Scripture Text (NRSV)
13:1 As he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him,
"Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large buildings!"
13:2 Then Jesus asked him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one
stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."
13:3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple,
Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately,
13:4 "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign that all
these things are about to be accomplished?"
13:5 Then Jesus began to say to them, "Beware that no one leads you
astray.
13:6 Many will come in my name and say, 'I am he!' and they will lead
many astray.
13:7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this
must take place, but the end is still to come.
13:8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
there will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines.
This is but the beginning of the birthpangs.
Comments:
I'm just beginning to mull over the text, and what strikes me the most
is why a disciple would say, "What large stones/buildings!" Does this
indicate it was their first time in Jerusalem or the first time coming
out of the Temple? I know the Temple was supposed to be spectacular,
but I find it curious that a disciple would say something like that.
Since right now I only have questions, does anyone have any answers?
Susan, Jacksonville,FL
Mark (and I think Matthew and Luke, too) only tell of one journey of
Jesus into Jerusalem. It is John who indicates Jesus had been there
before this trial and Crucifixion trip. However, being a devout Jew,
wouldn't Jesus have gone to Jerusalem for Passover several
times......?
For excellent commentary on the Temple itself, I am going with William
Barclay's Daily Study Bible of Mark. He describes the vastness of
those stones, why they were used, etc. Barclay explains that the
Temple, being on a hill, needed to have supporting walls built under
it to level it off. These stones were 40'L by 18'H, 12'W. I'm guessing
these truly massive stones were in the back, and not seen clearly by
people at the front side of the Temple who might be casually passing
by the hillside, or in the front areas while they carried out their
worship. But that's just a guess.
I'm afraid this text is going to give me hives. We're heading into the
apocalyptic stuff, which I just don't deal with well. It's not part of
my thought process or my belief system. I guess my problem is I don't
like what's been made of it; as I've stated before, it's become the
"scare people into faith" method of evangelizing, which I deplore.
I'll be looking for some guidance as long as we're on this topic.
KyHoosierCat
"the beginning of the birthpangs."
The bad news is the labor...the good news is the kingdom that will be
born.
Christians can anticipate the Coming Day but it will be a great and
terrible day. cf. Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah
before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."
It is great because of the final consumation, but dreadful because
there will be judgement.
Do a search in the OT on the day of the Lord. The message seems to be:
don't long too much for the day of the lord because many will be
judged, especially you.
I guess now is the time to experience mercy and repentance before it's
too late.
Many long for the coming kingdom, (Marantha,Lord Jesus) but it will be
a day of judgement as well as vindication.
John near Pitts.
I can't understand why the RCL has this text at this point in the
Christian Year, and about 3 weeks from now...Advent 1...voila! The
Synoptic Parallels or the original mini-apocalypse, Mark 13. Go
figure.
Wish I could bring clarity to this task, but first I'm going to muddy
the waters further. Perhaps Jesus did not himself actually predict the
imminent coming of the Day of the Lord.
There are some scholars (e.g. The Jesus Seminar) who believe Jesus
never preached an Apocalyptic Coming of the Son of Man; some suggest
apocalypticism came into the early church from followers of John the
Baptist. The predictions of a coming Day of the Lord would have been
eagerly accepted by early Christians, living under the incredible
poverty and oppression of the Roman Empire.
proto-Mark is written about the time of the Roman siege of Jerusalem
by Titus (c. 68 A.D.); many Jewish Christians in Judea and Galilee
might have seen the tribulations as "the beginning of the
birth-pangs." In Mark 13 Jesus predicts all these things will come to
pass within the lifetime of his original hearers/readers of GMark, and
1970 years later we are still awaiting their arrival.
So, if you have problems with Christian apocalyptic, maybe I've given
you away off the hook. But it's not that simple:
Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. Mark
13:33
In many cultures and among many people there exists an awareness...a
collective premonition of the Day of the Lord, a final reckoning, when
all the wrongs will be paid for and good will have its ultimate
triumph over evil. It rings true in our hearts.
Jesus may be saying we should not be impressed with all the incredible
wonders the Human Race is capable of building and making. The
buildings of ancient Jerusalem did not endure but the Word in Christ
did. We need to follow him as clearly as we can.
Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one leads you astray.
Da Rev in CT
verse 13:8 really speaks to me. Birthpangs! I understand this. All
these attachs, suicide bombings, September 11ths, "shocks and awes",
wow, these are birthpains. We have been working for centuries on how
to assist mothers and fathers to deliver babies, we need to reflect on
our learnings so this birth of God's new creation, is according to
God's purpose.
