Scripture Text (NRSV)
John 17:20-26
17:20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of
those who will believe in me through their word,
17:21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am
in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you
have sent me.
17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that
they may be one, as we are one,
17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one,
so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them
even as you have loved me.
17:24 Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may
be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me
because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
17:25 "Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know
you; and these know that you have sent me.
17:26 I made your name known to them, and I will make it
known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them,
and I in them."
Comments:
Confirmation sunday for us. I am thinking of using this and the great
commission. Is anyone else doing confirmation this week?
Yes, I am, and I am using it the opening of Worship. I got a cool idea
from another DPS'er which uses the parable of the sower so that will
be my "Gospel reading" Nancy-Wi
actually I am using this scripture too. " I made your name known to
them... I think that in confirmation I pray that they have had the
name of Christ know to them as well as God and the Holy Spirit that
will dwell in them. Nancy-Wi
To the other confirmation "Bread for the Journey and Touch Holiness by
Ruth Duck both have some nice litergy.
In the life of the church is a unity of mission: to proclaim in word
and deed that God loves all people. The unity of this mission finds
its source in our union with Christ through word and meal.
This is part of Jesus' long prayer to God before he goes to the Garden
of Gethsemane. He asks that his disciples may know the same love and
purpose Jesus already shares with God. That love will be the basis for
unity between Jesus' followers and a beacon to the world.
We had Confirmation Sunday last week and I will offer you this sermon
idea:
I took the baptism/joining the church questions (Do you renounce evil?
Do you accept the power that God gives you...? Do you accept
Christ...?) and reworked them for the congregation and confirmands to
ask "How bold is your faith?", "Do you know that you are not alone?",
"Do you know that you are loved?"
One certainly must be bold to promise to resist evil, one needs to
remember that we are not alone in this struggle and that God goes with
us, and we need to hold on to the love personified in Christ in order
to have hope.
Just an early week thought,
TB in MN
Although we are not doing Confirmation, we are honoring our High
School graduates on Sunday. One young woman is going off to the Army,
one and the rest are going to college. So, this is a good passage
about how God is with them, as they go into a world of unknowns, and
to challenge them to seek that oneness as well as proclaim it.
Just some early thoughts.
Susan in Wa.
I am an interim pastor, and this week will be my last Sunday in my
congregation. What always strikes me about this text is that Jesus is
praying for us..."I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on
behalf of those who will believe in me through their word,"... that's
US, right? If we are truly one, with God and oneanother through God,
then our separation in time and space really doesn't amount to much in
the long run. The unity Christ longs for us to share is more real than
our distant geography and historical contexts. It's early, and it's
abstract, but it is what I will begin wrestling with. I may get at it
through a story from one of those Get Organized television shows. A
woman was living in the house that she grew up in. When her mother
died (15 years previously), she didn't get rid of anything. The house
overwhelmed her life. She could barely move, much less invite others
into her space and her life. She felt depressed and weighed down by 50
years of accumulated junk. The professional organizer finally
convinced her that she had to get rid of her mother's old clothes, but
the woman wouldn't do it until she was permitted to keep a square of
fabric from each item. She couldn't let go, because the house full of
junk was all that she had left of her mother. Because Christ gives us
unity in him, we CAN let go, and live. Not weighed down by the
accumulated junk in our own inner and outer spaces, but light, and
free. Ultimately everything in this life is stripped away, willingly
or unwillingly. If we can just believe the promise, and give it all
away with joy, when we are with Christ, and see his glory, everything
glorious will be returned to us. Sorry to ramble, but I think I've got
a seed. -SS in PA
Hey Everyone....I'm a Lay Minister and have gained much from your
postings. I truly appreciate you and your insights. I need more
help....I'm looking for a Children's Sermon that I can do this week in
reference to education. We are honoring our graduates and also
celebrating our SS and SS teachers. Any ideas. Lil'est Rev
What is unity? Not what we take it to be – but real unity? Do we have
to agree on every piece of Doctrine for there to be unity? Or is the
requirement that of love for one another?
I think too often we as the Church are out to prove how wrong someone
is rather than just love them. I have come to trust the Holy Spirit to
bring people to where they need to be. I wonder if the arguments we
find ourselves in at churches are more about distracting ourselves
from our own issues rather than really what we say they are about.
I serve a church where the elders (small group leaders) remind people
that they cannot speak for someone else or someone else’s situation on
a consistent basis. People are allowed to share their needs,
perceptions, faults and feelings – the only things that all have to
agree to are the Statement of Faith and Values of the church and the
rest is not going to be argued.
We determined that it is not about WHAT we know that creates unity,
but WHOM we know. We have maintained in the time we have been together
as a church that it is the relationships we build that God’s
redemption through Jesus are made best known and we submit all else to
the relationship within the shared faith and values of the
congregation.
It has been hard to learn to be this way for me after years of doing
church along doctrinal lines. While it has been hard it has also been
the most freeing thing I have ever seen. I no longer have to have all
the answers. I just have to serve the one with all the answers. I hope
to continue to learn in this way as I see the results of people loving
each other over the boundaries that we often see dividing the
household of God.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe this is not what Jesus is speaking of, but I
cannot help but think he is not worried as much about some of the
things dividing us now.
