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Scripture Text (NRSV)

 

John 10:22-30

 

10:22 At that time the festival of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter,

10:23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon.

10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

10:25 Jesus answered, "I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name testify to me;

10:26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.

10:27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.

10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.

10:29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.

10:30 The Father and I are one."

 

Comments:

 

Three times Jesus says that his sheep are secure; no one will snatch them from Jesus' or the Father's hands. The sheep have eternal life and so shall never perish.

The powerful Hebrew image of God as shepherd of God's people is taken up by New Testament writers to speak of Jesus. Jesus, acting in God's name, offers the same promise of safety in which the psalmist rejoices. God and Jesus are one in purpose.


What is it about "Good Shepherd Sunday" that wins the hearts and worship attendance of so many Christians? What draws so many technological, fast-paced, nonpastoral types to shepherd and sheep imagery, today only truly relevant to a few rural types (who may, in truth, find the imagery to be more odoriferous than charming)? Are we longing for an escape? Are we retreating to a Saturday afternoon movie where we can convince ourselves, if for only a moment, that everyone lives happily ever after after all? Is it a visit to "First Century Land" in which we assure ourselves that there is a place where security, lavish tables, and quiet green pastures really do exist? Perhaps this momentary escape can indeed help us to face our lives. If so, how does this escape prepare us for the wolves in our concrete jungles and on our asphalt pathways?

What about the wolves? They don't go away. Where and who are our wolves today? How do they threaten us? How does the Good Shepherd protect us? And those wolves--are they all really wolves? Or are some just misguided sheep (sheep in wolves' clothing?) who need to be brought into the fold with us?

Go back to the Shepherd. Given our contemporary wolves and their sophisticated communications media, how do we today hear the voice of the Shepherd? In a generation of secularized sound bites in which many of the sheep have left for "greener pastures," what does the Good Shepherd's voice sound like? How can we learn to voice the Shepherd's call so that those who have not yet experienced the security of the fold can know it?


I repeatedly struggle with the image that only the sheep in "this fold" are secure, and that all others are prey to all manner of peril. I guess I'm a universalist at heart, because I can't get my mind going in that direction. I believe God loves and cares for us all equally, that God simply does not discriminate, and we're all part of his sheepfold whether we want to be or not. Some openly recognize that they're in the fold and are happy there; others rail against it, but are still there anyway; others are unaware where they are, they simply go along through life without thinking about it too much.

I guess I'm back at the Prodigal Son imagery. While the son left the "fold", his father never really let him make the final divisive cut. The boy still had a place at Dad's house and in Dad's heart whether he ever went back to claim them or not. Even if the boy had continued to live stupidly and had even died in the meantime, the father's heart would never close down, and the beloved son would have been welcomed or buried at home at the father's insistance. This is how I see God with us -- all of us.

But this passage clearly separates us all into US and THEM, which I really, really can't preach with any degree of conviction.

I'm finding this text quite challenging. So what else is new? I've never claimed to be a gifted preacher, and it's a very good thing I haven't.

I'll be reading with great interest as you all start to submit your posts.

KHC

OK, it wouldn't submit and I had to click my BACK button - so this might double post. Sorry if it does.


"For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." So much for the wolves? As far as the prodigal son - What if he never came back? Yes, certainly the Father would still love him. Jesus wept for Jerusalem. God can not force us to accept his love. But the prodigal would have made his own bed and would have to accept the consequences of that kind of life, separated from the love of God not by God's choice, but by his own choice. If we can't preach us and them, then what is the use of believing in Christ? Why don't we just worship Budha or Mohammed? PH in OH


I'm not so sure the Muslims worship Mohammed, or that Mohammed ever intended that he be an object of worship. I can't speak about the Buddah, but I think that's pretty much the case there, too. I am willing to be corrected on this, however.

I think Jesus Christ called us into a life of service and obedience, grounded in love - the agape love we talked about last week. He offered himself, the Son of God, in both life and death as the perfect example of that, and for that reason he is worthy of my worship. That's why I worship Jesus and not any other "god" or "holy one". I honor Jesus when my life is in line with his example, and it makes my life one of purpose. That is the reward I receive by being a Christian - my life has meaning beyond what I could give myself or find anywhere else. I am less interested in some reward that comes later, being enfolded into some eternal group that excludes anybody because they saw life differently than I did. I tell my parishoners who ask "why believe if you don't believe that the reward for it is heaven?" that believing just makes the ride of life so much more meaningful and grounded. I have a reason for living, and it is to love and serve the Lord - and serve others in his name. That is what Christianity is all about, IMHO. It has nothing to do with being separated out, but rather to reach out because God overcomes all barriers through Jesus Christ.

