What a relief to know that we don't have to be in control, even to know what to pray for. When the bad times come, and we feel helpless, hopeless, and out of control, we can know the Holy Spirit's presence and peace. Thank you; praise you, Lord!!! J.J., Indpls.
What a relief to know that we don't have to be in control, even to know what to pray for. When the bad times come, and we feel helpless, hopeless, and out of control, we can know the Holy Spirit's presence and peace. Thank you; praise you, Lord!!! J.J., Indpls.
What a relief to know that we don't have to be in control, even to know what to pray for. When the bad times come, and we feel helpless, hopeless, and out of control, we can know the Holy Spirit's presence and peace. Thank you; praise you, Lord!!! J.J., Indpls.
As I read the passage I remembered a conversation I had some years ago with an older minister who was serving as my spiritual director. I confessed to him that my prayer life was the pits. I couldn't pray. God wasn't listening. Etc. I said, "My prayers don't go any higher than the ceiling." He said, "What! Do you think God lives in your attic?!!" Then he leaned forward and put his finger right in the middle of my chest. "Your prayers never have to go any further than that!" he said. I have never forgotten the lesson. God's presence with us doesn't depend on our awareness of it.
-Paul of SC.
Here is a time to talk about the power of prayer. It is not our power but God's. Many people don't feel comfortable praying and especially in public. I encourage others to pray at meetings. The pastor is not the only one who can pray, I tell them. "But you are so good at it" is the response. I practice. Over time more people volunteer to pray. Just like when we learned as children, our prays grow when we practice tapping into the Spirit. God nurtures our prayer life.
Bruce in WI
Verse 26 make me think of those times when I haven't the words to pray but have the desire. It's then that I pray in the spirit with words that only the Holy Spirit can discern.
Although I think there are some who make way too much of the gift of tongues (or praying in tongues), I do believe that there is such value in quietly praying in the Spirit. And such comfort in knowing that in some mysterious but wondrous way I'm making a connection with God.
Praying in the spirit is not something I tell many people about. I've seen too many hurt by those who emphasize this gift over the gift-giver. But I would love for other's to experience the one-ness with God that I experience when praying in the spirit.
Rick in Va
Rick in VA, The way you discribe the Holy Spirit praying is that you have some kind of control over it. You make it sould as though one can just put the Holy Spirit on auto pilot by fliping a switch. I don't get that from this scripture. I understand it to say the Holy Spirit takes over when we can't even flip the switch. Peace, Brent
Brent, I didn't get the same message from Rick as you did. I am a United Methodist who came from a Pentecostal background. I know EXACTLY what he is referring to when he says that many have made too much of speaking in tongues. You are both right on target though, when you say that The Holy Spirit speaks when we cannot even flip the swith. I have witnessed in both styles of worship that The Holy Spirit works when and how The Holy Spirit will. He is God, and I am thankful for Him and to Him. Peace, jm in NC.
Brent and jm in NC,
I don't believe for a moment that the Holy Spirit is one who 'posesses' me in a manner equivalent to 'demon posession' where I lose complete and total control. I've come to believe firmly that I'm indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but that I have the ability (by my own rebellion) to squelch His effectiveness in and through me.
So in essence, I can turn Him off and on in me via my own disobedience. I do believe that God's will and purpose will be fulfilled whether I obey or not (I call this Sovereignty) but I have the ability to decide wheter He will have to use someone else to accomplish His goals.
Otherwise we are but robots, programmed to do as the Holy Spirit wills, which means we cannot choose to love God but are 'programmed' to do so.
If that be the case, we (as a Church) can close up shop, there is no need to evangelize or minister, and we can all go along, much like the Stepford Wives, in a spirit-filled stupor, doing just that which we were programmed to do.
Doesn't make since to me...
My acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior made me the temple of His Holy Spirit. I was filled at that moment. But I leak (figuratively here please!). The cares and concerns of this life, my own sinful condition, my 'old man' are reasons why I leak. Which means I need continuous filling. It is my choice I believe to seek that filling. I can choose not to seek it. It's called free will. And when I choose not to seek it, then I'm squelching it. And in that sense, I believe that individually we can certainly turn the Holy Spirit off like a light switch. Thank God for the Church, for it is the Church (more specifically the remnant within the 'apostate' Church) that I believe the Holy Spirit uses to fulfill His purposes. But I can certainly choose not to participate.
