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Scripture Text (NRSV)

 

Luke 12:49-56

 

12:49 "I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

12:50 I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed!

12:51 Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!

12:52 From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three;

12:53 they will be divided: father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

12:54 He also said to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, you immediately say, 'It is going to rain'; and so it happens.

12:55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, 'There will be scorching heat'; and it happens.

12:56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?

 

Comments:

 

Today's gospel contains harsh words concerning the purifying and potentially divisive effects of God's call. People who follow the way of Christ often encounter hostility and rejection, even from those they love.


Untold numbers of viewers regularly turn to cable TV's Weather Channel for updates, feeding their insatiable interest in weather. With radar and satellites, frontal systems and weather maps, we have added scientific knowledge to the ability to interpret the appearance of earth and sky. Jesus doubtless had something different in mind when he addressed his remarks to the hypocrites in the crowd in today's gospel. Nonetheless, he wanted his hearers to know that a storm was brewing.

The stewing images of judgment and destruction--of nature and community out of joint--are still very disquieting and not easily interpreted. They are like an abstract painting whose power is apparent but whose meaning is elusive. Minnesota artist Luc Le Bon painted a picture suggestively called "Boundary Waters." The bottom four-fifths of this striking piece consists of alternating zones of streaked black and smoky white with small patches of green throughout. The uppermost zone is a contrasting strip of blood red punctuated with a mottled, hazy yellow disk, suggestive of a squashed sun on the horizon.

The painting, in spite of its title, eludes precise interpretation, very much like Jesus' jeremiad in today's passage. In Le Bon's painting it is not certain whether the sun is rising or setting. In Jesus' oracle one is not sure whether to cower in fear or seek space for hope in the midst of the storm. If in faith--not fear--one chooses the latter, it is essential to remember that no matter how great the disruption, the victory is ultimately God's. Whatever the shape and scope of judgment, we are obliged to remember that Jesus has destroyed death by his death. While we his people live in the midst of death, we also live in anticipation of new life. Those who have a weather eye would do well to keep it wide open for signs of God's judgment and promise during the present and the time to come.


please sign your comments. unsigned contributions look terribly arrogant and instead of being helpful irk me to no end! Franz


Where is the good news in this scripture? PH in OH


The good news is that justice is coming!

Too often we want to only dwell on God's mercy, and neglect God's justice. However, both of them are good news, because both of them are two sides of the same coin... the triumph of good over evil, the victory of God's goodness in a fallen, sinful world.

The good news is that if the world doesn't take the carrot, God still has the stick.

Jesus is not for wimps only.

Feeling strangely triumphalistic, Pastor Stinky


The Good News is that Jesus divides... at least some will get to live in a favorable light of the glory of God! It sad that some (undoubtedly some we know and maybe us if we aren't truely in love with the one true God), will be divided from those who God sees fit.


In an age of ecumenicalism promoting peace these words from the mouth of the Prince of Peace are like a clang of a steel lid. DRH in OZ


I just can't even discuss these passages. They don't sound like anything more than fear mongering at the hands of the early church. I frankly have serious doubts they are authentic words of Jesus.

Is this an attempt to call people to belief? If so, it fails miserably. Is this an invitation to the Christian life, with families falling apart at the seams and the Savior wishing fire was burning on the hillside? Fear never won a serious convert. It may win people who want to escape something bad, but it does not mean they want to stand on the side of good. It just means they don't want their feet burned.

Jesus saw himself as a reconciler, bringing the known renegade members of his Jewish family (tax collectors and other sinners) to the supper table. His disciples were certainly a group that might have done war with each other in other circumstances. He told us to pray for our enemies, and said nothing about converting God's enemies with any tool other than love. (the Let your light so shine thing. He told parables of fathers never ceasing to wait for their wayward sons, he refused to get involved in squabbles between brothers about inheritances, and restored children and brothers to their families, even after death. And now I'm supposed to tell my congregation that following Jesus is going to mean they may get separated out from their own families and fear is all around us? Not on your paraments I won't.

It does not implicitly say so, but we are left to assume that the division is between those who believe and those who don't, and where they will spend their eternities. If I do anything at all with this text it will be to speak to the dangers believing that YOU'RE the one who will be swept into heaven while the REST of THEM will be swept into hell. As the text for August 8 led me to quote in my sermon, "there are many who cry to me "Lord, Lord", but I will say, "I never knew you." God will be merciful to whomever he will be merciful, and we are likely in for a big surprise on just who that will be. Believe, yes, but assume nothing about where your disenfranchised brother will spend his eternity.

Whew. And all I was going to say was that I didn't want to preach on this intentionally scary text.

KHC


To whoever said oil is a moron, watch out. Either he's got a new set of names or he's been cloned. New names, same theme. He'll sneak up on you before you know he's there, unlike Jesus, who knocks.


It seems we have division on our own site about whether to approve, tolerate, or set flame to OIL. I'm in the tolerate school. OIL's postings don't "work" for me - I just scroll past - but maybe they "work" (i.e. speak a word from God) to somebody.

Karen Armstrong is right - religion is pragmatic. It provides comfort and challenge within its own setting, otherwise it's irrelevant. This is why certain images of God (king, warrior, shepherd) don't speak to us in the same way as others (parent, guide) because those latter images are more relevant to us.

But just as I wouldn't argue with someone who wanted to see God as shepherd, I wouldn't argue with OIL's postings. So what if it doesn't work for me? Maybe it will work for somebody, and bear some kind of HS fruit.

LF


LF and any others that find interest. My first reaction to your post reminds of an old poster I used to have depicting "Linus" of the Peanuts gang. The phrase used with it said "It does't matter what you believe, as long as you are sincere!" In my youth I thought that was truth. My how innocence can change to cynacism (I sometimes wonder if Bill Murray's "theology" in "Meatballs" is'nt the correct one "It just doesn't matter!"). While I do more often than not think it matters what one believes especially when they are sincere, I also do not believe in making it works righteousness! And especially think it is wrong to beat someone else over the head with it. What I believe matters to me but not necessarily to all others. These are tough scriptures, especially "lifted" out of the Gospel for a pericope. I like Luther's idea "Let scripture interpret scripture (and Jesus' words interpret Jesus?). On that note I too wonder not only how accurate these words of his are or speculate that Luke is stringing "pearls" here he has gathered about Jesus's sayings from different sources. So that leaves me with the problem "what to tell the folks?"

I like what you said about Karen Armstrong, have thought it myself but can't say I have found her books that "pragmatic" for me!! So what to do? Dig and dig hard, I would prefer pulling "good news" out of St. Luke's hat (if he has one)!

I hear in Jesus' words, Jesus acknowledging the "tension" of living and of being faithful (and maybe trying to figure out what the heck he is saying!).

As far as Oil goes, I don't get him/her. Not my style for sure. But I too just scroll past. Maybe some do the same my (growing number of) postings as well. "It just doesn't matter - but (maybe) it matters to me?"

OMG


True, they're harsh words ... and somewhat difficult to preach - especially considering I usually preach "unity" in Christ.

Still, haven't we all experienced divisions on behalf of the Gospel - or, our interpretations of the gospel?? My own family would like me to believe just like them, and in my heart of hearts, I believe they're wrong.

Last week, I touched on "orthopraxis" - (where your treassure is, there your heart will be). This week, maybe it's the opposite (where your heart is, there your treasure will be)??? This is "orthodoxy" - don't know how to interpret the present time, or believing the "right" thing will cause division in a household. Hmmmm.... well, it's a thought, anyow.

I hope I can tag along for the Bible study, but I won't be preaching this week.

And, please pray for us; the associate resigned and I couldn't talk her out of it. We did, however, part on good terms. I think she was just waaay hypersensitive.

Sally in GA


This could be a very thought provoking discussion this week. I figure we will come from very different places, some wanting to show how these words of Jesus must be taken at face value, and a positive message must be found. Others will refuse to use it, and can't see Jesus ever saying this. Then there will probably be those who will go just, "hmm."

You know, I can't wait for it to get started. Right now this is a place where God speaks to me. At some statements I say "hmm." At others I say, "huh." At others I angrily say HUH. At others I scroll past. And at others I yell, "YES"

I know I'm going to benefit greatly this week, even though I will again be preaching from the Hebrew lection.

shalom bammamma


My family's story. Read if you want or scroll down.

My mother's faith was the center of her existence. (raised Anglican, later Presbyterian) My father, the scientist, was not a believer. They were happily  married for 56 years. They raised 3 Presbyterian believers and one non-believer. One sister married a truly fundamental Southern Baptist Christian who believed there was only one way to interpret Scriptures. My brother switched from a strong Presbyterian to a strong Roman Catholic. One of his sons is Native, and preferred the religion of his birth family to his RCath upbringing. We were an interesting group around the dining room table. Religion never became an issue that divided, although it was certainly a topic of discussion. Jesus, God, doctrines, judgment, grace, eternity, you name it, we covered it. We listened, shared and came away with broader minds, if not changed ones. We remained stubbornly sitting where we thought truth could be found, whether that was with Jesus, without Jesus, with the Bible, without the Bible.

By the way, after my mother died, my father started thinking about God and Jesus in a new way. I can't say he's Christian now, but he's moved toward some idea of a Comforter and a need to look beyond what science can explain. I'm SOOOOOO pleased.

