Date: 13 Aug 2002
Time: 15:47:23
I cannot believe that it is Tuesday and no one has logged on with a comment. Has all the dpsers gone on vacation?
Ks in PA
Date: 15 Aug 2002
Time: 13:04:17
Ks in PA,
Could it be that you are a week ahead of yourself if you are following the lectionary. I am on vacation August 18, but I am looking ahead to the next Sunday I will be preaching. How about "Renewed Minds That Transforms Souls?" I am just starting to organize my thoughts. The sermon posted in DPS has some good thoughts. I am thinking about incorporating the two paragraphs beginning "I really believe that we are unigue and important..." and "But how do we know we are making a unique contribution to life..." I also like the Gretchen Streuli illustration.
Date: 16 Aug 2002
Time: 17:45:39
Actually, I *will* be preaching Romans 12 and Matthew 16 this weekend. I'll be using the P+16 lections a week early, since we have a special day to recognize public school teachers *next* Sunday during our worship.
(Although, the most intriguing text, "be transformed by the renewing of your minds", would fit either theme.)
I really am looking at the "be transformed" as the focus.... Transformation is GOD'S doing, not ours, but the impact on us is incredible (and scary!).
Tom Bandy (www.easumbandy.com) uses Jacob's story in Genesis 25 to remind us that transformation requires Jacob (and us) to venture forth, in a way that hurts: "9Vision) always comes in apocalyptic power to burn your lips, dislocate your hip, change your name, send you into the desert, or force you to reconcile with enemies." [Bandy, Vision Discernment, 2000, page 5].
Pastor Greg HG, NC
Date: 16 Aug 2002
Time: 17:51:11
Actually, I *will* be preaching Romans 12 and Matthew 16 this weekend. I'll be using the P+16 lections a week early, since we have a special day to recognize public school teachers *next* Sunday during our worship.
(Although, the most intriguing text, "be transformed by the renewing of your minds", would fit either theme.)
I really am looking at the "be transformed" as the focus.... Transformation is GOD'S doing, not ours, but the impact on us is incredible (and scary!).
Tom Bandy (www.easumbandy.com) uses Jacob's story in Genesis 25 to remind us that transformation requires Jacob (and us) to venture forth, in a way that hurts: "9Vision) always comes in apocalyptic power to burn your lips, dislocate your hip, change your name, send you into the desert, or force you to reconcile with enemies." [Bandy, Vision Discernment, 2000, page 5].
Date: 16 Aug 2002
Time: 17:57:06
(Don't forget to click on "previous discussion" immediately unde the Contributions headline.
It's an archive of DPS chat regarding these scriptures three years ago, when these were the lections for this Sunday.)
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 09:07:05
Hi all, I realized last week that I was indeed on the wrong week. This is what happens when you are in the midst of moving and packing and still trying to write sermons and visit hospitals and put out fires. Sometimes I need someone to tell me where I am and what day it is.
ks in pa soon to be ks in maine
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 09:45:27
v. 3 - the measure of faith that God ASSIGNS?
We're doing an informal worship service month and this is the last week. I've entitled it "be still and know ..." and I think this text speaks well to it. "Spiritual Worship," according to the link on the first page is labeled as "Quaker or Brethren." I know a little about Quaker worship, but couldn't find a link to "Brethren." I'm guessing it's Church of the Brethren.
Any ideas?
What is spiritual worship, anyhow? Paul says it's presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. My thoughts on this has always been a sort of "giving over" to God, and acknowledging that God is in charge, not us.
I'd do well to remember that, sometimes.
First thoughts from Sally in GA
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 11:30:44
Sally in GA:
I cannot address your question directly, but coincidentally, I'm guest preaching this week, to a congregation with Quaker roots. This group has long-ago listed its core values as "simplicity, sincerity, and service." In recent decades, they've dropped the fourth value that was begun by the original Quakers: "silence."
I'm only beginning to structure my sermon, but I think I'll point out that their core values are quite countercultural. For example, all I have to do is to walk into my teenager's bedroom and I completely foget "simplicity" and "silence"!
Being transformed takes us back to those four S's, in a world in which we see their opposites much more often. And, that transformation helps us to discern God's will. In the end, I'll point out that the "gifts" that Paul mentions are all other-directed, and not self-centered.
