How often do we talk about relating to the Christ with in each other?
Are we afraid we might be locked up in a funny farm if we talk too much about Christ within?
You asked, "Are we afraid we might be locked up in a funny farm if we talk too much about Christ within?"
Actually I think it might be easier for people to see us as sensible if we used more of this sort of language. The Quakers used to have a phrase about there being "That of God in every man". This is not too hard to accept if you believe that ultimately we are all created by God. And if there is something of God in every person, then it is not so unreasonable for there to have been one person in whom there was all of God.
That at least is my way of approaching the divinity of Christ with those who find it hard to make sense of.
Of course that does nothing to deal with our sense of unworthiness to claim that there is anything of Christ within us personally. To get there you have to think about saving Grace.
Stephen in Exeter UK
look at creation of first man. God breathed his breath into the man and he became a living soul.
then look at the new creation in the upper room.
as my father has sent me, so send I you. and he breathed on them and said, receive ye the Holy Spirit.
the early church probably also had a hard time accepting that they were accepted, adopted, and adapted to become the 'body of Christ in the world'
But since we have such a great cloud of witnesses.......
let us run the race that is set before us
looking unto the author and accomplisher
wd in WNC
Loving others always sounds easy. It is harder to get up in the dead of the nite to care for a sick child but a parent does it. Loving is often at a cost. I must learn to love the way Jesus showed us! His love was constant and even to the point of death and by his example I am given hope to learn to love like Jesus loved others/us. H in Iowa
I am in my father, and you in me, and I in you. Most people don't mind talk about all of us being part of the body of Christ. to say that the spirit lives within us or that we are each created in the image of the divine is socially acceptable.
But are not most of us too uncomfortable to say as Paul did, it is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.
I recently heard of a man who built a life size wooden helecoptor 17 years before the Wright brothers. The machine and the two men on it were lifted off the ground to a height of 4 feet before the wooden gears started breaking apart. The whole town made fun of the man. Several months later they had him committed. The only thing wrong with the man was that things he said about two subjects sounded crazy. One subject was building machines that would fly and the other subject was religion. He was also a funeral director who was heard to say, "I am the resurection and the life..."
no doubt the man did make some statements that sounded crazy or blasphemous in the little Catholic community. It seems this man had come out of the "holiness" movement. We may never know how much of his talk was "crazy" or how much it was simply ill worded expressions of a zealous movement which emphasized Christ within.
Most of us are timmid or humble in our reluctance to talk much about Christ within me. but there may also be reasons for genuine fear of sounding crazy. Manzel
Has Jesus been misunderstoon on this? I don't believe that in saying he and the father were one, that Jesus mean that he prayed to himself or that all prayers were directed to him alone. rather it is like in marriage where two become one; there is solidarity, union and sharing of identities but we would not go so far as to say "you as a couple must share a ballot because you only get one vote since your are one person instead of two."
likewise how far do we go in saying "christ is in me"? Doesn't it seem we go pretty far in the first case and not very far in the second case? Manzel
Forgive me for pushing an issue that I know is controversial. I hope I am doing so in a respectful way that encourages rather than diminishes our dialogue. I am very comfortable with the statement that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. I am comfortable with Jesus statements "I and the father are one" but I don't think Jesus said he alone was god. It looks like Jesus was pretty careful not to encourage people to worship him "why do you call me good, there is only one... that is the father". Are we really being true to Jesus if we don't respect this?
we go pretty far in identifying Jesus as one with the father but we avoid going very far in affirming "Christ within". We act as if we are so much into the "total depravity" view of mankind that we limit how far we go in thinking about or talking about Christ within. Manzel
A prayer of confession in our United Methodist as preperation for recievin communion uses these words: We do not presume to come to this thy table, O Merciful Lord, trusting in our wown righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy table. but....that we may walk in the newness of life, may grow into his likeness, and may evermore dwell in him, and he us us"
I love the phrases, walk in the newness of life, grow into this likeness, evermore dwell in him and he is us. But it is like we don't really claim it. We never get to the point of affirming that as our true identity but instead repeat again and again the bit about our own unworthiness.
If we really believe we are one with Christ, that we live in Christ and he in us, then why don't we stop flogging ourselves (and Christ) with this unworthiness harrangue. If Christ lives in us and we in Christ, then we are worthy, we are adopted and full inherritors with Christ as it says in Romans 8. We are worthy and should let go of any former state of unworthiness. Likewise let us recognize that others are worthy too, as we recognize Christ within them. .. Manzel
The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive?
