Scripture Text (NRSV)
18:33 Then Pilate entered the headquarters again, summoned Jesus, and
asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?"
18:34 Jesus answered, "Do you ask this on your own, or did others tell
you about me?"
18:35 Pilate replied, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the
chief priests have handed you over to me. What have you done?"
18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not from this world. If my
kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep
me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not
from here."
18:37 Pilate asked him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say
that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the
world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth
listens to my voice."
Comments:
We seem to be having baptisms every other Sunday. Three on 9 November,
two more on the 23rd, then maybe one on the 14th of December. I preach
about baptism, but when the lections have a strong seasonal theme, I
feel pulled in another direction. How to tie in baptism with this
passage? kbc in sc
Gee KB, nice place to be with all those baptisms, eh? Not like some
other places you and I have served is it?
I might do something with citizenship in the kingdom, since that is
one of the the themes for this day. I could see tying baptism in with
that as an outward sign of that citizenship (as well as a sign of an
inward and spiritual working). Baptism as a sign of citizenship as a
drivers license and voter registration card are for the secular state.
THis sign, however, is is more thatn a license it is an invitation to
be in ministry in the name of the King.
JJ in Rock Pile (formerly JJ in Chas)
OFF TOPIC: An observation from 25 years in the pulpit. I was a bit
overwhelmed by the number of baptisms I was doing - 2 or 3 Sundays a
month sometimes - and so i established quaarterly Sundays when i do
baptisms. It accomplishes a few things. It keps the service fresh. It
also gives me the opportunity to meet with several couples at once to
speak with them about baptism and church membership responsibilities
and they became small fellowship times. Just a thought on the journey
with you folks. Bill
Pilate asks Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" and Jesus answers
with a question (as usual). But Jesus usually doesn't ask a question
to get information. He asks questions to change the flow of our
thoughts. When Jesus asks, "Do you ask this on your own, or did others
tell you about me?" he is inviting Pilate to consider who is directing
his actions. Is Pilate in charge of himself, or is he really serving
someone else?
By his answer Pilate confesses that he is no king. He serves the will
of the Chief Priests.
Everybody has a king, something that rules his or her heart. Even
Jesus. The Garden of Gethsemane makes clear that Jesus does not want
to die on the cross, but something is higher than his will. Pilate is
ruled by political expediency. Jesus is ruled by truth.
SS in PA
SS in PA I love your thoughts. It begs the question, what drives us?
What are we ruled by? There has been some dissention in our
congregation of late over who spends what money. Who is accountable to
who. I have been saddened to see the way some faithfuls have been
operating: what are we ruled by? What is the voice in our head that
drives us? Jesus is ruled by truth. But also servanthood. I love it,
thank you. SJ.
Remember what Pilate says after verse 37...
"What is truth?"
It's all about perceptions. Pilate thought of kings as earthly rulers,
maybe rivals to his somewhat pitiful position as governor. Who knows,
maybe he was thinking about another Jewish uprising, such as that of
Judas Maccabaeus some 200 years previously. New King, renewed zealous
attitude?? Anyway, I'm certain he had some fear in his heart about
this claim about Jesus. I don'tsee it as a taunting question, but a
question that was really begging for an answer so he would be 'up to
speed'. Jesus proceeds to tell him he has no army waiting in the wings
for a hostile takeover.
In earlier weeks, we had Jesus upturning the perceptions of others on
the issues of women, poverty, children, charity, and even the Temple.
This week he tries to change perceptions about true Kingship and his
role in the world.
Jesus is a threat, all right, but only to those who stand ready to
hold onto their position, power, and possessions instead of yielding
to God.
Just the earliest musings on this text. I know there is a whole lot
more here than this.
KyHoosierCat
hmmm. I wonder if Jesus' followers knew why they weren't fighting to
keep Jesus handed over to the Jews! It seems to me that the reasons
the disciples did not "fight" were more due to their fear than a
divine purpose. It causes me to reflect on God's behind the scenes
work in our world to bring about His purposes, and how what seems to
be our motivation may not always be the case. loril in Montana
hmmm. I wonder if Jesus' followers knew why they weren't fighting to
keep Jesus handed over to the Jews! It seems to me that the reasons
the disciples did not "fight" were more due to their fear than a
divine purpose. It causes me to reflect on God's behind the scenes
work in our world to bring about His purposes, and how what seems to
be our motivation may not always be the case. loril in Montana
This encounter reminds me of French I in high school. The teacher
would ask a question, "Q'est ce que c'est?" "What is this?" and we
would respond, "C'est un stylo," "this is a pen," or "C'est un
crayon," this is a pencil. Then she'd hold up, say, a box and ask, in
French of course, "Is this a key?" and she'd pretend to be all mixed
up and say, "Oh, I'm so confused."
