Scripture Text (NRSV)
23:1 Then Job answered:
23:2 "Today also my complaint is bitter; his hand is heavy despite my
groaning.
23:3 Oh, that I knew where I might find him, that I might come even to
his dwelling!
23:4 I would lay my case before him, and fill my mouth with arguments.
23:5 I would learn what he would answer me, and understand what he
would say to me.
23:6 Would he contend with me in the greatness of his power? No; but
he would give heed to me.
23:7 There an upright person could reason with him, and I should be
acquitted forever by my judge.
23:8 "If I go forward, he is not there; or backward, I cannot perceive
him;
23:9 on the left he hides, and I cannot behold him; I turn to the
right, but I cannot see him.
23:16 God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me;
23:17 If only I could vanish in darkness, and thick darkness would
cover my face!
Comments:
Having experienced much personal loss and tragedy, Job expressed his
anger about God, even though he was unable to locate God directly. Yet
through it all, Job did not doubt God's existence.
Avoid these words if you do not wish to enter the journey of one for
whom the search for God does not come easily. Job's words challenge
Psalm 139's confident declaration that there is no place one can go
without encountering God's presence. No matter what direction Jobe
turns (verses 8-9), God seems to elude him. Yet Job's lament voices a
faith that will not let go of covenant. For if Job separated himself
and his hope for vindication from God, there would be no conversation.
However hidden or removed they may be in his suffering, there are
still possibilities. So Job speaks in lament, and seeks to discern God
when all is a matter of trust.
Dear Friends,
This reply comes 2/3 of the way through the cycles of speeches.
Perhaps it is best heard in that light. Eliphaz has said he has done
some specific great sin(s) (22:5-11). Bildad has said that his
children deserved what they got (8:3-4). Zophar’s stated God isn’t
giving Job near what he deserves (11:6)! We know from God's statements
that Job has not.
Hello!!! Do you blame Job for wanting to go to God??? With friends
like this you don't need enemies.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
I am actually excited to preach a sermon on anger and doubt this week.
It is easier to be comforting in the pulpit (though our lectionary is
full of challenging readings this week) and it is safer to reach for
more heartwarming topics. (I've been thinking about this for weeks
now... the pastor down the road has had a series going which has, in
the past four weeks, highlighted 'God's Amazing... Love... Grace...
Hope... and this week 'Joy').
This week we have Job shaking his fist at God (wherever God is!) and
screaming in anger. Who hasn't felt this way? Who hasn't plunged into
the hard and ugly times? Who hasn't felt doubt or had a time when we
lacked the answers?
It is time to ponder the questions of a challenging faith and walk
that fine edge where our certainty is left behind. Where do we find
God's dwelling place when we are bitter and groaning? Great question!
TB in MN
Jewish theology held that God gave blessings for righteousness and
curses for unrighteousness. The book of Job counters that theology.
Job knows his "friends" are wrong about their conclusions, but they
are stuck in the old way of thinking. Job appeals to God for a
face-to-face confrontation to hammer this thing out. How many of us
would dare ask God to show up in Court to make his accusations against
us? No guilty person would demand an accounting of sins. I certainly
would not present this challenge to God. But Job was more than willing
for the meeting to be scheduled. He remains positive that God will
vindicate him in his undeserved suffering - or at any rate, release
him from it. Not only does he want it for his own benefit, but also to
zap those fire-breathing friends of his with the truth of Job's
predicament.
KHC
Dear TB in MN,
I am going back to read the passage again. I did not come away
thinking Job was angry with God. Indeed it is as if he will find
solace there. If he is angry it is with his three friends who are
driving him to desperation to get away from them! Like I said, I am
going back to read it again.
Mike in Sunshine
This is a technical question. Reexamining the cycles of speeches I
notice Zophar did not get in on the third round. He is replaced by
Elihu. Elihu gets the longest speech. Is this the same pattern in
Revelation? You get to the last trumpet, the behold seven cups. Get to
the last of the cups and behold seven bowls? Does anyone know if this
pattern shows up in other parts of the scriptures?
Also, Elihu is not mentioned in the end as one of those that must get
Job to pray for them. Any guesses as to what is going on and why he is
not?
Mike in Sunshine
TB,
Great Question! Where do we find God's dwelling place when we are
bitter and groaning? When certainty eludes us?
I am dealing right now with a young woman in our congregation who is
having an MRI done this week, with a possible bone biopsy to follow.
She has spots on her arm and hip, that could be calcium, or
pre-cancerous. She has a family history of cancer and lots of issues
that could lead either way. It is a scary time. She is 41, a wife and
mother of two elementary aged children. And top of all of her own
concerns for this week, her husband's sister showed up on their
doorstep two nights ago, and she is homeless! Enough already! "God has
made my heart faint; the almighty has terrified me." This raises too
that old question of did God cause this? or natural circumstance? or
Satan? There are times in all of our lives when difficulties make it
hard to see God's hand.
Anonymous
A friend of this forum referred me to this link. It is and excellent
article on the whole book of Job. http://cspar181.uah.edu/RbS/JOB/sem00.html
Mike in Sunshine
Let's add one more little flip to the story- If Job is demanding a
face to face meeting with God, wouldn't he die (if we accept the
Hebrew idea that one cannot see God's face and live)? Given his
situation, he might just want death to come... It changes how one
thinks about verses 16-17.
Playing with ideas, TB in MN
Just ask an abused child if he or she wouldn't rather fall through the
floor and disappear than endure one more day. God, who is supposed to
love and protect is nowhere in sight. The abusing person is like these
friends of Job, slapping him around - verbally, in this case - while
you don't even understand why. It is terrifying. You feel absolutely
alone. Nobody listens. Nobody cares. And sometime children endure this
because their parents believe it is God's will that we chase the "Bad"
out of them by this abuse.