I hope this gives you some hints. MTSOfan
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 18:48:32
Sally in GA highlighted "giving over" to God, acknowledging God is in charge. I immediately tied that to Exodus and a mother "giving over" her newborn child to God's care.
katinPA
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 20:08:48
I am intrigued by "Do not be conformed to this world."
It seems that much of the church today is conforming to the world. Worship is replaced by glitz and entertainment. Some acts of sin are no longer sin, but alternative lifestyles. Power structures within the church are becoming more important than mission.
What is good and acceptable and perfect? May God be the one to guide our discernment.
Michelle
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 04:03:59
It disturbs me that there appear to be so many contributions on this passage in Romans when so few wrestled with last week's text from Romans 11. My concern arises out of the 'Therefore' in 12:1. If we have not laid the foundation of understanding Paul's argument up to this point, we risk misunderstanding what he is saying here. The thrust of Romans 9-11 is to show that all have been imprisoned in disobedience (the chosen are set aside, though not forever, and the not-chosen become recipients of grace). God chooses to be merciful to all. His mercy does not depend on us. His mercy cannot be earned, merited, or deserved. The mystery of God's merciful salvation plan is summed up in the hymn of 11:33-36.
THEREFORE, on the basis of God's mercies demonstrated to Jew and Gentile alike, we are called to be MERCY'S BUTTERFLIES. God's mercy metamorphises us into new creations, called to 1. A new way of worship a)Living sacrifices b)Offering spiritual worship (as opposed to cultic ritual). 2. A new way of thinking (transformed not conformed) 3. A new way of community a)A healthy esteem of self and others (I'm OK, you're OK) b)One in unity. One in diversity. c)Gifted for the sake of others.
This butterfly community does not demand the 'McDonaldisation' of our spirituality. Conforming to the world in our church life can produce the brand of ecumenism that demands institutional uniformity and thus opposes God's butterfly plan of salvation. God created us to be one yet diverse.
Thanks for all contributions so far.
A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 08:18:28
A Canadian in Scotland,
Were you responding to my post about conformity? Did you read in my post that all new forms of worship are bad, and that cultic ritual is the only way of true worship?
I did not mean to say that. What disturbs me is the tendency of some "worship" leaders to do it all. For example, songs are sung from the front with words only on a screen, and musicians in the congregation can't sing because they have no notes. Unless they've heard the song again and again, they can't participate. (Non-musicians can sometimes catch the tune more quickly.)
Also, your comment, "I'm Okay, You're Okay," begins a slippery slope that worries me. I am not okay. I am a sinner. I stand only because God's forgiveness lifts me up. To redefine my sinful behavior as good does not make that behavior Godly, it merely gives me a false relief of my culpability, and tells me I don't need the forgiveness of God, when I do.
I agree we need a healthy respect of self and others, but I believe that respect should be based on the fact that we (sinners) and others (also sinners) are loved by God, and gifted with God's forgiveness, rather than on the false assumption that anything goes.
I like your final phrase, "Gifted for the sake of others." I affirm that.
Michelle
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 10:28:06
Regarding Sally in GA/s thoughts about (all of us) needing to remember that we are not in charge: Here's something I can't really use myself without fear of shaming my son in worship, but any of you could use this incident as an illustration if you wish:
My 3-yr-old son had been constantly trying to direct and even discipline the little 1-yr-old I was babysitting for a friend. Finally, I told my son, "I'm in charge of Zachary. YOU are not in charge." To which he replied, as only a 3-yr-old (well, and maybe an adolescent too) can, "I AM in charge!" He ended up in his time-out chair for 3 minutes!
I wonder how often God would like to put some of US in "time out"! Maybe it would straighten out our noses (as my dad would say) and our perspectives a bit. (After time-out, my son finally acknowledged that Mom and Dad are indeed the ones in charge!)
Hope this helps someone. Heidi in ND
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 10:59:48
Time out! That's the point of worship! Take time out - while our lives should be lives of worship, the hour or so we set aside once, twice, or three times a week is set apart and held sacred. In fact, if I may, I'm going to call it "Time Out!" Interesting, because the new preacher next door is a former pro footbal coach and I am NOT a sports fan.
Thank you all for your contributions. I'm assimilating just about everybody's in my thought processes plus some exegetical work I did from the Interpreter's Dictionary and others.