Ok so this is part of the reason many who were there when the Bible was first cannonized thought that John's gospel was too Gnostic. We have been taught that Gnostic is a dirty word. Is it really? Have we been taught a pretty shallow steriotyped view of Gnosticism.
Is it possible that there really is a conspiracy to suppress the Gnostic influence? Ok movies like Stigmata are pretty far out but we who study the Bible might want to check and see if there is something to this and if such an idea is gaining popularity.
The movie, Stigmata, and the best selling book: The Celestine Prophecy both portray a strong conspiracy within the Catholic church to suppress the influence of Gnosticism. The very word conspiracy sounds rather Holiwood but is there some truth to this? How would we know? What about the scrolls found at Nag Hamandi? Can we see any bias or definite spin in the way the churches react to these?
We have a loyalty to the Bible but what is the nature of that loyalty? What does the Spirit of truth lead us to do with such questions?
Do scholars like Martin Marty, Robert Funk, Leander Keck or John D. Crosson ever check out sights like this one even just out of curiosity? Where is religion in America headed these days?
Hi to all,
Are all of you ok after last nights storms? I spent most of the night in Philly's airport.
I didn't see a response about a peace of Christ story. I am still hoping someone has one.
Eric, it is so interesting to hear of the changes in transplants. When I donated in 1971, they took 750ml from the plevic bones, Had 24 holes front and back. Seems like they found out they needed more. As with all gifts of life in these case we can only give, after that it is up to God. Howvever it has always been a bit strange thinking about a portion of you living in another. But then Christ lives in us all! Take care, Nancy-WI
God was in Christ because He was yielded to the Father and desired His will to be done. He lives in us to the extent that we do the same. How important it is for us as individuals and as a church to stop asking God for His help with our plans and to start asking what His plans are and how we can be a part of them.
PJ in Spring Valley
Without condoning self-flagellation, we kid ourselves when we don't consider our sinfulness. Still, there is a profound reassurance in the words "I am in my father, and you in me, and I in you." The reassurance is that we are reunited, reconciled. That this speech comes just before the last supper serves as a benediction for the disciples and us. It's as if Jesus is saying, "I've done all I can do on earth; now it's time for me to commission you to do my work. Here; I'll give you my very body so you can."
Sally in GA
PS - does any UM out there know more about "Golden Cross Sunday" than what's in the Book of Worship?
Ok, I have a question that doesn't relate directly to this scripture... but the timing of preaching. Please forgive me if this is an inappropriate forum, but I'm trying to figure out when to preach/talk about/mention the Ascension of Christ. It seems to be a pretty important event. And I've talked about Easter being a Season, not just a day, every Sunday since Easter Sunday. So I'd like to follow through with the liturgical calendar's unfolding. But, if I wait until the Sunday after then it's Mother's Day (& we have a special offering and a special "Bells of Remembrance" short program for Breast Cancer victims and survivors. So, it seems that it's best to talk about the Ascension this Sunday? or ???? anyone have any suggestions about how to intermingle the importance and the living of the lectionary/liturgical calendar with secular life events/holidays/experiences? If it seems more appropriate to bounce over to a discussion board (just tell me how and where) I'd be glad to do that. Thanks and God's blessings to all of you -- RevAmy
RevAmy:
The Ascesnsion is important, but we can't get any one to come to worship on Thursday. 2o years ago I came to a congregation that had Ascension worship. 20 people showed up, with 300 on a usual Sunday morning. I told Council we had to quit the Ascension Day Service because the ascension is too important to only preach it to a few. I usually did it the Sunday after.
In the RCL for year A, the Ascension story is told on Easter 7, which, unfortunately, is Mother's Day this year. I think it should still be done then. There is the strong emphasis on not just looking to heaven, but getting to work here on earth, and the praying together with the whole "family" including Mother Mary. Should be some tie-ins there someplace. I think family (may be especially Mothers) are one of the main ways that we practice the kingdom of God, in getting along with each other and helping each other grow and develop our full potential.
JRW in OH
This text does not say, "If you keep my commandments, you will be saved." It does, however, lift up the commandments as still valid. Is Jesus speaking of "The Ten" or only about "The New" or all or neither?
Furthermore, does it matter?
I'm keep thinking with this text, "What does this mean?"
Michelle
Anonymous preacher...
