Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 3:15-17, 21-22
3:15 As the people were filled with expectation, and all were
questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the
Messiah,
3:16 John answered all of them by saying, "I baptize you with
water; but one who is more powerful than I is coming; I am not worthy
to untie the thong of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy
Spirit and fire.
3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing
floor and to gather the wheat into his granary; but the chaff he will
burn with unquenchable fire."
3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had
been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened,
3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form
like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, the
Beloved; with you I am well pleased."
Comments:
So, Jesus was praying, i.e. in communication with his Father, and the
word that he heard was a confirmation of their unique relationship and
how delighted the Father was with his Son. And this was when all Jesus
had done to that point was be baptised. He hadn't done anything else
(resisted temptation, healed anyone, gone to the Cross). What an
affirmation! Do we who are "in Christ" receive the same affirmation
from our Heavenly Father? WOK DOWNUNDER
The prepositions (and, in one case, a conjunction) are kind of
interesting to me, at first glance...
v. 16 - interesting that it reads "...He will baptize you with the
Holy Spirit AND fire." Usually we think of it as "the Holy Spirit OF
fire." Then later the Holy Spirit descends LIKE a dove, not AS (in the
form of) a dove.
Baptism OF fire, Baptism BY fire ...
and, apart from the prepositions, v. 21 - "The heaven was opened." I
wonder what that looked like. When we say the heavens open up, it
means it's raining cats and dogs.
This time only doves???
OK, OK, OK ... I'll sign off!
Sally in GA
When do we receive the Holy Spirit? I kind of always thought that we
receive it as part of baptism, as I baptize people in the name of the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Christian Church (Disciples of
Christ) we have believer's baptism. Those of you who are UMC have as
part of your confirmation liturgy the laying on of hands and
communicants receive the Holy Spirit then. Just some beginning
thoughts. PH in OH
I'm thinking about following up Jan. 4th's sermon on the Wise Men ("We
have seen his star. What say we? Should we follow where it leads or
not? Are we willing to receive whatever it is God offers, even if it's
not what we expected?") with a similar theme on Baptism. ("We have
been baptized in the Spirit of God. We are the children of God. What
say we? Will we be teachable and moldable, or not? Are we following
God, or expecting God to follow us?)
Very early thoughts.
KyHoosierCat
The last of the prophets of Israel, John the Baptist points ahead to
"the one mightier than I [who] is coming." Although John baptizes with
water, Jesus will baptize with the Spirit and fire. In Luke's version
of this story, the focus is not on John, however. God is the actor,
causing the Spirit to descend upon Jesus and inaugurating his mission
with the proclamation that he is the "beloved Son."
By now a goodly number of Christmas gifts and toys have been shown too
fragile for the real world--or perhaps the recipients weren't
sufficiently careful, not "goodly" enough. How about the gift of the
Holy Spirit? Surely it is not too fragile for the real world. We have
received the Spirit at our baptism. Are we taking good care, making
good use of that Spirit?
When Jesus presented himself to John for baptism, John was astonished.
"I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Did John fully
understand Jesus' reply? "Let it be so now; for it is proper for us in
this way to fulfill all righteousness" (Mt 3.14, 15). John and the
people gathered around Jordan could see Jesus stepping into the
river's water, but they could not realize he was stepping into his
offered life as the representative of all the people of the world. He,
sinless, offered himself as the sin bearer for all sinners. He, the
Lamb of God, began the living and the dying that would take away the
sin of the world.
And then, it was as if God couldn't stand it--all this significant
beginning and the people saying only, "That's Jesus stepping into
Jordan." And so God opened the heavens, the Holy Spirit assumed the
bodily form of a dove, and God himself used the words to make the
case: "You are my Son, the Beloved, with you I am well pleased" (Lk
3.22).
That was already an indication of what we humbly believe, that the
Father accepts this Savior's sacrifice for us all, has raised the
Savior from the dead, and will raise to everlasting life all who
believe this gospel. In the meantime, we have the wonderful gift of
the Spirit to care for, as the Spirit cares for us.
The culture into which Jesus was born had rigid social customs. People
behaved in accordance with their status given at birth, never
presuming more or less. Little would be expected of the son of a
manual labourer from out-of-the-way Nazareth. For a person like Jesus,
the right to speak in public or to interpret the Torah would need to
be established and demonstrated. It is not surprising then that when
Jesus spoke and taught, people would wonder at his boldness and
question the source of his authority.
Luke tells readers that Jesus receives this authority directly from
God at his baptism. God comes to Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the
form of a dove, identifying Jesus as the "Beloved." The readers of
Luke would interpret and understand this voice from heaven as giving
both authenticity and authority to Jesus' ministry. The love that
Jesus later proclaims in his ministry is first extended to him now.
We, too, are given the promise that identity and authority are ours as
we recognize God's presence in our lives and set out to begin God's
work.
Only four weeks ago, we read these verses with expectation and hope as
we prepared for Jesus' coming. Repeated here, we experience them with
new eyes and live them out a bit differently too. The expectation is
being fulfilled, and in this Season after the Epiphany, we continue to
look for and seek out signs of Jesus' reign in our world. This text
asks us to make space to hear God's voice in our life - a voice we
share with those around us, and that tells us that we, too, are God's
beloved.
When you are baptized in this faith you are putting on Christ, who
washes away your sins in baptism and gives you the Holy Spirit, etc.
So you see, do you not, that this forgiveness is not brought about
through your penance, but rather that Christ bears the sins of us all
and kills them in his body, and that we take hold of this by faith and
let ourselves be baptized according to his command.
...Hence, not only are sins forgiven in baptism, but we are also made
sure and certain that God is so well pleased with it that he, together
with Christ and his Holy Spirit, proposes to be present when it is
administered and he himself will be the baptizer; although this
glorious revelation of the divine majesty does not now occur visibly,
as it did at that time on the Jordan, since it is sufficient that it
occurred once as a witness and a sign.