Now, having spent so much print-space saying that, I must now say that I don't want to separate myself out from anybody on this forum who sees things differently than I do. I respect that others may think Christians are a separate entity from the rest of the world. I won't try to change your mind, mainly because I can't. Nor are you likely to change mine. I just want to read what you have to say about the sheepfold thing and peril for those not in it. Thank you for your patience with me on this.

KHC


to the person who wrote: "What is it about "Good Shepherd Sunday" that wins the hearts and worship attendance of so many Christians? What draws so many technological, fast-paced, nonpastoral types to shepherd and sheep imagery, today only truly relevant to a few rural types (who may, in truth, find the imagery to be more odoriferous than charming)?"

I wish I had a congregation that even knew what Good Shepherd Sunday way. I resonate with the images used and love the Sunday myself but I don't feel like my church does. I grew up in a farming community, raised sheep as my pet and know exactly why Psalm 23 and NT uses the image of Good Shepherd but dont feel like my church get it.

Avis in Louisville


I'm Presbyterian (USA) and have never heard of Good Shepherd Sunday. It is not part of our calendar, but the fact that a shepherd theme happens this week in the Common Lectionary obviously means it fits in with somebody's calendar. I think Good Shepherd Sunday is a good enough idea to swipe one of these years.

Ah, Louisville. My home, sweet home of carefree days of youth......I hope it is well these days.

KHC


Dear Friends,

I have been doing some traveling this week. I have taken advantage of the Bible on CD. I was listening to the gospel of John and this passage in particular at the end of last week and was struck by the presentation. There was no over dramatization on the part of the readers as is done in some versions of dramatized versions. Still its words sent me cringing wondering what it would have been like to be the Pharisees, Sadducees and Priests who would have heard these words. No wonder they were angry with Jesus! If they did have in inkling he was the Christ then to have him pronounce these words must surely have hurt.

The fact is we will have to deal with some "us and them" theology here. To apply the message we may have to ask the question are we sure we are us and not them?

Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine


Avis said, "I wish I had a congregation that even knew what Good Shepherd Sunday was." All I can say is "Amen!" For people who've been in church their whole lives, it seems so odd that every year it seems that this is the first they've heard about it. They claim to not remember, and while there is some validity to that (if they haven't noticed the pattern), it makes me wonder how invested any of us are in the first place!

I agree with KHC, and would add one more facet. I, too, am less-than-focused on going to heaven (I think that's why we have such dead churches, really, because all we have to do is get saved and ride out the rest of our earthly lives so we can go to heaven). Rather, my reward is today. Not the "get rich" scheme of the so-called "prosperity gospel," but because my life has life TODAY. It not only has meaning but it has hope, an advocate, a friend, with whom I'm in daily touch. How sad it is to live life "looking for love in all the wrong places," when the best place is imminent and alive. The hope isn't only for the end of my life, but for tomorrow, or even later on today! It's the applying of "kairos" into the "chronos" of my life that not only gives it substance but focuses me on something other than the immediate problem, while enjoying the immediate celebration.

OK, it's hard to describe in a DPS post, but I just wanted to chime in that I, too, have difficulty with the us/them, or in/out, sheep/goat dichotomy. Perhaps the sheep hear Jesus' voice because they trust, not because they joined the ranks or prayed a certain prayer. Last week, there was talk aobut "you've got to believe it to see it." Well, this is one such case.

Sally in GA


Some of the most powerful, heart-changing, life-changing sermons I've heard didn't mention heaven or hell even once.

What they did, when I thinka bout it, is validate God's love for me today. The sheep seek to return God's love.

Sally in GA


At least one clergy friend who grew up on a farm has trouble with the use of sheep to refer to Christians since he knows a sheep's odor and actions to be somewhat less attractive that positive.

