I just read contributions from "Previous discussion" on this passage, and I'm intrigued by what Peter in CA was planning, with the wallet-sized card to "certify" parishioners as "a Child of God." I don't get here every week, but if you're still out there Peter in CA, I'd be interested in hearing how that went, and whether you plan to do it again this time around. --JLGentle@aol.com
wow, no fairy tail ever topped that.
Hi - What's happened to the discussions of late. People don't seem to be contributing to the extent they did in past years.
I have been reading discussions on this site for a couple of years and have been extremely motivated and inspired. My sermons were far richer thanks to all of you.
One good thing - it has at least made me add to the discussion.
Re : Jesus' baptism - I was thinking of focusing on the importance of ritual in our lives and how ritual works unconsciously and can carry us through difficult times.
RR England
Hi - What's happened to the discussions of late. People don't seem to be contributing to the extent they did in past years.
I have been reading discussions on this site for a couple of years and have been extremely motivated and inspired. My sermons were far richer thanks to all of you.
One good thing - it has at least made me add to the discussion.
Re : Jesus' baptism - I was thinking of focusing on the importance of ritual in our lives and how ritual works unconsciously and can carry us through difficult times.
RR England
Somebody asked for this one for Epiphany but since I'm in California and write my sermon on Saturday night, nobody would have seen it if I posted then.
"Three wise women would have... asked directions, arrived on time, helped deliver the baby, cleaned the stable, made a casserole, brought practical gifts and there would be peace on earth.
I also got a Christmas card that shows a manger scene with Mary saying "Diapers, receiving blankets, and an infant mule seat! Now those I can use!" The caption under the picture says "Fortunately, three wise women came by later."
oops, forgot to sign the women"s persepctive on Epiphany.
Ruth in CA
On the subject of "What if the Three Wise Men had been Three Wise Women?"
I saw one that was an animated file.
It had the stuff I had already seen before....
"They would have asked directions,
Arrived on time,
helped deliver the baby,
Cleaned the stable,
brought practical gifts,
and brought a casserole."
....and then it had said,
"And on the way home they would have said,
'Did you see the sandals Mary was wearing with that gown?'
'And that baby doesn't look anything like Joseph.'
'That donkey has seen better days too.'
'I hear Joseph doesn't even have a job.'
'That little drummer boy can beat my drum anytine.'
'Want to bet on how long before you get your casserole dish back?'
'Mary, a virgin? My eye! I knew her in high school.'
crystal
LOL Too true!
one year I did a renewal of our Baptismal vow service taken from the Methodist book of worship. I expected two or three would come forward. at the close of the service 27 people came forward. My Lay Leader said he had no intention of comming but all of a sudden he found himself in line and was glad he did. We didn't rebaptize anyone but they held their hands over the baptismal faunt and I put the water on their hands and said to each one as they came remember the waters of your baptism and stir up the gift of God that is within you. The next year we had 100% come forward so I have done this every year since thought it might help.
Harold in Alabama
What do think Jesus meant by the phrase,"to fufill all righteousness"? Is there a prophesy that predicts Messiah will be baptised? And the phrase,"Let it be so now..." Should Now be emphasized? Would things be different later? Lots of questions to get me going. tom in TN(USA)
I feel the way John does. I need to be baptised by Jesus. I am so short of him, and yet he comes to me - to use me to bring Him to others. To offer His baptism. To offer His presence at times of loss, His encouragement, etc. I have never really thought about it like this before.
I had a baptism yesterday, and once again, as with so many of the adults, tears were streaming down her face. She said, "i haven't cried in 12 years."
If only we could stay so connected, so in touch with the beloved son.
May God use us all in our preaching this 2002.
rachel
be sure to check out a short story by Flannery O'Connor called "The River'". Something about what happens after Baptism "You'll be different. You'll matter!"
About a year ago my grandmother died at the ripe old age of 93. Something prior to her death, I realized that my continuity with my past was about to be gone (my father had passed away 10 years ago). I always felt the strongest family ties with my father’s side and claimed my sense of identity through them. I began to ask questions about my genealogy… about my grandmother’s family history and about my great grandfather (whose last name was Fahling) whom I remember well from my childhood.
As I questioned my mother about the family history on my father’s side, she indicated to me that my great grandfather’s real last name is unknown. It seems that he left the old country and came to the New World as a waif, his journey paid for by a farmer with the name of Fahling. Upon crossing the waters of the Atlantic, my great grandfather took up residency with this farmer, labored on his land and even took upon himself his sponsor’s name and identity and became part of the Fahling family even receiving a share in the inheritance of the family farm.
At first I was disappointed with the loss of a history, but then I realized that in many respects this is the meaning of our baptisms. Crossing the waters we take on different residency, ordained labors, and new identities and begin a new history. We become an integral part of the family of God through sharing in the baptism of Christ who sponsors and pays for our journey.
Pr del in IA
Fred Craddock use to encourage us to do a fresh reading of the gospel with new eyes as if we did not already know anything about it or already have assumptions about it. It strikes me that there is some sort of assumption about a different status between baptizer and baptizee, as if the one doing the baptizing is supposed to be greater or more righteous. Is this necessarily true?
Somehow it is hard to imagine Jesus or John worried about status and yet it is hard not to feel like that is some concern that we can't help including in the story.
Have you ever experienced a church service and felt like the pharasees were alive and well and looking down on others as sinners through the very words of our rituals? Manzel
A really cool illustration:
Back when the telegraph was the fastest means of long-distance communication, there was a story, perhaps apocryphal, about a young man who applied for a job as a Morse code operator. Answering an ad in the newspaper, he went to the address that was listed. When he arrived, he entered a large, noisy office. In the background a telegraph clacked away. A sign on the receptionist's counter instructed job applicants to fill out a form and wait until they were summoned to enter the inner office.
The young man completed his form and sat down with seven other waiting applicants. After a few minutes, the young man stood up, crossed the room to the door of the inner office, and walked right in. Naturally the other applicants perked up, wondering what was going on. Why had this man been so bold? They muttered among themselves that they hadn't heard any summons yet. They took more than a little satisfaction in assuming the young man who went into the office would be reprimanded for his presumption and summarily disqualified for the job.
Within a few minutes the young man emerged from the inner office escorted by the interviewer, who announced to the other applicants, "Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming, but the job has been filled by this young man."
The other applicants began grumbling to each other, and then one spoke up, "Wait a minute--I don't understand. He was the last one to come in, and we never even got a chance to be interviewed. Yet he got the job. That's not fair."
The employer responded, "All the time you've been sitting here, the telegraph has been ticking out the following message in Morse code: If you understand this message, then come right in. The job is yours.' None of you heard it or understood it. This young man did. So the job is his."
A person’s entire livelihood, indeed their life, depends upon thier ability to discern the meaning of these words: "You are my Child [Son], whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Pr. del in IA
Pr del in IA: Thank you for your contribution. What a beautiful way to interpret baptism!
Yesterday, I had planned to use the joke about the 3 wise women, but once I had gotten started it totally left my frame of mind. We did the Wesley Covenant Service, reaffirmation of our baptism with communion. I wish I had read ahead and realized that the pericope of The Baptism of Jesus was for the 13th! That is a great idea - having folks come forward to have the water run over their hands. The baptismal font was near the station for communion, and I invited folks following their partaking of the elements to dip their fingers/hands in the water to remember... I was too busy serving communion to know if anyone did.
Looking forward to the comments and contributions this week. I, too, have wondered where some of the contributors have gone, and miss them. Especially am missing Rick from Va, and wish he would come back. Does anyone have his email to invite him?
Betty in NY
One more awesome illustration (then I will stop...sorry to use so much space this week)
The gift is the unconditional love and pressure of God in our lives. Dr. Fred Craddock, a renowned teacher and preacher told this story:
Long ago, he once met a man in a Southern restaurant and when the man heard that Dr. Craddock was a minister he began telling him about his misfortunate childhood.
The man had been an illegitimate child who felt shunned by his peers and looked down upon by many people in the small town in which he lived. He was a rejected and lonely boy.
One day, he heard of a new minister in town and he decided to go to the church where this man was preaching. As he listened, he was captivated by what he heard. The preacher’s sermon was so moving that the boy sat in contemplation for a while, even after the benediction. When he started to leave, his shyness compelled him to attempt to by-pass the preacher without shaking hands.
But suddenly, as he came near the to the tall man, he felt a strong hand on his shoulder. Compelled to look up, he saw the preacher’s smiling face. Then he heard the preacher say, “What’s your name, boy? Whose son are you?”
Before the lad could answer, the pastor continued, “I know who you are. I know who your family is. There’s a distinct family resemblance. Why, you’re the son of God!”
Then the loving preacher put his long arm around the boy and pointed him to the door and said affirmatively, “Now go and claim your inheritance.”
When the man finished telling his story, he said to Dr. Craddock, “You know, mister, those words changed my life.” Then he got up and left.
Dr. Craddock was so fascinated by the experience that he asked the waitress who the man was. She answered, “That was Ben Hooper, two-term governor of Tennessee.”
Who can measure the power of a few well-chosen words spoken in love?
Pr. del in IA
Yesterday I saw and heard a tv evangelist preach on the sin of the misuse of the word "god". He carried on about how blasphemers would never get to heaven and about how foul and black hearted was anyone who used such language. He pretended to be a champion fighting sin, yet I felt really embarrased by what he was doing in the name of the Lord.
Baptism sometimes seems like one of those times when we seem obsessed with a need to wash away othe peoples's sins. Is this what Jesus baptism was about? Is there a more positive meaning?
Would it be fair to say that this story about Jesus baptism is more about identity, a life commitment to God, and an affirmation of one's belonging to the household of God than the story is about washing away sin?
Would it be fair to say that this story about Jesus baptism is more about identity, a life commitment to God, and an affirmation of one's belonging to the household of God than the story is about washing away sin?
There are several thoughts on Jesus being Baptised. 1. Jesus was marking the end of one erra of his life and beginning his ministry.
2. Jesus identifying with those he came to save
3. That Jesus was being baptised not for his sin but our sins he would bare on the cross.
I am in the process of writing a manuscript called the "Three Baptisms of the Christian Faith". Baptism by the church with water which is the outward sign of our inward cleaning. Baptism of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit baptises us with the blood of Jesus at Conversion. and Baptism with the holy Spitit done by Jesus. which is to give us the power to witness and be obedient children of the Father.