Still seeing if there's anything I want to deal with in this text before I jump ship.

KHC


ph in Oh

I think the good news as far as I can see is that Jesus did come, and Jesus gave a baptism of the water and spirit I don't know if that is enough to chew on though


To OMG: "It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you're sincere" is certainly NOT my philosophy. A cannibal may sincerely believe that other people are a food source. That matters! (forgive my ludicrous example)

Like Paul in Galatians, I look to what sort of "fruit" in thoughts and actions come from belief. I have no problem looking at love, peace, patience, etc. as the fruit of non-overtly-Christian belief, and finding those consistent with the Holy Spirit.

It's in this spirit (Spirit?) that I read other's postings and contribute my own. If the fruit they result in is consistent with the Spirit of Jesus Christ, if they produce good fruit in other people's lives, GREAT!

And it's possible that OIL does this for somebody. If the repeated and apparently random insertion of the word "love" into Scripture produces actual love, fine. For me, it mostly produces bewilderment and irritation. But I'm not willing to flame OIL, and I don't think anybody else should either, on the grounds that maybe his/her posting might produce some kind of HS fruit.

Said nothing about the text. Sorry.

LF


I don't know that taking Jesus's words at face value necessarily means you have to find a positive word. I think you can take Jesus's words at face value and come up with a negative word!

The gospel of the coming of the kingdom of God is a large and miraculous and wonderous things. However, even God sometimes cracks some eggs in order to make an omelet... and the cracking of eggs is a terrible thing. (especially if you're an egg!)

I suppose I still see good news (as a Christian, it's hard not to) in that it will all work out in the end. However, I think we can't be afraid to take Jesus at his word that sometimes things are gonna suck along the way.

And, yes, I know there is that critical school of thinking which says we can discard this because we don't like it, or because it's a mission statement ("I come..."). I think we do ourselves and others a disservice when we neglect the important hermeneutical tool of Sitz im Buch.

"Nobody told me there'd be days like these"... well, actually, Jesus told you there'd be plenty.

-- Pastor Stinky


Maybe the good news is that Jesus came to bring fire. Something that will ignite the people to action. Action often divides.

In our present time this is also good news since we need a bit of fire burning Spirit to ignited those in power to justice. Sounds like we must interpret the signs of the time. Walmart wages, new low paying jobs that then social services support, educational cutbacks etc. A bit of spouting off! Nancy-Wi


this was the text the first time i sat in church with my soon-to-be mother-in-law.

needless to say it was shocking to hear those words while sitting next to her.

i will be celebrating mary, mother of J this coming sunday so i don't know that i'll be around much this week. (guess we'll see how addicted i am to all of you.)

i will say this about the text.

it seems to me that J is talking about his approaching death when he mentions the fire that will be kindled. i can almost feel the tension in his words.

perhaps the key to understanding this text is in the word "interpret". i haven't done any study on the word, but my first reaction to this text is that people wanted answers to why things happened, to be able to predict things like the weather and such. and they had some talent in doing so.

but they didn't understand j's purpose and had trouble interpreting his actions and his teachings.

i would also suppose that families were horribly divided by this new faith that was being practiced in luke's time.

i remember reading the story of perpetua and felicity who were martyred for following "the way." perpetua's family begged and pleaded with her to change her beliefs and deny christ, but she wouldn't. she and her father would fight over this before she died and it caused a great stress in the family. perpetua had just had a child and felicity was pregnant while in jail. their story even mentions felicity's breasts leaking milk while she was taken to her death.

it is a painfully difficult text, but how we practice our faith, what we believe about God can be very divisive. the elca is feeling that right now with the dicussion on sexuality. and i know that in my own family there have been fights between a fundamentalist aunt and her husband and my parents over what is right and wrong to believe.

somebody said that they didn't want to preah about fear, but i don't think this text is about fear. i think it's more about honestly looking at what we might face in our faith personally and what our communities of faith have faced in our history.

i made the decision to celebrate mary before ever looking at this text. i suppose i'm glad i did.

and please leave oil alone. i just skip his/her posts because i found them dificult to read. i have no desire to get equally as frustrated by reading posts about how "crazy" s/he is. so please, just let it go.

God's peace, christine at the shore


We talk often about the great Fred Craddock, but I don't think we often follow his teachings, at least I don't. I pray that each reader remembers that as preachers we must "get into the scriptures" and try to determine what God is saying to us and what message that he has for us, before we "get OUT of the scriptures" and look at other sources such as commentaries and DPS forums. I pray that we all will remember to preach the message that God has given to us, and not the message that he has given to someone else.

Craddock Fan


Brace yourself. This post is not for the feint of heart.

If the Gospel is not causing division, then people are missing the point.

The Word of the Lord is a piercing sword that causes division. The challenge is to leave the "things" and perpetrators of this world's system behind and follow Christ.

Most liberal and boderline liberal churches are going to face this division head on in the coming decade when they have to decide what to do about gay people who want to stop "living in sin" and get married.

I see this as a "cloud rising" and a "wind blowing" that is going to bring rain (tears perhaps?) and fire (tempers flaring?).

This fire is a refiner's fire, drawing away the impurities. Will you be drawn to the fire and be destroyed like a moth or will you be purified and made like gold? (Have I just re-invented purgatory?)

Is a church that bends to fallen human culture worth preserving? What will remain of the church that I have been a part of? Will it split along generational lines (like the reading above says)?

I am not ashamed of being right and being the only one who is right. I was open for suggestions a while ago (and some days my faith/light is pretty dim) but I look to the faith fo the martyrs who gave their life for the defense of true truth and I find hope.

Someone may die for a lie and not know it is a lie, but I don't think people will die for a lie that they know to be a lie.

As far as Linus' quote goes...

I may sincerely believe I have the right of way and step out in front of an oncoming car. The car may actually be going the wrong way on a one way street but I'll still be right. Dead right.

Maybe I'll be dead right on the homo-matrimony issue.

~~SDG (See, I told you it would be inflamatory!)
 


Hi everyone. I gratefully read postings on this forum faithfully every week. Although, in the last four years this is only my third posting. Usually this is because I'm madly reading on Saturday night--at which time posting is pretty much futile! ;~)

Anyways, this week I'm finally ahead of the game, and could not resist the temptation to post my two cents, so, here it goes...

I am wondering if there might be a connection made between this passage in Luke and the pericope from Hebrews 12.

The great witnesses listed in Hebrews 12 were all Old testament figures. Their challenge as it relates to my life in the twenty-first century seems remote. The passage in Luke at first glance, seems also remote as it speaks of division over beliefs, which in this day and age seems trivial when everyone is "right" to beleive whatever they want to believe.

All that being said, by my second read I began to get something different. To me, the challenge that Jesus gives in this passage to live out what we beleive. This appears to be echoed later in Hebrews--just that the challenge is given in a different way by the writer. What I began to discern wAs that I may not be as up to the chaallange as easily as I first thought!

Pursuant to the perfection of their faith in Jewish thought at the time, Jewish believers sought to emulate the great heroes of their faith through their perfection in following the Law of Moses. However, Jesus is calling them (us) to a perfection of faith not through attempting to fulfill God's Law on our own power, but by going beyond belief, into actually living it out as the heroes of the faith did; as He was living out in front of them (hence his reference to "interpreting the present")

So often in the Old Testament stories there are examples of mother-in-law against daughter-in-law; etc., folks like Jospeh (of techni-color dream coat fame) and Jacob, Issac and Moses, ones for whom living out their faith put them "against" members of their family. This did not necessarily mean they were against one another as "us" versus "them." Rather, the stories explain how each person went their own way (whatever was "right" for them). Following God, however, they are able to pursue their God given goals with their God given gifts; thus, following God and pursuing relationship with Him then brings about various outcomes: opportunities of faith; coping; courage; battle; hardship; and, reconciliation. No particular story is right or wrong they are presented almost as case studies into people pursuing their faith--what we get out of them is what we put into them as we read them.

Similarily, in Luke, Jesus does not say that families being set three against two or two against three is either bad or good, nor does He explicitly speak of the outcome of such divisions--He is simply saying it is inevitable that the living out of one's faith is going to result in division.

I beleive that His illustration of discussing the weather, yet not being able to interpret what is going on in the present could be just as easily presented by discussing modern day control of the television remote:

Who in your household gets to hold the remote; who gets to watch what at a given time slot? How many tv's have been purchased to avoid the fighting? So, now here's the kicker---how is it that we can so ably figure out who gets to watch what when; but when the dust settles we still haven't been able to figure out how to reconcile with each other and watch tv together?

Jesus is saying that personal beliefs, whether about weather, or faith will divide. Fact, but not end of story: The question remains, are we prepared for it? The people listed in Hebrews were great not because of what they did or because of their reward; rather, they were great because of their cause, "why they did what they did." I believe that this is the challenge to which Jesus is also calling us--why do we do what we do and is it worth the division? It better be, for we are dealing here not with the frivolous matters of tv remotes or the weather, but of things eternal and our relationship with God.

I refer you to consider a challenge from Rick Warren's book, "The Purpose Driven life," and ask you to think now in terms of eternity. For instance, in the big picture of life, and beyond, does it really matter whether or not tonight that I get to watch the final episode of friends re-run because I missed it last time? Is that really worth fighting for and dividing my household one against the other--over a tv show?