I was hung up on God ASSIGNING faith. Assigning, as in attributing to ... and faith, for Paul, would have been a moral response to God's salvific work through Jesus.
But, we need to, as I've learned of Quakers, look for the inner light - I think it's in there that we find our spiritual gifts. But it is not to focus inward for ourselves and our own moral attainment - it's about finding our gifts to use along with the gifts of our brothers and sisters for the Lord's work.
The passage is actually much more Wesleyan than I'd originally thought. I'd begun to think Calvin with that word "assigned," as if faith were pre-apportioned.
Sally in GA
And as to jumping into this passage without looking much into the previous passages. "Mea Culpa!"
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 12:40:46
I'm going to tie the Exodus reading and this one together because I see the Egyptian women as being non-conformists who truly did discern the will of God. I also believe that theirs is a good example of the BODY of Christ having many parts which all work together.
Heidi -- I love the time out story! I'm going to try to work that in. Perhaps it could be used with the Egyptian rulers as an example of those who THOUGHT they were in charge!
Janel in ND
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 13:11:20
Sally in GA and Janet in ND (and others):
One more thought regarding "time out." I thought of this as I read Sally's comments about worship being a time out for us (excellent! thank you!): A very important part of time-outs in our household is that toys are removed from little boy's hands for that period, if a TV show was on it is shut off, and we often tell him, "This is a time for you to sit and THINK about..... (who's in charge, or whatever)." Worship, too, needs to be a time when we set all other "toys" aside: all the "toys" of our lives--material things, money, strategies to gain success in the worldly sense, etc.
Now you gals have me so excited about this little line of thought that I may even try to find a subtle, gentle way of using it without using Logan's name directly or in any way embarrassing him. Most parents nowadays can relate to the time-out form of discipline, so I'm sure I can speak of it in somewhat generic terms.
Peace! Heidi in ND
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 13:18:44
I read recently that "bodies" in v. 1 is more accurately translated "selves" instaed of indicating PHYSICAL bodies. We are to present out SELVES as LIVING sacrifices (because sacrifices of dead animals are no longer what God desires).
I think this ties in to the Gospel lesson too in that, although Peter was foundational in the establishment of the Church, he was not to be thought of as higher than other people (since there is only one Father and Teacher). Instead, he--and every leader--was/is to be a servant, following the example of Christ---offering ourselves to others, being living sacrifices, sacrificing our very lives for the sake of service to others, according to our gifts.
Heidi in ND
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 01:14:56
Dear Michelle;
My post was not a response to your comments. I had simply finished working through my outline and thought I would share it on the site. I will attempt to clarify my thinking in the light of your posting.
My point about 'new worship' was not in the context of traditional/modern styles of liturgy. The 'new worship' is a contrast between the 'old' cultic worship which involved animal sacrifices with the new 'living sacrifice' (us) and the spiritual worship we offer of our whole lives.
Regarding the assertion 'I'm OK, you're OK,' you are absolutely correct. In our 'disobedience' and 'sin' we are not OK before God. But as objects of his mercy, we are truly OK. This is why I think that the careful argumentation in Romans 9-11 is foundational for this passage. Standing in God's grace, I am a new creation. As an object of his mercy, I have a 'sober judgement' of who I am in relation to others. By the mercy of God I am OK. By the mercy of God, you are OK. Because of this fact, I do not have to set myself in superiority to another in the church fellowship. God has given me gifts - not for me to gloat over - but for me to use for the sake of others. God has given you gifts - not to cause me to feel inferior - but to build me up in my faith.
Almost a year ago now, I went through a crisis. I was heading for a nervous breakdown. By God's mercy, he gave me the strength to seek help. Though I had been brought up to know that I am loved by God and accepted by grace alone, I never truly accepted that status in my heart. I was driven by perfectionism (bourne out of my Wesleyan/Holiness Movement roots), hounded by guilt, destroyed by anger I could not express, and haunted by the belief that I wasn't OK - I wasn't good enough. Through this dark valley in my life, I discovered grace - not only in my head but in my heart - not just as a concept but as a living reality. For the first time I could say, "I'm OK. You're OK. God loves me and God loves you - not because I'm good enough - but because he has chosen to love me." What liberation! What freedom! Finally, I am able to be all that God's wants me to be. I have ceased by striving and called a truce to the warrings within.
