Scripture Text (NRSV)
John 16:12-15
16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear
them now.
16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all
the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever
he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
16:14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and
declare it to you.
16:15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said
that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Comments:
I've got Confirmation this week, so will probably be selecting
something off-Lectionary.
I want to thank everyone for their wonderful contributions to the
Pentecost Sunday postings! With each new input, I had a new direction
to think about. I love choices, and I appreciate you DPS'ers offering
so many wonderful ones.
Peace and Blessings, KyHoosierCat
We see here the interworkings of Creator, Sustainer, Redeemer. I
suspect Jesus words here help us see the desire the Godhead has for
all.
Shalom, bammamma
Trinity & 60th anniversary of D-day. I'd like to link the two. Any
ideas? In anticipation! Rev. in UK
This is huge! The diciples have traveled with the Son of God for three
years. I had a house guest once for only a year, by the end of that I
knew more about him than I wanted to. Three years and they only saw
the tip of the iceberg. Three years and they still had troubles
realizing the reality of the situation in front of them. Why? Two
reasons, one, while we think we are smart, we are not. The other, God,
His Kingdom, and Master plan are so big that we can not start to
comprehend it.
As humans we learn from teachers and experiances. God, Jesus and the
Holy Spirit are, of course, the perfect teachers. There is a method to
their madness. We learned from watching the experiances of a Jewish
family through the old Testament. We learned from the life of Jesus
setting an example and teaching. God, through His Son, literaly coming
down here to show us how it's done! Because it is more information
than we could soak in at the time, did He leave us hanging? No, God
sent His Spirit to teach us. I often comment how lucky we are to have
the information flow (a little scary after the tower of Babel) that we
do. We have access to many Spirit filled teachings accumulated through
the years. With all this, including guidance from the Spirit, we can
bear a little more information about the Kingdom now. We still can
never comprehend the magnicance of it, but the more we learn, the more
we are moved to glorifying God because of His Love and Grace for
undeserving sinners like me. I thank God for His love and mercy, Jesus
for his teaching and ultimate sacrifice, and the Spirit for leading me
to God's Kingdom.
You can't see me now but I have tears coming down my cheeks, God is so
big and we are so small. I don't know why, exactly, but He takes time
to love each of us, in a perfect love, one we have never experianced
before. Glory be to God!
The Spirit, sent by the Father, reveals God's truth by glorifying the
Son and making him known.
I'm new to my congregation (only 6 mos. as pastor here) but have
already figured out that there are many Modalists here. It is the
festival of the Holy Trinity and I'm going to preach directly against
the "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" (heretical) model of the Trinity.
God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) created all that exists. God
(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) saved--and continues to save--whomever
has been graced with the gift of salvation. And God (Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit) continues to sanctify--make holy--all that has been
graced with the gift of sanctification.
And as a Lutheran clergyperson, I'm becoming more and more
disappointed--and disgusted--with the church's desire to get away from
the Trinity! Maybe I feel so strongly because I'm a convert to the
faith--I don't know. But I do know that I'm offended when others fail
to recognize that God ALWAYS works as the Trinity.
And, for the record, I think it's our own fault for not teaching it
well enough.
PB in PA
PB in PA:
I'm a Lutheran pastor too. I think there's a lot of difficulty
understanding and explaining the Trinity because it's rather difficult
to understand. God is a relationship, a community, and we are baptized
into a community of believers. There's some significance to that. But
as far as our misunderstanding of the Trinity and even the heresy of
modalism, you can maybe even accuse Luther of that. In the Large
Catechism when talking about the creed he writes:
"But to make it most clear and simple for teaching to children, we
shall briefly sum up the entire Creed in three articles, according to
the three persons of the Godhead, to whom all that we believe is
related. The first article, of God the Father, explains creation; the
second, of the Son, redemption; the third, of the Holy Spirit,
sanctification. Hence the Creed may be briefly comprised in these few
words: 'I believe in God the Father, who created me; I believe in God
the Son, who redeemed me; I believe in the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies
me.' One God and one faith, but three persons, and therefore three
articles or confessions."
SEE!?
I agree with you. The Creator is Father, Son, and Spirit. The Redeemer
is Father, Son, and Spirit. The Sanctifier is Father, Son, and Spirit.
It's just really hard to get your head around.
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Returning from foreign travel, U.S. citizens are obliged to declare
their purchases. Travelers make a final inventory of what they have
acquired and come clean.
Making declarations happens in other areas of life too. Lovers declare
their affection for one another, which may lead to a further
declaration of love and fidelity in marriage. In early July, Americans
celebrate the ratification of the ground-breaking Declaration of
Independence, acknowledging and declaring that "we hold these truths
to be self-evident...."
In the midst of John's lengthy narrative of Jesus' final meal with his
disciples--it goes on for five chapters--Jesus declares certain things
to and for them. He declares that the Spirit of truth will come and
guide them into all the truth, a declaration both profound and
provocative. For one thing, it continues the conversation begun last
week in chapter 14 when Jesus anticipated the Advocate, the Holy
Spirit sent by the Father. Further, this Spirit talk anticipates
Jesus' breathing on the disciples after his resurrection in chapter 20
with the declaration, "Receive the Holy Spirit." The sound waves of
this proclamation energized the lives of the disciples, for upon
receiving the Spirit, they went forth to witness to the world.
The long season of the church before us presents ample opportunity for
us also to breathe in the Spirit and exhale the truth of the triune
God. Our redemptive "declaration of independence" begins when we allow
the Spirit of truth to guide us into all the truth. The Spirit bears
fruit in lives that follow where the Spirit leads. The catechism
reminds us that the Holy Spirit calls us, forgives all sins, and
raises us from the dead.