Conversely, in the bigger picture of eternity, does it matter that I am able to lobby my government to not support or support same-sex marriages or lobby the schools to allow Christian prayers to be once again prayed by students?

What fights are we choosing and which are worth fighting? To me this is what makes these passages relevant to me--for certainly in society today fighting is all the rage (pun intended). Over much pettier things do we pit one household member against the other--why would we be "uncomfortable" hearing Jesus saying that belief might do the same? Why would division because of beliefs be any worse than what we are already divided up about within our households--which , come to think of it brings me back to the same quesation: which is more worth the effort, time and energy?

More over, what is also different about how Jesus talks of this divison amongst a household, is that Jesus does not judge these divisons in and of themselves. That's our twenty-first century eyes reading something into the text which isn't there. Rather it is the cause of the divisons "amongst the ranks" as it were to which He is calling judgment. Jesus is not saying that the divisions are good or bad neither does He suggest which side is right or wrong.

What Jesus is saying, is that He is passionate about what He beleives, He knows we are passionate about what we believe. He is prepared to surf a wave of division--what he is asking of us is if we are prepared to catch that same wave also and "grip ten" with Him!

Pastor in BC, Canada, eh! (wow, you stuck with me right to the end! I'm pleased, honoured and privileged--thanks)

PS thanks for all the posts--many a Sunday has been helped because of your thought provoking postings--hope mine can be of use to someone out there too!


RevGilmer in Texarkana:

Your sister in law will be in good hands at "Big Baylor" as we call it around here. They have wonderful doctors and resources and they know about the power of prayer there! :) I have added her to my prayer list. (I don't post here often but I do glean so much from reading the posts. Thank you everyone! :) )

Vaya Con Dios! Rev.TA in TX


I, too, will be following the texts for "Mary, Mother of our Lord," however, the divisions of this text do not bother me. I see the warnings much the same as the divisions of the denominations of Chirst's Church here on earth. The American Baptists are divided from the Southern Baptists, the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans from the Missouri Synod Lutherans from the Free Lutherans from the Evangelical Lutherans. The Old Catholic from the Roman Catholic from the Episcopal from the Church of England. Would the UMC be divided from those disunited? What a ruckus it proves to be in a family when the new baby is baptized the "wrong" way, or dedicated instead!

Some are so "on fire" for the way they believe things to be that it has to be the only way. Strong faith is not necessarily 100% right, but I trust God to be merciful, even to those who have resorted to the juvenile practice of name-calling on this site. We do not need to fan the flames of division by such practices.

We can, however, try to speak the truth in love, realizing that God has not promised complete revelation to anyone this side of eternity.

Michelle

PS: Please sign posts, even if you use a nickname to maintain anonymity.


Hi--I've just returned to the pulpit after a sabbatical year during which I read for a MA in peace studies. I see this passage as speaking very clearly to our times. I am surprised by any poll results that show greater certainty than a 45%/55% split. Our president was not 'elected', half the population approves/disapproves of the war. There is little collaboration, cooperation, or even rational discussion. You are for us or against us and we will not listen to your side. The courses I took in peace studies and conflict resolution were very political but I wrote most of my papers from a theological point of view. Jesus is the Prince of Peace and peace is very divisive. Peace is boring and we crave extreme excitement. War is the ultimate excitement. Chris Hedges says that soldiers and war correspondents become addicted to the thrill and adrenaline rush of war. I think that the public does too. There is no adrenalline rush to negotiating peace. And so, the challenge is to make peace--and Christianity--exciting and attracive in ways that offer more that a rush, an inner and outer calm that takes us beyond the highs of drugs--both natural and artificial--to a spiritual high that very few experience. We cannot avoid the division that Jesus brings untill we can teach our children that the highs of violence, excitement, money, and drugs, are nothing compared to the peace, joy and love that Christ exemplifies. And yes, the great cloud of witnesses are further examples that following God's call is not boring, but is not violent thrills. Peace Pastor in NY


in response to the good news. In the Lutheran terms "law" sometimes has to be given with very little grace.....my problem is being that itis the summer in talking the hard stuff you are "preaching to the choir" the ones who need to hear the heavy handed message are staying away (becasue they know they need to hear it) In my little mind the grace is always that it is Jesus delivering the news. When he is present there is the reminder of God's amazing grace. On one more note I have had this sermon brewing in my head about "hypocrites" how many times have we heard that "I don't go to church anymore the people there are hypocrites" I might do that one God bless Pastor Keg


John Dominic Crossan discusses this attack on the family in his book, "Jesus A Revolutionary Biography" pages 58-60. The axis of separation, John writes is located between the generations. The attack on the family has do with power, not faith. John writes, "The attack is on the Mediterranean family's axis of power, which sets father and mother over son, daughter, and daughter-in-law....the family is society in miniature...it is not just a center of domestic serenity; since it involves power, it invites the abuse of power, and it is at that precise point that Jesus attacks it. His ideal group is, contrary to Mediterranean and indeed most human familial reality,an open one equally accessible to all under God. " Canadian Lurker Lady (no longer lurking!)


As I have said earlier, I will be using the Hebrew lection on "So great a cloud of witnesses" My title is "Substantive faith".

In regard to this Lukan passage, I am interested in the original words of Jesus. Research has found the saying came from the "Q" document. There appears to me to be two sayings; one describing division in family and the other on the predicting the weather vis a vis, interpreting acturally daily happening.

Luke has used this in his description of Jesus on the way to Jerusalem and his instructions to the followers along the way. Matthew used these words in instructions to the Twelve Disciples in Chapter 10. Only the saying about "brother against brother" is used in Mark's gsopel. The sayings are also found in the non canon "Gospel of Thomas"

This Sunday I want to share with the congregation I'm visiting with this sermon, a description of Substantive Faith. This saying of Jesus seems to indicate an important ingredient of faith with Substance, it must come from "doing the will of the One who sent Jesus, and that means a separation from earthly deemed relatives. It is not so necessary that the division brings war, but perhaps a healthy respect for the differences. The more I connect with my Savior, the more I grow to respect all relatives, no matter who they are.

Shalom, bammamma


This is a very tough passage, as most of you have pointed out. It scares me and discomforts me. But, isn't that part of what the Gospel is supposed to do?

I have not decided, completely, how to approach the issue of division that Jesus discusses. We could easily explain it away by saying this passage is nothing more than an editor's addition to prove some political point. I would be more inclined to believe such if we were reading the parallel passage in Matthew 10:34-36. Matthew continues the discussion. For Matthew, it's a matter of whom the disciple loves more, Jesus or _______.

My eye is drawn to verses 54-56 regarding seeing the signs of the times. Someone above noted that Jesus changes the conversation to discerning the weather. Jesus points out that on our own we predict the weather, which is fickle and easily misread. But, we cannot see the work of God, nor interpret the present age/kingdom of God.

See, I told you I don't know how I'm approaching this passage. It is extremely difficult.

Steve in NC


Pastor Keg,

My pastor says that people tell him often that they don't come to church because there are too many hypocrties. He says his response is, "Well, we can always use one more."

~~PC in GA


More hard sayings from Jesus! One way to deal with this is to reinterpret all this stuff with the OIL framework, "Jesus didn't really say what he was saying; it was all about love." The other way was wrestling with it as the first century disciple did, "This is tough teaching, who can swallow it?" (Jn.6:60)

It is interesting to see Jesus himself understood the difficulty of his mission, "I came to bring fire to the earth, I have a baptism to undertake; this is stressing me out!" (v.49-50)

He knew that not everything will be rosy; that the gospel will divide people of the earth (as it unites the citizen of heaven). That it will cut deep into the family structure (even though not too deep, notice that Jesus didn't say anything about husband against wife, and Paul later on wrote about the whole sanctification if one of them started with the Gospel).

And Jesus concluded that this division was just a sign of things to come (v.54-56).

There are times for us to properly separate against the things around us. Sometimes we over preach the message of incarnation, of identifying with the world and forget the other side of the gospel; that we should not be like the world, but be apart from the world as well; be apart to point to the coming day of Jesus.

In the context of the looking-forward to return of the Master in the surrounding passages, the separation should be understood as a sign of his coming. Sadly, seldom can we point to ourselves and say, "We came from the world, but we are moving away from the world." We are willing to compromise, not only to keep peace in the family, but even to keep peace with the world. Instead of separate from the world, we divide among ourselves (because we are so much like the world).

Yesterday, I sat quietly in the board meeting at our church. Two prominent board members were at each other throat, fighting against meaningless details. The truth is they did not disagree over the details, but they have been holding grudges against one another. So the details were just an excuse for them to went at each other with vengance, digging up trash and throw at each other as they went along. I sat there quietly, head in hands, silently grieve as I pray and wait for our senior pastor to settle the matter.

We didn't separate from the world too much, we came to church offices with baggages of pride, of self-preservation, of driven-personality. We didn't separate from the world too much, and that's why we divided among ourselves.

It is interesting to see Jesus use the image of fire. Fire consumes everything. And as everything burned up, they are united in the firery flame. Fire clearly divided the world into the consumables and unconsumables. A consumable object will eventually lose its identity as it was consumed by fire. Are we consumable? Am I willing to let my identity being consume by the fire as I separate out from the world?