Harold in Alabama
I always thought about the baptism of Jesus as an act of submission to the will of his father. It was turning his life completely over to him. We have two testimonies here. We hve the testimony of John the Baptist, "I need to be baptized by you." And we have the testimony of God, "This in my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased." PH in OH
To contribute some of the earlier posts: I, too, have given cards out in the past - I just used clear Contact paper to laminate a picture of a shell (Abingdon clip art, multiplied 12 times on the page) with the caption, "Remember, and be grateful." They were about 2" x 1 1/2" so folks could put them in their pockets a la "the cross in my pocket." One thing, in doing the reaffirmation of the baptismal covenant, in my last church, there were many who were not yet baptized. So, when I got to the part, "Remember your baptism and be grateful," I added, "If you haven't received the sacrament of baptism, then anticipate your baptism with wonder." I made extra-clear that this is not the SACRAMENT. In order to avoid any confusion, I just picked up some water and let it run back into the font so it made a nice sound.
I do not do re-baptism: "ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins." We may break our side of the covenant, but God doesn't break his.
As to how to preach, I can't thank Pr enough!!! Also, rachel - I think this is an attitude our congregants relate to - how many times has a perfectly capable person offered you the excuse, "I don't know how to do that!" when you asked him/her to do something. We get almost MIRED in our humility, not often remembering Jesus' great commission in Mt 28:19 - go and make disciples and baptize them. Would he commission us if we were incapable (and, on the darker side of the issue, is an attitude that clergy are hired to do ministry for laypeople).
That the actual sacrament is reserved in most Christian traditions for ordained clergy to administer confuses the issue further: how DOES a layperson baptize someone, anyhow? They're "not allowed," or do not possess "the qualities" ordination supposedly affords.
OK, I'll stop rambling now. I'm just puzzling over how to preach this.
Sally in GA
1) Is baptism a paradigm of "birth" and/or "new birth" as one makes ritual passage way into the Covenant, and the Covenant's dawning Kingdom, fulfilling the "promises" of God? Is this not the spiritual rebirth of Jesus, the Rabbi coming "after" John as a "follower" (vs 11); thus making his pathway to the initiation of the inclusive Year of Jubilee and the suffering-servant ministry to which he is called? Is this rite of passage not essential for "heaven to be opened"? Is this not only Jesus' rite of passage but the rite of passage for all today who would respond to the contemporary "Cost of Discipleship" (especially as spelled out by Bonhoeffer), and would respond with Peter "Thou art the Christ", and thus receive the "keys to the kingdom"? Does not the rite of Jesus' passage to Covenant Kingdom birth, as well as our own, finally lead to Matthew 25:31 ff)?
2) Was "baptism" originally a rite Jews used to purify the gentile convert? If so, does the Jew who now seeks "baptism" identify his "repentance" as a "turn-around" from the exclusive view of being the "priviledged" chosen people of God (ie, the people of God chosen/elected/predestined for priviledge) to the inclusive vision of being chosen by God for "suffering servant" ("wounded healer") service? If so, then does the "turn-around" in repentance through "baptism" connect the Jew to a new transcendent Kingdom "inclusive" of Magi, Persians, Gentiles, etc...."Outsiders" not only beyond Jewish boundaries as in the Gentile but also included in the Transcendent Kingdom are "outsiders" within Judism itself such as blind lame, deaf, hungry, imprisoned, widow, orphan...the suffering "throw-aways" of humanity?
3) Does "baptism" figure-out and/or recapitulate (relive as in anamnesis) the history of the Covenant people of God? The name "Moses" means "drawn forth" out of the waters? Was not Pharoh of old like the new Herod in the killing of the young male children? Does "baptism" figure-out the destiny of Moses as he steps into the waters of the Death Sea, and the waters part, as he leads the Hebrew children into the wilderness in quest of the promised land? Does not the rite of baptism figure-out the covenant story of Noah. When the Jew prays today about the waters of the Death Sea parting, does he/she not pray as if it is "their" feet in the here and now that are lifted out of the waters rather than just the fathers of old?
4) Is baptism not a rite passage way into new reciprocal covenant-making with YHWH? in such a way that the "old" covenant stories/history comes a live in the kairos of this moment through anamnesis?
5) Is not "heaven opened" the outcome not only for Jesus but for "faith" hearers of the Word? "This is the Word of God for the people of God! Thanks be to God?
6) Does not the quote from Isaiah imply the realization of the Suffering Servant as being the essence of the Son of God?
7) Is not the Year of the Jubilee implied as the essence of the dawning (near) Kingdom of God, proclaimed by John and then by Jesus, such that if one is to enter they must "repent", particularly of the egotistical self-righteousness practiced in the inauthentic religiousity of living the illusion of being the chosen/elected/predistined to "priviledge" children of God, as opposed to stable birth of a poverty king and/or suffering servant, and/or one to whom gentile/foreigner, Persian, Magi come with gifts recognizing the true identity and destiny of the Messiah born in the outback gutter?
(PaideiaSCO wrestling with some of Lectionary groups questions (particularly Jack) in reflective meditation while north ga mts trees are iced over)
Tom in TN(USA) asked "What do think Jesus meant by the phrase, 'to fufill all righteousness'?"
The New Interpreter's Bible commentary has something to say about that...
"Both righteousness and fulfillment are key Matthean theological themes. _Righteousness_ here means, as often elsewhere, doing the revealed will of God. Here, _fulfill_ seems to mean simply "do, perform," and the meaning is that is is necessary for both John and Jesus to do God's will, which includes the baptims of Jesus. The plural _us_ links John and Jesus together as partners in carrying out God's saving plan." Vol. VIII, page 160
Blessings, Eric in KS
Folks are occasionally troubled by Jesus' baptism by John. "Why," they ask, "does Jesus need to undergo a 'baptism of repentence' when he is the one 'without sin'? What does have to repent of?"
Let's remember that the Greek word used in the N.T. is metanoia, meaning a change of mind, a change of direction. We have no idea what the past 20-30 years of Jesus's life have been like; where he's been; what he's been doing. Whatever it was (and I don't mean to suggest it was in any way "sinful"), he has now chosen to turn from it, change directions, and turn toward the Gospel mission. What is important is not what Jesus is turning from, but what Jesus is turning towards ... he is, as he tells John, turning toward the fulfillment of righteousness, toward the doing of God's will.
Blessings, Eric in KS
A response to Manzel's thought about an assumed difference between the baptized and the baptizer. Here is an insight - Baptism is not something we do -it is something we claim God does. In baptism we are claiming God's promise of love for the baptized, and we are making our vow or promise of support and fellowship. So, the one baptizing has no elevated status - in fact, the institutional status or office of the one baptizing is quite meaningless, as far as God's promise is concerned. Don't we claim that any christian can baptize a person in a crisis - as at a time of impending death? Perhaps that's what John the baptizer learned that day at the Jordan - yes indeed, he could baptize - in God's name, not his own. Jim in ct.
In response to the question -"Where have all of the contributors to this page gone?"
I used to stop in here every morning and read the wrangling and debating of honest, searching souls.
I generally stop here now once or twice a week because I have witnessed the that conservative and the prophetic are not welcome here.
I need a liberal voice to balance my conservative tendencies and so I seek it out. Unfortunately most of the liberals that frequent this page do not want a balanced approach and quickly resort to name calling and the expelling the sister or brother that they can not control.
Thus we experience a more homogeneous and less lively group of preachers contributing here.
Any thoughts on this view?
Pastor Will in the High Mountains
In response to the question -"Where have all of the contributors to this page gone?"
I used to stop in here every morning and read the wrangling and debating of honest, searching souls.
I generally stop here now once or twice a week because I have witnessed the that conservative and the prophetic are not welcome here.
I need a liberal voice to balance my conservative tendencies and so I seek it out. Unfortunately most of the liberals that frequent this page do not want a balanced approach and quickly resort to name calling and the expelling the sister or brother that they can not control.
Thus we experience a more homogeneous and less lively group of preachers contributing here.
Any thoughts on this view?
Pastor Will in the High Mountains
Good posts already. I'm going to need some help this week, so where else to come but other Desperate Preachers?
I'm titling my sermon "Did Jesus Need to be Baptized?" The answer, as far as I've thought, is "no" and "yes."
"No" in the sense that he was sinless, he did not need to have his sins washed away.
"Yes" in the sense that baptism (adult) is also our commitment to God and a sign of our willingness to submit ourselves to God's will -- even if it means death on a cross. Infant baptism is the parents' commitment to teach the child the way that leads to life eternal -- submission to God's will for our lives.
I think we see baptism as "necessary" when we want our sins forgiven, but God does that for us. Our sins are not magically forgiven when we are baptized, or confirmed. But baptism and/or confirmation are our outward statements that we are willing to accept God's claim on our lives.
Do you see where I'm going with this? Do you see the pitfalls of it? I don't want to denigrate the sacrament -- it is too important. But, I don't want people to think baptism is some sort of magic that the preacher performs, and voila! There is the need for commitment here, too.
Any suggestions, helps?
Pr del in IA -- thanks for the illustrations, they are GRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!
RevJan
Thus spake Pastor Will in the High Mountains: "Unfortunately most of the liberals that frequent this page do not want a balanced approach and quickly resort to name calling and the expelling the sister or brother that they can not control."
Although this really should be dealt with on the discussion pages....
As one of the so-called "liberals" I would note that the only "name-calling" and rude behaviour I have witnessed (during about a year of being a member of this community) was by a self-styled "conservative", i.e., the now-absent Rick in VA.
I won't say another word on this subject on this page ... as I said, this should be taken to the discussion pages.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I'm interested in the discussion on the "fulfillment of righteousness," and looked up righteousness in INTERPRETER'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE, Supplementary Volume. The article is titled "Righteousness In the NT," and actually is more focused on how Paul uses it, (according to several different theologians). Some kernels of what I gleaned that are speaking to me have to do with (1)"the rightful power with which God makes God's cause to triumph in a world which has fallen away...and which is yet as God's creation, God's inviolable possession." (2) The character of righteousness as "gift." (3) The contrast that Matthew uses "righteousness" in an ethical sense while in Romans it's about "God's redemptive faithfulness in forgiving sins." and (4) that "righteousness denotes a relationship established by the pronouncement of the judgment." My conclusions, then, have to do with the "fulfillment of righteousness" being about Jesus's baptism being part of God's redemptive activity in the world. In my mind, it fits nicely--is very congruent--with the Isaiah passage and the gentleness with which God seeks to establish justice in the world, without breaking bruised reeds or quenching dimly burning wicks, but by taking us by the hand as a covenant & light to the people.
I'm interested in others' thoughts about the fulfillment of righteousness. I'm also intrigued by the focus someone brought on the heavens being opened, and how others are thinking about that.
Grace and peace, Janice in Ks
Sorry Eric - your response sort of proved Pastor Will right.
Pastor Will - I'm a liberal and very happy to continue reading all the contributions that are made here. Even if I don't agree with them all I can still learn from them and find them stimulating. Sometimes just one word is enough to set me off in the right direction.
Thanks for all the contributions so far, ideas are now buzzing.
