Endurance image - might be nice just after the Olympics.
Graphic image of being saved by Jesus' blood - on a communion Sundy - especially with the "reconciliation" in v. 11
sally in ga
I am sensing from the Romans 5 passage a feeling from Paul of the importance of accepting the grace of God in all aspects of life. But two main things for me are the aspects of war and reconciliation. In these days, 2002, since the war errupted 9-11-o1, on freedom and terrorism. I am scared to think that so many, politicians, common people, scientists are giving up on peace and reconciliation. If we must live during war between nations what do we do to bring about some good news and peace for people? Pray for peace. Pray for reconciliation of all God's children.
I am sensing from the Romans 5 passage a feeling from Paul of the importance of accepting the grace of God in all aspects of life. But two main things for me are the aspects of war and reconciliation. In these days, 2002, since the war errupted 9-11-o1, on freedom and terrorism. I am scared to think that so many, politicians, common people, scientists are giving up on peace and reconciliation. If we must live during war between nations what do we do to bring about some good news and peace for people? Pray for peace. Pray for reconciliation of all God's children.
5:3-5 Perhaps this is one way we can look at why we should exercise reconciliation in our daily life? The problems that Jacob endured before he reconciled with Esau helped strenghten his character. God does not promise that reconciliation will be easy, but he does promise to to fill our hearts with the Holy Spirit when we struggle to do his will.
"God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us."
Sunday night I went to a Billy Joel / Elton John concert, and watched as 30,000 people sang "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun."
How do we preach joy over Christ's sacrifice for sin to a society (including many in the pews) which actually celebrates sin?
Of course, the church is partly to blame. We have the greatest reason for joy, namely salvation in Jesus Christ. Yet, the church is often the biggest bunch of killjoys in the world. And when I say many Christians are killjoys, I don't mean they're killjoys because they oppose sin. I mean they're killjoys because they're life-draining, self-centered, grouchy people. I expect to see their pictures under the word "dour" in the dictionary.
Nonetheless, that's not the only problem here. There's is an equal, perhaps greater problem. Namely, that our society really does celebrate sin. No longer merely debating whether certain controversial actions are sin, instead it's "Tune in tonight for our 'Reality' game show where the winner is the first person to successfully get two women drunk and have sex with both of them in the same evening."
Ah, now I'm just complaining. Maybe I'll go find some sinners to cheer me up. :)
Judge Redd
I saw a commercial a couple of weeks ago for a news program that was going to "introduce Todd Beamer's new baby to the world." Todd (I think that's the right first name) was one of the people on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on the morning of 9-11. He, of course, is celebrated as a hero.
I found myself wondering what kind of a life his new daughter would have. Not only would she never meet her father, but she was marked before her birth. For the rest of her life she'll be marked as the daughter of a hero, and will have all the notoriety that will come with it. She'll never have the chance to be anything else.
I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this. United Methodists believe in prevenient grace, grace that touched and captured us before we even knew about it, and, I guess, marked us for life. That's part of the justification by faith, or at least the realization of and acceptance of that marking--which, of course, ties into baptism.
Like I said, this isn't yet fully developed!
Sybil from Kansas
Judge Redd.
Your comments reminded of the story of the little boy who was standing up on the pew and smiling at people. He wasn't making noise or being disruptive but his Mother kept telling him to quit and finally she gave hin a tap on the rear and he sat down and started crying. Then she was heard to say, "Thats better you are in church. Or the little girl who came in one day all excited and shouting old Jasper is going to heaven and her mother quietly tried to explain that mules don't go to heaven, but she couldn't convince the child and finally asked why she was so shure Jasper was going to heaven. She replied,"every one said grandpaw went to heaven and he always went around with such a long face and Jasper had the longest face she had ever seen." I don't believe the Gospel should be compromised but I do believe we should make church so enjoyable that they will want to come. I had a friend who used to play organ in supper clubs. He and I were talking one evening and he looked at me real serious and asked if I really knew why people hung out in bars? His answere was simple and extremely to the point. They are lonely. We open the church once a week. We need to start thinking about a sevenday day alternatinve where people can gather. Just rambling sorry
Harold in Alabama
I'm not real good at the stand-up comedy-type sermons, but I heard one Jerry Clower-style preacher talking about this woman who "looked like she was baptized in pickle juice."
