Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 14:25-33
14:25 Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and
said to them,
14:26 "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother,
wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself,
cannot be my disciple.
14:27 Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my
disciple.
14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first
sit down and estimate the cost, to see whether he has enough to
complete it?
14:29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to
finish, all who see it will begin to ridicule him,
14:30 saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to
finish.'
14:31 Or what king, going out to wage war against another king,
will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten
thousand to oppose the one who comes against him with twenty thousand?
14:32 If he cannot, then, while the other is still far away, he
sends a delegation and asks for the terms of peace.
14:33 So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you
do not give up all your possessions.
Comments:
"Hate life itself" We say we love life, but without the Spirit of God
I fear welove the parts that please our will. Maybe that is what God
means? Nancy-Wi
Jesus speaks frankly about the costs of discipleship. Those who follow
him should know from the outset that they will have to renounce
allegiance to all competing concerns.
Brochures that beckon visitors to Alaska depict breathtaking
mountains, pristine seascapes, and plentiful opportunity. Few explain
how difficult life can become there. Hence, newcomers experience some
surprises at the array of abandoned homes, vehicles, and places of
business that dot the Alaskan landscape. Unfinished and barely used
structures stand in silent testimony to the harsh, unforgiving winters
and to dreams that failed under their assault.
Similar ghosts haunt the landscapes of our lives. As unfinished
projects clutter our attics, so do abandoned marriages and friendships
lie strewn in our wake. Perhaps we didn't count the cost or couldn't
imagine what genuine commitment might ultimately require. The same
goes for our responses to vocation and discipleship. Most of us know
too well the builder Jesus describes, the one with a half-built tower
that's become the town joke, or the general who entered battle
short-handed. Perhaps we'll do better one day, but we'll never be rid
of all our failures.
In the end, it doesn't matter how much debris we leave behind. Christ,
who calls us to discipleship, finished his project. He faced the army
alone. His curious tower, the cross outside Jerusalem, stands
complete. That's enough, both for him and for us who are baptized into
his cruciform project.
When visitors ask Alaskans why nobody cleans up those abandoned
vehicles and buildings, they respond with their own surprise. "Are you
kidding?" they reply. "That's our parts department. If we need wood,
wire, or a whole wall, we go to one of those and get it! The same if
someone lacks a starter motor or a headlight." In a way, the body of
Christ works like that. To God, even our unfinished projects have some
use. By God's grace, a bit of mine and a piece of yours eventually
amount to a whole tower.
God isn't finished with any of us just yet.
Frederick Niedner
"For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first sit down
and estimate the cost, to see whether he has enough to complete it?
"Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish,
all who see it will begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began
to build and was not able to finish.'" 14:28-30
Could this be the Tower of Babel that Jesus mentions here? What is he
referring to with regard to the number of warriors?
No doubt, we must learn to ponder, weigh, what is before us and to
make a choice, a decision. It is only when we are detached from our
possessions that such freedom exists to choose.
tom in ga
several random thoughts....
there was a song in the late 80's early 90's with the chorus, "come on
baby, finish what ya started" i think it was by van halen...
the words that are written in this pericope are extremes from the
emotional standpoint (ie - hate and ridicule). what i am beginning to
wrestle with is an understanding of the radical reorientation of the
person that is necessary to come before Jesus as a follower.
part of my trouble here is the counting of the costs... ~in the first
portion, you have this radical metaphorical statement about hating
family members that is antithetical to Jesus' mission (I have not come
to abolish the law but to fulfill it)...
~secondly, there is movement to the costs of discipleship (ie -
carrying the cross)...
~but, third, there are these visual examples of some sort of
calculated discipleship, or in the interpretive sense, if you follow
me and you fail, people will laugh at you, or on the other hand a
stark realization of the facts that one cannot win when they are up
against overwhelming odds, therefore it is wise to admit this and
humbly come before God seeking peace rather than proving one's case in
vain...
~fourth, and this almost seems tacked on from some other place, you
have the command to give up everything in order to become a true
disciple, which in turn seems to counteract the caluculated portion of
the images...
all of this is to say what? i think it is the idea of the
transformative nature of complete dependance on God, complete devotion
to God, and complete discipleship with God...
like i said, some random thoughts...
tom in ga-
i would vote that this does not refer to the tower of babel, but is
more in line with using logic and insight to drive home a point to a
crowd that probably has a varying capability of understanding what he
was trying to tell them... as a pastoral counselor, i often use images
and metaphors (speaking in pictures, is what i call it) to get across
a point or find a back door into some things that people share with
me, i find that it is hepful to have pictures to wrap our
consciousness around and manipulate into some form of understanding...
my sense is that these refer less to actual events and more to an
understanding of the life we are called to...
this is longer than i expected, my bad...
niebuhrian in va
niebuhrian in va,
Thank you for your insight regarding the Tower of Babel. The reason
that story came to mind was that it was in the deep memory of the
hearers; they they had sought to build without knowing whether or not
it was God's will, and when they found out, it was too late. It seems
to me that this lesson is about discipleship, a self-surrendering to
God and a letting go of those attachments that keep us from fully
following in the way of the Cross.
tom in ga
"14:33 So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not
give up all your possessions."
Giving all we have is necessary to discipleship. The hardest of all is
our will. When we go forth for God we are to figure the angles, but
from God's point of view.
Nancy-Wi
I watched the movie, "The Passion." There Simon of Cyrene carried the
cross for Jesus. He was hit by soldiers. He tried to quit his carrying
the cross. Was it his choice? When we started carrying the cross, we
had to know what we would be expected to do and what would be coming
in our lives ahead. We had to calculate. And also we need to know that
we are not alone. With Christ? What does that mean carrying the cross?
What is the cross for me? What is the cross for our church? How do we
define the cross in this time? and the meaning of the cross? Just
scattered my thoughts of the scripture. ID
I watched the movie, "The Passion." There Simon of Cyrene carried the
cross for Jesus. He was hit by soldiers. He tried to quit his carrying
the cross. Was it his choice? When we started carrying the cross, we
had to know what we would be expected to do and what would be coming
in our lives ahead. We had to calculate. And also we need to know that
we are not alone. With Christ? What does that mean carrying the cross?
What is the cross for me? What is the cross for our church? How do we
define the cross in this time? and the meaning of the cross? Just
scattered my thoughts of the scripture. ID
Ok well here is my 2 cents:
You notice how he has Large crowds following him right? Well he does
not get excited that he is popular or has many followers. He is
skeptical. He questions them.
He says that you must hate your father, mother, etc, and hate your
life. If you dont you cant be my disciple. That is what he said in VS
26. Well it does not mean literally hate. I think it means to Love
less. You love God so much you dont care what you family thinks about
your walk with God.
For Example: If God tells you to go on a missions trip and your family
tells you to take a big job or go to college. You are going to listen
to God.
You Love God so much that it looks like your love for your family is
hatred. You dont love your family any less. Its just that you Love God
so so much.
Then it goes on to talk about building a tower. That analogy is there
to tell us to estimate the costs for God. Think about what we are
getting into before we get into it.
Then it talks about the King and the War. Well Christianity is a war
right? When we become christians we join a battle and an army. We are
in a war. People persucute us, hate us for our faith. Also we are
going to be battling ourselves. Our own temptations and desires.
What Jesus is saying here is that if you are not willing to go out and
fight in the battle and Fight for god, you are of no use to him. You
cant be his disiple. he says Go Home.
I hope i did all right.
Chris, 16, in CA
tom in ga ponders whether there would be a temptation towards a
"calculated" discipleship. I think this is what happens when taking
the plunge goes to its extreme, and what was once "a severe mercy" or
a "cost of discipleship" becomes legalistic rigidity whereby people
are just re-inventing ways to pay for their own grace.
Unrelated thought: in our area of rapid development, the landscape is
literally littered with unfinished building projects - and people do
look on it as ridiculous. There is a little strip mall where the land
is actually graded and the foundation laid ... and hasn't been built
yet. It's going on 5 years. Conventional wisdom says, "They lost their
backer."
Parlay this into a spiritual discipleship theme and if we're relying
on God to be our backer, we've got the tower of babel all over again.