Pilate is pretty confused, too, it seems. Why would the King of the
JEws be taken to a governor? It seems he's got some inkling that
something pretty underhanded is going on here and that he's being used
and he can't quite figure out what it is. It's like those times when
there's this HUGE red flag waving right in front of your face and you
don't really know for sure what it's about. Like, he doesn't trust
Jesus to begin with, and he further doesn't trust the Jewis nation -
"why aren't you being tried by your own people? Why are you getting me
involved?"
I like the thought that we all serve a King of some sort.
Sally in GA
Whenever I read this chapter now I think of Frederick Buechner's
description of Pilate in "Telling the Truth" as a modern politician
sitting behind a big desk taking a "long drag on his cigarette and
asking through narrowed eyes, 'What is truth'. I wish I had written
it. jw in tx
One of the main purposes of the Gospel of John is to lead people into
a decision about Jesus - to follow or not follow, to believe or not
believe.
How does this conversation between Jesus and Pilate fit with this
purpose? Could Jesus be hinting to Pilate that there is a peaceable
Kingdom without armies and hierarchies that is available to him, and
that Jesus, this decidedly un-military man, is the head of it?
Pilate does not seem to me to be a man of much conviction of any sort.
He's just kind of a lost soul, bobbing along wherever others take him.
Could Jesus be giving him something solid to hold onto? But it's
Pilate's decision to not accept the invitation to be a part of this
Kingdom that is not a part of this crazy, hate-filled, confusing, and
difficult world?
It would be just like our Jesus to invite the least obvious to come
and live in his peaceable Kingdom.
Pilate, the imperial governor of Judea, tries to get at the truth
about Jesus, but only on one level. He needs to know who Jesus is in
terms of the powers and authorities of this world. The truth that
motivates Jesus is of a different sort entirely. In a gospel that
begins with the time before time, Jesus claims his eternal role as a
testimony to the truth. Christ is, was, and always will be not just a
king, but "ruler of the kings of earth," to use the title from
Revelation.
In John's gospel, the story of Jesus and Pilate presents two different
ways of exercising power: through force or with love.
"Who is this king of glory?" What kind of king; what kind of glory? It
is a glory and kingship revealed on a cross. It is a life revealed in
service. This title, "king" sits on Christ's head uncomfortably like a
crown of thorns, and so our imaginations are stirred. His actions and
words mess with our tidy definitions. Even though we no longer like
kings and queens in our public life except as quaint relics of other
nations, we do want someone with power and might.
But this Jesus will not play our game in which we determine how and
where that power is exercised. He speaks of power in weakness,
strength in loss, and life in giving it away. Yet we also long for
that time, foreshadowed in the night visions, when he shall come and
all creation will serve him.
On this day, we proclaim the assurance that one who is Alpha and Omega
also is the one who weeps at the tomb of Lazarus and who bids us come
unto him as children to whom the dominion of God belongs. On this day,
we proclaim his truth that the first shall be last and the last first.
On this day, we claim that in the midst of all the transitory powers
and principalities of this earth, this one is steadfast and true in
the giving of God's mercy and forgiveness.
Despite the claims of the world, this day is a shout to all that true
power belongs to God. On this day we give witness to our trust that
God's power has been offered on behalf of the powerless and the
vulnerable. This day is a confession and a claim that God is
fashioning a new kingdom where all peoples and nations and languages
will be as one.
Erik Strand
We proclaim Christ our king as he goes to the throne of the cross. We
acclaim him our ruler as he sheds his blood. We acknowledge him as our
Lord as he gives himself to us in bread and cup. Christ is our king as
he reigns from the tree, sharing our fears and experiencing our
frailties. In the reign of God, the powerful one does not intimidate
the weak, but cares for them. In the reign of God, the person of
authority does not use others, but seeks them out and crowns them with
mercy.
