vv. 23b-24: And his disciples came and urged him, saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
I think it was my NT prof at seminary who suggested that Jesus' words in v. 24 might be read in the intonation "of a Jewish mother" with interrogative punctuation: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel???"
Blessings, Eric in KS
Jesus' remark about being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel was a tongue in cheek remark. Our sermon group felt that Jesus was trying to show them in a blunt way their own calousness. One other thing to note is that we are to be fervent in our requests, yet we can not use a crowbar to get God to do something. Jesus' general attitude was one of compassion. He had heard the woman's request and intended to help her from the very beginning. PH in OH
Why does Jesus compare helping this woman to throwing children's food to the dogs in vs. 26? It seems so un-Christlike!
katinPA
was Jesus possibly corrected by the woman?
It is interesting that Jesus should say that nothing that goes into the mouth defiles a person, only what comes out. By telling the woman, "It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." Jesus sounds arrogant. Of course, the translation of this text will be important, but to the average reader Jesus sounds like he just put his foot in his mouth.
A New Pastor From the Jersey Shore...
There is a growing, fairly new congregation (same denomination as mine) that was doing all the contemporary things: style of worship, Saturday concerts, mission statements, etc. The youth group went to visit in a local nursing home, got excited about this becoming a regular ministry of the congregation, and went to the church council to get permission and support. The pastor thanked them for their enthusiasm but made it clear that his congregation didn't do those kinds of things -- it wasn't part of their mission statement.
Jesus stated his mission statement -- I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Yet he also recognized when he needed to go beyond the mission statement. Our churches can't respond to every request, so it is important to have our mission statements, so that we can be as faithful as we can be with the resources and work we are given. Yet we also need to be willing to go beyond the mission statement when we are challenged by great faith!
OLAS
"Do you know the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?" Sounds like a highly functioning gossip network. "Let them alone..." Does this set a little example of not getting entangled via second hand information? Perhaps the disciples themselves felt offended. "Are you also still without understanding?" These teachings of Jesus are running contrary to the authorities of the day.
How are our convictions and beliefs changed? What brings us to 'metanoia'-changing our minds?
If imagined in the context of Matthew's community (struggling as it must have to come to terms with Jews and Gentiles both belonging to God's new and inclusive kingdom), this passage could be viewed as an example. Here the Matthean community is given a model of the disciples struggling with the shift in 'rules, attitudes, enculturation'. And more than that, perhaps we see even Jesus changing his mind about the outsiders and expanding his mission.
I would prefer to hear the Jewish mother tone of voice in Jesus answer as Eric in KS notes. The hitch in that explanation for me is the woman's response. Her words seem (at least in this translation) to be correcting or meant to make room for her inclusion in Jesus' world.
Depending on one's view of Jesus before ascension, is there room to believe Jesus could have his mind and heart changed in response to his experience, to the prayers of the people? Could Jesus be changed? I think so. There are enough passages in the OT which disclose God repenting of plans in response to prayers, negotiating, prophet's actions...
The change of Jesus' mind (heart)& direction of mission comes when this outsider will not be shut up, sent away or shamed out of her total focus, her conviction that Jesus heals. "Lord help me." (echoing Peter's cry on the water) Her response to the image of the dogs & food is not to disagree with Jesus but to expand the meaning...even the tiniest remnant of what you bring to the children of Israel will be sufficient to heal my daughter...after that comes the "great is your faith!" complete with exclamation point!(and in contrast to "you of little faith")
The Gentile Canaanite female looks like the one who was set to be a contrast to Pharisees and disciples, and example of the Isaiah passage of "the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord."
Aslanclan
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Jesus says these words in response to the disciples' urging, "Send her away..."
Maybe the emphasis could be on LOST rather than only on ISRAEL. She is not of the house of Israel, but she does have great faith. She is not lost, maybe her daughter is not lost either. Sometimes healing does not come, even for the faithful.
When the woman comes herself, kneeling before Jesus, she knows Jesus can spare a crumb, she believes he can do anything. His challenge to her may be to teach the disciples something more.
(I always disliked this story, --that Jesus would call the foreign woman a dog was so distasteful... But now it reminds me of our little dog who died last March-- he used to sit under the table, mostly at my daughter's chair, waiting anxiously for something to fall. Sometimes, things fell on purpose. Jesus had great compassion, this crumb fell on purpose!)
Michelle
Two Quick observations:
1. I read somewhere that this passage is one of those "Ah Ha" stories for Jesus. It's as though a light comes on in Christ's head to remind him that he came for the whole world, not just for Israel.
2. If God/Jesus cannot be changed, then why do we pray for things we want, or need? Why do we ask for miracles for those with terminal illnesses? If God is not willing to hear from us, and possibly change His plans, then we all must buy into absolute predistination, thus giving away our free will. Pr.del in Ia is correct in the observation posted. Note also the prophets and judges who reminded God that to thoroughly destroy Israel would ruin God's reputation and name among the people. God would then become a god who simply made and broke promises to a selected/elected people. See Amos 7:2,5.
Steve in NC
PS. Sorry about the previous submission. I hit the wrong key.
Just read a commentary that suggested that the Greek word for "dog" was for a dog that was a house pet, and not the working dog or stray. While that's cold comfort, the commentator (it was on-line and I can't remember who it was, sorry) suggested that she claimed what right she had, to sit at her master's feet and kept after Jesus. It was her claim, however modest it might be, to request a crumb from his table.