Sally in GA
For me the reading from Jeremiah adds a lot to Jesus' words. If we
cannot give our whole selves to God, as Jesus says, even at the
expense of our families or our own lives. If we cannot be fully
shaped, pushing and pulling at the craftsmans hands then we may find
ourselves the obligatory ashtray as opposed to the pot or jug that we
and God wish us to be.
chris, 16 and others~
here is how i see it:
for me, i always go back to the first commandment: we are to love God,
not idols or things or even other people above God. we can become so
consumed by the other stuff that we forget to put God first and that's
when everything else falls apart. it's why we write the check for God
first rather than buying groceries, or getting our nails done, or
paying the electric bill, or going to the movies.
and that can be a constant battle.
but then jesus does give us another commandment: to love one another.
it seems contrary to what he says here, but it's really not. loving
others requires a discipline, a willingness to go all the way when
it's easier to give up.
jesus, himself, becomes the illustration to his own point. he loves
God first despite the cost; he knows what is coming and what will be
required of him. and he loves others: all the way (to the cross and
back).
i don't know that i would say we are to love others less than God, but
rather we are supposed to love God first. loving God first gives us a
clear picture of the world and gives us the courage and the necessary
means to love others fully.
are you interested in going on a mission trip? i wondered from your
post if you were struggling over this issue with parents?
God's peace, christine at the shore
Chris, 16, in CA,
Let me echo part of what you said, and wonder about another part.
Yes, "to hate" (in both Hebrew and Greek thought) does often mean "to
love less." That is why God and love Jacob and hate Esau. It is not
that God hated Esau in the way that we understand the term "hate."
After all, 1 John 3:15 says "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer."
That's more in line with our understanding of the term hate: to
utterly detest.
On the other hand, our parents are gifts of God to us, and sometimes
their long-term wisdom for us should not be ignored in favor of a
short-term mission trip. A relative of mine could have gone straight
to Madagascar for mission. Instead, he went first to medical school,
so that he could be a medical missionary. He was able to serve, and to
love God's people in very necessary ways because of his willingness to
delay his mission in order better to prepare for his mission.
It is not always as easy as pitting the desires of our parents against
the desires of a church leader. Hopefully, parents and church leaders
both will speak the word of God for the people in their care.
Hopefully, parents and church leaders will work together to further
the mission of Jesus Christ in the world.
Thanks for your contribution, and, yes, you did all right.
Michelle
Please forgive my typo, should have been, "God COULD love Jacob and
hate Esau."
Chris,
You're quite right about the need to estimate costs before taking the
plunge into discipleship. And that you do love your family, but that
love for God ought to be "more." Your mission trip example, though,
may be easier said than done: if you're unemployed and your family is
in debt and God tells you to go on a mission trip (or so you think),
do you go, or do you take the job that comes along? It would be more
difficult to discern God's true will in this case.
"Hate" means "hate," pure and simple ... though it's possible (likely)
that Jesus is speaking hyperbolically, exaggerating for effect. It's
clear that there is a choice to be made and that the best choice is to
be Jesus' disciple ...
As to Christianity being a war. Only metaphorically (as in against
evil), my friend, and in these days of fragile international
relationships, I would hesitate quite humbly before broadcasting the
statement. I'd much rather stand for Christ than against anything /
anyone else. The "against" will fall away defeated as long as our love
for Christ is steadfastly demonstrated. I speak from experience: many
would call me evil (and have!) even as I'm trying to demonstrate God's
love. Do I declare war right back at them, thinking I'm going to win?
Well ... it doesn't operate that cleanly. If it did, there would be no
need for different denominations, different religions, or even
different political parties: we'd just enforce the "right" thing. On
the other hand, not letting adversaries distract you from doing your
good, goes a long long way towards doing God's will.
If you are 16, I'd say you are a bright and dedicated boy / girl, and
I hope you keep touching bases at the Desperate Preacher's Site. You
could lend a breath of fresh air for all of us!
God bless you.
Sally in gA
Fred Craddock writes:
"At verse 25 Luke alerts the reader that these words are spoken to
people who come to him, he is not calling them out to a life of
discipleship. One is to read what follows, therefore, as the response
of Jesus to the enthusiasm of persons who seem totally unaware that he
is going to Jerusalem and to the cross.
"Jesus is on his way to Jerusalem, but what is the nature of the
journey? Is it a funeral procession? Apparently only Jesus has
seriously faced the issue of his death; the Twelve certainly have not
yet grasped it. Is it a march? Very likely some think so, investing a
good deal of emotion in imagining the projected clash: Galilee versus
Jerusalem, peasants versus power, laity versus clergy, Jews versus
Romans, Jesus versus the establishment. Is it a parade? Obviously the
crowd thinks so, oblivious to any conflict, any price to pay, any
cross to bear. The crowds swell; everybody loves a parade. What does
Jesus have to say to hasty volunteers? In sum, his word is, Think
about what you are doing and decide if you are willing to stay with me
all the way.
"To the call to cross bearing, heard earlier at 9.23, is joined the
almost frightening demand to hate one's family and one's own life. To
hate is a Semitic expression meaning to turn away from, to detach
oneself from. There is nothing of that emotion we experience in the
expression "I hate you." Were that the case, then verse 26 would
cancel all the calls to love, to care, to nourish, especially one's
own family (1 Tim 5.8), found throughout both Testaments. And to hate
one's own life is not a call for self-loathing, to regard oneself as a
worm, to toss oneself on the trash heap of the world. We have not been
gien any right to judge ourselves. Paul considered valueless "rigor of
devotion and self-abasement and severity of the body" (Col 2.23). What
is demanded of disciples, however, is that in the network of many
loyalties in which all of us live, the claim of Christ and the gospel
not only takes precedence but, in fact, redefines the others. This can
and will necessarily involve some detaching, some turning away.
"The two parables embedded in this passage (28-32) say in their own
way what Jesus is saying in the preceding verses: Are you sure you
wish to follow me? Is the price more than you are willing to pay? The
first parable is drawn from rural life and involves building a tower
in a vineyard from which the farmer can stand watch against thieves
and foraging animals. The second pictures the royal house where great
issues of war and peace are settled. But rich and poor alike, royalty
and peasants alike, have essentially the same decision to make when
faced with a major expenditure of time, property, and life itself:
Does this cost more than I am able or willing to pay? The decision is
no different when one is facing the call to discipleship: the
enthusiasm for beginning is there, but do I possess the resources to
carry through to completion? In the undisciplined idealism of the
1960s many dreams soured and noble enterprises fell short of action,
but one practice (among many) was begun that for the church seemed
appropriate and healthy. In many churches, when persons presented
themselves for membership, the question was asked, "Do you know what
you are doing? Do you realize what this means?" A period of
instruction followed, not solely on matters of doctrine but of the
costs of discipleship, after which the persons, having counted the
costs, were given the opportunity to say yes or no. The procedure
recognized the difficulty of being a Christian in a culture that
assumed that everyone was in a situation where, as Luke says, "there
was a great multitude." Regrettably, in churches with declining
memberships and budgets, many feel that recitals of cost or anything
else possibly discourageing to prospective members should be delayed,
if not eliminated altogether."
if there ever was a way to thin out a large crowd, give them a task
that seems greater than they are capable of handling...
the two anchoring statements of this pericope "Whoever does not carry
the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple" and "So therefore, none
of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your
possessions" bely the extreme nature of the request of the faithful.
however, they are tempered by the calculation examples that are stuck
in between them.
therefore, i wonder if it is appropriate to talk about the nature and
properties of faith, the "irrational exhuberance" of giving oneself
totally to God, and the "calculated discipleship" of truly
understanding how faith interacts with the world in a way that is
meaningful and brings about some measure of the kingdom of God on
earth.
all of this is tempered by the Jeremiah passage and the understanding
of ourselves as spoiled clay that is in need of reworking by the
gentle hands of God (can't escape my calvinism sometimes)...
my apologies if this seemes everywhere at the moment, my mind is
trying to reconcile some the implications of the tension between
cognitive and emotional aspects of faith and how they are to work
together in this pericope to draw one nearer to God in a manner that
is faithful to our calling as "lights in the world"...
niebuhrian in va
To all, Thanks for posting. I would recommend you read Colman
McCarthy's book I'd Rather Teach Peace and Desmond Tutu's book "God
has a Dream" The first may be in your church library if you are a UM.