Thanks for the challenge. It has helped me to clarify my own thoughts for my sermon.
A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 05:38:48
I find it telling that Paul- moving into this exhortation to the Romans beginning with chapter 12 about how to live as a Christian -speaks about community immediately.He says first to present your bodies in spiritual worship (another translation, "reasonable" worship) and then talks about being in the one body which has no traditional hierarchy. Paul doesn't write about going in search of an "inner light" to feel set free as an individual - no, he speaks of how the understanding of transformation works in a community.It is as though worshipping in a group is a given. This follows the pattern in the gospel where Peter's understanding becomes the foundation of the church. But many Americans talk of being renewed in the mind without any feeling of responsibility to a community. -AEA
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 07:05:01
A Canadian in Scotland,
Thanks for the clarification. I wholeheartedly affirm your explanation, and can read your earlier posting with greater understanding.
Michelle
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 08:11:24
My initial thought was the idea of sacrifice, so unexperienced in today's culture. What does sacrifice mean to people today? What is important to someone is where he/she spends time and energy on. Utilizing gifts, given by God, to the fullest for the benifit of the community of faith is a very Pauline concept from all of his letters. Build up that Body! Makes me think of all the work bodybuilders put into strengthening their bodies and sculpturing their forms. (I really miss spell check in this program!)
I frequently read the discussions, rarely contribute! Thank all of you so much for so many thougths that have helped in MANY sermon presentations!
Random thoughts from MW in West AR (USA)
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 08:28:12
Dear Canadian in Scotland,
Your account of your near-nervous breakdown due to perfectionism and then realizing that "you're OK" reminds me of Martin Luther's struggles as a young monk and priest: riddled with guilt, striving for perfection, not understanding how he could possibly be acceptable to God, and then finally reading in Romans (ch. 3, I believe) that we are justified by faith as a free GIFT of God, apart from works! I know "The Story of Christianity" vol. 2 by Justo L. Gonzalez has a good, very readable account of Luther's experience, if you're interested in using this as another, parallel illustration.
Heidi in ND
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 08:39:23
A Canadian, glad Michelle asked - thanks for sharing! I watched the movie "Chocolat" last night and it keeps zooming in my mind as I think about being "living sacrifices" and being transformed. In it, the people were expected to sacrifice but became empty, hard-hearted, cold people. The chocolatier sacrificed in a totally different way which let her be open to others. It truly shows the way the church can be abused to control others.
still so much to contemplate. blessings, rachel
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 11:40:54
MTSOfan-Thanks to your response to Sally about the Quakers and the four S's of the congregation. I've been struggling with my strong reactions & probable over-reactions to a program being introduced in our congregation. And to the rest of the contributors up to this point, Thank you; the dialogue process of stating X, misunderstanding X, restating X + adding YZ, yielded deeper understandings both of text and each other as human beings. It helped to glimpse the human process of being transformed by the renewing of your minds.
From a way distant angle of vision, a quote from Gregory Bateson talking about the word MIND. "Any entity that has capacities for generating and absorbing information, for feedback, for self-regulation, possesses mind." This concept led Margaret Wheatley (Leadership and the New Science) to reflect on organizational intelligence as being a "system-wide capacity directly related to how open the organization is to new and disconfirming information..." (p.99) hmmm
AEA, about the "reasonable" or "spiritual" worship translation choice. Those two words haven't seemed synonymous in my mind. Can you say more about the different possibilities?
And about "discerning what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect"...could the word 'perfect' be translated differently now? Could it be related to being whole, complete, or does it mean flawless? Aslanclan
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 11:47:41
Our utter dependence is upon God and God's grace. It's not that God needs the ego trip of having his subjects fall down before him, but that WE need "time out" to acknowledge it, and restore a right relationship. That is the spiritual worship, and it doesn't do any of us any good to have an emotional experience and then stop growing, or to have a similar emotional experience every time we worship and that's all there is to our discipleship. Spiritual worship is so much more! And neither does it do us much good to keep everything so proper folks are afraid of doing anything for fear of offending another's sensibilities (which is more our church's sin).
All should work for the common good - the Body.
