The Epiphany Season is filled with revelation, the uncovering of an open secret! Someone has suggested that as Jesus descended into the water he took on all the sins of humankind, bearing the sinfulness of all: the sinlessone takes on all our sins in order to save us from ourselves. What does His baptism mean to him? Is Jesus simply affirming his cousin's Johns ministry, or is it here where he assumes the christhood. Is this baptism about personal salvation or about a call to mission to be a light in the darkness. How does our baptism and Jesus' relate? Does my baptism (with faith, water and the Holy Spirit) save me or is it my marching orders to ba faithful disciple, a pilgrim in the Way?
tom in ga
Seeing Jesus coming to be baptized is like seeing your pastor outside of a church situation for the first time. They just seem out of place; John basically asks Jesus, "What are you doing here?" But then, when you think about it, Jesus, who comes to become fully human, should start where all of us start -- in the water of Baptism. He becomes fully like us, so that we can become fully like Him -- Spirit filled, love and pleasing to God.
Bill in FL
I have an idea I'm playing with a little early--a family in my church is adopting their foster child. They want to wait until he is legally his before they have him baptized, just in case it shouldn't go through for some reason. Their case worker told them that they could baptize him, but they are waiting just the same. I had lunch with them on Sunday, and someone brought up the subject of baptism. Janice (foster mother) again explained that they were going to wait. I said, "Oh, come on, I'd love to do an illegal baptism!"
We laughed, but I got to thinking about that today. If we take "illegal" to mean "wrong," then baptism is never illegal. It is fitting in with Matthew's definition of righteousness, which, I believe, is obeying God's will.
That's as far as I've gotten. If anyone has any thoughts, please share!!!
LW in KS
Oops.....The 2nd sentence should read, "They want to wait until he is legally THEIRS (instead of his)..... lw in ks
I've always thought that our salvation comes from the acceptance of Jesus Christ. More specifically, accepting his sacrificial death, as God's perfect lamb, for the atonement for our sin.
Sin separates us from God. Christ's blood is that filtration system that cleanses us from sin and through that filter, God the Father sees us as unblemished, and only the unblemished can enter into the purity of God's presence. Our impurity (sinfulness) would be consumed by God's purity (holiness) unless we are made pure first.
Jesus Christ purifies us so that we might enter into God's presence. Our acceptance of this saves us. And I believe our acceptance of it is defined as a process that includes repentance and transformation, acts of the will that are greatly influenced by our submission to God's Holy Spirit.
Baptism is that which we do because Jesus has commanded us to and because it symbolizes that purifying process. Baptism does not save us. Jesus Christ does.
This is foundational and saving faith. Though a sinner, I'm made righteous by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Thanks be to God,
Rick in Va
As I look at this scripture, one of my first thoughts is about the water. My youngest son likes looking in the water and seeing his own reflection. When I think about this passage, I am reminded that Christ looked on the waters of his baptism and saw not his own reflection, but all of humanity's reflection. He did all of this for us... to be in solidarity with you and me. Joseph in SC
Re: "illegal baptism" I remind everyone that the term "believers' baptism" is a phrase derived from the old King James reference Acts 8:37. That is a reference which is not found in the earliest texts. So often I hear people say one cannot be baptized until they are a "believer." Look up Acts 8:37 in the newer translations and you will not find it. That verse came from unknown sources long after original texts. Restricting baptism to adult believers, I feel, is not supported by the Bible. Too often we read of people being baptized "and their family." Any thoughts on preaching on the who, what ans why of baptism? Revup
rick in va: i read your statement that our salvation comes from acceptance by Jesus Christ and assumed you mean that we had to accept Christ in order to be saved. but baptism is a way of demonstrating that our salvation comes from Jesus Christ's accepting us. sue
Sue,
I wonder if you might explain your comments a bit further. I'm not sure I understand. I believe you're saying that our baptism is God's way of showing how Christ accepts us... Please help me with that, I'm not making the connection.
I see baptism as an act of obedience by which we 'put on' Christ (Gal. 3:27). I see it as a means for all believers to experience unity in that baptism brings down the barriers that divide and unites us in Christ.
Kim is a friend of mine who experienced Christ in a very real way when she was baptized. She was fully immersed as an adult and she tells of seeing her sins floating in the water as she was raised out of it. Baptism symbolizes the purifying of our old nature and the birth of our new one.