You ask.. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive?
The Gospel of John has a theme of light and darkness, and the world not acknowledging its own creator. The world which is in darkness can not receive the light. The world which rejects Christ who is the Truth, cannot receive the Spirit of Truth.
The world is simply unable to receive the Spirit, because it neither sees Him nor knows of Him. Compared to this, Jesus is saying that His disciples will know the Spirit, because He remains with them and will be in them.
CDM
Manzel you talk of "total depravity" and our limiting how far we go in talking about Christ within, yet this passage points toward how Christ begins in us through the Advocate. So begins the process of Sanctification, growing into perfection or going on to perfection(Wesley). How about when we are totally human, we see the need for Christ,since we are not left alone, we grow in Christ through the Holy Spirit. In this process our greatest need is to "be still" and listened to how Christ "reveals" himself to us.
Just a thought. Airchp in SC
To Rev Amy - Your worship plans for Ascension Sunday sound great. What better day to remember breast cancer victims and survivors than the day we focus our praise and worship on the hope and glory of the ascension of Christ!
To anyone - The season is still Easter and I don't know if I'm putting too much of a stretch into this, so I'd appreciate any feedback. In the Acts reading we're assured of being judged in righteousness by Christ - assured by the resurrection of Christ. In John we're assured that because Christ lives, we live also. Not only does Christ live, but Christ lives in us.
Then in 1 Peter we're told to always be ready to give a defense of the hope that is in us. The assurance we HAVE is the resurrected Christ, and that same assurance we GIVE.
Not sure exactly where I'm going with this and don't want to go too far if it's too much. Any thoughts?
Peace,
pastorkat PA
for Sally in GA
re Golden Cross
If the annual conference so directs, an offering may be received for the work of health and welfare ministries in the annual conference.
Check with your Annual Conference web page to see if they have other information. Conference Journal should have a report if your conference actively promotes.
WNC uses funds for small grants to anyone in the conference with severe medical expense not covered any other way.
HTH
wd in WNC UMC
[In as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these]
[our parish has started a lending library of various aids for the injured or infirm, such as walkers, potty chairs, canes, crutches ect.]
Michelle - I've always understood "keep my commandments" as meaning all 11. He gives one new commandment, so if he meant only the 1, it would be singular. As to the other 10, Jesus says he didn't come to change the Law one iota. I also always think that Jesus' new commandment casts the others in a much brighter light. And, your question, "Does it matter?" I believe the answer is "yes:" The commandments are no longer vise-like but liberating, as followed in love, not legalism and religious superiority. It's simplistic, but it frees me of the need to condemn others.
Thanks for the info on Golden Cross Sunday. I guess it's not a big thing for our Annual Conference, and my current church doesn't observe it. I was just considering tying something in to the worship about it. I think I'll just mention it and remember to pray for health professionals during our prayer time. Thanks, anyhow!
Sally in GA
"If you love me, keep my commandments..." Doesn't that sound like a manipulative mother? IF you love me, you'll do what I say...
On the other hand, I can tell with my own teenagers, that they cooperate because of love (and I don't think I'm manipulating them!). They know I love them, by what I do and how I treat them, as much or more than by what I say. And they love me back, and therefore want to cooperate. Sometimes I have to remind them that they want to cooperate. And sometimes we argue over what cooperation entails. But they basically do the right thing, because of love.
Love is not just a nice sentiment. It is expressed morally and revealed in action. It is not enough to just FEEL sorry for sins and shortcomings. We must say it in words and change our behavior accordingly. It is not enough to just FEEL love. Love must also be expressed in words and in concrete actions... keeping the commandments.
Too bad it's not mother's day this week.
Anyone have anything to say about "the Spirit of Truth" and telling the truth?
DGinNYC
More info for Sally:
The Heritage of Golden Cross
Do all the good you can,
by all the means you can,
in all the ways you can,
in all the places you can,
to all the people you can,
as long as you ever can.
-John Wesley
The annual Golden Cross offering provides the opportunity for members of United Methodist to provide tangible support for the health and welfare provider organizations of the various Conferences.
Traditionally held in May, the national Golden Cross tradition springs from the Golden Cross Society formed in 1892 in the North Texas Conference. The Golden Cross Society was begun to "extend kindness and generosity in giving to the unfortunate and love to one's fellows." The Society was based at the Methodist Medical Center in Dallas, Texas and to this day a "golden cross" shines from the top of the hospital.