But John A. Sanford in his commentary on the book of John called "Mystical Christianity", sees the use of sheep as refering to our own instincts, rather than individual persons. The instincts that come from (I would call it) prevenient grace enters by the gate, where are egoentric instincts climb over the fence to try and get into the fold. Using his commentary as a guide in my reading of the gospel has been very helpful.

Shalom

bammamma


"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." I'm leaning toward a sermon on how faith comes to us as a gift from God and the ability to even hear Jesus' voice is also a gift that comes only because he first knows us. Without having first been chosen to hear the voice of our shepherd, we are deaf to it. We only have faith because God has faithfully chosen us.

Scrambled wanderings which may work themselves into a sermon!

PB in PA


(Before we begin, we should acknowledge that John used the word "Jews" in the fourth Gospel for the religious leaders, not the peasants. Interesting how the leaders were always used to represent the whole group; having a few rotten leaders and it ruined the whole group's representation... Also, fest of Dedication here is the Hanukkah).

So they came and ask Jesus about his identity as "the Messiah". What type of "Messiah" were they talking about? More likely a political saviour than anything else (since even Jesus' own disciples had that mis-understanding, it is safe to assume that these outsiders miss the point too).

Understand their misconception, Jesus could not give them a yes or now answer, but instead he pointed them to the analogy of the good shepherd (which start from verse 1). Jesus clearly stated that they did not belong to him (he may sound harsh, but the receipients may be glad since they might not want to be identified on his side either).

In v.25-26, it seems like faith must precede understanding. Without believe in Him, we will not be able to understand his Word and his Work, and we do not belong to Him.

v.27: The people who have faith in Him, "hear His voice" (not seeing Him); and He know them (even though they may not know Him); and they will follow Him (evidence of hearing His voice).

v.28 are the assurance to the faithful, that we will escape damnation and enter into eternal life; and no one can change that fact. v.29 reiterrated that fact with the Mighty God's authority.

The above two verses could open up a flood gate of Predestination vs. Free-will debate again, so proceed at your own risk <grin>.

Finally, Jesus stated for the record that He is one with God the Father, which steered the Jews immediately to stone Him (v.31-33)

This passage is loaded with theological doctrines, and may be it would be a good opportunity for me to affirm the essential beliefs for myself. That I must believe in order to understand; that hearing must be expressed in following; that I may not fully know Him, but I can rest in the assurance that He knows me; that nothing can separate myself from the love and the care of my God, including my own self, or even the Evil One; and that Jesus is God in the flesh, and by knowing Him we will know the One Who Sent Him.

May I have the right understanding of who you are, Lord.

Coho, Midway City.


I finished my initial observation first before reading your concerns about "us/them" issues. I too, struggled with this a while back. In my heart of heart, I hope for a universalistic resolution, for it is hard to swallow a Monster God. But God is God, and I am not - let alone trying to "swallow" anything, especially in the presence of various "us/them", "heaven/hell" passages in the Bible.

So I take comfort in this "wimpy" position: Since we can only be certain by the things He let us know, let our lives responded well to Him in these certain-areas, so that we don't have to be worry about the uncertain-areas. Therefore, let us concentrate on building people up in Christ for that's the certain way for them to be included in God's flock.

Having said that, here are some propositions I had in the "uncertain-areas":

1) If God is good and righteous, then whatever He does will result in absolute fairness. No one will be able to make excuses in regard to His judgment (Paul dealt with this at length in early Romans, especially 3:3-4)

2) Paul suggested that our God's given conscience could be used for that judgment (Rom. 1:18-20), or our own ethical living or the law (Rom. 2:9-16). Peter said that Christ "went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:19b-20a), which some took it as salvation is available even from hell. CS Lewis suggested that after death, God will allow for people who have yet to know Jesus a chance to make decision. Another scholar suggested that God do not judge us based on the milestone we attained in our journey of faith, but the trajectory of that journey (toward God or not). Bonhoeffer (I think) did not believe in universal salvation, but believe in universal opportunity to accept salvation.

3) What I am saying is this: If the limited human's wisdom could "suggest multiple options for God" to get Him out of the bad press, wouldn't God himself (who created human intelligence) be able to come up with something else way beyond our understanding to accomplish His will?