Oh Lord God, consume us with your fire, let us be different than the usual world's standard. Let us be separate from the world so that we will not be divisive among ourselves. Let us be separate from the world so that we will not be separate from You.

Coho, Midway City.


As an outside observer reading your posts - it seems that the Gospel does indeed cause divisions!

Some dispense with the word, some claim it and aim it at others... Some force it into their political 'lens'.

Some treat it with serious comtemplation...

I vote for the later - if anyone cares...

Jim Dennis Main St UMC Greenwood SC


Date: 8/9/2004
Time: 9:51:50 AM
 

Comments

I find it interesting thatI found what, Jim Dennis Main St UMC Greenwood SC, had to say. I immediately thought yes I do care that he is reading what those of us who answered a call to ordained ministry are writing. I'm wondering whether it is just an interest, or is Jesus calling Jim. Just a thought from one who has a specific call in her retirement to those entering ministry.

Shalom bammamma


Comments Untold numbers of viewers regularly turn to cable TV's Weather Channel for updates, feeding their insatiable interest in weather. With radar and satellites, frontal systems and weather maps, we have added scientific knowledge to the ability to interpret the appearance of earth and sky. Jesus doubtless had something different in mind when he addressed his remarks to the hypocrites in the crowd in today's gospel. Nonetheless, he wanted his hearers to know that a storm was brewing.

The stewing images of judgment and destruction--of nature and community out of joint--are still very disquieting and not easily interpreted. They are like an abstract painting whose power is apparent but whose meaning is elusive. Minnesota artist Luc Le Bon painted a picture suggestively called "Boundary Waters." The bottom four-fifths of this striking piece consists of alternating zones of streaked black and smoky white with small patches of green throughout. The uppermost zone is a contrasting strip of blood red punctuated with a mottled, hazy yellow disk, suggestive of a squashed sun on the horizon.

The painting, in spite of its title, eludes precise interpretation, very much like Jesus' jeremiad in today's passage. In Le Bon's painting it is not certain whether the sun is rising or setting. In Jesus' oracle one is not sure whether to cower in fear or seek space for hope in the midst of the storm. If in faith--not fear--one chooses the latter, it is essential to remember that no matter how great the disruption, the victory is ultimately God's. Whatever the shape and scope of judgment, we are obliged to remember that Jesus has destroyed death by his death. While we his people live in the midst of death, we also live in anticipation of new life. Those who have a weather eye would do well to keep it wide open for signs of God's judgment and promise during the present and the time to come.


Peace Pastor:

Thank you for your comments! The way I've seen it play out (I'm thinking of one woman in particular in our congregation, but I know there are others) is a kind of "root, root, root for the home team," or "Rah rah rah, Sis boom Bah - gooooo USA!" This woman went so far as to put (on the day we went to war) American flags on either side of her car, much the way fans of college football teams do. It's as if there isn't some effort to recognize the tragedy of war ... and instead, find a "cause" to get behind.

I also recall an old boyfriend (I was dating him at the time John Lennon was killed and the radio played a lot of his music) saying, in reference to the song, "Imagine," ... "A world like that would be boring and have no purpose!"

It's pretty sad that we have to declare war to entertain ourselves.

Sally in GA


I love quilts. I know very little about piecing them, but the women in one of the churches at my first appointment taught me the "quilting" part of it - and from there I've become increasingly interested in quilts.

There are regional and demographical discrepencies in this folk art - and there is a group of women in Alabama in a bend in a river that still make what is known in the quilting world as "ugly quilts," quilts made quickly from old trousers. They were used for things like horse blankets and floor coverings - to be trampled underfoot - and are now found to be pearls of great price because they represent a very specific quilting from a very specific group. Consider Amish quilts, or the African American quilts - each have their own style. Some of the early Americans' quilts are batted (the stuffing int he middle) with old newspapers - and the Western pioneers made quilts out of that cheap silk cigar ribbons. They saved and hoarded until there was enough for a quilt - and they got together in a "bee" and quilted, or just spent years on the project by themselves.

It represents the refusal of the human spirit to be kept "down," and the ingenuity of women (though there were some famous men quilters, too) to make a little bit of goods as useful as it coule be.

It also represents how "divisions" can co-exist. Calicoes against solids against stripes ... arranged to look like a unique piece of art. Each one is a new opportunity to make a new creation.

Why else would women even care what pattern an "ugly quilt" was in? If it really were meant to be truly "ugly." Each folk artist ended up asserting her own creativity in each quilt.

But, hey, nowadays you can buy quilt tops with the pattern printed right on. Somehow, it's just not the same.

Within unity there is often a great deal of division.

Sally in GA


we have moved from slaves and masters to houses that are divided, and by the looks of the surrounding content, the divisions will continue, in this portion of the text atleast...

i would also rather preach on the unity brought about by the presence of Jesus the Christ, but it is hard to find it sometimes. however, it raises, along with the hairs on the back of my neck, a number of observations...

what was happening with this oh so merry band of disciples as they meandered along together?

jesus, by this time, had sure been booted out of several towns for his obvious choice of company and words...

i just finished the first night of a series on Christ and culture (appropriately named, Pop goes the Savior), a few of the things we covered...

we are called to be transformers of the culture (with God help), this does not always bode well for unity, we talked about what it meant to be the lone prophet in the wilderness that everyone thinks is a little off of their rocker, and we wondered if there were times when they felt called to be this prophet...

i am reminded of H. Richard Niebuhr's statement, "Though they accept their station in society with its duties in obedience to their Lord, they do not seek to modify Jesus Christ's sharp judgment of the world and all its ways." (Christ and Culture, p.90)

the counter-cultural way of Jesus the Christ was divisive because of its focus on unity...

grace and peace, niebuhrian in VA


In an episode of The Simpsons, Mr. Burns floats around in a chemically-induced state repeating, "I bring you peace... I bring you love..." And isn't that just the kind of Jesus some of us are looking for? A happy presence who floats around saying "I bring you peace, I bring you love"? This one adds, "I bring you division and a sword." Oh. Crud.

I try to console myself with the idea that division is the by-product, not the purpose, of Jesus' coming. Commitment always produces division. There will always be external opposition to Jesus and his followers, and internal argument about who he is and what he does. I identify this as an existential observation by Jesus, not a goal. The Bible is realistic about "the way things are."

Still squinting hard to see the grace in this text...

LF


The non-Christians would either be Jews who intended to remain Jews, or Romans who had the multi-god system (or even all-god, which is what the Pantheon is all about, right?)

I guess if you believed you were Abraham's child by birthright it would an amazing shock to the family that you would give that up to follow an itinerate rabbi away from the family of faith. There have been cases where Jewish families have declared a Jewish child *dead* if he or she leaves the faith. They have a funeral and everything. Those times may be in the past, but it's not that much gone that I don't recall it happening.

A friend of mine decided she could not be Christian any longer because her heart wasn't in Jesus. She converted to Judaism and is finding what she needs there. Her parents are OK with it, but some Christian friends abandoned her. It works both ways - moving toward Jesus or abandoning Jesus, both leave people in your dust.

Corn Country


Oh, and then there's the guy in my church who was so intent on his relationship to Christ that he forgot to pay any attention at all to his wife and children. He and she are now legally divided. He's also divided from his job because he forgot to go to it very often because he was thinking about his relationship to Jesus morning, noon and night. Yep, Jesus can divide.

 


Niebuhrian in VA,

I have been thinking about the issue of "Christ and Culture" much lately. My seminary professor told us that Richard Niebuhr stated the five basic positions: "Christ Against Culture", "Christ of Culture", "Christ Above Culture", "Christ and Culture in Paradox", and "Christ the Transformer of Culture". He told us that half a century ago, his denomination the Presbyterians embraced the last position; but now in the assessment of many, it was a failure (in transforming the culture). So today, my professor continued, there is a new thinking about some sort of a "paralelling culture", where the church would be a counter-culture community as opposed to the world, and therefore would become the witness to the world.

What do you think?

(If this become ditracting to the overall study of the text, perhaps we can take it offline, but for now, I think the issue is still relevant to the text...)

Coho, Midway City.


Random thoughts,

First, KHC, if you can't preach on this, ask yourself why?

Second, I am using this one and Isiah. Actually, I think this passage is so appropriate, who knew the "lectionary" would make sense when whoever orders the passages in that 3 year way, would work. We are DIVIDED here in the states... And a nation divided cannot stand. Something prophetic came to me this week. What we are experiencing is WAY WORSE that 1860-1865!!! IT WON'T be IRaq, Saddam, Afcan, BIn Laden, Terroist, Bush,Kerry, etc who will destroy us...It will be OUR DIVISION! John Wesley is a UNITY pusher...I agree...Unity in all things!

We are divided Republicans hate the Democrats. and vice versa...Bush needs to go is the Liberal Consensus.

I am not either...I am Biblical...I agree with Dr. Andrew Park Professor at United Seminary and author of the the book The Wounded Heart of God. Christians need to be the watchdogs on both parties.

Now, one really can't be independent in the USA, no third party makes it. and Ralph Nador LOL! Most of us if we admit it chose the party we belong to because of Family History, or State affliation, or rebelling against family.

I have made a new party name---Republicrat or Demicon... I think I will be one of those!

