Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 13:1-9
13:1 At that very time there were some present who told him about the Galileans whose
blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
13:2 He asked them, "Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this
way they were worse sinners than all other Galileans?
13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as they did.
13:4 Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them--do you
think that they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem?
13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did."
13:6 Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and
he came looking for fruit on it and found none.
13:7 So he said to the gardener, 'See here! For three years I have come looking for
fruit on this fig tree, and still I find none. Cut it down! Why should it be wasting the
soil?'
13:8 He replied, 'Sir, let it alone for one more year, until I dig around it and put
manure on it.
13:9 If it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it
down.'"
Comments:
Jesus addresses the age-old question of whether people deserve the seemingly random calamities that happen to them. The short answer is no, but the key to our peace is using the present moment to throw ourselves upon God's grace.
"Look, Mom! No hands!" shrieks the little boy, gaining premature confidence on his bicycle. One no sooner hears these words than one anticipates the sound of a falling bicycle and the subsequent wailing.
"Falling" and "felling" seem to be standard fare for the day as we are reminded of the false confidence of our ancestors. Paul reminds the Corinthians that, despite their consumption of spiritual food and spiritual drink from the spiritual rock, God was not pleased with the Israelites, "and they were struck down in the wilderness." He becomes yet more explicit when he calls to mind that "twenty-three thousand fell in one day" as a result of their sexual exploits.
"Beware false confidence and putting Christ to the test" seems to be the caution of Paul. "If you think you are standing, watch out that you do not fall."
Jesus, however, seems to be addressing false confidence of another sort among his hearers. "Beware of interpreting the fall of others as the judgment of God on them," he seems to say. When the tower of Siloam fell and eighteen were killed, "do you think that they were worse offendeers than all the other living in Jerusalem?" he chides.
He points to the contrary. At the "near felling" of the unproductive fig tree, he recalls the intervention of the merciful gardener, who urges the tree owner to let it stand until he has nurtured it fully.
The prayer of the day reminds us of the one who has intervened on our behalf--who has "broken into our troubled world"--so that we might be bearers of fruit and avoid the fall of the falsely confident.
- May you grow like an onion with your head in the ground.
Some nuggets for your sermon.
- Many people use mighty thin thread when mending their ways
- Repent equals opportunity.
-Repentance is not a fruit problem; it is a root problem. It is the root of who we are that is a problem in God's eyes. Richard Jensen
- Baptism is no mere bath.
Taken from Sermon Fodder for Lent 3C Lindy
If I were preaching on this text, I will have to hook the portrayal of Pilate from "The Passion of The Christ" in. (Please don't start another flame war on the movie). Many people disagree with the toning down of Pilate, making him into a philosopher discussing "What is truth." Here, we have another portrayal of Pilate, a bloody record. Linking the two, we could be reminded ourselves that human nature is a mixture, no one is purely good or bad. And if Pilate had deep-seated question about truth, there are hopes for many people, including us as well.
But focus on Pilate would be missing the point of the text. The people who told Jesus about Pilate's massacre would probably want to hear Jesus's commentary on His political/social stance. But Jesus cleverly turn his response into spiritual implication instead. Not only that, but the thrust of his point was repeated twice "Unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did." Jesus turned the probe light away from Pilate, away from the victims, onto the people who asked the questions.
"Unless you repent, you will all perish!" As God in the flesh, on a mission; Jesus understood the grave implication of sin. The judgement of sin is far more severe than the violent whipping and the torturous cross He endured. Unfortunately, we don't often see His point, therefore Jesus endured the most excruciate death so that we human-being can relate somewhat of the serverity of the judgement. (Early church father Athanasius had argued that the main point of the incarnation Jesus have to die for mankind, even death because of old-age.)
"...you will perish *as they did*": Our human nature often measure ourselves according to the trend of social norm. Most of the time, religious church goers will often have a satisfaction of knowing that we are better, because we follow Christ, because we are not dying of AIDS, because our family have not been broken apart like our neighbors. Even so, according to Jesus, without repentance, we will perish "just as they did". Just because of we follow a relatively higher moral path, we may be more likely to reap the reward for living according to God's moral law. But judging our eternal reward based on the current temporal reward may blind us from the real issue of sin.
In the next part, Jesus pushed the envelope some more with the parable. The ealier part focused on the negative (bad things come to people who do bad stuff), but this part Jesus turn on the heat on the positive (bad thing will come to people if they don't produce good stuff). It's funny that in order to produce good stuff, we will have to put up with more "manure", not the kind of chemically-produced like what we have today, but the literal dirty stuff produced by humans and animals back then. Yuck.
Oh, how tough it is for me to follow this. I can handle the negative exposition from Jesus so far in dealing with myself. But to put up with more "manure" in order to bear fruits? No wonder my life has not been producing the fruits He wanted.
Coho, Midway City
Repent: "to change the way you look for happiness"
Parable: faith in God shows in our living
If we love Jesus, then we will love who Jesus loves and find happiness in service to others. If there isn't a worshipping heart within us, or a servant one, then the Holy Spirit has wasted its energy.
My husband told me a story during last year's track season in which a young man came to practice in sneakers, not track shoes. Another young man who wore the same size was approached by the coach to share his track shoes with the young man who wore sneakers and obviously couldn't afford anything else. His mother overheard the coach's request and had a fit! "My son will not share," she exclaimed...then gladly took her place in her pew at worship the following Sunday.
I love the television commercial where the guy with the American dream bemoans, "How do I do it? I'm in debt up to my eyeballs, or ears, or whatever." The average American lives 10% beyond his or her income and gives less than 2% to charity or the church.
We claim to be a servant church, but do we have a worshipping, servant heart? Do we have faith in Jesus' recipe for happiness? Just what do our actions reveal about who our god is?
Someone recently commented about all of the little blue plastic Walmart bags in our area's landfills. Many years from now someone will wonder about this "Walmart" everyone loved. Another friend told me that if we'd put a coffee bar in our lobby and let people take their latte's into worship we'd have better attendance. Either that, or move the worship service to the golf course. We could sing "Holy, Holy, Holy" and "There Is A Green Hill Far Away," bless the golf carts and the golfers, serve beer and subs for communion, and, well...not inconvenience anyone.
It seems we're trying to serve God and the world at the same time. I believe Jesus said that's not possible.
Last week we were challenged to look at the role fear plays in preventing us from keeping up the good work. It didn't cut Jesus' ministry short and it shouldn't threaten ours. Comfort pleases the self; service and purpose serve God and others. Where does most of our time, energy, money go...comfort or purpose?
Repent, anyone? revdlk in nebraska
Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I just want to thank Kathy in Fort Wayne for pointing out my error, last week. It was indeed a nightingale in Oscar Wildes story. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.
Have a fruitful week everyone. Hope it produces more delay before God puts the axe to the fig tree.
Regards,
KGB in Aussie
Opps, forgot to give credit for def. of repent: Daily Reading for Contemplative Reading by Father Thomas Keating. I know I also need to spend time thinking about the patience of the gardener in the parable before I write. revdlk
Musing - I remembered all the talk about "the real meaning of Christmas."
This year, I'm going with "the real meaning of Easter" as my theme for Lent, the idea being (of course) that unless we "observe a holy Lent," we cannot truly know fullness of joy in celebrating the resurrection.
One colleague here tells his folk not to bother showing up for Easter unless they participate in the Triduum. He has a point!
Thanks to everyone for the blessed inspiration each week.
Frandy
I'm looking at Luke 13:1-9 in a new light. It's an interpretation I haven't heard before, so I'm wondering what you all think...
I've always read this passage in a personal sense (we each are the tree, we each must repent.) Now, to me it makes more sense to read it in a corporate sense (Israel is the tree, Israel as a nation must repent or die.)
The message I now read is that Jesus (the Gardener) has made a bargain with God (The Land Owner.) Jesus is making an effort (through his ministry) to save the useless tree (of Israel.)
Israel must repent or be destroyed by the Romans.
Jesus is unsuccessful in his attempt to save Israel, and Israel is destroyed. (According to Josephus) thousands of Galileans are slaughtered by the Romans with swords (like the Galileans killed by Pilate, it's not just the evil who are killed.) Later more than a million are killed in Jerusalem, many of them dying in the rubble of collapsed buildings (like those in the tower, those killed are not just the worst offenders.)
Like the Galileans, killed by Pilate for resisting Roman rule. Israel was destroyed for their armed rebellion against the Romans. (They lived by the sword, so they died by the sword.)