Blessings, Greg in Nashville
I find myself at such a loss with this text. A week ago we had a
Ministerial Alliance meeting in my community and the meeting ended in
a bitter argument over theology.
In another church in town my collegue miniter there is fighting a
bitter faction within the church that is hell-bent on destruction.
I too have been through churches that were more interested in causing
pain than upholding the gospel.
Current events such as an election year, homosexuality / same-sex
marrage, the war in Iraq, and the like have well meaning Christians
pitted against one another in bitter fights for theological dominance
over the culture.
We are not united. It seems that we are no more united than those
disciples would be five minutes after the arrest of Jesus the night he
prayed that prayer.
I find myself struggling with how to preach unity and hope in a world
that does not seem to acknowlege that such unity and hope is even
possible.
THere come points where we have to make faith stands that necessarily
say "my stand is right" and the other stand is "wrong." Yet I can
recognize that those with whom I find my self in the most bitter
disagreement are as devoted to their understanding of the faith as I
am to my own.
I'm just discouraged...and I must say pretty depressed over the whole
idea. Sunday's coming. ANybody have a suggestion to point me toward
the good news?
Dave in NM
Hello:
I am searching liturgy for a Blessing of the Ground to use on the
property on which we plan to build our new church. Any help??? We will
have an actual "ground breaking" at a later date.
Thanks.
Grace and peace Georgia in Tulsa
to Dave in NM,
I've been there with you and battled through many a fight-
theologically, politically and otherwise.
What I would hold on to out of this particular reading is that it is a
teaching about what we hope will come to pass, not what is the reality
at that given moment. The hope of a future great unity is offered so
that we can see the power and great need of the love we have to share
in the present moment.
This passage works well for those who are honoring church school
teachers this week in that you can remind them that, though it might
be tough to see how one makes a difference in this present time, know
that with our teaching we have planted seeds that have the potential
to grow. If you have loved, if you have shown compassion, if you have
offered hope, then you have forever changed the world. 'Faith hope and
love endure (as opposed to doubt, fear and hatred which never last)
and the greatest of these is love!"
TB in MN
to all: Great reflections!! to Dave in NM: My heart and spirit
struggle with you also on this issue of unity in love among christians.
For me the situation worsening (is there such a word?) getting worse
and worse is a sign to PRAY, LIVE, and PREACH more love and unity more
hope that it is possible. Some things take a long long time. My
Daughter was in drugs for 17 years and during that time I just loved
her. I did not give her anymore money, but I loved and helped where I
could without risk of supporting her habit. I was proud of her for all
of who she was outside of her drug us and addict behavior. I made it
clear to all at I loved her. I did not criticize how she dressed or
kept house or took care of her son. I did take him alot and provide
extra for him when I could. Whe she got clean the first thing she said
to me was I knew that you hated and despised what I did to my self and
others, but I always knew you loved ME!!! It gave her the strength to
come home and get out!!! She still has problems and I am working at
loving her in another way through them. Love is the ANSWER, Jesus said
Love is always the answer. I believe it with all my heart. I have a
new pastor in my community who is recruiting people for his church by
saying that they are going to go to hell because they come to my
church. One of the reasons is becasue I am a woman. He has never come
to aske me what I believe or offered to get to know me. His tactics
are fear and legalism. Pray for me that I once again practice what I
pray and preach to live in love. I will not use the same tactics. I
want people to be in the fellowship that nurtures them in the love of
Christ in growing in love in their relationships and service to others
in the world. I do not believe people are going to hell because they
go to his church. It is an individuals lack of honest connection with
God and God's will that causes one to perish. "They will know you are
mine because of the love you have one for another!!" Whew we have a
long way to go in that call from Christ, but I believe we can do it!!
My prayers are with you! As Weley would say, "Preach it until you
believe it!" jmj in montana
to all: Great reflections!! to Dave in NM: My heart and spirit
struggle with you also on this issue of unity in love among christians.
For me the situation worsening (is there such a word?) getting worse
and worse is a sign to PRAY, LIVE, and PREACH more love and unity more
hope that it is possible. Some things take a long long time. My
Daughter was in drugs for 17 years and during that time I just loved
her. I did not give her anymore money, but I loved and helped where I
could without risk of supporting her habit. I was proud of her for all
of who she was outside of her drug us and addict behavior. I made it
clear to all at I loved her. I did not criticize how she dressed or
kept house or took care of her son. I did take him alot and provide
extra for him when I could. Whe she got clean the first thing she said
to me was I knew that you hated and despised what I did to my self and
others, but I always knew you loved ME!!! It gave her the strength to
come home and get out!!! She still has problems and I am working at
loving her in another way through them. Love is the ANSWER, Jesus said
Love is always the answer. I believe it with all my heart. I have a
new pastor in my community who is recruiting people for his church by
saying that they are going to go to hell because they come to my
church. One of the reasons is becasue I am a woman. He has never come
to aske me what I believe or offered to get to know me. His tactics
are fear and legalism. Pray for me that I once again practice what I
pray and preach to live in love. I will not use the same tactics. I
want people to be in the fellowship that nurtures them in the love of
Christ in growing in love in their relationships and service to others
in the world. I do not believe people are going to hell because they
go to his church. It is an individuals lack of honest connection with
God and God's will that causes one to perish. "They will know you are
mine because of the love you have one for another!!" Whew we have a
long way to go in that call from Christ, but I believe we can do it!!