4) However, the essential will remain: That no matter how a person attain eternal life (by the "certain" way of "accepting Christ", or by various "uncertain" propositions above); it will have to be done through Jesus, for "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". Eternal separation from God is a real possibility enough for Jesus to die on the cross: "if there is any other way - please let this cup passed from me". If there is any better other option, the Father should have taken it already.

6) In conclusion, I will hope for the best (universal salvation), but since that option was a bit "uncertain", I then will have to work with what I can be more "certain", namely the disciple-making work of building up people who know God and obey God.

I also respect the view you have too. I want to repeat what KHC said that, "I won't try to change your mind, mainly because I can't. Nor are you likely to change mine. I just want to read what you have to say..."

In essentials: Unity; in non-essentials: Liberty; in all: Love!

Coho, Midway City


KHC:

Re: Good Shepherd Sunday

I don't think the Sunday has an official designation as "Good Shepherd Sunday" but for many the 4th Sunday of Easter has come to be called that because the Gospel reading in all 3 years of the lectionary comes from the 10th chapter of John (Year A - Jn 10.1-10, Jesus the gate for the sheep; Year B - Jn 10.11-18, Jesus the good shepherd; Year C - Jn 10.22-30, Jesus sheep hear his voice and follow him) and the Psalm for the day is the 23rd in each of the three years.

One pastor has written: "'Good Shepherd Sunday' recalls a beloved image of Jesus, even among contemporary Christians who have never seen a shepherd ... or a sheep. It is a favorite visual metaphor from antiquity. Surviving mosaics and frescoes from the first three centuries of Christian history feature Christ most ofen as a beardless 'good shepherd.' The 23rd Psalm might be sung today by choir and people in Joseph Gelineau's lovely setting.

"After the reading of the Gospel, but before the sermon, a child from the congregation, with significant skills in public reading, might recite William Blake's brief nd beautiful poem, "The Lamb," which witnesses winsomely to Christ. It might be an even more endearing moment if the child were to carry in the arms a favorite stuffed animal, a woolly lamb."

Tom in Ontario


Thank you for the information. I had never heard the 4th Sunday of Easter called "Good Shepherd Sunday", even though I had noticed we always talked about the Good Shepherd soon after Easter. The things you learn from DPS! I appreciate your time to educate me on this.

KHC


Season: Winter.

Place: Portico of Solomon, Jerusalem.

Time: Festival of the Dedication

Problem: End the suspense drama. Are you the messiah or not?

Response: Check out my actions as the testimony.

My sheep identity: Hear my voice. I know them. They follow me. I give them eternal life. Sheep snatchers cant get them.

Point: You seen me, you seen Dad.

hmmmmm.... big names in such a small piece: Jerusalem, temple, Solomon, Festival of Dedication, Messiah, etc.... still working

Story teller


Season: Winter.

Place: Portico of Solomon, Jerusalem.

Time: Festival of the Dedication

Problem: End the suspense drama. Are you the messiah or not?

Response: Check out my actions as the testimony.

My sheep identity: Hear my voice. I know them. They follow me. I give them eternal life. Sheep snatchers cant get them.

Point: You seen me, you seen Dad.

hmmmmm.... big names in such a small piece: Jerusalem, temple, Solomon, Festival of Dedication, Messiah, etc.... still working

Story teller


belonging.

Is it okay to allow other people to belong elsewhere? Perhaps elsewhere where they feel more welcome, at home, etc. Perhaps a critical element of hospitality is allowing other folks to say "thanks but no thanks" and not being offended they have chosen another fold.

just a thought. dont take it too seriously. its just a thought.

storyteller


In Mark 6:11 Jesus gave instructions to the apostles, "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."

It is a part of being a good shepard that some sheep will not be a part of the flock. It may or may not be because of us. In some instances it will go unknown to us. But it is a truth of delivering a message, any message. There are those who hear and will not listen.

Those instances most clearly call for us to emulate the Christ. To stand and deliver a consistent message, not one of harshness, but consistent compassion. If you choose to believe, believe and emulate the Christ. If you choose not to believe, we will love you, we will forgive you, but please reconsider. Feed/Tend the flock.

Welcome any newcomers, welcome the oldcomers, welcome the CEOs. Rejoice when they return, pray when they do not.