Yet it is Christ, working in us as we submit our wills to His, who sanctifies and justifies us, not the symbolic act of Baptism.
Baptism is important, as Greg Koukl (http://www.str.org/) puts it, in this way:
"In the New Testament there were no "altar calls." Instead, baptism was the public focal point of conversion in the early church (though I don't believe Scripture teaches that baptism actually saves you). It served to protect against substituting mere intellectual assent for genuine faith, and it can serve the same function today."
In other words, Baptism is a great way to publicly take ownership of our faith, to acknowledge Christ before others rather than simply think about or intellectualize faith individually.
Baptism is faith in action. This is one reason why I think infant baptism, widely practiced in my own denomination (Episcopal) is problematic. The infant is completely passive and unawares. Although there are benefits to infant baptism for the community and family of the child (especially if they all live up to their baptismal vows to raise the child as a believer), I worry about the effectiveness of this for the infant.
My own family takes infant baptism very seriously, and then once it has taken place, they go back to rarely attending services and being marginally faithful to Christ.
Rick in Va
rick, the distinction i would make is "who does the work in baptism?" in my view, the Holy Spirit does the baptizing; the human is baptized. in infant baptism, the parents (or others) take vows that in essence promise that they accept Christ and that they will model Christ for the child. your observation that all baptized Christians do not take their baptism seriously is one with which i can agree; i have seen plenty of examples myself.
my understanding (a little dated) of baptism in the early church is that it was the means by which the church was formed. those who were baptized became part of the family of the church. sue
Thanks Sue...
I believe we're in agreement... which might endanger your standing with some on the DPS..
;-)
Rick in Va
I appreciate what has been said about families who have their children baptised and then you don't see them again (it happens a lot in our congregation too) - but don't write them off just yet!
I was baptised as a child, but never taken to church later by my family. I married in church, and became a Christmas and Easter attender. My two sons were baptised, and yet I stayed a C&E attender. Over the next few years, I occasionally attended church and each time, it seemed there was a baptism, and each time came the words to the congregation "live out your own baptism".
I was confirmed at the age of 32, and started to become involved in the life of the church, including becoming an elder and Sunday School teacher.
Through regular bible study and church attendance, baptism now means much more to me than it did at the time, but I may never have gotten to this place without that infant baptism. I think we have to accept that baptism is a sacrament through which God's grace is given. We can never know what it means to the parents of those infants baptised, and when it may come to fruition. If we are welcoming enough as congregations, then maybe we can keep those families coming back (while recognising that in a lot of cases we may never be able to do enough).
I think the same can be said about a lot of God's gifts - we often appreciate them more at a later date, rather than when they are given (and the same can be said for Jesus' death on the cross - the disciples didn't immediately recognise the significance, but that doesn't lessen the gift).
Mary in Australia
Baptism, though it marks a relationship between an individual and God, is also a community event.
Just as John and the others surrounded Jesus, so today a congregation gathers around the one being baptized and hears those words spoken to him/her "this is my child, the beloved, with whom I am well pleased."
In an infant baptism, that places a responsibility on the part of all gathered to help that child come to know him/herself as God's beloved.
And in an adult baptism, the charge to the congregation is the same - to help that individual as their journey continues to claim the name and identity of a beloved child of God - not an easy thing to do with the tapes most of us carry around. Not easy for us to do for others either - as often we try to insist that another's journey of faith follow the same path ours has.
Seems to me that this scripture is suggesting that this identity - the recognition and acceptance of this intimate relationship between human and God is the very essence of righteousness.
What a difference it makes in my life in those all too rare moments when I can remember that I am a beloved child of God - that I don't need to compete for attention or love or approval. My death grip on life loosens, I can laugh at my failures and foibles, I can risk. Don't know what I'd do without the soul friends in my life who help me remember it. What a great beginning for a journey of faith. MaryS
It was the summer after my first year in seminary. My best friend from high school had come home for a family reunion, and the whole family was coming to their old church (now mine, too) to have the two young boys of hers baptized. They took up the first three or four pews. I had gone to the bakery to be sure the congregation enjoyed a festive coffee hour in honor of the two newest members of the whole church of Christ. An Episcopal service, we broke for the "peace" before we began communion. Those little boys could now take communion for the first time, having been baptized! I believe we sang, "Breathe on Me, Breath of God." As we greeted one another during the peace, the roar of automobile engines was unmistakable. As I looked at the parking lot, I saw the entire family pulling out -- they were off to brunch!!!