Therefore we should diligently accustom ourselves to look upon these
things with eyes of faith and to interpret this glorious revelation
and divine radiance and splendor which shone forth above the baptism
of Christ as happening to us; for all this did not happen and all this
was not recorded for Christ’s sake, for he himself did not baptize
[John 4:2], but rather for our comfort and the strengthening of our
faith, for the sake of which he also accepted baptism. Therefore
wherever anybody is being baptized according to Christ’s command we
should be confidently convinced that God the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit is present there, and that there is pure delight, pleasure, and
joy in heaven over the fact that sin is forgiven, the heavens opened
forever, and that now there is no more wrath but only grace unalloyed.
--Martin Luther, vol. 51
This text always stirs my mind to ask, "If Jesus received the Holy
Spirit at his baptism, does that mean he didn't have the Holy Spirit
prior to (without) baptism?" If Jesus is fully God and fully human
("if" in the sense of "since") would the Holy Spirit not already
reside in him? How does his baptism change him? I know this is a
discussion that's been going on for centuries - why did Jesus have to
get baptized ... but I'd appreciate any new insights into the
in-dwelling of the Spirit prior to or after Jesus' baptism. HSin ON
The comment this morning (unsigned) said in part: "In Luke's version
of this story, the focus is not on John, however. God is the actor . .
." That started me thinking about the use of focus in photography.
Some photos are made less interesting by the attempt to get everything
in focus. The skilled photographer recognizes how focus can draw the
eye to the critical feature(s). An easily recognized example is the
difference in a portrait when the nose is in focus, rather than the
eyes. I seem to remember that Rembrandt used light in his paintings to
create the same effect. His nativity and crucifixion scenes are two
examples. Perhaps Luke is using the narrative in the same way. The
people thought John the Baptist was the focus and wanted to know who
he was. Luke has John shift the focus to its appropriate spot. Then
Jesus actions and God's actions and words complete the shift. (Please
don't think I am separating Jesus and God in any way that denies
Trinitarian doctrine.)
Alan Selig
I have never interpreted the descent of the HS upon Jesus as his being
filled with the HS for the first time. I have seen it more as a
confirmation of his ministry, of putting away his old life as a
full-time son, carpenter, etc. and taking on the new work of rabbi,
preacher, and ultimately Savior. Kind of like an ordination, I
guess.....sort of, anyway. I see the HS showing up as the visible sign
of God's approval of what Jesus was about to do -- the time was right,
his calling was clearly understood, etc.
But, I'm willing to learn other viewpoints. Please share, OK?
KyHoosierCat
PH in OH said, "Those of you who are UMC have as part of your
confirmation liturgy the laying on of hands and communicants receive
the Holy Spirit then."
I won't speak for my Methodists brethren and sistern... but I think
they would probably disagree with this characterization, PH. As an
Anglican/Episcopalian, I certainly would. We also practice infant
baptism and then confirm in early adulthood, but would not say that
the blessing, indwelling and gifts of the Holy Spirit are not received
until then (confirmation). Rather they are received in full at baptism
and then acknowledged by the adult who re-affirms the promises and
commitments made on his/her behalf by Godparents and parents. (This,
of course, is a very "thumbnail" abbreviated statement of what both
sacraments are all about, so don't take me to task for leaving
something out!)
As for the question asked by HS in ON about Jesus not receiving the
Holy Spirit before his baptism, I'm not sure that's what's going on
here... Jesus doesn't seem to "receive the Holy Spirit" in the same
way we followers do in our baptisms. Rather the Holy Spirit appears as
the Dove and the voice of the Father is heard saying, "This is my
Son...." What this speaks to me is the involvement of the Trinity, all
three persons, in the ministry of the Son in the Person of Jesus of
Nazareth. At the very beginning of his earthly ministry, all three
Persons of the Holy Trinity make an appearance affirming that the
ministry of the Son is the ministry of the Holy Spirit is the ministry
of the Father. Jesus is baptized not to receive the Holy Spirit, whose
presence he clearly always has, but to set the example for those who
would follow him: "Let it be so for now" he says to the Baptizer who
objects to his coming to him (in Matthew's version); it is done simply
to conform to God's will. The Gospel narratives clearly reject any
idea that in the baptism Jesus became anything different than he had
already been.
Blessings, Eric in OH
By the way -- I preached (in part) on the "Why?" question when we had
the Matthean version of the baptism in 2002. You can find that sermon
at
http://thefunstons.com/sermons/a011302.html
The text has some Hebrew and Greek characters in it for which you may
not have the fonts, but you can read through those, I'm sure.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 10:20:54 AM
Comment
Off topic, but I celebrate great news when I read it. Tammy in TX
wrote on a page for a previous text something that few may have
read....I got back on it purely by accident.
Anyway, her daughter was tested again because there were signs of a
progression of the cancer, but the tests indicated that Kelly was
stable.
Hallelujah, and thanks be to God! Tammy, we may not tell you this
every week, but your family continues to be in our prayers.
Also, every person who has written in with concerns or tragedy is on
my personal prayer list, prayed for daily. Please know that.
- A regular DPS Reader and Contributor
To KyHoosierCat and Eric in OH - thank you both for your insights -
both eloquent yet simply stated. You've opened up a whole heavenly
realm of "hooks" for me to begin! Most appreciated. HSinON
The phrase that is jumping out at me (this time, anyway!) is that the
people "were filled with expectation". Sometimes I look at persons in
my congregation, and I see persons filled with anger, or despair, or
"vinegar"; sometimes, hope, or joy, or "sunshine". To see all of them
filled with expectation that they would encounter the messiah in
worship be a wonderful thing!
John's baptism seems to be an "outside job" while the more powerful
baptism that Jesus will bring is an "inside job." We have a need for
the inside to be clean so that God may use us as vessels of Jesus'
grace.
On a liturgical note, we will be remembering our baptism this Sunday
-- not the act of baptism, but the importance of living as the
baptized of God. I may have gotten the idea through this group years
ago, but we will be placing clear colorless glass beads (found at
craft stores) in the baptismal font and covering them with water.
Using the UM ritual, there are questions to be answered concerning
discipleship, affirmation of faith, thanksgiving over the water, etc.
-- and then the people will come forward to "claim" their baptism by
withdrawing a bead from the water and taking it with them.