I intend to focus on our responses to Jesus. For one thing, I don't think any of us do the Gospel any good trying to guess what Jesus REALLY meant when he made this racist, un-Christlike statement. Sugar-coat it, recast it, whatever, it's exegetical wiggle-room and not included in the account.
The woman's response is perhaps the most appropriate - she's asking for something to go into her mouth - even a mere crumb tossed her way, while at the same time claiming Jesus as Lord. She didn't enter into a philosophical debate with Jesus; she made him hold up his end of the bargain.
So, whether we're eating the bread of life with washed, un-washed, or sanitizer-gelled hands (we use this before serving communion, and this is me rolling my eyes), isn't the idea really to claim our place at his table?
We ARE worthy to gather up the crumbs, she says, because Christ has made it possible. And it's not about eating strictly according to prohibitive Law but about eating with Christ in the first place!
Early ramblings ... good to be back!
Sally in GA
When we're in desperate need, do we care whether Christ washed his hands and fulfilled the law?
Don't we all tend to request God to work and behave according to our specifications?
This reminds me about the dialogue about the morality of political or business leaders. How much is their own business and does not affect us, and how much does? It's hard to say either way.
I do know, however, that when my car breaks down, I want a mechanic to fix it and I don't ask him if he sinned so far that day, which is what the hand-washing thing is really about! How much less would I care if one of my own daughters was sick, whether the doctor had a spiritual life different from mine, so long as she knew how to take care of my daughter and showed her compassion?
Sally again ... still ruminating
I’m not a pastor only a pastor’s wife, I do not believe in pre-destination, I do believe in pre-knowledge. I don’t believe that GOD is so imperfect that He changes his mind, I believe he knows our hearts (sometimes before we know them) He said I knew you when you were in your mother’s womb. Jesus looked down from the cross and died on that cross for me. If this relationship I have with GOD, JESUS, & the HOLY SPIRIT, is not absolute, is not of my choosing because of His nudging, if HE would change his mind that I were not important to be a child of God, where could I put my trust? He doesn’t make you come to Him, He allows you to come to Him, but He knows weather you will or not. I’m no theologian but I love the Lord and I know He is perfect, not changeable. Bobbi
Jesus did not change his mind! Jesus was showing his audience just what they sounded like. These were tounge in cheek remarks. Jesus did not ignore the woman. Jesus' remark about the woman being a dog was simply a repeat of what the crowd was saying. Jesus intended from the beginning to grant this woman's request. Sometimes we need to hear what we sound like in order to change. This story is a teaching. Are we "also without understanding?"
PH in OH
The Phrase in this technological world comes to my mind "Garbage in, Garbage out." Funny to compare food going in and coming out. It doesn't matter who you are, or your standing in life, if you can afford to eat Champagne, Caviar, fillet mion. OR you eat Welfare cheese-it all comes out looking the same- like shit. The Pharrassee's perhaps could afford better nutruition and hygiene? This puts an interesting spin on 'us' moral christians, the wino of today takes in the alcohol but perhaps says his prayers before he lays down in his cardboard box. A the tea totaller walks by the wino ignoring him, nostrils snarled when he offers a smile. (Which one is nore christlike?) What comes out of our mouths, can you believe we eat with them! If we take the worldly Garbage in our minds like rascism, prejudice, media slant, rude behaviors etc into our minds , let them fester and to go our hearts , bitter bile comes out.... You are what you eat comes to mind... I see Preachers coming into pulpit acting like Richard Simmons, LOL. The Health people tell us healthy eating style promote better health, well Spiritual Health too, then... you can corellate that. If we take intolerance, bitterness, prejudice in what has to come out...If we take honesty, tolerance, calm, peace, kindness etc, in...what will come out.... Can't make lemonade without apples you know... We who are techno- can say when we put in stuff in computer- this does not compute! LOL Can have a children's sermon from that, a box fixed like computer with items computing and not computing...lady Pastor in OHIO
Does God change His mind? Good question. Does anyone have any biblical examples of God changing His mind? And what does it mean if He does change His mind? Does it make God imperfect, especially if His own creation gives Him the insight to do so?
It seems to me that changing one's mind shows that God has free will just as human beings do. If we have been made in God's image then changing one's mind shouldn't be a quality unique to human beings. It must be a godly gift!
But how will our congregations take it. Here we find Jesus being corrected by a woman. PH in OH has tried to make the arguement that it is a translation issue that can clear up matters for us. But why not examine the question put before us, "does God change His mind?"
We might say that the whole New Testament is a change of mind. At one point God expected His people to uphold the Law. But seeing that He would be lonely in heaven He found another way. Jesus was the prime example of God changing His mind.
Was Matthew trying to share something with the Hebrew people? Maybe Matthew was trying to show his reader that even God could be corrected, and motivated to change His mind out of love for all people.
This is a tough one, but I hope we preach this one by addresing some of the real questions the text raises. It might be considered better preaching.
A New pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Concerning winning arguments with God, we know of Abraham, Moses and others debating God and it seems that this debate with Jesus is much the same. Jesus was not being racist or unkind. This incident with the Canaanite woman is a teaching moment that is meant to reveal to the 12 that the Gospel is meant for all. Jesus' opening remarks reflected the general thinking of Jews and the 12, the woman's faith in Jesus as Lord gave her the courage to debate with him. She effectively destroyed the common argument and Jesus rewarded her faith.