HW in HI
If families and infants are being baptized and then never darken the door of the church, then I think two things are happening. Those being baptized or desiring the child to be baptized, are not being counseled on the seriousness of the act that they are about in engage (whether it is believer's baptism or infant baptism. and the church is not living up to its vows made in baptism. I disagree with some of the statements that it is our baptism. UMC says that is it is a sign act of God which means that God is the force in baptism and the UMC says that the vows made by parents and churhc obligate the parents and church to certian responsibilities in accepting the child or believer. They are to live the Christian life before the child, help the parents in the Christian raising of the child, help the believer grow in the Spirit. I have no qualms about "getting on" to parents who stop coming to church with their children. One lady would not keep us inform about the progress or lack of progress in her child's ailment. I told her, "Listen, that baby was baptized in this church. This church said they would care and pray and support and affirm you and that baby. You have to give the church a chance to show their love. You have got to let the church get involved in some way in helping you and your family shoulder some of the burden." If the church takes those vows seriously for a baptized infant or believer, then they cannnot let these new ones fall through the cracks or just leave them alone. I was baptized as a young adult and I remember my baptism vividly and it was a tremendous turning point in my life and I am telling you, it was more than just a declaration of witness or water running down my back, BUT I would trade it for Christian parents who would have had me baptized as an infant and raised me in church. I didn't darken the doors of the church until I could drive myself. And I have often thought that my calling to be a preacher was a mistake since I didn't have that church upbringing. There were so many more qualified than me. Parents need to be counselled as to what infant baptism means for their child and their and the church responsibility in the history and future of that child. Sorry for being so long, but I'd be a little cautious before I blame parents and people for not living out their baptism. STAN in TN
Stan in TN:
OK, point well taken. I for one am not interested in baptizing where there is no interest in a committment, rather - checking off the list: stroller (X), crib (x), pre-school sign up (x) baptism (x) baby gym (x) etc. But an amazing number of parents are willing to do what we ask to get the kid baptized, and then disappear, no matter how much we call, cajole, etc.
I also want to say this. You may think there are plenty others well qualified that God should have called. I have come to believe that something about being called leaves us feeling woefully inadequate. Oh, well. Perhaps, just at the moment, we're the best God's got! (scary thot)
HW in HI
There seems to be a little too much emphasis on how we feel or how committed we are or how much the Parents are committed to fulfilling out their promises in Baptism. We tend to forget this is God's show. Baptism is a sign of what has already happen in Jesus Christ. Grace has been offerred. The screaming baby who has no idea what is going on, is being received into the church--Receiving a new name --Christian. Later he or she might reject that name for another. But at the moment of their baptism Christ is calling them to be a part of the church. Christ is reminding all of those who witness that act-- that Christ was the one who choose us, not the other way around. So infant baptism makes a strong theological statement. It is pure, undeniable, grace! There is nothing we do to earn, to choose, to be worthy of it, it is just given to us.
John in PA
Greetings all in this New Year!
I'm not preaching this week, but I'm enjoying the discussion already.....thank you to the poster who reminded us that baptism is a community event, an occasion of sacred covenant between God, those being baptized (or their parents), and the Christian community into which they are being welcomed. The congregational commitment is an important part of our baptism liturgy. For this reason, I have only once conducted a baptism service outside of Sunday worship (I felt the circumstances warranted it). Where the "unchurched" folks who come seeking baptism for their children are concerned, I struggle with the same concern expressed by (I think) HW in HI.....are we just another item on the baby's to-do list? Or is this family truly seeking a place in the household and family of God?
I tend to come out on the side of welcoming in.......with the hope that the mischievous work of the Holy Spirit, and some pastoral follow-up by the congregation will encourage young families to stay around (at least long enough for a cup of coffee!). We have several young families joining our midst whose babies were baptized 3-4 years ago.......there's hope in that!