Funds given toward the Golden Cross Offering are distributed to the health and welfare organizations in the Conference to assist them in their ministry of providing services to the aging, children, and others who need medical, physical, emotional or spiritual support. Collectively the health and welfare provider organizations have provided millions of dollars of benevolent care for individuals with limited or depleted resources. Who has received this care? It could have been a neighbor, a friend or a member of your church.
In 1737, John Wesley encouraged George Whitfield to establish an orphanage in Georgia. That orphanage would be the first step in a proud journey in the field of health and welfare ministries of the United Methodist Church. The Golden Cross Offering is a recognition and reflection of that proud heritage of caring and healing ministries.
It's a wonderful offering for this Sunday wrapped in the words of loving Christ in his incarnation. And he does reveal himself, in so many of the places where Golden Cross Funds are used.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Oh, just another note, the info above about Golden Cross comes by way of the Eastern PA Conference. Thanks to them!
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Just a couple of thoughts in response...
Sally in GA...
Didn't Jesus say "I did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it"? It seems to me that The Great Commandment covers all the other ten...if we truly love God with heart, mind and soul and neighbor as ourselves, we will keep the original ten.
Manzel...
In this conversation I find Luther's claim of being at once saint and sinner to be helpful. Paul Tillich wrote of the challenge to always keep that tension in balance as faithful disciples.
Ruth in Southern California
Just a thought about the Christ within. There is a quote from Henri Nouwan in (I think) REACHING OUT--"It is the Christ in you that sees the Christ in me." I believe this was in a conversation with one of his students who also said, "From now on, all ground between us is Holy Ground." I don't know if that does anything for anyone, but some of the early contributions this week made me think of it. It's too early in the week for me to have much going on my sermon yet besides the title, "Where the Healing and the Hope Begin." I'm going to slide back and incorporate some of last week's gospel with this one and talk about the assurance of Christ in all our times, but especially in times of stress and pain. I will also talk about the word "comforter" being one of the multi-layered meanings of the word translated as "advocate." This passage is so rich in the images of comfort and reassurance in dwelling in Christ and he dwelling in us. the other lp in CO
Nail Bender - thanks! Just what I was looking for. I'll keep this info handy for next year. It's been one of the special Sundays of our conference ever since i've been serving (will complete 7 yrs in June), but there's never any promotional stuff or specific conference encouragement.
Sally
To Sally and Michelle:
I think it is a mistake to interpret "commandments" in verses 15 and 21 as referring to The 10 Commandments. It would be anachronistic to read the Greek "entolai" as referring to the decalogue; we call them the 10 commandments, Jesus (or the writer of John's gospel) would not have used that phrase.
Here's a bit from the New Interpreter's Bible:
They [the commandments] point to the totality of what Jesus says and reveals about God. In order to interpret Jesus words about keeping his commandments/word in these verses, they need to be placed alongside Jesus earlier teachings about faithfulness to his words as the mark of belonging to him (e.g. 5:38; 8:31,37,51; 12:47-48)
In other words, Jesus statement here has to be interpreted without appeal to things outside of John's gospel.
Mike in CA
I had trouble with the "if you love Me" that sounded like a manipulitive mother. A new friend gave me a fresh take. Jesus is not saying if you are made to feel guilty enough or if you are made to be afraid enough you will keep my commandments. He turned the statement around to read "You will keep my commandments if you love me." Loving Jesus is the means of keeping commandments. Is this close to Martin Luther's statement "Love God and sin boldly." Basketball players talk about being in the ZONE when they forget about the "how tos" and "what nots" and just play the game on a higher level. We may have to go back to the fundamentals if we get out of the zone and we have to have practiced them to get into the ZONE. Is keeping the commandments the means to loving Jesus or loving Jesus the means to keeping the commands? Or are they not both a part of the "abundant life". This whole chapter, seems to be about relationship not riches or rewards or regulations. jrbnrnc
Relevant to Ascension, we do have a Wednesday prayer meeting and we often do an ascension service on the Wednesday prior (having given announcement to that effect). Perhaps that's another way to go about it. Let's face it, as a Southern Baptist, there's only a few of us who even know that Thursday is Ascension.