Shalom
bammamma
I dislike these texts as well- but isn't it strange how we seem to
have a morbid fascination with the end times. Look at the popularity
of the LEFT BEHIND Series. Luther thought he was in the end times with
the Ottoman Empire standing at the gates of Europe with a hungry
look...
We always think its the end- and I think if we can "predict" or
anticipate its coming- then we have more control- we can prepare
But Jesus is saying "don't be alarmed" Jesus is saying dont follow
everyone who claims to have the answer
What if the second coming is really about our own deaths? That we can
not know the day or time? Don't look to wars and famines as being
"signs" that the Day of the Lord is here.
The Day of the Lord is a very Jewish concept- It appears many of the
prophets but for some reason Joel sticks in my mind- (guess I ought to
go see why)
And to rbing in the Gospels- aren't birthpangs the begiining of
something wonderful?
Michele in PA
In the last week of his life, Jesus warned his disciples concerning
trials that were to come upon them and upon the world. He exhorts the
listener: Do not be alarmed.
The end of all things is not a concept or idea limited to religious
communities. It is a significant part of the discussion in the
sciences of physics and cosmology. Known sa the necrotic principle, it
seems a "fact" that the end of the universe shall come. Just as
scientists know that death is necessary to the continuation of life,
their formulas and observations indicate that either the universe
shall collapse back upon itself or will eventually spin apart. The
book "The End of the World and The Ends of God" contains many
interesting essays that provide a window to this discussion.
Christian worship is one place in our society and culture where every
week witness is given to the end of things. Witness is given to a view
of time that is at odds with the chronos of the world. In worship, the
end of this world is proclaimed, confessed, sung, and prayed for. We
are given stories and metaphors, songs and liturgies that enact this
conversation and speak of God's participation in this process of
ending. In such a gathering, in such a community, the insights of the
community of scientists concerning the end of the cosmos can find a
place and be welcomed as the community seeks orientation and
integration for life in the world and for the new life to come.
Our congregations benefit when we speak the promise of the end. Such
proclamation not only destabilizes structures and institutions that
claim ultimate allegiances, but also provides hope for all seeking
light in these shadowed days. For unlike the scientist, we are able to
give a witness that the endings are but the beginning of birth pangs
that usher in life eternal.
Some things loom so large in our sight, be they buildings or crises or
traditions, it may seem they will endure forever. But what is truly
lasting?
We know that the temple, which so captured the awe of the unnamed
disciple in the first verse of today's reading, was destroyed by the
Romans in 70 CE. From this passage, we learn that Mark's community
believed that Jesus knew it would fall. Either Jesus is predicting
that specific downfall or he is speaking more generally to the reality
that eventually all human structures and systems fall. Scholars are
uncertain about whether or not Mark's gospel was written before,
during, or after 70 CE. Jesus' words would have taken on even more
power if the community were hearing them as the temple was falling or
in its aftermath.
What would also fall with the physical building of the temple? The
whole structure of the Jewish faith at that time would be changed.
Everything Jesus had been challenging of the authority and power
located in that structure would come apart. We know of two groups
within Judaism who existed before the temple's destruction, the
Sadducees and the Pharisees. However, only the Pharisees survived the
changes of this period. How does the community that follows Jesus --
his disciples, Mark's community, and we -- survive in times of
collapse and turmoil? Jesus attempts to prepare his followers for
times such as these.
Jesus focuses on the issue of deception. Is it true that in times of
turmoil people are more easily deceived? Does our fear and uncertainty
cause us to follow any and all claims of stability and authority? Is
it "any port in a storm"? Those who preach absolutes and claim to know
what's happening and what to do about it seem to attract a crowd.
Popularity is not necessarily a hallmark of wisdom or insight. Jesus
tells his followers not to be alarmed and not to allow themselves to
be led astray. They are to keep their focus on him, not on those who
falsely claim his authority.
This chapter of Mark is among the number of passages in the Bible that
are apocalyptic, that describe the end of time. Common among these
passages are descriptions of disaster and destruction, of things
coming undone. In Mark the time of upheaval is not only the end but
also a beginning. In the final words of this section of Mark's
apocalypse, Jesus reveals, "This is but the beginning of the birth
pangs."
Birth pangs. New creation. Jesus prepares disciples and followers of
this age and every age for transformation. That which lasts and
endures will be God's renewing of life in God's good purposes,
according to God's time. Speculation about when and where and how
misses the point. The main point is that God remains sovereign, and
God's promises can be trusted. Even in the midst of suffering, even in
the midst of upheaval, rebirth and hope are the ways of God. What
lasts in this world are not impressive constructions of architecture
meant to convey the reach of human power, but the birthing of God's
sovereign realm, the reach of divine grace.