Here in the United States, we know about kings and queens in other
countries -- but they are not the rulers we answer to, because they
are not our king or our queen. There is a distinction in knowing about
Jesus as a king of some other kingdom, and knowing Jesus as our king.
Do we live in the kingdom Jesus brings, or are we content just to know
about it while continuing to live in our little kingdoms?
OLAS
Has anyone seen "The Matrix," where Neo Anderson is given the choice
of taking the Red Pill or the Blue Pill. The Red Pill takes you to the
Real World. In Baptism, in saying Yes to Christ The King, we take our
place in the Real World. We are giving the option of taking the Red
Pill and accepting the one who is "the way, the truth, and the light,"
or taking the Blue Pill and denying the way, the truth and the light.
PastorBuzz in TN
Thank you Erik Strand for quoting from the really good preaching
resourse "Texts for Preaching." Now, I wonder what you are thinking
about the text. Any original thoughts....?
I am struggling with the text for the fact that, yes it is Christ the
King Sunday, but at the same time, it is the heart of our Stewarship
and Thanksgiving time. How to tie this story of Jesus in conversation
with Pilate in to stewardship and being thankful? Any ideas?
I am thinking: Jesus does come and offer us an alternative to the
traditional ways of the world and the world's truths. Jesus comes in
order that the real truth may be revealed. He has died in order that
the false illusions may be distroyed....
Old RSV said "kingship" rather than "kingdom", I suppose trying to
imply that the rule of Jesus here on earth is not a a defined area or
territory. Greek does not make any distinction, but Jesus seems to be
saying to Pilate that he does not have to worry about a takeover. The
Romans ruled by force, and were always concerned about challenges to
their authority. Jesus was not a challenge to that, because his
concept of kingship was different. This is one more place where Jesus
changes the way we look at life and the world.
In Iraq the concern is about who is in charge, and what their
motivation is. In 1991 Iraq wanted to add Kuiwait (sp?) to the area
they ruled (and exploited) All of those little countries around Bosnia
and Croatia, etc, etc, all want to rule over others, but don't want
anyone ruling over them. All of history is like that.
The kingship of Jesus is an opportunity (not a requirement) to sign on
for a new way of life and a new way of living, now and in the world to
come. Jesus does not force himself upon anyone, but he offers himself
to all who will come to him. Paul talked about being citizens of
another realm and only ambassadors here.
These are comforting promises, when we know that earthly kingdoms just
can't provide all we need, and often are even counter productive to
our real needs. We can move from one earthly realm to another, but we
can not avoid them all together, however, we can live life in a
different attitude and midset, because we are chidlren of the true
king and members of his kingdom forever.
JRW in OH
I'm weaving together the 2 Sam, Rev and Jn texts and following on a
rather basic theme. thanks to SS in PA for the "serving a king" theme!
Everyone serves a king in their lives; yet (bringing in 2 Sam) the one
who rules over us is not always just, ruling in the fear of God (and
even when he,she,it,they are, the waters get muddied over questions
like "what is just?" & "what is truth?").
Christ's coronation anthem was a bloodthirsty chorus of jeers and
derisive laughter - when I read Rev. 1:7, "every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him ..." WE are the ones piercing him, jeering
him. Yet, this is not to be overly dramatic; most of us don't
literally hammer nails, but choose, rather, to live our lives as part
of the gullible masses - a mob mentality. Likewise, our laughter will
turn to wails (Rev.)
Yet, "Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to (Jesus') voice." (Jn
18:37c) - and that is the hope, the Good News! Not the "Guilty News"
but the Gospel - that acknowledging Christ as King will align us
(justify) with his Will.
For MY congregation, I'll probably explore the concept that it's not
enough to "KNOW" that Jesus is King. Knowing that Jesus is king keeps
relationship with him at arm's length. Doesn't demand a commitment or
any dramatic change.
Hope that makes SOME sense ... it's somewhat disjointed yet. Working
Title: "Who Is Your King?"
Sally in GA
Thinking about Christ the king Sunday and wondering myself what it
really means for our lives I am remembering something I read a few
years ago (but unfortunately cannot remember the author). He was
making the point that so many Christians accept the fact that Jesus is
the savior of the world, but are willing to serve him as Lord. Just an
idea!
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
correction:
Many Christians accept that Jesus is the savior of the world, but few
are willing to serve him as Lord.