RR England
Re: Fulfillment of Righteousness
In the Book Baptism in the New Testament theologian Oscar Cullam points out that:
"At the moment of his Baptism, Jesus received the commission to undertake the role of the suffering servant of God, who takes on himself the sins of the people. Other Jews came to the Jordan to be baptized by John for their own sins. Jesus, on the contrary, at the very moment when he was baptized like other people, hears a voice from heaven which fundamentally declares, "you are baptized not for your own sins, but for those of the whole people. For you are the one of whom Isaiah prophesies that must suffer representatively for the sins of the people." This means that Jesus is baptized in view of his coming death, which effects forgiveness of sins for all. For this reason, Jesus must unite himself in solidarity with his whole people and go down himself to the Jordan that all righteousness might be fulfilled... The baptism of Jesus is related to righteousness- not only his own, but that of the whole people"- us!"
Pr. del in IA
Long time desperate preacher, first time contributor. I appreciate this site and many times it has been a huge help early on Sunday morning.
I am thinking about tackling John's effort to prevent Jesus from receiving baptism. I think I might play on the idea of how we seek to prevent our baptism from "being so." How many of our parishoners still believe at the most basic level of their beings that baptism wasn't meant for them, but for someone better than them. Last week I focused on the "other way or road" taken by the magi and how we could choose to do the same. When we think of baptism as "choosing another way" as Eric mentioned, then maybe we can preach to our people about the choices they will make in allowing their baptim to "be so now."
In regards to the issue of who's been naughty and who's been nice in their discussions on this site, maybe we should take a lesson from the recovery community and say its the preaching not the personalities that matter.
Wesley in NH
Another Thought on the Feast of the Epiphany and the Magi:
I awoke this morning with the thought that the Wise Men (three of them) represented the strangers who approached Abraham and Sarah to announce that she was going to bear a child.
They return to celebrate the birth of new life. Indeed it is this "Isaac" who will carry his own wood to calvary and is the sacrifice.
Has anyone ever had such a strange thought, have you come across this idea anywhere? Or is this aging preacher loosing his mind?
tom in ga
I find this passage challenging and dread it year after year...I know that I must have heard yearly sermons on the subject over and over again, and yet for the life of me can never remember anything profound or significant about the message...that tells me that it is confusing to preach about and that too many people preaching it make it too complicated and too theological and too detailed... as a lay preacher I want to avoid this...everyone who has currently contributed (other than the jokers) are really going way too deep, too verbal, too literal for the average listener, however well educated and however high the level of biblical literacy...I came across something interesting that I am wondering if anyone else is sure about: that the term "beloved" is the same word for "David"... This led me to consider Jesus as "the new David"... in this context Jesus is being set apart from the prophets (John would be a prophet) who proclaim God's message or coming judgment or coming acts with "the king", one who comes to rule the people...as I went in this direction it struck me that the "baptism" (and dove) was an act of "annoiting" or"commissioning"...Jesus was coming of age and now accepting the mantle to be placed on his shoulders...in this sense he was fulfilling righteousness by hearing and acquiescing to his God-given call...I have not fleshed these ideas out completely but wanted to know how others felt about them...TEA
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Jim in ct. Perhaps John has been so caught up in his ranting and raving about "the one" who comes after him, that when he turns around and sees Jesus standing before him, awaiting a dunking, John is caught off guard. He realizes he's been so caught up in the message, that he's forgotten about the original messenger. Now he feels his pride and arrogance laid bare, and knows he is no more worthy than those whom he has called a "brood of vipers." In an instant he has lost touch with is calling and anointing, and just wants to fade into the background. But Jesus does not let him off the hook. John's calling is to baptize, but the authority to do so, and the grace given through baptism comes from God, not John. Jesus does not argue John's assertion that he needs Jesus' ministry, nor that Jesus is higher in authority and righteousness. He only says, "it must be done."
If the efficacy of baptism depended on John, then he should never have presumed to have baptized ANYONE! Let alone Jesus. But since righteousness comes from God, John was simply the conduit through which God's affirmation of Jesus was given. If the efficacy of baptism depends on my righteousness, there are a number of souls wandering around this planet who are in need of a new sprinkling. But God just uses me, a cracked, leaky pot, to pour God's love and grace on open and receptive souls. Perhaps Jesus underwent baptism for that reason, to remind us that it is God in our actions, not our actions themselves, that do the work. If John could minister to one "of whom I am not worthy to remove his sandals," then you and I, and every Christian, can go out and announce the Kingdom to our fellow sinners!
One last thing, then I'm done: My maternal grandparents came to the Lord after my mom and aunt were full grown, a few years before my grandfather died. Many years later, as my aunt lay on her bed, dying of cancer, Mom became very concerned that her sister had never been baptized. She called my dad, an episcopal priest, who told her that she should baptize Aunt Mary. "Just ask her if she loves the Lord," Dad said, "and if she says ‘yes' then baptize her." Mom asked, Mary said "yes," and Mom baptized her. God's grace is not confined to an office, an ordained order or to those who somehow manage to toe a moral and theological line. God's grace flows through those who love God and hunger to do God's will.
thanks for taking the time! Pastor Andy, Ionia NY
Two points: 1. I found two quotes in the CATENA AUREA (link to it at THE TEXT THIS WEEK) that were enlightening concerning why Jesus came to be baptized:
Remig.: The office to be performed; "that He might be baptized of him;" not baptism to the remission of sins, but to leave the water sanctified for those after to be baptized.
Pseudo-Chrys.: He comes to baptism, that He who has taken upon Him human nature, may be found to have fulfilled the whole mystery of that nature; not that He is Himself a sinner, but He has taken on Him a nature that is sinful. And therefore though He needed not baptism Himself, yet the carnal nature in others needed it.
I think these comments from ancient church fathers help us understand why Jesus felt the need to be baptized.
Second: A story that Heather Elkins (Drew Theological School Faculty & a member of our WV Annual Conference) told at a Conference Bible Study: She was leading a ministers’ retreat in another conference. The exercise given was for the participants to name a biblical character they most closely ID’d with. The responses were the usual mix of biblical heroes and holy ones until one young pastor responded, “The only name I could think of was ‘worthless,’ because that’s what my father always called me and said of me.” And he began to weep.
Heather reports that she and the others were at a loss for what to do, until one old, wise District Superintendent stood before the young man, put his hands on his shoulders, and said to him, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Much more than a cleansing from sin (which the blood of Christ has already done), Christian baptism is our initiation into the family of God. That is another important component of a sacrament. It tells us/reminds us who we are. And we are precious children in God’s eyes. Ken in WV
There have been many inspiring contributions this week. What has stirred my the most is the thought that we do not know anything about Jesus previous 30 years. It does not matter. Jesus Baptism was out of God's plan (righteousness - God right wising, setting the world right)
The same thougt is that is does not matter what our past has been. What matters is that our Baptims is God's claim upon our lives, he will is to put our lives right. Here is my message
Again, thank your for the great illustrations.
Grace, Mike in Texas
Whoever posted the reference to The River by Flannery O'Connor, do you have more to share about it? I don't have that particular story in my O'Connor book, but it sounds like a good one. Also, in Jesus' response to John questioning why he should baptize him, I read that the Greek is "Let it happen!" Jesus seems to imply that he needs to now get on with his commission, his call, so let it happen! Something for us all to remember as we affirm our baptisms every day--to get on with our ministry and let it happen. GB in MI
I had lunch today with a neighboring pastor who's been in his place for about 6 years. Membership has more than doubled from 375 to over 800; the budget has almost tripled from from $135K per year to $375K per year; the clergy staff has gone from one (him) to four (an associate priest plus two ordained deacons). Sunday School membership has skyrocketed (close to 200 kids on a Sunday).
In face of this he finds himself under attack as "fiscally irresponsible" because he wants to pay two musicians who play at their contemporary "jazz-style" service and a part-time D.R.E. -- total amount around $6K, less than 2% of this year's budget. What, say his detractors, should be done with this large amount of cash? Put it in a savings account.....
I relate all this because as we were talking about his situation I flashed on something a former spiritual director used to ask me when I would complain about the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" that seem to get aimed at us clergy types. This spiritual director (a Jesuit)would ask me, "How did 'they' treat Jesus? Should you expect that 'they' will treat you any differently?"
As we talked more, especially about the baptisms we have planned for the coming Sunday, it occurred to me that being baptised into the Christian life is no great thing from the world's perspective. We are baptising these folks (in my case, one infant and two adults) into a life promised to be filled with the same sorts of barbs my colleague is now facing. Do your best, even show great results, and the "world" (frequently in the guise of well-meaning church members) is going to come after you! In our discussion of the Holy Innocents the point was made that actions of Good incite reactions by Evil. Baptism is an act of Good; the life the baptised are called to lead is a life of such actions of Good. "The world, the flesh, and the devil" are going to react. Oughtn't we to warn those about to be baptised of what they are going to face?
And speaking of that ... why don't we better warn those about to be ordained????
Just some musings after an interesting, but painful, lunch with a friend....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Ken in WV -- Thanks for the story of the "worthless" young Elder! That is a definite "user" this week.... I am baptizing two young women (21 and 25) whose father is at death's door with Glioblastoma Type IV (primary-cite brain cancer). He was in church last Sunday and was obviously unable to take care of himself. I had spent the previous Friday morning with the family and I can tell you that these girls are feeling pretty beat-up by life and pretty "worthless" as they impotently face their father's death. Thanks to you and to that "wise, old D.S." for wonderful tale.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I've recently begun ministry with a Norwegian Lutheran congregation. Since I don't know much about Norwegians aside from Garrison Keillor, this should prove an adventure. What I've discovered in a short time is that there isn't much memory of the Norwegian language anymore - a few lines from a few prayers by some of the older members and that is it.In some ways its very sad that the language and traditions are lost, yet that's what happens when you "go across the water" you receive a new identity. I'm playing with the image of immigrants coming (and still coming) across the water to be something new, because there was something lacking in where they were. How have we left "lackland" behind once we come across the Baptismal waters? Lisa in IL
Dear Friends....I don't contribute as much because I am so busy that sometimes my thoughts don't even come together until Saturday..and that often is too late to contribute. But this time, I have lots of thoughts early on.
3 days ago, the High School located 1 block from my church burned to the ground, displacing 1100 High School Students. There are about 5 main-line churches in the area..and although I was "on vacation", I met with the other pastors and we all decided to reach out to the school district and indeed, our community, which is in crisis, with an offer of support...temporary use of our buildings in any way the school could use them.
We have a particularly active and "possessive" crew in our church that maintains the facilities. And although I knew they might be a bit possessive, I sent out feelers to our session who assured me that we really had no alternative but to reach out....and offer our help to the school.