To Da Rev in CT. I can work with the Titus-led destruction of the
Temple directon. I tend to see Jesus' prediction of it as a "vision"
of the end of the old order (with hard labor pains??) and the start of
a new order (a birth??). With the downing of the Temple, worship will
have to be centered somewhere else - and for Christianity, of course,
that would be in Jesus, and a new journey for God's people will begin.
KyHoosierCat If this double-posts, I apologize in advance - it's
acting up on me.....
Birthpangs - the beginning of something new. Sometimes old things, old
structures, old systems, (in the church?) need to fall away so that
something new (and appropriate for the times?) can come to
life....early thoughts. God is in the midst of the turmoil of change.
revjaw
I'm fearful of doing this passage also, comfort level with apocalyptic
is not very high for me, though I have taken a considerable amount of
courses that dealt with it in both OT and NT. Obviously, didn't stick
well :)
One book I can highly recommend is Craig Hill's In God's Time,
published about a year or so ago. In fact, there is even a study guide
that goes with it to do with classes. He is definitely not a fan of
the Left Behind series, so if you are, be forewarned.
I'm really looking to this site (and listening to the discussion) to
try to find some handle on this passage. I don't want to bail and go
to Hebrews, but it sure would be easier. Sigh.
MM in PA
Why do bad things happen (to good? people)? One of the quick answers
that most of us proclaim is that this is not the intentional will of
God. In other words, God does not single you out for a car wreck
because you (a)forgot to tithe last week, (b)looked with lust at the
clerk at the supermarket, or (c) or even said a bad word when your
least favorite politician made his/her last set of campaign promises.
The god of retribution is not the god on the throne of our hearts.
Then why is it that when we hear apochalyptical text, we immediately
assume that all of these things are God's intentional will? They are
within God's permissive will to be sure, but why do we immediately
assume that they are a part of God's plan? (I'm not pushing for a
dualism that casts Satan into the front either.) Seems to me that
human's have been doing lots of things to each other for a pretty long
time-- wars, rumors of wars, etc. are not exactly foreign to our
experience. Neither are famines. Earthquakes are more problematic but
the more we learn, the more we are discovering how humanbeings are
twisting and reshaping the environment. SOme of that becomes
speculative and I don't want to go too far with it.
However, when you look at vs. 7-8, what is being said is that all the
trauma that we experience -- that any have experienced-- are
birthpangs of the kingdom. And how many over the years have presented
themselves with messianic pretentions? The kingdom comes with God's
timing. Of course, in times of severe suffering, we pray for God's
redemption.
One more comment and I'm out of here: In spite of what Barclay says, I
wouldn't quote the size of those stones. The ones visible at the
Western wall are impressive enough-- but they are considerably shy of
40'. If the bible said 40', then I would have to deal with it, but I
don't need Barclay to get me into explanations that I don't know how
to make.
Walt in Texas
When I was a smart-alecky teenager many (OK, many, many) years ago, my
friends and I had a running put-down: That was impressive, but not
very.
The Temple is impressive, but not very -- when measured against the
creation. A charismatic leader is impressive, but not very -- when
measured against Christ. The power of war is impressive, but not very
-- when measured against the power of God's redemptive love. The Roman
Empire is impressive, but not very -- when measured against the
kingdom/reign of God in Jesus Christ. The ground shaking is
impressive, but not very -- when measured against shaking up our
lives. A famine is impressive, but not very -- when measured agains
the hunger the world has for a word from God. All of this is to the
kingdom what birthpangs are to new life!
OLAS
I know the actual size of the stones is not of primary importance
here, but Josephus, the great historian, puts the size of the stones
at 45 cubits long, 5 cubits high, 6 cubits wide. Since a cubit is
about 18", that would make these things massive (67.5 x 9 x 7.5 feet)
even if they weren't the 40 x 18 x 12 feet Barclay portrays.
The point is, they were supposedly solid, would last many generations,
and they were (almost literally) the foundation of the then-current
faith. But, as big and strong as they were, they crumbled when
assailed by foes. The Kingdom built on Jesus Christ will never
crumble, unless it does so internally. Nothing external will ever make
it fall.
KHC
I am looking for a fresh perspective to these passages about Jesus'
teachings of the end times.
I have been to Jerusalem; I have seen those large stones under ground
holding up the temple mount (there are as big as reported!) I have
seen those large stones in a heap of rubble uncovered by the digs (the
temple fell as predicted by Jesus and reported by Josepheus). And if
this was just the birth pangs of the kingdom of God coming into the
world God so loves, what will the rest of God's loving labor be like?