This enlivening Spirit supplies the breath for our proclamation and
the steam for service every day and in every place. The Spirit
sustains us in our sufferings and provides the buoyancy for our hope,
as Paul says in Romans 5. Called and sent by the Spirit of truth, we
have much to declare.
Robert Brusic in "Sundays & Seasons 2004"
I could tell you things, but you can't bear them now...Most preachers
are familiar with that phrase...How many times have we known things,
saw things, but knew the congregation wasn't ready yet?
The Spirit of Truth- I am reminded of A Few Good Men's line You can't
handle the truth...
Can we handle the truth?
Just some ramblings.... I don't have to preach this week... The
District Superintendent is preaching on the circuit... I don't have to
preach next week either, West Ohio Conference week...heehee
Clerically Blonde in West Ohio (Methsco fan, hello, UNITED RULES!)
John 16
16:12 "I still have many things to say IN LOVE to you, but you IN HATE
cannot bear them now.1 CORIN 13:7-8
16:13 When LOVE, the Spirit of truth, [TRUTH IS NOT THE SPIRIT OF
TRUTH: LOVE OR THE TRUTH ABOUT LOVE IS THE SPIRIT OF all other truth]
comes, he will IN LOVE guide you into all the truth OF LOVE; for he
will not speak on his own IN HATE OF OTHERS BUT IN LOVE OF ALL OTHERS,
but will speak IN LOVE whatever he hears IN LOVE, and he will declare
to you the things that are to come IN LOVE.
16:14 He, LOVE, will glorify me WITH LOVE, because he will take what
is mine IN LOVE and declare it IN lOVE to you.
16:15 All that the Father has IN LOVE is mine. For this reason OF LOVE
I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
amadeus
Clerically Blonde, has United moved yet? MTSOfan
Hi, I guess the concept I'm working with is that in Genesis when we
read, "God said," we are witnessing the Triune God in action. God, as
Creator/Father speaks the Word/Son/Redeemer and that spoken Word is
propelled by the very breath of God aka the Holy Spirit. This
correlates nicely with Jesus' words regarding the Holy Spirit's speech
(John 16:13) For the children's message this week, I'm going to ask
them to hold their breath and try to say something at the same time.
I'm then passing out emu feathers (courtesy of my cousin's emus) and
have them speak a word with the feather in front of their mouths so
they can see what their breath can do. Also, for PB in PA, be of good
cheer, I just finished my second year in a Lutheran seminary and in
both history and confessions classes, Modalism was thoroughly debunked
as the heresy it is. I sometimes wonder though if the chief problem is
that we humans are trying to explain a God so far beyond our
comprehension that we get caught in our own inadequacies. Seminary
Cindy
My theology professor at VTS, Dr. Walter Eversley, once said, the
Trinity and the Dual Nature of Christ are what we classify as "dogma."
Then he told us that Dogma means: "After 300+ years we are tired of
trying to define this. Let's stop talking about this and move on."
In other words, the Trinity is not God's truth, but our best attempt
at defining the undefinable.
He also said, "On Trinity Sunday, if you open your mouth to explain
the Trinity, anything you say will be heresy. (Which is why most
clergy avoid preaching about it on Trinity Sunday or assign it to the
assistants.)
To which Charlie Price agreed and said "That's why the Nicene Creed
comes after the sermon. Because it contains an unspoken
'Never-the-less . . ."
VicOfNick Ken Howard St. Nicholas Church, Darnestown
I am preaching John 16:12-15 but I won't speak on the Trinity since it
was only a minor point in the text. Besides, how would knowing more
about the Trinity help my congregation?
I will focus on the work of the Holy Spirit instead (continue on the
coming of the Holy Spirit from last week).
Last week, we see the work of the Holy Spirit in convict the world
(this is the earlier component of His work in v.8), and this week we
will study the work of the Spirit in us, namely guide us into all the
truth.
Here are a few key things to consider:
v.12: God allows for a progressive nature of revelation. (The derive
to the doctrine of the Trinity is one of the example).
BUT, how do we know our understand of truth not derive into heresies
of "new" truths?
v.13 contains the bulk of the answer:
- The emphasis here of "all the truth" is the word "All" of a singular
"truth" (Word study of "truth" in John will be useful here to define
"what is truth")
- "Guide" Future active verb hodegeo (from hodos, way, hegeomai, to
lead). This verb stressed the responsibility of following, responding
from us.
- "Into all the truth" the Gk. here was "ev", "in". Some understands
the leading as “along the way of truth”. This has a lot of application
for the ordinary Christian.
- "things that are to come", from the vantage point of the last
discourse, it will encompass not only the Lord's Retutn but also His
death and Ressurection. How are those events will effect the
Christian?
- "declare" (or "disclose"), repeat 3 times in this passage. Gk. "anaggello"
from ana "between" and aggelos "to deliver a message". The source of
the revelation are always from God (which ensure its unity with what
God/Jesus had). It also involved us in the process. To be guided by
the Spirit requires us to be active recipients of this process.
- v.15: Why did Jesus had to emphasize this point twice? Don't know
yet.
Coho, Midway City.
As another Lutheran pastor, I'm wondering if I've had an incorrect
understanding of "modalism" for a number of years. I always understood
modalism as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit existing sequentially.
That is, the Father was in existence in creation, then, when a Savior
was needed he modulated (changed into) Jesus, and then Jesus modulated
into the Holy Spirit who exists with us today. I've always taught that
part of the reason the Nicene Creed was written was to combat modalism
"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten
of his Father before all worlds." Craig -- Nebraska
Gee, I haven't read the posts and the first thing I think about when I
read this is "I heard THAT!"
Isn't it frustrating to be so energetic and passionate and have so
many things to say and whenever you try, you get barely a response???
Yet, somehow, I "hear" Jesus being patient and gentle with the
disciples, not frustrated like me.