To make a long story short, it appeared as though the school would be needing the very area of our church that the "crew" did not want to give up..in fact had told me specifically they would not give up....the dining area and the kitchen (gasp...:)
Well, as "luck" would have it....that is what it looked like the school was going to ask us to use. So.....pastorally, I approached the "kitchen lady" and told her that although I knew how she felt, that I truly believed that God might be telling all of us..that it was time to "let go"....and "let God"....use the facility as He saw fit. She agreed, although I am sure it was the hardest thing she EVER had to do around the church....
The school officials came in......we met with all of the pastors in town....and lo and behold! All they wanted from us was the two rooms that the kitchen lady had already decided was O.K. for us to offer......but they would be used by the drug and alcohol program of the high school....
The "kitchen" lady was ecstatic that they did not want her kitchen......but before I could get into church today to let people know what was going on... these people were already "hiding" the crosses so they would not be stolen by this element....(drugies and alcoholic kids)
Jesus' baptism to me.....means that He, although without sin, was willing to TOTALLY SUBMIT HIMSELF UNTO DEATH ON A CROSS, in order to do the will of the Father.....
Then I heard a wonderful illustration via free illustrations that come to me each week from SermonIllustrations.com....about the "unbaptized arm", a story telling how the czar of Russia's 500 soldiers, in order to be baptized, hung on to their swords, lifting them out of the water while the rest of their bodies were emersed. How like my church!!!! "Lord, I will follow you if it doesen't mean giving up my kitchen...Lord I will follow you...if it doesn't mean losing my crosses in the front hallway....Lord I will follow you if it doesn't mean giving up a tithe, or a golf Sunday, etc...etc...."
I think my congregation needs to remember their baptism.....I think that my congreagation needs to look out the back window and see the millions of dollars lost to our community.....and compare that to the measly couple of hundred dollars we might "lose" to the drug and alcohol kids....I think we all need to remember our baptisms...and if we truly DO intend to follow Jesus, to completely give up our rights and our claims to anything. Let God pick the rooms He needs.....and may God bless us all in the process....
Jude in Wash
God we carry the name of your children when we call ourselves “Christian”, but often we are not sure if we truly are your beloved. And when we are not sure of our place within your family of love, we often find ourselves hurting others because of false pride and lack of confidence. Instead of showing the way to the healing waters of your Spirit when we are discouraged ourselves, we become stumbling blocks and are unable to be signs of joy, hope and love for others. We become discouraged with our own lives and mistakenly believe that others have it better. Forgive us when we doubt that we are indeed your
Beloved and that our life is a gift from you. Also forgive us when we try to exclude others from your family of loved ones. Guide us this week that we may each day remember your love and show us how to made the best of our own lives and to become the living water of love, hope and joy to others. AMEN
This is the prayer I wrote for our service this weeI find myself asking who is the beloved? God called Jesus Beloved, but are we not also the Beloved Children of God? I think we forget that sometimes.
For me knowing that I too am God's Beloved empowers me to live my life closer to the "water". To take seriously my baptismal vows. When I know that I am loved, I am so much more able to be all I was created to be. I think that may be true for the people in my pews. My prayer is that the reminder that they too are God's beloved will encourage them along their way of faith.
We also are having a baptism this Sunday. It is a young boy who lost one of his best friends last year by drowning. He was a family member of some of my parishioners. It was a sad and tragic event.I did not do the funeral, but the great grandparents from my congregation (at whos summer retreat the drowning occured) were having trouble going back to the site. I offered to do a service out there for them to "claim back the place" For Brandon would not want his death to keep the family away. After I was there I got the "inspired" idea to use the lake water in which Brandon died to sprinkle on those attending reminding them of their Baptism. It was the healing ritual that helped the family regroup and move on with their live. It was truely an ispiration for God.
I think I have shared this here before, but it seemed to fit so well and with Brandons friend inquiring about baptism because of Brandons death it brought it all back to me. Ministry is a mysterious and awesome thing!! Bless all of you as you interpet the ancient word into the contemporary word for the people of today!!
jmj in WI
opps - it was an inspiration FROM God, not for God.
jmj in WI
TEA you said David = beloved
I think that is the point that is what God says to each of us when he claims us as his child through our baptism
when we baptize, we give the 'Christian Name' and we call that person by name [child of God] until they answer, and are confirmed as members of the household of faith. At birth we give a child his/her name, and call them by that name until they realize, 'hey, that means me!' and answer to it. Then as family we tell them what the family name means, and try to challenge and help them to live up to that name. weldiger in wnc
Jude in Wash- Sorry about your community crisis. Good you have the perspective to see it as opportunity for ministry and God bless you. Isn't this an illustration of the church being the servant (Isaiah42) -a light to the nations, and the identity we get in baptism.
AEA
I found the following story by recently deceased Dave Thomas, Wendy's founder, in "The Entrepreneur's Library.:
"FAITH Honesty doesn't come from out of nowhere. It is a product of your moral convictions. But what do you do when your convictions are challenged? It is faith that gives you the strength to go on believing. Don't wear it on your sleeve; roll up both sleeves and do something about it. When I was 11 years old, my adoptive grandmother took me to Michigan's Gull Lake to be baptized by immersion. I really felt that I was accepted by God when I was baptized. But what I remember most about my baptism was that my Grandma Minnie made it happen. For her, Christianity meant more than doctrine you talked about on Sundays. It meant working hard in a restaurant, seeing to the lodgers she rented rooms to, tending a big garden, doing the canning, and taking care of the farm animals every morning. And it meant teaching her grandson about faith."
This Sunday I will discuss Baptism as adoption into the family of God, being adopted formally as a child of God. Dave worked hard at promoting adoption of children, and is that not what we are doing as clegy, teaching about adopting people as children of God? revup
Baptism is a an entry into the family of God. How many of my parishioners feel that they are employees of God, able to work for God, but to go back to their own lives when a particular job is finished. With the employee idea it is easy to work God into your schedule. If one is truly a child of God there is no working into the schedule, it is state of being. No escape, unable to run away. This is fearful and wonderful at the same time.
Another thought similar is the idea of foster children. These are children that often share the responsibilities of the family, but do not receive the benefits of truly belonging. No one wants to be a foster child. To be adopted is to become part of the family forever - good and bad times. Stability, roots, etc.
Ramblings from joy in the midst
Goodness! What a great comment, "joy in the midst"!
"Employees of God" -- it certainly hits home with a couple of events this week....
We had scheduled three baptisms this Sunday -- two adults (about whom I have commented above) and an infant. The infant's parents were out of town for the holidays ... I'm not sure when they returned, but we have seen them at worship since the 16th of December. So I called last week and left a message to get in touch with me to finalize the baptismal arrangements: no return call. I called again Monday. On Tuesday, the mother called while I was out to lunch and left a message with the secretary: no baptism, they'd made "other plans" for the weekend. Last evening, the father called me at home. "Terribly sorry. Hope we haven't screwed things up. We forgot about the baptism and made arrangements to take down our outside Christmas lights on Sunday morning....." What does one say? I grunted non-commitally and, after hanging up the phone, sat stunned, but only slightly.
You see, the same day a woman I'd asked to teach Sunday School last Fall had called me. When I had first asked her she said, "Not now, but I can after the first of the year." The reason she couldn't: her son played soccer and his games were on Sunday mornings. So we didn't see much of her in the fall because of the soccer schedule. Come the first of the year, I have called her, reminded her of her commitment, and asked again. She couldn't say, but would get back to me. Finally, she did -- yesterday -- she can't teach Sunday School because now her daughter is involved in volleyball and, you guessed it, her games are on Sunday mornings! "We won't even be able to come to church," she says to me as if she were powerless to change the situation. (Most galling in all this is that this woman teaches 4th grade at a local parochial school -- setting a wonderful example of Christian commitment for her students, eh?)
So when the father of the infant who isn't being baptised because outdoor Christmas lights take priority called, I was only slightly stunned.
"Employees of God" indeed!
How do we get people to move beyond this mentality? We extoll the wonder and grace of our (their!) adoption as beloved Children of God ... and they just don't get it!
Blessings, Eric in KS (feeling more than a bit kicked in the gut by a mule this week).
Lots of good stuff this week, thanks. Thanks especially to del. It reminded me of the hymn, Lord, you have come to the Lakeshore. Manzel
What is so pleasing about Jesus? I am thinking of using a few ideas from Jesus CEO by Laurie Beth Jones. Manzel
from Jesus CEO; "He did not waste his time judging others. Jesus saw judging others as a major energy leack. He stated many times he did not come to judge but to help. He did not spend one minute on the demolition crew. He spent his energy on creation and restoration.".... "Judgement halts foreword progress. When leaders judge others, we inhibit our own foreword motion" Anybody else a Laurie Beth Jones fan? Manzel
Jesus CEO says Jesus saw love in control of the plan. It credits Dan Millman with this story: One day a man bought a stallion and all his friends said, "that's good". The next day the stallion ran away and his friends said, "thats bad". Two weeks later the stallion returned with a herd of mares. His friends said "thats good". The next day his son broke his shoulder when the stallion threw him off. The friends said thats bad. The next month war broke out. Because the boy was injured he could not go to war. The friends said thats good.
the story could go on with people judging events, labeling them good or bad.... actually all the events are connected and impact each other.
Jesus was calm even when his life and work seemed to be unraveling before him...he knew and believed love was in control of the plan.
from Jesus CEO.............manzel
I dunno, Manzel..I always thought of Jesus overturning the tables in the Temple as a "one man demolition crew." :)
and to AEA - thanks for your response..I guess I am more wounded by my churches response than I knew...trouble is...I really don't know how to respond to them now.....I guess I am just really disappointed in their first response...mine always has been, "do what you can to help the wounded, and then work out the details later...." Anyway, thanks for hearing.
Jude in Wash
affirmation is more than a positive judgement now and then. It is a holistic thing, a disposition characterized by good will. It is an expression and engagement of one's whole self in the act of saying "yes". God says "yes", creation is good. Our moments of joy and celebration are when we say "yes" to life and "yes" to God...........
Affirmation is a celebration of the soul. The simple act of saying "yes" is one of the most spiritual things we ever do. Manzel
It is true that Laurie Beth Jones' statements are often sweeping generalizations that are not always strictly accurate, but in looking at the overall picture there wonderful truths in her statements.
As for Jesus overturning the money tables in the temple, if we proclaim this to be standard behavior of Jesus life, aren't we distorting the over-all picture? If we use this one event of perhaps violent confrontation to characterize all of Jesus life, imagine how destructive we would become in our sense of ministry. Manzel
Jihad is what some people believe to be a holy war. The belief that such things are holy and the will of God comes from seeing such destructive events in the scriptures as being indeed the "will of God".
