25 Jun 1999
12:31:05

We can't preach here - autobiographical sermon is demanded. How do we live the truth of Paul's statements? How do we trap ourselves in sin? My God, the river of evil flows deep within my veins.

tom in ga


27 Jun 1999
19:45:17

to tom in ga

Wow, this text really hit you! Ah but the last lines7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Is it not an almight God who can and does deliver us even if we can't linger in God's presence and power for more than a moment or two. Praise God for what He has done in and through Jesus the Christ.

dale in Norcatur,KS


28 Jun 1999
15:51:59

The text should it us all. We are all sinners. We may not tell our worst sin, but we might be vulnerable to tell how we struggle with sin, too.

My children's sermon will be based on this text. I'll let the children know that God loves us even though we sin. Obediently following Christ, is not easy but we are grateful that in Christ I'm a forgiven sinner. The church (nor the pulpit) is not a play ground for saints but a hospital for sinners. I come to be healed too. I need the assurance of forgiveness just as much as the person in the pew. We demonstrate forgiveness when we accept our failures and those of others. I need to be forgiven by members of the congregation.

We preach this with integrity and honesty. We all fall short of God's glory so that is why we can declare "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Bruce in WI


29 Jun 1999
09:56:52

"I try to do what's good and try not to do what's bad but I keep doing bad even if I'm trying as hard as I can." My daughter's words echoed these from the apostle Paul. But she'd never read them..or even heard them in a sermon. Her words were inspired by living the life of someone diagnosed with Tourette's syndrome. Imagine being 10 years old and having neurological impulses to say and do things that you knew were wrong but could not control. So often though I remind her that her struggle is "no different than the average bear" (humor is is highly valued in the midst of struggle at our house). Her struggle is more highly pronounced than some others. Let us remember those struggling to do what is good when we preach this Sunday. Before we judge, before we reprimand and are intolerant, we need to know the "rest of the story". And pray for my daughter and the rest of the "strangers like me."


29 Jun 1999
13:44:20

Thank you! to the contributor who has the daughter with Tourette's Syndrom. Your comments helped me get an angle on this passage. I can certainly identify with Paul's anquish over his continued disobedience, but you daughter's story makes it even clearer! May I quote her in my sermon? I also appreciated your reminder not to judge others. That is a very important point.

Melanie in NE


29 Jun 1999
15:11:24

I found myself dealing with a theological image that comes from John Wesley.

In one sermon he notes that the humans in their 'natural' state need God's prevenient grace to awaken them. They neither fear not love God.

In their 'legal' state, they know God and fear God. They try to justify themselves (a legal image). Wesely notes that God's convicting/convincing grace can use their effort to show them they cannot justify themselves.

This drives them to experience God's justifying or saving grace. In the cross, gift of Jesus Christ, God saved us. Saving grace is what God does for us.

Then, in response we move into the evangelical state of our humanity and experience God's sanctifying and perfecting grace. This is what God does to us and in us.

I'm struck that Wesley's language changes from juridical/legal in the "legal" state to a language that is more 'medical' in the evangelical state. Restore, heal, made whole become the words to describe the experience of God's sanctifying grace.

This passgae seems to note the struggle between the legal and evangelical states of our human experience. And it seems to point us to the possibility of experiencing God's grace in either state.

But the revelation that comes from trying to justify ourselves (legal language)is - we cannot. And then when we accept justifying grace, we yield to and experience God's sanctifying grace (medical language) to make us whole.

I'm working toward an emphasis on "Which Profession? Law or Medicine"

I'll appreciate any more reflections on how to move this good news to a practical arena.

JDM 6/29 6:10


30 Jun 1999
13:03:40

I don't believe Paul is being self-descriptive here, but is echoing the struggle of the fallen world. I think Paul's "Me" is really "All of us."

I'm going to approach this text from the standpoint of "Independent Yes, But Who Will Save You From Yourself" The culture around us says just pull yourself up. I plan on visiting the "Self-Help" section of a bookstore for ideas and images. The problem we face is not one of knowledge, it's one of power. Paul says the only power to change comes from the Holy Spirit, given through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I can't help looking forward to Romans 8...Life in the Spirt for answers. It doesn't matter what you do, or how hard you try, the only way to be rescued from yourself is it give up and follow the leading of God's Spirit.

Now to break this last part down to something to "take home and chew on". Any help?

Also thanks to the contributor about Tourette's Syndrome...we have a teenager in our church family suffering from it. I'm praying for your daughter.

John near Pitts.


30 Jun 1999
14:55:30

I agree with "John near Pitts" that Paul was not merely talking about his personal life here. He is making reference to the whole human race. That is why we can so easily identify with him! The verses before this passage help us put it all in perspective. Still, because we can identify on a personal level with Paul's words, we have a great "hook" for getting the interest of our congregation.