I mentioned "finding your voice" in last week's sermon. My first
inclination is to explore the feeling of having something to say and
it not being the right thing at the right time. How it is just an
indication that people are at different places and times in their
lives.
I'm 42, high-energy, still at the beginning of my ministry, with high
hopes and passion for doing God's work, helping in racial
reconciliation, and being a voice of prophesy for the future. My WW II
folks are ready to sit back and consider the end of their lives.
And, I do know that they're considering the end of their lives because
they tell me they are.
Is it fair for me to be frustrated? no. Am I anyhow? Yes.
A little Tuesday morning venting! Thank you all for "being there."
Sally in GA
PB in PA - what/ who are Modalists?
Sally
Modalism The error that there is only one person in the Godhead who
manifests himself in three forms or manners: Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit.
Monarchianism Monarchianism (mono - "one"; arche - "rule") was an
error concerning the nature of God that developed in the second
century A.D. It arose as an attempt to maintain Monotheism and refute
tritheism. Unfortunately, it also contradicts the orthodox doctrine of
the Trinity. Monarchianism teaches that there is one God as one
person: the Father. Please see Heresies for more information.
Source: http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_l-o.htm
Sally,
Thank you for voicing the question that came to my mind. Was I asleep
(or preoccupied with my full-time job or some family problem) when
Modalists came up?
Boy can I identify with your position of high energy and your WW2
folks in their coasting mode. I know we are inevitably going to face a
number of funerals in the next few months/years and it will change the
face and the culture of this congregation.
KS in ME
Any one out thewre not going to preach the Trinity and looking at the
passages for Proper 5 ? 1 Kings 17:8-16, (17-24) Psalm 146 Galatians
1:11-24 Luke 7:11-17 This is the Raising of the son of the widow at
Nain!
I would love to hear from you...tatat298@netscape.net
Dear UK
A tie to D-Day which I see and will most likely use is to talk about
D-Day in a simplified way from an American perpective. Roosevelt
willed for Europe to be delivered from Nazi domination, Ike in
obedience to his comander and chief planned it and made it possible,
the armed forces made it a reality in the life of Europeans.
Especially if you expand the John reading to start at verse 5 instead
of 12 you can see how the Father "sent" Jesus, Jesus in obedience in
his life,death and resurrection made human deliverance from the
domination of sin possible, the Spirit makes it a reality......So
there you are left with a nice little economic Trinity (the old hard
boiled egg, shell, white and yolk) from which I plan to go on and
explain that the Econmic Trinity in itself isn't quite the full
explanation going on to speak about mutual indwelling and that Father,
Son, Spirit all mutually act in Creation, Redemption and
Sanctification...this is hinted at in verse 15 where Jesus says, "All
that belongs to the Father is mine." (NIV) Have fun! VG in PA
Dear UK
A tie to D-Day which I see and will most likely use is to talk about
D-Day in a simplified way from an American perpective. Roosevelt
willed for Europe to be delivered from Nazi domination, Ike in
obedience to his comander and chief planned it and made it possible,
the armed forces made it a reality in the life of Europeans.
Especially if you expand the John reading to start at verse 5 instead
of 12 you can see how the Father "sent" Jesus, Jesus in obedience in
his life,death and resurrection made human deliverance from the
domination of sin possible, the Spirit makes it a reality......So
there you are left with a nice little economic Trinity (the old hard
boiled egg, shell, white and yolk) from which I plan to go on and
explain that the Econmic Trinity in itself isn't quite the full
explanation going on to speak about mutual indwelling and that Father,
Son, Spirit all mutually act in Creation, Redemption and
Sanctification...this is hinted at in verse 15 where Jesus says, "All
that belongs to the Father is mine." (NIV) Have fun! VG in PA
The Spirit of truth... In today's world people are asking, "Who's
truth? Yours or mine? Who says what truth is?" This is the
congregation to which we are speaking. Thoughts? PH in OH
No thoughts on the Truth idea, except to say it reminds me of a song
from Jesus Christ Superstar. Pilate asks Jesus "What is truth? Is
truth unchanging law? We all have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"
Thank you to everyone who responded to my comments! I'm grateful to
know that I'm not the only one who struggles with the whole notion of
the Trinity. Tom in Ontario, I think you're right in that maybe even
Luther has a hand in the misunderstandings. And I heartily agree with
everyone who has said that we're trying to understand a God whose
identity is not able to be comprehended by simple human minds. But
part of my point in all of this is that we don't have to understand
God. God understands human shortcomings and loves us anyway!
To the ones asking about modalism: The analogy I've used to understand
and teach this (and which is the only analogy I've created that has
also been approved by my seminary professor of theology) is that
Modalism puts God into a single "mode" at a time. It says that, as
creator, God acts as "Father." And that, as redeemer, the "Son" acts.
And that the "Holy Spirit" acts as redeemer. But theologically, we
recognize that, no matter what God does, God ALWAYS acts as the
Trinity....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are always tied together. It
is impossible to encounter one without encountering all three.
It doesn't make sense to human minds--it CANNOT make sense to us. But
that's okay. Jesus carried the cross and saves all who follow him,
whether or not we can understand it all! That's what I call grace!
PB in PA
What I remember about modalism is that it's described by the image of
H2O in its different states, that God somehow morphs, as one person
said, depending on the need at the time. That completely denies the
understanding of community as inherent to God's nature.