Even Pat Robertson, moral moajority guy, said that there are christian democrats...LOL I am christian, and render unto BUSH what is Bush's or Kerry's.

Now, Caligula, existed when Jesus was leaving earth and earth church was beginning...God could have taken him out, but He didnt cause THE CHURCH needed to be about more important business then politics! Keep that in mind!

Clerically Blonde in west ohio


Coho-

thank you for your response, it proposes an interesting addition to Niebuhr's original five categories. As a Presbyterian myself, I am not sure how much we have truly stuck with the "transforming" idea/category/way of life as a denomination, but the idea of paralleling is intriguing...

i am curious about the idea, and wonder how it (paralleling) would differ from other categories because it would have to steer clear of rejection (against culture) and accomodation (of culture) which are the two polemic places that i fear we tread most often today...

i would be interested in hearing more (whether here or elsewhere) about your professor's ideas...

i was strolling around the church building and ruminating on this unity and division thing, and I remembered...

"i am a uniter not a divider"

this over-used under practiced statement is often thrown around by political canidates, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes as fluff, but when reality hits, division is more likely to happen than unity...

i continue to look for grace in this passage as well (thanks for reminding me LF)... i think the hardest part of looking for it is that i always look for the community/communal/relationship aspect of Jesus' words and here there is little to hang on to, save that my community is better than your community (nyah, nyah)

this is becoming longer than it needs to be...

i wonder how stressful it was for Jesus the Christ to see his words and life bring division instead of unity to the very humanity he had such compassion for... these words carried an angry/outrage tone when i first read them... i wonder if anyone else felt that...

niebuhrian in va


To unsigned poster,

I don't beleive God tells anyone to move out of a marriage to "find themselves" of become closer to God. What you spouse is doing is blaming God to quell any objections-remember that Adam ultimately blames God (it was the woman YOU gave me).

You have a tough road to travel, but it's not God's fault. In fact, he'll be your companion for the journey and so will we.

Pr.del in Ia

The gospel inevitably brings on conflict -- with those of other faiths; with those of little or no faith; with those of our own faith who forget Jesus' admonitions to "turn the other cheek" or to "be on guard against all kinds of greed"(v.15) or who put loyalty to family or country before loyalty to God; with members of our own family who place a different value on service to the kingdom, the importance of worship, use of time and talents in war against poverty and hunger, etc. We even face conflict with ourselves as we struggle to remain free of hate against a politician whose policies we oppose, a misguided terrorist, or one who has wronged us somehow.

But is there good news here? I think it's certainly good news to parents of children who have either lost their faith or committed an act clearly out of keeping with the way of Christ who come to us and ask, "We brought him/her in the faith, taught him/her to love the Lord. What did we do wrong?" The answer is: "You didn't do anything wrong. Jesus predicted this. As he faced disappointment and opposition, so will we who are his followers." Might it even be that experiencing conflict when adopting the way of Christ in a certain situation is an assurance that we being faithful? Paul in MN


To the person who wrote “this past week my husband moved out”, I immediately started praying for you! I started praying that Christ’s will be done in you and your family’s life. My situation is the same (but different) so I’m identifying with you.

One pericope we haven’t mentioned while discussing this statement of Jesus, it is the one where Jesus was approached by his disciples and told that his mother, brothers and sisters were outside. Jesus reply was “who is my mother brothers and sisters. Those that do the will of the One who sent me.

One more thing to the anonymous poster: My hope and prayer is that you will not follow anyone else's directions (including mine) accept the One that God sent.

bammamma


Early thoughts (I can't believe how many precede me! It's only Monday) I think I hear not anger but anguish in Jesus' words. It isn't that division SHOULD come or that God wants it so, but Jesus recognizes it WILL come. As he wept over Jerusalem for their past treatment of prophets, so he weeps for the division which will follow because he brings Truth and Justice. Some will accept the new relationship God offers and some will deny it. Families will be rent and God's heart broken again. Jesus is under stress because he knows the inevitable result of his coming. He also knows the eternal result, so he wishes it were already started. Sounds harsh, but perhaps there is hope there too. Still ruminating where to go with it. It's ONLY monday! tom in TN(USA) p.s. thanx to those who commented kindly on my epistle post last week. God is good!


tom in TN

i like the sense of anguish, i think that fist better than anger or outrage, though i can see a little of each in the statement. but anguish fits what i sense very well, thank you...

i guess, going back to what LF wrote...

how does one find grace in the midst of anguish???

niebuhrian in va


Peace Pastor et all. I love this site, funny how when Jesus gets on a soap box all us preacher types want to as well. Any body got an axe to grind, this is the sunday!!! Our boss man did it once in a while maybe we should too!

In the lutheran church I just say it is our punishment for not taking Mary more seriously. Look what we get instead &^$#*#@!

O BTW Peace Pastor you said, "War is the ultimate excitement. Chris Hedges says that soldiers and war correspondents become addicted to the thrill and adrenaline rush of war."

Who the heck is Chris Hedges? and y'all are probably much smarter than me, but for 20 years I served as a Chaplain in the U.S. Army. Soldiers who became addicted to the thrill and adrenaline rush of war were soldiers we did our best find other employment.

War sux! pardon my french, whoops another touchy subject, War sux, ask a soldier. Why do we call the greatest generation the greatest generation? Because they went off on an adrenaline junkie high of worldly preportions? No because war sux, but they went for us. This is lay down your life for friends stuff, (rememeber the words of Jesus?)

OK I'm down now, soapboxes are lonely places.

Proud (yeah I know that is sinful) to be a VFW, proud to have served, proud of my (rather unpopular)political party.

Trying to find the love of Jesus shining through this difficult passage.

PBOB is SC


I have preached on this text at least five times. One way is to concentrate of the first verse. "I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! talk about the restorative power of fire. (Yellowstone is in good shape now from the fires that we thought would destroy it.) Some tree seeds need that fire to burn off their "protective" coatings! you get the drift

God's fire is meant to purify! or

using this verse, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed!

When forest fires loom close to houses what do people do? dump water, lots of water on everthing they own. Hey guess what because Jesus owns us he has dumped water on us Baptism (hey it even works for lightly watered christians like me)

Because we are wet with God's love the fires won't get us!!!

wasserman


Clerically Blonde,

I believe I did address why I can't preach on this with any degree of conviction.

KHC


OH, OH, OH, want to and an evangelical flair. JC was pretty hyped up, perhaps we should be to that we might dump water on as many folk as we can before the storm comes! 'could even tie this in with how folks go nuts getting ready for really bad weather!

Hypocrites, why not have same zeal for saving (baptizing) people!!!

woman in mission


I'm watching the news as I peruse the posts and I find it quite ironic that during commercial times, an ad for a candidate was about marriage. The candidate suggests we look at the first book of the Bible - and he says that "marriage is for companionship, procreation, and to show Jesus' love to the world."

Uh ... Since when is Jesus' love by way of marriage mentioned in Genesis? Or anywhere else, for that matter?

Now the division is extending to biblical eisegesis.

Sally in GA


One last thought ... and then I'll quit:

Why is it when we FACE opposition, we automatically think we're "unpopular" or "dissed" or being antagonized? I'm only guessing PBOB's unpopular political party, but I'd venture to say that it's pretty popular in some arenas not here.

I liked your post, PBOB, and it's the point I was trying to make about my distaste for "Rah rah rah, sis boom bah" rooting for our victory in war. Real people are losing real lives and real loved ones grieve for them.

Sally in gA - for the first time, I think, part of a "popular" political party. Feels good for a change; I've gotten a lot of flack for being a Dem. - from my family to the people in the communities I serve. Now, I guess I made it to the popular group - whew! and it only took me 42 years. (I hope you hear me chuckling because I intend this good naturedly)


A few random reflections from a first-time visitor:

The Cross is the hammer of God that shatters injustice, oppression, and self-concern -- but it's a hammer that comes down on His Son.

If love is real and final, then it's really sin that:

1. divides families 2. mandates judgment 3. requires atonement

From Michael Hoy (crossings.org): "The truth is that Jesus' new trail to the cross was not to create more divisions, but to heal a very deep division--between ourselves and God."

ILLUS: Sailors can now check real-time, animated weather satellite images on the web. No need to check the forecast anymore -- you can see it for yourself.

ILLUS: Forest fires are fought by two methods: backfires & tons of water (you take it from there).

Thanks for all prior postings. With prayers for the one whose husband left her...your eternal Husband will "...never fail or forsake you." Rev. 21 gives a wonderful picture of exactly that.

-- Sunset Watcher in Watch Hill, RI


wasserman

I loved the way your post dealing with fire and baptism related to your name, if that name comes from the German, literally, water man!

Michelle


Michelle

Ya, das ist richtig, my church is currently emphasizing baptism. Not that it is new, M. Luther was quoted as saying, "When you wash your face, remember your baptism." and I have the refrigerator magnet to prove it! My sign, if you go for such is Aquarius, so I figured, for a worthy site such as DPS why not wasserman for a handle (CB Lingo.) After all isn't baptism where we get our identity?

Back to the passage, perhaps Jesus is being somewhat harsh, but I think it is because he knows that his audience knows what is right, yet chooses instead to ignore the coming kingdom to stay in their current comfortable situation. Gee, some good homilitician could sure draw some parallels there!

