Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 07:04:08
I am going to use these next three Romans texts as a sermon series entitled "When in Rome..." This one is going to be When in Rome...Live a Happy Life. Sounds a bit hoaky but I am going to claim that living according to the moral imperatives laid out by Paul can bring about a more fulfilled life as the Christian seeks to emulate Christ. The next two will be "...Live a Loving Life." and "...Live an Acountable Life." What are your thoughts. RevIsrael
Date: 26 Aug 2002
Time: 11:51:37
Sounds like it will be an interesting series.
Michelle
Date: 26 Aug 2002
Time: 20:16:02
The first anniversary of 9/11/01 looms. In the U.S. especially there will be a ressurgence of the anger and desire for vengence that filled the days, weeks, months following that fateful day. This would be a good time to bring up this passage of peace. It begins with the directive to hate WHAT, not WHO, is evil, yet maintains the only Christian response to enemies is love and service, overcoming others' evil deeds and the fear thus engendered with our own peace giving deeds of love. Tough bar to clear, but it is the one set by the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who calls us to be perfect (fully mature) in love as our heavenly father is perfect. Might be a time to share and celebrate what kind acts or good deeds have given us moments of peace or hope in the intervening days. So far as it depends on you, live peacably with all, tom in TN(USA)
Date: 27 Aug 2002
Time: 04:10:52
Title: The Look of Love Genuine love (without hypocrisy) is the mark of the Christian community. verses 9-13 - Love within the church. verses 14-21 - Love reaching out into society.
I'm going to start by considering the word 'genuine'. How do I know that you are being genuine? How do I know the the diamond/leather I am buying is genuine? We live in an increasingly cynical society who are looking for genuine love in action - even if they don't always like the shape of God's tough love. Some early thoughts from a Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 27 Aug 2002
Time: 06:41:40
Labor Day weekend.... I was thinking about work, jobs, etc. I love my calling as a pastor. I love to go to work, as do a lot of people. So there is this, "Thank God it's Monday" aspect to work if you love what you're doing. Of coarse, in the church we are also celebrating our call to be Christians, and hopefully we love going to work for Christ. The passage from Romans reminds me of a job description for working for Jesus. It's one thing to have a job description that reads, "Is responsible for administrating the work of the public school and supervising the teaching staff", it's another to embrace a job description that simply reads, "Live a life of love." Paul gives us, in Romans, shape and form to the abstract job description Jesus hands us when he says, "Follow me and love..." My sermon title? "Get to Work." revdlk in nebraska
Date: 27 Aug 2002
Time: 11:32:35
We have had a heated public debate in Chattanooga over the posting of the Ten Commandments in public buildings. Everywhere you turn, there are copies of the decalogue in yards, on walls in businesses, and until recently, in our County buildings. Against that backdrop, I am going to preach about "The Twenty-nine Commandments." These verses have, if I have counted them right, twenty-nine ethical statements. Yet at the heart of these Christian ehtical imperatives, we find the two themes of the law: How we realte to God, and how we relate to each other. -Dale in Chattanooga
Date: 27 Aug 2002
Time: 14:10:14
Genuine Love, Love your Vocation, The 29 Commandments... So much here. Thank you all for your posts. It's like going to an all-you=can-eat buffet, or a smorgasbord. I haven't figured out yet where the texts are taking us in this community, but everyone keep posting, because it's nourishing to the rest of us!
Michelle
Date: 27 Aug 2002
Time: 16:42:36
I am also thinking about a three week series focusing on Romans and Paul's "love lessons." This week: loving your enemy. Which in the aftermath of September 11th and the talk about attacking our enemy is probably timely. So far, I think about love as a decision not a feeling; and it may be a decision to embark on a process. And it is a decision that is made based on an understanding of your place in the world - loved by God who is in control. (vengeance is up to God and not us) And clearly we can't do this thing - loving our enemies - on our own.
I guess one question is: how do middle class "nice" Christian folks relate to the idea of enemies in their day to day life.
Beginning the process ...... Margot
Date: 27 Aug 2002
Time: 20:23:14
OOH, Dale, I like the 29 commandments thang! Up here in Rutherford County we had the same thing. I think our posting of the 10 Commandments lasted about 2 months before coming off the courthouse wall. How great it would be if more of us had these 29 inscribed on our hearts.