I read a sermon by David Miller, I believe from the Protestant Hour,
2001 (textweek.com), and he talks about what a gift it is to find
"intimate fellowship" with the communal nature of God. I loved this
piece about Andrei Rublev's icon (sorry it's so long):
"Rublev's Icon of the Trinity shows three figures--three divine
messengers--who are visiting the Old Testament patriarch Abraham. They
sit at a small table, each figure representing a person of the Holy
Trinity, and as they sit, they point to a chalice on the table, a
symbol of God's overflowing love. But they sit only on three sides of
the table. There's an open side, and one of the figures points to the
vacant space inviting the viewer--inviting you--to sit down with the
three persons and share fellowship. The icon invites us to share the
overwhelming divine love that exists among the three figures at the
table and to become a participant in sharing the mystery of divine
life and love. It pictures God's great desire to draw us in and to
share the divine life with us. Rublev, I think, pictures the
experience of the Holy Trinity into which I had been drawn as I
returned from communion and knelt in the pew that day."
Sunday is Holy Communion for us and my last Sunday as well, so it
seems a nice fit to me. Given that Annual Conference is between now
and then, it's a good thing!
Laura in TX
PH in OH asks "Who says what truth is?" Well, it has been my
experience that the person with the deepest pocket thinks he/she holds
the truth in the Church. Then, the person who has logged the most
hours in church volunteerism thinks he/she holds the truth. No, wait,
what about the person who comes from the Pillar Family that's been
there since 1896? Don't they know what's best for everyone, according
to their own family's agenda?
When the truth is self-serving, when the truth is high-handed, when
the truth seeks to separate rather than gather, it is suspiciously not
the truth. At least not God's truth. I learned too late that these
Truth Holders want to be listened to. They want to feel validated for
their interest in the church. But they also want to be right, and
therein lies the problem, at least with me when I want to be right,
too.
I am a firm believer that we are not always really reading the full
story of the people we disagree with. Do we know why they feel the way
they do? Have we heard their story, or do we just think we know it?
People feel the way they do for reasons. Let them tell the reasons,
and there may be some reconciliation between their truth and our
truth. We are free to share our story, too, to tell why we feel
exactly the opposite. Then at least all our cards will be out on the
table. There is nothing we can't work on together if we know exactly
what we are dealing with. If something remains unsaid, if some
pertinent information is withheld, we cannot really deal with any
truth; we can only deal with what we have in front of us - an
incomplete picture. It requires trust to lay it all out, but trust can
be built.
The Spirit of God is a unifying force. We tend to want to think the
Spirit only speaks correctly to us or those who think like we do, but
that may not be true. The Spirit of God wants reconciliation first and
foremost between those in close proximity to each other, and then we
can extend the hand of friendship into unknown territory. Pentecost
began with the people gathered in one place, different people with
different stories, uniting them into one circle of people who
understood each other first and now had one great story in common as
the basis of their evangelism into the world.
The truth of God unites. It listens. It cares about the story of the
people involved. The truth of God is Spirit-led, it is not steeped in
being right so others must be wrong. The Spirit brings us under the
power of the love of God and Jesus Christ for all people, even those
who irritate us or step on our sense of rightness. If we are to linger
in the differences we have, when will we get to the shared story and
the evangelism? What good will the church do in the world if we're
caught up in our local tiffs about rightness and wrongness.
We may BE right. But first and foremost, we are called to love one
another, as Christ has loved us. And loving one another means spending
time to know what makes the other person tick.
God help me to live by this credo myself, for I continue to fall
short.
Too embarrassed at the preachiness to sign this
After thinking about it for a while, I really don't see the harm in "modalism".
Didn't Bart come to the conclusion that the economic Trinity (modalistic)was,in
the end, the same as the essential Trinity (non-modalistic)? For my
money being overly dogmatic is more of a problem than being a heretic.
For Lutheran (and other)preachers, I think that the most important
question is not what is the doctrine of the Trinity but what is the
Good News of the Trinity. jw in tx
Just to get on my own back before anyone else does, there are subtle
differences between the Economic Trinity/Imminent Trinity and Modalism
& Non-Modalism. There are even two subtle kinds of modalism (there is
the functional and the "sequential" one that the other Lutheran Criag
mentioned.) Here is a handy-dandy outline of the Trinity and it's
nuances: http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_02.htm
Barth said something about the distinctness of the Trinity stemming
from the way it has been revealed by God. That would combine a lot of
supposed heracies and would deal with Jesus "withholding " things that
we "cannot bear now". If, of course, you are gifted enough to preach
about those things. I am not. jw in tx P.S. I still say the important
thing is the Good News.
The congregation with whom I serve really needs to know that the
Triune God is still communicating with them. I have performed 28
funerals in the 23 months of my time with them. Their church is
withering away; they are disconnected from the community in which the
church is situated; they are really demoralized. I have decided that I
am here to help them discern and choose their future.
They don't really need a sermon on the classical aspects of
trinitarian doctrine alone. They need to know about the Trinity as the
practice of God among them. Just what is the Spirit declaring to them?
How do they know that it's God's voice they're hearing? Right now
there is a real sense of God's absence to these brothers and sisters.
On Sunday, I'm being asked to bring the good news that indeed God is
not absent, but working to declare the truth...perhaps a truth that
these good people would rather not hear, that I would rather not hear
or bear.
The grace in this text is that Jesus is assuring those who are feeling
abandoned that God is and will be present, that he is and will be
present, to the community called out in his name.
Now, how shall I open the text in such a way that they experience the
same assurance?
Sam in Alabam
Greetings all,
I will say first that I am an unapologetic Trinitarian. I understand
that in my denomination (the United Church of Canada) I am in the
minority on that particular issue. This saddens me to the core, and
leaves me to wonder whether we are in danger of throwing the
theological baby out with the bathwater, or worse, if we already have.
My understanding of God as "one in three/three in one" (to quote a
prof of mine) is apparently hard-wired into me, because I simply
cannot grasp what has become an increasingly Unitarian trend in the
UCC. And I say Unitarian quite intentionally...which is to say that
even a bit of Modalism would be nice!
What happens to a Christian church when Jesus becomes son of God only
in the same sense that you and I are sons and daughters of God? (This
is the typical argument I have heard) For me, it's all about the
unique nature of Christ. Jesus is/was not the same as you and I.