Deke in TX – Pace e Bene
P.S. Thanks ever so much to the posters who lauded Meg Wheatley's book, I bought it yesterday and am well into it. I do think that the new model of thinking birthed by quantum physics is having decided effect on our world. There certainly has been a breakdown in our old model. Nothing much seems to work. This is a time to expect great growth in humanity. Deke
To answer a new pastor on the Jersey shore, and others,
See Exodus 32, particularly verse 14, for an example of the Lord repenting (changing his mind) as to how to deal with the stiff-necked Israelites.
Michelle
Over many years I have developed a subset of commentary on the texts called, "How to Take Scripture out of Context and Make it Work for You!" The congregation is good natured about it. THe all time favorite is from Psalm 50 "I will take no bull from your house."
As I see this week's textual argument about handwashing & eating, I wonder about a certain lighthearted misuse for the sake of "seeing what Jesus says about washing your hands."
Deke in Tx-so glad to read that you've picked up the Wheatley book and are enjoying it. I'd be interested in what shifts occur in your thinking as a result of her insights.
PH in OH "Are you also still without understanding?" does seem to be a question Jesus could legitimately ask me on regular occasion. I get confused by the everpresent overlay of our culture and life experience which we bring to our reading of the Bible. Our lives are so unlike those of the first century middle east. And also I am mindful of linguistic (translation) issues. (Was it St. Jerome who said the "Translator is a Traitor") I feel pretty clear about the REALLY BIG STUFF...but the meanings of some of the teachings of Jesus and the Gospel Authors I suspect I don't understand; and the application to our life and times--I'd have to confess I still don't feel very confident in my understanding. I am helped by the various points of view expressed in this forum.
Aslanclan
God does not change! We do! God cannot have anything to do with sin, He is a holy God. Therefore, there are times when judgement is pronounced upon people b/c of their sin. And either someone stands in the gap (Moses and the Israelites, Jesus for us on the cross) or the people repent (Jonah and Ninivah (sp?)). God is NOT a God of circumstances. God is a God of FAITH!
Does God always answer our requests/prayers? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes wait. The wait can be for a miriad of reasons...its not time, I am testing your faith in me, there's sin in your life and in order for me to move on your behalf it will have to be dealt with. IF God does not answer us, then we need to ask Him why and to show us why.
I still don't think God changes his mind. John's gospel says, "In the beginning was the Word...", so I think sending Jesus into the world was not a change on God's part. God knew from the beginning we could not perfectly keep the law and so at the right time he sent his Son into the world. Somewhere Paul says something like this. God knows what we are going to do before we do it. I don't think the problem in this scripture is translation, but rather one of our understanding. PH in OH
Why couldn't God change? And why do we equate change with sin? Does change mean that God is less than perfect. Everything in God's creation changes - night into day, rain into sunshine, sadness into joy. Isn't the Psalmist who cried out to God looking for some changes?
I understand that we can misunderstand a text if we fail to do proper exegesis, and perhaps for this one we all should, but what I am wondering is whether or not we should take the translation offered above and try to answer the age old question, "Does God change?"
It seems that one possible translation of Matthew 15 raises the question. Why run from it?
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
PH in OH wrote "God knew from the beginning we could not perfectly keep the law."
"Your statement proposes that God created something for humanity to follow that He knew we could not do. To fail to keep the law is to sin against God. Therefore, God causes humanity to sin by imposing the Law on humanity." I really don't think you mean to say that. You may want to reconsider.
You might re-read what "A New Pastor in NJ" said. "We might say that the whole New Testament is a change of mind. At one point God expected His people to uphold the Law. But seeing that He would be lonely in heaven He found another way. Jesus was the prime example of God changing His mind." I think he has a point.
The evidence in the Old Testament and the whole of the New Testament is about God's ability to change. The static image of God who never changes and who sits separated from humanity is not the image of God who cares enough for his creation to be involved in it. Consider how much faith the Syro-Pheonician woman had to approach Christ and ask him to change in the face of all those around him.
Steve in NC
God is unchanging and it is we who do the changing because of our
encounter with the divine. Our prayers asking God to move towards us is answered
before we pray for God is there.Our prayer causes us to move towards God.
There is more than one level in this incident with the Canaanite
woman. She is urged by Jesus to make her case for his help and in doing so fully
accepts Jesus as Lord. This is something that the disciples haven't grasped at
this time.
1John 1:5a - "But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly
made complete in him."
We think that God changes but we are using the changable,
ourselves, as the benchmark. So as we change we assume that it is God doing the
changing. Hopefully as we become more inline with the will of God this will
become a moot point. I don't think that it is much concern to God, He is pleased
that we move back towards Him. Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
Perhaps it is that God's being God doesn't change; the
identifying qualities of being merciful, just, creative, loving, infinite.
Perhaps it is God's action in relationship with us which is changeable.
One of my parishioners says in a creedal sort of way, "God is in
the God business. God's gonna do what God's gonna do." But as I consider it, I
don't know how this parishioner would answer the question.
The discussion now evokes this question for me-What impact does
our conclusion (about Does God Change?) make in our practice of faith or way of
praying? In daily living, in our reading of Scripture, in our relationships, in
our perception and actions about political and economic systems?
On a different note, Brian Stoffregen's Exegetical Notes at
CrossMarks says that this passage is the only use of the phrase "Great" faith in
Matthew. As a Canaanite woman she would represent historic enmity with the Jews
(the curse of Noah against Canaan; Joshua's conquering the Canaanite lands).