It is a book on the United Methodist Women reading list. The second is
a new book just out. I have found both interesting. Would anyone else
be interested in posting on the discussion site their own book
reviews? Nancy-Wi
One must wonder how many from the "large crowds" still continued to
"travel with" Jesus after they learned from him what all is involved
in being his disciple. He turns to tell them all that they must not
only give up much, but actually "hate" (father, mother, wife,
children, brothers, sisters, even life itself) to be his disciple.
That kind of call to strict undivided loyalty might lead even the best
of them to look for another path that is not quite so costly to one's
self (with "self" understood to include all that is valued by us).
Surely Jesus' demands are too costly! The task of building seems
unending (v.29); and the odds are seemingly against us in the battle
to be faithful in a world filled with temptation and hate (v.31). So
we pull back, retreat into our old more tried and true ways of saving
our shirt, or saving our face—holding on to our "self." We become
disheartened at the price tag of following Jesus, because our hearts
are still too much clinging to things close to us, to family, to life
itself. "Thanks, but no thanks," is the unfaithful response of our
disheartened souls.
Ultimately, the real danger is not simply that we have withdrawn from
the frontlines of being a disciple, nor simply that we are hiding in
the crowds, but that in our reluctance to pay the price, we end up on
the short end of the stick in God's final reckoning. If Jesus' call to
discipleship is too much to risk, then we are left with our present
course of action. That has its divine repercussions in the final
counting of the cost for our lives.
What we need to consider is Who it is that calls us to the path of
discipleship. Jesus is the One who treasures our being, paying the
price for our short-sightedness and our account which is in arrears
toward God. Through him we are re-valued as people of new worthiness,
and we are accounted before God as wall-to-wall righteous. He will not
abandon us, no matter the cost to himself, no matter the odds that he
must risk for that venture to save us.
Since Jesus has paid that much for us, then taking up our own crosses
does not seem so outrageous, especially when the ultimate End of all
our building is in sight. We trust, in faith, that we cannot lose, no
matter what the odds. Our spirits are buoyed through the assurance
that Jesus is with us.
When we recognize that Jesus' style of "hating" is loving the other
with an undying love, we realize that the cost is enormous. But we
become people bold enough to risk losing everything—including our
"self"—because even in losing we are on the winning path with our Lord
who has gone before us—and he is the One who will see us through to
the end.
Mike Hoy
Hello, I'm new. I am an interim lay minister in a small church in TX,
largely untrained, and your comments are very enlightening. Thank you.
I'm not sure where to put my next comment, but with regard to what is
happening on the Discussion board, perhaps one more bolder than I
might quote Jeremiah 18 vss. 1- 6; that God took the old covenant and
softened it and remolded it in his hands, like the potter does the
clay, into the new covenant of faith and salvation thru Jesus.
It would be interesting to see what these self-professed Jewish
faithful would make of those verses.
Julia
Wow, hard saying again! Can wait to see how everyone dance around it.
Or may be we could all just quit and preach from the Psalm instead.
It's more pastoral on the Psalm's pasture...
"Large crowds" were following Jesus, and He DISCOURAGE them from doing
so! When was the last time we say, "Are you sure you want to become a
Christian? It's going to cost you!"
My professor once said, "The question of the modern church today, is
how far are we going to set up that sign of 'if you won't carry the
cross and follow Jesus, you cannot be a disciple!' In some churches,
this big sign was right in front of the church, the commitment were
demanded up front when you even just come in for a visit. In some
other churches, this sign was burried way back there in the storage
room. You could function all your life at that place and didn't
realize that there is such a requirement to follow Jesus. Where are
you going to setup that sign for the church? In the middle, of course
- but what part of the middle?"
My answer was, "the part in the middle, among all other of Jesus
disciples!" The cost of discipleship is simply NOT a message to be
held up, but it is a message to be LIVE OUT. The problem that we have
today is that we don't have enough "disciples" in the church in order
to display the sign with the lives of the church-goers. (In this
context here, you simply CANNOT be a disciple, unless you 1) carry the
cross, and 2) follow Jesus)...
So, what do we do. We pounded the pulpit harder, we tried to
communicate clearer, etc. But it simply not working. Why? Because it
takes much more than preaching to make a disciple...
Well, I better get off my soap box before people ask me more
questions. For simply, I am still struggling to figure out how to be a
disciple-makers. For starter, in this lesson, Jesus discourage the
crowd from following Him if they are not really ready to count the
cost of "family", "even life itself", "the cross", and my favorite:
"all your possessions".
Coho, Midway City.
Frederick Niedner --
I like your take on the scripture. Where did you find the Alaska
example?
WC in AR
It's a rather disconcerting feeling to sit down and begin thinking
about next Sunday's sermon not knowing if I'll have a church building
in which to preach. At this point Hurricane Frances (all category 4 of
her) is making a bee-line to Miami, but we really don't know what the
next few days will bring. Of course, that's really a metaphor for
life, isn't it? We had a school parent go in for routine cardiac tests
and then had a massive cerebral hemorhage before the bypass could be
performed and is now on life support with no brain activity.
We just never know, do we?
Somehow this all ties in with Sunday's propers -- even the best plans
for building that tower can't predict its being hit by an airplane;
only our trust in God is unshakeable, unchangeable.
Some early-in-the-week thoughts... --revwaf
revwaf-
having lived in Charleston, SC and now hearing the remmants of blowing
Gaston overhead, I know a little about the fear and helplessness of
the anticipation of these natural disasters. My thoughts and prayers
are with you and your congregation as you sweat out the storm down
there...
grace and peace, niebuhrian in va
revwaf -- you are in my prayers.
Chris -- thanks for your post! It truly was refreshing. Are you a lay
preacher or just an interested Christian man? Please continue to add
your comments. They are welcome and you did good!
As a Catholic turned Protestant PREACHER, I can tell you I personally
feel the impact of this gospel lesson. I have had many "discussions"
(okay, I'll confess they were arguments) with family about my faith
choices and my suitability to enter into pastoral leadership. I have
had to love my family less and focus instead on my love for God.
I imagine Jesus saw that these people would all have to answer to
their family members too, should they ultimately choose to follow him.
He was going away from their traditions and much of what they thought
they knew about God. It is a difficult thing for families to accept
the choice to follow a different path of faith. Not for the
faint-hearted, let me tell ya!
Pastor Janel in ND
The whole language about "making" disciples seems to fly in the face
of Christ's comments here. He says, "Even I can't MAKE disciples, but
I can invite them, and be straightforward about what it means...AND,
most powerfully, I can show them what it means (costs). I think that's
the best we can expect to do, the last part being the most difficult.
Dallas Willard once told me, "Don't say to people "follow Jesus."
Instead, say, "Follow me as I follow Jesus." I backed off from that
because it seemed self-aggrandizing, but in light of this discussion,
perhpaps I should take it more seriously - maybe to the point of
asking Christ how I might demonstrate that same level of
self-sacrifice and commitment.
An eternal beginner.
Stan, the Quaker from Tacoma
You know, if I had really sat down one day and counted the personal
cost of building a bridge to God and then walking the full span of it
myself to reach my goal, I don't know that I would have signed on the
dotted line. Even giving the 10% allowed in estimating amounts, I
think I may have thought that it was too costly and I might have said
no thanks, God, I'll do without. Even if I had started with all good
intentions and great blueprints, chances are 100% that construction
would have been halted because of my inability to complete the job.
However, thank God (literally speaking) he had a better blueprint, and
I wasn't going to be starting from scratch. Jesus had already built
this bridge for me. All I had to do was decide to walk it. I wouldn't
even have to walk it alone. All along the way, he would be there.
Jesus would carry me when I couldn't go another step myself, Jesus
would sit down with me when I felt overwhelmed, Jesus would be there
for me even when I wasn't there with him. If I had to rely on my own
credit, determination and will power to be a strong disciple, this
bridge would have dead-ended over the cliff a long time ago. Or fallen
down in a heap.