I preach the Trinity because I think it IS important to the life of my
congregation. I will not argue against anyone else's right to believe
in a Unitarian God....but when you come into a Christian community(at
least MY community), you will hear about God as Creator, Christ and
Spirit.
It's also a communion Sunday, so the idea of "do this in remembrance
of me" feels like it's resonating at this point in the week.
SueCan
Sam in Alabam,
In "Experiencing God", Henry T. Blackaby says "You come to know God by
experience as you obey Him and He accomplishes His work through you."
I serve a similar congregation, but which is (by God's grace & despite
me) changing. I think that the above statement sums it up pretty well.
It's the application that's tough!
Thank you, those who explained "modalism" to me. I figured the nature
of the word sounded like what it is, but it's best to be sure. I,
unfortunately, don't know too much about the various heresies out
there.
Sally
I think attempting to tie the Trinune nature of God to D-day is the
ultimate stretch. Why would anyone do that? Is it some type of feel
good sermon to pat yourself on the back?
I believe that to link the destruction or the glorification of war
with God is a serious violation.
To the person distressed about the D-Day tie-in, The invasion on D-Day
was a movement by the allies to rid the world of an enemy who would
destroy humanity, to replace hatred with peace, to rebuild what had
been dismantled, to offer hope to the hopeless.
How is that so foreign to the Triune God?
To SueCan and others who are considering the importance of the
Trinity. I agree that it is indeed important how we address God and
how we understand God's nature. I too am trinitarian in my theology.
In this conversation we are having this week on this site, I was
reminded of the years I lived and served in New England. In many small
towns, on the town square, there is a "First Church" which is now UU
and across the street there is a "Trinitarian Church" usually UCC.
This came out of the Deist movement of the late 17 and early 18
hundreds. As I heard the history of these small New England towns
there was a break when some left the First Churches on the square to
be more able to worship the triun God. Theolgoy is important. How we
think about God and how we speak about God is essential. Of course the
hard part is making it so people will perk up their ears and inspiring
them to think about God in a different way so they can live a
different way. I am a little sensitive on the issue as I am UM and the
Annual Conference is meeting this week. It seems more and more people
in the church are going for 'what works' and leaving behind all the
wonderful and in my mind time-tested teachings of the church. Avis In
KY
I too would call myself a trinitarian - but I wonder if our
understandings or misunderstandings do not sometimes get in the way of
our preaching what people need to hear. I am tying my preaching to the
Ps for the day that simply speaks of the majest y of God and the
Westminster cathechism that calls us to "enjoy" - even when I can't
understand God, i still can enjoy God. I don't know how they get the
creamy centre in the Cadbury bar, but i do enjoy them in my life.
SueCan, i too am UCC (United church of canada) and I baptize in the
name of the triune God, i bless my congregation in the name of the
triune God - i don't understand how the three in one works but to me
it is God. Deke of the North
To Jason in GA
I'm glad you asked the question, " Is anyone working with Romans 5 1:5
only?", I am. My topic is " It's a matter of choice". I will give some
personal life experiences of suffering and follow up with " Hope in
Christ"..... let the scripture give the answer. Why? Because the
"word" is sharper then a two edged sword.
This is an easy one for me. EVERYBODY experiences suffering in this
world. Yes, some more then others.
However, it really is a "matter of choice"............. I choose
Christ,
Gary in Missouri
I just slogged through a semester of "Intro to Doctrine," and we spent
some time wrestling with the heresies that pop up anytime we try to
explain God. My question for preaching is this - Once you fully debunk
Modalism are your people any closer to understanding God? Maybe the
reason not to devote the whole sermon to the doctrines is so we can
spend some time on the Gospel. Mention the dangers of trying to get
God down to a managable quantity, note Jesus' words that there is
always more than we can understand, then tell what Good News we do
know, that God will continue to work with and through us until All
Truth is available. There is hope and joy in that! Going on toward
perfection, tom in TN(USA)
Words to the Song from Jesus Christ Superstar. Jesus comes before
Pilate the second time. Jesus- there maybe a kingodm for me somewhaere-
if I only knew
P: Then your're a king J: It's you that say I am. I look for truth and
find that I get damned P: But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths- are mine the same as yours? mob-Crucity him!
I am baptizing a young man and his son this week. I am wondering about
the first line. "16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but
you cannot bear them now." I know that from my own journey, we grow in
faith and can not bear all of the things that God asks often until we
know the truth. The Spirit that convicts and convinces also helps us
bear the truth. Nancy-Wi
We are finishing a series of sermons and church wide sunday school
looking at the purpose driven church. For this sunday I will tie in
D-day through the purpose aspect. The allies were able to come
together because of the common purpose of defeating facism and the
terror of Hitler. The invasion worked because for the first time in
history, countries put aside national agendas and perhaps harsh
memories and feelings for the purpose of defeating the common enemy.
As far as Trinity sunday goes, certainly all of the allied countries
were separate but also united. Distinct countries coming together to
form 1 allied power.
Just thoughts.
ApolloGuy..tx
Hi, For those interested in exploring the heresy of modalism the
following two sites may be helpful. Leon in NC<><
1) http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/51h011.html Christian
History, Summer 1996 A Hammer Struck At Heresy What exactly happened
at the famous Council of Nicea, when the Roman emperor convened some
250 quarreling Christian bishops? by Robert Payne
2) http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/51h020.html Christian
History, Summer 1996 Sifting Through the Christ Controversies A quick
summary of the competing schools of thought. The Editors
MTSOFan,
No united hasn't moved yet. I wish they would...nice facility at the
other place. One building where the cafeteria is condemned, you
know... they closed it. Cafeteria in Student Lounge now where book
stroe is. I love the United Chapel, my favorite place...peace and
comfort there. (Maybe they can move it) LOL NOT!
