Date: 22 Jul 2002
Time: 06:30:37
Wow! This is a great collection of memorable verses. But most often they are quoted seperate from one another. You hear the thing about the Spirit interceding in prayer. And on other occasions you hear that all things work together for good, but rarely in conjunction with the predestination thing. And then at other times you hear the "what can seperate" Q&A. But look at all this together. Is the sum greater than the parts? I have a gut feeling it is. I'm going to wrestle with this passage in prayer a while. Contend with me. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 22 Jul 2002
Time: 10:28:44
Teach me O God, not to torture myself, not to make a martyr out of myself through stiffling reflection, but rather teach me to breathe deeply in faith. (Kierkegaard) alice ,south carolina
Date: 23 Jul 2002
Time: 08:04:22
Lots of material here. I find one thread of non judgement on our part. I chose to preach on this rather than the Gospel, but it seems like the mustard seed of faith could be a good connection. When we have faith in God these become verses of strengh. nancy-WI
Date: 23 Jul 2002
Time: 08:14:05
Tom, My prayers are with you. I would also solicit your prayers as I wrestle with this passage. I will only be focusing on the topic of prayer. It may not touch on the richness of the entire text, but I am a man full of limitations trying to speak of the splended things of God (and all in 20 minutes :-)). May all of us who present the word of God do so in bold competence - Christ Jesus prays for us! Mike, LA.
Date: 23 Jul 2002
Time: 08:33:50
I feel we need to keep this first verse in context. Paul has been writing about the constant conflict within us between following the Will of God and our own will, doing what we want instead of what we know God wants us to do, the tension between the spirit and the flesh, and the already and not yet of salvation and being in Christ yet not fully with Christ. We, I would imagine, as a rule don't really know how to handle all of that being spiritual beings enclosed in fleshly bodies - and therefore fleshly temptations - and aren't really sure how to ask God for help because we don't know where to begin - so Paul assures us that the Spirit knows this - and hears those groanings as prayers of that fervently waiting oxymoron for freedom from the bondage to earthly decay even while still within our bodies. The rest of the passage acts as our "assurance" of God's knowing us well enough that we are weak, that we need and call for his help even when we don't know how it is that God will help us.
Seems to be a good fit for a time when the problems of this world seem suddenly even more overwhelming than they had been - and what had been was bad enough. God Bless; Rev. Rick in So.GA.
Date: 23 Jul 2002
Time: 18:23:52
Tom was a bright, athletic and energenic young man. He was in the Honor Society, played baseball almost like a pro, and was doing well to please his adoptive father who was strict. Not having biological offspring, he wanted to raise his children correctly. One night after Tom had a fight with his girl friend and the relationship looked like it was over, he took out all his frustrations behind the wheel of his car. Fortunately he was stopped by the local sheriff before he hurt himself. But it meant his licence was gone, either by the Motor Vehicle Division or his father. His grades had fallen in the past semester and his ball playing was beginning to suffer. He took the only way out he could see; a rifle to his head! He survived for a few hours in the hospital, then died. I was called to conduct the funeral. I struggled with what to say to this family so stunned by such a tragic death. These words from Romans came to me. I noted that Tom's death was more an act of desperation rather than an act of destruction. The father was inconsolable. This text offered him a Word of hope that NOTHING in all creation can ever separate us (any of us) from the love of God in Christ. It took some time to fully appreciate what Paul had offered for him but it was healing.
There is power in these verses!
A W-G rocky coast Me.
Date: 24 Jul 2002
Time: 06:32:44
Perhaps it is the power in the verses that makes it difficult to expound upon. I am reading about a shrine in Bosnia that has impacted so many pilgrims. Yet the country remains in conflict. The various groups locked in the past... There is a paragraph in the book that talks about why this powerful place fails at keeping peace in the country. The answer given by a nun, essentially says, in order for the shrine to work, the person must give up everything to God, and do his will. We are starting an intercessory prayer ministry in August, and praying for those who do not come to church. I is a very non intrusive ministry, but prayer is a powerful force. I want this weeks service to be preparation for next week which will be a Wesley covenant service. So I guess, it is our will vs. God's will that will be my theme. Nancy-Wi.