Not signing this
Have we hit a brick wall on this passage? Over 18 hours and not a
word!
Mike in Sunshine
Dear Friends,
I will probably be gone most of the rest of this week. It looks like I
have patients in hospitals in NC and Georgia. I am posting my notes
for your thoughts. It is a very rough draft but it may be all I will
get for a couple of days.
http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20031012.htm
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
While the friends do not help much, Job's complaint is with God and
perhaps even with himself. Several writers suggest that Job before all
the suffering would have given the same advice as the friends-evil is
punished, good is rewarded, get right with God. But Job is no longer
the same man we meet in chapter 1. Everything has been taken from him,
except life (with which Job is none too thrilled).His foundations have
been not simply shaken, but eliminated.
So, when everything you have believed is gone, where do you
stand.There is a story that may come from Elie Weisel's book "Night".
A butcher, a meatcutter, has lost everything-family, friends,
position, possessions-so every night he goes outside the town and
screams and curses into the darkness.But after many nights, he comes
to know that he does this because he believes the something or someone
is listening, and that in some strange ways his cries have become a
prayer.
revgilmer in texarkana
To 'not signing this':
You know Job well. This is a heartbreaking passage and many of us have
lived in heartbreaking times. It brings to mind the line from the
hymn, "I will break their hearts of stone, give them hearts for love
alone..."
The comfort and hope that I find came to me in some advice from a
pastor- He made the observation (following a very tough time in my
life) that grief and pain are only possible in relation to our
capacity to love. While I would never imagine applying that advice to
abuse, we do have the comfort of knowing that God will come to Job,
answers and understanding will be offered and we will not end this
journey in sorrow. Grace comes... and so we can hold to hope.
And, if it helps to know, I care. Your post touched me and I
understand it better than you might imagine.
TB in MN
TB in MN. Thank you.
To TB,
I appreciate the advice your pastor gave you, that "grief and pain are
only possible in relation to our capacity to love." So true.
The other thought that I had regarding the passage about God being
difficult to be perceived, beheld, and seen in these difficult times,
is because we are expecting different from Him. If all we expect to
see from God is blessing and promise and joy, then, we are going to be
hardpressed when he is with us in tragedy, in pain, and in turmoil. It
doesn't mean He isn't there. It means we are looking for the wrong
things.
As was mentioned before about the young woman with the possibility of
cancer. Maybe the terrifying part is the realization that the Pastor
may have to walk through a very painful journey with her and her
family, when that wasn't the desired or the expected journey. So, how
do we find God in the midst of the journey she may have to take? And
do we trust enough to know that God is there, and that there might
even be joy on that chosen journey, even though it wasn't what we
would want?
I think this passage too goes wonderfully with the Gospel. The Rich
Young man thought he had God all figured out. He could reason with
him, he would be acquitted.But then God asks him something unexpected.
Life happens, tragedy hits. And when we go forward he isn't there
(where we expected him to be) When we go backward, we cannot perceive
him ( our preconceived ideas don't match up.) God seems to be hiding
from us, and we can't seem to see him. Our hearts are faint, and He
has terrified us.(God has burst out of the box we have placed him in
and it is terrifying!) We want to hide. The Rich Young Ruler walked
away sad.
Oooh, I can hardly wait for Sunday. I think I will title my sermon,
"When God Eludes Us."
Susan
another side note. This reminds me of the song popular in the 70's or
80's, "looking for love in all the wrong places."
Susan in Wa.
Susan in WA, it reminds me of the title of the old Beatles' song "The
long and winding road that leads to your door....."
KHC
Yes, KHC,
we must be from the same generation!
In the August, 2003 issue of "Christian Century", there was this
article: "Job on Prozac". Can you think of anyone more deserving of an
antidepressant than Job? Job's trouble was not biochemical. It was
spiritual fidelity. King Herod relied on the Paxil Romana, and look
what it got him! This is not to discount genuine depression. It is to
admit that There isn't enough balm in Gilead to heal a sinsick soul,
much less infirmity brought on by God's faith in one as devoted as
Job. It's Tuesday, but Sunday's coming.
Ephesians 3: 14 - 21, Oklahoma Irishman
In the August, 2003 issue of "Christian Century", there was this
article: "Job on Prozac". Can you think of anyone more deserving of an
antidepressant than Job? Job's trouble was not biochemical. It was
spiritual fidelity. King Herod relied on the Paxil Romana, and look
what it got him! This is not to discount genuine depression. It is to
admit that There isn't enough balm in Gilead to heal a sinsick soul,
much less infirmity brought on by God's faith in one as devoted as
Job. It's Thuesday, but Sunday's coming.
Ephesians 3: 14 - 21, Oklahoma Irishman
This is a very late submission but thought I'd send it along anyway.
My sermon is entitled Cheap Grace. It's so easy these days to have a
theology based on the sticky sweet stuff from stories sent over the
internet and televsion. Job gets to the reality of our faith. Is our
faith based on a magical God who saves us from accidents and cures us
of cancer? Or is it based on a deeper, sincere, unanswerable mystery
that there is something more in life? My understadning of Job is that
he never does recieve an answer from God about why all these bad
things happen to him. And in the end he is content to live with that
mystery because all he really needed was proof that God actually
existed. Can we live with that? I am grateful for a God that will let
me rail and wail. Sometimes I sure wish that God would wave a magic
wand and make it all better. For now I am glad God is there.