I am listening to and looking for what other "temple" human religious
institutions God has in mind that need to be brought down inorder for
the Good News to be lifted up, so I/we might get out of God's way and
beware not to be lead astray by a false Messiah.
Rob in Nebraska
I'm not sure you have to look very far for "temples" that need to be
brought down so God's Kingdom can be lifted up. We all have our
stubborn, "know it all" approach to God and Christ, where we fit the
Scriptures to our own prejudices and desires. I am as guilty as anyone
on this, even as I rail against the Biblical Pharisees and the
modern-day fundamentalists who are smitten with a "last days"
enthusiasm and haughty judments of others. We are all our own personal
"temples" of enlightenment. Mine is just better than yours, right?
Who knows? Maybe America, with all our excesses, pride and
self-sufficiency will need to tumble down before God can be lifted up
in this land. And I mean more than the sporatic lurches we make toward
national piety when we get shaken up. I mean one day we will have to
decide between running "hot" with God or running "cold" with God, and
stop being so frustratingly tepid as a nation. America has become its
own "temple" that has too many people declaring we don't need anything
more because we already have it all. I'm sure Israel felt the same way
when they had the Temple standing there on the hilltop.
Anonymous
I hear you, but your words, "as a nation," give me pause. Too many
times, when a religion is chosen by a nation (or by the leaders of a
nation), it becomes faulty. Hitler claimed to be Christian, so did
reverend Jones.
I believe that we, as Christians, need to take seriously our
responsibility in government, without forcing others to believe as we
do. If we are faithful, and do as we ought to do as Christians, they
will see our love and be drawn to the truth. Sadly, too often, we
display hate, and only fanatics are drawn to that.
Sometimes a government has to be harsh, and that harshness is seen as
hatred. If we tie our religion to the nation, every harsh act will
reflect on our religion, and we will send people scurrying to the
hills, away from the truth.
I hope we as Christians can be faithful servants within the
government, without saying that the government (i.e. the nation) must
be Christian.
Michelle
Susan in Jacksonville: please drop me a line at: reiver1@bellsouth.net.
I'm in Jax, too. Pastor Rick in Fl
I was struct with the concept of birthpangs. I know little about them,
but there was a man named Ferdinand Lamaze who knew an awful lot about
it. I did a little research on the Lamaze method. I found out that it
involved three basic elements which offered a means for the mother to
stay awake and aware during childbirth. 1. Helping the mother focus by
utilizing breathing techniques. 2. Offering a means to cope with pain
through positive encouragement. 3. Allowing the father into the
delivery room for support and coaching.
If you read a little beyond verse 8, Jesus might be giving us some
Lamaze training to remain faithful in the midst of adversity. Notice
how the following connect to the above.
1. You can remain faithful in the face of adversity by staying focused
on Christ. Then Jesus began to say to them, "Beware that no one leads
you astray. Many will come in my name and say, "I am he!' and they
will lead many astray.
2. You can remain faithful in the face of adversity by viewing
adversity as an opportunity to express your faith. "As for yourselves,
beware; for they will hand you over to councils; and you will be
beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings
because of me, as a testimony to them. And the good news must first be
proclaimed to all nations.
3. You can remain faithful in the face of adversity by allowing Christ
to work and speak through you. When they bring you to trial and hand
you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say; but say
whatever is given you at that time, for it is not you who speak, but
the Holy Spirit.