SueCan
Jesus came for John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance. Jesus told John that it was proper for him to be baptized by John "to fulfill all righteousness." I have been reading your discussion about baptism being about relationship, and it seems to me that that is correct. It is about relationship to God, to a congregationk, and the Church (with a capital "C". But the phrase "to fulfill all righteousness" still comes back to me, and I wonder if fulfilling all righteousness has to do with those relationships. The Isaiah text speaks of not growing faint until justice is established in earth. This also seems to speak of relationship. It seems that proper relationship is more important than "doing it right" or at the right time. Baptism seems to be about being in faithful relationship, regardless of our limitations and errors. Somehow the movie "Groundhog Day" comes to mind where the main actor has to keep reliving the day over and over until he "gets it right." I don't know how this all fits together, but I think I see a connection between the two texts. They both seem to point to relationship and faithfulness. DL in NE
Rick in VA
Thanks for your stubbornly conservative voice. What else would us liberals have to discuss without you! Actually I find it interesting that two Episcopals have voiced negative opinons of Infant Baptism. I thought Infant Baptism was necessary part of a "high" Sacramental theology.
John Wesley expressed the opinon once that Infant Baptism was at the heart of the Methodist theology. And our Discipline tells us to "dilligently exhort all parents to have their children baptized".
...I was baptized as an infant but then while in college I was in Church of Christ circles and they insisted on my being baptized by immersion, which I did "in order to fullfill all righteousness", not because I thought I needed to be immersed, but just to make them feel more comfortable about it. Maybe that's what Jesus was doing?
...Actually, vs. 3:16 says this baptism is NOT symbolic. Something actually happens; the Spirit comes down. Its probably not correct to say that "baptism saves us". Better would be "we are saved through Baptism". Baptism is the way that God chooses to make Christ's grace available to humanity (ie. through the Church).
...Baptism is a liturgy not just an event. In Baptism we confess our sins, profess our faith, and are initiated into a community. It is through this process that God's grace is appropriated into our lives savings us, redeeming us, healing us...
BS in NC
The issue of infant baptism is a sticky one: We are all aware that prior to the 4th century adults became catechumens ("seekers") in preparation for Holy Baptism. It was at least a three year process. At that time, when one was a catechumen they could receive a Christian Marriage and be buried with the Rites of the Church as a Christian. The reason children were not baptized was that this was serious business - to be branded with the sign of the Cross was a sentence to death in a world that was hostile to Christians. In order to prevent children from being sacrificed, baptism was held at arms length from them so that they would be safe until they could make an adult decision. Look at young Origen who was disappointed that he could not be a martyr!!! When Constantine came to power something happened - the world was Christianized and it was OKAY to be a Christian. Safe and comfortable. At this time infants of Christian parents were received for Baptism.
The isssue today is that we live in a post Christian culture - people bring children for Baptism because it is the thing "to do" - "to have them done!" - as it were. There is very little thought that goes into this. Parents really don't know what they are doing. They put up with instruction, but I doubt if they fully understand. Baptism is not a dedication it is an adoption procedure through which a child becomes God's child.
Many churches are returning to the Catechumenate in order to awaken the mystery of death and resurrection once again in the life of those desiring Baptism or Confirmation. It is providing an opportunity for people to see more deeply than the cultural implications and to discover perhaps for the first time something about life in Christ. As a minister of the gospel, I cannot turn any one away who comes to receive this gift. One of the things I tell parents, when they bring their infant children, is that the action of "giving the child" to the baptizing minister is the action of letting their children go; and when the child returns to them this child is no longer their possession, but belongs to God.
Now lets get on with the Baptism of our Lord - what is its Christological meaning?
tom in ga
BS (Barbara Streisand??) in NC,
Thanks for the encouragement but be forewarned, encouraging me might put you at risk for receiving hate mail and calls for therapy.
By the way, two Episcopalians agreeing on anything is a supernatural event in and of itself, thus proving the existence of the Divine.
As for the Christological meaning of Jesus' baptism, well I stick with the tried and true understanding that this was the public affirmation and beginning of His earthly ministry...
Rick in Va
HW in HI,
I has reached the point re: baptism that when someone calls and asks to have their "kid done" I ask if they want the child "rare, medium or well-done?" the level of commitment will determine the answer. Children who are brought to church a remain as accepted members of the Body are well-done. The ones that sneek out after the "water part" offend the folks who just mad a commitment to the child and its family. A similar thing has happed to a couple of times. It makes me wonder what the understanding of Baptism for these folks?