I would hope that all come to Christ. I do not believe in predestination, because I think we have the choice to listen or not. I do not proselytize, but I will disuss. I must believe that Christ is the only way to come to the Father, but it is not the hope of heaven that drives me. It is my gratiude for the blessing He has given. It is my priveledge to serve the Living God.

John in IL


I'm glad other people are concerned about the us and them issue of this text. The only good news here seems to be that those who follow Jesus are safe and those who haven't heard the voice yet are left out in the cold. And that dosen't seem like very good news for those who aren't in the fold yet. Not good news for the "unconverted". It sounds more like a threat for them. (For fellow Lutherans, it sounds like the Law and not the Gospel -- yet it almost looks like Gospel.)

Frankly, it dosen't even sound very Jesusy. What about the shepherd that looks for the one lost sheep, or the widow for the lost coin? Dosen't this text contradict those?

I have no conclusions yet. jw in tx


I'm told by a classmate who went to the Holy Land that many different shepherds brought thier sheep to water them and he saw the problem getting them seperated from one another. To his amazement.... every sheep knew his own shepherd's voice and followed him as he walked away from the water. Now that image has always stuck with me. On the 4th Sunday of Easter I tell the story he told me and then add simply.....we follow the Good Shepherd Jesus and we need to know his voice and listen to his Word. Its a short homily but I think it strikes home for the folks to listen to God's Word and to know what Jesus says to us as we pray.

Ed in Iowa


Coho, Midway City: Excellent 6-point on is/them.

I had her people describe themselves or others as "Universalists" but had never had one explain their rationale until about a month or so ago during a class. The instructor, whom I will clal "Don," confessed to having Universalist tendacies and explained it very succinctly: "I have a difficult time believing that a loving Creator could be happy knowing that a part of His Creation is beyond redemption." Don explained the party in the New Heaven and New Earth as an ongoing party where those "outside" of the Redeemed being given an ongoing invitation to repent ... not just to escape "the fire," if you will, but an earnest repentence in which they acknowledged Jesus as Lord and Savior of all mankind. Interesting paralells ... Grace and peace, Buzz


It seems to me that we are jumping into a premature conclusion in assuming the "them" sheep are damned or hellbent or something nasty like that. The text does not read that way for me. We only hear of the prize the Jesus sheep will get: eternal life.

Could be that we are programmed into incorrectly imagining that if one group gets eternal life, the "other group" will not be getting any eternal life. Our concern about "what we get" as some indication of "what they wont get" could be misleading.

I want to preach about What Jesus Promises those who follow him. I want to stay away from getting into a theology of my-way-or-no-way.

still struggling Storyteller


Coho: You wrote that you "hope for the best," and then you (wish I could underline that) declare what the best is. We need His best plan; oursbeing designed by us, will be flawed by our desires which change. I've never been uncomfortable, or felt less than loving by not being a universalist. And it never made my God small. In this, as in so many other areas, while I desire to understand, I acknowledge that His ways and thoughts are higher than mine. lkinhc


Greetings in the name of our Good Shepherd, I do so enjoy 'listening' to all of you. Especially on this topic. I have come to the conclusion that my ministry is as under-shepherd to the Master Shepherd. With that in mind, I believe I will preach on the 23rd Psalm, with trips into John for emphasis.

I too have 'universalist leanings' (please don't tell my mother...) and have difficulty with the us vs.them aspect of John's passage. I much prefer us + them (a both/and solution). As shepherd, don't I have the responsibility to care for all sheep in my pasture? If someone else's sheep have wandered into my pasture, do I let the wolves eat them while protecting my own? I cannot live that way. As shepherd, I give myself to them all.

C2 in WS


KHC: While I have only read posts up to your contribution on the 25th, I wanted to respond as well to what seems like a division of the sheep. The difference I see in what Jesus is saying is that "my sheep HEAR my voice. I know them and they follow me." The sheep that hear and follow are the sheep of the fold that Jesus is speaking of here. As you say there are many gradations of that; perhaps these Jews Jesus is speaking to are in the midst of those gradations.

In another scripture verse, Jesus tells us that there are other sheep who are not yet of the fold. I believe he is speaking there of those to whom you speak in your post. Even in the midst of the "fold" are those sheep who hear the words of God and interpret them in different ways. I guess what I am speaking of here is the "us" and "them" mentality which seems to be so prevelant in my area.