As to the mule named Jasper - here's a real-life (canine) Jasper and a little girl named Desiree. Jasper was Desiree's dog, and in the small church I just moved from in June, we just lifted up concerns and praises during the prayer time. Well, we heard a long, running, detailed week-by-week detail of Jasper's skin condition. We learned of his blindness, his frailty, his getting old, and Desiree continued to lift him up in prayer just about every week. No one said anything directly to me, but word came to me 2nd-party that a couple older folks were complaining about it, and my response was to suggest that they come to me directly. No one did, so we continued to listen to Desiree and pray for Jasper during congregational prayer - and we learned to love that old mutt and a little girl seldom dressed warmly enough (sundresses in January), messy hair, and a serious problem saying "r's," gave a more powerful witness of faithfulness and grace than any somber Christian could have.
Sally in GA
When I was little and would get angry at my parents for something that they wouldn't let me to, I'd fuss and complain and sometimes say to them: "Well, I didn't ask to be born!" I got that sense again as I read this passage.
"I didn't ask you to die for me." "I have lots of peace as long as you stay out of my life." "I'm not playing by your rules, God, so I don't need to be saved."
How do we communicate God's amazing love in dying for us while we were God's enemies to people who are not coming from a Biblical world view? How do we speak to the people described by Judge Redd?
John near Pitts.
I've got a neat little resource called "Preaching the Revised Common Lectionary," a joint effort by Soards, Dozeman, & McCabe -
Points out that Paul is distinctly pointing to the present reality of the resurrection AS WELL AS to the future hope of salvation. Our current state of justification AS WELL AS our eternal life. It's not the best paraphrase of their description, but it helps me navigate his language (that boy wouldn't have made A's in writing class).
From this, I might gather a play with verb tenses: Past - sinners, Present - justified through the blood, future - saved through him (his resurrection).
I've entitled mine "Through the Eyes of Faith," as a pick-up from last week's sermon on the Gospel lesson.
Illustrations, I need illustrations!!!!
Sally in gA
For the season of Lent... the study we're using was made in 1993... a video series on "Wrestling with the Angels"... first week...
Tony Compolo...
Second week...
Phillip Yancey...
Last nights video talked about pain... and what is the Christian response... Paul's use of "But More than THAT..." reminds me of one comment made by Yancey who said, "Don't confuse God with Life!"... in other words... bad things happen to the just and unjust... the righteous and not so righteous... even sinners, yep, them (ME) too...
pulpitt in ND
In response to Sybil in Kansas Todd Beamer was a Christian. Based on your comment I looked him up on the internet. Look at www.flight93.org/beamer.html. I had thought of him as an example of who might die for the righteous (v.7). They are heroes. The cop that chases, but then saves out of the river, a bad guy is just doing his job. God loved the bad guys, and saved us. thanks Sybil for the thought. Fellow Methodist in FL, Craig
Moltmann said some place that because Jesus bore our sins on the cross grace has come into the world - this grace is trinitarian at its very center. Now it is not up to us to explain it, simple to enter the mystery. Jesus bore the Law on the Cross and thus has set us free from the Law. That freedom is trinitarian, again we are not to explain it, simply to know that we are free in the love of a God who has opened us to a new Spirit-filled future.
The only way we can affirm our faith is to become not only people of the Presence and prayer but also a people seeking to set others free in the power of the incomprehensible mystery that we stand always before.
tom in ga
Trinity: A Divine Mystery
We cannot understand it, how do we explain it?
When will we be able to bear the truth, the whole truth? What will he declare? GRACE
We make faith, God, and worship more mysterious than necessary. It is simple grace, but not cheap grace. God loves us and requires us to be guided in Christ's way by the Holy Spirit.
