on the road, the first thing you should ask is "When are you coming again?"

BB in IL


Maybe it's my off-beat sense of humour but this passage always makes me think of a family outing to the seaside or some large tourist attraction. only ten minutes ago ths kids were screaming from the back of the car "Are we there yet" for the thousandth time and now they are taking everything in but mainly because it's different from being locked up in the car! "Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large buildings!" The disciples have heard Jesus teaching in and araound the Temple for days but all they have done is look at the sites! So he takes them for a stiff bit of exercise to concentrate their minds and, believe me, that walk from Jerusalem up the Mount of Olives does concentrate your mind - on getting air into your lungs! Maybe there is something in here about us only listening superficially and only looking at the surface rather than trying to understand the deeper words that Jesus lays before us. Maybe we don't want to listen too hard because what He askes of us is scary! Hope you don't mind a comment from a guy from across 'The Pond' but I do find these comments really useful each week in getting the brain 'kick-started' on my sermon.

Pete in Wrexham (North Wales) UK

PS: To Walt in Texas: Just turning your words ("Why do bad things happen to good people?") around. Have you read "Why GOOD people do BAD things" by Gerard Vanderhaar (Twenty-Third Publications - ISBN 9780896225718) It's quite an interesting book. Pete


Pam in San Bernadino,

Like KHC and others, please know that you all have been in the prayers of those of us in the East. And even when things have left the news reports, you will remain there. Having lived through Sept 11 while watching the Pentagon burn out my kitchen window, I understand the concept of having a hard time separating your own context from anything. I also understand the concept of off-the-front-pages doesn't mean back-to-normal. I'm grateful your family has survived, but my heart aches for all who have lost so much.

"But the word of hope I hear is that God's kingdom is permanent, that God is working with us through these terrible times, and that these times in some way usher in the times of God's creative plan.

I don't hear a message of "tribulation" or prediction of "end times" and I don't associate our personal disaster with those things. But I do believe that the kingdom of God, future and present, is reached by passing through hard times."

I think that is a strong thought to take from this passage. As I mentioned earlier on, this is an uncomfortable passage for me because I still don't feel I have a handle on it. But sovereignty of God I can handle. Complete trust in God, no matter what, I can handle. Travails before growth, I can handle. Human efforts being ethereal and God's being eternal, I can handle. Now, I don't for a minute think that's ALL this passage is saying, but it's sure a great beginning.

Thanks for your message. Good reminder. Peace be with you and yours, MM in PA


Pam in San Bern. Gee, I have to read your post to discover that your Mom got burned out. I am sorry for the loss, but her attitude is great. I think that your ideas for sermon will definitely preach. My home burned to the ground in 87, and it is amazing what a positive experience that turned out to be! It was much more than an ending, it was a beginning, a time to make amends with loved ones and not-so-loved ones as well. At the retirement community where I am Chaplain, one of our CNAs was speaking with a resident's dtr who had been evacuated from her mountain home (near you). The CNA is from El Salvador and he was reassuring her that all would be well. He said to her, "Oh, you can begin again! This is America! Here you can truly begin again. In my country, if this happened, we would never recover, but here, in US, you will be all right." Kate/Pomona


I don't see this at all as 'apocalyptic'. I see Jesus stating reality. He was a brilliant discerner of the times. He read the seasons.

The temple that Jesus was intent on building, and which lasts for ever, is the sacred temple of the human spirit.

Human structures are impressive. We have a creative gift, just like God in our ability to move mountains, but we are minnows in the area of relationships and loving.

Most people look for strong leadership, authoritive warriors who will protect them from the ravages of life. Insecurity is the major cause of violence. Jesus simply prepared his disciples to be ready for them.

Dr M Scott-Peck in his book "A Road Less Travelled" states right at the beginning of the book. "Life is difficult!" And when we are ready to accept this truth, it no longer is.

To be lead astray, is to think that there is some easier way, than the way of compassionate loving. There isn't, and anything that distracts us from this, is contrary to the gospel of Christ.

Will there be an end? Does there have to be? Do we believe God created this universe or not?

Jesus, was the ultimate realist. He didn't beat about the bush or hide the truth from his disciples. He told them they would have to suffer, and he meant it.

I guess I am intrigued, why we become so pious in the face of this confronting gospel. Big stones. Sure, but even bigger obstacles are the hearts of human beings. These God could not overturn, save through the death of his Son.

Have a great week everyone.

Regards, KGB in Aussie.


In verse 3 we see where jesus sat opposite the temple. Our focus should not be on the church, we should not follow certain pastors we need to be focused upon the chosen one of God. His Son Jesus Christ, whom warned us about our pride in things such as this wonder of the world. We do get led astray, many people, many beautiful things leads our focus away from God, away from the teachings at the feet of Jesus. And if it is not our pride leading us astray it is our fears of the rumors of horrible events. Remember Jesus sat opposite the temple, for everything the temple stood for, everything that took our focus away from God, Jesus was the opposite of that.

May God Bless Brother Randy in TN