I hope this clarifies my position.
Rick in Va
Rick in VA 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words.
I think we are to the point where we need to return to the orginal discussion. We have drifted off into othere areas. We were discussing the fact that we have the Holy Spirit in intercede for us when we are so distressed that we can't pray. Yes, Rick we do have a choice to reject the Holy Spirit, but we don't control it. That is the same as saying we control God. I don't think we ever tell the Holy Spirit how to pray for us. I believe we have free will, but we don't control the Holy Spirit. I have seen many people who think they are so much more spiritual than everyone else. Like Paul tried to tell the church in Cornith, we should never feel that we have a better gift than anyone else or to make them feel inferior because they don't have the same gift as us. Some people look for proff of the indewlling of the Holy Spirit and they think it must be the same as their own.
v. 22ff talks about travail and groaning as we wait. v 26 begins with, "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness..." It seems to me the sighs too deep for words are companions of travail and groaning. ie. the Spirit is with us in this travail, groaning, waiting, sighing time, to aid us is this time to keep us faithful"according to the will of God."
In that I find the Spirit as a source, refuge, inspiration, and much more. In that time I find prayer or the Spirit is not an on and off, lightswitch kind of presence but the source and possibility for life as we wait for the positive outcome of God's victory.
Most often we acknowledge our need for God's help when we are at that sighing, groaning, time of travail( much like the Roman Christians must have felt) and lose sight of the life communion we are invited to share and from which nothing in life or death...will be able to seperate us from this great love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. rr in nc
20 JUL 99
Sometime ago I responded to a friend who was lamenting our fallen president (personal moral sin). I wondered with her, what might happen if a nation arose in prayer on behalf of him. She admitted that she couldn't do that... the repugnance of the offense and, she also confessed, some doubt about God's ability to transform him; some inability to even imagine such a miracle. I mentioned Ephesians 3:20, and how times like that (and, e.g. personal trauma)when our imaginations are thwarted are the times when we trust in God's ability to "accomplished abundantantly more than WE can ask or imagine." Seems like Romans 8:26-27 applies too: The Spirit wants all to be "conformed to the image of his Son." Thanks God (the Spirit!) for her (Greek, Pneuma, Hebrew, Ruah) intercessions when most needed! Peter in CA
It can be helpful to regard vss. 35-36, and 38-39 as a checklist like the one you fill out when giving blood, or for a medical history at the doctor's. Many parishioniers will relate to this. Paul is asking what will separate us from God's love in Christ. Then the specifics (paralleling the medical questions about illnesses you may have had ranging from the usual childhood diseases through jaundice, tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS) and the catch all "anything else in all creation" paralleling the open-ended "any other illnesses." R.J. in ND
Fellow preaching desperadoes, I'm coming in late here with the earlier discussion between Rick, Brent and jm regarding 'control' of the Holy Spirit. Reading through I Corinthians 14 it seems Paul was aware he had a *choice* about how he prayed - with his own mind (Paul's word) or in tongues. Its not a matter of trying to control the Holy Spirit, but being aware that there are different ways in which we can pray. Paul is saying that the control should be over *ourselves*. Which is what I heard Rick saying. While I share Rick's prayer experience, I would want to caution against suggesting that praying in tongues IS praying in the Spirit. It is ONE way of praying in the Spirit, but not the only way. In fact some of the times when I have felt a strong presence of the Spirit leading me in prayer have been in complete silence, with very little conscious thought on my part. Its been more an experience of 'abiding' in Christ, a sense of being at one with God. From the Romans 8 passage it would also seem there are times when the Spirit prays within us and we are not even aware of it. Our choice, then, would seem to be a prayer to get in touch with the silent movement of the Spirit within. Hope this is helpful for the discussion. Chris from Down-Under.
Chris from Down Under,
I agree with you completely. Praying in tongues is but one way of praying in the Spirit. I did not intend to imply that there was only one way to pray in the Spirit.
Thanks for making the distinction,
Rick in Va
Excuse my non-sermon question, but with all the Va Tx OH, nick names, Geoff from downunder would love to know where Chris from downunder is?!