Jonesey in WI
I've read that it was common wisdom that one's suffering was brought on by one's sin. But, Jesus suffered. Therefore, Paul's statement that we boast in our suffering has a lot of power because that news in itself represented hope for people. There are folks today who think their suffering is punishment from God. I wonder if the "boasting" can be good news to them as well? MTSOfan
Endurance, Character, and Hope.
hmmm... three points of faith. I wouldn't want to give the impression that the three persons of the Trinity somehow represent these three points of living in discipleship, but I can't help but wonder if these three "steps," if you will, do not provide the direction from earth-bound to Heaven-bound???
any thoughts?
revo (glad to be back)
I am thinking about an old song that has for the refrain "Two out of three ain't bad". My idea is that we might settle as individuals, hopefully not, for less than we need in a relationship but in the Trinity we have all we need for a spiritual relationship. Any one know the song title and artist? The Peddling Pastor
I want to use an old song that has a line that goes something like "Two out of three an't bad". Some poeple my settle in relationship that do not have what they need and want, hopefully not, but we do not have to settle in our spiritual relationships becuse we have the Trinity. We are given all that we need spiritually. Anyone know the name and artist? Maybe even a few of the lines. Thanks The Peddling Pastor
Peddling Pastor,
The song you are referring to is by Meatloaf and it might not be helpful to quote much of it: I want you, I need you, but there aint no way I'm ever going to love you. So don't be sad, cause two out of three ain't bad. R.
Remember the old saying:
"It's not what you know, it's who you know."
Usually a cynical comment, in this case a promise to believe in. Thank God in three persons!
SS in PA :-)
Peddling Pastor, I remember that song fairly well, I hope this helps. It got me a little nostalgic. Song- Two out of three ain't bad
Artist- Meatloaf
Lyrics as far as I can remember..... Baby we can talk all night, but that ain't getting us nowhere, I've told you everything I possibly can, there's nothing left inside of me. And maybe we can cry all night, but that'll never change the way that I feel. The snow is really piling up outside, I wish you wouldn't make it easy.... I've poured it on and I've poured it out, I've tried to show you just how much I care, I'm tired of words and I'm too horse to shout, but you've been cold to me so long, I'm crying icicles instead of tears, And all I can do, is keep on telling you... > (chorus) I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way I'm ever gonna love you, now don't be sad, 'cause two outta three ain't bad.... > You'll never find your gold on a sandy beach, You'll never drill for oil on a city street, I know your looking for a ruby in a mountain of rock, but there ain't no Coupe De Ville, hididng at the bottom of a crackerjack box... I can't lie, how can I tell you that I'm something I'm not, no matter how I try, I'll never be able, to give you something, something that I just haven't got.... Oh there is only one girl that I will ever love,but that was, so many years ago, I know I'll never get her out of my heart, she never loved me back, oooh I know, Well I remember how she left me on a stormy night, 'cause she kissed me and got out of our bed. And though I pleaded and I begged her not to walk out that door, she packed her bags and turned right away... And she kept on telling me, she kept on telling me... > I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way that I'm ever gonna love you, now don't be sad, 'cause two out of three ain't bad, now don't be sad, 'cause two out of three ain't bad... Baby we can talk all night.... But that ain't getting us nowhere...
-Rhino
I believe all the texts for this Sunday tie together well. (See post under John 16:12-15).