Stoffregen writes, "It wasn't she who approached Jesus talking about how great
her faith was: 'I really believe in you, so you should do this for me'...if she
had any religious training, it wasn't centered on the God of Israel. Perhaps we
can define her great faith as coming to Jesus with nothing to offer him, yet
trusting him to give her what she needed."
Aslanclan
In this wonderful conversation of "Does God Change?", the word
"Change" is problematic for me. Maybe the word "adapt" would be better. To
"change" seems to say doing something completely different. When the wind
changes when I am sailing, I don't quit and do something different, I adapt.
Change sails, or head in a different direction. I'm still sailing. P2
The idea of God being able to change seems extemely problematic
for more than a few people.
Who are we, though, to know the mind of God? And who are we to
decide for God that God can not change. We just don't have the knowledge or
power to prohibit God from change, to be beyond limits as the One who inhabits
eternity professes to be, is to be able to change.
When a man and a woman marry, typically the wife wants the man to
change and the man wants the woman to stay the same, but generally it doesn't
turn out as one plans.
God set limits on himself in the very act of creation. For an all
powerfull all present God, God needed to limit himself just to allow material
bodies to exist and for will to be active. God further limits himself in the
person of Jesus Christ, who though being equal with God,"...emptied himself."
How empty is empty?
For those who argue fore-knowledge versus pre-destination, I
can't see how there could be one without the other. To have a sure and certain
knowledge would have to follow from a sure and certain course or the future as
it becomes the present and turns into history. For the future to be sure and
certain, it would have to be set by someone or something, hence pre-destined.
Fore-knowledge, therefore, could not exist without pre-destination as far as my
mind can see.
God's ability to change, I hope, is open to some extent. Isn't
the system of the Trinity an open system which wants to take of creation as it
can redeem into itself? Therefore, doesn't that openess mean the ability to
change?
a Gentile dog, pr.del in Ia
A professor I had in seminary said the most frightening book of
the bible was Acts 10, because it is the story of God changing God's mind.
Peter, in that story, knows what has been said about unclean food. He is
upholding the covenant passed on to him from centuries of adherence. But the
voice from a vision identified by Peter as "the Lord," told him things had
changed. What had been called unclean was now clean. If Christ's encounter with
a Canaanite woman cchanges his view or extends his mission, it is heartening to
think I may be able to rework my own response to those people whose lives lie
outside my own "mission statement." Taking this back to the earlier text, people
will always get left out when our faith is based on a legalistic code that
decides in advanced who is in and who is out. But, o the blessing when we are
able to think in terms of relationship rather than right conduct. jp from bg
Does God Change?
I wasn't going to respond to the first post about that question
-- seemed a bit off the subject of the Gospel, but then maybe not -- perhaps
Jesus does change his mind in this episode and this then might raise the broader
question. (I don't really think it does since that would fail to take into
account Jesus' full humanity, looking at him solely as God when he is, in fact,
fully human as well as fully divine; perhaps the divine does not change, but he
clearly experienced changeability in his humanity.)
I have no problem with the idea that God changes ... indeed, I
have a problem with the concept of a static and unchanging God! How could I have
a growing, vital, dynamic relationship with such a God? Wouldn't that be about
the same as a relationship with a static and unchanging brick?
The God of the Hebrew Scriptures (although the Scriptures
themselves are contradictory on the matter) seems to change from time to time
with the circumstances God encounters in his relationship with Israel/Judah. God
speaks through the Prophet Jeremiah about the possibility of God's changing his
mind: Jer 26:3 - "It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn
from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend
to bring on them because of their evil doings." And, of course, there is the
changing intention of God in the story of Jonah -- who got so upset with God's
changed mind that he was "mad enough to die" (I like Jonah! I can understand
him!)
Aren't we taught in Moral Theology (Christian Ethics, if you
prefer) that there are certain bits of moral knowledge that we learn from the
created order (so called "natural law") because the Creation in some way mirrors
its Creator? Part of Creation's reality and beauty is that it changes --
seasons, times of day, the growth and maturing of living things -- if this is
part of the intended nature of Creation and if this truly reflects the nature of
its Creator, why should we think that God would be different, static and
unchangeable? In fact, if WE are "created in the likeness of God" and
changeability is a deepseated aspect of our nature, oughtn't we to imagine that
that is part of our "likeness" unto God?
I know there's plenty of "I don't change" ascribed to God in the
Scriptures (just about as much as there is evidence of God's changing, for that
matter). But I wonder if maybe we haven't misunderstood God on that point. There
are somethings about God that won't change -- God is Love; God is Absolute; God
is the Creator; God is to be Trusted Fully; and so forth -- but I believe that
in God's stance toward us, in God's relationship with us, as we mature, God
changes with us. Just as we as parents change in relationship to our children as
they grow, I believe God changes in relationship with us as we mature.
That's my $.02.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Eric,
Well said. It's worth more than $0.02. Thanks a million.
Steve in NC
I'm not heading in the same direction as most of the posters, but
I want to submit a semantical point:
God can change God's mind without changing God's nature. In other
words, God may not change, but he still can decide to do something different
from what he set out to do. And the biblical evidence is there, from another
poster. I'd have used the same example. In fact, some translations say, "And God
repented ..."
It seems as though somewhere in the discourse God changing God's
nature and God changing God's mind became one and the same. They're two separate
concepts.