Who are we to think we are any better than any terrorist group if this is the kind of beliefs we perpetuate? My purpose is not to call anyone names but to say that we do indeed have a higher standard in Jesus. and that Jesus really did focus on construction and restoration more than on advocating destruction. Manzel
I've always had trouble finding good baptism illustrations. I offer this one in the hope of sharing more. Paula in sunny Fl
Ralph Wood was invited by one of his former students to accompany him to the local minimum-security prison for a baptism. Reluctantly he agreed and together they went to the prison. The baptism turned out to be a real joy. "It was as close to a New Testament experience as perhaps I shall ever have," Woods wrote. A guard escorted the prisoner from behind a fence that was topped with razor wire. His family had not been able to attend because their broken down car had failed yet again. There were just the three of them, with the guard looking curiously on. The barefoot prisoner stepped into a wooden box that had been lined with a plastic sheet and filled with water. It looked like a large coffin, and rightly so. "This was no warmed and tiled First Baptist bath, with its painted River Jordan winding pleasantly into the distance," Wood reflects. "This was a place of death: watery chaos from which God graciously made the world and to which, in rightful wrath he almost returned it." Pronouncing the trinitarian formula, the pastor lowered the new Christian down into the liquid grace to be buried with Christ and then raised him up to eternal life. Though the water was cold, the man was not eager to get out. Instead, he stood there weeping for joy. When at last he left the baptismal box, "I thought he would hurry away to change into something dry," Wood thought, "but I was mistaken." The prisoner, the newborn Christian told them, "I want to wear these clothes as long as I can. In fact, I wish I never had to take a shower again." They walked to the nearby tables and sat quietly in the Carolina sun, hearing this new Christian explain why his baptismal burial was too good to dry off. "I'm now a free man," he declared. "I'm not impatient to leave prison because this wire can't shackle my soul. I know that I deserved to come here, to pay for what I did. But I also learned here that Someone else has paid for all my crimes." Ralph C. Wood, "Baptism in a Coffin," Ralph C. Wood, Christian Century, 21 October 1992, 925-926.
Jude, I did not see your smiley face. I thought you were serious in thinking we should consider violent confrontation as a model for ministry. My bad. Manzel
I had a gentlemen in my former parish who used to tell me that he was an “CEO Christian: Christmas, Easter, and Occasionally.” Pr.del in IA
Pr. del in IA: Around here we call those sorts of folks "Chreasters" ... just a step up from "Sprinklers".
Since we have been talking Baptism this week, "Sprinklers" are a relevant group. These are the folks you see three times: when you sprinkle them with water, when you sprinkle them with rice, and when you sprinkle them with dirt. Otherwise, you very rarely see "Sprinklers."
Blessings, Eric in KS
I never noticed this, the voice from heaven could be speaking about Jesus or the voice could be speaking about the Spirit decending like a dove and alighting on Jesus.
wow, what would it mean if we interpreted it that way? It is almost as if Matthew is borrowing the story from Mark who assumes Jesus begins being the Christ at his baptism.
How does that song go, On the wings of a snow white dove, he sends down his pure sweet love...
Was Jesus the only one to see the spirit decending on him? If so how many actually heard the voice from heaven. If it was only Jesus why would the voice speak in third person? If John heard the voice why does he later send his disciples to ask Jesus if he really is the one?
This just does not sound like a first hand account. If it were a narative told by Jesus it would really sound like blowing your own horn.
wouldn't it be nice if on every preacher's first sunday in a new church the sky opened up and the spirit landed and a voice said this is my servant, Listen to him/her.
would this imply that our preaching is infallable? Guess its a good thing this does not happen.But then when churches fire their preacher they act as if their had been a betrayal of some divine endorcement and therefore the preacher is not simply unemployed but 'fallen".
when the spirit alights on Jesus does that mean that he is inspired. Is he inspired for that day, for that season, inspired for a particular mission or inspired permanately? We assume permanately adn yet it often seems that the rest of us need a second touch.
Wonder how many of us are waiting for the sky to open up. I used to think such waithing was silly and now it seems like a way of life.
Seems like as the new testiment begins God suddenly gets very personal.
To add to the ideas about the reaffirmation of our Baptisms, a couple years ago I used an idea I got from this site and it worked wonderfully.
I had people come forward, put their hands in the water of the font and then turn to the person behind them, look them in the eyes and say, "You are a beloved child of God." Then the next person did the same, dipped their hands, then turned to the person behind them.
I started by saying the words to the first person in line and then went to back of the line to dip my hands and have the words said to me.
It was very powerful, especially telling people to look each other in the eyes - it's a look of truth. Kids said it to grown-ups, and vice versa. It was very moving.
SAP
One more quote to add this week from guitar legend Stevie Ray Vaughan: "It took me quite a while to realize that THE REAL DEAL is to be able to be enough of a person on your own to know when somebody loves you and cares about you."
God, in calling us all the beloved, is the REAL DEAL. SAP in MA
John the B spent his life proclaiming the coming of Christ. That was his purpose and he devoted himself to it. Yet when the time came to baptize Jesus, he held back. Put up an attempt at "I'm not worthy" (which we all do in different ways, at different times and which our Acts passage clearly shows us we are released from). Anyway, it wasn't until John gave that "I'm not worthy" stuff up that he was completely submitted to God's will. Even though he'd DONE all the right stuff up until then!
Many people make the DECISION to become a Christian. DO all the right stuff, all their lives. But deep down they still think "I'm not worthy - I'm no good - blah, blah, blah" They have been converted to Christianity, but they haven't yet submitted to salvation! Others are still holding back from complete submission to service.
Jesus began His earthly ministry after His baptism. By virtue of our baptism we, too, are called to ministry - ALL who are baptized. Coupling this with Isaiah, we will remember our baptism this week. Each person who comes forward will remember through water over his/her hand and then will pick up a servant towel to take with them.
I will talk of using this towel in whatever way they choose - dishes, shoe shining, bowling ball polishing, etc. No matter the use, it should serve as a trigger to prayer and meditation on their own personal call to ministry in the name of Jesus.
kat in PA
Last year I preached "Did Jesus NEED to be baptised?" The title was put on our lighted 30-ft marquee out by the road, and that sign generated more "buzz" than anything else we've put in front of the public. It even got me out of a traffic ticket!
How can I do something new this year? . . .
Basically, I said that Jesus needed to be baptised because he needed to experience it himself. We take communion every Sunday, and we must use real bread and actually taste it to remind ourselves that Jesus is real, and really lived and died in the flesh. It isn't enough to imagine ourselves having communion. He said "DO this in remembernce . . ."
The same applies to baptism. It isn't enough to imagine yourself being cleansed, being dead and then raised again in the LORD, you actually have to get wet. I'm an immersionist, not because there is salvation in the water, but because it is the most effective way of communicating to my whole person that I am dying in sin, and as Paul says I must be raised with Christ.
Most of our baptizants are young people. Since I am a very corpulent man, I sometimes jest afterward in my baptismal sermon: "Some of you wonder if little Billy really understands baptism . . . do any of YOU? Any of you who will let a 300 pound man hold your head underwater until he's satisfied that you believe in Jesus is definitely committed to the gospel!"
This year I think I will preach the whole chapter. A colleague suggested comparing the people in the story: the crowd, the pharisees, John, Jesus, God-the-Father . . . which can you identify yourself with?
One more thing: in Greek, this chapter is filled with "erchominos": the coming-one. All Jerusalem comes to John. The Pharisees come to him. Jesus comes to him. The dove comes down to Jesus as he comes up from the water. In scripture, water is an allegorical type for people, the multitudes. AM with an aleph is ocean, AM with an ayin is people/nation (or is that the other way around?) In Revelation, the beast rises from the sea, which we are told represents all the nations. Jesus came up out of the water, too. Jesus came from the human race, and the spirit came down from heaven; thus Jesus is where the human comes up to meet the descending spirit . . .
Eric in KS- Its the most frustrating part of being a pastor isn't it? Those people who can't get priorities straight. I wonder though if people used to be more committed or if there just weren't any other activities going on on Sunday morning. In our area at least it wasn't that long ago that at least community sports activities didn't start till 2 p.m. or so on Sunday because there was the understanding that enough people had conflicts that it couldn't be done. Society has changed-- and not for the better.
I am working on a sermon for this week centering on water. Water-- necessary for life. Water-- common, easy to find/ get. Water--gift from God, taken for granted until a draught comes. Any ideas/ illustrations appreciated!
joinva
Eric in KS,
Ow! That mule kicked you so hard I feel it in my gut, 3 states over. Just for that, I'm not going to take my outside lights down at all! Solidarity!
If it helpany, your words are heard here. I'm taken by your observation that in baptism it doesn't matter so much what you're turning from, but rather whom you are turning to and who you are turning into. This may well be the crux of my sermon.
revup- thanx for the timely Dave Thomas illustration. I may title my sermon, "This One's For Dave" as I explore the adoption metaphor of baptism. My wife and I have both fostered and adopted and I can find numerous personal illustrations.
About that- I take some issue with "joy in the midst", who says foster children have all the responsibility and none of the benefits of the family's natural children. We extended to our foster kids all the benefits of family membership while in our care. If anyone felt slighted it was our own kids who had to share with these outsiders the loving parents took in (good metaphor here about some long-time church members animosity toward new converts). Of course the benifits they shared with our children weren't lasting. Others had a claim on them. We couldn't do all we wanted for them because they weren't wholly ours. May be a metaphor there too, for the almost-Christians. tom in TN(USA)
Oh, more I meant to say-
Here is an idea I got from a clergy friend of mine about reaffirmation of Baptism. He went to the craft store and got a bag of those "stones" they use in flower arranging. They look like melted marbles, clear glass blobs. They also look amazingly like drops of water. After a service of reaffirmation, he handed them out asking his folks to carry them in their pockets or change purse, ala "the cross in my pocket", as a reminder of their baptism. I'm thinking about having them in a font filled with water, inviting my folks to reach in, feel the wetness, remember their baptism, and take a lasting reminder as they go. Water is usually seem as the least stable of footings, but the baptismal waters are a firm foundation. In the bleak midwinter...water like a stone. tom in TN(USA)
How much of our perceptions of baptism are colored by what Paul says about it?
John called for a repentence, that is a change of heart or a turning around of one's life. Does that necessarily mean looking at one's life in terms of sin?
What if the baptism of Jesus had nothing to do with sin and we have made it into a pagan ritual of washing away sin in the name of Jesus?
Tom in TN (my son is there, too) and Joinva, thanks for your commiserations....
Tom, about water being the least stable of all foundations ... Two things come to mind.
First, the stability of ocean-going oil drilling rigs that are "anchored" simply by having water-filled legs going deep enough into the waters -- though the surface waters may church and boil and be blown about by storms, the platforms remain stable because of the stability of the deep ocean into which their deepest, water-filled parts extend.