OLAS
Alan,
Thanks for the camera ... focus concept. Neat idea. Even if it isn't
used here, it could be used as a different vehicle for shifting focus
within any passage. In this case, it was a neat insight. Thanks. mm in
pa
KHC and Eric in OH,
I agree -- well said. As I was reading through the posts I kept trying
to form in my head something that better explained this passage as an
answer to the earlier question. Thank you for doing it for me. Whew.
Perfect.
mm in pa
To Whoever Wrote the Epiphany series idea last week:
I have been thinking about that all week long, that this whole time
coming up is a series of individual epiphanies about God -- last week,
from the Magi; this week, from John. Neat idea.
mm in pa
DPS Reader & Contributer and Tammy in TX:
Thank you Reader for lifting up that exciting news about Tammy's
daughter Kelly. As you do, and many others I'm sure, I also keep Tammy
and her family and all others who express prayer concerns in my
thoughts and prayers until I hear differently. I missed Tammy's good
news and pray it continues to be so -- stability is a Good Thing!
mm in pa
Okay, now I'm feeling like Sally in GA, thinking in small bites. I
promise this is the last post for a little while.
KHC, I like the idea of your first post above. As I read and prepared
yesterday afternoon for where I thought this sermon might go, that is
somewhat the direction.
I believe I'm going to tie in the Isaiah reading with the Gospel (and
on that page, it's nice to know I"m not the only one who sees the
connection, whew). "I created you. I called you by name, you are
mine." Israel has been called, and we have been called in baptism to
do God's work in this world. The Isaiah passage is not just about, "I
will be with you" -- but "I have called you by name and you are mine."
We have a baptismal vocation. A few weeks ago one of you talked about
the baby in the text that was dedicated to God for service in the
priesthood and how wouldn't it be interesting if we all had that in
mind, nurturing a newly baptized child towards a life with God in that
same way as long ago when children were dedicated to life in the
church (the confines of it, ie, priesthood). I guess that's been on my
mind also, because I believe that is where this week is headed for me.
Israel is called by God to be a light to all nations, chosen by God to
reflect God's love and glory. Our lives also are claimed by God. We
are called by God to do the same. What is it we individually are
called to do? Doesn't always mean "professional ministry" -- but we
are each ministers, ordained or not.
There is some wonderful stuff towards that end in Barbara Brown
Taylor's The Preaching Life (doncha just love her stuff?!), early in
the book. I believe we are each called to do God's service. The trick
for us is finding what that is for us.
Thanks for the help ... and patience.
mm in pa
God is good.
Thanks for the prayers and the celebration of God's grace with me.
Kelly is doing well and starts another round of chemo tomorrow. My son
gets pins put in his ankel on Friday. What a life...God is still good.
Eric in Ohio...
Thanks for the insight on Baptism. I live in a very baptist dominated
area and have had great conversations with my brothers and sisters in
that denomination. But I continue to struggle with the right way to
explain what I know about my baptism. Eric put into words what my
heart understands. Thanks.
Tammy in Texas
Eric in OH, Actually, in our confirmation liturgy, we UMC's do lay
hands on the confirmands and say words akin to "Recieve the Holy
Spirit and be confirmed as a full member of Christ's Holy Church." (My
paraphrase, I'm at home and my book of worship is at church.) So in
liturgy we are saying that their is no indwelling of the HS at the
time of infant baptism but is instead reserved until the confirmand
makes a personal faith profession, accepts the vows made for them at
their baptism, and then has the HS confirmed upon them.
RevIsrael, a UMC guy
Our daughters always looked forward to the youth choir tour every
summer during their high school years. They would practice and
practice and practice, and plan and plan and plan -- what clothes
would they take with them, how much makeup, who would they room
with.... They would sometimes get so caught up with the particulars
that they would forget about the important factors -- what they were
doing and why they were going. It became ritual for us to take them
aside for a few moments just before they boarded the bus and remind
them that while they would be away from parents and people who knew
them, it didn't matter. What did matter was for them to remember who
they were and Whose they were. When we remember our baptism, either at
this annual remembering event or witnessing another's baptism, it is a
time to remember who we are and Whose we are. ps in or
RevIsrael... then, pray tell, what happens at baptism?
In the Episcopal Church, the baptismal formula, "I baptize you in the
Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is used,
after which the newly baptised is chrismated (anointed with oil) with
these words, "N, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit in baptism and
marked as Christ's own forever." Then a prayer of thanksgiving is
offered which begins, "Heavenly Father, we thank you that by water and
the Holy Spirit you have bestowed upon this your servant the
forgiveness of sins...."
The prayer at confirmation is "Strengthen, O Lord, your servant N.
with your Holy Spirit; empower him/her for your service; and sustain
him/her all the days of his/her life. Amen."
Thus, our understanding is that the anointing of the Holy Spirit
occurs at baptism and is reaffirmed and strengthened in confirmation.
I suspect, however, that this was not always the Anglican
understanding. I don't have any of my historical prayer books at home
(where I am writing this), but I would not be surprised if the older
form of confirmation were similar to the UMC form, since much of the
Methodist liturgy is based on earlier Anglican prayer books, since
Wesley was an Anglican after all.
Blessings, Eric in OH
In fact, just because Wesley was Anglican, his own experience can be
instructive. As the son of an Anglican pastor himself, he was
certainly baptized and confirmed according to the practices of the
church. He was also thoroughly instructed in the faith at his mother's
knee, along with his brothers and sisters. He was even trained at
Oxford for the priesthood. Yet it was not until he came to know his
sins forgiven in the Aldersgate experience at age 35, after years as
an ordained Anglican priest that he began to experience the fullness
of the work of the Holy Spirit in his life. Some would call the
Aldersgate experience Wesley's "anointing with the Holy Spirit." While
I don't know that I would necessarily call it that, I would certainly
say it was akin to the voice from above at Jesus' baptism, because at
the point of knowing Christ had died for his sins, his spirit seems to
have moved from sensing himself a fearful slave to God, never sure
that what he was doing was pleasing to God, to knowing himself to be a
beloved child of God, with a sense of peace and joy he had never
before experienced in his relationship with God.