The cost of the bridge is on Jesus' shoulders. When I stop to consider
the cost, it brings me to my knees. Perhaps that's how I need to be
walking this bridge - on my knees.
new subject, old theme -
Jesus is speaking to 1st century people for whom claiming to be a
disciple of the Nazarene was going to be a ticket to a cross of their
own, or a stoning post, or being hurled down a hillside. We must
always remember there are Christians today, in many parts of the
world, where their faith remains a reason to face literal death. For
so many of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ, that bridge walking
exacts a very severe toll. How fortunate we are in the free world that
we have less demanded of us to give up in order to be followers of
Jesus. How sad that we are less likely to do it than our oppressed
fellow Christian believers. We'll live our Christianity as long as it
doesn't interfere with our lives.
A good hymn choice for us traditionalists out there:
Jesus calls us o'er the tumult of our life's wild restless sea, Day by
day his sweet voice soundeth, Saying "Christian, follow me."
Jesus calls us from the worship Of the vain world's golden store, From
each idol that would keep us, Saying "Christian, love me more."
In our joys and in our sorrows, Days of toil and hours of ease, Still
he calls, in cares and pleasures, "Christian, love me more than
these".
Jesus calls us: by thy mercies, Saviour, may we hear thy call, Give
our hearts to thine obedience, Serve and love thee best of all.
Cecil F. Alexander, tune Galilee
KHC
Pastor Janel in ND,
I grew up in ND. Can you tell me where you are? You can email me at
rowell.michelle.r@usa.net
Michelle
Thomas Keating once gave an example of all the different "voices" that
can crowd out or hide the voice of Jesus. For example, the voice of
the media, our past, our history, our parents, etc...some of these
"voices" are helpful and some of them are harmful. The cost of
discipleship is that we risk expectations of others, we risk what
people think of us, we risk many things, including our expectations of
family. This complicated Gospel blends with Psalm 139 as it talks
about our identity as children of God (God's intimate relationship
with each of us through Christ)and being shaped by the potter/Creator
in Jeremiah. The risk and the cost of discipleship is balanced out
with the supporting texts around the Gospel. It's about relationship,
intimacy, lack of self, dependence on God and pointing us back to
first loving the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul and mind.
Lady pastor in MN
revwaf~
i will be praying for you and your congregation.
God's peace, christine at the shore
My husband is a businessman, I'm a pastor. He thinks that churches
have a fundamental misunderstanding of themselves, in a business
analogy: The Pastor is the Employee, the Members are the Customers.
(therefore it is the pastor's job to satisfy the customers, ie the
members. also known as the "suck-the-life-out-of-you" model of
ministry)
He points out that a more truthful model would have the Members as the
Employees and "everybody out there" as the Customers! the pastor would
be HR or training, but another employee among other employees.
He was discussing this at a small dinner party of church members, to
which we'd been invited. Someone attempted to argue that if Church
Members aren't the Customers, at the very least, they are the
Shareholders. My husband retorted, "No, God is the Shareholder. We are
trying to create value for God!"
This may illuminate the reading: it's an invitation to become an
employee. Grace is for everybody, including customers and employees:
but if you want to become an employee of Jesus Christ, the demands on
you will be high.
Too shy to sign.
Too shy to sign
I think the attempt to look at the church in a business model from any
perspective is misguided and deceiving.
The church is nothing less than the arriving Kingdom of God-there are
no customers.
Pr.del in Ia
Simon of Cyrene was forced to carry the cross, we have a choice. The
theme for this week's Gospel is counting the cost of Discipleship.
Jesus asks are you prepared to give up, and he lists , even Possesions.
Jesus was in fact saying to us- Before you get started with me , Count
the cost. Cheap Grace is a good theme to explore re this text.
saintwin- Florida
Counting the costs. Does it mean to make sure that you can afford to
complete the project or simply to recognize that, yes, there are costs
to discipleship? It always seems to me that while grace is free,
discipleship is not necessarily cheap. Salvation is a gift, freely
given. Discipleship is full of hard decisions which have been known to
tear apart families, destroy friendships, and even cost one's very
life or the lives of loved ones. Maybe that's why we have churches
full of the saved but not so many disciples. If my wife had said that
she would leave me if I became a pastor, would I still have answered
the call? I know some who did and their families were broken. If my
father had said that he would kill me if I became a Christian, would I
have the nerve to follow Christ anyway? If I knew that I would face
imprisonment for preaching Christ, would I preach anyway? These are
issues that Christians face today in other nations. If speaking the
truth that my congregants don't want to hear could cost me my
appointment, would I speak it anyway? Some of you in this discussion
group have been there. Maybe what the church needs is more disciples
who have counted the potential cost and found that it was worth the
price rather than "saved" pew-warmers. Maybe we have so many
pew-warmers because there doesn't seem to be a cost to count. Just
some thoughts. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Dear Too Shy to sign
My natural thoughts for your post makes it hard for me not to respond.
I think I'd like to hear about is YOUR call and your understanding of
pastors in a congregation. Since I now know how your spouse thinks and
what God has told him to do regarding his business. (God bless him as
he follows that business call, I am fascinated by a clergy who I just
feel has been called, and that God can use according to directions
directly given to HER. I don't need to know names, but I would dearly
like to hear how GOD is using your understandings. I sure I could
learn from you.
Shalom, bammamma
Nancy in WI, "Hate life itself?" That jostles something in my memory.
When I was an art student I came across the notion of "Art for Art's
sake." Phooey! Art is communication. Art calls for a response from its
veiwer/listener, an emotional or intellectual reaction. If Art is not
for humankind there is no reason for exhibiting it. Maybe we love life
for life's sake. We don't really have a purpose for life, we just fear
loosing it. But those who loose their lives in something greater, find
purpose and actually gain their lives as something useful. Jesus
says,"Give me your life and I will give it meaning." When we give up
living for ourselves, Christ takes those lives, now his, and says,
"Give them to my little ones." So then we give them away and find them
again, part of something great, the Kingdom of God. Life itself is
nothing, life for God, in Christ, serving the world is a sacrifice of
praise, pleasing to God, world and self. tom in TN(USA)
Too shy to sign,
I had an MBA before my MDiv so I can relate with both your post and
the one from Pr.del in Ia. We are all trying to use a metaphore to
describe the undescribable. Unfortunately, many of our parishioners
are still trying to use a business model to understand the things of
God. And that's how Pastor often seen as "employee" since they draw
their pay check from the church, the employer/customer. That's OK, we
have to start somewhere. We often start with what we know before we
get to what we don't know.
Now, if a person decided to start to become a disciple of Jesus, and
if He started with what they should know, the cost of following Him;
then that will enable them to go beyond what they know initially to
something truly remarkable, that's why we don't see people regret that
they have offer up their lives to Jesus very often.
Base on this passage, I also think that it is better for people to
decided not to become Jesus disciples, rather just sitting on the
fence.
Thanks for the metaphore...
C
Coho got me to thinking ... really, what DOES it ccost to be a church
member? Nothing, really ... at least not for most of us. Evangelizing
is something we do by "being good examples" (actual words from an
actual Christian about how we do evangelism), mission work is done
during "left-over" time. Tithing and giving are voluntary. Heck, so is
attending worship - and we won't even TALK about Sunday school!
What DOES being a member of a church - a Christian - a disciple -
cost. Just what is that cross that hates life (or appears to) and
willingly goes into the great unknown simply for love of God.
It's easy to join a church when you're feeling good and happy and even
euphoric. Not so easy to be a part of a church when that cross is
feeling heavy. Often when people start having other things to do or
get mad and find another church.
Sally in GA
Thank you all for your prayers!!
Our family has made reservations at a hotel farther inland, and for
the dog at the vet (also farther inland). The buildings and grounds
committee will put up shutters on the church and the homes of older
parishioners when/if there is a warning 24 hours out. We're as
prepared as we can be, which still somehow resonates with the Gospel,
though I haven't quite connected all the dots...
Too shy to sign -- it occurs to me Jesus himself uses plenty of
business metaphors/parables (the landlord and the steward, etc.) In
fact Jesus spoke more about our handling of our treasure than anything
else. I really like your image of the "churched" as employees with the
"customers" being people in the wider world whom we are ALL called to
minister to and serve by virtue of our baptism. Thanks! --revwaf
revwaf - add me to your "praying for you" list! God bless you.
Next ... I had another thought. What if that cross we are to carry is
not just an individual cross to be carried individually, as in our
personal callings, but a very large all-encompassing cross (for, isn't
that what the church is, Christ's body)? Hmmm...