Second, the Taoist reminder that water is also the strongest of the elements. A stone in a stream will be warn away by the water -- it may take time and patience, but eventually the water prevails.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Ahem... I think I made a "Freudian slip" here...
"...though the surface waters may CHURCH (!) and boil and be blown about by storms..."
Of course, I meant ... "though the surface waters may CHURN" ... !!!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Some anonymous poster asked, "What if the baptism of Jesus had nothing to do with sin and we have made it into a pagan ritual of washing away sin in the name of Jesus?"
Push a button .... my reply is "Who cares?" This concern for "pagan rituals" (ala the Christmas tree, Easter egg, etc. debates) amuses me.
Several years ago at the start of the General Convention of the Episcopal Church held in Phoenix, AZ, the central altar used by the assembled delegates and clergy was blessed by some Christian Navahoes using an ancient invocation of the four winds. A few days after that event I was leading an adult study group and one of the participants was just livid about this "pagan ritual" (in her mind "pagan" and "satanic" were synomous). I asked whether she might agree that rituals, like people, could be "baptized", that is, couldn't the church Christianize and utilize the rituals of ancient peoples (which, of course, the church has done from the start).
"NO!" was her emphatic reply, and she drew this analogy. "It is like purposefully planting a weed in your garden. Weeds have to be torn out, root and all!"
But, I thought, weeds (as my grandfather used to say) are merely plants whose virtue has not yet been discovered. Tomatoes, for example, were considered "weeds" and even poisonous by many Europeans until they were shown otherwise.
If the Holy Spirit has led the church to utilize a "pagan ritual" (which baptism wasn't! but other things might be) as a way of symbolizing God's Grace and love ... why should we argue with it? Once the church has appropriated the ritual and the symbolism, it is no longer "pagan" -- it has become Christian in the same way that the newly baptized member is no long the "old man" (to use a Pauline reference) but a "new man"....
Just some rambling thoughts....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Paul Ricoeur in his book "Figuring the Sacred" (1995) speaks about the summoned self
The responding self is uprooted from his condition, his place, and his desire - the call itself isolates, the commissioning binds him to something larger than self.
1. Confrontation with God
Here are some examples:
The Burning Bush The Call of Isaiah in the Temple The visions of Ezekiel
There is a dialogical relationship between the "I" of the prophet and the divine "I" who sends him forth on mission.
The Prophetic ego is so radically decentered that it is first uprooted form its initial setting. The Holy Spirit decends upon him .... like a dove
2. Introductory Speech
God makes a self-announcment before calling the prophet
"I am the God of abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "(Exodus 3:6)
And a voice came from heaven. "You are my Son, my Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."
3. Decisive Word
"I send you"
Now the prophet is established, commanded, must continue to listen in order to speak.
"I have put my spirit upon you." (Isaiah 42:1-9)
How does this brief outline fit into the call story of Jesus, his Baptism?
tom in ga
tom in ga... I think it fits very nicely.
As to the "decentering" of the prophet's ego, I think the next part of the story of Jesus is illustrative: the 40 days in the desert. In Matthew and Luke, the Spirit "leads" Jesus into the desert, but Mark's version has that wonderfully powerful and graphic vision of Jesus "driven" by the Spirit into the desert. Talk about a radical "decentering"!
Blessings, Eric in KS
OK - I'm confused. The voice from Heaven, in this text, said, "this is my son, the Beloved. With Whom I'm well pleased. " I don't read, "you are baptized not for your own sins, but for those of the whole people. For you are the one of whom Isaiah prophesies that must suffer representatively for the sins of the people." This seems like Oscar Cullum's INTERPRETATION of what God said.
I'm going on down the road that our baptism is, in effect, our ordination - and I appreciate what someone pointed out, that he was ordained to suffer. If we are to follow his example, perhaps that's more strongly a part of our own calling than we want to acknowledge.
Often, our desire to be the baptizees is a false humility. Maybe well-meaning, but really is an excuse to abdicate ourselves from fulfilling our own calling (or all righteousness?). Interesting that Matthew ends with the commission to baptize others, the way Jesus' ministry begins with his own baptism. This is a clue to what is expected of those who would follow Jesus.
Sally in gA
OK, I'm also ignorant - who is Laurie Beth Jones?
Sally in GA
I was not trying to extol the name of Laure Beth Jones but simply give her credit because I took several thoughts from her book to use this week. She is not a bilical scholar or preacher but a very popular author of many books which model leadership after Jesus.
The book Jesus CEO being a best seller is probably no big deal except if it is written by a non clergy person and sells millions of copies to non church people as well as to many church people then it is indeed a sign of the times. We preachers have been lamenting for years that we don't reach enough people on Sunday mornings. Here an author makes bundles selling millions of books to millions of people talking about Jesus to many people who don't even attend a church. I mean there really is a market there.
There are people who are very interested in Jesus who have not interest in being in church on Sundays. Manzel
I mean people interested in Jesus who have no interest in church. Manzel
I too get frustrated when people put sports or other activities ahead of church. But it is apretty big assumption to think they are not interested in Jesus, Sometimes the church just does not do so good a job presenting Jesus. Manzel
I went through the Sunday sports thing with my kids. We just didn't join teams that played on Sunday, or I insisted they miss many of the games to go to church. I could get away with it easier because I was the minister. However, several Jewish friends pointed out to me, Sunday morning sports allow Jewish kids who are religious to freely participate.
DGinNYC
is this a chance to ask our folks why do we baptise anyway? what is this all about? will I ever see this child again Rev. Ed in ct.
I think somebody here asked something like "why was God pleased with Jesus?" Why, indeed? We don't know exactly how he's been occupying his time since putting his mom and dad through that big scare at the tender age of twelve, but it's likely that it wasn't anything that seemed out of the ordinary. His hometown folk didn't seem to think he had reason to act like such a big shot that time he stood up to read Isaiah. All the walking on water and healing and teaching and dying and rising from the dead was yet to come.
Why was God pleased with him? What had he done? What had he accomplished? We only know one thing for certain. He made the journey from Nazareth to Jordan, submitted himself to John, and was baptized. He may well have been without sin; he may very well have had no need to undergo such a ritual; he may have had no real need to express repentance and a disavowel of sin, as one does at baptism, but he did it anyway. "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)
Also, we are told in scripture that Jesus was without sin, but are we ever told he is without doubt? Can anyone think of an example from the Bible? Perhaps Jesus came because he was questioning himself, and in order to commence his ministry, needed to hear those words, "my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." Wadda y'all thaaank? Pastor Andy, Ionia NY
Who is worried about not enough contributions?!!! My eyes always hurt when i try to read everyone, so I skim, and I know I miss a lot. I too am thinking along the lines of commissioning and being called and amde worthy by Christ. I am looking forward to exploring this from John's point of view for once.
and by the way, i despise labels like liberal and conservative, etc. Christ is who holds us all together. Let's stick to Christian. Thanks. Rachel
I am comparing John the Baptist's response, "No really, Jesus, baptize me!" to Peter's response to Jesus saying he must suffer. Neither Peter nor John can bear to see Jesus do anything that might be beneath him. Also, neither can understand Jesus' willingness to CONDESCEND to these acts. Baptism in this way prefigures Jesus' suffering and death (as it does for us all.) I am preaching on why it ought to be as hard for us to watch our beloved be baptized as it was on John--we know the path that baptism prefigures. Jesus' baptism claims him as his Father's Son, and not a Son of Temptation ("SATAN"--what Jesus turns and calls Peter when Peter tries to tamper with his calling) In other words, when someone is claimed for the Lord in baptism, we forgo a claim on them as "OURS." They could very well be called by God in directions far beyond those we would have imagined. But we like John, are called to baptize them anyway...
Stophe in Blacksburg, SC
Hello all...
This is a late addition as all of mine are...
if you're looking for a good idea to help folks remember their baptism... I have the FONT in the center of the front of the sanctuary. In it, I've placed a couple hundred of those flat marbles... they can be purchased at any ARTS AND CRAFTS STORE, or at your local Wal-Mart in the ARTS AND CRAFTS department.
Before the end of the worship... either just before they are invited forward or during my sermon I invite all in attendance to come forward to remember their baptism. They need to make the effort... to get out of the pew and come forward, dipping their hands in the cool waters of baptism that reminds them of the change that took place in their lives, mostly as infants. Now as adults or even older youth... they are invited to take a stone... it's round, basically... reminding us that we are all a part of the whole. Some have chips or nicks in them... we too come with nicks and chips, some seen, some known only to God and ourselves. They are flat, so they won't roll away if you place them on your night stand, a dresser, by the sink in your bathroom, your kitchen, or your office. They are clear... (you can get blue ones, or clear ones or even kind of a rainbow metalic looking ones)... They are ALL "See through"... just as our lives are an open book to God.
Some carry them in their purses or pockets to remind them of God's love, ALL THE TIME! Reaching for change, to feel the smooth stone is a comfort to remember.
It's gone over real well... I keep thinking people will grow tired of them... someone reminded me... "how often does your church celebrate Holy Communion?" "Say the Lord's Prayer"... etc. etc. it is now a tradition in our church... and people look forward to it...
Hoping this isn't too late for some of you to see...
With Blessings and abundant Grace,
pulpitt in ND
Ruth in CA.... I guarentee you I will see it that late... lol
pulpitt in ND
Ruth in CA.... I guarentee you I will see it that late... lol
ALSO, thanks Crystal... I wish I'd have seen that entrance last week... ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Sally and others... I'm just now getting through all your wonderful "offerings"...
>I do not do re-baptism: "ONE baptism for the >forgiveness of sins." We may break our side of the >covenant, but God doesn't break covenants...
Pr. Del in IA... that's what I like best... the illustrations... as one of the first ordained UMC women clergy tells a friend of mine in Spearfish, SD... "WE can't outgive God!" Grace Huck is her name...
Tuesday... I meet with area UM clergy in a text study...
Kingdom of God Moments come to us all... sometimes I notice in time to "MAKE A DIFFERENCE" other times... I miss the opportunity...
I may use this Sunday, or some Newsletter article coming soon. I was at Hornbacher's (local grocery store) yesterday morning... getting grapes, bananas, OK and a few Sweet Rolls... just a few... as I got out of my car, I noticed a little older than young mother (old enough to know better)... she was adjusting child #2 in a car seat in her van, parked in the handicapped parking... or close enough to it where I wondered... child #1 age I would guess 8 or so... was singing and dancing in the beautiful morning air... something about babies... one HAPPY kid... to which the "mother" turned to him and grumpily, gruffly rebuked his glee with... "Have you had a baby?" Which brought his dance to a standstill one... he shook his head, "no"... to which she replied, "Then quit your singing!"...
well, he stopped... his countenance fell, and he obediently took his place in the back of the van by his little sister.