So, when we speak the words of promise and call at baptism and
confirmation, we are acting as the Church on behalf of Christ, who is
the head of the Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit,
witnessing to those wondrous acts God does in human lives as shown in
the lives of countless saints living and dead; but we are not
necessarily saying that those things to which we are referring are
happening syncronously with our words and actions. We are saying that
those things DO happen and CAN happen and, by God's grace, WILL happen
in the life of this particular believer, even though we cannot
anticipate when, where, or under what conditions. Our saying those
words and doing those acts in faithfulness to the God who makes and
keeps promises, among other things, acts to open the possibility that
this person will both be open to such things happening and, by God's
grace, actually seek for their taking place in her or his life.
Doug in IL
KHC,
I would agree with you wholeheartedly, that Jesus is not receiving the
Holy Spirit for the first time at his baptism. It is a setting apart
of him to begin his earthly ministry,(I guess you could say an
ordination of sorts) but if we believe that Jesus was both God and
human, and God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then
don't we have to assume that Jesus was one with the Spirit and His
Father from birth? To say Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his
baptism in this passage for the first time would no doubt be supported
by those who would also adhere to two baptisms, which I don't believe
is at all a scriptural belief.
Susan in Wa.
I love the dialogue on Baptism occuring this week. I wish I was
preaching! The Lutheran liturgy is nearly the same, if not exactly the
same as that of the Episcopal. Could it be that we receive the Holy
Spirit at our baptism (not sure how one gets through life without that
guidance even as a child) and that through instruction and life
experience, we come to realize the power of that Holy Spirit within
us. It is after instruction and some life experience that we are
empowered by the knowledge of what the Holy Spirit has done and can do
in our lives! Just one AIMs thoughts Tammy in Texas
Okay, one more thought.
It occurs to me that my Baptist friends growing up, though not yet
baptized, were still led by the Holy Spirit to encourage me from time
to time. Could it be that the Holy Spirit just is; He comes DOWN to us
BEfore we understand and draws us to the waters of Baptism even if our
families do not? Tammy in texas
Susan in WA,
Thanks for your support of my thoughts. You say that Jesus had the
Spirit within him since birth....I would go one farther and say Jesus
had the Spirit within him even prior to his birth....I am one who
believes Jesus has always been, and that the Trinity did not start
with the Incarnation or Pentecost. While somewhere it says "Today I
have begotten thee", and many would say that means Jesus did not exist
in any form until some point in historical time, I personally hold to
the belief in the pre-existence of Jesus, the Son of God, dwelling as
one with God and the Spirit.
KHC
A few comments,
Certainly Jesus - a part of the One Godhead - always had the Holy
Spirit (pre & post incarnate). Consider that not only was the descent
of the Holy Spirit a public confirmation of Jesus' public ministry,
but also a fulfillment of Isaiah 42:1-7 (esp. v. 1 where the Spirit
rests upon the Messiah, marking Him as the Messiah).
As believers, we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith (1 Cor.
12:3). For some this occurs later in life when they hear the gospel
and are converted. For others, it occurs at the moment of baptism,
when they receive the Holy Spirit in the birth from above via
Spirit-water in John 3.
For those baptized as infants and do not subjectively think they are
"saved" until later in life when they have a conversion experience, it
is not that God's promise contained in their baptisms is unreliable or
faulty. As Luther said, "Baptism puts you into the boat of salvation,
but you certainly can decide to climb out."
Luther in IA
To add to the HS discussion, it is the role of the HS (not the only
role) to convict and convince. How are we drawn, when seekers yet? As
"pre-Christians", as some say. The activity of the Holy Spirit,
speaking, reminding of the Word and Scripture, certainly is present,
isn't it, before any other act? LK in HC
My understanding of the Holy Spirit is that he (and I do choose to use
"he"; I certainly refuse to use "it") is God WITH us and WITHIN us. We
can't do anything about the WITH us part. He's here, and that's that.
But we have to invite him to come WITHIN us, and that happens when we
receive Jesus Christ in baptism. As someone stated earlier, we may not
be fully aware of the presence of the Spirit within us, but he's
there, opening our hearts and our minds to "grow in wisdom", leading
us into living obedient lives. In fact, it is the Spirit who leads us
to baptism, either for ourselves or for our children. It's not a
miracle washing; we don't make a sudden change once we're baptized,
but a gradual spiritual growth, led by the Spirit whom we received,
and who inspired the Biblical writers to pen the words we use to learn
about God, Christ and Spirit and to come to faith.
This puts me into contradiction with the Acts text, where people
accepted the Baptism of Jesus Christ, but had not yet received the
Holy Spirit. I haven't yet figured out how anybody knew they had not
yet received the Holy Spirit - was there some extra ritual they went
through for that or something? Or did their behavior not demonstrate
that they had been touched by the Spirit, so it was assumed they had
not? I don't know....
KHC
I am interested in the part about Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit
and with fire. Also the part about the wheat and the chaff seems to go
with it. Is the gospel writer telling us that when we come to know
Jesus, the benefits of that relationship are two fold: 1) that we will
receive the inspiration of the Holy Spirit toward holiness, and 2)
that we will be refined by fire. It seems to me that the what and
chaff do not represent tow different groups of people, rather, two
aspects of one person. The wheat is the part that is usable, and is
able to be transformed into something higher; while the chaff is the
part that is unusable and if left mixed into the whaet renders it
inferior and virtually unusable. I would love to know what anyone else
thinks about this "rabbit" I seem to be chasing. RC in NC
RC in NC, if you are a paying member of DPS, you can go to the list on
the left of your screen and click on 2003 Lections. On December 14 we
had a lively discussion of Luke 3:7-18, which includes the part about
Spirit and water, chaff, etc.
To get back, click on Current Lections....
Hope this helps. If not, you may get the discussion going again. It
was a good one, I thought.
KHC
OLAS,
What is the UM ritual you refer to for the affirmation of baptism you
plan to use this week w/ the glass beads? I'm Lutheran, so not
familiar w/ that precise ritual from Methodist tradition, but might
wish to "borrow" it. Any chance you could post a copy w/out it
requiring too much space? Or send it to me at mannfamily@loretel.net,
if possible. Thanks.
Heidi in MN
To: RC in NC Re: Chasing Rabbits There is a good outline of the
possible meanings of "Holy Spirit and fire" in the New Intepreter's
Bible if you have the Luke/John volume. It lists 5 possible meanings.
