Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 19:57:30
"...quarreling over opinions." Sounds so familiar. Sigh. Aslanclan
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 14:17:40
"Why can't we all just get along?" comes to mind. At United Seminary we discussed this in Theology...you have creed-Doctrine-Dogma- and opinions! This is a apples and beef scripture... but one can look deeper... Mainline Denominations Oh I dont do word of knowledge, tongues etc...not need that...God don't do that anymore... Some, are go ahead God Pour it on me! Whew! Holy Ghost FIRE! Stop yer arguing and get with the program! SALVATION ATONEMENT MESSAGE! Who cares if you have a contemporary praise service of tradition...Let's work together... Like the Rock tune Let's work together and get the job done! Pastor Mary OH UNITEDFAN!!!
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 21:25:23
What do you mean "sounds so familiar"? What are you trying to say? I certainly don't quarrel over opinions -- that's YOU people! I only point out when you're wrong. If you'd all just realize that your conflicts are petty and listen to me about what's important, you'd understand this scripture.
MDWElpis in Washington State (w/tongue firmly in cheek in case that's not obvious to everyone)
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 23:48:53
I am not a big fan of Paul (gasp); or perhaps more accurately, I am not a big fan of how Paul's writings have been used much of the time. But every now and then I cannot help but appreciate how his observations of human behavior reach across time and culture. This section of Romans has that quality.
Almost all my arguments--OPINIONS--are mostly over the small stuff. I have been known to get hold of some issue, becoming like a growling little dog clenched on a pants leg--arguing out of sheer stubborness or pride or just to vent other frustrations.
But Paul seems to be addressing the desire for conformity! Is it for the sake of order? or is it comfort? With group identity such a strong cultural factor in Ancient Near East, lack of conformity or the lack of clear new rules of belonging may have been terribly disorienting. Is Paul attempting to comfort people who are troubled with diversity in practice of faith?
Sometimes when discussing council concerns, altar guild questions, & other kinds of "concern", I have used the phrase "is this a salvation issue?" Light hearted in tone, it has helped us all keep our perspective... most of the time.
MDWElpis in Washington State: so, are you saying you've experienced quarreling over opinions?? :)
I am always surprised to read the 'whether we live or whether we die we are the Lord's' text in the midst of this passage. Aslanclan
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 10:42:57
How do we go from "If one among you sins, go to him...." to "don't judge"? Is this scripture simply referring to judging the worship traditions of others or the way we individually worship?
The Whisper that came to me in this reading focused on this sentence "Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another?" And yet, I am hesitant to drop it at that, because it sounds as though anyone who serves God is okay. Can someone help me out on this one? Perhaps the Greek wording clarifies.
Pastor Janel in ND
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 14:00:57
To Janel in ND
That do not judge refers to our pre conceptions of domeone. I was in a very nice resteraunt one Sunday after church. Everyone was dressed in their Sunday finest, when this biker family came in. They were dusty and their clothes were worn and I thought how they certainly didn't fit. When the food was brought to their table the Father took off his bandana and they all joined hands and gave thanks for their food. I hadn't noticed any of the other patrons blessing their food. Their children were extremely well behaved. Don't judge by looks. The Bible also says that by their fruit you will know them. If I see someone steal something and confront them I'm not judging their actions judge them.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 11 Sep 2002
Time: 05:46:30
The words for judging in this passage seem to have the same vagueness as in English. In English, we judge which is the best kind of milk to use in a recipe. We just what kind of meat is best for the table, according to price, appearance, and taste. We judge all kinds of things without attaching negative connotations.
We even judge people. We decide whether we should associate with people based on behavior, dress, appearance, language, etc. This is not always a bad thing.
I think Paul is meaning that we are not to judge in the harsher sense of the word, that we condemn others for these adiaphora. Don't condemn them because they eat meat, or because they don't. Don't condemn them because of the clothes they wear, or whether they braid their hair. It's just different. These things are not sin.
Those things which are sin, we should declare as sin, but it is not our responsibility to condemn. Let's keep the conversation going. I want more on this passage.
Michelle
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 00:58:55
Here's my sermon outline:
Theme: The key to Christian unity is tolerance.
1. Christians are tolerant of other Christians who have different practices.
2. Christians are tolerant without giving up their own convictions.
3. Christians are tolerant of other Christians because they share Jesus Christ as Lord.
This week I am a truly desperate preacher with four funerals (and counting)and a wedding. I'm finding it difficult to keep my head above water. I'm afraid I'm dusting off an old sermon and very much appreciating the infusion of your reflections. Stories and illustrations would be very helpful.