In the end (despite the gardener's best efforts) the tree was "cut down and thrown onto the fire."
This all seems so very clear to me. It can't be a new reading, and yet I don't remember hearing it expressed. (What do you think?)
One Tom of many
Coho,
Humans and animals still produce that stuff now, and we still use--at least the animal-produced stuff. Believe me, I know. I live in Iowa, and often, we can smell it!
Laughing with pleasure!
Michelle
Dear One Tom of many: A provocative interpretation, but at the end of it, I have to say, "So? And?" In other words, what will the people to whom you're preaching get from that interpretation, interesting though it may be? Was Israel was a more sinful nation than others, and deserved to be crushed? Did God expect more of Israel, and since Israel didn't live up to those expectations, the nation was destroyed despite Jesus's best efforts to save it? Does that mean God ignores Jesus's work for mercy? If so, we're all doomed! Are you advocating that nations adopt theocracy in order to avoid such divine punishment?
I think you always have to think ahead to the existential effects of your sermon: What will it mean to the people sitting in your pews? Should they feel superior to Jews? (God forbid!) Should they adopt some attitude of works-righteousness, because if Jesus can't effectively do the work of mercy to save, we'd better get out there and save ourselves?
Fresh interpretations can lead you down interesting paths - but sometimes those paths don't go anywhere good.
LF
LF,
What is the good of reading the Bible if we choose to ignore what it tells us? (or if we pretend that it says something it does not, for the sake of an uplifting sermon?)
There's nothing that different about this reading from many of in the Old Testament. (For example) in Genesis 18, Abraham argues with "the Lord" on behalf of Sodom, eventually getting "the Lord" to agree that if there are even ten righteous men in the city, Sodom will be spared. (There aren't, and it isn't.)
The biggest difference here is that this time, it's Jesus, rather than a mere man who is bargaining with God for the lives of the righteous.
Luke, seems to me, to be reminding his readers that Jesus (like the prophets before him) had warned Israel (repeatedly) to repent or the entire nation would suffer.
How does this speak to us today? (If our government does not repent, our entire nation will suffer? If we live by the sword, we will die by the sword? [The righteous along with the evil?])
(Please, offer me a more likely interpretation of what Jesus is saying.)
One Tom
There are many outside the church who think that what we proclaim inside the church is a big, steaming load of BS, or what I prefer to call "holy manure." Are those people any worse than the people who sit in our pews -- no, but (as Jesus points out) unless we repent (move towards God) we will all perish just as they do. The test of our faithfulness (but not the pre-condition for our salvation) is, "are we bearing fruit?" If we are not bearing fruit, then we need to "work our roots with holy manure" so that the conditions are right for us to bear fruit that feeds others. Otherwise, what is the difference between those who profess to follow Jesus and those who do not, if we do not bear fruit?
As pastors, what "holy manure" do we need to work into the roots of our congregations? Where are they deficient in what they need in order to be faithful disciples of Jesus Christ? The answer is bound to be different for each congregation!
An OLD joke: did you know that ministers are just like manure? All piled up together in one place they really stink, but if you spread them over the land they can do a lot of good!
OLAS
One Tom of Many,
Your corporate interpretation does add an interesting twist, but if it were meant to be particularly corporate, I don't think Jesus would have spoken of one tree in an orchard, but of an entire orchard of trees.
If we carry your new simile to its end, it doesn't quite work, because Israel is as much of a nation now as it was during the time of Jesus (even apart from the imposed nation of Israel). The people were under Roman occupation then, and were not an independent nation. The only real difference I see is the missing temple.
However, more dangerous in your interpretation is the idea it plants that Jesus is the gardener who tries to save the nation of Israel, but fails. I do not believe Jesus would have failed if that had been his purpose. Rather, Jesus came not to save a political nation, but the entire creation. He came to be the light to the nations that Israel had ceased to be.
Israel was expecting a political Messiah. Instead, God sent one to love all nations, one who would be merciful even to those of us who are slow to grasp the reality of that love. For this I give thanks.
Michelle
Thanks Michelle,
However, consider Romans 11:17-32 in which Paul tells the Gentile converts that they are like a shoot which has been grafted onto the root of a broken tree (all singular.)
One Tom
Another possible message for today; war is perversely indiscriminate. The recent war in Iraq was promoted as a war against evil (personified by Saddam Hussein.) During the war, thousands of innocent civilians were killed, but Hussein was not.
Try to get a bit more animated in the pulpit this week and show me that this stuff is really exciting to you.
One of your parishioners who keeps falling asleep as you try to show me how smart you are...
I'm sorry, I don't mean to dominate the discussion. A week ago, my interpretation went like this:
13:1-2 Don't assume that because something bad has happened to someone that they did something to deserve it (see Job.) Sometimes, things just happen.
3 You must all repent
4 (See 1-2 above.)
5 You must all repent
6-9 Time is running out. You must all repent.
The problem I've always had with this interpretation is that it seems to contradict itself. i.e. "These are simply random events, but if you don't repent, a random event will happen to you too!" I've had to work hard to rationalize it. (i.e. if we repent, we will have eternal life in Heaven, if we don't we will die without hope of resurrection.)
Then, this weekend, I saw it. It all seemed so obvious!
Luke is generally assumed to have been written a few years after the fall of Jerusalem. This was an extremely traumatic event, and certainly Luke would have tried to explain why it had happened. (Just as American authors today are trying to explain why the events of 9/11/2001 happened.)
We wouldn't pussyfoot around Luke 21:5-6, pretending Jesus wasn't talking about the temple being destroyed. So, just because this week's prophesy is in parable form, should we ignore its obvious interpretation? (Within a few decades, many of Jesus' audience would die exactly as the others had!)
One Tom (who talks too much)
Repent means to turn around. Turn your life around.
The people of Israel had not changed anything about their lives after these traumatic events had happened. They had probably wept over their loss and, in some cases, over their part in bringing it all about. They no doubt swore things would change, that God would find them repentant, thought about how they would change, but the next week, when the smoke had cleared, it was back to the way things had been all along. With the fall of Jerusalem, with the Exile, and with 9-11 and with any national disaster of any kind, people go through this exact same process. We talk a lot about becoming better at paying attention to our faith, of changing, of making this event be a real catalyst in our lives. Too soon we forget and revert, rather than repent in the long term.
This is the history of God's people since Creation.
It continues to be God's intention that we will do better.
To "One of your parishioners..."
What do you mean by "try to show me how smart you are..." Are you speaking generally, or to a specific one among us? Constructive criticism works best if the intended recipient cannot shrug it off as intended for someone else.
Sleepy Parishoner,
Worship is a multi-faceted event. Not only should the Preacher and Music leaders be prepared to do their best work, the worshippers should come to worship ready to participate as well, which includes active listening. We would all hope the
Spirit of God would touch your ears, your heart and your brain to connect with whatever is being said.
If, perhaps, the worshippers concentrated on what is positive in the service, rather than on what they wish would be different, the experience would improve for all.
Sleepy Parishoner,
Worship is a multi-faceted event. Not only should the Preacher and Music leaders be prepared to do their best work, the worshippers should come to worship ready to participate as well, which includes active listening. We would all hope the
Spirit of God would touch your ears, your heart and your brain to connect with whatever is being said.
If, perhaps, the worshippers concentrated on what is positive in the service, rather than on what they wish would be different, the experience would improve for all.
Greetings-
Something caught my attention in the corporate interpretation of this passage by One Tom and responses by LF and Michelle. I am currently "struggling" with the tension between our individual issues and our corporate issues.
In systems thinking and group therapy, one's individual issues cannot be totally separated from one's system, be it family, workplace, church or other. We are not created as isolated lone rangers, but participants in various communities. How do we influence others and how do they influence us? Obviously, conversion and discipling are mostly individual focuses, but there is often the need for system, structural corporate change as well. Is there a cart and horse progression with individual change happening before the system?
In my own life, I tend to lean this way. Passionate spirituality and individual spiritual growth will raise the health of the congregation. Yet, I also realize that the language in our church carries our culture, ie, how we live our lives. Many of our churches want to "grow" by meeting institutional needs (members have to do their duty) and bypass the call to minister to the needs of individuals. We need to repent and change our language to focusing on the organism and not the organization. (note Natural Church Development thinking here)
Maybe, using the language of the text, is the tree affected by the rest of the vineyard? As disease can spread among trees, so it can among humans. (And disease seems to travel so much more rapidly than health!!!)
Having said all this, I think I am going to look at the both/and implications of this text. Individuals do need to repent. So do communities of faith. These both happen as together we learn to abide in Christ (cf. Isaiah's "seek the LORD while he may be found."