Have not gotten to pondering these texts much; but will be following the conversation avidly. May God bless our work this week. ~ pbetty in NY


pbetty,

Verse 26 says, "you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep", a clear division between sheep in Jesus' flock and sheep outside of Jesus' flock. This is my main problem, since I'm of the opinion that we're ALL in God's fold.

So, maybe there are many corners to God's sheepyard. We're in the one with Jesus, the Jews are in the one with Moses (or Abraham or Elijah or David), and the Muslims are in the one with Abraham and Mohammed. We all mingle around together, but as a previous poster suggested, when it's time to listen to the voice of our own shepherd, we go with the one we know and trust. For you and for me, that would be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

I'm not trying to trivilize here, but am sincerely trying to reconcile my beliefs with this text - and several other texts, too. Your posts have been most interesting to read through.

KHC


God alone is the true shepherd (Ps 23 and Ezekiel 34). When Jesus says that he is the true shepherd, the question arises whether Jesus claims himself to be God (or in the nature of God). Jesus answers this by saying plainly, "The Father and I are one." If God is for us who can be against us and therefore we are safe in the hands of Jesus. This is the reason why the risen Lord showed his hands to his disciples! It is a way of saying that the risen Jesus can protect any one. (Selva Rathinam)


KHC I have this vision of dying and going to "The New Jerusalem", being met by Mary Magdalene, Judas and a whole other disciples through the ages who beckon to me to follow. "Sh," they whisper. We go down a long valley pathway. It is very narrow with a lot of doors on either side. As we walk along, on occasion, someone peeks out of a door and steps in line with the rest of us. One door, looks so inviting, and I love the laughter behind that door. It even says "Open hearts, Open minds, Open doors, on the outside. Oh do I want to go in that door. It seems so-o-o familiar and inviting. But I hear a voice ahead that though vague is so familiar, and so I keep going down that corridor. Finally the group, the disciples, and those of us who have followed them open onto a place where..., Well I have no human words to describe it. One of the disciples then smiles, and says, "God will be so glad when the rest of the folks accept the fact they aren't the only ones up here, and then all will be in heaven". With that I smile, throw my arm around my worse enemy in human life, and wandered after Jesus.

Shalom

bammammma


Part of my problem with the gospel of John much of my life (prior to finally getting some education on it!) has been the tone that we can so easily find in it, the black/white, good/evil dichotomy. But one way for me to reconcile that is to read these things as descriptive, rather than prescriptive. That still leaves you with a bunch of folks left in the dark, of course, but it doesn't include such a smug sound to it.

The other thing that I finally came to back in seminary days (may be heresy, but it's how it works for me) is to concentrate on Christ as the second person of the Trinity, the Logos, the ordering principle of the whole world. From that perspective, everything from the atom to the human heart was created to be aligned with God through Christ. For me, that second-person principle can be present in places where Jesus' name is not uttered, and in fact when other names are uttered instead.

I don't say this to try to convince people of other faiths that they are really Christians at heart. And I know it still leaves the question of needing to actually claim the name of Jesus. But if I believe that the whole world was created through him, and that life indeed will have the final victory, even over our worst attempts at derailing it, then I have to believe that Christ is in all things, working for redemption, especially wherever love gives its life for the sake of others. And that gives me comfort. To find God, people still have to align themselves with who Jesus was and with the power of God that was/is at work in him, but I guess there's a place in my head that says there are different ways of making that choice.

Who knows if this holds water? I'll jump on the bandwagon of not trying to change anybody's mind--just throwing in my two cents.  Laura in TX.


Anyone else having a problem with "decision theology?" I keep fighting the "we" make the decision about God. I believe that God has made the decision about us and all we do is in response to His love. Passages like these sound very "decision oriented." How can I get across that faith is something that "claims us?" Do we decide to follow or if we are His is His the voice we hear? Help,I get confused. NDHillbilly


To all the brothers and sisters who are struggling with the "problem" of "us" and "them," and the question of whether a loving God would keep some out of heaven: Assuming you believe that the Word of God is inerrant, what do you do with John 14:6 ("I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one come to the Father but through me.")?