Mostly it ties it to the wheat and chaff, but also makes mention of
the "tongues of fire" ala Acts. It also talks about the possible
reference to a refiner's fire. Appraently no interpretation is
definitive.
To: Eric in OH Re:Confirmation As usual I should keep my mouth shut
until I have the resources at hand. Clearly the UMC liturgy speaks in
terms of the HS being recieved at Baptism. It is at confirmation that
one accepts that for themselves. The liturgy there that I misquoted is
more accurately as follows, "(name), The Lord defend you with his
heavenly grace adn by his Spirit confirm you in the faith adn
fellowship of all true disciples of Jesus Christ." I gotta learn not
to speak off the top of my head, cause it's more blunt than sharp up
there. RevIsrael
I think it is Hope publishing, not in the office can't check that has
a song, "order my steps". I am using it for the baptism of a young man
(8). He has ask to be baptized. (Each person baptized has a song that
gives them advice for their life now in the Spirit.) The song talks
about God's Blessed Will and walking in the Word. This young man will
start his life in the Spirit on Sunday. I am going to combine this
with the lyrics of that song. It talks about the world changes, but
God doesn't. Hopefully by the time we are finished he will be very
aware of the steps he is taking and his journey will be one of
welcoming the Spirit.
I am also heading out next thursay for a Cuban VIM trip to build a
church. With out the power of the Holy Spirit I could not do what I
will be doing in Cuba. I hope to emphazes that all in all that I do I
welcome the presence and power of the Spirit I also heard we will be
preaching(three clergy going.)
Side note off topic, What have any of you heard about the Mel Brooks
Movie about Jesus. I understand it will be released about the time of
Lent. This might be better as a discussion topic. I am thinking of
connecting it to lent.
Nancy-Wi
comment to KHC - I'm confused. In Acts 10, Cornelius' family and
friends receive the HS before Baptism. As a result perhaps of their
faithfulness and righteouness in seeking God. NSHB
KHC,
Then what do you do with John 1, In the beginning was the word. . ."
Did not Jesus pre-exist as word, and then was born as human? I can go
along with Jesus having the Holy Spirit prior to birth, as word, and
part of the trinity.
Susan in Wa.
KHC and others,
In regards to the presence of the Spirit with us from the time of
baptism and the progressive development of the Spirit's presence and
activity in our lives: To me, one of the beautiful things about infant
Baptism, is that it is so wonderfully illustrative of God's grace and
that there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. But then, when
that child lives out their baptism, and comes to a place of actively
taking a deeper step of faith, it is also proof of God's grace that
has been present with them throughout their lifetime.
I have a friend who grew up in the same church I did. Had all the same
teaching I did, but didn't take it seriously, until in her late 20's
early 30's. She now belongs to another church, more fundamental in
theology, and she has said, "I was never taught the basic faith
growing up. I begged to differ with her and said that she had been
taught it, but hadn't accepted it as her own until later. Maybe the
seeds were planted, and it was watered later and came to a place of a
fertile plant. That to me is also proof of God's grace being present
in her life, even when she was off doing her thing as a teen and young
adult. The Grace that holds on to us, and says, "I will never leave
you or forsake you;" the grace that holds onto us, in our rebellion
and sin, and says "I love you still." The grace that rejoices in the
one who was lost who comes back, throwing a party of rejoicing.
Susan in Wa.
One of the things with which we seem to be struggling in the
discussion of the work of the Holy Spirit and the question of the
pre-existence of Christ or the function of the Spirit in Jesus'
baptism is the question of whether God is always everywhere or not. If
God is everywhere, then the Holy Spirit is both "with us" and "within
us" at all times, even when we do not know it. That seems pretty much
like the definition of "grace" to me.
John Wesley wrote about "prevenient grace," the grace that works on,
in, and for us before we even know it is there and that works to bring
us into a covenantal relationship with God through justification, a
"new birth," and sanctification.
Jesus apparently didn't need to go through this process of
justification and sanctification, since he was one with God from the
beginning. However, we are forced to deal with the story that says
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human
favor" (Lk. 2.52). How, we ask, can Jesus increase in divine favor? If
he is one with God from the beginning, can he gain any greater favor
with God by anything he does in his earthly life? It seems impossible.
One of the features of the Trinity in Christian thought is that it
consists of a relationship of perpetual love-giving and receiving. Did
something about that relationship change when the Word was made flesh
in Jesus? Probably not. But if he was fully human, even though also
fully divine, didn't he have some steep learning curve regarding the
continuation of his love-giving and -receiving in the Trinity in light
of the frailty of the flesh? That's probably a question we'll never be
able adequately to answer this side of heaven. But the minds of some
will not be satisfied having such questions unanswered.
One thing we're confronting here is the problem of human language as
it struggles to express the inexpressible. What we're also confronting
is the need we human beings have to make sense of things. And we're
further confronting our tendency to try to make sense of things by
telling stories. So the gospel writers are doing their best to tell
stories that will express the inexpressible as well as that which can
be comprehended in human terms, and it's important that we not get
hung up in asking "when did Jesus know he was God's son" or "when does
the Holy Spirit enter a person," lest we lose sight of the question
"how can I best respond to the Spirit that is always present to and in
me and all others and is calling me and them into fuller relationship
with the One who made us all and to Whom we all belong?"
Yet a part of the function of the story is to help us and others to
have some way to talk intelligibly about this ever-present Spirit and
the ways that Spirit "works" in human lives, as well as the way human
lives were meant to be under the Spirit's influence. Without the
stories, we are left to draw our own conclusions, and if history is
any guide, our conclusions as human beings can be very limited and
very misguided. So we'll need to continue telling--and living--stories
that are tied to and reflect The Story the gospel writers have
struggled to find words to tell.
Doug in IL
After all of that, I just want to add that in reading such things as
the story of the Spirit descending on Jesus "in bodily form like a
dove" or of the voice "from heaven" saying to Jesus "You are my Son,
the Beloved; with you I am well pleased," it is important to remember
that Luke was writing after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus
and probably for people who never knew Jesus personally; so he was
trying to say something that would be important for the people to hear
and to know. He wasn't concerned about the existential situation of
Jesus at the time of the baptism in Jordan or whether he was
pre-existent or became God's Son at the moment of the Holy Spirit's
descent at the time of his baptism. He was concerned about providing
the people something that would inspire them to live like God wanted
them to live and to do so by relating to this human being, Jesus, who
did the best job a human could do in living like God wanted him to,
trusting that the same Spirit that enabled Jesus so to live could and
would enable them to live that way.