I am curious...Jesus says "I came to testify to the truth." What,
exactly, is the truth to which He refers. I assume we have many
different assumptions here! Is this truth not the main point of this
lesson? But, we do well to see who/what the truth is.
I am curious...Jesus says "I came to testify to the truth." What,
exactly, is the truth to which He refers. I assume we have many
different assumptions here! Is this truth not the main point of this
lesson? But, we do well to see who/what the truth is.
I have to admit that I really have had difficulty with this text over
the years. The American concept of King seems to contribute to the
preservation of the distaste for kingship that was essentially part of
the reason for the American Revolution, and, yes, our current images
of Kings and Queens are, as one has said, that of relics from the past
in distant lands. I know Jesus as Savior, as my Advocagte before the
Father, as God Incarnate, as Master, as Lord, and as Friend, but
frankly seldom do I think of Him as King. Obviously, I should. I know
no royals, but I do know THE Royal One. Even if I did know royals and
something of their realms, these would all pale in significance before
Him and His Kingdom. A thought: royal families largely became such
because of their actual ownership of the property of their realm. Is
this not true of the Christ? Another thought: here the transcendent
nature of the Christ and His Kingdom is clearly overlaid upon the
transitory nature of Pilate and the domain of which he is a minor
player, and the comparisons leave us standing in awe. Beyond the
comparative details looms the awesome sovereignity of the Lord, the
Almighty. I have contributed before, but not much. These are some of
my thoughts of a Tuesday evening that my Charge Conference was to be
held, but it had to be postponed because the Conference Cabinet
meeting held my D.S. too late for him to make the it to the church on
time. Oh, well. gaiintex
The truth is easy. The desire of the universe is peace. God's desire
is that all creation would live in harmony, as originally intended.
The ideal would be a creation that does not have pain, suffering,
hardship, violence, etc. Yet the reality is, that we are far from such
things.
Those who desire and seek after such things understand far more easily
Christ's message.
Jesus died on the cross, to take away the sins of the world. Sin is
the disharmony that affects so much of our lives. Sin is that cloud of
awareness that stops us from fully being in touch with each others
spirit. The truth in other words.
Anyone who has ever identified this difficulty in life, is compelled
to listen to what Jesus is saying, right throughout the gospels.
Pilate and Jesus however, were speaking in tangents. I doubt whether
Pilate could even grasp what Jesus was implying. All this rhetoric,
about a kingdom from this world, would have been totally foreign to a
person who believed you gained peace and control only by superior
force. The strong will prevail.
This is a conversation couched in dichotomy. The two rulers (Pilate &
Jesus) are light years apart in their grasp of the reality, of how you
bring peace to the world.
The kingdom of God, is not something you can define in human terms. It
is the elemental desire of the purpose for creation. The reason we
exist. This is the kingship over which Christ has so much insight to
offer.
This is one of the most dynamic conversations anyone can ever read.
Oh! To have been there, and seen the expressions on Pilate's face, as
he wondered, "What are you talking about Jesus????"
I don't profess to fully understand everything Jesus says in the
conversation, but I do know something that would not have been missed
by Pilates advisers. This well educated Roman ruler, absolutely
bamboozled by a simple Jewish peasant.
Have you ever tried to talk to economic rationalists or business
people, about the mission of the Church? "What sell all you have and
give all the money away?"
The dichotomy continues.
Have a great week everyone.
Regards, KGB in Aussie.
What is truth? I read somewhere awhile ago that college students are
taught that all truths are relative. In many churches today, there
seems to be a problem with calling sin, sin. We would often rather
look at our own sins and ignore them and point to someone else's sins.
When the woman was caught in adultery, Jesus said, "Let anyone among
you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her" (John
8:7). Jesus addresses the woman and asks, "Has no one condemned you?"
"She said, "No one sir." "And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you.
Go your way, and from now on do not sin again (John 8:10-11). Although
Jesus doesn't condemn her, he still tells her to sin no more. Just
because we don't call what we do sin, doesn't mean we aren't sinning.
Pastor Laura in OH
Christ the King is a Johnny-come-lately to the schedule of festivals
and observances on the church calendar. It has neither the biblical
warrant of Easter nor the antiquity of the forty days of Lent. Christ
the King Sunday is the invention of a twentieth-century pope, Pius XI.