PD in CA


C2 in WS,

You asked, "If someone else's sheep have wandered into my pasture, do I let the wolves eat them while protecting my own?" According to I Peter 5, we are all shepherds of the "Great shepherd; therefore if you see a sleep wandered into your pasture, your responsibility would be taking care of His sheep.

lkinhc, you were right: I shouldhave written, "I hope for the easiest way" instead. Sometimes we think what best in actuality would be what laziest instead.

Coho, Midway City.


The inerrancy of the Bible is not something I assume. We Presbyterians declare the Scripture to be the authorative Word of God, but are under no mandate to accept it literally or as inerrant; there is a large difference between the two. The Presbyterian Church calls itself the Reformed Church, always reforming, and so we move into new understandings of the Scripture when the Spirit of God calls us there. That's one of the reasons the Presbyterians no longer teach predestination. Well, some do, but relatively few of us. It's also the reason we allow for such division of views among the membership. Whatever the issue du jour, Presbyterians will likely be divided on it, and with no fear of repercussions or talk of heresy. I think there are several denominations that allow for freedom of conscience and freedom of belief, and would permit not accepting the Bible as inerrant.

Bammamama, thanks for the story. Loved the "won't they be surprised!" theme!

KHC


Potpourri:

A good illustration about following Jesus' voice, from a sermon by Mark Roper: Once a friend of mine went swimming in a large lake at dusk. As he was paddling at a leisurely pace about 100 yards offshore, a freak evening fog rolled in across the water. Suddenly he could see nothing: no horizon, no landmarks, no objects or lights on shore. Because the fog diffused all light, he could not even discern which direction the sun was setting.

For thirty minutes my friend splashed around in panic. He would start off in one direction, lose confidence, and turn ninety degrees to the right. Or left--it made no difference which way he turned. He would stop and float, trying to conserve energy, and concentrate on breathing slower. Then he would strike out again, blindly, of course, for he had lost all orientation. He was utterly lost until, finally, he heard voices calling from shore and was able to guide himself by the sounds. -

There is some evidence that the "Good Shepherd" figure in Jewish tradition was associated with the Messiah. So, even before he says "The Father and I are one," Jesus has in essence proclaimed himself Messiah and stirred up the Temple authorities.

Speaking of Blake's poem, there is a lovely setting of "The Lamb" by John Rutter. I believe it's a part of his "Mass of the Children." It's a part of the "Agnus Dei" section of that work.

Grace & Peace, Ken in WV


NDHillbilly,

Your problem is my problem with this. This is decision theology. It is not about the pre-existing grace and love of God (which is what Good Shepherd Sunday should be about.)

In this text, Jesus is talking to the religious authorities who are trying to trick him and kill him (they try to have him stoned in the next few verses.) To anyone else, Jesus would have said that God has made a choice for us first -- but he wants these people to think about it more.

I think that the problem we're finding is with the lectionary choice here. This is supposed to be "good shepherd" Sunday -- a day about the peace and Goodness of God's love (not a day of decisions, which might be appropriate antoher day.)

Seems like the lectionary people just grabbed a text that mentions sheep and shepherds, but it is really more like one of those where he calls them a "brood of vipers" (I know that's in Matthew).

It's not an appropriate text. And once I get over that, I think I'll be able to come up with a sermon. jw in tx


KHC - I know this space is supposed to be for discussion of the appointed lesson, but your comments about Scripture intrigue me: "...always reforming, and so we move into new understandings of the Scripture when the Spirit of God calls us there."

So, help me understand something. How do you really know if it's the Spirit of God calling you there? If one does not accept that all Scripture is inspired by God and inerrant, how do you know what IS and what ISN'T? And how can you be sure? Even more so, how can YOU be sure of YOUR salvation? Seems to me such a position lends itself to an awful lot of uncertainty, something Satan would have a wonderful time exploiting.

PD in CA


I'm at a loss how to describe it any more clearly - The Scripture is authoritative, meaning it is the basis for my understanding of God. Yet the Spirit continues to reveal God's involvement with us, and new revelations are not only possible, they are expected. Just as I am able to reconcile God in the OT with God in the NT as the same God with a new message, so I am able to understand that God can continue to bring new messages post-1st century. My criteria for believing whether it's the work of the Spirit or my personal preferences is simple: if it shows the love of God, it is most likely of God. If it somehow depletes God or God's people, it is not of God. Sometimes we're wrong in our assessments, but the Spirit is a pretty good guide, I think.