So we can say that the Holy Spirit is given to a person at her or his
baptism, even though the Holy Spirit is present always with and in
each person. But the story raises awareness in such a way that it is
possible the person will actually experience something apart from our
words that "tells" them that the Holy Spirit did, indeed, come to them
at their baptism. And that will be the story they tell for the rest of
their life. (This points to the confounding idea that perception is
reality, which is something Susan in Wa referred to as her childhood
friend not taking the church's teaching seriously until she was older,
while Susan had taken it seriously when it was given her. Their
respective perceptions of the same events and material led to their
construing reality differently.) (Sorry for the longwindedness. I hope
some of this makes sense and is helpful.) Doug in IL
Nancy WI,
Mel Brooks made a movie about Jesus...LOL I think I have seen about
every one of his Movies! I don't remember that one! I think I would
have!
Maybe you are thinking of History of the World Part I?
It Begins with Sid Ceasar as a caveman...Discovering marriage, klunk,
club a wife! Then it moves to Ancient Rome...Bea Authur Running the
unemplyment office...Vestal Virgin girl...Gregory hines as a
slave...Madeline Khan and Dom Deloise and Ceasar and Queen...The
Horse's name was Miracle! Gregory Hines had to pass a Eunuch test...lol
he rose to the occassion and failed! MY favorite line, scene the guy
with the boombox on his shoulder blasting "Funkytown, won't you take
to.."
There was a Jesus and Last supper scene...Mel, Greg and the vestal
Virgin were working in a restaurant Mel was the waiter, He kept asking
then questions,saying Jesus...Jesus would answer YES. Leonardo Da
Vinci came to "take" a picture...had them all move to one side to get
them all in...LOL
Then, it moves to the Spanish Inquistion...spoof of a broadway dance
number...Mel was Grand Inquistitor...
It ended with Louis the 17th...Miracle came to rescue at the End!
I love Mel Movies, Blazing Saddles! (A Black Sheriff? Cleavon Little)
Robin Hood,Men in Tights ripped off that line. Life Stinks and other
Movies were good. My favorite TO BE OR NOT TO BE with his wife Anne
Bankcroft... Mel Brooks was a Visionary!
BTW Did Mel do Holy Moses with Lorraine Newman and Dudley Moore, that
was funny movie...he could have had Moses Job, just didnt have the
connections!
O.k.I am thru talking about sacreligous movies...now you know,
conservative Envangelical UMC??? or (closet Liberal) I outted Myself
here on the DPS Board!
~&$%$~ (This is my new unprouncable name) or Just call me The Preacher
formally known and Clerically Blonde in West Ohio... (it has been a
long week, got the sillies)
Hi, I'm new to this discussion board - all this talk of when someone
is filled with the Holy Spirit has set me thinking.... I wasn't
brought up in a Christian family, I wasn't baptised as a child, I
didn't go to Sunday School, but eventually in my Teens went to
Scripture Union Camps and became a Christian then. I was baptised a
couple of years later when I started attending the local Baptist
Church. I'm sure the Holy Spirit was working in me long before I ever
went to camp, for surely it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our
sins and our personal need for salvation through Jesus Christ?
Revmother Scotland
Clerically Blonde - I enjoyed your post. I've only seen bits of
"History of the World, Part I" when it was on TV when I was over my
cousin's house, so I didn't remember the scene of Leonardo Da Vinci
taking the picture. That's just too funny.
That famous scene is an art critic's nightmare. Despite the fame of
the artist, It's actually kitsch, partly because of the reason you
named - like I'm SURE they were all on one side of the table, and
milling about.
But it got me to thinking about kitsch - and its place in culture.
First, let me be clear that I'm talking about "kitsch" as a
cultural/artistic term, not as a derision. While some, like during
Naziism (is that how you spell that?), was truly purposeful and
diabolical, most is something of a reaction - when the culture is
changing, or appears to be changing, kitsch makes a comeback. It's a
reaction either against or for the pendulum swing: think black light
posters, then think Kinkaid. While Kinkaid's are technically "art" and
the posters weren't, neither represents a memory of life as it really
is or was. It's conjecture, at best, and fantasy at worst. None of us
live or have ever seen bucolic villages with inviting lights on at
dusk, any more than we've seen horses rearing at the edge of cliffs
during a fluorescent full moon (that was in my friend's room and I
used to love to look at it).
Anyways, through this sort of "reflection" I'm thinking about my
church and their insistence in remembering life as it never really
was. Their neighborhood is changing, their lives are drawing to a
close, their children and grandchildren have long moved away, racist
values still persist - no wonder they tend to "remember" things that
actually happened in the 1800's.
OK - sorry for such a long post - to get to the Scripture at hand... I
wonder ... was reality more difficult for the disciples and people to
accept than the "kitsch?" And what would be identified as the
"kitsch?" Knowing that it pops up among those who are either changing
the culture or reacting against a perceived change.
Sally in GA - (yes, I'm in my left brain today)
Nancy in WI and @#$^$#@: The movie is from Mel Gibson, not Mel Brooks
(ah-ha! now it makes more sense, eh? :) ) and I've read several
previews on it. It promises to be fabulous - extremely graphic - true
to scripture - and stunning in its depiction of the lengths Christ
went to in order to seal the convenatn requirements for our sake. It's
called "The Passion", and is set to come out in a few months. I
suspect it is not for the faint-hearted .... but then, neither is our
faith. Thank God we're empowered by the Holy Spirit! HSinON
Dear Friends,
I am very impressed by the discussions this week. Yet to be honest, it
all makes my head hurt. I relate to Revmother Scotland and her
frustrations about such things. I know we need to struggle with the
text and at least try to understand the when, where, what and other
questions. But I am not sure we do it well. Academically we can be on
target and yet turn people off. I am definately guilty of that myself.
That's a confession and not a accusation.