21 JUL 99
If we're "predestined" to be conformed to Christ, what's the point of "calling" (i.e., inviting) us? It could be the distinction between our intented DESTINY (cf. Ephesians 1:3-5)and all events being preDETERMINED. I'm running to the lexicon right now to check on the Greek sense of "predestined." Peter in CA
21 JUL 99, part II According to Louw & Nida, Greek-English Lexicon, pro-oh-REE-sen, to choose or select in advance. "Those whom he had chosen beforehand, he had already decided should become like his Son". May also be understood ("predestined") as "to know beforehand." So, God knows what God want (and God accomplishes all He will). I've heard of pro athletes not wanting to go to the team that selected them because it was "too cold" where they played (I'm from Wisconsin!). Being chosen is one thing; consenting to the choosing is another. Or better, affirming God's work, recognizing the gift of salvation and accepting the invitation (the "Call") to discipleship/ Peter in CA
Geoff from downunder, I'm the Uniting Church minister at Mullumbimby and Brunswick Heads, N.S.W, 15 minutes north of our most easterly point, Byron Bay. Beaches, beautiful mountains and rainforest. As Maxwell Smart would say "And ... loving it!" Chris from Downunder.
Does anyone know why Paul is warning about angels here? Is there something about angels I am not understanding? I am doing a lay meditation this week in our minister's holiday time...At present I am concentrating on the things which separate us from the love of God... our fear, our loneliness, our attachments....would like to use the "The Runaway Bunny" for a children's story but don't think the right age group of children will come out for the session. Just thoughts... Julie/ON
Please share "The Runaway Bunny" with us. I am unfamiliar with that story. But it sounds like an angle I pursuing.
<>< Kingdom DJ
"The Runaway Bunny" is a children's book by Margaret Wise Brown in which a bunny tells his mother how he will run away and she tells him how she will insist on catching him. It is a charming version of "what can separate us from the love of God". It's aimed at about four to nine year olds, but I know that the story touches something pretty universal. Julie/ON
Verse 26 is my focus. The word generally translated as "helps" can mean in the Greek, "to grasp hold of with someone." I like to think of this in terms of the trapeze artist's grip, hand-to-wrist. We cannot of our own feelings, knowledge, will power even pray as we should to God. With that in mind, here is a summation from "Hazy conditions would have made flight treacherous," an article from USA Today, 7-19-99, Cover Story. From 5,500 feet above the Atlantic in a small plane in the dark of night, sea and sky blend into an inky blackness. Gone is the horizon. Gone are the stars. Banking just 4 degrees, the instructor pilot nudges his small piper aircraft into a very gradual right turn. The plane's wings lose some of their lift. Within 15 seconds the small plane drops 500 feet and turns 35 degrees -- But your senses don't notice the change! The ride is still smooth and the view out the window is just murky darkness. 18 seconds into the banking turn, you feel a sensation of increased speed; there is a slightly higher pitch from the engine. Something is wrong. This pilot levels the plane. Had he let the spin progress, he would have quickly lost control. Such spins are insidious because the body's senses -- from the inner ear and from the eye cannot be trusted. The instructor pilot's words of wisdom: "To be a pilot is to trust not on your feelings and senses, but to trust the aircraft instruments." To live this life, our trust must be in God. That means to let Christ's Spirit grasp us and lead us. Neal, NE
Thanks for all the insights. This passage is as rich and deep as any and I like the focus on prayer. Prayer is the God breathed gift that precedes our yearning's or awakens them: John Wesley's belief in "prevenient grace" applies as a theological parallel. I am also thinking of the text-" we are more than conquerors through him who loved us." vs37. FAith is sustained by the Spirit in the midst of all that could erode our faith. Faith transcends circumstances and as a faith grounded in God's love is indestructible. The Kennedy and Bessette tragedy is a contemporary point a sermon can tie to as it shows that a faith overcoming every power is not a faith lived in in a protective bubble, but a faith confronting death. All death is an occassion to reaffirm the faith that overcomes. This is so fundamental that we can only attempt in words to speak to its truth and leave its actual benefit to the Spirit. More than a conqueror- only by God's power and through God's Spirit.
bobby in texas