We must remember with difficult passages that Jesus didn't give up or condem his audience, rather he loved them so much he died for them instead.

Peace, Wasserman.


Sally in GA, you said, "Real people are losing real lives and real loved ones grieve for them." Amen to that, we've removed four names from our prayer list of deployed persons (in the cause of freedom) one could argue with the parenthetical phrase, but we choose to honor their service. Two were removed because they came home at the end of their deployment. Two were removed because they hopefully went to their heavenly home.

Its hard, I've been there before, with the families, and thought retirement from military service would spare me the anguish of ministry to combat casuality families, but alas, our sinful world will not relent in inflicting pain.

As far as this Jesus quote and Luke are concerned, I will probably try to focus on how we possibly upset Jesus by knowing what we should do but fail to do. Sins of omission if you will or even commsission even when we know it is wrong. Like kids sometimes do to test parents, or even with a mean streak. Ain't going to be easy, but the struggle usually makes for a better message.

Here is to strugling!!

PBOB in SC


Well, I asked early on what the good news is in this passage. A church member and I talked about it this morning. The good news is that God gives us a choice. We can choose Jesus and be purified by fire, such as impurities are removed from gold by fire; or we can not choose Jesus and be in the eternal fire, which as someone has said on this site consumes everything. What do you think? PH in OH


Sally in GA

Haven't seen that commerical yet. Obviously uninformed commerical writer. I wonder who proofs the copy? Perhaps someone should call that political party's national number and let them know that they are way off base. For the good of the party, of course.

Just as an aside Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, good or bad. His main message was about love and unity. It seems odd to say that in view of this weeks' text!

I am trying to decide whether to preach about unity/disunity, division in ECUSA. Or I might go with the "run with preseverance the race" using Olympic imagery. The focus/energy it takes to be a world class athlete and the focus it takes to be a world class christian.

Early musings

Nancy HB


A wise person once told me the best time to remember your baptism is int eh shower not only for the water but becasue you are buck naked as you were when you entered the world, and Jesus loves you even with the flab, potbelly and moles Blessings Pastor Keg


Clerically Blonde:

I wouldn't say I share your political position ... or usually your theological position (at least as it appears on this site -- I know we're all more complex than just this site could show...) -- but I DO have a word for you!

When I was in high school (lo these many years :~) ), a somewhat wacky fringe politician came to our social studies class. He referred to himself as an "Elephadonk" ... drawing on the traditional Elephant/donkey imagery for the GOP/Dems.

:~) Squeeze


just checking in a even gladder that i'm preahing mary this week.

surprised by how many divisions are mentioned by us. politically, our understanding of the sexuality issue, war, patriotism, etc... and yet here we are all together, for what it's worth.

loved sally's image of the quilt. wrote a funeral sermon for my g-mom about God's love being like a quilt (she was an avid quilter and i inherited most of her unfinished work). so many different pieces put together don't just make art but create warmth and comfort.

sometimes there has to be division first, to find unity (with the exception perhaps of our unsigned friend whose husband is... well, i shouldn't post that word. my heart goes out to you and you are in my prayers. may you find blessings even in this painful time.)

God's peace all... and anyone who has any good stuff on mary, mother let me know

christine at the shore


PBOB,

Thanks for the insight from a REAL veteran.

~~PC in GA


Why is there no father-in-law mentioned in verse 53 above? Do they get along better with people?

Why doesn't the son (who is married) have his own house? Why isn't the daughter married and moved out?

I got along better with my mother in law that with my own mom some times. They are both gone now and I miss them dearly.

My family has been pretty unified with their spiritual life (almost all were liturgical protestants of some flavor). When I became a Baptist, I drew sharper divisions but I've mellowed some.

I leave you with this parting thought:

Atheists don't recognize the existence of God.

Unitarians don't recognize the existence of the trinity.

Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

~~Peachy Preacher (Errare Humanum Est)


Nancy HB - Y'know, I was so shocked at the MESSAGE that I didn't even catch the candidate's name. Of course, I was only half-listening because I was here, too.

I think you're right, and it seems it would be easy enough to do. I really don't care to support that particular party, but I care deeply about correct representation of Scripture!!!

Sally


This text, especially in light of its preceding parable and explanation about preparedness (vs. 35-48), indicates that the people whom Jesus encountered were unprepared for him and his mission. The sharpness of Jesus' rhetoric, however, indicates that the problem is more than being unprepared. The people really did not want to be prepared for anything new—that is, they preferred the status quo of chronological living. Keeping the status quo means keeping to a minimum anything that disrupts (like divisions—and there is lots of division-talk in Jesus' words) is to "manage" conflict. Thus, "managing" conflict is often controlling conflict so as not to let it get out of control. Where would the world be otherwise?

Jesus calls the crowds "hypocrites" (v. 56)—which has the connotation of being "less-than-critical." The truth is that there is a crisis before them, and they are unable to recognize its signs. While they may be able to make small-talk on the weather (vs. 54-55), they are unable to recognize the new wind and flaming fire that has come on the scene in the presence of Jesus. Their spirits have been effectively snuffed out by their longing to avoid crisis, to maintain the status quo.

That behavior and unfaith, however, does not dissuade the approaching crisis. A crisis is not simply between human beings—it is divine in its significance. God is the one who is causing the stir, and the ramifications for the people (then and there, here and now) is that none of them will be able to bear the heat of God's passionate wrath in the crisis that is before them. Jesus does step aside from that crisis, but places himself into the midst of it—for us and for our benefit. To face the fiery wrath of God is to be refined—and for Jesus the price for refining is death. That is the baptism of Jesus. But Jesus' "stress" for its "completion" is for our benefit (v. 50)! Jesus wants to see us through the crisis and have our lives preserved through the process of refining. Through his own passion and death, Jesus gives himself to provide for our safe passage. Our own baptisms, joined with his death and resurrection, brings us through the refining and into new life.

What kindles our hearts anew in faith is to have the assurance that we are, indeed, kindred. The new judgment that rests on our lives is not critical, but promising. That frees us, of course, to accept the criticism; but it also empowers us to live beyond it. Our status is redefined, and we are not left in the "state in which" we were, but now live with a new hope of a homeland "whither" we are going—from status quo to status quod!

As rejuvenated beings, we begin to blaze new trails. The truth is that Jesus' new trail to the cross was not to create more divisions, but to heal a very deep division—between ourselves and God. Our new trails with our Lord will surely lead us into conflict (even in the struggle within ourselves—that struggle is itself a sign of faith!). But our mission, like our Lord's, is to bring his peace to bear on the world, living kairologically (explosively) in the present time. Where would the world be otherwise?!

Michael Hoy


Michael Hoy says " Jesus calls the crowds "hypocrites" (v. 56)—which has the connotation of being "less-than-critical."

The term hypocrite comes from the Greek hypokrites, meaning actor. A synonym is Pharasaical, which I find interesting.

Corn Country


I don't really see negatives in the passage. I think of it in parenting terms. Most of the time when we are raising our children, we gently guide them along as the grow and learn, but... once in awhile, we have to raise our voices and be more stern (for a multitude of reasons) and then put up with "you're mean...or...I hate you...or...Jeremy's dad is nicer than you." We do this because we love them and want to keep them from straying too far.

To the anonymous poster: I, too, will be praying for you. I've been in the same boat and am currently helping (I think) someone from church whose husband just left her and four teenagers so he can sow wild oats.

To christine at the shore: I am assuming that you are using Luke 1:39-56. I see the Song of Mary as her personal testimony to being reborn. Would that view be helpful to you? S†eve (Oregon)


Collegues in Christ:

As a Canadian, I have a different view on the American Invasion of Iraq than either the republicans or the democrats. This is where I think the gospel reaches out and touches our global village.

The way to justice and peace does not resonate well with the weak heared or weak kneed. It reaches out to embrace those who are deemed to be unembraceable in our midst.

A couple of years ago business interests in one locality petitioned Toronto, Ontario city council to close a church run hostel because the inhabitants were bad for business and driving the tourists away. These poor marganlized men who suffer from the health issues of poverty and alcoholism, drug dependency and and mental health issues were invisible to the business community who only wanted to see the rich tourists.

Likewise, the collabaration between the Bin Laden and Bush Families has been well documented. Most of the world views the Iraq invasion as more of an oil grab rathen than a blow for terrorism. (Arguments could be made for the invasion being an end to a mad despot, however they never entered the public debate prior to the invasion) It is also true that some good might come out of aforesaid invasion.

However this gospel lesson calls on the christian family to embrace the Bin Ladens of this world in a hug of peace that injustices done to them and theirs might also be rectified.

I realize proclaiming that Bin Laden needs to be understood in love would be contentious in Canada never mind the USA. Such procalmation would also bring division in my own household and family. However if is true for these bigger issues think how much more divisive the smaller issues that we feel we can understand might be.

While a shark can bite a chunk of cow and kill it, thousands of black flies in North Eastern Alberta can kill a cow as well with their many tiny bites. The call is for solidarity within the body of Christ calling us to realize the status quo is the way of death.

I wonder what would have happened if the Evangelican Lutheran Church in America, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (my ordaining body) and the Lutheran Churches in the middle east and Africa banded together and said enough, It is time for peace and worked together for that reality.