As to how to work in a child's example, I once said, "A certain 8-year-old theologian recently said ..." and it went over my 8-year-old's head and everyone else enjoyed it as a cute kid story. Kids often have a more profound understanding than supposedly mature adults.
Sally in GA
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 15:10:35
Aslanclan- I simply noticed that alternate translation in the NRSV. However, I think Canadian had it right: old "cultic" worship which had to do with dead animals vs. new worship as "living" sacrifices, involving offering our lives. The old is now outmoded. We worship as thinking human beings, able to make out what the will of God is. As CH DOdd said, we are able to have fresh and independent insights into moral realities...Its not about obedience to a code. -AEA
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 01:05:37
Regarding the 'reasonable'/'spiritual' worship, the Revised English Bible captures both senses of the word in its translation: ". . .the worship offered by mind and heart." The Greek word 'logikos' is behind our English word for logical. It encompasses the two complimentary ideas that first, obedience is the only logical response to the grace/mercy of God and second, that ours is a worship of the heart not of cultic ritual and sacred place (the worship in spirit and truth that Jesus talked about in John 4). The ever-present pitfall is obedience as duty and striving after God's mercy instead of obedience as a natural response to grace. The constant danger is that our freedom in worship is stiffled by holding to a particular form of liturgy and an unhealthily attachment to our place of worship (ie - love of church building). This is such a rich passage. Once again, thanks to all who have helped me in the mining process.
A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 07:49:08
A Canadian in Scotland-Yes, that translation is a much more "logical!" and inclusive meaning. The phrase more than implies that in worship planning "either/or" is not sufficient. That is, to seek only to evoke feeling in worship or to make a straight line toward intellect & right teaching is not the guidance given here. Integrating thought and feeling in worship and in living out the faith (Body?), these are essentials for the whole people of God. Aslanclan
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 12:48:18
I really like what the New Interpreter?s Bible says: worship and obedience really do ?please God.? This gets into one of those tricky balancing acts?God?s grace is always freely given and undeserved, but ?those who are justified in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit can, should, and regularly do ?please God.?? In other words, ?God is delighted with them not merely because they appear ?in Christ? but because of what they are, and are becoming, and are beginning to do.? I, too, am touched by the example of your little boy, Heidi, and his need for a time-out now and then. Your love for him is freely unconditional, but aren?t you really pleased when you see him becoming the loving person God created him to be? If we can understand this feeling in a parent, can we also better understand it in God? Thanks for the combined inspiration you folks always offer me. Please forgive the laziness and hurriedness that keeps me from contributing more often. Rebecca in MD
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 12:50:25
Sorry about the 'question marks'! Those should be quotation marks! Don't know why this happens, but it sure makes reading tricky! Rebecca in MD
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 22:09:09
Heidi in ND.
As I read your story about your "disciplining" your child, putting him/her into time out for "wanting to be in charge" of the 1-year old, I found it both ironic and disturbing.
You engaged in the very behavior you were trying to discourage, that is, the one who is "bigger" is "in charge," & it is important for someone to be "in charge" in such a way that means controlling behavior, either through the means used by your child, or by your own means, that is, putting your child in "time out."
How about a different kind-of approach altogether? What does it mean to be "in charge" of another person? How are you "in charge" of your children? Doesn't that mean primarily caring for that child, showing love to that child, making sure that her needs & wants are met, including teaching good behaviors such as showing love & care for another. Certainly your 3-year old is old and wise enough to engage in a thoughtful talk about what it means to "care for" someone else as opposed to being "in charge of" that person. How could s/he show love to the other child, as you show love for him?
At the end of your encounter, your child has learned the "important lesson" that "mommy is in charge." an opportunity has been missed to teach the even more important lesson that finally God is in charge, & calls us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, no matter what our ages. and your child can understand and do that WELL, given the opportunity and impetus. it just takes the energy and thoughtfulness on our part to realize how to deal with the situation.
It disturbs me, the incredible positive response to the situation, which seems to me... shallower than it could have been, a missed opportunity...
Blessings, and peace,
pastordeb in the 'burgh
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 00:02:23
pastordeb in the 'burgh
I disagree with your assessment. I totally support Heidi in her actions. A three-year-old often does need consequences such as a time-out. Children are not identical, and though some may respond to talking and reasoning the way you explain, others may not. I would rather Heidi add to what she already does, in much the same way she wishes to use it in the sermon. She may explain, "One way that God works in this world is by giving me the responsibility to care for you and (the one-year-old), not you. You have other responsibilities, and one day may have responsibilities like I do. But for now, you sit and think about what I've shared with you."