Hmm... A strange thing just happened. I was typing fast and clumsy, as is my way, and where I was typing "we had" above, my finger hit between the H and J keys printing both putting "jhad" in my post. I glanced back and made the mental leap. "Jihad?", I puzzled,"Why would I type jihad?" There for a moment I thought it was Freudian or something, thinking about peace with one another but subconciously writing out war. Nah, I just goofed. If I had an old typewriter I would buy "Wite-Out" by the case. But I digress. Keep the good stuff coming folks. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 01:07:50
A comment on the ethical exhortations: People long to have clear definitions of right and wrong. In my background, the commandments were held up as a measuring stick of success or failure, salvation or damnation. In my own spiritual and theological journey, I have come to understand that the ten commandments and these ethical exhortations are not a set of do's and don't whereby we stand or fall. Rather, they are descriptive of the way in which my human relationships are transformed when my life has been touched by the grace of God. Obedience to the 10 commandments or these ethical urgings is not a duty but a response. Obedience flows out of hearts and lives made new by the Spirit.
Let me put it another way: there are people who keep the ten commandments as a set of rules (in a legalistic fashion) but who do not know the love of God that lies behind the commands. If these 'ethical exhorations' are treated as a set of 'commands' people may see them as something to measure up to rather than as a natural, logical outcome of God's mercy demonstrated towards them.
The comments thus far have been very helpful. I trust that mine are comprehensible.
A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 07:24:29
These verses are a group of exhortations that shed light on what Paul said previously. He spoke about being a transformed community of grace in Christ. We have received His mercies and are to respond with not being conformed to the world, but of being living sacrifices for God, being transformed by the renewing of our minds. These verses seem to show images of what that looks like in daily living: from genuine love, service to God, contributing to the needs of others, our responses to our enemies and to evil, etc. These are the things which we are to "do" but they themselves flow from who we "are": God's transformed people. Bob in VA
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 07:24:51
These verses are a group of exhortations that shed light on what Paul said previously. He spoke about being a transformed community of grace in Christ. We have received His mercies and are to respond with not being conformed to the world, but of being living sacrifices for God, being transformed by the renewing of our minds. These verses seem to show images of what that looks like in daily living: from genuine love, service to God, contributing to the needs of others, our responses to our enemies and to evil, etc. These are the things which we are to "do" but they themselves flow from who we "are": God's transformed people. Bob in VA
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 09:35:43
I don't normally preach on the Epistle... although with recent events in our community I may.
There is a pastor in Topeka, Kansas that is supposedly coming to town on Friday to as he calls it "Fago, ND"... he is the same group that protested Matthew Shepards funeral... on his website he has a daily running total of days Matthew Shepard has been in "hell" 1,416 days... also there is the woman mauled by the dogs in California which he also claims is in HELL...
Apparently this "Pastor" supports his ministry by getting in the faces of those that disagree with him until "they" become so frustrated with Mr. Phelps that they end up using physical violence to shut him up and then he sues them.
I have a hard time with this passage and persons like "Rev." Phelps... his website is... http://www.godhatesfags.com He even has the "supposed" voice of Matthew Shepherd from "hell" screaming how we should listen to "Pastor Phelps"... The local Gay/Lesbian population will meet in a local park this Friday... I ask for your prayers...
12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
pulpitt in ND
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 10:33:05
pulpitt in nd- That Phelps hatefilled voice is so loud and so insane. It does provide an extreme example of how offensive is the experience of having an enemy to feed; I guess Paul's "29" remain an irrational concept until our minds have been transformed. I don't feel very transformed when faced with the kind of mindset expressed by Phelps. Aslanclan
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 13:57:53
I will pray for you in Fargo this weekend. I was at the Cathedral in Topeka for 3 years where the Phelps clan is part of daily life.
What a *perfect* example for our Romans reading this week. The best way to deal with Phelps is JUST how Paul said. If you allow yourself to get upset or to try to dialogue or any of that, you end up worse than when you started.
But pray for your enemy. Be hospitable. Feed them and give them something to drink. And do not be overcome!
You couldn't ask for a better sermon example!
God's Peace- Momma Helen
Date: 28 Aug 2002
Time: 15:47:57
I thought of how everyone talks about living up to these ethical standards, yet so few of us succeed. I decided it would be refreshing to state the obivous, "living the Christian Life is Hard Work." Bonhoeffer, et. al., come to mind. Maybe that will help some of the others, too.
Steve in NC
Date: 29 Aug 2002
Time: 03:43:23
Feed your enemies....The United Methodists have an advance special that is working with Church World Service to distribute food, etc. to people in Iraq.