Date: 24 Jul 2002
Time: 13:23:59
"Nothing can separate us from the love of God." Last week, I lived through a parable of this truth.
My husband and I led our church's youth mission trip this summer. At the end of the trip, we celebrated by going river rafting. Within a few yards of entering the river, the first Class 4 rapids were upon us. Our guide didn't get us to the correct part of the rapids, and we hit a rock head-on. My husband was catapulted into the rapids ahead of us, and I was thrown off the side. The guide pulled me in within 5 seconds, but by that time my husband was a bus-length in front of us.
As he moved further from our raft, my love for him grew more prominent and more prominent. As I saw him being thrown end-over-end on the rocks, I prayed mightily for him, as 100% of his concentration was focused on trying to figure out how to breath and which way was up.
Nothing could separate my husband for my love from him--and his going through hardship made my love even more vibrant. My husband in that river was unable to spend any part of his consciousness on prayer, but I prayed mightily enough for both of us.
What a powerful illustration of God's presence in the midst of the chaos of our own lives.
-Momma Helen
(note-I was glad to be the one who pulled him out of the rapids. As he lay on me breathing, motionless, and bloody I knew I had everything I needed in the world. He's recovering well with only many surface scrapes and a broken toe)
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 03:10:56
Helen, glad you and your husband are both o.k.! I am having a difficult time deciding what to focus on. My sermon title is Separate or Connected? I was involved in a dedication of a garden for a woman that died on Sept. 11th and we focused on the connectedness that brings us through the darkness of greif and pain. So of course I want to add that but I also want to preach about prayer. I filled in as a chaplain at an area rehab hospital and spent a lunch hour discussing prayer. The general assumption by a few was, why bother...if we are not God's puppets then can we really do any good by praying...i.e. does God's will change if we pray. I said yes we can make a difference by praying but not when we pray for a new car or even when we pray for someone who has died to come back to us. But I do know the power of prayer in my own life and in the life of many. This passage is filled with beauty and power and I want to do it justice. I need the Spirit's intercession here! What are other's doing...focusing on one portion or trying to include the whole? Please pray for discernment. Thanks...JLS in CT
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 07:39:29
A few years after Paul's letter, the Christians in Rome will be led into the colliseum, torn apart in the gladitorial games by wild animals. They will huddle together in the middle of the arena and pray and sing as the animals circle toward them. Looking into the jaws of death they will possess a peace that surpasses all understanding because they know to whom they belong and have long ago left this world anyway.
And as the animals charge, everyone of them will remember the first time they heard these words from Paul and will shout out in defiance..."Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor Caesar, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else you throw at us, not even starving lions will keep God from loving us."
The comfort and the promise still echoes two thousand years later and God's love still hasn't found a worthy foe.
"I am no longer my own, but thine. Put me to what thou wilt, rank me with whom thou wilt. Put me to doing, put me to suffering. Let me be employed by thee or laid aside for Thee, Exalted for Thee, or brought low by thee. Let me be full, let me be empty. Let me have all things, let me have nothing. I freely and heartily yield all things to Thy pleasure and disposal. An now, o glorious and blessed God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Thou art mine, and I am thine. So be it." (Wesley's Covenant Prayer)
John near Pitts.
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 12:01:33
AW.. worked in mental health for many years and have used this passage as a message for hope for suicide survivors. you do feel inconsolable and it is good to have the rock of that promise underfoot.
ks in Pa
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 13:15:57
John from Pitts, helpful to me as a good connection with next week. I too rejoice Helen that your husband was ok. But even if not, you and he and God were not separated. Still mulling, good postings. nancy-WI
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 13:49:49
I, too, having worked in mental health for many years, have used this passage following suicide and other especially grievous situations. It works well for positive, life-affirming services, too. The idea of not knowing how or what to pray yet knowing that God knows our prayers beyond words can also be comforting for anyone who feels overwhelmed and speechless. I think I will use your story, Helen, this Sunday in the patients' worship services, if you don't mind. LaLuz in Texas
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 15:24:22
It's somewhat comforting to realize that even seasoned pastors are searching for how to preach this incredible passage. I've already given my sermon title to the secretary and it's gone to print --- yikes --- at least it keeps me focused!