TK in OK
What does "justified by faith" mean? Does that refer to our faith, or to the faith of Jesus Christ---faithful obedience to the point of death on a cross? AB
Sorry, off the subject, but have you ever done a "Parable of the Talents" experiment in your church. If so, I need ideas dn in AZ
Being a UM preacher, I'm taking the UM approach on "justification by faith" as that we are accepted, loved and saved by God by God's action, not by our own. As a professor of mine said, while explaining prevenient grace ("coming-before" grace)--we look back and see in the footsteps of our journey that God was with us all along, and we didn't even know it. This is where our peace comes from; not from anything the world can give us, but that we are justified by God. "Just Peace." (It is also Peace with Justice Sunday in the UM church). Hope this helps! Linda
To AB -
If we take the "antecendent" from the word "since" as referring to Romans 4:13-25, which would seem to be likely in the construction of this argument,it would appear that Paul is referring to our faith in Jesus Christ. If we take this as a faith of the Church in Jesus, then the processing which takes place from verses 3-5, from suffering to hope to the Spirit is a message which (it seems) a number of the "old line" churches need to hear. How many of us serve churches which seem to focus on the problems (sufferings) instead of the hope available to us. I know that any number of people at the administrative body (whatever it is called) seem to be obsessed with what is wrong and not with what is possible through the power of the Spirit and hope in the Lord. Despite Paul's caution that it won't be easy (from suffering to hope is a long process), it would seem that we could turn our efforts toward encouragement in our churches to the possibilities which are before us, rather than solely focusing on what was in the past, or what is apparently going wrong. If with take the Johanine passage into account, with the promise of guidance by the Spirit, then we have a message which can uplift a church and its members. The psalter also speaks of God's love and care for us - "what are humans beings that you are mindful of them, mortals that you care for them?" That is a message many of us need to hear, now that the dog days of summer have set in (or at least they have in HOT So. Ga.
God Bless;
Rev. Rick (fanning away in SUNNY So. Ga.)
Linda's thoughts of "looking back and seeing in our footsteps" brought to mind the little (sometimes overused) story of "Footprints in the Sand"... but an appropriate lead in to our preaching.
Joe by the "Oceanside" in Delaware
We are justified (not necessarily declared righteous but rather guilty and forgiven) by faith (our response to God) through Grace (God's movement and initiative to draw us to God's self) What attracts me to these verses is the peace we are given by means of God's grace. -John near Pitts.
One of the most helpful definitions of God's grace that I have heard was given by UM Bishop Kenneth Carder. In what he calls the "house of grace," Bishop Carder depicts a house with a porch. The porch is used to illustrate "prevenient" grace (the grace of God which has always surrounded us, even when we had no idea or understanding of grace); the front door is used to illustrate "justifying" grace (that grace we trust when we give our heart to Jesus); and the rooms in the house are used to illustrate "sanctifying" grace (growing grace). This has been helpful to me in preaching on God's marvelous grace! Danny in Kingsport, Tennessee
If suffering eventually produces hope, is the suggestion here that the point, or reason, for suffering is to produce hope? While we might all agree with that (and that, after we have suffered, we found ourselves more hopeful), is the suggestion that a loving God inflicts suffering on God's children to produce hope? And what is the role of the Spirit in producing hope? I find suffering, although common, a troubling thing, especially if it is ordained or created by God. Eric in OR
I think that the suffering here is that which is done as a result of our faith...i.e. suffering because of our faith, not suffering tragedy etc. I think that suffering is a by product of our faith, e.g. the beatitudes. I think Jesus was making the point that if we do it right the world will persecute us.
Just my thoughts. -John near Pitts.
C.S. Lewis said that we are like a dog on a leash. We want to go forward yet our owner pulls us back. Our self will is the urge to go forward and often gets us into trouble. Our Lord is the ine oulling back on the leash, helping us to get our self will in check. But as we pull forward the leash gets tighter and more unconfortable. An interesting illustration. John in hot N. Ga.
With a twinkle in his eye my childhood pastor used to insert the definition after the word justified--that means just-as-if-i'd-never-sinned. I recommend Brennan Manning's Ragamuffin Gospel as a reminder that we are saved by grace, not by the quality of our praxis, site analysis, five-year-plan, etc. Anne in Providence
Another way of thinking of "justification" and "justified" is ye Olde English word "right-wising." It means being set in the right direction on the right path. R.J. in ND
I think that justification is most simply defined as pardon. The yes has already been said by God in the gift of Christ. For us to receive our pardon all that is required is to believe God's good news of pardon. Upon our trust in that Word we are freed from the guilt and power of sin.