I don't have to preach this Sunday, Just do Children's time...Pinky,
the puppet bird! But, I am doing a funeral Service tomorrow. and I
worked on my Emmaus talk, "Obstacles to Grace" and got it done... So,
been busy with ministry...
Next Sunday, driving to Lakeside ,OH....So, my Lay speaker is
preaching...They like Mark...he's good...his filling in June 6th and
June 20th for another church....LOL I grabbed him back in April, I
knew the preachers would call!
Clerically Blonde in west ohio
Someone early on in the week mentioned the Jack Nicholson's
character's line in "A Few Good Men," "You can't handle the truth!"
I HATE people telling me I'm too young to know better, or I'll learn
better later on, or that they're wise and I'm ignorant, or any other
head-patting condescension.
Yet, isn't that just like Jesus in the Gospel of John. Condescending,
egomaniacal ("I am the way, the truth, the light ..." among others).
Maybe it's why I'm not so drawn to the 4th Gospel as I am to others.
Still, there it is in v. 15 - "He will take what is mine and declare
it to you." In other words, we, too, can become condescending talking
heads!!!
No, just kidding! One thing the Gospel of John does well is to speak
to deep-down human longing: deep down we want to be included, to be
assured that we're ok, to be lifted up. Deep down we long for
something better than what we've had so far in life. Ultimately, we
are included in the "something better."
musing away
Sally in gA
Clerically Blonde and Sally: I've always hated that much-quoted line,
"You can't handle the truth!" I think it's meant to highlight the
extreme arrogance of Jack Nicholson's character.
I think truth is not so much a declaration as an invitation.
Declarations ("this is the truth") have a way of turning pointed and
into sharp weapons. Invitations are open-handed, generous and
welcoming. That is the way I understand Jesus being The Truth: the
reality who welcomes us into God's reality. (Shades of the Rublev
icon...)
LF
I too find the attempt to link the doctrine of the Holy Trinity with
D-day distressing. People in the US seem to really misunderstand
Christianity. American Protestantism Theology is little more than
ethnocentrism civil religion. In God’s name we kill and destroy and
call it good.
Jurgan Moltmann reminds us that God is love and love happens in
community. He also speaks of the Trinity as an “open system” taking
history and creation into itself. To link the action of a destructive
invasion to God’s love seems somewhat beneath the message Jesus
commissions us to take to the world. No wonder Americans have a warped
religious system. We want to triangulate to attempt to strengthen our
own self image.
Triangulation is what happpened in the Fall. Improved self-image was
the triangulation that wrought brokeness between God and humanity. The
devil said, "You will not die...you will be like God."
The action of the Trinity in the course of human affairs is God's
Triangulation which is redemptive instead of destructive.
Invoking the moral high ground is triangulation of one community of
people over and against another whereas in God's eyes all are equally
fallen. The kingdom of God transcends all earthly kingdoms and it is
sin to conduct ourselves otherwise.
War never glorifies God, but maybe that one of the many things we're
not willing to "bear" now.
Pr. del in Ia
LF - me, too! I know the way he delivered it, it was supposed to
reveal his insecurity underneath the arrogance (thus, he yells it),
but I've always seen it as over-acted and high-school-style
pseudo-deep. Really, to reveal the true arrogance, it would have been
delivered quietly, as a statement of fact, a TRUTH, if you will. There
would have been no need to yell back. True confidence doesn't need to
assert itself. My problem isn't the line itself, but the way he
delivered it - but far be it from me to criticize Nicholson!!!! :-)
Recall the old Jack Palance commercial, "Confidence is sexy, isn't
it?"
but I digress...
Sally in GA
My sermon on Sunday will deal with individuals blessed by the trinity
and having access to wisdom, a part of the wholeness of God. I'm using
Proverb 8, as the central focus of my sermon. I am declaring that all
persons are a part of the Creator's work, and as such are vital to
creation. All persons can be redeemed no matter what age, and all
persons can be sustained by God's grace. But once we know this, it
behooves us to act with wisdom.
One way to act with wisdom is to discern our own responsibility and
not try to project that responsibility on others. It is especially
important not to try and put it on another kind, be it a different
culture, race or gender. And this includes a different generation.
They must discern their own responsibility. It is easy for one
generation to feels another generation needs to do things the same
way. Perhaps not realizing that God’s purpose and responsibility for
one generation could be different than another.
I was struck by a statement by my 4 year old granddaughter when I
accidentally invaded her space thinking I was being helpful. Gently
she said to me, "Grandmother, I need privacy." I have found myself
wondering when I have invaded other people’s space, thinking I was
being helpful, but not knowing that they really needed privacy, and by
invading that generation’s space neglected my own generational
responsibility. I no as a part of the Silent generation, There are
things the “greatest generation" ( I respect the name, but dislike the
tonality of it.) must do as it moves toward it's finality (Integrity
verses Despair). I do agree with those who feel put upon by that
generation’s purposes, but there are the things with which the
greatest generation must deal.
Each generation be it Greatest, Silent, baby-boomer, postmodern,
(etc.) need its privacy!
I know this post is long, involved, and rambling, but I hope that
there are some kernels of thoughts to help you put your final thoughts
together. And this discussion has been helpful as I move toward the
conclusion of my sermon development.
Shalom, Bammamma
My sermon this Sunday - one or both of two thesis: A. God is a God of
Relationships (Trinity) and our faith is also a call to be in
relationship with one another. B. The Spirit of Truth comes to guide
our learning after Jesus leaves the earth. The printing press was the
worst thing to happen to religion because it froze a text in time -
but the Spirit continues to reveal truth for today. A God of love and
relationship continues to search the margins of society and call the
otherwise dispised into community. Will we honor their place at the
table?