When words aren't enough --- last night while watching the service for Samantha, this is what struck me when the first sound out of the Sheriff's mouth was a HUGE SIGH which to me expressed his grief, anger, frustration and probably much more than his words could say. To think that the Spirit intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words leaves me speechless. And yet, I'll have to find a way to say something!!!
Blessings to you all as you continue your preparation! The Spirit continues to intercede for us and work in spite of what I say! Steph in CA
Date: 25 Jul 2002
Time: 20:03:38
Great comments, discussion and illustrations on this passage! Thank you all for your willingness to share and provide fresh insight. I did decide to keep to the prayer theme for this Sunday. I have found it interesting that the passage is practically sandwiched between God's intercession for us. Vs. 26 has the Spirit interceding for us and ensuring our prayers are aligned with the Father's will, while vs. 34 has Christ interceding for us, demonstrating God's will for us is assured by the merit of His great love for us. I deal with a great deal of brokeness in my ministry, and the hope that the Spirit intercedes when our shame prohibits us from even daring to speak to God brings light to the most broken of hearts - God really loves us! Mike, LA
Date: 26 Jul 2002
Time: 05:24:41
Nancy in Wi--what is the name of the book you mentioned in your post?
Date: 26 Jul 2002
Time: 17:19:41
I had a call on my answering machine when I got home from work yesterday. It was the pastor of a nearby United Methodist Church asking if I might be able to fill in for her this Sunday (I am a lay speaker). She was having some health problems and was [pardon the expression] desperate for someone to fill in. I found myself accepting without thinking about how I had to travel two hours to a retreat planning meeting on Saturday. Sometimes on short notice, a lay speaker will dust off something from the past but I try to challenge myself to speak on the lectionary text for the week. With short time to prepare in the internet age, I found myself at this site and found inspiration. I am praying that each who is to bring a message is given the discernment needed. May we all feel the Holy Spirit. Amen. Andy Saratoga County, NY
Date: 26 Jul 2002
Time: 17:35:33
Bosnia Hope In the Ashes by David Manuel. I can post the exact quote sat. am if you would like along with the name of the shrine and proper pronunciation. Nancy-WI
Date: 27 Jul 2002
Time: 06:21:17
1981, the image of the Virgin Mary began to appear to three children in the remote village of Medjugorje, in the Yugoslav republic of Bosnia- Hercegovina. This area is held in conflict by centuries of ethinic cleasing and atrocities committed by any one of the three prominent ethnic groups. Hate passed down, yet amid the hate is this shrine has impacted million's of people's lives. Changing them.
The author one day amid the war and destruction ask, "Then how could the war have come here, with Medjugorje happening in Bosnia’s backyard, as it were? How could so many Bosnians, including the Catholic Croats have behaved so reprehensibly toward one another?"
...He ask this question of Sister Janja, an old friend who had been the superior of the convent in Mostar throughout the bombardment. The phone connection was terrible, but her answer was clear; "Medjugorje is a challenge. If it is true, then people must change. They must convert; they have no choice, God must become the most important thing in their lives." I agreed, but what was she getting at? "Think how threatening conversion is. If they have power, they may have to give it up. If they have money, they may have to give it away. If they are carrying hate, they will have to let it go. Whatever happens, their entire lives will be turned upside down and will never be the same." So any one who does not want to change must ignore Medjugorje- even the Croat who think they are religious. "
from Bosnia: Hope in the Ashes by David Manuel
Date: 27 Jul 2002
Time: 08:45:56
Hi all...My prayers are with you and I am VERY thankful for all your insights! Discernment is still elusive however I have begun the writing process which is early for me...I have 4 pages and lots to say. I find my figers are just typing and I am not even realizing how fast this is going. So maybe if I keep praying for discernment this will be a very Spirit Filled sermon. That is my prayer. Thanks for all the inspiration and to the lay reader who is preaching tomorrow...trust in God's will if you said yes that quickly it is meant to be that you are there tomorrow. Trust that God will help with the words that congregation needs to hear. I find that my best method for sermon writing!
Peace to you all and be connected and convinced!
Date: 27 Jul 2002
Time: 08:48:13
Sorry that was JLS in CT on the above... :>)