Sally in GA
Helen Pearson says, "the woman confronted Jesus' narrow
perspective with her persistent faith and extended the Lord's table ..." p. 75
in "Do What You Have the Power to Do."
Throughout time, God has demonstrated a relationship with people,
whether repenting and sparing the Israelites, or by coming to them in love
radical enough to send his own son into the world, it is a relationship. And it
is a relationship in which we have access to God through that gift. Who knows
what can happen when persistent faith is articulated?
Sally in GA
Interesting debate! The Biblical record is a little ambivalent on
the issue. -"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for
he is not a man, that he should change his mind." 1Sam 15:29. Of course this
statement is made by the prophet after God has just changed his mind about Saul
being Israel's king (because of Saul's failure to wait on God's instructions).
-Jer. 4:28 says "I have spoken and purposed and I will not change
my mind," while 26:13 says "The Lord will change his mind about...you."
-Heb 7:21 says "the Lord has sworn and will not change his mind,"
quoting Psalm 110:4.
If we really believe in free will and God's desire for a true
love relationship with us humans, I think we have to consider that God did
perhaps give something up when we were created, as some of the posts had
indicated. True free will demands a responsive, involved God. Programmed love
from a robot is not true love.
Anyway, the text has several possible themes for preaching.
Perhaps in this woman (as in Jacob at Peniel, Gen. 32:24-29), we re-learn that
persistence - even wrestling - with God, does not dishonor God. Like Jacob, she
hung on till Jesus blessed her. Also, we as fellow Gentiles, are reminded that
it is only by the grace of God that we are children of God, included at
Abraham's table. Moreover, God cannot help Godself; he/she is "with us" from
beginning to end. Crumbs fall to all people, even those "under the table" in the
world's eyes - and a crumb of God's grace, like faith the size of a mustard
seed, is enough. Finally, we who believe, like the Pharisees, that a place at
God's table is saved because of who we are, better think again. There are places
at the table only because of who God is.
It is interesting that the only two people in this gospel who
impressed Jesus with their faith were Gentiles, our woman ("great faith") and
the Capernaum Centurion ("in no one in Israel have I found such faith," 8:10).
IN contrast, Jesus' disciples have "little faith" (6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8;
17:20) and his hometown takes offense at him (13:57). The religious leaders
reject him outright.
It is also interesting to note that in this Gospel, aside from
the slow-minded disciples (who finally "get it") and the false bravado of the
Palm Sunday crowd, the only people to recognize and proclaim Jesus as the
Messianic "Son of David" are two sets of blind men (9:27; 20:30,31) and our
Gentile (Canaanite) woman. What a contrast to the scribes and Pharisees, who
when asked whether Jesus could be the "Son of David," blasphemously attribute
his power to Beelzebul (12:24).
Matthew's message, an indictment of established Pharisaic
Judaism, was strong. To be a child of God, one must receive (have faith in) his
son Jesus; and God will have children, one way or another (8:11-12).
As to the "dog" epithet, I still think our modern ears make much
more of the comment than would Matthew's intended hearers (a largely, if not
exclusively, Jewish-Christian community). Still, though, it must be dealt with.
Most persuasively for me, "God has a plan for salvation history" in which
salvation is offered first to the Jews (10:6, 15:24) then broadened to include
all nations after Easter (28:20). While Jesus was a servant of man, he was first
a servant of God; and though he realized that "many will come" to Abraham's
table (8:11), he was sent (by God!) to fulfill God's salvation plan - and he
intended to be faithful to it. Though God would see to the miraculous conversion
of the Gentiles, prior to that time "repentance had to be preached to Israel
while the opportunity for repentence remained. There was great urgency, and the
energy of the messengers must not be dissipated." Jesus was looking for "lost
sheep" of Israel and his "single-minded devotion to his own people was a
manifestation of God's faithfulness to his promises."
Sorry about the length of this post. Last semester I did a
detailed exegesis on verses 21-28. I hope some of it helps. If anyone needs
sources for the passages in quotes, let me know.
All of you are a blessing,
RevKinOK
I do not believe that the New Testament is God changing His mind
about the Old. Jesus and Paul make it quite clear that the revelation of the
Christ is about clarification of the Old and not its replacement. No one under
the Old covenant was saved by the Law. They were saved by their faith (just as
the Cannanite woman is). The Law is a matter of common life and of diagnosis of
our sin condition.
It would seem to me that the point Jesus is making is in regard
to the faith of the woman. The conversation leading up to that point is shocking
and uncomfortable (to us Gentiles)but the "Jewish" disciples would have expected
the first part of Jesus conversation. The teachable moment comes when Jesus
administers grace on top of the Law.
PaxChristi
Sally in GA opined, "It seems as though somewhere in the
discourse God changing God's nature and God changing God's mind became one and
the same. They're two separate concepts."
I wonder. Seems to me that a change in someone's mind frequently
represents, or works, a fundamental change in the person.
Or, are we saying of God what Billy Joel sang:
"Oh, she takes care of herself,
she can wait if she wants;
She's ahead of her time.
Oh, and she never gives out,
and she never gives in;
She just changes her mind."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Have you ever used the approach that Jesus was having a bad day
or an off day and that istead of keeping on that way the woman's faith helped
him to realize that God wanted the best of him. While it isn't a great
theological idea to persue it is a great realization that Jesus had a bad day
now and then but he responded in love even when he was tempted to respond in a
lesser way. Joe
NO God does not change! God's inherent Nature. But, Changing his
mind is something different. Lot's of example of mind changing in the OT and NT.