Yet Christ the King Sunday is on the calendars of all the Protestant
churches that keep a church calendar. No doubt the appeal of the day
is rooted in the need Pius XI saw in 1925. Europe was still reeling
from World War I, and economic uncertainty abounded. People were
bending the knee and doing obeisance to human savior and political
parties that promised to rescue them. Religion was increasingly
relegated to the private sphere. In response to this, Pius XI called
for an annual Sunday feast day to assert the "Kingship of our Savior."
He called for a day on which people would gather to bend their knees
to Christ and do obeisance to him as a witness to the day when every
knee in heaven and on earth and under the earth will bend to Christ
and confess him as Lord. In 1925 the observance of Christ the King
proclaimed that no earthly ruler is lord. The day proclaimed Jesus is
king not only of our hearts and our private moments and personal
salvation but of all time and space.
Bruce Modahl
Dear Bruce,
So what is your point after all that? It comes across as an angry
diatribe against Christ the King Sunday much as some have spoken
against the origins of a specific date for Christmas or the pagan
connections to the dates of Easter. To both I say if you have a better
date to celebrate them then please let me know.
Few things I know for sure. Christ is King. Worship in our culture is
held on Sunday. So a particular Sunday which may or may not be set
aside for that theme does not seem out place or heretical. Maybe Pius
XI did a good thing pointing to the Kingship of Christ in his time and
some Christians have picked up on it.
Following the lection is optional. I am not Catholic though I say that
knowing many are believers. I for one would like to hear more from you
about your words posted on this forum.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Do you ever feel like you preach the same sermon over and over only
with different titles?
Sally in GA
v. 37: Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."
Hmmm... seems we stop listening after we think we know it all.
Sally in GA
How's the title "Listen and Learn" sound to you?
Those who belong to the truth listen to Christ's voice - the Alpha,
Omega ... - and, thanks to Wesley we know that every time we know one
truth, there's another, deeper one around the corner.
But the final step is: "commit."
Sally in GA (sorry for all the posts again, I'm thinking in bits and
pieces)
Actualy folks, up here north of the 49th parallel, it is known as "The
Reign of Christ" - we intentionally renamed it after observing that
"Christ the King" seemed to feed some very unhealthy ideas about Jesus
as Imperial Ruler inviting Christians to imperially rule over others -
Reign of Christ - note that the reign of Christ on earth does not bear
resemblance to the reign of any imperial power, then or ever - the
type of reign that takes place when the one reigning has no bed or
home, no security or army - it is a radical, transformational,
revolutionary idea, the reign of service and love - temporal imperial
powers recognize only power and its uses - to them there is no such
thing as a "loyal opposition" you are loyal, and to be rewarded, or
opposition, and to be crushed - but Jesus, in this pivotal reading,
the meeting of his otherworldly reign of love and the Roman reign of
terror, refuses to crush, or kill, the opposition, even to the
restoring of the wound Peter inflicts in the garden -
one wonders if, as he was being led away, he turned back for a moment
to look at Pilate in all his surface vainglory and brutality, his
inner fear and darkness, - to look at him and love him for the broken
soul within - how unlike an imperial leader - how congruent with every
aspect of the eternal reign of Christ
Signed - back to work after 6 months absence for spinal
reconstruction.
Addendum -
"King" makes me think of portraits and bronze castings and reclining
marble figures in the great Cathedrals of Europe - all immobile behind
the weight of their wealth and power
"Reign" is a verb - dynamic, as Christ is -
The new young king of Jordan has an annoying [to his subjects] habit
of disguising himself as a beggar or pauper or working class nobody,
and sneaking in to government offices, hospitals and other facilities
to observe for himself exactly how his lowliest people are being
treated by the people mandated by the King to care for them - and then
righting the wrongs he observes in immediate and enduring ways - an
interesting way to reign.........much as I imagine Christ reigns among
us today.
Some look for the return of Christ - I wonder if he has ever been very
far away.
Back to work.
Once upon a recent time, in a tiny church in a tiny village in the
north of Europe, as the parishioners gathered for Sunday worship an
elderly man was seen among them. He looked quite distinguished and
dapper, well groomed, a man who would have blended in well with any
crowd of churchgoers in almost any place, except for the fact that in
this tiny place, he was a stranger.