Terri, California
Hi all: Trinity is not an attempt to "understand" God, is it? Our
lectionary gives us Isaiah's vision in the temple (chapter 6). In this
vision, everything works against his "seeing" God. He says "I saw the
Lord". But then he notes the fact that the royal train (robe) filled
the temple, evidently obscuring human sight. Then there was smoke;
then the prophets sense of unworthiness, evoking in him a sense of
having a mouth too dirty to speak of God. Even the seraphs, the noble
courtiers, covered their eyes so as not to look at holiness. They
covered their feet in reverence. And they flew in obedience. Trinity
is as ineffable as God Himself, and we do well to emphasize this
holiness: The HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, of the angels is the Hebrew way of
expressing what cannot be expressed. I'm almost scared to talk about
"understanding" God. Comments?
GECin Michigan
Bammamma - I deeply value the conversations we've had regarding the
generational/race "thing." I'm inspired by your post, too, because
you've managed by the power of Wisdom to put the "thing" into words.
I, too, live in that dilemma - from the boomer point of view - and
wonder if or when we'll get to a point where we're less concerned with
who's "right" and more concerned on "life together."
Sally in GA
I really don't know what all the fuss is over the doctrine of the
trinity. It is the ground from which we have been given birth. It is
all about grace, love, relationship, diversity in unity.
I think our problem comes from doing what we do best as preachers,
"intellectualizing", trying to find the facts under the mystery. We
need to let go and realize the Trinity expresses the heart of God and
His/Her desire to embrace the "other"
tom in ga
Like many, I have trouble preaching on the Trinity. It leaves my mind
spinning and my congregation fidgiting. However, I have had some
thoughts proded by your discussions that may make for a future sermon.
Something like "Your God is Too Small". I am thinking of the loud
protest of the Moslem world that we Christian's have three Gods and
are thus heritical (I wonder if THEY think that we worship the same
God as some on our side think not?) Not to bash Moslems, but to
reaffirm my own faith, it seems to me that the God who reveals himself
as Father Son and Holy Spirit is more glorious than viewing God and
experiencing God only as omnipotent and transcendent other. ( Do
MOslems experience God or just obey Him?) It is more to me a replay of
the paradox of the cross that through death Jesus brought victory. God
as the Son revealed his mercy and his faithfulness. God as Spirit
reveals the glory that He works in and through the lives of humankind.
Yes, the Trinity is profitable to us because we experience salvation,
guidance, assurance, and love in a way that the strict monotheistic
adherent can not comprehend or share. But, it is to the greater glory
of God that he is Father Son and Holy Spirit (creator, redeemer,
guide). i.e. A coach who wins with less talented players is more
glorious. It would be much simpler as preachers and theologians if we
did not believe in a Triune God, but would we not end up with a God
Too Small? Can we not approach Trinity Sunday with delight rather than
dread. jrbnrnc
I love Pentecost and Trinity Sundays. They are favorite days. I get to
speak more from the heart on those days, sharing how God has moved in
my life or in the life of this congregation, celebrating both the
mysterious and the friend-at-your-side aspects of the Divine. It's
less about educating and more about pondering; it's less about telling
and more about inviting people to be open to God.
We have a special service of Confirmation planned, and once again, I
will be reading a letter I wrote to the two young men who will be
joining the Church. It is a letter of welcome, acceptance, community,
joy, common purpose, and our congregation's prayers for them and
exhortations that the journey of faith is only beginning; it's a
lifelong path. We will celebrate God in every way we know God, and it
will be a day of wonderment. I love Trinity Sunday!!
KHC
It is late in the day and sermons are almost prepared, yet you may
wish to check the page for the first Lesson: Proverbs 8, for I have
offered extensive quotes from Paul Tillich's The Eternal Now, 1963.
The amazing thing is that Paulus seems to have known that one day
these would be our lessons.
tom in ga
Condemning the D-Day invasion which led to the liberation of Europe is
just plain pathetic. You hate yourself and America. You don't deserve
the freedom that those men died for. They had a moral compass. They
knew that they were fighting evil in its purest form. There was love
in every bullet fired. Love that was willing to die to set our fellow
humans free. It was the violent death of Christ that has set us free
of the condemnation of sin. Forgive me, but pacifism makes me want to
PUKE.
PC in GA
Thank you all for your thoughts directing us toward experiencing the
trinity rather than analysing, especially KHC for pointing out the
opportunity to celebrate God in every way that we know God. Most of us
don't think of enjoying God. We may seek God, or fear God, or obey
God. But how about enjoying? We often forget that part. I'm not sure
some of my parishioners would even know how to start... How does one
help people to enjoy God? It really is a day to celebrate!
DGinNYC
The arrival of our "Advocate or Comforter" is D-Day for the Devil.
To Sam in Alabama: how well I can relate to you and your congregation.
I'm also with a predominantely WWII church, one that is fading fast
and needs the hope ot the Triune God to sustain itself. i have done
more funerals than weddings, and a baptism at the local prison is the
only one in three years of ministry. however, through the trinity
(which is also the name of the church!) we live, movve and have our
being (3 parts) and this they understand. I confess to not using the
usual systematic theology approach to trinity sunday, because they
don't want nor would they understand it. they just accept it as truth
- thanks be to God! I hope this helps - knowing there are others of us
inthe same boat!. So, it's onward and upward. revmimi in
LA(loweralabama)
PC in GA, Whoa.If you're gonna puke, do it someplace else. You are
missing the point the truth here. D Day is an illustration of Human
righteousness, not of God's. Human history is short by God's
standards. There is always war. We don't seem to get along because
there is always something else that we want. Let's tell it like it
was. There is no romance in war. D Day was a horrific event where men
were slaughtered by other men. That does not discount the sacrifices
that were made to liberate Europe from evil powers. War does not
resolve the basic problems of humanity. As we can see by the daily
news, even good American soldiers can step over the lines of humanity.