I'm beginning with a story of how, this last week I was the victim of a road rager for 14 miles on our rural highway. And in the end the really frightening thing about it all was my own anger. I didn't want to react as I did (and I didn't physically resort to retaliation, except for laying on the horn), but I was fuming before it was all over and very close to doing something really stupid that might have made matters worse. "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" Only Christ! Thanks be to God!

Melanie in NE


30 Jun 1999
17:11:02

Hi all.

I'm curious. Those of you who have said so, why don't you think Paul was describing his own struggle?

I have my own "take" on this, but I'll save it for later to give you a chance to answer without having to deal with my bias!

Rick in Canada, eh?


01 Jul 1999
05:20:04

Rick in Canada,

Just read the chapter from the beginning. Verse seven is the first mention of "I" When Paul says: 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." is he not including the Romans? Is he the only person to know this? Of course not. Same goes for the description that some are attributing as Paul's personal experience.

As well, in chapter 7 Paul is talking about life before Christ. Christ comes to deliver us from ourselves (sin). Paul is living in Chapter 8 not in Chapter 7. He's building his case theologically for the ethical imperatives that will come in chapter 12 and following.

John near Pitts.


01 Jul 1999
12:47:02

Paul is speaking to all of humanity through the leading of the Holy Spirit. He speaks about himself simply because there were few who had that passion for keeping the law then he did. It is as if he is saying to everyone, "if I can't justify myself and my actions than who can". Paul is guiding his listeners in an attempt to avoid the two great ditches one can fall in while walking the straight and narrow pathway. They are works righteousness which leads to false pride and cheap grace which declares that everything is OK becuase Jesus Christ covers it all for us. Paul identifies the reality that one must first admit to being unable to save oneself and the total depravity of our human nature and therefore our total dependance on God.


02 Jul 1999
06:47:57

This text certainly echoes the struggle that goes on with me. I will entitle Sunday's sermon, "The Struggle Within." The struggle is seen in the text. I even have the first point: Our Struggles begin with Sin. My third point is: Jesus Christ brings us through our Struggles. But, I'm having trouble finding a good second point. Are there any suggustions?

Thanks,

Russell in Jackson, MS.


02 Jul 1999
07:51:48

Russell in Jackson,

How about focusing on Struggling Within: 1. What I want. 2. What I do. 3. What Jesus does?

John near Pitts.


02 Jul 1999
11:09:13

Russell in Jackson, how about as your second point, "..but we are powerless to overcome sin." Then you'd have a logical progression from "The struggle begins with sin" through "We are powerless to overcome sin" to " We are victorious through Christ." -Paul of SC


02 Jul 1999
13:43:18

John near Pitts and Paul of SC, thank you for your advice.

God bless you!

Russell In Jackson


03 Jul 1999
10:35:10

It strikes me that Christ is the one who is victorious. We share in his victory because he shares it with us, not because we overcome whatever sin happens to be assailing us at any given time.

I know, I can hear the response from my members already, "But what about the Biblical call to holiness?" Being holy has very little to do with avoiding or overcoming sin (which we mistakenly understand as 'not sinning'). Being holy has much more to do with being set aside by God for a different (other) sort of life, one which trusts God, which trusts God's promises, which trusts that, no matter what form our struggle takes, no matter how often we fail (every day, every hour!), the promise applies to us. We are loved. We are forgiven. We are free to share these incredible gifts with others the same way we were given them - freely!

*That's* why we celebrate with Paul, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Rick in Canada, eh?


03 Jul 1999
10:59:09

Hi again.

I know you've all been waiting for this... :-)

First, my thanks to John and Melanie for responding to my query. Don'cha just love electronic conversations!

My take on the above comments re: Paul suddenly switching to "I" language, is the result of reading Henri Nouwen. When we look deep inside our individual selves, we discover a surprise: a shared humanity.

By revealing, a little bit at a time, the inner workings of our own souls, the inner struggles, the inner frustration, the inner hatreds, the inner longings, we discover that we *are* as other people, even that sinner over there (see Luke 18:10-14).

A pastor/friend once told me that we preachers do our best work when we reveal our own vulnerabilities. That frees our hearers (note - not necessarily our "listeners"!) to look inside themselves and make the same discovery. Then, when the good news of God's love in Christ is proclaimed and acted out (sacramentally, through fellowship, etc.), people can begin to see that it really does apply to them, even with the "stuff" they discovered inside themselves.

Talk about saved by grace!

Rick in Canada, eh?


03 Jul 1999
11:38:57

Here's a couple good links to more info on Tourette...

A Mother's story: http://kidshealth.org/parent/behavior/tourette.html

Myths about it: http://neuro-www2.mgh.harvard.edu/tsa/AboutTS/myths.html

Ted in CA.