He was no stranger to church worship, however. He made his way into
the warm darkness of the church, pausing a moment to accustom his eyes
to the light, and then made his way to an empty pew for a few moments
of quiet contemplation before the service began. He removed his
gloves, and set them carefully inside the hat which he had of course
removed upon entering through the ancient oak doors, placed his
elegant silver-topped cane carefully next to them, so it should not
fall and shatter the fragrant silence, and gave himself over tothe
musings of his heart.
Then she arrived. We all have met her in one form or another. The
matriarchal figure of a woman in charge of the world - or at least, in
charge of her world. Hatted and gloved, befurred and befeathered, she
did not walk so much as make stately progress through the courtyard in
front of the church, reminding one observer of a large ship moving on
a determined course. After pleasantries with a few other parishioners,
and an eagle eye cast quickly around to insure that all was as all
should be, she made her way into the church.
There, in the soft radiance of the candles, is the man - the visitor -
the stranger. With the air of one born to privelege, the manner
approved by the finest finishing schools, and a couple of imperious
taps of a fine silver handled cane, she manages to break the reverie
of the stranger.
"You, sir, are in MY pew."
The old gentleman, surprised by the interruption, looked up into the
face of the woman. Wordlessly, but with an inexplicable twinkle in his
eye, he collected his belongings, gloves, hat, and his own fine
silver-topped cane. Also one of polished manners, he stood to his full
height, bowed ever so slightly in a mixture of courtesy and apology,
and moved to another unoccupied pew, leaving the queenly matron
unchallenged in her domain.
The service went as all services did in that tiny church, and at the
conclusion, the gentleman again collected his cane, slid his gloves
over his long, well-manicured fingers, and, as he stepped into the
soft pearl grey light of the cloudy day, made his way towards the gate
of the courtyard. He paused at the gate, and turned to look back at
the knots of parishioners taking leave of each other, managed to catch
the notice of the woman who had rebuffed him. With practised grace and
accustomed ease, and the same inexplicable twinkle, he tipped his
expensive hat to her, and then made his way down the street and
vanished around a corner.
It was well into the week following when the matron, holding forth on
one of the many subjects upon which she was strongly opined, was
interrupted by another lady "of a certain age".
"Did you see who was in church last Sunday?"
"Everyone who ought to have been there, of course - oh, and some
strange man."
Her face turned a shade of purple rarely seen in that conservative
little village when the other lady spoke up -
"That was no strange man - that was King Christian of Denmark."
The very man,the head of one of the oldest and most enduring European
monarchies, whom, had he come to her house she would have entertained
with her finest damask and most refined manners, she had thrown out of
her church pew.
Where will the king come, unbidden and unidentified,to you?
Admirer of Nailbender
What is Truth? Dang you all getting Philospohical this week! LOL My
brain is too crowded. I am preaching on Eagles this week, Allowing
Jesus to be your king and mounting you up on wings of eagles.
What is truth? After this week of all the CNN/FOX/MSNBC news....we
wonder.
What is truth? Did Mr. Peterson really kill his wife? Is Jack-O a
child molester? And What will Massachuetts do? Can Gays really marry?
Is Civil union real?
I have my answer to the latter. If you are interested one of my flock
sent me a website to check our, they want 50000 pastors signing.
www.churchcoalition.com
All I can say is if Massachuetts allows the word "marriage" with
homosexual. It opens the doors wide open for those pastors who are in
convenant realationships(which is now a dont ask dont tell situation
in mainline denominations) to make then change church discipline! We
can be married now so it's o.k. attitude!
Well, I am ironic in attitude, if they change the discipline for them,
then they need to allow single pastors who are heteorsexual have sex
too!!! fair play is fair play!
I dont believe that really; if you are a christian and single pre
maritial sex is a no-no!!! Pastors have to be examples for
congregations. Why is it that spirit filled christian man, supposedly,
think if you are over 30 and date them awhile, sex is o.k. even when
not married, Christian men say well, you're a widow, divorced you have
had it before...that makes me so mad! PREMARITIAL SEX is a sin.
period. Men need to realize that and quit their groping! The Church
has let singles down over age 25! TRUE LOVE WAITS IS FOREVER till you
marry, even if you dont marry until 40's! you need to be a virgin! I
am hard nosed I know! CB in west ohio