Grace and peace,
Prophet in PA
I am struck by verse 4: "Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them--do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem?" I instantly had a mental picture of the World Trade Center coming down on September 11, and all the questions about God and faith that surfaced for many people after that event. We recently watched "Faith and Doubt at Ground Zero" for an adult discussion class at church.
There are people who have interpreted the events of 9/11 as being an indication that God has deserted this country because of some sort of national failing - they like to focus on "kicking God out of the schools," pornography on the internet, etc. But if that is the case, were they paying the price for the sins (if you look at it that way) of the nation? Where does that leave Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross?
I'm also thinking about the Isaiah 55 reading for this week, which is one of my favorites, and as well the saying of Jesus that "the rain falls on the just and the unjust."
Not sure where I'm going with all this though!
RevMary
On the idea that the "current events" reported to and by Jesus were things that "just happen to happen," the instance with the Galileans was probably not a random act on the part of the Romans. Especially due to the acts of the Zealots in that region, Galilean equaled troublemaker or even terrorist. The Romans loved having the Fortress Antonia (named by Herod the Great for Mark Anthony) for their barracks because it was situated outside the northeast corner of the Temple with towers tall enough to see what went on inside the Temple Courtyards. This may not have been such a random act. Were these Galileans worse than other Galileans? Worse than same, maybe. Worse than all, no. The reporter may have been using an instance where known "bad guys" were involved to prove that bad things happen to bad people. Jesus replied with the story of the Tower of Siloam to illustrate that it wasn't necessarily so. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
The past two weeks of Lent, I've talked about temptation and how rebellious we are, in the context of God's covenant. For me this week's gospel will be a chance to talk about our illusion that somehow there is some piece of us that really is good enough to squeak us past the pearly gate. That's how I take all the "you will perish just as they did" talk--whatever the reason for those deaths, you're in no position to comment, for you are sinful enough to deserve that same fate.
I don't generally beat people about the head with how guilty they are, but Lord knows we need to hear it sometime. I may pull up Wesley's words--something about our utter depravity and how we are able to do "no good thing." This condition is the context in which we receive the grace of God. That's what for me makes it ok to go after people a little bit--everyone's in the same depraved boat, everyone, yet God is still gracious and merciful (insert Isaiah text here).
Looking forward to all your good ideas this week!
Laura in TX (revgilmer--it's the Rio Grande Valley, nearly as far possible from Texarkana!)
Three Biblical strategies for dealing with the problem of human suffering:
(1) Bad Things Happen to Bad People. This is the strategy favoured by the prophets - it is their pastoral and theological answer to the exile to Babylon. When the people tried to grapple with being kicked out of the Promised Land, and asked their religious leaders, "Why are we suffering?" the response was: Bad Things Happen to Bad People. In other words, they were paying the price of their corporate guilt for the sin (injustice and apostasy) of their nation.
Calling the nation to repentance, as a response to widespread suffering, is a time-honoured Biblical strategy.
(2) Bad Things Happen to Good People. Job is the obvious example. The pastoral and theological theme is about God's sovereignty and mysterious will. A lot of people who suffer find comfort in the idea that "God is teaching me something" through suffering. (But it's abusive to dictate that from the outside: to tell another person that "God is teaching you something through your suffering.") Another classic Biblical strategy.
(3) Bad Things Happen to Everybody - It's What You Do With Your Life That Counts. This is the way I understand our Gospel reading. It seems to me that Jesus does not interpret suffering with strategies (1) or (2). The Galilean rebels whom Pilate ordered slaughtered while they were at worship might have been considered "bad people" - but no worse than anyone else. The people accidentally killed in the tower collapse might have been considered "innocent bystanders" - but they were no better than anyone else.
When Jesus keeps saying, "Unless you repent, you will perish as they did" I read it to mean something like this: "You're all going to die. No one gets out of this alive. Bad things happen to everyone: the good, the bad, the indifferent. Unless you repent, and live in line with the kingdom of God, you will waste your single, precious life. Unless you repent, you will live and die a meaningless life, having worked for that which does not satisfy. Face it, the axe is lying at the root for everyone, so bear good fruit in the meantime."
One Tom: I found your response to me to be both uncharitable and untrue. I do not suggest "ignoring the Bible" nor was I recommending preaching an "uplifting" sermon. Please read more carefully, and perhaps with a more humble and open spirit. On the plus side, you've spurred my thinking about this, which hopefully will bear good fruit in my sermon. So, for spreading manure on me (!!) thank you... I guess. : )
LF
LF is closer to the truth, for me.
How often do we still say, when tragedy strikes. "What did I do wrong?" or "I must be being punished."
We simply do not accept tragedy as being divinely permitted.
The Jews believed that tragedy was a direct result of sin. Hence, how they treated lepers, the lame, the blind, the deaf, etc.
This is hinted to in John 9:1 "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?"
A person's tragic death was therefore associated with punishment.
This was an ideology that was ok, while it only involved individuals. The difficulty was associated with multiple deaths. To be true to their philosophy, they had to blame the people upon whom the tower fell, We would probably blame the architect or the engineer.), or the Galileans. (Didn't Pilate order the massacre?)
Hence the reference in Luke, when Jesus is attempting to point out to the crowds, where their true punishment really stems from.
It is derived from not leading the lives, that God desired of them. (I think there is a need to read this passage in relation to the entire chapter 12)
In this he speaks about the righteousness of the Pharisees and lawyers, and illicits the reasons, why their "good" lives, are not according to the will of God.
And I think this exchange is helpful though, in offering some explanation, for the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were considered to be totally evil cities. In their particular case, the entire population had sinned therefore the whole city was destroyed.
What would that ideology make of the recent earthquake in Iran, or Sept 11th.
Jesus in the parable relates that God has one simple desire. That we love one another, as he shows his love for us, by giving us life. If we do this, then every person's life is not a tragedy, but a joyous celebration of the life, they have brought to others.
This is, after all why we call this good news.
Regards to all for a fruitful week.
KGB in Aussie.
I would like to add this to the discussion:
Ezekiel 23
28 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
Since God's first law is about Love of myself as God and as neighbor so that I can love God and my neighbor as myself, Matthew 22:36-40
then my first sin is to hate myself as any neighbor since it results in me hating my neighbor as myself.
1 John 2:9-10. 3:4, 14-15; 4:7-8, 20.
So God is the one who makes the SAME bad things I hate and therefore fear: Job 3:25, 1 John 4:18: happen to me to get me to repent and love the bad things and to love the bad people who He sends to do it to me because I am sinning in my heart by hating anyone as myself.
So in summary:
More bad things tend to more happen to people who hate whoever and whatever: these are bad people: all we have to do is ask them, if they survive, if they hate who and what happened to them.
They take the events in the sin-of-Hate attitude.
Good things also hardly happen to bad people: their attitude of hate tends to halve and diminish the good.
Bad things hardly happen to good people, but when they do happen to people who are in Love of themselves as all others: these are good people: for them to set the example as to how in Love to handle bad people and bad things.Psalms 34:19. 1 corin 13:7-8. Their Love halves the bad: 2 corin 12:9-10. Of course people who hate bad people associate bad things ONLY with bad people and so would have to then incorrectly assume that a bad thing happened to a person because the person was bad as in John 9:1-3.
More good things happen more to good people. Their love then doubles up and magnifies the good. John 11:25-26. Matthew 25:29.
So it is because Jesus knew that most people hate themselves as others that he called on them to repent of that primary sin so that they could avoid the very thing they hated from happening to them.
Love & Respect,
Gordon
Michelle, your comment about the smell of manure made me think of the comment i heard about the environmental effect of these huge pig farms that are going up even near cities - Bob Dylan had the answer: "it is blowin' in the wind".
sorry it may not add much to your thinking on sermons, but hopefully it will give you a smile. deke of the north
It almost sounds like Jesus is saying, "This is your last chance."
Sally in Ga
Thank you, One Tom, for the insights - and to LF and Michelle who responded. I took yesterday off and your discussion, on top of other grains of wheat I gleaned, really got me to thinking!
Here goes!
1) the problem, as one early post indicated, isn't in the fruit; it's in the root
2) we demonstrate which god we serve by our actions - and deeper still, our thoughts and attitudes and prejudices.
3) a fig tree is an individual - with individuals' sins
4) a fig tree is also a group, or nation, or community, or whatever - where the sins of individuals (and not necessarily the "kicking God out of school" or "ordination of homosexuals" variety) has undue influence.