My prayers are with you! As Weley would say, "Preach it until you
believe it!" jmj in montana
Georgia:
The people may gather at the current place of worship and move in
procession to the new site. The procession is begun as the minister
says:
"Let us go forth in peace,"
R/ "in the name of the Lord."
A hymn is sung as the congregation moves in procession, or at the site
when there is no procession.
The minister addresses the congregation at the site:
"Brothers and sisters in Christ: We have come together to seek God's
blessing as we set apart this ground for the building of a church."
One or more lessons from the Bible are read. A brief address may
follow. The prayer is said.
"The Lord be with you."
R/ "And also with you."
"Let us pray. Blessed are you, O Lord our God, ruler of the universe.
You fill the entire world with your presence; your name is to be
hallowed through all the earth. Bless all those who have worked or
contributed to provide this site which today we set apart for the
building of a church."
The minister may trace the sign of the cross in the earth at the
approximate site of the altar.
"May this be a place where your glory dwells and where your way is
revealed in Word and Sacrament. May your gracious blessing descend
like the dew from heaven upon this place and upon all who shall gather
here to worship you. You have given us joy in a work begun in your
name; may we soon celebrate your presence in the house of your Church,
and, in the time to come, praise you forever in our eternal home;
through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the
Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever."
R/ "Amen"
The Lord's Prayer is said, followed by:
"O Lord our God, in you every good work has its beginning. Grant that
what we have set apart this day to the glory of your name may be
successfully completed to the good of all your people; through Jesus
Christ our Lord."
R/ "Amen"
"God in peace. Serve the Lord."
R/ "Thanks be to God."
The Farewell Discourses have spoken to me, more than most years about
community. What is community (common-Unity)? How is it achieved within
the body of Christ. Often we think of the unity between denominations;
there is a harder unity, the one between brothers and sisters in faith
within the same local congregation.
Perhaps I need a vacation, but it seems to me that so many of our
congregation come to church to worship without the notion of what it
means to be together in Christ. How do we teach this? It was at the
heart of our Lord's High Priestly Prayer and yet I don't sense that
unity (perhaps it is meant to be invisible).
We have a few people (maybe 20%) who give themselves to the life of
the parish and the others are content to be spectators/observers and
curiosity seekers. How are they converted? O, I know the theological
answer to that question, but how do you bring them into the center
where Christ is?
It is as though the congreation still belongs to the world. I want to
be positive - I never want to suggest that there is something wrong.
Now it could be, as stated above, that I am really ready for a
vacation, a little pause, and I may feel better about it all, yet I
still wonder .....
tom in ga
Greg in Nashville,
I'm interested. Having all the answers isn't for me, either. I think
what you were saying in your note ---I had to re-read it--about
relationships is that God's redemption is best known to us through our
relationships as believers, rather than through individual effort. Did
I read this right? I have learned too much the art of theological
suspicion and cynicism. It takes a huge step to leave it up to the
Holy Spirit to deal with others and just love them as they are.
I am more convinced than ever that our best evangelism is our unity.
(Maybe this is what you were saying. If so, I agree even more..). When
a group of Democrats and Republicans; rich people and poor people;
black people and white people; conservative and liberal; evangelical
and up-tight; and you name it, all come together under one roof and
worship and work together, there can be no better evangelism in my
mind. It is only the Holy Spirit that could make this hodgepodge into
'one'. I think this was the greatest witness of the early church, come
to think of it.
But, since 'unity' doesn't come as a cut-and-dried program from
Cokesbury, it doesn't sell well as Evangelism. The question is, how
can we get along? rather than how can we fill the pews? I know
evangelism is more than increasing the numbers, but this is what it
comes down to in many churches. Some of my ramblings
Steve in KS who just bought a wheat truck.
I'll share just a thread of wisdom from my years of ministry (I am
older than I admit and have been in ministry longer than I wish to
say):
Be with those who are excited and minister with those who are on fire-
from them, you will be affirmed and energized.
Love those who are weak and needy- from them you will be fulfilled.
Care for those who are rejected and unloved- from them you will
receive love.
Bless those who hate you, ignore you and sleep during your sermons-
they will keep you humble.
Ministry is a sacred calling- never forget that. You are doing far
more good than you suspect and are being listened to better than you
think.
I'll pray for each of you tonight. Blessings! Be bold! Be alive! Be
honest- would you want to be doing anything else?
TB in MN
TB ini MN,
Your advice to us is very helpful and very wise. Aging and experience
to give us some wisdom along the way, I guess!! I am in a difficult
time in my congregation, and although most of the people are
wonderful, there are a few who are very difficult, and I struggle to
find a way to be a Pastor to them. Drop kicking them through the goal
posts of life doesn't seem like the proper Pastoral Care! The struggle
to find unity with them is very real and palpable, which I think was
also the case with the disciples. Maybe we idealize the early church
too much, and think we are somehow different. Nawwww. People are
people. It is talking about unity, not uniformity. The body of Christ
cannot say, "I have no need of you." Some rambling thoughts. But
thanks for your words of wisdom. They should go on a plaque somewhere!
Susan in Wa.
Dave in MN:
I have certainly been there, both in a congregation which was
hell-bent on tearing itself apart over petty differences of opinion on
non-central issue, and in a local ministerial alliance where pastors
allowed theological differences to deeply divide them.