A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 08:54:35
Pastor Janel and others, CH Dodd in his commentary on chapter 14, states that if we want to apply this principle Paul is used, we have to bear in mind that he was "dealing exclusively with opinions and prejudices which - though sincerely held, have no rational ground, but are of the nature of taboo.... (in contrast) He would certainly have said that moral principles are objectively valid; some things are wrong whether you think so or not...he would not have urged mutual tolerance and give and take in regard to such matters..." So these things in this section have to do with irrational taboos-- they are truly petty. But what is petty? I might think of apostolic succession as a "petty issue" and throw it in the same category as meat eating. I'm not sure everyone could agree, as the issue sparked near division in the Evangelical Lutheran Church. To me, the message of restraint that comes with this passage is a far more approachable subject than deciding of what to be tolerant. I guess restraint (for the weak and the strong) seems to be a countercultural message in the land of "give me liberty or give me death." Perhaps we need to pay more attention to the feelings of the people in the pew next to us. - AEA
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 10:31:27
A Canadian in Scotland,
Be careful of your use of the word "tolerant." I live in Iowa. We have a text study in which we talked of the toleration. The problem is that "tolerate" can have extremely negative connotations. We "tolerate" the smell of the pigs. We "tolerate" the mosquitos. We "tolerate" bad weather because we have no choice other than to move.
Is that the best we can do with our Christian brothers and sisters, to "tolerate" their differences?
Michelle
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 14:34:31
How about instead of tolerate we celebrate? You like to eat only veggies. Praise God! I don’t like veggies, but I am so happy that you are the kind of Christian that eats only veggies.
Your servant has cooperate worship on Saturday instead of Sunday? Praise God. I am so happy there are Christians who have cooperate worship on another day besides the day I do.
You think abortion is a woman’s right? Hum….. You think any sex other than sex between a married man and a woman is ok? Hum....
BT Ind
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 00:51:31
Michelle;
Thanks for the insightful comment. I use the word tolerate in its broadest sense. . .to allow for the validity of other opinions and positions whilst still holding to my own. Even if we think of tolerance in the negative sense that you have highlighted (ie - putting up with something because we feel duty bound), in many corners of the Christian church this would be progress. Thanks for your thoughts and I will keep them in my mind as I prepare to preach.
A Canandian in Scotland.
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 11:40:04
I took a class on early Christianity and was surprised at how diverse the church was pre constantine. Even in Judaism, there was really Judaisms: Essene, Zealot, Pharisee, Sadducee. In Christianity, there were all kinds of Christianities: Jewish Christians, Judaizers, Gentile Christians, Gnostics of all stripes, Marcionites, etc. I think Paul was casting a broad net here, preaching tolerance of diversity.
Our own situation is not too much different. In our churches, we have liberals and fundies, vegetarians and meat eaters, prolife and prochoice, gay and straight, materialists and those devoted to a simple lifestyle.
Of course we make judgements. We have to make decisions every day about people. But passing judgement is different. Within the household of faith, we should not tear each other apart. I love a good discussion, but quarreling over opinions?--who needs it? It's before the Lord that we stand or fall.
Larry cny
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 15:01:21
BT Ind,
Yes, there are differences we can't celebrate, yet I might dare to say some of those might be ones we struggle merely to tolerate, and some we might not even tolerate.
I was responding to the previous posting where toleration was addressed at last in terms of what we can and should celebrate: Jesus Christ is our Lord! Despite our sin, Jesus Christ is our Lord! Despite our righteousness, Jesus Christ is our Lord!
Michelle
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 06:54:24
I know I'm late with this contribution but I wonder if Paul is talking about convictions rather than opinions. The difference is subtle I know, but there is a difference. Opinions are about personal preference. Convictions are about firmly held beliefs.
Paul seems to be speaking about those whose convictions would not allow them to embrace the liberality of the New Covenant (Do not Judge) and those whose embrace of the New Covenant caused them to look down upon the convictions of the other (Do not Dispise).
Just some last minute thoughts.
PaxChristi in MI
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 10:02:11
Hmmm...my title of the sermon is JUST LEAD THEM TO JESUS... In our witness dont worry about lifestyle ot whatever...lead them to the foot of Jesus' cross. Pastor Mary in OH
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 10:25:01
How I appreciated all your insights this week. My husband's brother died last Sunday morning and it has been a very difficult week. Please keep my husband in your prayers as he is now the only member in his family of origin. Your insights have pulled me through for tomorrow's sermon. Blessings! lp in CO
Date: 11/11/2004
Time: 3:42:55 PM
I am struggle with it!