I preached on the just war theory a few Sundays ago when Peter stepped out on the storm-tossed sea. It has stimulated wonderful dialogue in our theologically diverse congregation. I think this is prime time in America for St. Paul to challenge us to love our "enemies". We preachers must not be afraid....There is a really good responsive liturgy on the UM Board of Discipleship worship page web site which names the issues - the response is sung "Lord, I want to be a Christian."... Caroline in MA/USA
Date: 29 Aug 2002
Time: 08:36:38
I found a great story about how Christians in Cedar Rapids responded with love instead of hateful confrontation to a Marilyn Manson concert. It fits right in with feeding your enemies and overcoming evil with good. You can find it at: http://www.renewed.net/awakening/0064.htm Jan in Maine
Date: 29 Aug 2002
Time: 09:30:53
Some time ago, a 12 year old boy asked me this question: "Since Jesus came and said we need peace and not war. Then why did God tell Israel to go to war against other countries?" I told this young man that I would answer his question sometime in a sermon(s). I thought this passage might at least get me started.
I am part of the Mennonite denomination. As you are probably aware, we are opposed to war and participating in war. Paul is clear here on how we should treat our enemies, but what about the Old Testament and the wars?
I realize that many DPSers do not share this conviction of not participating in wars. I do respect your beliefs and opinions. Even though we don't agree on all issues, we are all part of God's Family. The only salvation issue is Jesus and who he is to us. John 3:16
Date: 29 Aug 2002
Time: 09:33:34
The "Mennonite" posting is from--
Tim in Wadsworth OH
Date: 29 Aug 2002
Time: 14:18:16
Thanks for all the prayers and ideas on "facing ones enemies"... good ideas and the support is well appreciated. A friend of mine spoke with the Pastor at the big UMC church in Topeka, their church has it's on support network for just Mr. Phelps group. Interesting fella to say the least, this Mr. Phelps, should you decide to accept an encounter with him... wasn't there a Mr. Phelps of Mission Impossible fame? But I digress... seems now he ain't comin' to town until 11-2-2002 when the NDSU Bison play Colorado in the Fargo dome just down the street from our church.
Thanks again for the prayers, and the dialogue... communion Sunday... yes a better text could not have been written for this time of turmoil.
Thanks again all,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 29 Aug 2002
Time: 21:31:20
Ah, my friends, I have just gotten out of a summer OT series, and expected to preach on cross-bearing, but our newly-formed lectionary group zeroed in on the epistle, and 9/11, and everything I have wanted to preach all year. Thanks for accompanying me.
Mennonite friend Tim: I don't understand those OT war commands either. If you have any insights, let me know. Bishop Peter Storey, a Methodist from South Africa, says "Nothing saddens the Saviour more than his church's incredible compromise with war." He says we may get to a point in our human helplessness where war seems the only way to stop a great evil, but then we have to acknowledge our failure to love, and ask forgiveness, not march under the "God is on our side" banner.
I'm way outnumbered in my church - how can I say "In the name of Jesus, we must stop our country from going to war with Iraq!" without telling them what they can possibly do about it? Letters to the president and congress seem so helpless. There was a NYT editorial this week about our use of oil and how it locks us in to supporting dictators. Can I preach an oil conservation sermon as an illustration of loving?
I guess the basic question in this rant is, how can I be true to the scripture and to my convictions in a way that either will not have everyone's ears snapping shut or having us all sitting there helplessly under the tank treads of the inevitable?
kbc in sc
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 00:59:33
Tim in Ohio. . .I'm not a Mennonite but I am a pacifist because of my persuasion that this is what Christ teaches in the New Testament. The 'just war' theory that was implicitly accepted in my church background was first seriously challenged by Tony Campolo as a sixteen year old at Briercrest Bible College Conference, Saskatchewan, Canada. I was further influenced by UK Mennonite, Alan Kreider. A sound hermeneutical approach to the Old Testament on issues such as war must be approached with great care. A helpful book is Willard M. Swartley's "Slavery, Sabbath, War, and Women." Although the issue of war is very complex indeed, I believe that God's revelation is progressive (I do not wish to imply that God's essential nature changes, rather that his revelation of himself becomes more and more clear throughout the ages). The holy wars that we find in the OT have been made redundant by the revelation of Jesus and his call to the way of peace. It is interesting that those who find justification for war in the OT would see the OT practice of slavery, polygamy, Sabbath keeping, and patriarchal schemes in society as being anathema to the NT teaching.