I don't know your denominational background, but as an
Anglican/Episcopalian I have found the words of Archbishop William
Temple, who served as Abp. of Canterbury during the Second World War
very comforting and pertinent to our divisive issues: "When we choose
wisely, God reigns; when we choose foolishly, God reigns. God reigns,
God reigns."
If we can focus on the centrality of God's reign, of the Lordship of
Jesus Christ and his new commandment to love one another, we can get
through these differences and disputes. Our job as pastors, I think,
is to keep pointing to the center and not take any particular position
with the same kind of "line in the sand, black-and-white" thinking
that some of our congregants seem to adopt.
Remember the words of St. Augustine: "In essentials, unity: in
inessentials, liberty: in all things, charity." (I think it was
Augustine first -- it's been attributed to so many throughout the
church's history that I've lost track of the first utterance!)
Seems to be that this is what the High Priestly prayer for unity is
all about. I would also note (as a last comment) that there is a
considerable difference between "unity" and "uniformity" -- what we
strive for is the flexible ideal of unity -- not the lock-stap,
jack-booted ideal of uniformity.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Friends,
I have seen something of the 'genuine' in this week's conversation:
JMJ in Montana, for one. Her/his love for the daughter is really
something! And the words of wisdom from our Elder Statemsman. I really
wouldn't want to be doing anything else. Thanks. I have a few more
Sunday's before going out to pasture. Maybe there will be some good
done. This is the first time a church isn't moving us, so I bought a
wheat truck to move our belongings from Kansas to Carolina. To pay for
the front tires that are needed on my new $2000 truck, we'll haul some
wheat in a few weeks when harvest begins. We'll be rolling with the
grain gatherers, bringing in the sheaves, hopefully. People drive by
the manse (parsonage for you Methodists--I'm Presbyterian) in this
small mid-west town and smile when they see the minister's red wheat
truck. It's a '64 chevy, just like the ones my dad used to sell at his
Chevrolet dealership in small town SC. I would install the floor mat
and wash them down --same color as the one in my drive--for delivery
to farmers coming in from the country. I'll be rolling, then, a bit of
nostalgia as I head back east.
Steve in KS
SS in PA, I did a "Clean Sweep" sermon last Sunday when the theme was
Jesus' new Commandment to the disciples and the Holy Spirit would come
live with whomever has love. I went with the idea that these "clutter
mongers" had homes with rooms that were no longer functioning for
their intended purposes - living rooms that you couldn't live in,
bedrooms you couldn't sleep or get dressed in, etc. They required
somebody to come in and require them to sweep out what was
unnecessary, put things in their proper place and make room for those
things that were both functional and necessary for a "happy home".
That's what the Holy Spirit does for us - he's our clean sweeper who
helps us sort out what is necessary to hang onto and what can be let
go. Then he helps us let go. He helps us put the "keepers" in some
sort of workable order in our lives so our lives can become
functional, and can be used for the purposes the Creator had for them.
We are then free to love, which is the entire point of being a
follower of Jesus.
Am wondering if the 'one-ness' in this prayer has more to do with the
fact that Jesus and God, his Father, thought and knew the same truths
about each other. Both rooted in unconditional and generous Love.
Jesus had an understanding and knowing of God that had become
contaminated by the world. The world (including the religious folks)
misunderstood God.
When God sent Jesus to restore the truth about his essence to the
world, the world didn't recognize the truth & rejected it.
Now that Jesus had revealed who/what God was really like to these few
disciples, he prayed that they would all come to the same conclusions
about God.
They were to be 'one' in their understanding and knowing of God's
core.
But, when all was said and done, all they really 'knew' about God was
that God must have sent Jesus.
It was a start for them, but ongoing.
Christians are still telling the world different and opposing things
about who God is on the inside, which things never quite seem to fully
resemble what Jesus revealed about him.
from Snellville, where God is not the American Idol.
Over 20 years ago, before we were quite as "enlightened" as we think
we are today, my sister and her husband decided to adopt two special
needs children, who were half-brother and sister. The boy was
bi-racial. There are members of my family who would find the special
needs problems bad enough to have to put up with, but bi-racial was
pushing things too far for them. These children were brought in first
as foster children, and into a somewhat hostile environment. My sister
prayed that these children would one day be made one with the
'regular' family, included, loved, with hearts wide open to them. She
wanted her children to be loved as she had been loved by our parents.
It hasn't been easy, but love, even one-sided, managed to accomplish
much in that direction. Now my nephew is no longer referred to as
"that black boy", but by his name, and he has been given titles (my
grandson, my great-nephew, my cousin, and so on.) My niece is no
longer "that stupid girl" but has a name and a place in the larger
family. I praise God for this much, and pray for the day when love
will indeed bring about oneness in spirit to even the hard-core haters
out there.
KHC
our theologies will never be one. Someone will always feel it is wrong
for me and other women to be in the pulpit. There will be those who
choose to claim who will go to hell and who doesn't. We will never, as
a human race, completely agree on all things about God, but we can
agree on Love. As my graduates are looking for new adventures, they
leave and it is scary and they wonder if they will make it. They
wonder who will care if they are gone, and what will connect them to
home. the answer is LOVE. It is the universal call that Christ gave.
LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Not one denomination is willing to say they are
against loveing one another. (I realize that folks want to dictate HOW
we love, but no one will ever say they are against love.) It has
brought each of us to where we are today. It is how God holds us when
we are weak and lonely. So maybe this week simply needs to be about
how we Love, reminding our congregations that Christ is our example.
Just some thoughts.... tammy in texas
Tammie
What makes it impossible for there never to be those things you stated
to not happen? Is this negated even though "with God all things are
possible?"
Shalom, bammamma
Tom in ga,
Here are what I think will solve the problems that you so acurately
describe:
What is community (common-Unity)? The Common unity is the Love that is
common to unity and disunity and to all words and their opposites when
we love all words and their opposites. Matthew 5:44-45, 48. Love is
the basis of all the law and the prophets: matthew 22:36-40. So when
we apply Love to unity, we also have to apply it to those with whom we
are not united. How do we apply Love those two opposites? Like this: I
love myself as united and I lvoe myself as disunited so that I can
love the united as myself and so i can love the disunited as myself,
and so that even when I am disunited to others, I am still united to
my Love for them, 2 Corin 12:9-10, and so that my Love is common and
is the community in ALL thoughts and situations! See 2 corin 10:5,
Philippians 4:11-13. proverbs 3:5-6. Matthew 4:4. In 2 cor 12:9-10,
Love is the strength that makes me strong when I am weak, and makes me
doubly strong when strong when I obey God and love myself as weak and
as strong.
That is what your members do know about unconsciously: it is in most
of their marriage vows: I promise to lvoe you for better and for
worse, in health and in sickness and as rich and as poor: but do not
know about consciously simply because they are not being delibretely
taught by you, and you have not taught it simply because you never
knew how to teach them to love their neighbors as themselves is to
teach them to love themselves as their neighbors.
So please take this as God's answer to your prayers.
How is it achieved within the body of Christ? By teaching people to
repent of the sin of hating themselves as any words by loving
themselves as all words so that they can love their neighbors in heart
no matter what words or names they are to them!
"Often we think of the unity between denominations; there is a harder
unity, the one between brothers and sisters in faith within the same
local congregation." In fact, between bros and sisters is where it is
to start, and then the commonality of Love in denominational unity and
or in separate identities must follow! Bros who only love themselves
as men but hate themselves as women will hate sisters as what women
they are! Sisters who love selves only as strong but hate themselves
as weak must hate men who else they also are: weak. see matthew 5:43,
46-47; 6:24. ezekiel 16:44-45. James 1:8. 2 samuel 13:15.
'Perhaps I need a vacation..', Not literally! All you need is to
enlarge your Love by having a vacation from the sin of Hate for you as
any words.
'but it seems to me that so many of our congregation come to church to
worship without the notion of what it means to be together in Christ.'
Exactly. Simply because no one has taught them that being in Love is
being in Christ, so that just as how being in Love means something old
and something new is also as how being in Christ makes all old things
new, and makes all new things newest! 2 corin 5:17.
How do we teach this? See above and John 6:44-45, 1 John 4:19 and John
15:9 and matthew 22:36-40 and 7:12: God obeys the Golden Rule and
loves US as Himself and as our neighbors to teach us that THAT is HOW
we are to love us: as all words and their opposites! And you teach it
as in kindergarten: by saying it out aloud and repeating it until it
is rooted and ingrained in our hearts and we know it by heart! Matthew
12:34-37; 18:1-3.
It was at the heart of our Lord's High Priestly Prayer and yet I don't
sense that unity (perhaps it is meant to be invisible). U don;t sense
it because it is NOT there and you can not SEE it! It is invisible
because words ARE invisible and words are sound: so if it were there
you wd HEAR it! 2 timothy 1:7. John 6:63.
'We have a few people (maybe 20%) who give themselves to the life of
the parish and the others are content to be spectators/observers and
curiosity seekers. How are they converted?" By being converted from
the sin of hate for self as any words to LOVE of self as all words by
repenting of the sin of hate for any words which means to turn around
180 degrees and love all the words. Acts 2:38-40. And they start by
saying it. Then as their minds are Love-pure, all things are pure!
Titus 1:15.
O, I know the theological answer to that question, but how do you
bring them into the center where Christ is? By bringing them to Center
of Love where Christ is Love, The Word. John 1:1
'It is as though the congreation still belongs to the world." ..simply
because they are of the world: they still love as the world loves:
loves the good out of the sin of Hate for the opposite of who or of
what they love! Matthew 5:43, 46-47; 6:24. 1 john 2:9-11, 15-17. God
loves the good out of Love for the bad! Matthew 5:44-45, 48.
'I want to be positive - I never want to suggest that there is
something wrong.' Ah! there is a symptom of the probblem: U have to be
positive out of Love for being negative! The negative pointing out of
a sin is NOT a sin: God wants you to show your people their sin.
Isaiah 58:14. The sin is only if you hate being neagtive and so hate
the sinners who are negative!
'Now it could be, as stated above, that I am really ready for a
vacation, a little pause, and I may feel better about it all, yet I
still wonder .....' Yes, please rather wonder!
A friend in ga
bammamma,
I would never presume to limit the power of God in Christ Jesus. It
just seems to me that those who appose women in ordained possitions
are very strong in their beliefs and use their faith to back it up.