Might doesn't make right. It just means war. Think of the world if we
poured those resources into feeding and healing and educating
everyone. The gift of the Holy Spirit was being able to understand the
Gospel and to witness to it. I hope that you feel better. PSINIA
PC in GA
Thank you for proving my point by claiming the moral high in order to
self justify by triangulating one communiy of people over and against
another when the Bible indeed says "all and fallen short" and again
"for God so loved the world" (notice the word world, not just US).
Love in every bullet?! That's pathetic. Maybe in your Bible Jesus shot
his enemies, but in ours He died for them.
Pr. del in Ia
Those of us post- Vietnam- era folks are hard-pressed to be in the WW
II mindset, when, it almost appears that Vietnam was the first time
citizens questioned their country's actions (though I'm not convinced
that everybody was of one mind prior to Vietnam, or even Korea, for
that matter).
I will never understand your statement, PC, "love in every bullet."
All I can think of is "HUH????" The hubris of that statement is sin
enough - that it is with love that the allied forces of d-day killed
and died because of love for humankind and the desire to (if not
destroy) keep at bay a destructive and dehumanizing regime.
It seems that WW II people who DO know what it is to unify against an
obvious threat don't understand that it appears to us
post-Korea/Vietnam folks that much of the freedom our troops are
fighting for is not directly that of the USA. That our desire for
safety also involves diplomacy and not just the immodestly-named Shock
and Awe campaign.
For the record: I am not a pacifist. I also do not embrace every
conflict the US enters simply because the US has entered it and
therefore must be on the "right" side and to merely hint at a question
is to reveal myself as unChristian and unAmerican.
Dr Phil's words come to mind: What do you want: to be right, or to be
happy (translate "live peacably")
Sally in GA (and a professing political ignorant who prays for our
troops and our President, though he's not my favorite, and our
enemies)
Is there a Christian church that really lets PC in the pulpit.
Lord have mercy.
Interesting that this is the UM "Peace With Justice" Sunday.
D-Day and Trinity Sunday, as well. And a remembrance of Ronald Reagan.
I truly, truly, truly am desperate. It's 6:38 and I haven't even
committed to a focus. Rare for me.
Sally
I think I'll title it "The Best is Yet to Come" and consider the 4th
person of the Trinity: us and our witness
not that our work will be the best, but that we're working into the
future, into understanidng, into reconciliation (per many posts on
this page and others).
And it's this inclusion into the body (it's commuinion day for us,
too) is as if the fourth person -
if one doesn't have one person of the trinity without the other two
equally present, then we do not have God's influence without the
three...
make sense?
Sally in GA
Pr. in IA,
I am saying that the world waited too long to save the
Jewish/Gypsy/Gay/Intellectual/genetically "inferior" from Hitler's
final solution. We have waited too long to help Rwanda. We are sitting
on another genocide in Uganda. If this life is of no value, then fine,
let the exterminations continue. See you in heaven where you can give
your excuse then as to why you stood by and did nothing.
If I see a crime that I can prevent, and I let it happen, I am
culpable. I guess I am trading my ploughshare for a sword. Dead men
cannot perpetrate more evil. Appeasement just doesn't work.
I am sorry this had nothing to do with Trinity Sunday (which happens
to be D-Day) but I am thankful for every person who put his or her
life on the line to rescue my family from the holocaust.
PC in GA (not a pastor by any means--don't worry)
The triple point of water is at 32 degrees (F). It is the point at
which all three states of matter co-exist in a vacuum. It is used to
calibrate thermomoters. Three things, one substance (H2o).
All so very interesting posts. Thank you for stirring my mind and
heart at this late hour. For the energetic in a WWII world, I too
serve such a congregation...and have for 11 years now. In listening to
their stories, I come to respect the veterans and their experiences.
It has been a priviledge to minister with a guard at the Hitler trials
in Germany, an honor to minister and know a fellow who can tell you
every detail of his experiences in war and has had them published, it
is a priviledge to know these folks who willing gave of them selves
for the sake of our country. I am not so sure if I have that kind of
character for myself. It is always fun to do a history evening and
video the stories of these codgers. And in listening to their stories,
I have found strong supportors for the first female pastor of this
congregation. And they encourage me and support financially the
ministries that are aimed at the young folk. And at the first
Christian rock concert in our sanctuary, there were the council
members, one fellow in his 90's wearing his white tam and his knee-hi's
and his wife of a similar age, rocking to the beat of the band. In
only three years time, the crowd went from mainly people over 60 to
only people under 50. It is quite a change and to do so with their
permission and blessing. I love these folks, and I proudly will
minister with them and usher them to the church triumphant.
now, I will step off of this podium, PB in OH
PB in OH - I love your idea of a "history evening" and I do apologize
if I sounded like I didn't respect the WW II folks, or that I am
ungrateful to any soldier who puts his/her life on the line for the
American cause. In fact, I am deeply grateful. I was just *hoping* to
bring some reconciliation between an argument I perceived and point
out that us Boomers and beyond do not automatically embrace the
conflicts the US engages in. I hope BOTH points of view can be
respected.
And, lest I sounded disrespectful of my WW II congregation, I do what
I can and I love them where they're at. I still don't know how to get
around the dilemma that whenever someone new (and younger) visits the
congregation they comment on the low energy. I don't know how to
introduce new hymns or less-stodgy liturgy without leaving folks
behind. They tell me, "remember, we're decades older than you," or
"you can't teach old dogs new tricks," and I love them as best I can
while trying to introduce new stuff. It sounds like, by contrast, your
congregation was more receptive to new ideas???
Not all WW II folks are the same, nor are Boomers and beyond. Nor are
congregations nor preachers.
Sally in GA (just inc ase you check back)