Having said all of this, we need to take care not to preach the above text as a 'position paper' on war and peace. This text describes the love relationships within the church community and their love in action in society.
Some thoughts from a Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 11:55:09
anyone interested in a simple idea for children, with romans 12. 9 - 21 in mind. I plan to engage young children just starting back to school in a game of 'Simon says' - well St Paul says! We will imagine going back to school with new children arriving etc - and stand up or sit down when the command from Paul helps others through their day - and take note of those times when our selfish actions are hurtful to others and to the bringing in of God's kingdom.
Each child will be given a special pencil to put in their pencil case to remind them of their own resposibility to follow the 29 commandments.
Now all I have to do is write a sermon for the other church!
Katie in England
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 12:11:35
For kbc in sc, I have a scrap of paper taped to my computer with a quote scrawled on it. I found it somewhere on the internet, and have no idea where (could have been here some week). Maybe it will help. "If you are a coward by nature, don't worry! You don't need to be courageous to be a preacher! All you have to do is get down behind the text. You can say 'This is not necessarily me saying this - but I do think the text is saying this.' Hunker down behind the text." kte in gb
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 12:59:10
I have so appreciated everyones comments. Thank you, everyone!
I know it's late for this kind of request. I am looking for stories of regular people overcoming evil with love, from the past and current times.
Jan in Maine: I accessed the renewed.net site but couldn't find the story about the Marilyn Manson concert. Any suggestions? JBinID
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 17:06:28
Sorry the web link about Marilyn Manson didn't work. I couldn't find it again, but http://www.gospelcom.net/npc/manson.html had just about the same information. Jan in Maine
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 18:32:55
Many of you have focused on living the Christian life and it being hard work, Amen! to that. This is an excellent passage in giving us some rule of Christian behavior. The one thing I'm not hearing, though, is how miserable we fail! As a good Cavinist, I find that in the end I am convicted. It is only through faith in Jesus Christ that I am reclaimed and through the power of his Spirit I am able to live the Christian life. Reverend KJ in NJ PS. This Reverend Phelps is an intriguing fellow :)
Date: 30 Aug 2002
Time: 21:45:37
kte in gb: thanks for the quote. I guess courage or cowardice isn't the issue when Christ has promised to be in the event of proclaiming and hearing the word. And thanks, Canadian in Scotland, for the reminder about the context, and Katie for the Simon says idea for the children. Actually, so many good ideas on this site. kbc in sc
Date: 31 Aug 2002
Time: 02:30:53
Thank you to a Canadian in Scotland and to kbc in sc for your comments concerning my question.
Tim in Wadsworth OH
Date: 31 Aug 2002
Time: 05:31:18
My friend from ND (Pulpitt) refered to "There is a pastor in Topeka, Kansas...."
As a resident of KS who has had to deal personall with Mr. Phelps (he has picketed our Cathedral in Topeka, another major parish there, and my neighbor the reformed temple here amongst other places), need to make clear that Mr. Phelps has no ministerial credential even though he does claim to be pastor of something called "Westboro Baptist Church" (a congregation made up almost entirely of his extended family). Phelps has been "disowned" (if they ever "owned" him) by every major and minoe legitimate Baptist convention. (By the way, he is verifiably a disbarred attorney.)
He should not be referred to as "Rev. Phelps" by anyone, especially not by those of us who legitimately carry that honorific -- when we refer to him that way we give him, however unintentionally, a certain legitimacy. His brand of hatred and evil needs to be combatted by every means at hand, including refusing to legimize it in any way. Please, call him "Mr. Phelps", not "Rev." and certainly not a "pastor."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 31 Aug 2002
Time: 10:57:47
Could this Mr. Phelps be called an accuser, an adversary, a "satan" according to the gospel lesson--a stumbling block to those who would otherwise follow the "right pathways" of Jesus Christ?
Or does that legitimize his actions?
Michelle
Date: 31 Aug 2002
Time: 12:47:17
Michelle:
As I view and deal with Mr. Phelps, the answers to your questions are:
Yes.
No.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 31 Aug 2002
Time: 14:30:21
I just wonder if any of you have ever thought of this as somthing other than an ethical or social issue. the point of Romans 12:9-21 is who we are in Christ and a whole way of life. It is not law it is the power of Christ to transform each of us who belive from the inside out. It is only when we are transformed by the indwelling power of Christ that we can truly reach others with the power of the good news of Christ.
Living new in Him
Date: 28 Sep 2004
Time: 02:59:18
nice passage