Just a thought ...
Sally
Last post ...
To the sleepy parishioner:
I understood your post as addressed to the "everypreacher" (akin to the literary everyman). Here's MY problem, as addressed to the "everycongregant."
It's my nature to be animated, but when I get too animated for your staidness, you criticize me for being "theatrical."
We're not here to entertain any more than we're here to give a college lecture. However, I feel fairly safe in saying this, we all have a passion for Christ and desire to communicate the message the Holy Spirit has given us. Maybe it's less about style, or being a laugh a minute, than it is about form.
So ... can't we all just get along???? the leading and following of worship is a two-way street.
Sally in GA
Sorry, one more ...
Gordon, my brother (I presume) ... I love your passion for love.
I also still, after all this time, don't understand the "so what?" I understand your descriptions of the problem (we don't love ourselves, thus not God or anyone else ...) and have no argument there! I still have yet to hear you say anything about how our congregants can STOP feeling this way simply by describing the same thing over and over regardless of the circumstances or scripture.
God has given you a valuable insight. But so far, that's all it is. An insight. Insight without action is pointless (and I daresay, self-hating).
Sally in GA
Dear Friends,
Anyone know what Morganite is? If you are from Morganton, North Carolina you do! Morganite is the treated waste of Morgantonians. You can buy it real cheap at the county dump and use it to mulch just about everything. Could it be that we need more of the untreated spiritual waste from our own towns to make us grow? Spread that thought around your spiritual roots. (Eeeuuwwwwww)
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Jesus cites two examples of sudden death. A tower falls on some bystanders. Pilate orders the massacre of worshippers, possibly religious protesters. Sin and punishment were central concerns in Jesus' time. It was assumed that when calamities befell people, it was because they were greater sinners than those spared. Jesus, however, is not interested in notions of the relativity of sin and evil. For Jesus, all of humanity is in need of repentance. To repent is to turn around, to reverse direction, to acknowledge the presence and action of God's goodness in the world. Without repentance, says Jesus, "You will all perish as they did" (Lk 13.3). Luke follows this severe message, this warning, with Jesus' parable about divine mercy. We learn from this placement of the stories that justice and mercy go together.
The gardener in the parable asks the owner to give a second chance to this plant that has not yet produced any fruit. The gardener knows things are not right with the plant and that it needs a change of conditions. It needs nurture and food in order to flourish. While there is no guarantee that the plant will become productive, the gardener wants to do everything possible to help it. God, it seems, has a green thumb, reviving what others count as dead and coaxing the wayward to repentance.
The plant in this parable is as good as dead. Even in times of hopelessness, God is present...and so, therefore, is hope. Though the first part of this passage is a challenging call to repentance, we are left with an image of God's mercy. As part of your Lenten reflection in keeping with this season's themes of God's presence and guidance, look for the ways that God is turning over the soil, watering and feeding the plant, in your life and the life of your community.
Coho, Midway City. . .thanks for the connections you've made between this passage and modern day situations (AIDS etc. . .). I also thought of making a connection between the tower of Siloam and the Twin Towers. Was this a judgement of God? Even today, some would ask that question. Jesus' reply if placed in this context is stark. Canadian in Scotland.
One Tom of many. . .I think your approach follows the allegorical method of interpretation which is stimulating if we continue to bear in mind the importance of historical-criticism. Can we be confident that these things are a theologising of the destruction of Jerusalem? The two events - the mixing of blood with sacrifice and the falling of the tower - are events which we cannot flesh out through external historical sources. I think we need to be careful not to press the images too hard (ie - Gardener as the Jesus who failed - could it not be an image of grace that prevails?). The overall point of this text is the paradox/tension between God's judgement and grace. Fred Craddock has excellent comments on this point in the Interpretation series. Canadian in Scotland.
Some beginning musings
manure - Miracle Grow - relationship with God - prayer, action, production
NSHB
I haven't done a serious study of the fall of the Tower of Siloam, but one source says it was taken apart on the outside in order to rescue the inside.
They took away some of the stones from one place in order to protect doors and other entryways somewhere else, and it just sort of collapsed.
One Tom of Many,
Hm,interesting thought. Lately I've been feeling that too little of my preaching is relevant to the whole body of Christ. Too much of it focuses on individual behavior. Could we (the church)hear this in this way?
Max in NC
I am troubled by this text this Sunday. I believe with all my heart that those who die in a terror attack or from natural causes are no more or less guilty than I am - but still why they and not me? Am I more repentant than they are? I don't think so. What is really going on in this reading?
What does it mean to 'truly repent' of your sins? What does metanoia have to do with the issue of impending 'judgment' when the judgment is not caused by anything except in the wrong place and the wrong time?
Help!
tom in ga (another one)
A story taknn from Robert Fulghum "It Was on Fire when I Lay Down On It"
A Mna found a horse in the forest and took it home with him. Unfortunately for the man, the horse was the property of the king. The king had the man arrested for stealing his horse and was going to have the man put to death. The man explained what had happened and said that he would gladly take his punishment, but did the king know that he could teach the horse to talk? And wouldn'tthe king's guest be impressed with a king who had a talking horse. So the king gives him a year to teach the horse to talk.
The man's friends think he is nuts. But he says "Who knows? In a years time the king might die, or I might die, the world might come to an end, the king might forget. But maybe, just maybe, the horse will learn to talk!" One must believe that anything can happen.
Even a resurrection from the dead-both Christ's and ours.
grace and peace;
revgilmer in Texarkana
Now we jump over to the Gospel lesson from Luke 13, which is the exact same spiritual lesson as Paul is describing in 1st Corinthians 10. Jesus is confronted by antagonists who very innocently ask him about these Galileans who were slaughtered by Pilate. The direction the questions are pointing is toward the commonly held belief of the day, that any tragedy or suffering was the direct result of your sinfulness or having displeased the gods. We’ve seen these questions before; When the World Trade Towers were attacked the religious fanatics, just like these in Luke 10, said: “Isn’t because we’re so sinful? Isn’t this tragedy a sign of America’s moral decline. We got rid of prayer in school and the Ten Commandments, and so now God is punishing us for being so sinful.” In John 9:2 Jesus is asked if a man’s blindness is because he was a sinner or because his parents were sinners. In the book of Job, 8:20, Job’s friends are sure that Job’s suffering is due to sinfulness. “Surely God does not reject a blameless man or strengthen the hands of evil doers?” they question.
Some misled Christians even take this philosophy to the extreme that they refuse to help people who are poor and suffering because to do so might interfere with God’s punishment upon them. We equate being poor and outcast with being lazy and sinful. American Christians carry the stench of a pagan morality that says that since we are blessed with material wealth and health, that we must be right with God.
But Jesus rejects this direct causal correlation between tragedy and sinfulness, between success and blessing, because he detects a moral manipulation underneath it. The reason why we’re so quick to accept that someone else’s tragedy must have been caused by their wickedness, is because we can then reason backwards from that belief to say that since I have not suffered tragedy, therefore I must be in a state of righteousness and blessing from God. We’re taking refuge in our status as the nominally blessed and saying that it’s an indication that we’re on the right side of God. It’s the very same impulse that was driving the Corinthians. An arrogant assumption of righteousness based upon blessings we’ve received from God.
To which Jesus says: “Look out now!”
BS in NM
I keep playing with Jensen's comment about how the sin of the Fig tree is not producing "Bad Fruit" but rather producing no fruit at all.
I think I am going to deal with the sin of Complacency. I find myself, sadly, not wanting to care or do anything. I find myself finding the world winning out when I fear to take a stand that might get me in trouble.
I know this following Poem or Prayer or statement has experienced much change throughout the internet, and every place I go they state, "This is the real one." This one seems to be mostly historically accurate:
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Perhaps the sin I hold is so far from producing Bad Fruit, but not producing anything at all. Perhaps I need to risk, and just trust the food that is feeding me at the Altar. Perhaps the bread and wine that feed me.. perhaps the water that give me roots will also let me sing out.
I have been asked to be present at a public rally of PFLAG and Gay/Straight Alliance of University of Alaska (SE). Not to speak. Just to be a presence there. And I find myself scared. I have a gay brother. I am fully supportive. And yet, here I sit, wondering. Not wanting to act. Wanting to stay still.
Perhaps I need to risk. Scary as that happens to be. I might fall. I will fall. But how can I be picked back up again if I never move.
Some thoughts from Juneau...
