Holy Kiss? That could be trouble these days.
I long ago chose to preach from this text for Trinity Sunday. Now that it will be upon me in six days, I realize that this text, like the entire New Testament, really offers nothing in terms of describing the Trinity. It simply acknowledges it. Should we try to describe "God in three persons," or should we simply acknowledge ways that we have seen each member of the Trinity at work in our lives?
-Dale in Chattanooga
This is Peace With Justice Sunday in the United Methodist Church. OK folks, help me out: As a 46-year-old who grew up in the shadow of the Cold War, barely escaped the Vietnam draft by about a year, served (as Congress and the Pentago puts it) in the Vietnam-era, I find myself asking, "What is Peace With Justice?" I believe I could build a case around this very Scripture, but in this state of international affairs it is obvious that Peace With Justice is one thing to the U.S., while certainly another to the al-Qaida; one thing to the Israelis, while certainly another to the Palestinians ... I'm sure you get my drift. I suppose the question is this: What is Peace With Justice to Jesus Christ? The Cross? (He made peace with the Father on our behalf through justification on the Cross.)
PastorBuzz in Tennessee
The passage does NOT leave out 'The grace', rather, there seems to be a variation in where the verses ought to be. The NIV and the REV, have a verse 14 whilst the NRSV has only verse 13. What IS missing in the above text on the DPS is the phrase "All the saints greet you" - I suspect that is just a typing error.
Although I strive to the 'orthodox' in my understanding of the trinity, I must hold my hands up and say, "Wow! This is too awesome for me to get my head 'round! What a mystery! Amazing!" Trinity Sunday inevitably invites me - NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE THREE IN ONE - but rather to EXPERIENCE THE MYSTERY OF GOD'S BEING! Experience the grace of Jesus Christ. Experience the love of God. Experience the communion/fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
Do our church 'communions' point to this mystery by being 'fellowships' marked by grace and love? BIG CHALLENGE - at least in my church.
A Canadian in Scotland.
Canadian: I think you hit the nail on the head. If we really COULD get our minds around it, we wouldn't need God. Or, our relationship with God would be distilled into an intellectual exercise and of course that would end up being Pharisaically reserved for the highest IQ's. Frankly, I have little patience for talking heads - I'm a pretty practical person.
Same with Peace with Justice. In acknowledging Peace with Justice, I'm going to hold it as the ideal, when all nations are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Almost every time when I offer the prayer over our offering, I pray that the ministry we support will "make disciples of all people, races, and nations." Maybe i'll elaborate on that. I'm not going to get into politics. I respect the members of my congregation, 95% WW II "Greatest Generation" folks, and my late baby-boomer perspective (1962) simply doesn't understand peace and justice the same way they do.
Sally in GA
The nameless contribution about the holy kiss said that it could be dangerous these days. I would say that the 'holy' before the kiss was Paul's way of saying that this was not to be a kiss with sexual connotations. People then, as now, were just as sexual as we moderns (we delude ourselves if we think our morals are worse than our anscestors).
For British/Canadian/American cultures we have little concept of the kiss as a purely innocent form of greeting. My wife is French and I must say that it took some time to get used to the kiss as a form of greeting (a kiss on both cheeks - sometimes two, three, or four - depending on local custom). I think it is a shame that Christians of British origins are so 'hung up' about physical expression in worship - whether it be clapping, dancing, hugging, or kissing. Now I understand that there may be those who cannot express themselves in this way for very valid reasons (ie - physical and sexual abuse). But is it not sad that the God who expressed his love through the gracious physicalality of Jesus Christ and who initiated the disciples into a communion of saints, cannot express their faith physically - in a manner consistant with holiness? After all, touch is vital to our human development. A Canadian in Scotland.
I am leaning toward a combination of Trinity, Memorial, and Peace w/Justice. The various comments here and on the other lectionary pages are very helpful. I think I'm going to center on the part of verse 11 that says, "Put things in order." God put everything in order first, creating order out of chaos. Memorial Day honors those who died in trying to bring Peace With Justice to people in various places around the world. Isn't this part of "putting things in order?" However, as humans we seem to just keep causing more chaos, in spite of [at least sometimes] having the best of intentions.
