My 1st impressions of this text are always the same: New Agey type stuff. I know people who actually worship the modern-day equivalent of an unknown god. from my Christian perspective, I cannot understand the need to worship - ** as I understand worship ** - a god we don't know. It seems as if the Gospel lesson is giving us the link - "I am in the father, I am in you and you in me." and Paul tells us that he is our God made known.
This might be a good week to talk about worship. I'm trying to encourge folks to think about and be more purposeful about discipleship in general. Worship is part of that. Are we, in essence, worshiping one Whom we haven't taken the time or energy to know as well as we could? Has worship become rote, or something good folks do on Sunday morning?
Sally in GA
I would take the slant that Paul preaches using what is already there, indigenous in the culture. How many times have we thrown out anything indigenous with those we have ministered to in order to win them to Christ? How stupid is that? God is already there in most cultures; just maybe not known. this goes for the subculture of roller bladers who would never come to church; but may come into your parking lot if the church let them skate there! Then when they are there, put on a helmet, get on your skates, and get to know them on their turf. You'll be surprised to find God is already there.
Jeff in BAth
"In God we live and move and have our being."I believe that the "God Presence" is able to be seen in the created world, is in the people we meet, is in the very air we breath. God is present in us. the "Tiger" in this scripture is that we often do not have the "eyes" to see, the "ears" to hear or the "heart" to feel that presence.
"In God we live and move and have our being."I believe that the "God Presence" is able to be seen in the created world, is in the people we meet, is in the very air we breath. God is present in us. the "Tiger" in this scripture is that we often do not have the "eyes" to see, the "ears" to hear or the "heart" to feel that presence.
I believe it is the task - work - ministry - responsibility of the church (body of Christ) to help each other and those outside our church walls to hear, see, and feel - experience the God Presence. I LOVE the idea of putting on roller blades and going out in the parking lot and inviting young people in so you can get to know them.God is indeed present in other peoples lives. Just because we do not have our stamp on it does not mean God is not there. When we take the time to listen and "see" the God presence in others and can affirm that with them or help them identify it - that is when faith grows strong.
AHA! dialog asks the question - Do fish know they are in water? Do they know "water" even though they are IN it? What are some more practical ways we can suggest to congregations to help people discover the God, Christ, Spirit presence that they are living it?
I am just thinking - got any help?
jmj in WI
"From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth..."
Um, excuse me Paul, but was that "one ancestor" Adam or Eve?
Pastor Andy
I too would like to focus on worship, reminding ourselves that we are a mixed back when it comes to what is most important to us (what/who we attribute the greatest worth to). Even we Christians have a pretty good dose of human make-up (thank God for that) which means that my worship of God is not "pure". Yet, in worship, we get to bring our whole selves, warts and all, to God, in whom I live and move and have my being. We give worth to so many things and people. I suppose that on this Sunday, I would like to remind the folks that, with all these competing allegiances, there is One who we are invited to turn to with thankful hearts. Any other thoughts on worship??
Tom in TO
Pastor Andy,
Perhaps Paul was refering to the first human (adam) who was neither fully male nor female. Then adam was divided into ish and ishah, neither of which was identical to adam. Ish and ishah were then given the proper names Adam and Eve.
SheepDog in MI
Jeff in Bath,
I think you are "right on" about this scripture. I am reminded of the failures western missionaries experienced when they assumed that their culture and values were synonymous with Christianiy. So you end up with missionaries in corsets and long dresses or shirts, ties and suitcoats in Hawaii telling Polynesian natives that their skimpy dress is sinful,when it was actually healthy for their climate!
All too often we make the mistake of assuming we know all God's values and they resemble our cultural values. Paul is so wise to realize that God was there before him. This wisdom enabled him to reach the Greeks and Romans, because he accepted that God was already in their midst in the form of the unknown God.
This lack of understanding that God always, always, always goes before us is crippling the church today. The truth is in the United States every generation has its own language, values and culture that are shaped by formative events in the growing up years. Formative events like the Depression, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, the deaths of JFK, RK and Martlin Luther King, the Challenger Crash, the rate of divorce and drug and alcohol addiction, Columbine and Sept. 11, 2001 affect the values of each generation and make them different.