First time post. Just thought it was interesting JK
Long time listener, first time contributer... :)
Having drunk freely, and with appropriate attribution, from the well
of collective wisdom here, I felt that my thoughts for this week might
be of some use in sparking dialogue... My sermon title has already
raised some eyebrows: MY, WHAT BIG STONES YOU HAVE
Following some initial responses from our staff and the signage folks
("Somebody better rethink that sign...")I am increasingly convinced
that we have a great challenge in letting folks struggle with their
preconceived notions of what we are up to. As a result, I have asked
that the scripture passage be withheld from the bulletin and the sign
in order to allow for a greater impact of the reading. So as not to
bore you all here are some bullets of thoughts for this: 1) When you
think of stones, what comes to mind? Stones for an altar, David's
stones, Water from a stone, Stoning the sinful, Peter as "the rock,"
Paul's stumbling block, stepping stones, healing stones, the Rolling
Stones, gallstones, "Sticks and Stones...," Some read the sermon title
and thought something altogether different... 2) Each image conjures a
unique sense of one's own expectation of previous experience of
stones, especially BIG STONES... However, I used the phrasing in the
title to evoke another image...My what big _______ you have... comes
from? 3) You guessed it...Lil' Red Riding Hood, (enter three choir
members to sing "who's afraid of the BBW?")The BBW is a central image
of childhood fear...3 pigs, Wolf & 7 Kids, The little boy who cried
Wolf, Even teenage years were filled with Thriller, American werewolf
in London, As we get older the wolves get scarier, but always they are
out to get you...we're all afraid that when we build our lives the BBW
will "huff and puff..." or when get to the safety of Grandmas house (church)the
wolves in the sheepskin are waiting... My, what big robes you have,
what big bibles, choirs, sanctuaries... From the Gospel of Mark (read
text inserting "Huff and puff imagery and "The better to lead you
with..." - Don't be fooled... 4) How is it that we get fooled so
easily by the wolves? Do we really not see the stark contrast between
ideologies and agendas other than Christ's?!? Or are we too busy
building individually and corporately with stones of self-service and
aggrandizement? Guess what the good news is that the BBW (Big Brother
of Wondrous Love...??? still working on that...any suggestions) will
Hug and tug down the walls of our fear and lead us with a servant's
heart to the birthplace of a kingdom...recognizing the shepherd
requires that you spend time with the flock and that you see/hear/feel
the authentic presence of our Savior. If however, we only visit once
in a while or get caught up in the awe of the buildings that WE have
created within and without, or become distracted and insular because
of the worlds travails, then we may not recognize the liberating face
that will is longing for birth in our lives....calling us ever forward
in faith and love
Oh well, very long, but felt the need...
opus2003
Someone said this text seems out of place. I disagree. Certainly the
First Advent crept up on the Jewish people, catching them unaware; the
Second Advent is just as likely to creep up on us, catching us
unaware.
Perhaps I am wrong, but when I see the apocolyptic writings, I
automatically think of His return. Am I the only one here who links
the two?
If not, then why is it that we as Christians are so uncomfortable
about talking about Christ coming again, the "Day of the Lord?" Do we
not say during Holy Communion, " Christ has died; Christ has Risen;
Christ will Come Again!" (I must admit the exclamation point is mine;
some congregations mutter this when it should be a resounding "Yes!")
As I read this Scripture I find myself thinking about the cauldron of
current world events. I'm not really one to spend a great amount of
time thinking about prophecy, eschatology, etc., but in the newsroom
last night I found myself talking to a couple of twentysomethings
about the possibility that God continues to deal with nations, and use
them for His purpose. I know there are some who believe that He no
longer does so, that He only deals with the individual. However, these
days I'm not so sure. The words of Jeremiah in The Potter's House
continue to resonate with me.
The good news is this: The walls will someday come down, but God's
love and grace will continue to stand.
PastorBuzz in TN
A Postscript: I really don't put much stock in The Jesus Seminar.
Frankly, I wish they'd take their marbles and go home. It seems to me
that the more doubt you cast on what Jesus said and didn't say, at
some point you would have to ask "Did anybody really say anything in
Scripture?"
Oh, by the way: I've never read any of the "Left Behind" books. Some
years ago (maybe 15 or more?) I read Tim LaHaye's book on Revelation.
So, I figured that was enough for me to get the gist of his theology.
PastorBuzz
With mankind, it's Look at what I have done, big buildings, splendor.
But, we cant do anything without God! This hits us hard now, after
9-11. Perhaps if we placed Jesus in our time, like the Movie The Judas
Project did. Jesus and his fly fishermen and IRS guy,Matt. Maybe they
just came out of the Church near the Twin Towers...with a WOW! Jesus
said not a stone left. Wars and rumors of Wars. Earthquakes in wierd
place, the threat of that one again on New Madrid, faultline near
Mississippi. Take Heart these things have to come before JOy of the
Lord can be fulfilled. Clerically Blonde on West Ohio
Agree with you Buzz. I think that way too, Christ Second Advent...
UMC's say it in ritual of Communion. Do we not really believe it? Are
you a preterist? (new word that I learned when readinf Dr. David
Reagon's Wrath and Glory)
I asked my Seminary Professor about what UMC's believed about the
second coming just a few weeks ago. We were studying Pioneer Women
Preacher. Of course, we got in to the second Great Awakening and
things they were a changin' in USA. Also, Rev. Miller's ideas on
advent- the millerite movement.