Should I have said something to her? probably...her reaction would have been one of "thanks, I needed that..." or "buddy, mind your own business"
Should I have said something to him? definitely... Did I? No, I didn't, but a fire burned in my belly all day because of it....
Oh well, EACH DAY... baptism days, Epiphany days... we each have a chance to make a difference in the lives of others...to make the world a better place... what makes some take those risks while others don't....
I don't know...
I just don't know...
pulpitt in ND
I couldn't resist adding this one... my daughter and I did this a year ago... it was a HOOT!!!
I know, it's too late for this year... but file it...
BAPTIST 5'3m0f John the Baptist almost fails to baptize Jesus
COP --- (pointing gun offstage) Alright, you in the river, freeze, scum bag!
JOHN -- (from offstage) Are you talking to me?
COP --- Let that man go and put your hands in the air, you hairball.
JOHN -- (from offstage) But, officer, I...
COP --- Listen, scum bag, this is a 357 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world. It could blow your head clean off. Now what you gotta ask yourself is do you feel lucky?
JOHN -- (enters, hands raised) Don't shoot. My hands are up, see?
COP --- Now, turn around, nice and slow, and put put hands behind your head.
JOHN -- But, officer, I...
COP --- Go ahead, make my day.
JOHN -- (turns, hands behind head) I'm turning, I'm turning. Just like you said, see?
COP --- (puts on hand cuffs) Alright, scum bucket, you're under arrest for attempted murder.
JOHN -- Attempted murder?! Who was I trying to kill?
COP --- Come on, hair ball, there must be 500 people here saw you trying to drown that poor guy in the river there.
JOHN -- I wasn't trying to drown him. I was baptizing him.
COP --- Save it for the judge, dirt ball. (pulls out book, writes) Just help me fill out this form, then we'll haul you off to jail where you can cool off. Name?
JOHN -- My name is John.
COP --- Last name?
JOHN -- I don't have a last name. The people call me John the Baptist.
COP --- Oh! You go by a handle, eh? Well, I know your type. You're a drug dealer. (frisks John) I'll just pat you down and see if you're carrying. Alright, scum bag, where did you stash the drugs?
JOHN -- Drugs? I don't have any drugs. I don't even drink wine.
COP --- You are the worst possible predator on humanity. You pedal your poison and live off the misery of others. You make me puke. (writes) No last name. Charges: attempted murder, suspicion of drug dealing. Make it easy on yourself, fella. Tell me where you stashed your drugs and I'll put in a good for you with the D.A.
JOHN -- I told you, I don't have any drugs.
COP --- Then why are all these people standing in line? And don't tell me that they were waiting patiently so you could try to drown them too.
JOHN -- I told you. I wasn't trying to drown him. I was baptizing him. And they all came to be baptized too.
COP --- Right. And if I believe that I'll bet you've got some swamp land in Florida you'd like to sell me, heh. Alright, what's your address?
JOHN -- My address?
COP --- Yes, where do you live?
JOHN -- I live in the desert.
COP --- This just gets better and better. Listen, scum ball, I've had a long day. Just tell me your address.
JOHN -- I told you. I live in the desert.
COP --- Alright. Have it your way. I try to be a nice guy. Charges: Attempted murder, suspicion of drug dealing AND vagrancy. Occupation? And don't tell me you're a baptist.
JOHN -- Well, I'm a prophet, too.
COP --- Profit? See? I knew you were in it for the money.
JOHN -- Not that profit. I'm a prophet. I foretell the future.
COP --- Oh, that scam, eh? Let's see here, attempted murder, suspicion of drug dealing, vagrancy AND fortune telling fraud.
JOHN -- I'm not a fortune tell...
COP --- So, how much are these poor dupes paying you to tell their fortune?
JOHN -- They don't pay me anything, officer.
COP --- Where did you stash the money?
JOHN -- I don't have any money because I don't charge anything. I don't need any money. I live off the land in the desert.
COP --- Right. And if I believe that I'll bet you've got this bridge for sale at a bargain basement price. So, if you don't have any money, how do you eat?
JOHN -- I eat wild honey and locusts.
COP --- Alright, scum bag, you're history. I'm telling the D.A. to throw the book at you.
JOHN -- I'm sorry if it's hard for you to believe, officer, but that's how I live.
COP --- Recommendations: Complete psychiatric exam. So, what were you and the other guy fighting about.
JOHN -- We weren't fighting. I told you, I was baptizing him.
COP --- Oh, I got it. Fighting over drug territories, eh? What's the name of the victim.
JOHN -- Victim? Oh, you mean my cousin. That's Jesus of Nazareth.
COP --- His occupation.
JOHN -- He's the Messiah.
COP --- I don't want his handle. I need his occupation.
JOHN -- Well, he WAS a carpenter, but he's now a full time messiah.
COP --- And what does a messiah do?
JOHN -- He is God incarnate.
COP --- Don't get smart with me, scum bag, or I'd drop you like a bad habit.
GOD --- (deep booming voiceover with echos) This is my son in whom I am well pleased.
(the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings the Hallelujah Chorus)
JOHN -- Now do you believe me, officer? (pause) Officer? Officer?
COP --- (stunned) Huh?
JOHN -- Do you believe me now?
COP --- Believe what?
JOHN -- Do you believe that I'm a prophet and that Jesus is God incarnate? (pause) Are you alright, officer?
COP --- Huh?
JOHN -- Are you alright?
COP --- Ah, yeah. (takes off hand cuffs) You're free to go.
JOHN -- So, you DO believe me?
COP --- Huh? Not on your life, scum bucket. But if I arrest you, my report has to include that... that... whatever that was.
JOHN -- That was the descending of the Holy Spirit.
COP --- Whatever it was... I'd have to include it in my report. I'll be filling out reports for a week and it would be me going in for a psychiatric exam. Me, I've got bigger fish to fry... like that guy in the chariot there. (points)Hey, fella... (pulls gun, exits) you in the chariot! That was an illegal left turn, pull over.
©2001 Bob Snook. Conditions for use: Do not sell any part of this script, even if you rewrite it. Pay no royalties, even if you make money from performances. You may reproduce and distribute this script freely, but all copies must contain this copyright statement. http://www.fea.net/bobsnook email: bobsnook@fea.net
Thanks to Bob Snook...
pulpitt in ND
OK, this is it for tonight...
I'm reminded a little of an Abbot and Costello skit... Me Baptize YOU, I thought YOU'D baptise me...
well, you get the idea...
Who's on First?
For all you late in the weekers...
thanks for all the contributions... I know, I took way too much space, my eyes hurt too... not to mention my fingers...
Well, have a good Sunday!
Differences... liberal or conservative? John the Baptist or Jesus?
I like the contributions... it's hard to see the log in my neighbors eye when the forrest fills my eyes with leaves... in the words of Rodney King... "Can't we all just get along?"
Blessings, care and grins,
pulpitt in ND
THIS IS REALLY IT...
my last contribution for the night... HONEST...
before you all send me a note... regarding the Bob Snook site... yes, I could have copied just the web-site... but how many of you would have went to the effort to actually read through it there?
All of you? OK, next time, I'll print the site only...
;?)
With grins, and zzzzzzzzzzzz's,
pulpitt in ND
pulpitt in ND What a great idea, thanks! I', going to use it this week. Pr.del in Ia
pulpitt in ND
the marble idea, that is..... Pr.del in Ia
Thanks for all your contributions. I thought I was on my way until I taught my Confirmands. Inspired I asked them what they get out of by being in a club. The answers were amazing - everything from respect to uniforms - even a password! They threw in a couple to challenge me and by the time they got done they figured out that being part of the club - "belonging" to God was pretty good stuff. Added to the comments above about working for God CEO style and the remembrance of stones - I am now ready. It is important for people to understand how important it is to belong to the club and what that membership involves.
For the baptism of our Lord day. As I was reading the contributions, I liked the idea of coming from foreign lands and afte baptism belonging. I grew up in an Italian community in NJ. I never quite "fit in" because my mother's family was Penna. Dutch. What a match! Anyway, I constantly asked my mother " What am I?" She would look atme lovingly and tell I was of the"Heinz 57" variety. My family had been in this country since the 1600's and we were truly a melting pot for genetics. So where does my identity come from? Well, it xcomes from my baptism, for no matter what my gentics are, my souls has been brought to new life through my baptism. And as with Jesus, after my baptism, the dove gently lands on my shoulder and leads me through the wildernesses of this life to the other side. Thanks be to God!
I am SO grateful for all the contributions to the discussions here! I appreciate the illustrations and comments more than I can say. I often take short passages from the discussions and use them in my sermons, sometimes even as a direct quote (with credit given). Thank you all, and may God bless each one, and our continuing discussion! Rev Janet in CNY
A contributor asked "Why was God pleased with Jesus? What had Jesus done?"
Do our children have to DO something for us to be well pleased with them? When that new baby was first placed in your arms, weren't you well pleased? He/she didn't do a thing - just was/is. I believe that is the way it was/is with God. Jesus is God's Son, God is pleased with that - that is enough for God. We are God's children - the beloved - God is pleased.
My middle daughter sent me this quote while she was in college: "God has given us this life as a gift, what better gift can we give than to live it for Him." Jesus was beginning his ministry; God was pleased. When we accept baptism either for ourselves or our infant children, we are beginning something - most of us do not know what - and God is pleased that we are beginning...
Baptism is a free gift from God. Baptism is something that God does, we are just participants in the act. It is how we respond when the ritual is completed that counts. It is how we live our lives - either for God or not - that stands the test of time.
To touch briefly on the comments about parents bringing their children to get "done" and then the Church doesn't see them again except at Christmas (maybe) and Easter (maybe), but surely when the NEXT child is "ready": I firmly believe that God's prevenient grace is at work regardless. If we do our homework correctly, and offer the families we counsel the basis for baptism and the commitments that are being made, we just need to trust God that God will work within their lives as time goes on. That being said, however, we are not off the hook. I am just in the process of drafting a letter to send to those whom I have married/baptized, etc. and not seen again except out shopping. Oh, the looks of sadness when we speak and they automatically apologize for not being in Church! God is working... Thanks be!
Betty in NY
P.S. Thanks for all your comments, especially regarding adoption into God's family. My homily this week will speak about "Retelling Stories." We need to be continually reminded of the wonders of the stories in The Book, and this is truly a beautifuly one.
I am still kicking myself for having the reaffirmation last week!
TEA asked about the relationship between "David" and "beloved" in Hebrew .... until this morning, I hadn't had time to put on my rudimentary-Hebrew-hat and take a look at that but, yes, indeed there is a relationship.
The three-letter root of both words in Hebrew is dalet-vav-dalet ("DWD" in English transliteration). If you insert vowel points to make the pronounciation "Dode", the meaning is "beloved" -- if you insert other vowel points, so that it is pronounced "Dah-weed" (the Hebrew original of "David"), you get the masculine name which also means "Beloved."