RevJanet in CNY
PastorBuzz in Tennessee...
Granted you asked for help with Peace and Justice... still I think this relates...
I heard a young gal a DWU College student... April... speak at a recent (March 13-15) "Walk to Emmaus"... her topic? Mercy and Justice... She first said, Mercy without Justice is not Mercy... and Justice without Mercy is not Justice...
Her examples...
Feeding one hungry person is Mercy... but feeding a population... is Justice
Looking at our environment... Picking up one more aluminum can is Mercy... but helping to see that proper legislation and laws are in place to protect our environment is Justice...
I would think one could use a similar analogy with Peace and Justice... Peace without Justice is not Peace.... and Justice without Peace is not Justice...
blessings, Pulpitt in ND
I'm taking part in a study on preaching and the assigned texts for this week are this one in conjunction with Psalm 8. I'm planning to call the sermon "In Three Part Harmony" and deal with differing "voices" [i.e., parts] that the Persons of the Trinity play, while still being united in one "song". [ I.e., C.S. Lewis had the Great Lion Aslan "sing" creation, and Calvin Miller, in his trilogy, calls Christ the Singer and the work of salvation the Song.] Two-thirds of the Trinity are fairly easy to see in the Psalm: Creator, v.1, "When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars that you have established..."; Sustainer, v.3, "....what are human beings that you are mindful of them, mortals that you care for them?" The Redeemer "part" is a little harder to see in the Psalm, unless you use an alternative translation, like James Luther Mays [Interpretation Commentary: Psalms, pp. 65-6] does for Psalm 8.2:
Your splendor above the heavens is praised
from the mouth of babes and infants.
You have established power because of your foes,
to quell enemy and avenger.
It seems to me that the ongoing song, the "music of the spheres," if you will, is a song of Divine grace, love, and communion, for which we can all say/sing in response: "O LORD, our Sovereign, how majestic is your name in all the earth!"
Early thoughts... txrev
PS: Frank, thank for adding v. 13!
Dale in Chatanooga,
IMHO, explaining the Trinity (if such a thing can be done) belongs in the context of a class, were give and take, agreement and disagreement, diliberate, intelligent and respectful discussion can take place. To attempt such an explination from the pulpit seems to me a mine field of stratospheric meanderings that many in the pews would find boring, pompous, and confusing. The potential for misunderstanding looms too large.
I'm choosing option B: "acknowledge ways that we have seen each member of the Trinity at work in our lives" as you put it. It's still a very rough idea (it's only Tuesday and already I'm feeling desperate!) but I'm thinking of focusing on Psalm 8; Look at all God is capable of; look how small we feel. How can the limitless, astounding God have a relationship with finite beings as us? God make Godself known in smaller, easier to manage personalities. More later.
Pastor Andy.
txrev,
I am interested in your reference to Calvin Miller's trilogy and Christ as singer, the work of salvation--the song. Can you tell me where to find this piece? thanks for the insight! I had a mini epiphany while rereading this text. I too use this (v, 13) as a benediction, as my father did for so many years. I have struggled with the concept of God in a triangle and yet didn't realize I allude to the threeness of God's oneness in the benediction every Sunday. I admit I'm new to this business of pastoring a congregation. BB in IL
On "holy" kissin', My understanding received from my New Testament Greek professor is that a holy kiss was a hand shake or embrace as in passing the peace. The holy kiss has significance in relation to the second and third person of the trinity in particular. Through the power of the Holy Spirit we transmit to another the living presence of Christ and experience the peace of Christ. TN Mack
BB in IL, Calvin Miller wrote the trilogy in the mid - late 70's. The bibliographic data is as follows:
Miller, Calvin. _The Singer_. Downers Grove, Ill.: Intervarsity Press, 1975.