Rev. Miller grew up baptist, then as a young man got into the new
thinking- Voltaire, Locke etc...then he had a conversion experience
and went back to his baptist roots. Now, Rev. Miller spoke at alot of
demoninations. Jesus' returning was believed, accepted by Methodist,
Baptist Presby's etc... but someone took it too far 1844 1845 month of
October ring a bell? People sold everything, and waited on hills...
nothing happened... so your mainline denomination steer clear of that
now... My professor said UMC's dont really get into the apocalyptic
things..
Well, Country UMC preachers in WV preached on it. "THE RAPTURE" UMC's
SING it- Meet you in the Rapture and Sweet Hour of Prayer- from Mount
Pisquah's lofty height I view my home and take my flight. (I grew up
hearing it)
Sounds like UMC's more dont ask dont tell stuff if you ask me??
Through the years the Methodist Church has lost some great preachers,
1845-the lady who began 7th day adventists, read their sanctification
doctrine- her methodist upbringing followed her. Methodist Preachers-
mostly Women to Disciples of Christ. From Norman Vincent Peale who
went to Dutch reformed from the UMC. (By the way, I serve in the
charge where Norman Peale's dad preacher-he was a boy here in Ohio.)
And dont forget Oral Roberts was a Methodist Preacher. If everyone
that began as a Methodist stayed in WOW UMC would be huge today!
So, here's my take on UMC and eschatolgy(sp). premillenial's are
welcome, ammilennial's are welcome, post Millenial's too... Preterist
welcome Because we have OPEN MINDS OPEN HEARTS AND OPEN DOORS!!!!
Clerically Blonde in West Ohio (BISHOP OUGH IS THE BEST #1!)
Beware that no one leads you astray.
I had an experience this weekend. A couple in my congregation who are
great people and hard workers invited me to a weekend seminar. I
should have been leary because of the hours and other things but I am
super nieve and I think I have been impressed with these people.
It was a major cult indoctrination. It is called the Landmark Forum.
It makes me think now of "Beware that no one leads you astray."
One of the things that these cults promise is that if we can get
enough people to join then there will be world peace and harmony, so
call all your friends.
But Jesus knew different. He knew that wars must take place and even
by our beleiving in something or other we are not going to stop them.
Jesus was and our preaching should be honest about the human
condition.
Certainly this doesn't preclude prayer or diplomacy. What Jesus warns
is the same warning throughout the scriptures about false prophets
with facile answers or those who tell you what you want to hear. At
least the Old Testament false prophets only told the king and the
people what they wanted to hear out of cowardice. These cults do it
for control.
I am struggling with what to say to the people in my congregation who
took me. Are they inviting other people in my congregation? Do I need
to protect my sheep?
mspastor in RI
I think my sermon title will be "Thousands of Massive Stones cannot
compare to One Solid Rock". Or something very close to that.
KHC
Hi, umm, sorry if this is off topic but i could do with a bit of help.
I'm doing a children's talk and sunday school for our service this
sunday, and i have absolutely *no idea* of what to do,i was hoping
that someone on this board knew something that is quick and simple to
set up?
thanks in advance
for KyHoosierCat, and others... This passage fits well into the
'second coming' series (well, not really a series, it's only two
sermons) that starts this week. I will 'set the stage' so to speak,
for the service on the 23rd, which will be presented by grade
school-junior high students in our Christian School. They chose the
2nd coming theme, and are working at three sections of message. Two
students will contribute to each section with readings and comments.
The sections are as follows: 1> God promised us the Messiah, and that
the Messiah would return at 'the end' to make all things new. 2> what
we should look for, and what will happen. 3> what we should do while
we wait. Obviously this is going to be very simple and basic, but it
is wonderful to see such young students wrestling with apocalyptic
texts! Please pray for them. The entire service will be presented to
God and the congregation by the students, with [almost] no adult
leader participation. May God bless us all as we struggle with
difficult messages! RevJanet in CNY
As a seminary student I drew this passage to preach before the whole
seminary community. I started with a story. When I was 19 and studing
economics in college my 3 year old sister came in and asked me to read
her a story. I started to read from my econ text. She listened for a
bit and said, "I don't like that story." and left. We may not like
Mark's story but we have to wrestle with it like Jacob wrestled with
God. There are blessings to be found. Sue in Ohio
Dear Friends:
I can't separate my own context from anything lately. But this
scripture is speaking to me. I'm afraid I may be reading myself into
it in a way that doesn't fit, and I'd like some outside perspective.
Here's where I am. In the midst of a fire ravaged neighborhood. My own
home is standing, though those across the street are not. My mother's
home, 3 doors down from me, is also gone, with all of its contents.
For my family, it feels like total loss. My 90 year old mother is
holding up. She says she's been through so much in life that she was
better prepared to deal with this loss than many. No one else in our
congregation lost homes, but many were displaced. I still do not have
telephone services other than my cell phone, which isn't totally
reliable, so communication is an issue for the whole congregation.