Just as I, a woman of faith, use my faith to justify my ministry in
the pulpit. Theologies will always reflect the history of individuals.
But Love transends all things. Christ transends all things. So I do
not think our theologies are ever going to unite, but your love for
Christ can. Okay, so this very tired mom is having a hard time putting
on this computer what I feel in my heart! If theologies were ever
going to fully unite, 2000 years of history should have brought us
closer and yet we seem so far apart.
Tammy in texas
Only God is right. We can only think we're right. But not only God can
love. We can all do it, if we'll try.
When we pray the Lord's Prayer, we don't say "my" father, ask for "my"
daily bread, forgive "my" sins, "my" temptations. The prayer invites
us to unity "Our Father, "Our daily bread", "Our debts", lead "US" not
into temptation, "deliver us". (thoughts extracted from Max Lucado's
"The Great House of God").
Iowa Farmgirl
To Susan in Wa "Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life" -
couldn't help but chuckle - I have felt dropped kicked many times in
my life - those times I felt, abused, outta control, dizzy, uncertain
of my destination, anger toward the punter, and a fear that I would
hit the goal post instead of sailing through.
All this to say - from my experience those sharp prickly personalities
that are able to throw the quills are so often the same people so
easily hurt when the quills come their way - There are reasons a
person is the way they are (profound ugh?) and most of those can be
traced back to fear & deep wounds. Fear of losing control - fear of
change - fear of the future - fear of becoming insignificant etc, They
are the very ones who need to be loved the most & are so difficult to
love - They are the walking wounded & wounded people have a pattern of
wounding others - A defense mechanism.
Sometimes we get a glimpse of the pain and the events that lead them
to such a place of hurt - many times we don't. For me thinking of them
as wounded people helps me to be compassionate - I pray harder for
those individuals - pray harder that my response will be godly - and
sometimes I simply pray for their feet - people whose feet hurt can
hardly be nice :) - when your feet hurt you just hurt all over - We
can disfuse alot of wounded,angry people with love, humor, touch and
chocolate! Porcupines rarely get touched or invited for a meal. I have
survived many 'porcupines' with this approach - Perhaps you can too -
of course you often hear me singing - drop kick me Jesus - please!!!!
Mitcavis -
This is a prayer of Jesus: What does a person pray about? What's on a
person's prayer list? Answer: Things that are close to your heart.
Close to Jesus' heart here is US. You and I!!! And what about us? That
we would live in self-giving love for one another, in UNITY. I suppose
an asnwer to that prayer might involve US in the way we live, in the
way we respond to the living Christ in our midst. Is is possible that
YOU and I could be "answers to Prayer"....Could our lives embody
answers to JESUS' prayers? Isbell, Pittsburgh
Mitcavis,
Thanks for the reminder of these porcupine people. One of my
porcupines is one who has had many hurts in her life and is still
trying to figure out who she is by focusing mostly on who she wants to
run from. But that being said, I should remember what you suggest and
what my own mother has said for years, "The people who deserve the
love the least, need it the most!" I promise I won't kick her through
the goal posts of life!
Another note to many of the discussions this week is, the unity that
we are to seek is being in union with Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as
Jesus is, isn't it? And so, if we focus on our unity in Christ,
combined with loving each other as Christ has loved us, all the
diversity with the Body of Christ becomes somewhat inconsequential.
There will always be those who won't respond in loving ways, or feel
everyone must be uniform, all alike, but those are just the ones we
need to love along and allow them to be grumpy!
Susan in Wa.
Tammy in Texas,
You have been on my heart for the last couple of weeks. How is your
daughter doing? How are you? Know you are in my prayers.
Susan in Wa.
Susan,
Taking Kelly to the Dr. this morning. We have decided to start hospice
in the near future. Trying to get her body chemisties up first. That
doesn't seem to be happening very fast. She is either reacting to some
of her million meds and it's causing pain, or her body is already
shutting down. I will know more tonight..this really sucks. But thanks
for the prayers..they are what hold us up. tammy in texas
Isbell began her post by asking the question: What does a person pray
about? And then she answered that question. I'm going to come at it
from a little different direction, from the direction of "Why does a
person pray about something?" And the answere for that question to me
is because they are either concerned about it happening or that it is
already happening... Unity in the early church? No. But it has been
idealized that way.
In the 2001 postings RWH in MD commented that the Greek word for for
unity shares the same root as the word "symphony." A symphony is only
complete and beautiful if it has many different instruments playing
many different parts.
In the UMC we've just come out of a General Conference for which the
movement continues to split the church over the issue of
homosexuality. Jesus prays for unity. We pray for Jesus to make
everyone else agree with our side...
Dave in NM you are not alone. May we see beyond our own opinions and
embrace the vision of oneness with Christ. Christ in us. In us so much
that his presence oozes out of us onto all the people we come in
contact with!
My prayers are with you all. Mark in WI
Two things work against both the understanding of the oneness called
forth by Jesus’s prayer and its actualization in our churches; (1) Our
societies reliance on individualism as the basis of our culture and
(2) our inability to find the oneness in the essence of God’s self.