Either way, how do we know we're carrying enough weight? There are
disciples aplenty who feel they ARE carrying crosses but who, by all
outward appearances, have it pretty good! Nice house, enough to eat,
good clothes, luxury car ... While I know first-hand that the
behind-closed-doors reality may be horrifying, I also know that some
folks identify fairly light burdens as "crosses." I know I'm stepping
into the muddy waters of identifying what a light or heavy burden is -
because, how does anyone know.
Yet, that's my point, exactly. How do we know when we're bearing
enough weight? God cannot possibly create us all different and then
expect the exact same thing out of us!!! And still, I know that I
often think something is unbearable - and it ends up getting even
worse (childbirth comes to mind; I thought I was well on my way to
delivering because of the pain - only to have 6 or 7 hours left to
go).
A title comes to mind: "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet" - we think we know
what we're getting into. We say, "Sure, Lord, I know there'll be hard
times," but boy do we get pissed off when they turn out to be harder
than we reckoned!
Sally in GA
So, how do we preach this passage without compromising it's power and
without causing all of us, including the Pastors to feel hopeless,
that the call is too strict, too much to ask.
Afterall, I cannot get people to teach Sunday school and say, I just
want to go to church and do nothing.
Susan in Wa.
Could someone elaborate more on something that was written here
earlier? I believe it was to do with the translation of the word that
is "hate" in most of the gospel translations. Someone said the Hebrew
word means "love less." Is this watering down the intensity of this
text? What is the greek word (too lazy to look it up myself)?
Once again, the dialogue here is very enlightening not only on the
text but what is going on in many of your lives and ministries. Loved
the discussion on the business model vs. kingdom/church/etc. Been
there done most of that and am NOT an employee as long as I sense a
calling. I did something outragouse today, picked sermon themes for
the next 5 weeks! Yikes. Only possible to do for me because of this
site, thanks to many of you early posters (but did notice a "desert"
for September 29th!).
This week for better or worse I will most likely go with "Learning to
Hate - Jesus' Way" thanks to what I think I read that when Christ
calls us to follow (leave behind) it is to something greater.
Scary thought to make such a commitment so early. Get my drift?
OMG
Susan in Wa and others,
Maybe the problem we all face as Christians, not just as pastors,is
that salvation is received with an "I got mine" attitude. Like the
bibliophile who can't read, ownership is everything because we can't
figure out what to do with it. There is a disconnect between our
personal salvation and the Great Commission. Genesis 12 says that God
blessed Abram and as a result, he would be a blessing to others. Our
salvation wasn't given to us so that we might set it on a shelf and be
proud of it but instead that we might become disciples so that others
might hear and be saved so that they might become disciples and on and
on and on.
Sally, what does being a disciple cost? Possibly all that you have and
all that you are. Just ask the original eleven. A better question is
what is it worth to you to hear "well done, my good and faithful
servant?" If you are willing to accept the free gift of salvation, the
idea that God will settle accounts with His servants must be accepted
as well. The gift comes with no price but great responsibility.
Mike in Soddy Daisy
The cost to be a disciple would be carrying the cross of Jesus and
following Jesus.
We may think that the cross could be our price that I have to pay to
be a disciple. However, I think that Jesus already paid his life for
the cross that I am carrying, and as my price. I just need to carry as
Jesus told me.
My calling and carrying the cross (becoming a disciple, pastor or
Christan)is not heavy burden on our shoulder but blessings and honors.
Of course, I agree with some people who may mention that Jesus'
ministry is hard job. I know that and I already experienced. I also
grew up in the church where my father was a pastor.
The cross is good news. Jesus' yoke is lighter and following Jesus and
carrying Jesus is our great honor.
I wrote a play for Palm Sunday this year with a donkey's story. I
described myself as a donkey who carried Jesus on my back. My pastoral
robe may represent the cloaks the disciples covered on the donkey's
back for Jesus. (I could be not fully qualified as a pastor in
someone's eyes like a donkey.)
I was tied up on the street as a no useful thing but Jesus already
knew about me and sent even his two disciples not one ahead, and
untied my bondages from many things. Jesus also allowed me to carry
Him on my back to Jerusalem. That is my great honor. I also walked on
the street that covered with many clothes materials donated by the
multitude who praised Jesus whom was on my back.
Now I need to carry Jesus' cross. That is my honor. Jesus' cross shows
what Jesus has done for me and for the children of God and what I
have, for my family, for my children. I want to show how faithfully I
try to carry His cross in daily and weekly to my children as my father
showed me. I want to follow how my father carried His cross through
out his life faithfully. My father was a great, best father in my
life. He is my greatest blessing in my life. He showed me through his
life who God is for me and who Jesus is for me. I learned God through
his life.
Since Jesus already carried all those painful suffering persecution on
his sholders and so many faithful disciples carried that before me, my
job will be easier and often (not always) joyful when I trust and
believe the Holy Spirit's help.
My family thought that I lost so many things to follow Jesus' call, my
former careers and decent jobs and good income but right now we all
think that I am trully blessed. My children and my husband respect
what I am doing right now, thank God. Thank you God. Now I try to
follow how my father carried his cross and Jesus' cross on his
sholdiers very faithfully. I am sorry, English is my second language
so, many mistakes I made in my writing. ID
To Sally in Ga.
Amen to your statement that it is easier to join a church when it is
easy, and more difficult to stay around when the cross is getting
heavy. It is so much easier to go into the large churches where people
can slip in and just "Do church" and then slip out, rather than the
small church where something will be asked of them to be a part of the
ministry. But still, I want to talk about this passage as not
comprimising the punch of it, but also not using it as a club for the
people.
Susan in Wa.
It just hit me. Whrn you talk abut building a tower or going to war
and not counting the cost, the big cost is if you are building a tower
or going to war against GOD. Have you counted the cost of going aginst
GOD? Is that the question we should ask Sunday?
JWS
To OMG: When I look up "hate" (miseo) in the Greek NT or Greek/English
lexicon (Arndt and Gingrich), it is hate, detest, abhor. And according
to the lexicon is the opposite of agape in other greek literature.
However, all of my lectionary resources (new Interpreter's Bible,
Craddock et. al., and Gaventa et. al.) maintain that Jesus is using a
"Semitic hyperbole that exaggerates a contrast." The OT passages cited
in the New Interpreter's Bible are include Ex 32:27-29; Dt 33:9. They
conclude that it is not about emotion but priority.
Using the Luke passages in preaching through the month of August, I
feel like I've covered the territory about God's priority in life, our
"all too human" attachment to possessions and neglect of the
outsider---now this. What does discipleship look like? What would a
church full of disciples look like? Seems like it's somehow related to
the current political situation and boy, do I not want to go there!
"Down" in NC
As we move into the midst of our second political convention this
summer, we have heard or will hear our fair share of "spins" on the
comments of the Presidential Candidates or his advisors. In the
newspaper Tues. morning, there are those who are trying to put a
correct "spin" on Pres. Bush's comment, "It is impossible to win the
war on terrorism," claiming that he really didn't mean we couldn't win
the war, just that there would be no surrender.
As we confront this lection, we have a choice of our own. Do we employ
the "spin doctor" technique and try to make Jesus' words more
palatable, or do we confront the hard realities of his vocabulary and
present the gospel in full force? It may be easier to spin it, but
perhaps life-changing if we let Jesus' words speak for themselves and
find a way to encourage our hearers to love their relationship with
Christ more than anything else. By doing so, all those other
relationships will be far more rewarding.
Tom in TN
too shy to sign~
1st of all: don't be shy, that was a great post.
i may have shared this before, but i'll so it again. another pastor
once talked about going over a bridge betwen philadelphia and new
jersey. in the water there were 2 ships: a battleship and a cruise
ship. looking at the 2 he realized that the church had become the
cruise ship: the pastor becomes the cruise director who fills the
needs of the passengers, but the church should be the battleship,
where everyone has a duty (vocation) in order for the ship to run.
God's peace, christine at the shore
You can't win a war on terror - I've been trying to say this all
along. "Terror" is a concept. While it's true that the "concept" has
real and tragic ramifications, it is nonetheless a method that
expresses an ideology. You can't declare war on a concept or ideology.