Now for the scripture: I hear Jesus saying that nothing is permanent--atleast
not structures created by people. I also hear him saying that the
nature of this world is that we will experience destruction on many
scales.
But the word of hope I hear is that God's kingdom is permanent, that
God is working with us through these terrible times, and that these
times in some way usher in the times of God's creative plan.
I don't hear a message of "tribulation" or prediction of "end times"
and I don't associate our personal disaster with those things. But I
do believe that the kingdom of God, future and present, is reached by
passing through hard times.
Please tell me if any of this is preachable or if I'm so focused on my
own mess that I can't think coherently. This is a tough week.
Pam in San Bernardino
Pam in Bernadino, my condolences to all of you who have been ravaged
by those fires. We on the other side of the country have continued to
pray for all of you.
As to your post about hard times, it reminds me of the biology lesson
from 4th grade - if you help a hatchling get out of its shell, it will
not have the strength to fly. It must struggle in order to be whole
and vital.
KyHoosierCat
Hi, everybody!
Our phone lines were down yesterday, and I was off on Monday (gotta
rake those leaves and pine needles), so I'm JUST NOW really sitting
down to concentrate on sermonizing.
But first, KHC - thanks for giving me the idea of a letter to God (in
the email you sent). In a flash of inspiration on Saturday, I wrote
the sermon (yes, on Saturday - I said it was a FLASH of inspiration)
as if the widow was standing in line to give her offering and was
praying as she was standing there. It went over well, for the most
part, though with a little more time I'd work out the metaphors a bit
more clearly.
OK - this passage ... it's a toughie for me. All UMC and other
mainliners' joking aside, there is a promise of Scripture that there
will be an end of time. Whatever it is, however, remains a mystery and
in my humble opinion, is best remaining as a mystery. Whenever it is,
also is best remaining as a mystery.
My temptation will be to get into the pulpit and try to correct all
the LaHaye and his ilk's theology, but our folks in this church aren't
all that hung up on the end times.
Jesus keeps responding to the disciples in a riddle-like form. "Look
at these stones they're building with!" - "A time will come when all
stones are torn down." "When will this be, and how can we tell?"
--"Beware no one leads you astray. Don't be alarmed, things will only
get worse."
I'm hoping to, rather than linearize this and explain it point by
point to fit into our brains, sit with the puzzle, the riddle. The
answer to the riddle is that "it's in God's hands, the eschaton, the
wars, the crumbling structures, and not your concern nor your
responsibility."
Perhaps the profoundest faith of all is to go on with our lives. Live
ever more faithfully and you'll be ok.
I've got a refrigerator magnet that says "Jesus is coming!" (then,
right below it) "Look busy!"
Live faithfully and looking busy won't be a problem.
OK, this is pretty Simple Simon, but it's Wed and it's a tough text
for us mainliners.
BTW: who among us has NOT been accused of "coming in Jesus' name" but
is actually a false prophet? Let's face it, SOmeone SOMEwhere is going
to say it about us, the same way we say it about LaHaye and Wilkerson.
Sally in GA
Pam in San B.,
Preaching within your context makes for a truly meaningful sermon
(IMHO). KHcat speaks for many of us who have held those in CA in our
prayers of the people. When people lose so much, faith becomes the
beacon of hope in the darkest of times. To add to the analogy of the
hatchling, a butterfly will also die if someone tries to assist by
cutting open the cocoon. We all gain wisdom, hopefully, from the
birthpangs following destruction.
As a therapist, I'd like to caution mspastor in RI, re: the Landmark
forum. I know of many who have benefited from this event. People are
encouraged to make amends, to live life more fully, to let go of
self-centered ideas and to be more in communion with others. It does
not mean that these people are giving up their faith but finding ways
in which to live out their faith.
As a minister, re: the end times and the second coming...I was once
told that if you meet the Messiah on the road, the first thing you
should ask is "When are you coming again?"
BB in IL
Maybe it's my off-beat sense of humour but this passage always makes
me think of a family outing to the seaside or some large tourist
attraction. only ten minutes ago ths kids were screaming from the back
of the car "Are we there yet" for the thousandth time and now they are
taking everything in but mainly because it's different from being
locked up in the car! "Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large
buildings!" The disciples have heard Jesus teaching in and araound the
Temple for days but all they have done is look at the sites! So he
takes them for a stiff bit of exercise to concentrate their minds and,
believe me, that walk from Jerusalem up the Mount of Olives does
concentrate your mind - on getting air into your lungs! Maybe there is
something in here about us only listening superficially and only
looking at the surface rather than trying to understand the deeper
words that Jesus lays before us. Maybe we don't want to listen too
hard because what He askes of us is scary! Hope you don't mind a
comment from a guy from across 'The Pond' but I do find these comments
really useful each week in getting the brain 'kick-started' on my
sermon.