RevJohn in Juneau
RevJohn in Juneau
I had a boss in the secular field who used to say
'Do something, even if it's wrong' whenvever he found employees standing around doing nothing that looked like work, but they were on the time clock.
I'm certain Jesus would prefer us to not intentionally do anything wrong, but you are correct to say that laisse faire doesn't work in the Christian world, either.
Sorry, one more ...
Gordon, my brother (I presume) ... I love your passion for love.
I also still, after all this time, don't understand the "so what?" I understand your descriptions of the problem (we don't love ourselves, thus not God or anyone else ...) and have no argument there! I still have yet to hear you say anything about how our congregants can STOP feeling this way simply by describing the same thing over and over regardless of the circumstances or scripture.
God has given you a valuable insight. But so far, that's all it is. An insight. Insight without action is pointless (and I daresay, self-hating).
Ok Sally in GA,
Let me try again...here!
HOW you and your congregants can STOP being self-hating which leads to hating others as self is for YOU first to:
1. Mark 1:14-15: Repent of ever hating yourself as any words and their opposites. Matthew 5:43-48. 22:36-40. 7:12. John 1:1. 6:63. 1 John 3:4. 4:20. Acts 2:38-40.
Then believe in Love for yourself as all words. Romans 10:9-10. John 15:9
2. Teach yourself with God's help to THINK and SAY the words "I love myself as good and as bad, as just and as unjust, as rich and as poor, for better and for worse, as well and as ill, as everything and its opposite, as Pointed and as pointless!" smile
See John 6:44-45. Also Matthew 12:34-37, Romans 8:28, 35-39, 2 corin 12:9-10, Philippians 4:8-13 and Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 for more opposites.
3. Teach your congregants Steps 1 to 3.
Then you will be able to say with me:
I love myself as pointed and pointless so that I can take WITH LOVE any person's description of me as pointless, and then love the describer back as pointless too since it takes one to know one, and thena sk them to help me be full of points!
When I see me as pointless, I am only self-hating if I hate myself as pointless! Me hating myself as pointless means that I will hate you as myself when I see you as pointless.
When you see me as pointless, I am self-hating to you, and you do hate me as yourself ONLY IF you already hate yourself as pointless, or hate being pointless.
But there is a point in pointlessness! So the pointlessness of insight without action is that the insight of self-Love does NOT point at others initially, but at myself to begin with! Then as that Love-pointed insight works inside on the inner man of me first by preparing my attitude of mind with Love for everything, I first of all take the sin-beams of hate for myself as any word out of circulation in my heart.
Love is like a newly-begotten baby or newly-planted seed: at first nothing visible is being done OUTSIDE, but all is being connected and done invisibly INSIDE! So it then looks as if: What's the point?
But then, automatically, all subsequent thoughts and speech and deeds are in Love: I can then think and speak and do in Love. ephes 4:15-16. 1 Corin 13:1-3.16:14.
Then having prepared myself with Love for myself as all others and so with Love for all others as myself, I am ready to help all others love themselves as all words so thay can love all others as themselves, and am pre-paired to be called in Hate and to take in Love all the words and names I already love me as so that I can NOT be offended by being called any name such as pointless! smile See Psalms 119:165
The secret of self-Love is that loving yourself does NOT initially involve DOING any deed: it only involves THINKING with my mind and SAYING with my mouth as per Romans 10:9-10: I love me as all words and their opposites! That is HOW we first bring ALL THOUGHTS into the captivity of Christ. 2 Corin 10:5. That is HOW we put mind in gear before putting words in mouth or actions in hand! It is like being a child all over again: this time an adult-child with ALL Love and NO Malice, john 3:1-8, 1 corin 14:20: taking Love all in BEFORE giving it all out!
We are infinitely more human BEINGS than human DOINGS!
The doings will automatically be done.
Okay?
Please ask me for it if you think I left anything out at all!
Hope that helps to assuage your concerns that this insight is still in its no-action stage! smile
I am in GA too: so if you want some IWAIL: Insight With Action In Love, I am willing to come to your church for a public examination by you and all! smile
Just say the word! smile
All Love and Respect,
Gordon
Repentance is a turning around, but what about perish? At first I assumed it meant to die, given the examples of sudden death of the Galilians and the 18 killed by the Tower of Siloam. butas I read Brian Stoffrogen's notes (www.crossmarks.com), he indicates that perish (appolumi) is also used figuratively or spiritually as lost or dead.
For those who want to save their life WILL LOSE it,... LUke 9:24-25
parable of lost son, lost coin, and lost sheep.
Stoffrogen then goes on to say:
"How should the word be understood in our text? I don't think that Jesus implies that if someone is not repentant, that they will die an untimely death as the people inthe illustrations. I would be more inclined to think that what is destroyed or lost is the relationship between God and humanity."
that has given me some new insight into this text. We want a nice and easy answer to why bad things happen to people - they were evil/sinful therefore they died at an early age... but we know that's just not true. Possibly what this text is saying ishtat there is no one to one connection between sin and what happens to us in our life. That doesn't discount a certain amount of cause and effect aspect of life, but it's just not that simple that all tht happens is purely cause and effect.
LA in VT
Re: Perish:
Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Since our ability to repent is granted by God,
Christ is really saying:
Unless God gave us the ability to repent of the sin of self-hate by loving ourselves as He loves us, we would all perish.
Therefore, since God WILL give repentance to us all, all will be saved:
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
GH in GA
A young couple at my church just lost their first born in the 8th month of pregnancy this afternoon. Please keep them in your prayer (you can refer to them as Sera's parents in your prayer). And keep me in prayer too, as I attempt to minister to them.
Coho, Midway City
Coho,
I am up late preparing for a funeral myself, and saw your post. You and the family are in my prayers.
Michelle
Coho:
You and Sera's parents are in my prayers as well. I lost a child midway through pregnancy, and the grief was deep. Just be with them and cry with them.
Laura in TX
tom in ga wrote:
>>What does it mean to 'truly repent' of your sins? What does metanoia have to do with the issue of impending 'judgment' when the judgment is not caused by anything except in the wrong place and the wrong time?
I agree that this is a confusing text. It seems like maybe Jesus is using one thing to prove another. The examples of the random bad things hitting people just like us (just as bad or just as good) become sort of a pointer toward the calamitous death of the soul that happens when we don't repent. "You think those people who had the tower fall on them were bad, but you are sinful, and the death your sin will cause will be just as bad." I don't know if that makes any sense.
As I roll all of this over and over, I just keep coming back to the thought that the examples just prove how hopeless our situation is without relying on the grace of God. I too wonder about repentance--the only people I know who truly repent are ones who are about to kill themselves drinking or something, when the stakes are very high. The rest of us just kind of learn a little bit each year and try to be a little better than we used to be, keep it between the lines, and that feels like all the success we can hope for. I sure don't know that I could stand up and say that I have "truly" repented enough to make Jesus happy.
So I sit with the discomfort of that, the reality of that, and then I read Isaiah and dare to trust in the mercy of God's grace. It is in the hopelessness of my condition that that grace takes on meaning. I don't mean that as a cop-out, but as honesty, a tension that I hope will continue to produce growth in me. But it is only in the removal of my illusions about myself that growth can come.
Laura in TX
So, "Unless you repent, you will die without having repented, just as those others who died without warning"?
Too circuitous?
Michelle
Dear RevJohn in Juneau,
Greetings! Just a note of encouragement: The fruit God is looking for in you and on you is Love: Love is the first fruit, so the Holy Spirit must be The Tree of Love. Galatians 5:22-23.
And the Love-tree is the special kind of tree that also produces all the other fruits in Love: joy in Love, sadness in Love, peace in Love, war in Love, longsuffering in Love, short-suffering in Love, and etc!
see?
Love is shed abroad by the HS in our hearts: romans 5:3
That Love is oozing from every word in your post! So there! You ARE prodcing THE real fruit! You are okay!
Do you not love God and you and your gay friends and whoever else? That's the fruit!
No fruit means no Love in heart. No talent is no Love. Love is the talent of talents. Love is the Coin of the realm. The sin of the man who buried his one talent was hate of himself as a person who takes something for nothing! His sin was NOT that he produced nothing: his sin was that he hated himself as a nobody and thief and hard-man, and in that sinful attitude hated Christ and in the sinful attitude produced nothing! Those who produce nothing but love in heart are more productive than those who produce everything but do so in Hate of nobodies and of nothing! see? See Luke 18:9-11.
Now if you do hate whoever, then just repent of that and love them in your heart.