________. _The Song_. Downers Grove, Ill.: Intervarsity Press, 1977.
________. _The Finale_. Downers Grove, Ill.: Intervarsity Press, 1979.
Hope this helps.
txrev
I've known people (other women) down here in the South who don't hesitate to greet me with a peck on the cheek. I don't know whether it's holy or not - a woman in my former church would give me a kiss and say, "Love you," and be stabbing me in the back.
Anyways, perhaps it's the feeling that's more important: "greet each other with holy intimacy, a spiritual bond."
I'm hashing out the peace/justice and science/faith themes from this page and the Psalm. I'm tending to agree with Einstein (as posted on the Psalm page), "a sense of wonder and awe is one of the most essential characteristics of a good scientist."
Maybe the same is true with peace and justice. I can't consider myself to be a pacifist, but it's clear that there is a higher order to which we're called. I also think that it will be Christ, not us, who brings it about. People a lot smarter than I haven't reached a conclusion they all agree on - so, maybe this is another area in God's world we simply can't get our mind around.
This is when we accept that our definition or understanding about God and God's world is incomplete and simply wonder about the rest. And most of us can agree that God is awesome.
Sally
Dear txrev -
Is it the "Preaching Project" that you're involved in - me too! I'm mining for ideas myself to pull the themes together of Psalm 8 and 2 Corinthians. I may try to pull out the "holy kiss" as creation imagery - God breathing life into creatures and the creation. Not sure yet.
Pastor Kerra in PA
I just thought of a children's sermon idea: jogged by a posting on the children's semron page.
"A Holy Kiss" - wouldn't it be nice if everyone could just give out kisses (Hershey's, of course)? People would accept it as a gesture of friendship and sharing, as food is a universal symbol of good will.
Greeting each other with holy kiss is a lot like this concept would be. Reaching out in friendship. A small investment in Hershey's kisses (and they even have hugs these days) and voila.
On the adult level, I think of the kiss-sharing idea a lot like the time I shared a two-fer coupon at McDonald's during my residency at an inner-city hospital. I can't cure world hunger with coupons for free Big Macs, but I can make a difference for one person (you've all heard that corny starfish story, haven't you?). Likewise, we can't bring world peace and justice by sharing a kiss, but we can bring good will to one person.
Sally in GA
Wasn't clear on the Big Mac illustration - sorry. Outside this inner-city hospital, many homeless and poor people hung out. During my year there, there was major construction going on at the hospital, so even more people came hoping to get hired as a day laborer at the construction site. Some who didn't get hired would panhandle. I'm ashamed to admit that I wasn't as generous as I could have been. I'd have a different attitude today. I did, however, once use a two-for-one coupon at the McDonald's several feet away from the hospital to buy a panhandler a sandwich.
Sally
About the "kiss" imagery as creation imagery... if you have Leonard Sweet's book POSTMODERN PILGRIMS, there's a whole chapter on "the Holy Kiss" in the introduction, lots of history about the liturgical practice from the early church on thru, great quotes, generally awesome Len Sweet kind of material if you're into that.
Now that I've re-read it, it's hard not to want to preach it word for word. Do you ever get "too much information" for a sermon? Now it's time to decide what way to go...Hmmmmm...
Pastor Kerra in PA
I'm talking about the Trinity this weekend...
More than Father, Son, Holy Spirit.... deal...
My sermon title: "The Tootsie Roll Man... aka..."
Each of us wears several different hats throughout our lives. We start out as children... or brothers and sisters to our siblings... then we're students... or preparatory members of a church? soon we may become Aunts and Uncles, class mates, neighbors, friends, cousins, then we?re boyfriend and girlfriend, spouses, parents? not necessarily in that or any particular order. Finally Grand parents? sponsors, co-workers? etc. etc. etc.
This week, my wife and I went to Sam?s Club, she?s a school teacher and it was her turn to bring ?office treats? ? she chose Hot Tamale?s so as we went further down the JUMBO candy aisle? I grabbed a huge bag of Tootsie Rolls and said, ?These are for THE OFFICE?? and with a wink and a grin I shoved them in our cart.