Pete in Wrexham (North Wales) UK
PS: To Walt in Texas: Just turning your words ("Why do bad things
happen to good people?") around. Have you read "Why GOOD people do BAD
things" by Gerard Vanderhaar (Twenty-Third Publications - ISBN
9780896225718) It's quite an interesting book. Pete
Pam in San Bernadino,
Like KHC and others, please know that you all have been in the prayers
of those of us in the East. And even when things have left the news
reports, you will remain there. Having lived through Sept 11 while
watching the Pentagon burn out my kitchen window, I understand the
concept of having a hard time separating your own context from
anything. I also understand the concept of off-the-front-pages doesn't
mean back-to-normal. I'm grateful your family has survived, but my
heart aches for all who have lost so much.
"But the word of hope I hear is that God's kingdom is permanent, that
God is working with us through these terrible times, and that these
times in some way usher in the times of God's creative plan.
I don't hear a message of "tribulation" or prediction of "end times"
and I don't associate our personal disaster with those things. But I
do believe that the kingdom of God, future and present, is reached by
passing through hard times."
I think that is a strong thought to take from this passage. As I
mentioned earlier on, this is an uncomfortable passage for me because
I still don't feel I have a handle on it. But sovereignty of God I can
handle. Complete trust in God, no matter what, I can handle. Travails
before growth, I can handle. Human efforts being ethereal and God's
being eternal, I can handle. Now, I don't for a minute think that's
ALL this passage is saying, but it's sure a great beginning.
Thanks for your message. Good reminder. Peace be with you and yours,
MM in PA
Pam in San Bern. Gee, I have to read your post to discover that your
Mom got burned out. I am sorry for the loss, but her attitude is
great. I think that your ideas for sermon will definitely preach. My
home burned to the ground in 87, and it is amazing what a positive
experience that turned out to be! It was much more than an ending, it
was a beginning, a time to make amends with loved ones and
not-so-loved ones as well. At the retirement community where I am
Chaplain, one of our CNAs was speaking with a resident's dtr who had
been evacuated from her mountain home (near you). The CNA is from El
Salvador and he was reassuring her that all would be well. He said to
her, "Oh, you can begin again! This is America! Here you can truly
begin again. In my country, if this happened, we would never recover,
but here, in US, you will be all right." Kate/Pomona
I don't see this at all as 'apocalyptic'. I see Jesus stating reality.
He was a brilliant discerner of the times. He read the seasons.
The temple that Jesus was intent on building, and which lasts for
ever, is the sacred temple of the human spirit.
Human structures are impressive. We have a creative gift, just like
God in our ability to move mountains, but we are minnows in the area
of relationships and loving.
Most people look for strong leadership, authoritive warriors who will
protect them from the ravages of life. Insecurity is the major cause
of violence. Jesus simply prepared his disciples to be ready for them.
Dr M Scott-Peck in his book "A Road Less Travelled" states right at
the beginning of the book. "Life is difficult!" And when we are ready
to accept this truth, it no longer is.
To be lead astray, is to think that there is some easier way, than the
way of compassionate loving. There isn't, and anything that distracts
us from this, is contrary to the gospel of Christ.
Will there be an end? Does there have to be? Do we believe God created
this universe or not?
Jesus, was the ultimate realist. He didn't beat about the bush or hide
the truth from his disciples. He told them they would have to suffer,
and he meant it.
I guess I am intrigued, why we become so pious in the face of this
confronting gospel. Big stones. Sure, but even bigger obstacles are
the hearts of human beings. These God could not overturn, save through
the death of his Son.
Have a great week everyone.
Regards, KGB in Aussie.
In verse 3 we see where jesus sat opposite the temple. Our focus
should not be on the church, we should not follow certain pastors we
need to be focused upon the chosen one of God. His Son Jesus Christ,
whom warned us about our pride in things such as this wonder of the
world. We do get led astray, many people, many beautiful things leads
our focus away from God, away from the teachings at the feet of Jesus.
And if it is not our pride leading us astray it is our fears of the
rumors of horrible events. Remember Jesus sat opposite the temple, for
everything the temple stood for, everything that took our focus away
from God, Jesus was the opposite of that.
May God Bless Brother Randy in TN