On the Sunday after, I may jump off the lection a bit (or expand on it) to include Acts 1:14 which tells us that Mary was present for the selection of Matthias. I see some Mother's Day connection there.
jrbnrnc - Your comment on v. 15 is, I believe, right on target. Henry Blackaby, in "Experiencing God" puts it very well, I think. "We don't have an obedience problem; we have a love problem." Clearly our obedience to God flows from our love for Him. Obedience is not proof of love, as much as it is the product of love. At least that's how I'll preach it.
JG in WI
Thanks for the analogy of "playin' in the Zone" from the game of basket ball. It ties in with the reading from Acts this week about how we "live and move and have our being" in God. Like a fish in water we are so immersed in the love and presence of God in our lives that we live for a time "in the Zone." But sometimes we are just crusin' along, not too aware of God's great love, presence and provisions yet becuase God's love is unconditional we are still "in the Zone." We may not be aware of God, but God is always aware of us!!!
My life's goal is to live more aware of the "water" around me, to see Christ in you, and you and you, to watch the Christ presence unfold in the lives of people others have crossed off their list.
There was a mother who gave birth to a daughter. She was so unhappy at being pregnant and giving birth that she refused to name the daughter and when the daughter was about 2 1/2 the mother pushed her down a long flight of stairs trying to rid herself of this daughter. But she lived! By some miracle of life this daughter found her way to the foot of the cross and discovered what unconditional love was all about. She learned to love her mother even though she continued to be very emotional ill. She shared her new found faith with her - to what appeared a deaf ear. Years later the daughter becomes an ordained pastor. The mother secretlly joins the church because she thinks she will be embarrassed to have a dauther for a pastor and she does not belong to a church. At the age of 79 she attends her first Bible study. And at the age of 80 she writes a prayer so she can pray when called upon at the bible study. Mother and daughter talk about how much she has changed over the years. Dauther tells her how proud she is of her. Everyone, everyone is surounded by the grace of God, our actions, our willingness to not give up on them can be the way to help them be aware of the Christ presence. The Christ presence is not just for the daughter, it is also for the mother - the broken, the emotionaly disadvantaged, the ones that others give up on.
Mother Teresa often told people who wanted to come help her in India to go home and find the Christ in the people of their own home town in which they lived. Chirst in you and Christ in me is not about religious folks - its about everyone. jmj
Was there a movement in the early church to suppress Gnosticism? You bet! It wasn't just the Gnostic idea of a 'special knowledge' that the church found threatening, but the exclusivist attitude of the Gnostics toward that knowledge, the essentially extreme dualistic nature of Gnostic thinking, and the extremes to which this thinking drove the Gnostics.
John's Gospel uses Gnostic language, but in the same way that Paul incorporated his opponents' language in his letters - to combat their extremes and false teachings. Jesus' word that the world cannot receive his truth is not, on the other hand, intended to be an exclusivist statement. It is a recognition of the total depravity of human nature. Contrary to what many think, the idea of total depravity is not that we humans are slobbering, vile demons incapable of any good impulse. It is rather that we humans, since the Fall, are in such a state of rebellion against God (Sin!), that we cannot, even through our good inclinations, be reconciled to him. It is thus literally impossible for humans who are still in this state, and thus of the world, to receive the truth of God's great work of salvation (Jesus Christ).
But the good news is that the love of God is so great for us that he is constantly at work in every human life to bring us out of this state of depravity and into his saving grace. It may be impossible for us to receive God's salvation, and thus his truth, on our own, but God's grace works in us, even before we receive his grace, to enable us to receive grace, and mercy, love, and truth. This is the Methodist doctrine of prevenient grace.
This is what makes John's gospel different from the Gnostics. Yes, the world cannot receive God's truth, but not because they are being shut out from the truth by God. Indeed, God is at work in the world to enable those who cannot receive it to be able to receive it. Because Jesus lives, then, we (who are dead in the spirit) shall live also! Hallelujah! Ken in WV
DG, about Spirit of Truth, Scott Peck in his landmark book, The Road Less Traveled discribes a dedication to the truth as one of the major characteristics of healthy personalities. In later works (ie. People of the Lie) Peck equates evil with a lack of dedication to the truth, and willingness to live in denial or illusions. Often these people have good intentions but end up doing great harm to others in pretense that they are dong good. How many missionaries or crusaders have been like this? Peck says that people who are dedicated to the truth are constantly revising or updating their mental maps of reality.
Also, several of the contemporary spiritual movements are geared to help overcome illusions. A Course on Miracles, for example talkes extensively about how illusions shape our lives and lead us to live out of a mindset of fear rather than love. ..Manzel