All you can do is hope to subdue its symptoms - and even that is
debatable (as we have seen). Declaring war on some country is another
thing: they did something we don't like so we blame the government who
did this thing, rather than trying to attack their methods as if that
will make them change their minds!!
Did anybody really think that our fighting the war on terror was going
to win us friends and influence people? Did anybody really think that
we'd shock and awe the living daylights out of them and they'd say,
"Oh, gee, I see your point. I guess you're right. So sorry."
Sheesh.
Sally
I have already used this sermon in this church, so I cant really use
it again. If anyone wants to use all or parts of it - feel free to.
Rev Nigel
“Prisoner Bonhoeffer, make ready and come with me”. It was April 9th,
1945, the place - Flossenburg Prison. This command, uttered by the
Nazi Guard would be the last words Dietrich Bonhoeffer would ever hear
as the controversial theologian was led by his captors to his place of
execution. Bonhoeffer would be put to death under a direct order from
Hitler himself. Ironically, the allies would liberate the prison camp
only a few days later. Bonhoeffer had gone to his death calmly, and
with the dignity and peace of a man who knew and loved The Lord Jesus
Christ. Later, the prison doctor was recorded as saying: "Through the
half-open door I saw Pastor Bonhoeffer still in his prison clothes,
kneeling in fervent prayer to the Lord his God. The devotion and
evident conviction of being heard that I saw in the prayer of this
intensely captivating man moved me to the depths." In today’s Gospel
reading from Mark, Jesus predicts HIS own death for the second of
three times. This would represent one of the occasions when Jesus had
limited his public ministry that he might spend more intimate and
meaningful time with the disciples. This he did in order to better
prepare them for what was to come. Jesus knew that it would not be
long before he must return to heaven leaving behind these loyal
followers that they might continue his work in the world. Being a true
disciple for Christ is never easy. Often it carries heavy burdens.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, knew of these burdens only too well. An undaunted
modern-day disciple of Christ, he is now considered to be one of the
great Christian martyrs of the 20th Century. Bonhoeffer had been a
teacher and pastor and was widely recognized for his great theological
insight in Germany, England as well as in the United States. Author of
several books, some of which were written while he was in prison,
Bonhoeffer wrote one such work titled, “The Cost of Discipleship”.
This was no ordinary book. Bonhoeffer lived out this ideal to his
untimely death at age 39 at the hands of the oppressive Nazi regime.
While in prison he continued his pastoral role, sharing with those
around him his guidance and spiritual inspiration, this, not only with
fellow inmates but, curiously, with the prison guards as well.
For Bonhoeffer, the Cost of Discipleship was all too apparent as on
that spring day he was taken from his cell, made to strip, then
ushered naked under the scaffold where he knelt for one last time to
pray. A few precious minutes later, he would be dead.
“If any one would be first, he must be last of all and servant of
all”. What was Jesus trying to explain to disciples through this
analogy? The disciples were caught up in their own pursuits of
personal success and were not grasping the importance of a servant
ministry. They certainly were not focusing on what costs lay before
them. Nor did they understand at that time, the very nature, and
requirements of such a ministry that carried with it this incredibly
high, cost of discipleship
Ultimately the Apostles, as well as many of the early Christians of
the first and second Centuries would suffer greatly while enduring
terrible harassment and torture. We now know that many of them were
martyred in incredibly cruel ways at the hands of their Pagan
persecutors.
Of course eventually this would change. The Right Reverend Richard
Harries, Bishop of Oxford, recently stated when asked to speak on "The
future of Christianity", that: “If we take this question to mean "What
is going to happen to Christianity in the future?" the answer is that
we simply don't know. No-one could have predicted that a tiny Jewish
sect would, within 300 years or so, have won over the leadership of
the [entire] Roman Empire.”
Nearly two thousand years later, Dietrich Bonhoeffer understood all
too clearly what price would need to be paid in order for him to take
up the Cross of Christ. Bonhoeffer knew what servanthood really meant.
He also understood and experienced much regarding God’s Divine grace
and spoke of it and its implications unique ways warning that, “Cheap
grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves... the preaching of
forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church
discipline, communion without confession. He sums it up with the
statement that, Cheap grace is grace without discipleship”.
What does, what will, this mean to us? We know, through Bonhoeffer’s
books and his teachings what it meant to him.
Much of the man’s work was translated into English by the renowned New
Testament Scholar, The Reverend Dr. Reginald Fuller, who still serves
today as an Anglican priest even though he in his late 80’s. I think
he got it right when in analyzing today’s text he invites all of us to
reflect on the servanthood of the Church and its ministry based on the
servant suffering of her Lord. He sees today’s text as an exhortation
to live out the cross in the Christian life, a calling, a challenge,
to live out that very same servanthood with true humility. Something
Bonhoeffer did in and through his life.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer had at one point safely escaped the war in Europe,
leaving its multitude of atrocities far behind him and gone off to
teach in New York City during the Summer of 1939. History informs us
that he returned less than a month later saying:
"I have had time to think and to pray about my situation, and that of
my nation, and to have God's will for me clarified. I have come to the
conclusion that I have made a mistake in coming to America. I shall
have no right to participate in the reconstruction of the Christian
life in Germany after the war if I did not share in the trials of this
time with my people. Christians in Germany face the terrible
alternative of willing the defeat of their nation in order that
civilization may survive, or willing the victory of their nation and
thereby destroying civilization. I know which of these alternatives I
must choose. But I cannot make that choice [here] in security."
With that in mind, he returned to Germany only to be immediately
captured by the Nazis. Before he was hanged for his controversial role
in the plot to assassinate Hitler, he had written from prison, “When
Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die”.
Kneeling naked on the scaffold, the harsh rope tightly secured around
his neck, Bonhoeffer had been stripped of more than just his clothes.
The guards had taken his wristwatch, his eye-glasses, and would
ultimately take his life – But, what they had not taken, what they
could NOT take was his faith, and his love of The Savior, Jesus
Christ.
So what is the cost discipleship to us? What price must WE pay to take
up the cross of Christ? That is for each of us as individuals to
determine.
Chances are good that the price wont be as high as the one paid by
Dietrich Bonhoeffer on the gallows that day in early April over fifty
years ago.
Chances are that it will not be a price as high as the one Jesus
foretells of for Himself in today’s Gospel. A price that would include
a cruel and humiliating death on the cross, and remember, this was not
for his transgressions or sins, but for yours and mine. But, what each
of us we has, what Christ gave us, is hope, hope and eternal life in
the resurrection.
Just as Mark’s portrayal of Christ as the Suffering Servant ultimately
rises in Glory as the One and Only True Messiah – so will we come to
taste that Heavenly Banquet our Lord and Savior has prepared for us, a
foretaste of which you will soon receive in the Most Holy Sacrament of
the Body And Blood of Christ Himself.
We must therefore consciously decide whether to accept, or not to
accept Christ into our lives and our hearts, and to agree to become
disciples at whatever the cost! The world is full of those who have...
and sadly, those who have not.
Bonhoeffer leaves us with this thought - Stated in direct
contradiction to the aforementioned, “Cheap Grace”, he said, “Costly
grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift
which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock... It is
costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it
gives a man the only true life”.
And what is this only true life? – It is a life lived through the
cross in Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World.
I live with a "terminal" illness--cystic Fibrosis. My parents were
told I would never live to be 5 I am now three decades beyond
that...anyways I face a challenge becasue I can not do physically what
I use to do..the hard part is adjusting to the "new normal" teh hard
part is that I will often deny that I can no longer do a task and end
up in more trouble because of that denial ....I have had to stop and
seriously evaluate what is possible. It is harder sometimes mentally
than physically to live with a degenerative illness however I have
come to count a blessing in the fact taht God is with me in my mental
discourses of adjustment. What has struck me in the last few weeks of
preaching is that I have been unwilling to do the same dialogue about
church and ministry as we adjust to changes in the congregation and
world. My friend Jerome Taylor who preaches on Long Island once told
me I have to seriously ask myself and my church: are you really
dealing with a cross you have to bear or a crop you have to reap? we
often in our sinfullness confuse the two. just some ramblings I am at
a lost of what to preach this week blessings Pastor Keg
To WC in AR: Someone anonymous posted the reflections of Frederick
Niedner, as I have them in "Sundays and Seasons" - not Fred himself.