Jonah went to preach to the Ninevites and they repent, God put off their
destruction. Moses example another. But, King David couldn't change God's mind,
He took His and Bathsheba's first child. What does all mean. On the lighter side
feminists would comply God must be a woman, because it's a female perrogative to
change their mind! HAHA Not so, God is not male or Female but spirit.But, thatis
neither here nor there. All we can do the best we can do for the Lord...Decision
and judgement is reserved for God! God has the last word. So, you all can argue
about this. But God knows how it will all pan out! Pastor mary in Ohio
Jesus said "I am the Alpha and the Omega."
Perhaps the In-between is what is wide open and changing...
Pr.del in Ia
New Pastor from New Jersey Shore, I think that God's mind can be
changed. The biblical references given in response to this question all seem to
speak about God acting in response to human decision which are from time to
time, flawed. I believe that God can and does change God's mind when the
decision will be one which displays more love, more compassion, and more grace
in response to our flawed choices and actions. Just thoughts. Peace.
Mike in SK
jp from bg--Your professor's comment about Peter's dream of the
laws about clean and unclean changing are a good link here. I have always found
the story in Acts 10 stunning. It does partner this discussion because it is
about changing somebody's mind and heart for mission.
The human tendency to first identify "outsiders" and then label
outsiders as "unclean" is part of an ongoing struggle. One of the strongest
qualities I (we) experience in Jesus is his compassion. I think his endless
arguments with the Pharisees are deeply rooted in compassion--hoping their
"clean/unclean" worldview could be opened to the wider embrace God offers. It
does seem like that issue was a huge factor in the early church's mix of
enthusiasm and stumbling.
So, then, the proximity of the clean/unclean story and the
Canaanite woman story had to hold quite a punch for the early hearers of the
gospel. (As it does for us?) Matthew has already included Blessed are the pure
(clean?) in heart...what comes out of the heart is...
In another direction, I'm wondering if the 'chaos vs mechanistic'
worldview has a part to play in our understandings of a changing or unchanging
God?
Thanks for stimulating ideas. Aslanclan
It seems that we really got on to that discussion about God
changing his mind. Excuss my theology of God, but aren't we talking about Jesus?
This is no earth shaking change in direction of JEsus mind either. He really
just seems to be pressing the woman a little further. Howevr, I think that we
Gentiles are slighty offended that we were not the original plan of salvation,
but we were grafted in. Salvation is to the household of Jews, and we were
welcomed in, all of us gentile dogs, to the table. How could our loving JEsus
talk to us that way? Here's vote for God does change his mind, here. Remember
the flood, and God relented and said he would never destroy the world again by
flood. The Peter rise up and eat. In the last days I will pour out my spirit...
there are many examples to show God is dynamic. But the basic nature of God
never changes. And if you are still there, preacher's wife, never say 'Just' We
all do God talk we are all theologians. Gen
NEW DIRECTION!
How about a contrast between Peter, "You of little faith," and
the Canaanite woman, who has great faith? PH in OH
Still searching for profound ideas for the weekend.
I love this mind changing talk, but I'm not sure how well that
will "preach" in 10 or 15 minutes-
As I visited the family of the man who was killed in our parking
lot, I experienced a connection to the text.
Being Irish/German, I was the only white person in this gathering
of African Americans and one of the little ones-perhaps 2 or 3 years old- after
watching me for a while and inching closer to me reached over and with his
finger started to rub my skin.
I don't know if he was trying to rub off my freckles or the white
spots in between. But it dawned on me that maybe he was trying to "clean me up"
and get that stuff off me so I looked like him.
Under the physical appearence we're all the same as far as basic
human needs and emotions. And Jesus and the woman realized that.
Pr.del in Ia
Hi all.
Aslanclan offered something I would like us not to lose:
"The discussion now evokes this question for me-What impact does
our conclusion (about Does God Change?) make in our practice of faith or way of
praying? In daily living, in our reading of Scripture, in our relationships, in
our perception and actions about political and economic systems?"
Indeed! Rubber-hitting-the-road time.
In previous ages, the "unchangeability of God" was used as a
justification for royalty to subjugate serfs, and the papacy to put down the
reformers. In our day, it is used to justify globalization, the cover-up of
sexual abuse, and the setting of standards designed to keep certain people out
of our churches (eg. only married pastors need apply, etc.).
But perhaps these examples are too big or too far away. How about
something simpler like more frequent celebration of Communion (a current
hot-button issue for some of us). The argument against it is invariably, "It
won't be as special!" Here the fear of change in that? If only people realized
that what they are saying is, "God reaches me through the old way, and won't (or
CAN'T!) reach me in any other way!"
I know, I know, this points to a fear of change in ourselves. But
given the above made by some of us, it seems that we are also afraid of a
change in God.
I'm running out of steam for now! More later on how Greek we
are....
Rick in Canada, eh?
One thing that never changes with God - God's love for humanity.
But the contradiction in any relationship is always that love changes
everything. For God to be sincere in God's love for the world, God had no other
choice but make some adjustments.
I think this concept of God having the ability to change can be a
deep topic for a 15 minute sermon, but the important thing for us preachers is
that we study the Scriptures always searching to understand God's true nature.
Perhaps the Good News for the listener this Sunday can be found
in God's new mission. No longer does God have a chosen people, but a chosen
world in which God has so willingly invited 'less-than-perfect' people into a
covenant that begins now and continues for an eternity. This type of God is a
life changing God.