What would have happened if the Lutherans in Europe and The Americas banded together during WWII and said enough.

Son will rise up against father and their will be division, for a while and then there will be peace. This is the good news proclaimed in this passage

A Candian Lurker


Date: 8/10/2004
Time: 11:01:07 AM
 

Comments

Canadian Lurker, What would a cow be doing swimming in the shark infested waters of an ocean? It's the flies you need to watch out for, the little common everyday bitings and botherings that build up to make us all mad cows. metaphors be wit you, magi in the middle


Date: 8/10/2004
Time: 11:11:24 AM
 

Comments

magi in the middle, I call all those little nips from all around "being stoned to death with popcorn"

KHC


Date: 8/10/2004
Time: 11:25:01 AM
 

Comments

Dear Canadian Lurker did you leave out the Missouri synod on purpose smiles....Pastor Keg


After all the sniping over politics I wonder if any of us are in any way saved. I include myself in that because even if I did not jump into the fray with keyboard in hand I have thought some very divisive things.

Grace, peace, and division, Mike in Sunshine (holding my own tongue on many things this week)


In the spirit of division begun by the Reformers:

August 15 is the feast day that celebrates the idea that Mary was taken to heaven without tasting death or that her body was taken into heaven shortly after her daeth....thus the Assumption of Mary.

There are lots of other words used in Roman Catholoicism that don't mean what people think.

The virgin birth refers to the miracle that Mary's hymen was preserved through childbirth and she remained a virgin throughout her life.

The immaculate conception is the idea that Mary was conceived without sin and preserved from sin so that she would not pass the sin nature on to Jesus.

I am uncomfortable when services focus on Mary and not the fruit of her womb. Just the reformer in me.

~~Peachy Preacher


I know the lectionary reading stops at verse 56, but I am considering continuing the reading through the end of the chapter. Jesus talks about being quickly reconciled. I wonder if that could be the hope and the good news? What do you think?


I know that the lectionary reading ends with verse 56, but I am considering continuing through the end of the chapter. Jesus talks about making peace quickly. Could that be the good news? What do you think?

Bill


~~Peachy Preacher writes: "I am uncomfortable when services focus on Mary and not the fruit of her womb. Just the reformer in me."

I think the purpose in the Lutheran Church is not to venerate Mary, but to hold her up as an example and to speak of how we can be Christ bearers to the world.

Pr.del in Ia


The saying is still there, “Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword”. I came not to bring peace but a sword, to be used to accurately divide us.

I comprehend this as a hard saying for us to hear because Jesus words must correspond to our own faith, and our way(s) of salvation, whether that way is conservative thinking, democratic ways, orthodox methods, systematic progress, processed theology, or any other ideology. I suspect we think that if every body would think the same way as us, then everything would be perfect.

But I’m beginning to think Jesus didn’t want us to think alike. “Jesus loves me” is an admission of all those who know Him, no matter how different they are. His kingdom as shown Him by his relationship with “Abba,’’ included difference and diverse persons. All are willing to do the will of the One who sent Jesus. In this Jesus family, each would have their own place. Each uniquely made for the continued creativity of the Universe, whether divided in two ages, or “world without end”

All the persons who followed Jesus were uniquely different, and included rich, poor, male, female, Jew and Gentile. Within the Scriptures we have Jesus’ encounter with all of these, from Anna the Prophetess to Zachariah the tax collector.

I trust this Jesus, and I am willing to be divided by Christ’ sword. As an example, my daughter in law is as unique and separate from me as Jesus described in this Q saying. Every time I visit with my granddaughters I say, “Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

Shalom

Bammamma


According to the Scriptures, Mary was present at all of the important events in her Son's life: in the birth cycle, at the first miracle at Cana, at the cross, at the tomb, with the apostles after the ascension waiting for the Spirit. Except for traditions, nothing is known of her parentage or the place or date of her death. August 15 has been observed since early times as the day of what the Eastern church calls her "falling asleep," i.e. her death. Luther retained a special affection for Mary and wrote a splendid exposition of the Magnificat. The other days on the calendar associated with Mary--The Presentation of Our Lord, The Annunciation of Our Lord, The Visitation--are festivals of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful to the last, Mary has been important to Christian devotion throughout history because in her, the God-bearer, is seen a representation of the church itself. Mary's song (the Magnificat) is the gospel for the festival of Mary, Mother of Our Lord. It is a powerful statement of justice, still apt for us today as we come with our own neediness to experience God's justice and mercy in word and sacrament.


Bill:

One of the most powerful sermons I heard had the pericope stop at a point prior to the grace-full resolution. It was about King Darius' night of insomnia after being lured into sentencing Daniel to the Lion's Den. The refrain she (the preacher) used was the sattraps' and presidents' comment to Darius when he expressed remorse: "Know, O King, the law of the Medes and the Persians cannot be changed." It was about his bad decision, and his realizing it, and how we all have those nights.

Likewise, don't we all face sometimes painful divisions as a result of our beliefs? Sometimes it can be a powerful thing to allow ourselves not just to examine the rough stuff, but to link it to life. Think of it in the Baby-boomer generation terms: Before the songwriter wrote the song, "Teach Your Chidlren Well," there was very real and painful division among families - mostly over the Vietnam war.

While it's true that the ultimate word is that of grace, it's sometimes also good to acknowledge the conflict that occurs before grace is pronounced.

Sally in GA


Jesus does not call us to division, but rather into unity. Problems come when we value our own opinion over our relationship. How many of us believe it is more important to be right than to value a relationship. The division in this scripture comes when some people choose Christ and others do not. PH in OH


In thinking about the unsigned statement made about persons making choices, and being either in or out, and excluding Jesus from the process, if based Scripturally I suppose it would be either Matthew 25:31 "separating the sheep and the goats," or John 10:16, "other sheep in another fold".

I start with a conclusion that humanity is God's creation with grace properties. In all of God's sheepfold, there is sheep/goat possibilities, and with the pruning comes new creation. I rather not excuse my own inadequacies by scapegoating other vineyards or folds.

Shalom bammamma


Pr. del,

I believe mother Mary is to be regarded as highest of all women. I'm glad Lutherans do spend time talking about her. My Baptist brothers and sisters only talk about her briefly at Christmas and it is their loss.

The key is as you say, "veneration." I don't pray to or through her. I am thankful that she was obedient and willing to bring Jesus into the world under such unusual circumstances.

~~Peachy Preacher (looking for my Lutheran Rosary)


I'm not preaching this Sunday (I'm part time in a small church, and the congregation shares the burden and joy of preaching) ... but was discussing this passage today w/ the person who *is* preaching. One thing we struck upon is the fact that division is not necessarily a terrible thing. In our congregation ... there's very little of it. I serve a blessedly liberal-minded open and affirming radically inclusive congregation, which is right up my alley. The only group we don't include (whether willfully or just by accident of geography and demographics ...) is conservatives. I don't want to change the basic justice-loving culture of my congregation, but I do think that one area of growth would be for us to include some folks who don't necessarily think like we do....

just some thoughts...

~Squeeze


bammamma and others~ your last post prompted me to remembering this text.

Then Simeon blessed them and said to his mother Mary, "This child is destined for the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be opposed so that the inner thoughts of many will be revealed - and a sword will pierce your own soul too." Luke 2:34-35

these words of simeon seem a connection to the text assigned for this week; a fulfillment of his prophecy. i came not to bring peace, but a sword, a tool to divide people from other people and people from their own selves. if you take the idea of a sword literally, it's purpose is to cut a person... severe them.

i don't know if this is helpful to any of you; but for me as i continue to think about mary's place in the history of our faith it struck a cord.

being a xtian is not an easy thing. it means that we have to trust in things that are unseen, do things which might be against our nature to do (and vice-versa), etc.

it must have been difficult for mary to agree to this thing that God wanted her to do, difficult to raise the son of God (how do you discipline God's son?), difficult to stand at the cross of her child. what division she must have experienced, and yet she was willing to be God's handmaiden.

"Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Luke 1:38

willingness. are we willing to follow even when storms hit and divisions occur?

God's peace (even in all it's division) christine at the shore


Division and conflict are not conditions that we set out to create, but they happen nonetheless. They happen because of actions rather than inaction. I’m thinking of pursuing this theme of action/conflict as follow-on to last week’s theme of readiness. God is acting in the world, and division happens. When we are open to the presence of God and act ourselves in a ways that live out the kingdom of God, division happens (sometimes in our families or our churches). Unity is often like the thin crust over a lava flow, sometimes its hard enough and cool enough to walk on, but there is fire just beneath the surface, it may only melt the soles of your shoes, or it may crack and you’ll be lucky to get away just a little toasted. I am an intermittent seminarian (I’ll finish one day, I promise) and I relish the preaching opportunities that come my way. I often get hard lessons like this one

MM in Sachse Tx


bammamma, christine, and PH in OH ...

you all are *hot* this week! Good discussion. Thank you for stretching my growth.

Sally in GA


Dear Posters Who Are Beating Up Oil -

I have trouble trusting a conversation in which people not only discount a fellow poster's views, but actively discourage him or her from continuing in the conversation.

Remember. Whenever we think Jesus is in our little circle, we will soon find Christ speaking and acting with the the ones I think are outsiders!!

Keep on greasing the squeeky wheels, Oil, whether I agree with you or not.