To Coho: Thank you so much for the sign analogy. I think I'll use that
somehow.
How frighteningly appropriate that the text for the Sunday before 9/11
uses "tower" and "war" as its two major images.
My thoughts are turning to verse 32, because I certainly see myself in
that position. I know I'm like the one who doesn't have what it takes
to conquer on his own, and sends a message to the king while he is far
away, asking for peace in advance. I think that cuts through the
possible works-righteous aspect of the text.
None of us have what it takes to be the perfect disciple. There IS no
perfect disciple (c.f. Peter, Judas, etc.) All we can do is sue for
peace with the One who is coming, knowing that we can't conquer with
what we have on hand.
But maybe that undercuts the cost of discipleship too much... Still
looking for the balancing act here.
I will also have to deal with my own annoyance at those who abandoned
the church during the summer and will finally come back, very pleased
with themselves for gracing the church with their presence again. I
would love to let 'er rip with the force of the law in this passage.
Sigh. I resist this temptation every Christmas Eve, so I guess I can
do so again now.
Thank you all very much for your posts.
LF
Another way to squirm out of the “hate” comment; Back away from it in
the following manner:
It occurs to me I love my family so much, I might be leaving second
place to God. This gospel helps to reorient thinking like this. If you
love God above all else, then other loves fall into place without
being diminished! For example, in my love, I dread the possible loss
of one of my children or grandchildren. They are so precious to me
(translation: I need them so badly), I shudder to think of the death
of one. Can I loosen my grip on them in order to follow Jesus, in
freedom, into the Kingdom, and to love them in the Lord’s way? Do I
wish they would take up the cross and follow Him, though they might
pay a price? When God rules, our perspective changes on everything!
GEC in Mich
At the risk of irritating some people, I offer the following: Some
people are asking today, "Did George W. count the cost before going
into Iraq?" Other people are asking, "Did Saddam count the cost in
defying the U.N. and the U.S.?" PH in OH
There are two ways for us to understand this scripture. First of all,
literally. In Jesus' day and time, people literally had to leave
family behind in order to follow Jesus. People did actually have to
put their lives on the line. The twelve all were killed. Some people
did have to carry a cross, Peter and Simon of Cyrene. People did
actually have to leave all of their possessions behind, as it was a
long trip to Jerusalem and who would be able to carry all their stuff
if they were to literally follow Jesus. Our job as pastors is to now
translate this from literal at Jesus' time to what we are called to do
as disciples today in 2004. We follow Jesus today as one who reigns
from on high and not literally. PH in OH
Sally in Ga: No NO NO!!! Membership does or at least should cost. As
part of the body of Christ, I must be in fellowship with other
Christians. Worship is not an option, it is a must! Tithing is the
beginning of my giving. It is not an option either. I must evaneglize.
Jesus said that whoever is ashamed of him, he will be ashamed of them.
Now, I would agree that a lot of people believe church attendance,
tithing, evangelizing, etc. are options, but are they? I just read a
newsletter article of a buddy of mine and in there it said, "What
would I have to do to cease to be a member if I already don't give,
don't participate, don't honor God with worship?" The answer is
nothing! If I don't worship, fellowship, give, etc. then I am not a
member, only a name on a piece of paper. PH in OH
I like KHC;s idea of the bridge to God and the building cost has
already been paid. This is communion sunday here so that will work. We
have to keep up the maintenance on the bridge. Keeping it in good
shape can cost alot but the original price wasn;t cheap. Grace and
discipleship can;t be cheap.
Danke Dude
Pastor Keg, Thank you for your sharing. You definitely promoted my
thinking on this text and as a whole.
As for everyone/anyone else who might have read an earlier post of
mine I have chickened out on a sermon title “How to Hate – Jesus’ Way”
and instead decided upon “Loving Commitment” obviously wanting to make
a “play” on word meaning here. This is what I figure and again thanks
to Pastor Keg whose post got me to thinking about “cross to bear or
crop to reap?” For the most part I really don’t have a cross to bear
in this life and I don’t think I should go out and necessarily look
for one. Mostly I have opportunity to “reap a crop” and most who will
come to hear a sermon don’t need me to lay a “cross to bear” on them
but instead I believe need to understand that the “crop they have to
reap” could be turned into a “cross to bear” if they are not careful.
And they especially have the opportunity all the time to help others
reap the crop they have to reap!
A further thought based on Pastor Keg’s statement that “God is with me
in my mental discourses” (and with everyone else)… M. Scott Peck has
as one of his books “A Gathering of Stones” and one of his themes that
is threaded through it is that each and everyone of us has things
stripped away from us in life. If we grow older, our youth is stripped
away, our strength, our possessions, maybe even our memory. Eventually
we will get down to nothing other than being fully “naked” before God.
Of course with the proper “outlook” in life, we might be able to have
this “naked” relationship with God before everything is stripped away
and if we do, then it really is a crop to reap for most of us isn’t
it? I agree with PH in OH, we don’t always have to bring forward to
2004 precisely what it meant 2000 years ago. Hope these thoughts help
someone else too.
OMG
Just wondering-
were families somehow less dysfunctional (old joke- why do they call
it a nuclear family- because its always about to explode) in Jesus'
day than now.
Even the best human family has its problems. God is the only one who
is truly dependable
grace and peace;
revgilmer in texarkana
Rev Nigel, thanks for the reminder of Bonhoeffer and "The Cost of
Discipleship." PH in OH, thanks for the thoughts regarding the worth
of a "cost-free" faith. LF, you are correct that there are no perfect
disciples but how can the imperfect "move on to perfection" if no one
holds them accountable? Over and over I have heard people ask in this
discussion, "How can I give these hard words to my people?" I am
becoming more and more convicted with the question, "How can I not
give these words to my people?" What is there in them that should
scare me? What cost am I afraid of if I avoid the truth or put a happy
spin on serious words? I'm not trying to come down hard on my brothers
and sisters in ministry but pondering my own lack of discipleship and
inviting others to join me. Mike in Soddy Daisy
Mike: the idea of the imperfect "moving on to perfection" is a
puzzling theology for me. I understand perfection to be an attribute
of Jesus Christ, not his followers. But you are absolutely right in
holding Jesus's followers accountable for their lack of commitment. We
all need that hard word to shake us out of our complacency.
So far, my sermon idea has been to create a dialogue between "Jesus"
and "The Pastor." Jesus speaks these hard words, while The Pastor
tries to persuade him not to... after all, they're difficult,
de-motivational, not attractive to newcomers, guilt-inducing, and
could cause family difficulties.
Since this is all Law, pointing out our inadequacies as followers,
Grace is found in the idea of asking the coming king for peace.
Still working on this...
LF
LF,
"Moving on to perfection" in the Methodist or Wesleyan tradition
starts with the realization that we are imperfect creatures given a
perfect example in Jesus Christ. Left to our own strength, we have a
tendency to fail in any attempt to improve ourselves but we are not
left to our strength. Through grace we are saved from slavery to sin
so we don't "have to" give in but because sin still knows how to push
the right buttons, we still fall to temptation - under our own
strength. But we are given more than our own strength when we lean on
Christ in time of temptation. By leaning on Him, we find strength to
resist and, over time, we find that some temptations don't seem to
pull so strongly and then others also seem to weaken. Our imperfect
becomes less imperfect but not by our own strength and so not to our
credit that we should boast. However, if we are allowed to just say
that we are imperfect and given to failing under temptation, where is
the incentive to fight back, to lean on the strength of Christ? If no
one holds us accountable, why should we care? Mike in Soddy Daisy
To OMG and those who wants the meaning of "hate",
Here is the entry from "Theological dictionary of the New Testament" (Kittel)
after a full blown analysis of how the word was used in the LXX,
Philo, and NT...
[QUOTE] Hatred in Discipleship of Jesus. The requirement for
discipleship in Lk. 14:26 (Mt. 10:37); Jn. 12:25 is striking: "Hatred
of all we are under obligation to love, including our own souls, is
the condition of fellowship with Jesus, of working together with
Him."? The reference is not to hate in the psychological sense, but to
disowning, renunciation, rejection (êá? ô?í øõ÷?í ?óõôï?), as in
theWisdom literature of the OT.?27? Those who become disciples of
Jesus must be committed exclusively to Him; they cannot be bound to
anyone or anything else. The term "hate" demands the separation of the
disciple, and the warning not to love anyone or anything more is the
test. This abnegation is to be taken, not psychologically or
fanatically, but pneumatically and christocentrically. [/QUOTE]
To Susan in WA,
You asked, "So, how do we preach this passage without compromising
it's power and without causing all of us, including the Pastors to
feel hopeless, that the call is too strict, too much to ask. Afterall,
I cannot get people to teach Sunday school and say, I just want to go
to church and do nothing."