The next day, I took the bag of Tootsie Rolls to the office, all 5 lbs of it. Sharon was more than willing to move the Salt Water Taffee over and make room for them in the candy bowl on her desk.
After filling it to overflowing? I took a jar of them over to the Pre-School, met a few of them in the Library? and handed out a tootsie Roll to each one. The rest were having a sharing time? around a circle in their main room.
I came in and asked their teacher, Connie, if I could share some candy with them? ?SURE!? said she. I said I had quite a few?and asked how many she wanted the kids to have. ?One each, is fine!? So, I started sharing my candy with each tiny open hand. ?Children?? said the teacher, ?Do you know who this is??
One sharp 4 year-old piped up? ?Yep, he?s the Tootsie Roll Man!? The proclamation through us both off a bit? she then said, ?Well, yes, he IS THAT, but he?s also the PASTOR of this church!?
Yes, each of us will take on many hats in this game of life. God works that way? it?s a God-thing! God comes to us in many different ways so that we might EACH have a clearer understanding of who God is for each of us.
On this Trinity Sunday? it?s not just a ?Father, but a Mother too, not just a son but a daughter too? not just a Spirit but a presence too?
pulpitt in ND ;?)
In his wonderful way with words...
Eugene H Peterson?s ?The Message? paraphrases ....
this passage II Corinthians 13:11-14
as follows....
?And that?s about it, friends.
Be cheerful. Keep things in good repair.
Keep your spirits up.
Think in harmony.
Be agreeable.
Do all that, and the God of love and peace will be with you for sure. Greet one another with a holy embrace.
All the brothers and sisters here say hello.
The amazing grace of the Master,
Jesus Christ, the extravagant love of God,
the intimate friendship of the Holy spirit, be with all of you.?
pulpitt in ND ;?)
I'm talking about the Trinity this weekend...
More than Father, Son, Holy Spirit.... deal...
My sermon title: "The Tootsie Roll Man... aka..."
Each of us wears several different hats throughout our lives. We start out as children... or brothers and sisters to our siblings... then we're students... or preparatory members of a church? soon we may become Aunts and Uncles, class mates, neighbors, friends, cousins, then we're boyfriend and girlfriend, spouses, parents- not necessarily in that or any particular order. Finally Grand parents- sponsors, co-workers- etc. etc. etc.
This week, my wife and I went to Sam's Club, she's a school teacher and it was her turn to bring "office treats" "she chose "Hot Tamale's so as we went further down the JUMBO candy aisle? I grabbed a huge bag of Tootsie Rolls and said, "These are for THE OFFICE"- and with a wink and a grin I tossed them into our cart too.
The next day, I took the bag of Tootsie Rolls to the office, all 5 lbs of it. Sharon was more than willing to move the Salt Water Taffee over and make room for them in the candy bowl on her desk.
After filling it to overflowing- I took a jar of them over to the Pre-School, met a few of them in the Library - and handed out a tootsie Roll to each one. The rest were having a sharing time- around a circle in their main room.
I came in and asked their teacher, Connie, if I could share some candy with them? "SURE!" said she. I said I had quite a few?and asked how many she wanted the kids to have. "One each, is fine!" So, I started sharing my candy with each tiny open hand. "Children?" said the teacher, "Do you know who this is?"
One sharp 4 year-old piped up- "Yep, he's the Tootsie Roll Man!" The proclamation threw us both off a bit? she then said, "Well, yes, he IS THAT, but he's also the PASTOR of this church!?
Yes, each of us will take on many hats in this game of life. God works that way- it's a God-thing! God comes to us in many different ways so that we might EACH have a clearer understanding of who God is for each of us.
On this Trinity Sunday- it's not just a "Father, but a Mother too, not just a son but a daughter too- not just a Spirit but a presence too"
pulpitt in ND ;?)