So there is the interesting point TEA makes about the Voice's comment -- it could be "This is my son, my beloved" or "This is my son, my David" === there's definitely something messianic in that!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Thanks so much, Pastor Andy Max in NC
About people coming to have a child baptized and then not attending church often or at all. Keep reaching out to these people. One young woman is finally after 5 years is interested in joining the church, could we explain the difference between the church she grew up in but doesn't attend and ours (Presbyterian USA) the only one in a very small town. Two sons are baptized, her husband is a life time if semi-active member. Welcoming folks in Jesus name sometimes takes awhile to get a response. Sue in Cuba, KS
In the Presbyterian Church (USA) we only baptize babies who's parents are active members of the church. If someone wants to baptize a baby, they have to start attending church, and eventually be part of a membership class that goes for several weeks. Then we talk about baptism. It makes sense to me, because in baptism parents vow to raise their child as a Christian. You don't have to tell anyone you won't baptize their baby. You just require something of them... that they take it seriously. DGinNYC
Last night I watched The Man in the Iron Mask. The story is that a twin brother of Loui XIV was raised to age 16 in a secluded area and then spends 6 years in prison wearing an iron mask and not knowing why. He assumes there is someting about his face that is a problem to someone but he does not know why. After the Muscateers rescue him they explain that his own twin is king and keeping him in prison.
Not only is his true identity a glorious onebut there are verious scenes poinent for our discussion. Esp when he first sees the Queen Mother and she says to him "you are my own dear son".
Later the great Dartanion himself says to the boy, I never felt paternal pride until this moment.... Manzel
While I am thinking about true identities and affirmations of true identity I am also giving a few thoughts to the masks that we wear and moments of truth when we get beyond them. There is a certain intimacy when others see us for who we really are. Manzel
Has anyone considered the power of God's voice in this situation? God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased," and it was so. I think that's why Psalm 29, with all of its references to "the voice of the Lord" is included in the lectionary. I'm also trying to work in the creation story in Genesis and possibly the description of creation in Job 38. I look forward to any comments or suggestions anyone has to offer. Thanks, zombiewoof68@hotmail.com
As a Baptist (Southern Baptist at that), I find that most of our people, strangely, are totally unaware of this particular emphasis.
I'm planning to cover this whole chapter with an eye toward preparing to hear God's voice (which is what happened after Jesus' baptism) taking the whole preaching of John as the means to move toward hearing God speak.
1) Penitence - John's preaching had one simple theme; repent to prepare the way of the Lord. How can we hope to hear God's voice yet harbor sin in our hearts? (Psalms 66:18; Isaiah 59:2)
2) Purity - We must not only be free of sin, but must be filled with righteousness. In Jesus, righteousness is not merely the absence of evil, but is a presence of holiness. That presence seeks to fill our lives as well. (John 14:23; Ephesians 5:18)
3) Purpose - Both John and Jesus came to "fulfill all righteousness" or, put another way, to fulfill God's purpose and to do His will. To know God's truth, we must desire to do His will and then be willing to fulfill His purpose. (John 7:17; Hebrews 10:7)
Don't know if this helps, but they are the Friday thoughts of a perennial "3-point" guy.
JG in WI
For those who want to know more than you ever really wanted to know about baptism, there is a book by a man named Stookey about Baptism published by Abingdon and available from Cokesbury. It is an excellent book and begins with a story about a girl who was baptized 5 times. Why do we baptize? In part it is an initiation rite into the church. For those of us who baptize by immersion, it is symbolic of our dying to an old way of life (being put under the water) and rising to a new kind of life (in Christ). I am going to talk about being incorporated into the body of Christ. Through his baptism Jesus connected us all. Those who are Methodist will love the word, "connectional." PH in OH
Good spirited discussion!
Someone mentioned adoption/foster analogies. I've always had this parble in my mind re how we come into relationship w/ God vs 'just visiting.'
Seems that there was this great couple... lived in a regular neighborhood... but their doors were always open to all the kids... especially the homeless, the parentless. Anyone was welcome anytime for a meal, clothes, a place to sleep, a family... if that's what they wanted.
The understanding was always that if any kid wanted to be adopted by this couple.. all they had to do was ask, and they were officially adopted with all the rights etc. as if they were their biological child.
Adoption days were great celebrations... a special meal, a party... new last name... and lots of hugs.
Well the years came and went. Lots of kids took the offer and were adopted. Lots of kids didn't but continued to enjoy the 'family life' in the home. There was so much love in that family, an outsider couldn't tell who was adopted and who wasn't.
Sadly one day, this couple was killed. Now, unbeknownst to anyone, this couple had lots of money, assets, etc. The inheritance was incredible! When the will was read, everything was divided equally... amongst the adopted children.
There were lots of kids there who had lived as part of the family for years and considered themselves as much a part of the family as the "technically" adopted kids and protested the will.
All the lawyer could say was... "the invitation was always there. You were able to experience all the benefits... just not the inheritance."
Sorry... that baptism analogy was from me..
RevPam
Baptism is an affirmation of our being a child of God, do we assume that those not baptized and not God's children? Manzel
Is the purpose of baptism to be inclusive or exclusive? Have you seen the movie Chocolate? Love is difined not by who we exclude but by who we include. How wide did Jesus draw the circle?
I was just imagining people coming to Jesus to be healed and Jesus saying "I'd love to heal you but I can't because you have not been baptized yet". Does that really fit with who Jesus really is?
Is baptism something we earn? Is it a gift of grace? Is it a celebration of grace already given to us?
If it is about grace, is it a means for judging ourselves to be right and others wrong?
Is it evidence that we are blessed and others are not? Aren't the beatitudes the blessing of those who seem to be left out?
Please be patient with my zeal. I don't mean to sound crochety. It is just that we have an obligation to not alow baptism to end up being the opposite of what Jesus intended. It seems to me that Jesus was always challengin self righteousness and I would hate for baptism to become a symbol (intentionally or unintentionally) for self righteousness. Manzel
What if Jesus baptism is really a celebration and affirmation of Jesus "friendship with God"?
I am not suggesting we cannonize the extremely popular writings of Neal Donald Walsh. It is like what Paul discribes as meat offered to idols and certainly offends weaker brothers because of its litterary divise of speaking for God in the first person. Yet perhaps we need to learn something from it.
What if our obsession with sin is our projection on God and does not really Characterize our heavenly father or our Lord Jesus Christ?
What if Friendship with God does indeed come in getting beyond our moralistic mindset?
what if we imagined for a moment that Jesus baptism was a celebration of friendship with God that comes in transcending old notions of righteousness?
Just a late-Saturday thought: what was the best part of what those adopted and non-adopted kids had with that generous and wonderful couple? A loving relationship in which they were welcome, secure, and valued. The inheritance meant almost nothing compared to that, right?
I like the Morse code story a lot .. my sermon title is "The Voice of God". What keeps us from hearing and recognizing it?
kbc in sc
an early contribution mentioned including a renewal of baptismal vows in the worship service by congregants putting their hands in a bowl of water.
My mind visualized this and went a little further...If we believe that Christ lives WITHIN each of us, then we might imagine that our hands might be the John...liberating the Christ WITHIN us.
Throught the laws of time and space in the land of chronos we are born, we live and we die. In the land of Kairos, God's time, the cycle happens many times,....through many years, seasons and even in a single day.
Touching water in a worship service and allowing the chronological part of us to dampen the kairological part of us might allow God to touch us in one of God's kairos-logical, un-lawful, mysterious ways.
I would like to think that I would have the courage to really get wet!....take the time, in the presence of others to allow God's mystery to BE. Kaiross
Thank you Eric...I am pushing forward with annointing and commissioning for service...The Spirit Hovered over the waters at the beginning of creation and now the Spirit hovers over the water again...A "new creation" or order...Again, the power of God...Jesus as the new David, the new king "ordained"/annointed by the prophet John of priestly lineage...Are we who are baptized on "Active Duty", in the "Reserves" or "AWOL" from service in the most high-powered special forces, commissioned to bring about God's kingdom and restore peace in the world...emphasizing commissioning to oppose the ways of the world and go against the flow as Jesus did...Song that came to mind: ON THE WINGS OF A DOVE by R. Ferguson On the wings of a snow-white dove He sends his pure clear love A sign from above On the wings of a dove (Chorus)
When troubles surround us, When evils come The body grows weak, The Spirit grows numb. When these things beset us, He doesn't forget us. He sends down his love on the wings of a dove.
When Jesus went down to the river that day He was baptized in the usual way And when it was done, God blessed His son. He sent him his love on the wings of a dove.
When Noah had drifted on the flood many days He searched for land in various ways. Troubles, he had some, but wasn't forgotten. He sent him his love on the wings of a dove.
At the dinner table we were discussing baptism as a commissioning for service, a call for everyone to do the work God has called them to do. Out of the mouth of babes (12 year old): If we are part of the family of God, and not merely his employees, does that mean that our "service" is like "chores" that must be done or the " whole house gets "dirty" "? Is our "allowance" our continued forgiveness from sin and a share of the inheritance of God? TEA
Hello from Orlando, I just discovered this site and it saved my life in a busy week. I don't usually preach from the lectionary but life situation sermons. However this week I felt strongly led to this passage on the baptism of Jesus. I used the following outline to talk about the baptism of Jesus. He was baptized for his identification with sinners; he was baptized as a symbol of his consecration to his ministry; and he was baptized to receive the affirmation of God of him as the beloved son. I was able to use the story told by Heather Elkins and passed on Ken from WV. I also used the story by Dr. Craddock. Of course I added my own material but don't have time (or space) to send it. Thanks much. Harry
I'm running aground on this sermon....talking about the three movements present in the baptism of Jesus: a single-minded commitment to do God's will; empowerment by the Spirit; and the affirmation or anointing by God, in God's own voice. Can't seem to come up with any lively illustrations. Help!!!
PS...That call for help comes from Nancy in NY
Nancy in NY,
hope this humorous illustration helps to show that baptism takes commitment (not all rivers were warm and, besides, the Baptist baptized in a pretty rugged and relatively inaccessible area):
In his 1995 autobiography, In the Arena, Charlton Heston describes making The Greatest Story Ever Told in November of 1963. Heston appeared as John the Baptist. Director George Stevens had chosen to film the baptism in Glen Canyon, Arizona, on the Colorado River. Heston points out that in November the water temperature was in the forties. It made for some interesting reactions as the hundreds of extras were immersed, one by one, in the cold Colorado. "As they came up, gasping and wild-eyed, the cameras conveyed pure, heartfelt epiphany."
It took several days to shoot the scene. Heston remarks that they "baptized" around sixty a day. He suspects the real Baptist did better. So, after several days of standing in cold water dressed in a bearskin, he got to pr