If you can't tell I'm passionate about this issue! I completed a doctoral degree and my research was on how to bridge the generation gap within the church. The truth is unless we honor the unknown God, unless we truly believe that God goes before us, unless we help every new generation make the gospel new and relevant for their time the church as we know it will not survive. Afterall, whether you sing a gospel, country, traditional, hardrock, classical or rap version of Amazing Grace the meanning is still the same. It's amazing God saved a wretch like me. I can't earn that grace, I don't deserve it, I just get to accept it. Peace, Diana at the Lakes
Title: "Mission in the Marketplace"
The mission of the church is to take the message to where the people are. Paul starts in the synagogue (church), goes into the marketplace (the supermarket, work place etc.), and is TAKEN up to the Areopogus (the University - New Agey stuff or whatever titilates the intellect).
This passage shows us that Mission begins with a broken heart - Paul was disturbed by the idols he saw. I don't know about you, but I am broken hearted by the idols that consume cultures around the world.
Mission searches for common ground. Paul was not threatened by the Stoics and Epicureans - rather he identified with those parts of their beliefs that pointed to the true God. Christians are not threatened by 'non-Christian' beliefs/thoughts. Wherever truth exists, we find an opporunity to point people to Jesus Christ. Paul even uses their own philosophers.
Other points worth noting: Mission acknowledges the human search for God; assures that God is near (an appeal to Stoic pantheistic ideas); calls for repentance; is driven by the urgency of the coming judgement; proclaims the resurrection hope for all people because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Early thoughts from a Canadian in Scotland.
I wonder why the "Lectionary gods" (as someone has recently called them) decided to leave off vv. 16-21 ... they are rather important for setting the scene. I'm going to include them in our reading of this passage!
It is important to note that although Paul was "deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols" and debating with prominent philosophers of the day, he is nonetheless respectful of the Athenians. He does not condemn their religions or philosophies, but acknowledges what is contained therein that is true and then offers the Truth of Jesus Christ. Would that all missionary work was carried out with as much respect for the indigenous beliefs.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Diane and Jeff: You are both on to something. Diane I would like to hear more of your work. Most church people miss the point of trying new ways to attract people. Paul does not scold or tell the people they were bound for hell. Instead he compliments them on their spiritual quest.
What might we find walking through the mall on a Saturday afternoon--what can we devise to bring the gospel to the people we see there?
Just some thoughts-- Paula in sunny Florida
I'm with jmjinWI. What are some more practical ways to help people discover the God in whom they live (and who lives in them...from the gospel). There are many in the pews (at least here) who have not discovered God in/and Jesus Christ. Maybe I should say, have not "experienced" any one of the trinity. ARE there practical ways to accomplish this? MaxinNC
Uh - I guess I missed something ... when did anyone suggest threatening hell to counter worship of idols? I didn't see a post pertaining to that until someone started warning against that tactic.
Paul affirms their deep religiosity. He wants to point them to the Truth, to amend, or zero in on what they'r looking for. In Wesleyan language, it might be called "Prevenient Grace," the period of time when we know that we're missing something - and when we may (my favorite example) look for love in all the wrong places, including idols and New Agey type stuff.
I used to live a couple blocks away from Atlanta's answer to the Haight Ashbury, and you can get all kinds of spiritual stuff there (not to mention "spiritual stuff"), but none of it that I ever saw was Judeo-Christian, and only a tiny bit was Muslim. However, one could purchase statuettes of gods and goddesses, colorful stones to heal your soul, herbs, vitamins, tapes & CD's of spiritual music, gongs and chimes and crystals, alongside - uh - stylish - clothing in a store called Throb. Go get something pierced, branded, or embedded, or be content to sit in on a bongo-playing circle. Eat all-natural vegetarian foods in a restaurant that shares a parking lot with a liquor store. Buy all-natural 100% cotton clothing before going to the beauty shop to get your hair dyed blue. I always feel (and look) pretty square when I go there. I don't condemn them nor do I go into the crystal store or the stores that sell gods and goddesses or the store that sells bongs and shout hell, fire, and brimstone.
this place, called "Little Five Points," pretty much exemplifies the searching within human souls. That this has been the scene for a racially-motivated hate crime, ties it in with our upcoming Annual Conference's theme of racial reconciliation.