OK. I have veered us off-text long enough, and I apologize profusely to everyone. I now encourage us to return to the text and the discussion of Jesus/voice/sheep/hearing/not my sheep/eternal life/snatching/not snatching........

KHC


Laura in TX,

what you believe does make perfect sense:

We are to live by what WORDS Christ spoke: John 13:35 and John 6:63, and NOT just by his name, in order to not be decieved. Matthew 24:4-5.

So everyone everywhere who believes in Love actually believes in Christ, just as all xtians who beleive in Love also believe in Buddha and Moses and Gandhi and etc!

Universal Love


Can someone with better Greek skills than I tell me whether verse 26 has any ambiguity? Could it be "You do not belong to my sheep because you do not hear my voice"? I'm not trying to make the text say something it doesn't, I just want to be clear about what it actually does say! As I recall my Johannine lit course (almost 10 years ago now), that tended to be the slant much of John's telling of the stories tended to take: there was a clear us/them, but those who were part of the "them" were there by their own choice/stubbornness/hardeness of heart.

Heather in Sharon


Earlier (vs. 16) Jesus said, "I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold." It's not as though we human beings can easily identify who belongs to Jesus. And it's not up to the rest of us to decide which groups of sheep are acceptable, who is hearing and following Jesus' voice. The point is, if we hear and if we follow, we belong, no matter what.

Maybe somebody from another religion may hear Jesus' voice but not recognize it as such. The contrast is between those who hear Jesus' voice and follow, and those who take up stones to kill him, who actively reject him. This is not talking about those who faithfully and respectfully follow another religion and are concerned with the truth. Jesus is not tied to our religion. Jesus is free to speak to anyone he chooses, in whatever way he chooses.

Let's talk about something else. DGinNYC


The real question is not who's in and who's out, but where is Jesus leading us and are we willing to follow? Those are the most difficult questions to wrestle with because they demand a personal response.

DGinNYC


Thanks to DG in NYC for getting at what I was trying to say earlier--

For me this text has already been a real comfort personally this week. My father has been very sick for months, I'm getting ready (**supposed** to be getting ready) for a new appointment in June, and I've been nearly obsessed with immature imaginary conversations with the couple of parishioners who have not accepted me or my stab at leadership in this place, conversations that finally set the record straight, once and for all.

Finally last night as I lay in bed, frustrated with myself for all the stupid things I do under stress, I remembered that I can indeed hear Jesus' voice, and at the risk of sounding sappy, it's a sweet voice. And the word that no one, not even the Council of Idiots in my own head, can snatch me away from his care, felt like such a gift, a relief. There is indeed somebody bigger than me, someone else who justifies me so I don't have to. All that's necessary is for me to hear his voice and do my best to follow it.

Don't know quite how to preach from this without being so self-revelatory, but that's what's working in my head right now. Maybe the sermon will head toward helping folks discover or think about how they hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. (As someone said, this really isn't the right text for that, but it is in there.)

Please forgive my self-revelation in your midst!

Laura in TX


Okay, I'm a lay person preparing a sermon for a small church in Australia, oh and I'm 25, so go easy on me. With that qualification out of the way...

What makes someone a disciple if not their response to hearing Jesus' call? Are all people disciples? Clearly not. Jesus says "I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name testify to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." (sorry for the extended quote)

Whomever sees and hears God when they hear and see Jesus belong to the fold. However, I would hazard a guess that each of us on a Christian journey knows that to walk with Jesus is not to say that we will always walk in righteousness, never fall, fail or choose to deny Jesus.

God's grace thankfully allows that the 'gate' will never be closed, but I have experienced times when, even in my 'Christian-ness', I fail to hear Jesus' voice.

It is tough, but when we love things that stand in opposition to the God we meet in Jesus we are not hearing Jesus call. Not that we can't or won't, but we certainly aren't.

Ezekiel's prophecy calls to account a people who have lost sight of God's sovereignty over their lives. Similarly, Jesus challenges us to hear his voice and believe that his works witness to the glory of God.

Gee, that was longer than I meant it to be. Thanks for some good leads.

PAN