Allan in Me.
HW in HI,
I has reached the point re: baptism that when someone calls and asks to have their "kid done" I ask if they want the child "rare, medium or well-done?" the level of commitment will determine the answer. Children who are brought to church a remain as accepted members of the Body are well-done. The ones that sneek out after the "water part" offend the folks who just mad a commitment to the child and its family. A similar thing has happed to a couple of times. It makes me wonder what the understanding of Baptism for these folks?
Allan in Me.
Baptism as sacrament= "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace"! The sacrament belongs to God and is instituted by the "covenant people of God". God's breath, mystery, living presence, and grace is really/objectively/subjectively "in" this initiation ritual. The life/death dynamics comprising the forces of growth in the unfolding drama of our personal history/life story are expressly and implicitly engaged or released creatively. A reliving of sacred history occurs in the life of Jesus as well as our own life. The recapitulation of Moses crossing the "sea of death" victoriously "to live", or the great flood of new creation and new covenant with Noah, comes to life for Jesus and for us. The sacrament belongs to the "covenant community", not just to an individual in isolation, with all of its sacred story/history. The sacrament is the link/connection between the individual's unfolding drama and the destiny of the people of God, including past history and futuristic emergence. The "new Moses" in Jesus the Christ emerges folowing baptism as Jesus continues to walk the glory road into the desert/wilderness for 40 days. Born again as the 'New Adam", Jesus leads the way to new being, new creation, new 'promised land', new Kingdom come. Such birthing, figured out by baptism, is an on-going phenomenological process in all of our personal histories, rather than being a frozen "event" belonging to a remote and forgotten past. The sacrament of baptism belongs to "community" and "history", not to an individual in isolation, and therefore it takes the whole village of Christendom, including from Genesis to Revelation, to "raise" a child of God. Emphasizing this point, Massey Shepherd, Jr. once stated: "Apart from the context of corporate church life, a sacrament is meaningless, if not, more extremely, a superstitious piece of magic." PaideiaSCO in LA
A helpful resource for those struggling with the concept of infant baptism: By Water and the Spirit study guide and document, UMC. It's not any easy piece to work through alone, but it is an excellent piece that gives historical, biblical and theological background.
A great general piece on the various functions of baptism: Will Willimon's "Remember Your Baptism" ... which, by the way, includes some great stories for preaching.
Gayle Felton, the foremost UM "expert" on baptism, says that Jesus' baptism is primarily an annointing for ministry (in the tradition of annointing priests, prophets and kings), and therefore that our baptisms are also our annointing for ministry. She explains it better than I, but that's her basic conclusion.
I'll try to post a couple of previous sermons that may offer helpful ideas in the sermon review section asap.
Thanks for great fodder so far! Kay
I may have read this on dps before - but notice how many of the OT guys come to the water and roll it back - Moses and the Red Sea, Elijah striking (the Jordan?) waters with his cloak . . and when Jesus walks down to the water . . he walks in. Gets wet. What does that do to us?