Sally in GA
Oh, and as an interesting thing I remember from the 1st time I lived there - it was quite the hullabaloo that the producers of "Driving Miss Daisy" wanted to put a sign in the window of Sevananda food co-op that advertised bacon. What was then Sevananda (and is now a wilderness store) was the Piggly Wiggly in the movie and it was quite the community struggle. It was flat-out against their principles to even put a sign up advertising something from a dead animal. While that wasn't exactly religion per se, this was a deep conviction these folks held. Even tho' I'm not a vegetarian, I tended to side with the food co-op. The producers won.
And, sad to say, there's even a Starbucks a block down.
Sigh ... from a city slicker
Sally in GA
I think focusing on the worship of idols misses Paul's genius in this situation. The reason Paul was such an amazing missionary was his ability to see God in every circumstance, in every place, and in every culture. I can't imagine him doing ministry in the places he did if he didn't know the Holy Spirit had gone before him. I also think he knew that we humans are created with a yearning for the holy. All he had to do was find a way to tap into that yearning for the holy. All he had to do was present the truth of the gospel in such a way that it connected with their yearning for the holy.
By the way, one of my Methodist colleagues down the road says that the time to do a street survey is Sunday morning. His downtown church started a second site and has gone from 135 in average attendance to over 450 in five years. One of the things he did was an informal survey to see what folks were doing in his town, who weren’t going to worship on Sunday morning. Then he strategized how his congregation might reach those folks. It’s worked!
Paula, thanks for your interest in my work. If we can’t sing the good news, share the faith and preach the gospel in simple yet profound ways that are relevant today mainline Protestant churches will continue to miss future generations. We have not reached the majority of Boomers and Gen Xers. We will soon be on our way to missing the Millennials. For my research project I developed a retreat called “Retreating to Bridge the Generation Gap”. The retreat involved educating today’s youth and adult generations to their differences and their similarities. In the process we tried to build understanding, community and hopefully acceptance that different generations value different things yet all can be faithful. By the end of the retreat the goal was to increase awareness about why the form of church life might need to change so that the substance of the gospel could better be shared with younger generations. The retreat resulted in a strategy to reach younger generations. The research was oriented to pastoral size churches, which I believe tend to be dominated by one generation. Hope this helps.
Diana at the Lakes
Thanks Diane for your response. I agree that many church people just do not understand what it takes to reachout to different generations. They make very little effort. Sounds like your retreat worked well. I've tried to do workshops in the evning but very few bothered to attend. So the problem continues and the church continues to fail to reach younger generations.
Paula in sunny Fl.
Hi all.
A brief bit of background. The worshipppers of the Greek Pantheon were expected to offer a sacrifice of thanks when they received a favour from one of the gods (a good harvest, birth of a son, you name it). Each god has his/her own area of "specialization" (you might say), and worshipppers were expected to say thanks to the correct god.
This "to an unknown god" altar/chapel was set up to address the uncomfortable situation of a divine favour being received, but which god had granted the favour was unknown. The worshipper could offer a thanksgiving sacrifice or prayer at this chapel, and stay "in good" with whatever god "out there" had helped out. After all, it would not do to appear ungrateful! Next time you might not be so lucky!
This doesn't really tie in too much the previous discussion, but I thought it might help spark some ideas.
Rick in Canada, eh?
Sheep Dog,
Interesting idea. I don't know biblical hebrew (or any other for that matter!) so I usually read the text with only the sparsest knowledge of the original language (a handicap, I know!). When considering the creation of humanity from a literalist point of view, I always understood Gen. 1:26-27 as being a spiritual creation, then 2:7 as being the physical creation. In that sense, I understood Adam a being formed from the dust of the earth as a physical being, complete and finished. The only subsequent alteration being the removal of the rib to make the woman.
I'm not sure what my point is exactly, especially since I am not a strict literalist and my original comment was mostly intended to be rather glib. But it is interesting to note and discuss these little "Hmmmmmmmm" moments encountered in scripture.
Pastor Andy.
Diana at the Lakes,
A few years ago there was an article in our local paper about a Free Methodist church that was growing by leaps and bounds. When discussing the process that lead to such growth, the pastor spoke of their struggles years before, when times were not so good. He said that they had tremendous success in missions (I don't remember if he was speaking directly of his church or more broadly of his denomination) but were stagnant back home. They looked at the question of "what are we doing abroad that we are not doing at here?" and the answer was - learning about and using indigenous culture. They realized that at home, they took it for granted that they knew what was going on in their world, when in reality they were vastly out of touch. Long and short, they adapted and grew. Think "line dancing in worship"! Not my particular cup of tea, but if it reaches people with the Gospel, why not?!