David Cunningham, in his book These Three Are One, notes that we live
in a society shaped by the dictums of (a) Descartes introspective
search for truth (Cogito, ergo sum) and (b) Kant’s moral dictum (“the
starry firmament above, and the moral law within”). Both of these
philosophers laid the basis of the post modernism which allows us to
claim neither unity nor absolute truth. For us to be united in any
sense, then, begs a deeper unity than that of human concepts. Unity,
in a post modern world, must come from without, if it is to come at
all. The dilemma is this; as children of the enlightenment we have
chosen to intellectually reject all that does not come from within.
Western intellectual and philosophical inquiry cannot grant us
resolution in this area.
Also, our western understanding of the trinity does not assist us much
in the understanding of Jesus’ saying “The glory that you have given
me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one.” In a
caricature of the early church fathers’ struggles with the nature of
the Trinity, we have offered to our people an effective tri-theism.
The essential Unity is lost in the notion that there are three
separate and distinct beings, somehow loosely (or even tightly)
connected as One. In an effort to protect the unity of the divine, we
fall back into the modalism condemned as heresy by the early church.
We reason, there is only one God, but we can only see him as Father,
or Son, or Spirit.
The concept of unity in the Trinity is viewed as not all that
important in our modern theology. We cannot understand it (especially
within our modern radical individualism) and therefore we shelve it,
and bring it out (reluctantly) on Trinity Sunday. And we are thankful
that Trinity Sunday falls in the summer, when our attendance is down.
Patricia Wilson-Kastner suggests that rather than beginning with God’s
unique and separate faces, we use the dynamic interrelatedness
(community) of the divine self as the essence of God. Substituting
this active “perichoretic” relatedness for substans in traditional
theology led her to perceive God as having the attributes of mutual
inclusiveness, freedom and relatedness. This understanding has direct
implications for our life together as Church. Catherine Mowry LaCugna
writes of these implications; “Since these ways of relating are the
hallmarks of divine life, they should characterize the patterns of
human persons in communion with each other. Inclusiveness entails
accepting a person in the light of our common humanity. Community
points to interrelatedness at every level of reality and contradicts
those forces destructive to genuine community, especially sexism and
racism. Freedom and its corollary, responsibility, belong to the
exercise of personhood under the conditions of genuine community.” (Lacugna,
God For Us, p. 275)
Oneness, then, can be understood as both relational and dynamic. By
its nature, the oneness of which Jesus speaks cannot be understood via
radical individualism. My way or the highway is not God’s way. A
oneness which does not lead to action also is not in harmony with such
a “perichoretic” understanding of God. God is active, the
relationships within God’s being are active, as is the community which
bears his name. Christianity is borne out in the doing.
Sparky in MN
Tammy
I don't contribute many times, but I read consistently... if I am
often at a loss to speak to the passages I am at a greater loss to
speak to you and your daughter just now. I can only say my heart aches
and my faith is taut as I hold you each in my prayers...
Just Another Tom
A question.
Is a pregnant woman one, or two, or both?
I don't believe this question can be likened to the unity of the
Trinity, but it might become a parallel illustration of our confusion
over unity and distinction.
Michelle
Tammy,
My heart aches for you and your daughter. I know you are aware of the
promise of the resurrection, but that doesn't make today's burden any
lighter. I hope your congregation is holding you close in loving care,
as your DPS friends can do only from a distance.
The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you,
and be gracious to you. The Lord lift his countenance upon you, and
give you peace.
Michelle
Tammy,
Thank you for keeping us posted on how your daughter is doing. I agree
with the other posters, that it is hard to find the words to say to
you. Thank goodness the Spirit gives us those words when they are
beyond our ability to come up with. Blessings on you and your family.
We will certainly keep you in prayer for God's sustaining and
comforting hand to be upon you.
In Christ,
Susan in Wa.
I just came home from the death of one of my beloved church members. A
saintly 90 year old man who loved Jesus and had one of the sweetest
spirits of anyone I know. He and his wife have been married for 63
years. If there is anything that can speak to the unity of two, it is
a marriage such as theirs. She said many times today, I don't want to
live without Clarence. I fully expect her to join him in the not too
distant future, because they have lived life with one common purpose
for so many years, and their love for each other was centered and
focused on their mutual love and commitment to Jesus Christ. 17:24
says," Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may
be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me
because you loved me before the foundation of the world." That has
more significance to me tonight. It also makes me think of Paul's
words, "For to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Even for a 90 year
old man, who has lived a long and fulfilled life, those words are hard
to swallow right now, I can only imagine that it infinitely more
difficult to swallow for Tammy. Difficult day. I need to get some
sleep.
Susan in Wa.
Now that it is late in the day I am just beginning to find a direction
in the lessons. The focus in in Acts, the story of Paul and Silas with
the slave girl and later with the jailer.
Revelation reminds us that in the comng of Jesus, we have returned to
the Garden of Eden, a symbiotic reationship, a holy communion, with
God.
In this thrid section of the High Priestly Prayer we are remnded that
through the Paschal Mystery we share in the glory and love of the
Father and the Son and have been given His name.
The Lesson and the Gospel speak to the inner strength of Paul and
Silas, their ability to transcend thier situation, to overcome their
suffering, to be set free in the midst of their captivity, to know
Christ as intimate.
It is this that the jailer hungers for, this is the the meaning of
salvation: To live the life of God in the midst of this world.
It is the message of the church to enable one another to so live that
we may minister to those who are enslaved by the world (slave girl and
jailer) and to bring them forth out of darkness into light.