That said, I preached on justification last week, I am going to focus on the text's application of our relationship with God to our sufferings. What difference does peace with God make when I am up against it in suffering? Paul offers comfort but no escape from reality.
We're gearing up for a grand church trial of a pastor who performed a holy union for two gay members of the congregation. So all of Paul's business about justification by faith, hot law, seems very curious these days. I do not know how we United Methodists can preach on Paul's concept and then turn about and live by the law. Oh well.
Kermit krueger Brookfield, Illinois
If I believed that God caused us suffering, I would be upset, too. But Romans says that Calvary is the proof of God's LOVE for us. To coin a phrase: "Suffering happens." How marvelous that God in God's great ecology of things has provided a process by which our sufferings (of whatever kind) can be transformed from tribulation to patience to experience to hope! God "causes all things to work together for the good" -- I think that is excellent news for all of us! Thanks be to God. RevKK
I'm doing a series on grace--using mostly lectionary texts--and focusing this week on "The Scandal of Grace." It seems to me that Paul's statement "for while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" spells out the scandalaous nature of the gospel. Not only do want other folks to have to measure up before we accept them (and before God accepts them), we don't want to receive God's gift for ourselves without feeling as though we somehow have earned it (or at least are more deserving than your average person.) Anybody else working on the nature of grace?
Dave from IL
RevKK,
Your references to suffering made me remember the 60 Minutes piece done over the weekend by CBS.
It was in response to the outcry over the televised debacle of Kevorkian's murder of an ALS (I belive it was ALS, please forgive me if I'm wrong) patient.
Many who suffered from the same debilitating disease wrote in to CBS wondering why noone had interviewed them as to how they cope with their disease. So CBS took them up on it. One ALS victim after another, many in much worse shape than the Kevorkian victim, showed how they were persevering. It was an incredibly moving testament to gutsy people deciding that life was far too precious to decide to throw it away.
I hope you were able to see it. Simply powerful...
Rick in Va
Boasting in our suffering (v.3) is a scandalous contrast in itself. Even Job, who sought to bring God literally to court to argue the case against his lot, never considered what had befallen him a reason to boast in God's providence. The ancient Jews thought disaster & suffering were signs of God's disfavor. Many people still believe that today! Paul says here if we suffer for our faith in God, it's a blessing! It gives us the opportunity, by the way we comport ourselves in every kind of life circumstance, to be witnesses of God's justifying grace and the peace it brings to even the most besieged soul. Ken in WV
This text can be so dangerous if we focus on suffering as a way to build character. I had an experience with a woman who had a long history of spousal abuse. While she was hospitalized after a particularly sever beating at the hands of her husband, her pastor visited her. He quoted this passage as the reason that she should stay in her marriage. It would build character and she could become the vehical of her husband's reconciliation with her and with God. No grace ther, as far as I'm concerned. I was not working in the church at the time and knew she needed to be connected with a Christian community which could support her and her decision to save her life by leaving a relationship that was death dealing, not life giving. She needed to experience the "living water". It took months to build a relationship in which she could trust that she didn't have to build her characted through the suffering which had become a part of her life. Marie
Marie, You're on target. I struggle with this text, esp. as it relates to "unecessary" suffering. Which suffering is character building, and which isn't? Mark in Va.
To Dave from Il:
I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about Paul's statement "for while we were yet sinners Christ died for us". Too often we want to decide who qualifies to be in the Kingdom of God, without thinking that God accepts us without qualification. This also ties in with Rick's comments over on the discussion site about some people elevating some types of sins over others. I think we need to leave it to God to decide, rather than us acting in judgment.