Then that Love will tell you when to take a stand in Love or when in Love to NOT take a stand. Eccles 3:1-8.The Love of Jesus is the basis of the Wisdom of Solomon. Matthew 12:42.
Taking a stand or not is irrelevant: any act is just that: putting on an act: only Love in your heart is relevant and makes all action and all inaction genuine.
ok?
I love you!
Love and respect,
gordon
More encouragement:
The sin of the Fig tree is NOT in producing "Bad Fruit" and is not in producing no fruit at all, but the sin of hate for being fruitless and so in hating the fruitless or the barren woman or barren desert or etc as myself.
The sin of Complacency is the sin of hating the lax, the lazy and the complacent. When I hate being complacent and lazy and lax, I will have a hard time being content and relaxed since being contented and relaxed and lazing in the sun on vacation makes me look as if I am complacent and lax, and vice versa, and in Hate of being lax and complacent, I can't bear to even look so. Romans 4:17. 1 corin 13:7-8. Then of course, I will also hate those who are lax or complacent or look so as myself. philippians 4:11-13. 1 corin 13:1-3. Those who hate being lax can not re-lax or take vacations and laze in the sun! smile
First they came for the communists, and in hate of being taken away and in hate of being a communist I did not speak out-- because to me I was not a communist: luke 18:9-14;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out in Love-- because I was not a socialist; ephes 4:15.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out in Love-- because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out in Love-- because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me-- and in hate of myself there was no one left to speak out in Love for me.... not even me.
i corin 9:18-22. isaiah 58:6-7
So the sin I hold is not only the sin of hate for myself as bad in producing Bad Fruit, but also my sin of hate for myself as barren in not producing anything at all. matthew 5:43-48
I need to risk loving myself as barren and fruitful, as all words and their opposites, and just trust the food of Love that is being fed me at the Altar of Love. matthew 12:34-37
Perhaps the bread of Love and wine of Love that feed me.. perhaps the water of Love that give me roots in Love will also let me sing out. yes.isaiah 55:1
I have been asked to be present at a public rally of PFLAG and Gay/Straight Alliance of University of Alaska (SE). Not to speak. Just to be a presence there. And I find myself scared which is okay if i love being scared: proverbs 1:7, but is not if I hate being scared: 1 john 4:18.
I have a gay brother. I am fully supportive in Love of myself as gay and as straight. And yet, here I sit, wondering. Not wanting to act which is okay in Love but not okay of I hate being inactive. Wanting to stay still is ok in Love of being still and doing nothing, but not okay if I hate doing nothing abd jhate being a nobody! Exodus 14:13: standing still in Love is ok!
Perhaps I need to risk loving me as God loves me: john 15:9. Scary as that Love of myself happens to be. I might fall IN LOVE! I will fall in Love. Those who hate falling fall in hate! But how can I be picked back up again in Love if I never move in Love and have my being in Love and so be-have in Love! Acts 17:28-29.
Some thoughts from gordon in atlanta...to RevJohn in Juneau
Sometimes less is more! I think Jesus is merely asking, "Are better than any other humans"? Digging to deep in the first area can be dangerous as it leads to too much interpetation. To focus on His meaning, look at the parable. The main point is to grow or die!
Roger in Pa.
Sometimes less is more! I think Jesus is merely asking, "Are better than any other humans"? Digging to deep in the first area can be dangerous as it leads to too much personal interpetation. To focus on His meaning, look at the parable. The main point is to grow or die!
Roger in Pa.
Michelle: circuitous? I think that's the whole point! Rather existential, ain't it?
Sally
Gordon,
I wasn't asking, but thanks anyway, bro
Sally
I'm going to follow-up on this past Sunday's theme: It was the covenant God made with Abram that he would have children of his own issue ... I considered my average-age of 70 + congregation and thought of the promise of children to them, then, of course, translated it into a congregational theme. What to do when it looks like you'll be the last generation. (sorry, wanted to put it in context)
I used the theme of a few years ago, "No barren churches," and pondered the dilemma when you really have been faithful and still are barren. It's demoralizing. So, there must be something else.
This is the something else - it's not about being good, it's not about being religious, not about being planted in the ground, in the right spot
the problem, as one early post indicated, is in the roots ... with healthy roots, we'll produce healthy fruit. I think I'm going to be bold and say it more directly this time: maybe we'd do well to look at how we can improve our roots - and when I try, or anyone tries, someone comes along and says, "we don't do it that way here," or "we can't afford it," or "we don't want the liability," or "I don't approve," or "we have a policy against that." (I'm not inventing - these are frequently said in the church I serve).
Are the roots planted in religion but tended by earthly concerns? Yes!
Thus, there is no real separation between religious and non-religious people. Good and bad fall on whomever, as does prosperity and famine.
Sally in GA
This my first posting. Please bear with me. It seems that Jesus in his comments regarding the Galileans and the Tower of Siloam is offering a new way of thinking about God. Rather, than affirm thinking of God in terms of reward in punishment, he says repent. Could he be saying turn away from that way of thinking about God or that image of God? He then offers the parable of the fig tree. It seems the problem of the fig tree is not about fruit but roots - perhaps roots drawing "life" or "faith" from that old way of thinking of God. The gardner - I take the gardner to be Jesus - then promises to nourish the roots and give the tree life. This Jesus does with his death on the Cross. The "so what" factor to me is God is a God of life who gives us life through our Savior, Jesus Christ. The degree to which we insist he he is a God of retribution is the degree to which we blind ourselves to the life he offers - in every situation.
First Posting person. Just a minor quibble. The idea of repentance is not new with Jesus. The OT prophets had been trying hundreds of years BC to
get the people to repent of their sins (idolatry, mostly) and return to God. And then, John the Baptist's entire preaching theme was repentance, turning away from sins.
CARL
Here is something else to chew on. This insight is not my own, but gleaned from Hanson and Oakman 1998, "Palestine in the Time of Jesus"
P. 105 "The story about the languishing fig tree symbolizes the elite stranglehold under which Jesus' society has fallen."
Hanson and Oakman relate the struggle of the peasant to reclaim control of agricultural production from the elite estate owners. Peasant operated vineyards/orchards used to supply the needs of individual families. However, lands were increasingly being turned into farms that grew not figs for the peasant class, but olives and grapes for the rich estate owners (Luke 12:18, 13:6).
P. 106 "Elite decisions have led to social sickness, and fig trees languish."
My question is... How would this type of reading change the way we preach this text? Coming from an area in which corporate farms are pushing out the smaller family farms, this could be very prophetic and revolutionary.
Just musing...
RB in PA
More cultural info from Palestine...
Luke 13:6 The fact that the man had a fig tree denotes that he wasn't necessarily a poor farmer, but a landowner from the city who had tenant farmers work his land. If he was a true Israelite, he would have expected a lapse of nine years to occur before a decision of the fruit bearing capability to be established: three years for growing and nurturing, three years where he is forbidden to harvest fruit (Lev. 19:23), and three years when he could come and reap harvest of his crop. So, we can assume that Jesus is talking about an established tree (a nine year old) that has not born any fruit. Sounds like a few congregations I have known.
It is also interesting that cutting a fig tree down was not the usual method of destruction. Trees were dug up in Palestine if they were unproducing, not cut off at the roots. Is this an editoral faux pas or a glimpse of hope of resurrection?
RB in PA
In seminary we used to kid one another about who would be the best at going to the “barren trees” and bringing “manure.”
Last fall our congregation sent 10 heifers (through HPI) to our companion congregation of the Pare people in Tanzania. We heard from the pastor there that over forty families applied for a heifer. What is amazing is the main reason that people want a heifer. We assumed it was for milk; but the reason is the manure. The peasant farmers need the manure to replace the nutrients in the soil in order to carry out their subsistence farming.
Manure is a scarce and valuable resource. I am humbled by that whenever I step into the pulpit.
Pr. del in IA
RevJohn in Juneau. I loved the idea of addressing complacency. It really fits with my congregation. Thanks for the insight.
NSHB
Earlier, revdlk in nebraska posted, Repent: "to change the way you look for happiness."
revdlk in nebraska, that sentence has become my theme for the week, but not quite in the way your parable which followed illustrated. Don't get me wrong--it's good; it just didn't catch my imagination.
Then again, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. On Ash Wednesday, a young man in our community who was born without fingers on his hands, but has two lobster-claw-like fingers on each hand, and who is very independent, was in a car accident and has severely crippled one of his feet, which may or may not return to normal. When I visited him at home a week later (he is not a member of the church, but very loosely connected), he said, "Today was a good day."
To me, that was a statement of faith.