Paul and Silas are able to do this because of their faith and love; we
are to so live.
tom in ga
To Sparky in Mn,
So how profound is that? WOW! Thanks for sharing your words on the
Trinity. If we can truly wrap our heads and hearts around Father, Son
and Holy Spirit as one, and not three separate entities loosely
related, and then base our lives with one another based on Jesus'
prayer that we too be one as he and the Father and Spirit are one, oh
what a different picture we would see in the church and world.
Susan in Wa.
Help . . . . I was asked to do the children's sermon TOMORROW using
this scripture. I only have 3-5 minutes to do it. Any suggestions????
The children are usually pretty young. Thanks for any and all ideas
you can give me. 5-22-'04 @12:56pm
To the person needing a children's sermon
Although I am not preaching tomorrow, and have been looking this week
only to experience the comments as a fellow ordained person, I found
myself wondering what I would do if I suddenly had your
responsibility. I reflected on Jesus prayer that we would become as
the Godhead, one. I thought of a story I heard some30 years ago, about
a school trip to the zoo, where the children after viewing the animals
were gifted by the teacher with balloons. They all danced around with
glee over their brightly colored balloons. Suddenly one of the
children accidently let go of her balloon, and all the children looked
at her sad eyes as she stood the only one without a balloon. One child
suddenly let go of his balloon and smiled at his classmate as he
pointed with glee the lost of his balloon. Then one by one and finally
as a group, all the children had let go of their balloons. They then
danced all together as one.
Now I know in this day of ecological concerns this might not be the
best story, but some take on a way we can imminate Jesus message of us
becoming unified might be the way to go.
God's blessing on you as you prepare for your all important message to
the children
Shalom, bammamma
DPSERS..
It is me..Tammy. Went to Kelly's app. yesterday only to find her body
is failing. Dr. wouldn't let us go home without hospice as she was
concerned that we may be left to face tough moments alone. Hospice
came this morning. Kelly is in a great deal of pain and her organs are
beginning to fail. She is 16 and fully aware she is dying. She just
wants to stop hurting. Needless to say, I found someone to take my
preaching post in the morning as It is the Seniors day and it is to be
a day of celebration. If I preach it will be a day about us and the
celebration will be lost. Pray for peace in Kelly's heart and strength
in mine. God is so gracious and ever present, but I ache like never
before. I knew this day was coming, but I had plans for the next few
weeks with her..and I don't get them and I am not happy! But again,
god is ever present and ever gracious!
Thanks for the gift of prayers and love tammy in texas
God willing, I'll be on the pulpit in about two hours' time, preaching
from John 17. I'm a new DPS'er and find the contributions in this
forum very helpful.
What Tammy has shared with us and the reactions of DPSer's following
on that have, I think, everything to do with our Lord's prayer in John
17. What really matters, is not the different ways each of us may
understand baptism or the way God inspired his Word, but that we as
followers of Christ love and support each other.
Tammy, I'll be telling our congregation about you and your daughter
and about DPS. And we will pray for you. And the Father, Son and Holy
Spirit is with you.
Johan, South Africa
Earlier in Chapter 17 Jesus is speaking/praying to God about the
disciples, in v.20 he includes those who believe in me though their
word (NASB).
But what is he asking of God. In v.17 he is asking that God sanctify
them (disciples, + other believers). Then in v.21 we could clarify
that they (disciples + other believers) may all be one when they have
been sanctified.
I think Jesus message of unity is based in our understanding and
living in sanctification. It is a symbiotic relationship that begins
on the path to holiness. If it does not we have nothing to offer or
share with those whom we are to be unified.
This is evident in v.23 where Jesus states that the immediate result
of the believers' unity is perfection and the full result is that the
perfection be a message to the world that God sent Jesus and God loves
us as he loves Jesus.
So our being nice to each other just ain't gonna cut it. Real unity
requires us to be sactified people first.
Blessings, John in IL
bammamma,
Thank you very much for the wonderful story! It made me smile
imagining it! Very good idea! Thank you so very much. KM
Dear Tammy in Texas,
My heart goes out to you and your daughter . . .I do not know much
about y'alls ordeal but, I wish you both peace and love. My daughter,
Sarah, has a WBC disorder and has had multiple organ failure and many
other serious problems since she was 9 months old; she is now 20. I'm
very grateful for every day I have with her; as I am very sure you are
with your daughter. If you ever want to write to me this is my e-mail
address: km77520@yahoo.com. I'm not sure if I could/should give this
but I feel a connection with you. By the way I am in TX also. I moved
around Houston to be near the medical center here . . .it is one of
the best. I am a good listener. I know a little of the pain you are
dealing with. God bless and keep you, your daughter, and your family
in this time and always.
KM (Keleigh . . .pronounced 'Kelly') !!
Dear Tammy in Texas,
There are no words, only the love of Christ to uphold you. As another
mother, my love and prayers are with you.
Joy in London
Tammy,
I obviously didn't read more than the last post from Bammama before I
wrote. I too pray for your daughter's peace to come, soon rather than
after more days of pain and discomfort. No one would expect you to
preach, you are where you need to be, at her side. I trust that
between God and Kelly they will work out the details of what will
happen next, and when.
Our prayers are with you "through the Valley of this shadow",
pulpitt in ND