Pastor Andy
Even for those of us who know Jesus and strive to live as his disciples, isn't there a part, a LARGE PART of God that is "Unknown"? "In him we live and move and have our being," and not all of us perceive and/or acknowledge his presence. But even those of us who do, there are always moments, or long stretches, of groping, struggling, wrestling. The gift of Christ is that we have a connection, a starting point to which we work forward to the Father (a possible tie-in to the either of the John texts).
Just meandering...
Pastor Andy
It is fitting that Paul should bring out the idea of Jesus as judge in this sermon in Acts since he was standing on the Areopagus, the most famous judgment ground of Athens. Paul says that Jesus is the appointed Judge because God raised him from the dead. In the Greek the word for resurrection is anastasis, and as soon as the word is out of Paul’s mouth, the crowd goes wild. They scoff. They leave. They laugh. Paul is definitely mad. Resurrection—anastasis—impossible! You see, those educated Athenians know their Greek plays. In one of the most famous plays, ”The Eumenides,” by Aeschylus, Orestes is on trial for killing his mother. This trial takes place on the Areopagus. In a famous line from this play, Apollo says: "once the dust has drained down all a mortal's blood, once the mortal has died, there is no anastasis--no resurrection-- no raising the mortal up again. This is a thing for which my father never made curative spells. All other states, without effort of hard breath, he can completely rearrange." In other words, Zeus, Apollo's father, can bring about all things except resurrection. That is the one thing that is impossible. Once a mortal has died . . . It's over. But here is Paul, 500 years later standing in the same place as Apollo, saying that a mortal has been resurrected from the dead. Belief in the resurrection becomes the stumbling block, the slippery surface that causes human faith to fall for those Athenians. And it is not so different from our situation today. As a matter of fact, the smooth pink rock that lies on the Areopagus is so slippery that nowadays an ambulance is typically parked down beneath it for those who fall on the rocks and hurt themselves. All of us face difficulties in believing, we slide and stumble in our faith. Blessings, Carla from TX
I too agree with Jeff and Diana! Paul does a great job of "meeting people where they are at" so to speak. We should do so well in the church today! We live in a highly "intellectual/high tech" culture with "many gods". If we can't begin to risk something new and maybe uncomfortable in order to meet folks where they are and then take them farther, we're in bad shape. revjaw
"Idols to an unknown God." Being the first Sunday of the month, our congregation will celebrate Communion and I am planning to use this passage to remind folks that our God longs to know us and be known by us. The sacrament is one of the ways we Presbyterian types believe that we can draw near to God know him as we experience his 'real presence.' I also plan to use the incarnation passage in John 1:1-5;14 to talk about God taking the initiative to know us, pairing it with Jesus' invitation to the table
T.L. in Nashville
Thanks, all, for your thoughts. Especially on idol worhip and the "unknown god." I used to think that about churches called "All Saints" when I was a kid.
Prevenient grace - grace that goes before. We experience it as wooing - and may respond by idol worship. I agree that this can be Jesus' way of "meeting us where we're at," as a beginning point. But that's just it: it's a beginning point. Beginning points ought not be confused with discipleship. Although Christ's wooing us (to borrow Wesley) is his relationship with us, and ours with him (unknown to us at that point), I cannot accept that prevenient grace is sufficient for Christ-led discipleship. It's still looking for love in all the wrong places.
Well, I'm sticking with my theme of worship. I'm going to be different (for me) this time and do a three-pointer. #1) What is worship #2) We worship that which we value, #3) We worship that which we know - early working outline. sometimes we forget that God responds to our worship, a good communion theme.
Sally
I like what I've heard about Paul's witness emerging from the culture of which he is a part. Within the church, we often use so many "churchy" words, that people who have no Christian memory haven't got the foggiest idea what we are talking about. Yet all humans share common experiences - like hope, or brokeness, or separation, etc. Like Paul, our witness might want to begin in these places, where we share a common experience and language, build a relationship, and within that context share the meaning of Jesus with others. Some thoughts ....
Tom