--Ponderin' Pastor in WI


Pastor in BC, Canada,

Thank you for you kind words. It was a real struggle to stay out of politics and other such things and get the gist of what I believe Jesus is getting at. I am again no expert.

I have over the last year developed a two pronged approach to invitations. It was not original to me. I simply felt ill at ease assuming all were non-believers or all were believers. So I began to end each sermon with an invitation to both. You can easily open it up for Christians at any point along the journey to take the next step.

Unfortunately, I take the full text into the pulpit with me. I try to have my text by Thursday so I can have some time to work on the delivery and make some eye contact without being a slave to the page. I am not as animated as many would like for me to be but then again it is hard to please everyone.

Thanks again for your consideration!

Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine


To Mike in Sunshine:

I too used to preach a full text; but one windy day day early in my ministry my notes got away, (really, it did happen!) and from then on, while I do write out my sermons, I now deliver them with no notes at all.

That being said, I do, however, find an archived hard copy to look at later, especially using the lectionary, is quite helpful every three years.

So...were you able to take some time to look at what I wrote? Please, tell me what you thought, both the good (if there is any) and the bad.

Pastor in BC, Canada, eh!


*sigh* I wasn't going to post on this, but I'm in agreement with another DPS-er (from a previous post this week) that the anti-oil posts are even more aggravating than their source. It creates a negativity that I simply don't need. The fact that many of them are unsigned speaks of someone who wants to slam someone else in anonymity. It does nothing to build and only creates division (isn't that what this text is about) and animostiy and a generally negative tone. Please stop, for all our sakes.

Sally in GA


Pastor Buzz from TN has written a reflection on Isa iah 5 that was quite helpful in understanding Isaiah's prophesy concerning Yahweh's vinyards bringing forth wild grapes that he calls "Kudzu Christianity." I like the description, and see it as a possibility of the false divisions (I see Jesus "sword" as positive) that I hear many of my fellow dps'ers describing. I find his post, enlightening. Shalom

bammamma


Keg: Regarding "all those hypocrites in church", my response has been, "at least there is a place for us we can call home." Those who would rather worship on the golf course or in the fishing boat need to hear that while God may be doing a very creative thing in nature, the saving event is accomplished through word and sacrament. Jesus absolutely promises to meet us in scripture and in sacrament. That you can count on. Should Jesus Christ contact you personally to invite you to lunch down on the corner at 12:00 noon on Tuesday, it would behoove you to be down at the corner cafe at noon on Tuesday. Jesus does command just that--only the time is more likely to be Sunday morning. Take, eat, this is my body given for you. Take, drink, this is my blood. This cup is the new covenant in my blood shed for you and for all people for the forgiveness of sin. DO THIS for the remembrance of me. Jesus comes to us with grace and forgiveness in word, sacrament, sermon and hymn not to mention in the support and encouragement of our fellow Christians. My question back--Is there a place on earth where we can find a gathering of non-hypocrites? Is there anybody out there who is not a hypocrite? Yee-gads, what hypocrites! SS in MN.


I don't need to come to a church to be with Jesus. I can read the word on my own.

I don't need a priest/pastor to say any hocus pocus over the bread and wine to make it contain or become anything more than bread and wine.

I don't need organ music with archaic language set to disjointed "artsy fartsy" melodies to lead me in worship and praise. Just because it's old doesn't make it good.

I also don't need electric guitars and keyboards and drums. Making it louder doesn't make it better.

I don't need projectors, lights and cameras and microphones to hear God's word. It's hard to see the light when lights are all you see.

I do not need pledge envelopes shoved in my face by the pushy stewardship committee.

Having said all that,

I do want friends who challenge my opinions in love and which makes us both stronger for it. I do not want to forsake our assembly as some have done.

For this reason, I meet at a place where other people of a similar mind gather one or more times a week to lift each other up in prayer and sing spiritual songs to God. We do remember what Jesus did and commemorate it with bread and wine. No mumbo jumbo. We are all part of a royal priesthood. Apostolic succession is plot to keep power in the hands of the clergy.

~~a Generation "W" person

sola gratia

sola fide

sola scriptura


Pastor in BC,

When I first started preaching I just read and pondered. It wasn't that I believed it was the spiritual thing to do, it was just I was not very organized and writing a sermon each week even if I didn't use it seemed overwhelming. Then I went to prison. Okay, I was a chaplain and got to go home each night so it is not as dramatic as it sounds. But I did very little preaching there so I didn't have to prepare as I would each week.

When it became evident that my position would be cut I knew I was headed back into the preaching ministry. I was very much convicted to raise the level of my sermon preparation. When I got located it was as if there wasn't a choice from God on the matter. It took some getting used too, but now I don't know why anyone would have set through one of my previous sermons. I preach from more texts and utilize more angles than I even dreamed possible before.

I am in a situation now where I think even though my "style" of delivery isn't what is desired it will have good effect in the long run. Preachers have aparently just got up to speak with little preparation before. In fact that was one of the big complaints to me. My two congregations were left biblically hungry and bereft in Wesleyan theology. Having a text that is put on my pastoral web page has proven to be useful on many fronts for several reasons.

My sermons are both comforting and confrontational. And the record I leave behind by posting each sermon for the world to see serves as a testimony for or against me. I have been accused of being a heretic, a liberal and other unfriendly names when in reality I am one of the most orthodox Wesleyans in my district in Western North Carolina.

I have no room to brag about what I do. There are many better preachers and pastors than me. I simply believe God put me here for a reason and that my work is going to help at least one church to grow.

The wonderful thing that is going on now is that we have a group meeting in both churches and we are taking for discussion one of John Wesley's sermons per week. People are coming alive to what Wesley intended for his church. They are saying even through the 18th century language the spirit of his preaching is relevant.

I invite you to visit my pastoral homepage if you would like to see more of my sermons or other resources I keep there for all to see.

Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine


sally, i get the feeling that you and i would be great friends if we weren't geographically challenged. and not just because you say such nice things about me.

God's peace, christine at the shore


My oh my, I came to this site only recently and now I am addicted!

I made a posting early this week and couldnt come back until now! Yikes! It took me forever to read through all the postings, great postings too! Very helpful except for one..... Christine at the Shore...Yes you! For you reminded me that I too was using the Mary text and not the Luke/Jesus/divide us into little groups...... I so enjoyed all the postings on the Luke?Jesus texts that I began to wish I was preaching on them but then began to panic and wish there was a site for discussion on the Mary text... Thank you and God bless you that you all posted your (divided) opinions on that and her!! Enough to get me thinking enough to begin to formulate a sermon..Thanxs all again!

But Just a few general comments. I would chime in with others, please sign your posts with something and not just a bomb dropping anonymous cut.

I find it interesting how many luterans are on this site for I too am partial to martin.

To a Canandian Lurker...what the heck are you talking about? injustice to Bin Laden???

If all the Lutherans in the ELCA, CLC, LWF and even the LCMS banded together and said much of anything the rest of the world would yawn at best and more likely ignore us as they do already. As a transformer of culture as the Presbyterians have said, the church is irrelevant and especially toothless. And sharks and cows? hmmm

Ok enough said, have I caused any divisions yet?

OMG


First - I apologize for that post; I waaaay overreacted and even read into W's post that which wasn't there. It just happened to stir up a conversation I had not long ago about the difficulty with marriages today being due to the church not teaching the submission of women. I apologize for linking up "W" to that.

Second - I want to give Tammy a hug and say welcome back .... so, here's a cyber-hug (((((Tammy)))))

christine - *smile* thanks! I've enjoyed your posts. E-mail me at Revsallyo@aol.com

Sally in GA


To be honest, I believe Oil's posts have improved, no longer sounding like he is ranting and raving, but honestly improving. I believe he (and yes, OIL is a he) will continue to use his own nickname "OIL," because he is not ashamed of the gospel. His style may have been (be?) offensive to many of us, but he has listened to us as well, no longer posting so very many times in a day, etc. I hope we can work to nourish one another in the gospel, rather than try to shove people out with name-calling and angst.

(And no, not everyone who uses the phrase "in love" should automatically be assumed to be our brother OIL.)

Michelle


For those doing "Mary, Mother of our Lord," you may find helpful the words to a hymn (especially the last verse) as follows:

At the cross, her station keeping, // Stood the mournful mother weeping, // Close to Jesus to the last. // Through her heart, his sorrow sharing, // All his bitter anguish bearing, // Now at length the sword had passed.

Oh, how sad and sore distress-ed // Was that mother highly bless-ed // Of the sole-begotten one! // Oh, the depth of her affliction // As she saw the crucifixion // Of her dying, glorious Son.

Who, on Christ’s dear mother gazing, // Pierced by anguish so amazing, // Born of woman, would not weep? // Who, on Christ’s dear mother thinking, // Such a cup of sorrow drinking, // Would not share her sorrows deep?

For his people’s sin chastis-ed, // She beheld her Son despis-ed, // Scourged, and crowned with thorns entwined; // Saw him then from judgment taken, // And in death by all forsaken, // Till his spirit he resigned.

Jesus, may her deep devotion // Stir in me the same emotion, // Source of love, redeemer true. // Let me thus, fresh ardor gaining // And a purer love attaining, // Consecrate my life to you.

Michelle