Even though it's only Wednesday, I'm panicking, and desperately need help!
Many thanks. Sybil in Kansas
Earlier, revdlk in nebraska posted, Repent: "to change the way you look for happiness."
revdlk in nebraska, that sentence has become my theme for the week, but not quite in the way your parable which followed illustrated. Don't get me wrong--it's good; it just didn't catch my imagination.
Then again, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. On Ash Wednesday, a young man in our community who was born without fingers on his hands, but has two lobster-claw-like fingers on each hand, and who is very independent, was in a car accident and has severely crippled one of his feet, which may or may not return to normal. When I visited him at home a week later (he is not a member of the church, but very loosely connected), he said, "Today was a good day."
To me, that was a statement of faith.
Even though it's only Wednesday, I'm panicking, and desperately need help!
Many thanks. Sybil in Kansas
I am a farmer as well as a minister. Two things strike me about the fig tree passage. The fig tree was growing in a vineyard. A vineyard is a field of grapes. In the ideal farm the fig tree would not be there but because of historical circumstances the fig tree was growing there as an anomaly. The owner was looking for a unique contribution from a fig tree in a field of grape vines.
Manure constantly gets a bad rap. You put wholesome and nutritious food into your mouth. The body extracts from that food the nutrients it can harvest for its own use and expels the rest, along with spent microorganisms and metabolic waste products resulting from the proper functioning of your body. Give manure some respect. There are more benefits to be gained from the God-given food we eat than what our human bodies are capable of achieving.
Harry
Coho
My wife and I lost a child during pregnancy, and the pain is still there (this was in 1992). I am so grateful for some of my minister friends who ministered to me at that time. At a time like this, all you can do is hold the parents and listen and cry with them.
Who do you have to hold yourself in this very tough time?
my deepest prayers are with you
revgilmer in texarkana
Coho: I can find little to say except to share my sadness with you and the young couple. May God bind every broken heart.
LF
Wow. only mid-week and it's all been said! Oh well, here's my little musing: I get a hunch that one thing said by Paul (other forum) and Jesus (here) speaks to mortality. Guess what? EVERYONE DIES. Don't know when, by what means, nor especially for what sort of higher reason/purpose/justification (if any). Just plain everybody dies. This cannot be stopped (...now Jesus does delay the death of a Lazarus here, and a few young lads there...)
What strikes me is that in one's dying there are some options for HOW news is received or rememberred by the community: Will one be rememberred for the circumstances by which death came (tragic accident, rampant tyrant, sexual promiscuity, etc.) or will one be rememberred for the life lived (fruits of service, faithfulness, relationship...) [Does Mel's movie leave society remembering Jesus' means of death...or his life legacy?-good criteria by which to measure "The Passion of The Christ" as well as our preaching!]
Here, it's the parable of a determined gardener bring about the latter that speaks of God's Grace towards ensuring a memorable legacy rather than simply a graphic termination.-how do you think this'll preach for Lent #3?
Perry in Kitchener/Waterloo
Wow. only mid-week and it's all been said! Oh well, here's my little musing: I get a hunch that one thing said by Paul (other forum) and Jesus (here) speaks to mortality. Guess what? EVERYONE DIES. Don't know when, by what means, nor especially for what sort of higher reason/purpose/justification (if any). Just plain everybody dies. This cannot be stopped (...now Jesus does delay the death of a Lazarus here, and a few young lads there...)
What strikes me is that in one's dying there are some options for HOW news is received or rememberred by the community: Will one be rememberred for the circumstances by which death came (tragic accident, rampant tyrant, sexual promiscuity, etc.) or will one be rememberred for the life lived (fruits of service, faithfulness, relationship...) [Does Mel's movie leave society remembering Jesus' means of death...or his life legacy?-good criteria by which to measure "The Passion of The Christ" as well as our preaching!]
Here, it's the parable of a determined gardener bring about the latter that speaks of God's Grace towards ensuring a memorable legacy rather than simply a graphic termination.-how do you think this'll preach for Lent #3?
Perry in Kitchener/Waterloo
A scientist once approached God and said, "You know what, God, we don't really need you anymore."
God replied, "Really. Why do you say that?"
The scientist answered, "We can now do everything you can, even create human life."
God answered, "That's interesting. Human life--out of dirt?"
"Yes."
"Okay," said God,"let's have a human-making contest."
"You're on." replied the scientist picking up a handful of dirt.
"Wait,wait," cried God,"get your own dirt!"
I came across this uncredited story in another church's newsletter, and I couldn't help but think about it with this week's gospel.
It would seem to me that the reason the tree (if you take that to be us) bears no fruit is because there is inherently something wrong with it.
A tree's main purpose in life is to produce (oxygen,fruit, seeds, more trees,etc), if it is not doing that than something is wrong.
So, we (sinners in this life)are not doing what we were created to do. We have sucked nutrients (what we want) from our God, challenged God's authority, demanded God to fix it or we'll walk away, and we have produce nothing in return. This is the wrong.
Perhaps repenting, at its root, is the realization that we are not doing that for which we were created. Without God, to nourish and sustain us, we will indeed perish.
PG in IL
Didn't John the Baptist say that the Messiah was coming with an axe in hand to chop down the tree? (of Israel)? Here Jesus is stopping the axe from falling.
We often see God as one who controls all the bad things in life. Why me, God? Jesus is saying that is not a sign of God, what is a sign is when a tree is given longer time, when mercy is shown, when hope is given. That's a sign of God. They are often harder to see and even harder to recognize.
RB In CA
Somebody else may have already said this.
Fig trees only produce when they are well cultivated. If they are neglected, they die. (Westminster Dictionary of the Bible)
My own take:
Israel is a vineyard, God is the vineyard owner, as per other parables, OT and NT alike. God planted something different (a fig tree) in this vineyard - not Jesus himself, but what Jesus was teaching. It was not bearing fruit, it was being rejected or ignored. God wanted to take it away perhaps to plant another fig tree somewhere else (Gentiles?), but the gardener, Jesus, said, No, let it go one more year. Then, if nothing else works to make Israel faithful, then it can be taken away from them.
Jesus' ministry was 3 years in length and nothing much changed, but the Church started to really take hold in the 4th year after his Baptism.
PG in IL -
That's really a fine interpretation. The only thing I wonder is, what good would it do the gardener to give it special attention for one more year? Wouldn't it simply suck up more nutrients and still not bear fruit?
Perhaps the focus of this parable isn't so much about the fig tree as it is about the mercy of the gardener. Just like the parables of the good shepherd, the woman who lost the coin and the Prodigal's father aren't focused on the sheep, coin or the son. The parables are most powerful when we focus on the diligence, faithfulness and love of the shepherd, woman and father.
Also - speaking towards another line of thinking expressed earlier in the week. I think there is a difference between temptations and trials. Luther says in the catechism regarding the petition in the Lord's Prayer (lead us not into temptation) that "God tempts no one to sin, but we pray in this prayer that the devil, the world and our sinful self may not decieve us and draw us into false belief, depair, and other great and shameful sins. And we pray that even though we are so tempted, we may still win the final victory."
Psalm 23 tells us that "God leads us in right paths for his name's sake". In other words, God's reputation is on the line if he doesn't do a good job in leading and directing us - leading us away or out of temptation.
In other words, bad things do happen to people unfairly - we cannot look at such things as towers falling and say, "Look at that - God is punishing those people." There are far too many, then, that go unpunished - i.e. the fig tree. But because bad things do happen to people unfairly, we must live our lives daily in good relationship with God and those God has given us to love. And, if we are given another day to live and love, it's not because we deserved it, but because by God's grace, God gives us another chance - another chance to love and another opportunity to be loved.
Tigger in MN
PG in IL -
That's really a fine interpretation. The only thing I wonder is, what good would it do the gardener to give it special attention for one more year? Wouldn't it simply suck up more nutrients and still not bear fruit?
Perhaps the focus of this parable isn't so much about the fig tree as it is about the mercy of the gardener. Just like the parables of the good shepherd, the woman who lost the coin and the Prodigal's father aren't focused on the sheep, coin or the son. The parables are most powerful when we focus on the diligence, faithfulness and love of the shepherd, woman and father.
Also - speaking towards another line of thinking expressed earlier in the week. I think there is a difference between temptations and trials. Luther says in the catechism regarding the petition in the Lord's Prayer (lead us not into temptation) that "God tempts no one to sin, but we pray in this prayer that the devil, the world and our sinful self may not decieve us and draw us into false belief, depair, and other great and shameful sins. And we pray that even though we are so tempted, we may still win the final victory."