I'm sure the desperate Canaanite woman, who could find no one
else to rid her daughter of the demon, found great joy in Jesus. Through his
willingness to listen, and be corrected, the woman learned that God was not
exclusive, heartless, and discriminate. She learned that God is more flexible
than the Hebrew people who said they knew Him. And it changed her life!
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Who do you turn to in desperation? Wasn't the woman desperate.
Imagine a modern day translation of Matthew 15.
"Just then a dark skinned woman, from the wrong side of the
tracks came out and started shouting, "Someone help me, Pastor Jones, my
daughter is on drugs."
But the pastor did not answer her at all. And his congregation
came and urged him, "What does she want us to do about it? Tell her to go back
to her own church."
The pastor answered, "I was only sent to serve my congregation."
But she started crying even harder, saying "will you please help
me."
The pastor answered, "Do you expect us to spend the money we
saved for new carpet on drug counseling for your daughter?"
She said, "Yes, Pastor, yet even with new carpeting in your
church there would be enough to help my daughter."
Then the Pastor answered, "I'll keep you in my prayers." And the
daughter was lost forever.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Is Jesus pulling a pun here? Isn't there a similar sound between
"Canaanite" and "canine" for dog? Is this true only in Latin, or also in Greek?
Did the pun originate with the Israelites, or w/ Jesus?
Also, didn't God say: "Behold, I am doing a NEW thing. Do you not
yet perceive it?"
PeacePastor+
how ravenously dogs chase down every single crumb that touches
the floor beneath us. How careless we are with the precious food we are given to
taste and chew carefully. Do we take so much for granted that others who have
not yeat hears but sit paatiently waiting for some offering of hope. Some crumb
of grace and healing. When it finally comes they leap at it as though it is the
only crumb they may ever recieve. We may be the only crumb someone ever
receives. Why don't we just set a place for them instead of scrambling for the
crumbs or leftovers? AMPA
how ravenously dogs chase down every single crumb that touches
the floor beneath us. How careless we are with the precious food we are given to
taste and chew carefully. Do we take so much for granted that others who have
not yeat hears but sit paatiently waiting for some offering of hope. Some crumb
of grace and healing. When it finally comes they leap at it as though it is the
only crumb they may ever recieve. We may be the only crumb someone ever
receives. Why don't we just set a place for them instead of scrambling for the
crumbs or leftovers? AMPA
Our Wednesday lectionary discussion group felt we were being led
to a focus on the EXPANSION of Jesus' mission. (Yes, it took an uppity foreign
woman to clarify his mind.)
Both the lesson from Romans (Jews and Gentiles both have a role
in God's outreach to the whole world.) and Isaiah (inclusion of foreigners and
eunuchs)describe other examples of how we need to overcome our labelling of
"outsiders".
The Lutheran pastor in our group said, "You really can't keep off
the 'slipperly slope' of universalism if you get very close to the gospel." The
question we faced but didn't answer was : "How do we inspire our congregations
to think that this is WONDERFUL?" Even we ourselves fall into drawing lines in
the sand and claiming special priority because of our birth, training, efforts,
gifts, ordination, etc. Why do we humans keep falling into the denigration of
others as the way to shore up our own self image? The GOOD news is that God
loves me (anyway). Why do I think that God loving everyone else is BAD news? I
think in this story we, the church, are the disciples. We want those "others" to
be sent away.
Yet Psalm 67 is a celebration of God's love for "ALL the
nations". Maybe I'll invite congregation to recite the Psalm again at the end of
my sermon. Try to live into it.
Sara, in GR,MI
In all of the debate about whether God can change or not, we need
to remember that God's plan has always been to reach out to all people. We
Lutherans are using the Isaiah 56 reading this week. There God says that the
temple is to be a house of prayer for all people.
The Isrealites changed God's plan. I think Jesus is being
sarcastic in reminding the disciples that "dogs" is not God's label but theirs.
Jesus willingly goes to non-Jewish territory, where everyone and everything was
"unclean" but that never bothers him. I see wonderful mission messages in these
lessons (Romans 11, too).
JRW in OH
PeacePastor asked about a possible pun.... unlikely, the words
are quite distinct in the Greek, both in spelling and in pronunciation.
Canaanite is "Chanaanaios" (the "ch" is gutteral as in modern German and the
first "a" is a broad "ah" sound); the word used for dog (litterally a "small
dog" or pet dog) is "kunarion" (the "k" is hard and "u" is an "oo" sound like
"boot"). So it is unlikely that Matthew is reporting a pun -- my research tells
me it doesn't work in Aramaic, either, which Jesus was probably really speaking.
I preached a sermon on this and "uppity women" in 1999. You can
find it at
http://stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/prop15a.htm
In fact, the title of the sermon is "Uppity Women" -- that year
-- this Sunday of Ordinary Time coincided with the Feast of St. Mary the Virgin
-- so we used those propers from the Common of Saints, but I made reference to
the propers from the Common of Time.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Actually, on looking over the sermon -- we did use this Gospel
(the shortened version), but used the Magnificat in place of the Psalm.