Mary in Australia
While I agree with the sentiment that Christ died for all people without regard for their state of sin, I do hope those of you pounding on this message bother to read ALL of Romans. For example, in the 6th chapter, Paul goes on to teach that having been set from law, we should be careful not to become slaves to sin, choosing instead to be slaves of God's righteousness. Futher, in another book, 1 Corinthians, he commands the church to rid itself of a brother whose behavior is so scandalous it even offends the pagans! I commend our church (the UMC) for having the courage NOT to fall into the trap that says since all are saved by grace, all can be saved without ever repenting (turning away from) of their sins. Salvation is by faith, (ours in Christ and in God, Christ's in God and in us, God in us through Christ--the genitive can be either objective or subjective) but that is ONLY the beginning. The pursuit of righteousness must follow. Allowing brothers and sisters to remain in sin is the single most HATEFUL act one Christian can ever do to another. True, the problem for most of us is that we are usually too heavy-handed in dealing with sin. Still, Greg Dell broke his covenant with me, and with our church, regardless of anything else he may have done. That cannot be overlooked for as Paul says...this behavior scandalizes even the pagans.
God bless you, sandy@minister.com
I can't help but recall that the Greek word which we translate "stumbling block" is "scandalon," from which we naturally get "scandal."
I do not even know who Greg Dell is, but the "scandal" that some feel he imposed on them is just as "scandalous" as the cross is to all of us. Or, at least, should be.
Scandalously yours, in a scandalous Christ,
Rick in Canada, eh?
Re: suffering and character-building. Note that Paul is speaking about his own choice to rejoice in his sufferings. (He uses "we" perhaps as including those who minister with him, or perhaps as a literary "we") -- at any rate, he does not say you must or you should our you ought to rejoice...but because Paul knows that God is faithful, he will trust that God will allow the sufferings he endures to build character -- the character that comes from standing for one's own convictions, from trust in God's goodness and provision. In the case of Marie's friend, I agree that the pastor in question used the scripture inordinately and out of context. However, I still believe that whatever the suffering we must endure, we can choose how we will respond to it. That doesn't mean that the suffering in question is righteous or just or meaningful, only that God will help us to grow in it or in spite of it because of grace. I really like that about our God! He not only changes water into wine, he can change what "Satan" meant for evil into something that will help us grow if we let him. RevKK
I think I'm going to use the line "...indeed, rarely wil anyone die for a righteous person...." in context of course, and talk about the things we are willing to put ourselves on the line for, and how often we are willing to speak out, risk, etc. for small and unworthy things, and unwilling to stand up for the biggest and most substantial things.
Maybe title it something like "things to die for, things to live for" or something. Anyone taking a similar direction? Jennifer
Rick in Canada: FYI GREG DELL The Rev. Greg Dell, pastor of Broadway United Methodist Church in Chicago, has been formally charged with disobedience to the order and discipline of the denomination after performing a same-sex union ceremony last September. A church trial will begin March 25 at First United Methodist Church in Downers Grove, Ill
By the way, the "porch" illustration regarding the various ways one experiences grace originated with John Wesley, I believe...KK
Regarding the difficulty that comes in trying to understand these tedious legalese verses by Paul, I heard a wonderful story told by the widow of Baptist theologian Dale Moody. One night at dinner, a young was quoting scripture from Romans ( particularly from the 7th chapter)and questioning Professor Moody about the confusing, difficult to understand theology of Romans. After listening as she went on and on, the dialogue paused for Dr. Moody's answer. Though he was not known for pithy remarks, he answered the questions with one phrase: "Miss, I think you're stuck in chapter 7...and it's time you start living in Chapter 8." So often we forget to read "what comes before" and "what comes after". Only in doing so are we able to interpret the spirit of the Word. As an ORDAINED SOUTHERN BAPTIST WOMAN MINISTER (yes, be afraid, be very afraid) I'll be preaching from this passage along with the Gospel. Perfect for International Day of Women as far as I'm concerned. MerainKY
God bless you, MerainKy. Congratulations for being here (I live in western KY myself). I look forward to the day when all Christians become zealous in the ordination of women. "For I am not afraid..."
sandy@minister.com