Psalm 23 tells us that "God leads us in right paths for his name's sake". In other words, God's reputation is on the line if he doesn't do a good job in leading and directing us - leading us away or out of temptation.
In other words, bad things do happen to people unfairly - we cannot look at such things as towers falling and say, "Look at that - God is punishing those people." There are far too many, then, that go unpunished - i.e. the fig tree. But because bad things do happen to people unfairly, we must live our lives daily in good relationship with God and those God has given us to love. And, if we are given another day to live and love, it's not because we deserved it, but because by God's grace, God gives us another chance - another chance to love and another opportunity to be loved.
Tigger in MN
I have enjoyed the spirited discussion that is going on this week. The text is taking me in a different direction than where the conversation has been, so I apologize for the tangent.
I have been thinking about other places in the Gospels that use "tree and fruit" language and have been comparing those to our text. First we find "Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Luke 3:9 & Matthew 3:10) Then there is Jesus, "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; for each tree is known by its own fruit;..."(Luke 6:43-44 & Matthew 7: 16-20) In those two instances the two synoptics are congruent. Next we find Matthew 12:33, "Either make the tree good and its fruit good; or make it bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit", this closly alines itself with Jesus' pervious statement but what I find as interesting is the Aorist, Active, Imparitive used in the greek 'poiesate' that is translated as 'make'. We then have the "I am the true vine" found in the farewell discorse of John (15:2-16) and then there is our text for this week. The difference that I am seeing, is that in our text, as opposed to the other texts, we have a good tree not bearing fruit at all. If a tree is to be known by its fruit, how is this tree known? It is known by the gardner. I am hoping for feed back on this question: "Does this text speak to you as sanctification?"
I mean we have the landlord (God the Father) we have the gardener (God the Son) and we have the manure (God the Spirit) all activly working to bring about a change (repentance) in the tree (us) so that we may bear good fruit (good works).
"For good works do not precede faith, nor is sanctification prior to justification. First the Holy Spirit kindles faith in us in conversion through the hearing of the Gospel. Faith apprehends the grace of God in Christ whereby the person is justified. After the person is justified, the Holy Spirit next renews and sanctifies him, and from this renewal and sanctification the friuts of good works will follow. (Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article III. Righteousness paragragh 41) To this we can then added, "Seen from the vantage point of Christology, our justification, redemption, sanctification and perfection are all accoplished in Christ and, as a matter of fact, they all mean the same thing." (Faith Victorious, Lennart Pinomaa p46) I see this text as speaking to sanctification: does any one else?
Well, I guess that brings me to the: "So and What". God is not done with us yet. Even though we are sinful, because of the gift of faith in Christ and by the grace of God, we can know that we are sinners in need of a savior. In knowing we are sinners we can turn to God (repent) and through God's grace through faith in Christ find forgivness of sins, so we can then, by the power of the Holy Spirit, bear the fruit of Christian lives of love and service.
Grace and Peace, Badlands Paul
I will add these words, as well, to my previous post:
And, in other words, good things happen to people unfairly as well – we cannot look at some people and say, “Look at that – God is rewarding those people.” There are far too many, then, that go unrewarded (in our eyes). But because good things happen to people unfairly, we still must live our lives daily in good relationship with God and those God has given us to love. And, if we are given another day to live and love, it’s not because we deserved it, but because by God’s grace, God gives us another chance – another chance to love and another opportunity to be loved.
Tigger in MN
The county coroner belongs to our church. During my sermon this past Sunday his cell phone rang. We later learned it would be to pronounce a 17 year old girl dead at the scene of a car accident. The parents, other relatives and about 600 high school students are wondering why. I think Jesus would tell us that is was not a punishment. She is no worse than any of us. But we do need to know that at any moment we can lose our lives and we need to have a right relationship with the Lord. PH in OH
Karma: what comes around goes around. You sow evil you reap evil. You plant goodness you enjoy goodness. This is one of many tenets of faith of Buddhism and Hinduism where Christianity differ not and are the same:
Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Hosea 8
7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
Hosea 10
12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
This is my first posting also. I have gleaned much from your discussions for a long time and really appreaciate all the different approaches. (You will all probably come to know me by my terrible spelling - I'm assuming there is no spell check associated with this and so I will appologize in advance... ~:-)
First, to Fred in SF: I'm very sorry and disappointed that you used Rev John in Juneau's example of his conflict about complacency versus the risk of disapponting others as a vehicle to judge the issue (homosexusality) and thus him and his brother. It seems that you missed the point of an example that can relate to all of us who are torn between our call to be prophetic witnesses for God and the reality of trying to discern if a certain issue is a "hill we are willing to die on." Unless I am mistaken, the ethos of this supportive community (DSP contributors)is Christian love. For me, that includes being accountable to each other, but being very careful not to fall into the onious role of judging our brothers and sisters who are willing to risk making themselves vulnerable to each other in what is usually assumed to be a safe place. It has seemed to me that this is one of the reasons this site is so helpful in being able to learn from one another and gain insights that can lead us to becoming better witnesses to the love of God. I was hurt and offended by your response (and it has nothing to do with my stance on homosexuality or anything else.) I assume you are a faithul person from whom I can learn a great deal, I just hope and pray that in the future you will consider leaving the judgement to God...
OK, now that I have that off my chest, I would like to weigh in on the parable. I, too am taking the path of Jesus being the one to plead for mercy for our sakes. He agrees to be the one to do all the work to try to insure that "we" the barren tree produces fruit. In doing that, he is taking the risk, paying the price (giving himself up for our sins) and risking his own reputation with the land owner if his efforts don't "pay off" in order to spare the tree. Jesus sacrificed his reputation with all of the "powers that be" - (or were) at the time of his crucifixion by being hung on a cross like a common criminal in order to buy us more time - in fact all the time in the world - eternity...
Could that also be part of the point of the first five verses? We will all die physically, and how it happens won't have anything to do with judgement. But there is more to the story, and it is Good News! If we repent and change our course, understanding that God is love, incarnated in JC and then live accordingly, we will have eternal life - a promise that can take us beyond the concern of physical death and the judgement we are so inclined to link to it. My only problem with that is it assumes that the others who died in the trajic episodes did not repent and therefore missed eternal life - and we can't know that... so I suppose it would work against itself.
I'm confusing myself now - anyone care to help me decide whether this interpretation is salvagable with some tweaking or if I should just cut bait and stick with the sermon I've prepared with a more traditional understandings?
Peace,
Chris in Limbo
To Sleepy Parishoner,
Perhaps you are sleepy because you have the players in the worship service confused. I like to share this with my PPRC and Worship Committees--
Most people in the pews view the players as follows:
God is the prompter,
The preacher is the entertainer,
The congregation is the audience,
But in actuality:
God is the audience,
The preacher is the prompter, and
The congregation is the entertainer.
In other words, you will get out of worship what you put into it. I challenge you to rethink your idea of worship--it's purpose is to focus on God, and not on yourself and what you get from it.
"rev"ing for Jesus in NC
Two thoughts on the eve of Sunday:
A few summers ago I attended a Southern Baptist Church in North West Georgia during my vacation. As I entered the church I was welcomed and as I said something like "how are you?" the response came back "I am blessed!" Also, all of us have heard the statement, and sometimes we have made this statement ourselves "What I am facing is not as bad as what other people must face."
Now I am thinking about these comments in relationship to our reading this Sunday. Are there people who honestly think that they are more "blessed" than others; or that "are worse off" than we are?
It seems to me that you cannot judge the inner liife of a person by their exterior. We are all blessed, and we are all in the same boat as the person who is worse off. We can never be too cocky about our relationship with God. Salvation is a promise and not a brand-name. We must live lives open, constantly turning toward the one who brightens our days even in the midst of sickness and death. To be repentant is to know that we are home with God, blessed, and renewed like a little child.
tom in ga
I would like to address the issue of individual versus community that has been discussed earlier this week. In the first paragraph below is a summary of a report on individual and group behavior with a chall
In summary, One Tom of Many said, “I've always read this passage in a personal sense (we each are the tree, we each must repent.) Now, to me it makes more sense to read it in a corporate sense (Israel is the tree, Israel as a nation must repent or die.) …Israel must repent or be destroyed by the Romans.” To which I respond, the connection between the community and the individual is stronger than some of realize. We do need to call our church as a community to respond to nourishment of Jesus, and we (individually and communally) must produce good fruit or we (individually and communally) will suffer judgment.
Leon in NC <><