Eric in KS
Sara in GR MI, Thanks for you thoughts. I am especially
interested in looking at how Jesus breaks down the artificial walls that divide
and proclaims though his actions that God's love and grace is available to all
who demonstrate faith. Does anyone else have thoughts in this direction?
preachteach
I have enjoyed reading everyone's ideas on the "dog" passage. I
believe that someone mentioned that the word used for "dog" in this passage was
specifically used for pet dogs. As I re-read the story, my own pet dog's
relationship to our family came to mind. There is a lord in our house -- my wife
and I can fill that role. With God's help, of course, she and I provide for all
of the needs of our family. We have 2 children and 1 golden retriever. If the
dog were to come and ask for the food that we had prepared for our children, we
would probably respond similarly to Jesus. "No, this food is for our children,
not for you." However, our dog may need to remind us that, "I, your dog, cannot
provide for myself. I have to rely on you for all that I receive. I know that
your children come first. But you also have a responsibility to provide for me."
Perhaps, the Jews were the primary receivers of the good news so that they could
be care-givers to the rest of the world. We, nor the Jews, can provide salvation
for ourselves...we must rely on the Lord. However, a preaching point may center
on the responsibility of those who have the gift of grace to be care-givers (in
Jesus' name) to the rest of the world. Just a thought. Revross in NC
These contributions draw out so many shadings of this text. Wow!
(The story about Stone Soup comes my mind this morning.)
A vague memory: I think there is a Martin Luther quote about a
dog's devotion at the master's table being an example of how we Christians
should be. Anyone aware of it?
In imagining the text, where is the little girl? I think this
whole thing -her life, her mother's 'hysteria', the male foreigners in the crowd
(Jesus and Disciples)-- would have been quite frightening.
Aslanclan
As I read the text I see Jesus' as using a teaching
technique rather than reflecting a fundemental change of mind. I imagine myself
in the following scenerio - my husband as done something to make me angry and
I'm fuming. I call my mother to complain about him, expect sympathetic utterings.
Instead she starts complaining about the husband - "I never liked him, he's not
a good person, I don't know why you married him." I expect I'd be shocked and
pretty soon I'd start defending him. Mom would be smiling on the other end of
the line, realizing that she had made me see how wonderful my husband was,by
having the words coming out of my own mouth. It wouldn't have worked if she had
defended him, but by agreeing with me, I could see how wrong I was. Is Jesus
doing this? Personally I'm more comfortable with Jesus as the wise teacher than
someone who suddenly realizes that he has been wrong all along with his mission.
Lisa in Central IL
To Revross in NC
My cat thinks he's the lord in our house
Pr.del in IA
I am thinking about the positioning that is taking place, as in
how we all seek to project the image that we think is "right", and how Jesus
responds to each of the positioning of the Pharisees, the Disciples and the
Canaanite woman.
The Pharisees - representing the established church, guardians of
the traditions, and appointed authority of Jewish law. Jesus sends them packing.
The Disciples - chosen by Jesus to be his disciples, but still
struggling to understand his universal love; the Jewish people still occupying
the chosen ground, and wanting to send "her away" for the disturbance she creats.
There are many canaanite women at the doors of our churches whom we send away.
The Canaanite Woman - positioning herself as empty handed asking
only for mercy with full faith that she can receive healing.
In the end we are all the Canaanite woman looking for healing.
Hal in WI
I am thinking about the positioning that is taking place, as in
how we all seek to project the image that we think is "right", and how Jesus
responds to each of the positioning of the Pharisees, the Disciples and the
Canaanite woman.
The Pharisees - representing the established church, guardians of
the traditions, and appointed authority of Jewish law. Jesus sends them packing.
The Disciples - chosen by Jesus to be his disciples, but still
struggling to understand his universal love; the Jewish people still occupying
the chosen ground, and wanting to send "her away" for the disturbance she creats.
There are many canaanite women at the doors of our churches whom we send away.
The Canaanite Woman - positioning herself as empty handed asking
only for mercy with full faith that she can receive healing.
In the end we are all the Canaanite woman looking for healing.
Hal in WI
This is just a "what if", I don't know, but what if "throwing the
children's bread to the dogs" was such a commonly understood aphorism that all
hearers knew what he meant. Example- If I said in response to some statement,
"Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander", I wouldn't expect
anyone to say,"Oh! Did you hear that? He called her a goose!" No, that's not
what I was saying.
Perhaps Jesus was just saying, with a commonly understood
truism,"What you ask for is precious. What is your claim on such a miracle?" To
which, in her "pup under the table" metaphor she is responding,"I know I have no
claim on you. I, like a domesticated pet, merely wait trusting in your grace."
Good answer I'd say!
On the other hand, what if calling her a dog was actually even
worse than it sounds to our ears? He has just said what comes out our mouths
condemns us and here are his 'disciples' saying send her away. Perhaps just as
the words in Jesus' mouth sting us, they were meant to sting the ears of his
company, to teach by example what he had just said. I like to think they all
caught their breath when he said it, thinking,"Well you didn't have to put it so
bluntly." Earlier in Matthew Jesus took issue with those who thought they were
O.K. with God because they had kept the commandment not to kill. He says, in
5:21-24, that to hate, or to insult, or even to call one a fool carries dire
penalties. His advice there is to put off going up to God to sacrifice 'til you
1st reconcile with your 'brother'. Then, teaching by example again, on behalf of
those who have belittled her(though only in their minds, to which he gives
words) he reconciles with her, righting his little company of lost sheep with
God.
A sermon could go either way, maybe both. Good posts, all. It is
good to be back online again after being broke down several weeks. My talented
son came, assessed the problem, replaced the burnt out power supply and got me
booted up again. Good boy! Guess we raised him right. tom in TN(USA)