Anyway, I would like to float my rough draft for this coming by anyone
who would like to help me with it. I am avoiding most all technical
questions about when the HS is bestowed on us because I believe other
texts in Act and the epistles are more appropriate for that. Jesus'
baptism is unique. How can we tell how that relates to us as
Christians? I am also mindful that I have two churches with particular
problems relating to leadership in particular the visible work of the
church located in committees. Basically we have them on paper but not
in functionality. At the same time we are wondering why we cannot
grow.
So I am tieing Jesus baptism into that. I was on vacation last week so
this is the first sermon of the year. You can read the sermon at:
http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20040111.htm
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine.
Nancy in WI,
You asked about the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of Jesus the Christ"
which will be released on Feb. 25th, I believe. The information I have
on it is this: it is in Aramaic and Latin, with English sub-titles. It
is (supposedly) an entirely accurate look at the last 12 hours of
Jesus' earthly life. It is gruesome and vivid, leaving nothing to the
imagination. However, it does add dialogue that is not found in
Scripture. It does not deal with the Resurrection, other than to
allude to its happening.
I recently received a catalogue from Outlook (?) that actually has a
DVD hidden inside that is a promo for "The Passion of Jesus the
Christ". I haven't looked at it yet, mainly because I don't have a DVD
player.
Mel Gibson is a "traditional" Catholic - Latin masses, KJV, very
Scripture-oriented, considers himself very spiritual. He says he has
been praying about this movie for years. In times of personal trials
has contemplated on the Passion of the Lord to give him guidance, and
wanted to bring this story in graphic form to the world. He sees it as
a huge evangelism tool for Christians to invite non-Christians into a
neutral place (movie theatre) to watch a movie that might just change
their lives.
All this said, will I be going to see this movie? No, I will not. I
decided a few months ago I don't need to actually visualize the
torture my Savior endured to believe he died for my sins, and I am
healed by his stripes. I believe it, sight unseen.
KyHoosierCat
I'm in agreement with what KHC posted about about Mel Gibson's movie
(and I'm tickled pink about the confusion between Mel Gibson and Mel
Brooks -- I would much rather that Mel Brooks made a movie about
Jesus, frankly!)
The promotional material KHC mentions is from Outreach -- mine just
arrived. I have a DVD player in my home computer, so I plan to take it
home and watch it. However, I do not plan to see the movie.
Just one point of correction -- I know that Gibson is sympathetic to
the "traditional" Tridentine Rite Catholics and that his father is a
member of one of those groups, but I'm not sure he is actually a
member. Further, those groups don't use the KJV -- the Douay-Rheims
English version is their preferred text (God Forbid! they should use a
"protestant" translation, eh?)
Blessings, Eric in OH
Eric, I gladly receive the "friendly amendment" to my post. You're
absolutely right about the version of Scripture, etc... Thanks.
KHC
Friends,
Re Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ," check out
www.sermoncentral.com. There is a link near the top for more info on
the movie, and in a left-hand sidebar of free stuff to download, there
is a link for "Passion Sermons." Follow that, check it out, maybe
subscribe to the free newsletter SermonCentral offers, and in it,
you'll receive access to 3 or 4 different sermon series related to the
movie. Can be downloaded in pdf formate for free. Suggested you use
the sermons starting Mar. 21 and ending on Easter. I haven't read any
of the sermons yet, but one is by Lee Strobel and one by John
MacArthur, and many by others I don't know. Bios of the authors are
provided in the pdf version.
I would also add that, even though WE might not feel the need to see
the movie to be convinced, I as a pastor do think it's important to
know what's "out there" that my parishioners are likely to see and be
asking me for my thoughts on. I do expect I will attend for that
reason. It opens Feb. 25, as someone mentioned, which is Ash Wed.
Heidi in MN
I think that the discussion of the HS and Baptism raises the issue of
when and how. Not just when and how we become Christian, but when and
how we become God's children.
I tend to think that God loves us and counts us as beloved from the
moment we are created, not as we are baptized. Can someone get the
Holy Spirit without being baptized? Of course. I don't think that
God's love depends on a human ritual at all. Is someone loved by God
without coming to faith? That's a harder question for some, but I
still think that the answer is yes.
I'm leaning towards the thought that Baptism (and even faith!) is a
physical indication and revelation of the love of God that already
exists and has existed forever.
Lots of places to dig into this one—many of which have been mentioned.
The issues of Prevenient Grace/the Holy Spirit and Baptism is a
fascinating one for me. Another one is John’s question about why Jesus
should be baptized—for which of course I have no (good) answer.
However, I’m intrigued by what scripture and related doctrine mean
when they speak of Jesus’ being “without sin” – a concept brought to
mind (but not articulated) in this text. Sin is a term that is used in
a whole variety of ways—separation from God, specific acts/attitudes,
commission/omission, individual/corporate. Literally, it means
“missing the mark (amarteo). When omission and corporate sin are
tossed into the mix, what does it mean to suggest that any person
engaged in human intercourse can be “sinless”?
West Texas Presbyterian
Wow, what a cool discussion...felt like replying to every post... just
a few remarks:
1. Being raised a Quaker I was "dry cleaned" not water
baptized...(Quakers rely on the belief that the essential baptism is
Christ's, not John's - for a later discussion) so these comments come
across as very refreshing and challenge me to find ways to make this
spiritual baptism real to those who don't get dunked or sprinkled or
misted.
2. I am going to see Mel's movie. I am fascinated by everything our
culture puts forward as a way of explaining
faith/Jesus/God/spirituality. Have you watched "Dogma", "Whale Rider?"
"Bruce Almighty"? I sure understand why others may not want to see it
however,
3. There is very cool clip in "Whale Rider" in which a father gives
his newborn girl the name of the most revered tribal ancestor. The
grandfather is appalled by it. The name should be saved to give to the
next tribal [messiah]. I am going to show that clip in worship in
affirming that God call us ALL to himself and gives us His name...even
if we are not the prototypes for the next spiritual celebrity.
Thanks so much for your posts...I receive them as acts of love.