I think it's all depends on Spiritual Maturity.
In the preceding passage of Luke 14:16-24 (which was skipped by the
Lectionary), Jesus talked about ALL was invited to the banquet. There,
the invitation is FREE. You CAN just "go to church and do nothing."
And that's OK for a child of God. (All parents know this, that your
infant baby doesn't need to do anything and can still be acceptable as
your child.)
HOWEVER, for a 15 years old kid who live in the house and behave just
like an infant (never pick up after themselves, not caring for others
in the family, not making the house guests feeling welcome, not
willing to make some minor sacrifice for the sake of the family, etc.)
that's not acceptable; SOMETHING IS WRONG THERE!
So when Luke having Jesus outlined the cost of discipleship, he is
making a separation line between a child and a mature person in the
family of God.
Our goal is to see people not only be born-again, but to grow into
full maturity in Christ. And the way Jesus did it was to feed His
disciples appropriate levels of revelation/challenge for them to grow.
The reverse problem that some of us have in our church with
discipleship is this: we see disciple as a PROGRAM to get church
volunteer workers. And therefore we drafted people into ministry
without checking for a proper maturity needed in their spiritual
formation path. And then we burned them out. (I learned this the hard
way and "killed off" a few people in my own ministry.)
And so, if my congregation is not ready yet, I would tone this text
down a bit as a "definition of a disciple", and here I can clearly
contrasted the level of commitment needed to be a "disciple", and not
just a "banquet attendee". It is OK, to have people wondered if being
a believer the same as being a disciple or not. They are free to
decide for themselve just like the hearers of Jesus, but at least
they've got to know the cost.
Especially in this passage: IF THEY ARE NOT BEING A DISCIPLE, IT
DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE LOSING THEIR SALVATION.
The interesting thing is Rick Warren view things that way in his much
controversial "Purpose-Driven-Church" philosophy. In his church, there
are "attendees" (people who show up on Sunday and events), but there
are also "members" (people who went through membership classes, bough
in to the purpose of the church, and willing to tithe in support of
that purpose).
And I am NOT Rick Warren's fan, just thought that was interesting...
Coho, Midway City.
There is a good book out there it is called: I hate you get out of my
life but first can you drive me and Cheryl to the mall? it is about
raising teenage girls and isn't that hate/love thing a part of our
spiritual maturity..we "hate" God when we don't get our way or
understand his way?
OMG--thanks for the book suggestion you pegged in a few words what I
was trying to grasp in terms of being 'stripped" Peace and blessings
Pastor Keg
lf~
don't be too discouraged. i have many faithful non-memebers who arrive
at my church each summer to worship with us while they vacation at the
shore. i am always amazed at these faithful who become readers,
ushers, altar guild, and even make pledges while they are away from
their home congregations.
this discussion makes me think of something i often say in funeral
sermons of members. i talk about their discipleship. so-and-so was a
disciple of christ, i will say. and then i will go on to talk about
those things that they did in service to God.
the best example of this is pauline. pauline died suddenly after a
long illness. when i went to meet with the family i asked if they had
any ideas as to what readings they might want at the service. her
daughter went to get her mother's bible to seeif she had any passages
marked. when she returned she placed a stack of filled offering
envelops in front of me. pauline filled one every week even though she
could not make it to church. it was a part of her routine. tears came
to my eyes as i took them and put them in my bag.
that sunday when i announced her death i showed the congregation the
rubber-banded envelopes. This was pauline, i told them, this was her
faithfulness.
she was a disciple.
God's peace, christine
To christine: Yes, I served a congregation "at the shore" - a
different shore - and so I know that many faithful people serve at
their vacation congregations. We even had our annual meeting in July,
at peak attendance! Sadly, that sort of piety does not seem to be at
work in my current congregation.
Mike: thank you for clarifying the language around
imperfect/perfection. I completely agree that we can and should become
less imperfect: that is our call. But in Methodist/Wesleyan theology,
is it possible for humans to become perfect? or just less imperfect?
"You can't make a racehorse out of a pig." "No, but you can make a
very fast pig." That's my humourous take on my theology of
sanctification. There's no reason we can't be very fast pigs - so
let's get the lard out! And we should be held accountable for just
wallowing and lazing! So, no, I do not neglect the Law.
LF
lf~ oink.
others~ not all can be disciples. there are just some who are able to
dedicate themselves all the way, some who can dedicate some of
themselves, some who just want to be entertained, and some who have no
desire what-so-ever.
i worry about the cost some people are paying, those that are
overworked at the church just as much as i worry about those who show
no interest, not to mention all the rest along the spectrum. how does
this gospel speak to them all and how do i say it?
well, that's about where i am right now.
God's peace, christine
PH in OH -
Uh, that was exactly my point. It's time for the mainline church to
expect something from its members. Too often in mainline churches, we
welcome people under the guise of discipleship when in reality we've
included them into our country club. Often a very exclusive one at
that.
Of course TRULY being a disciple involves cost. However, in very real
churches across the world, discipleship is what you do when you've got
the time, don't have out of town guests, can afford it, don't have a
squirming baby, and Jupiter aligns with Mars. I even had a woman not
attend worship once because the power was out and, as she said, "I
couldn't put on my makeup." I told her, "My power and the church's
power was out, too, and not many of us were wearing makeup." A better
response would have been "God loves us, not our makeup."
No, just to clear up any confusion - that above post to which you're
referring did not mean that I actually believe that there is no cost
or obligation to discipleship; just that we in the mainline church are
not expecting or even communicating that cost. And that we OUGHT to.
Sally
revgilmer:
as to your question about whether families were more or less
dysfunctional ... that is a good, good question!!! I can't answer it
with much authority, but I can respond this way:
A seminary professor of mine referred to the "fractured oikos." I
cannot recall what "oikos" means and I don't have my greek dictionary
at hand. Anyways, it refers to the progressively "outsourced" society
from the agrarian society of OT times. In OT times, your homestead was
a place of not just monetary value, but sacred worth - God gave you
the land. You housed your entire extended family on that land. You
raised and educated your children on that land. You worked on that
land. You worshiped on that land.
By and by, all these things were what we nowadays refer to as
"outsourced." We go someplace else to worship - which occurred during
the OT times. OUr family homestead becomes smaller and our extended
family starts moving away. We start sending our kids to a school off
the homestead. Eventually, we go someplace else to work (the best
example of this in the US is the age of industrialization). By now,
extended family may be all over the world at once. Now, between the
hours of 9-5 (or so), the only semblance of a human being that's home
is the answering machine. We've even outsourced our presence.
As to how this may apply to dysfunctionality: in the extended family
situation, my thought is that with the more people around the less
impact our crazy aunts and uncles have on us individually. Therefore,
I contend that it's likely people really WERE healthier. The
dysfunction was in the society at large, with its castes and
Pharisaical rules.
Now, if children are raised by a crazy mom and dad, there is no
extended family to offer any recourse. And craziness begets craziness.
Today's families are, despite all the "go go go" of working parents or
soccer moms, quite isolated. That's dysfunctional.
Just one thoughtful person's ... uh ... thoughts. :-)
Sally in GA
Coho - I don't know if I'm a Warren fan, either, but I've devoured his
"Purpose-Driven" books (except for youth ministry, which as far as I
could tell was the same as "church").
Anyways, despite his theology which I have points of serious
disagreement with, and despite his way of "talking down" to his
readers, I like much of what he says.
It's time for the mainline church to regain a sense of "Purpose." We
go through our churchy motions thinking we have "purpose," but in
reality we're only entertaining ourselves until the final banquet.
Sorry for so many posts... here I go again ... and I expect it'll be
that way all week. I had a Mohs procedure on my nose yesterday and I
look and feel like I've been in a bar fight and so am hanging around
the house.
Sally in GA