Michelle
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 05:10:05
about spiritual worship -- my reading has me thinking of this in contrast to the mystery cults and religions who got "spiritual" by frenetic dancing and slaying of animals and/or personal gashing (depending upon the cult). Our worship of God does not involve wroking people up into a frenzy (although I recognize that this is done in places.) but is a part of our every day living, being transformed wholly into God's people, recognizing that God is with us verywhere. We can't leave God behind in Memphis or Athens or wherever; God is with us. And so all of our life must center around God.
thanks and grace and joy and don't we do out best as parents just as we do as preachers and wonder at times "what is best?"
rachel
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 07:29:57
All this talk of various forms of cultic worship are hitting close to home, literally. I had a walk with a woman who's been worshiping with us off and on lately. She and her family are former members of a church next door to us that she defined as "a cult." I think they've lightened up considerably with a new pastor, but even still they're VERY authoritarian. People (including this woman) literally uprooted their lives and moved here from up in New England someplace. While the church is surrounded by rumor, their control over the members' lives is incredible, and it was difficult for them to leave. She, her husband and sons have soured to religion altogether, but God is beginning to call her back into a community.
And, for the topic of worship in general:
Worship has nothing to do with "style;" that's simply a matter of taste. And if I may be judgemental for a minute, I do believe the worship that is designed to primarily evoke feelings and emotions will leave people cold after a time, as will worship that's designed to stimulate intellectual curiosity, which, in my opinion, is simply another form of "feel good" worship. There must be a place for discipleship and struggle, not just "feel good." I praise God for what he's delivered me from, but that in no way "keeps me singing as I go," to quote a hymn I don't agree with. Nor has it increased my IQ one point.
In Christ, Sally in GA
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 09:35:48
I agree with Pastor Deb! Right on!
Adults often believe they are the one's in charge and in order to be transformed........so we become people of the book........we need to let go and allow our God to be "in charge." Young people have much to teach adults about love.......freely being open to the lives of others. So when we adults are in charge and we send that message to others........where is God?
ts
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 14:31:49
Some really good stuff here this week -- as usual. Often when I come to the site I discover that I am taking a totally different view of the lection than everyone else seems to be doing, yet I seldom go away without finding something that provokes my thinking! This week I am planning to look at this text from the aspect of "Sacrificial Living" and I have found a number of ideas that will likely help to shape my sermon.
In my understanding, faith is much more than how we worship. It involves discipleship, as Sally says, and there has to be commitment and struggle with our daily lives to reach discipleship. Many of the people in my congregations will tell me "That was a good sermon" as they leave the service on Sunday mornings, but I don't often SEE that they have really gotten the message! There appears to be an attitude by many that if they show up on Sunday and put in the occasional 3 years on a committee, they have made a commitment to discipleship. Yet I know there are others who doggedly try to persuade the rest of the congregation that they have a role to play in discipling the unchurched in these communities even if it means sacrificing some long held belief or (heaven forbid) a sports event in favor of helping someone understand the role of God in his/her life! (Sorry about the soapbox! Yes, I know sports are important in people's lives, too.)
I like MW'S question -- What does sacrifice mean to people today? That question may well be the springboard for my more organized thoughts this week.
StudentPastor in KS
Date: 24 Aug 2002
Time: 17:14:34
One body with many members, not all the same but each important for its own purpose and function, and good for the whole. Paul fleshes it out better in 1 Corinthians 12, but it got me to thinking. Who in your congregation could represent the nosehairs, the warts, the hemorrhoids in the Body of Christ? Who are the tonsils and appendix of the Body, once important perhaps but now just hanging on until they get inflamed and cause an infection? Just wondering.....
Date: 24 Aug 2002
Time: 18:48:58
Aslanclan: You asked about the term "perfect." I know it's late Saturday night (I am the definition of a desperate preacher) but couldn't resist addressing your question about this word. In Greek "telos" means 'end' or 'goal.' This is translated "perfect"- loses something, doesn't it? mhc in pa