Stan in Tacoma
I think that you mean the Mel Gibson movie about the life of Christ. I
am looking forward to it myself. I understand that the Pope saw it and
liked it too. PSINIA
I appreciated KHC's reflections on the Holy Spirit being "With" or
"Within" us. Sort of like "tag along" or "tug along." I prefer the
"tug." Far too many of us find comfort in a "tag along" HS instgad of
one that really pulls us towards God's grace and love.
I continue to celebrate the HS's activity which calls us to
servanthood and justice ministries in society over against speaking on
tongues. Both are important, but I'm convinced St. Peter will not
emphasize on "What did you say?" rather "What did you do to help bring
Christ's reign to the world?"
BTW, I continue to find "The Upper Room DISCIPLINES" very helpful both
for preaching and devotion. "The Upper Room" is nice but too "thin"
for me. For those who do not know, DISCIPLINES follows the RCL. Much
meatier.
This week's series by Maxine Clarke Beach, dean of Drew Seminary in
New Jersey is entitled "Fire and Water." Her daily "suggestions for
meditation" provide informative and challenging questions relating to
the texts.
Pastor Bud Immanuel United Methodist Church Saipan, CNMI
hi folks,
i often like to use the poem/hymn by thomas troeger that i've pasted
below in baptismal-themed services. i've slightly adapted it to make
it work for a well known tune in my context, but i always find it
helpful in my reflections so thought i'd post it here. it's from his
book 'borrowed light'.
What King would wade through murky streams and bow beneath the wave,
ignoring how the world esteems the powerful and the brave.
Christ gleams with water brown with clay from land the prophets trod.
Above him while the clouds give way descends the dove of God.
Come bow with Christ beneath the wave. He stands here at your side and
raises you as from the grave God raised him crucified.
Water, River, Spirit, Grace come and sweep over me; recarve the depths
your fingers traced in sculpting, forming me.
cheers,
kc in sydney
Dear Friends,
This is Warblings in NJ. I am writing to apologize for not responding
to inquiries about a sermonette offered in a posting on the 2nd Sunday
after Christmas - Ephesians Text. My hubby had a cardiac emergency
that week and I forgot all about my posting. I didn't preach that
Sunday so my mind was totally elsewhere. The sermonette can be used as
a tie-in with Epiphany or with the general theme of "following Jesus."
I've now posted the sermonette on the Ephesians contribution site for
Jan 4th if anyone is still interested. Posting here and there seemed
the best way to correct the situation. Blessings to all and prayers to
Eric and his family... My hubby is doing well, thanks to God's
provisions!
Warblings
What the heck - I'll join the chorus. I like Mel Brooke's movies too.
I think it was in one of his where, towards the end, there was a scene
in which there was a tent in which a Jewish Rabbi (played by Mel?) was
doing circumcisions and a sign over the tent read "Today's special:
half off". I thought it quite humerous.
Anyway, speaking of circumcision, the early Jewish Christians
struggled with the idea of Gentiles becoming Christians without the
need for circumcision - that is, following the Jewish Laws. Paul, i
think it was, put them straight about that. Perhaps, in a similar
vain, Jesus was baptised merely so he would fit in with the Jews and
be acceptable and hearable. Not for his own benefit at all.
Jesus said a blind man wa blind not because of sin but that glory
mught be brought to God when his vision is restored miraculously.
Perhaps Jesus was baptised to bring glory to God in this special
moment.
Who knows? and as some have suggested does it matter?
I'm a "the Holy Spirit is in us always" person myself, we just have to
recognise it and that is when the moment of faith happens for us.
Psalm 139 suggests this to me.
Lastly - yes, i'm almost done - have any of you noticed the
interesting analogy to this reading that has occured this week. The
Martian heavens opened and the Spirit descended (apparently the Mars
Rover is called the Spirit) and no doubt voices were heard to say
(from earth, not the heavens as such - although to a Martian...) after
the safe landing "this is our 'baby' in which we are all pleased"!
Rev Chris in Australia
Let me join in the affirmation of this weeks discussion. It's been
very fruitful in my parched orchard!
I am a UMC Pastor and a couple of years ago the UMC put out a
statement concerning baptism in which it affirmed that Christian
baptism was a rite of initiation. Part of the reason why in the UMC
liturgy the parents of an infant answer questions AND the congregation
answers questions. I personally love this aspect of baptism. In fact
the moment my hand hits that water I am usually in tears, especially
in the ritual of infant baptism. The fact that we join together in
this community and nurture each other in Gods love and grace is
literally the most powerful tool God uses to change us and change our
world as we pray every week in the "Lord's Prayer" thy kingdom
come...they will be done. Having said that... what if we saw Jesus'
baptism as a way to express that he is "one of us". He doesn't HAVE to
be baptised but he is anyway.
I also like the reference to the "water and fire" the water is a
cleansing especially in Johns baptism of repentance, but the fire is
that thing, that process, that refines us. Ahhhh the fires Jesus will
face.... his home town calling him stupid.... people trying to throw
him off a cliff... the temptation of the evil one in the wilderness...
the temptation of Peter telling him to bag it all and just be king...
the soldiers spitting on him... pilot's interigation... the cross...untill
he is perfect on the third day. My fires and refining don't end with
me revealed as fully God (As my wife will attest!) but they do serve
to refine me in faith and in a relationship with that one who said
through baptism "i'm God but I'm also part of you"
I know thats mostly heretical but it's only Wednesday. It's always a
bummer to find out on Monday (well Tuesday, Monday is my day off) you
were a heretic on Sunday. Just some ideas I'm kicking around
Mark in SW WA
TO: Mark in SW WA From: Mike in Sunshine
As a fellow heretic, I salute you! In all seriousness before this year
I had always been characterized as the voice of orthodoxy. Now because
I am sticking to orthodox Christianity United Methodist style I am
suddenly a liberal and a heretic. At first it really bugged me. Now I
am standing tall. My aim is to be so Wesleyan that I am fired from the
United Methodist Church! As the old 70's phrase went, I am "letting it
all hang out".
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Mark and Mike -- Maybe it's because I'm an Anglican to whom the
concept of a "systematic" theology is foreign, but I fail to see
anything heretical in Mark's comments. Baptized by water, yes;
baptized by fire and the Spirit, yes; tested in the refiner's fire,
fer shur! That's what the Christian life promises. Where's the heresy?
Blessings, Eric in OH