Have to share this - planning a six-week pulpit swap in the UK this summer! Good to see UK correspondents on dps . . my swap partner is of course on line! kbc in sc
Rick in Va,
I am intrigued by your difficulty with infant baptism. You refer to baptism as "faith in action," and I was wondering who you were thinking of as the great actor in the scene? Do we really choose Christ? Isn't a major aspect of baptism the abounding grace of God? I catch a little Schleiermacher here. Is faith based in the religious expereience - the feeling - or can't God be a tad more subtle. One problem the evangelical churches (early Methodists, Pietists, Moravians, etc. and not in the modern-day sense) had to face was in the second and third generations of believers. As "Saved" parents began to raise their kids it became clear the recognition of one's utter depravity became less important. Hopefully, a parent living in the faith could raise children who from childhood had a realtionship with God. Parents of the faith promise to raise thier children in the footsteps of Christ and then binds themselves together with the faith community (ie. church) to commit each other to the building of a righteous person. When this baptiszed child became a certain age he or she would take responsibility for livng righteously. Neither the community nor the elders (parents, grandparents, etc.) were off the hook once the child became an adult (what we try to call confirmation these days). Instead, each member of the community of faith committed him/herself to full-time Christian ministry and was responsible for the other members of the Body of Christ. Your friend Kim's experience notwithstanding, the ideal situation was that Saved Folk could raise Saved Kids who could raise Saved Kids and so on and so on. Does this really happen? You bet ya. Unfortunetly, pastors, churches, and "new converts" seem to feel the need to over-emphasize the Experience of contact with God. For John Wesley's Methodists it's the Aldersgate experience of his heart "strangely warmed." The problem is that Wesley himself never put much stock in the experience as proof of grace. He left it out of some of his memoirs, and never looked to Aldersgate as the turning point in his life. World Religions Professor and writer Houston Smith, also a United Methodist (sort of), experimented with LSD to study religious experiences. He found teh drugs helped with the experiencing and feeling - you can experience a lot of things on certain narcotics. It did not, however, do anything for religious behavior. The feeling wasn't especially important if nothing was there to back it up. So what does that say about Baptism? Perhaps that the sprinkling, dousing, submerging, or - my personal favorite - baptism by water gun has nothing to do with the meaning of baptism. I can promise you, if you submerg someone they will feel more than if you sprinkle. If you get them at 16 or 18 or 45, they will feel more than if you dip when they are 6 months. The activity going on in baptism is all God's. You are called, choosen. Your response is important, but don't believe you've really had that much to do with the decision. Baptims is also communal, as all of us are bound together in covenant. My congregation baptized a small child while another church do so to an adult. Each of these is bound together and initiated into God's covenant. So what was Jesus' baptism in relation to our own? Good question. But beware that we don't fall into the traps Schleiermacher laid out for us. Feeling is important, but God's Power is hardly limited to the tingling of nerves as the cold water strikes the skin. LSD will help "feel" religious, but covenantal righteous living is where we find the Gospel lived. PWinPA
tom in ga- I'd check that again. Yes, the three year preparation time for adults was standard, but children were also batized. We won't find the difinitive answer in the bible or the tradition to completely over-rule the other. Sorry. Further, the "believers' baptism" which is what many adult baptisms are called is really quite the opposite of baptism, isn't it? In believer's baptism we celebrate the believer when we should be proclaiming the righteous spirit. Further, the rite of Christian Marriage does not go as far back as the 4th century. A couple were simply married. LAter during the Middle Ages when only the priest could read marriage records were kept in the church. Then civil marriages were performed just outside the church. Soon, they moved inside - although from the very beginning marriage was within the context of the worship service and not some seperate ceremony. As for christian burial, which I am now humbly asking this question: If only the baptized could receive this rite what happened to all the children, teens, etc. who died before being allowed to be baptized? They didn't simply dump the kids in a big hole did they? Yuck! PWinPA
tom in ga- I'd check that again. Yes, the three year preparation time for adults was standard, but children were also batized. We won't find the difinitive answer in the bible or the tradition to completely over-rule the other. Sorry. Further, the "believers' baptism" which is what many adult baptisms are called is really quite the opposite of baptism, isn't it? In believer's baptism we celebrate the believer when we should be proclaiming the righteous spirit. Further, the rite of Christian Marriage does not go as far back as the 4th century. A couple were simply married. LAter during the Middle Ages when only the priest could read marriage records were kept in the church. Then civil marriages were performed just outside the church. Soon, they moved inside - although from the very beginning marriage was within the context of the worship service and not some seperate ceremony. As for christian burial, which I am now humbly asking this question: If only the baptized could receive this rite what happened to all the children, teens, etc. who died before being allowed to be baptized? They didn't simply dump the kids in a big hole did they? Yuck! PWinPA
It seems to me that the two foci of 1) Jesus' baptism as a commissioning and 2) an empowerment for ministry are relevant and will preach in light of our commissioning and empowerment for ministry in our baptism. This placement in the cycle as our first Sunday of Epiphany seems to bring in the obvious truth that at Jesus' baptism the secret is out. This is God's beloved son. Together with the first two realities it seems that our baptism, our adoption, our empowerment that the secret of our identity should also be out, Therefore, we become contemporary "epiphanies", manifesting the reality of who we are and who Jesus is in and through us . Another marginally related thought. I read somewhere that a contract is a document of mutual distrust. It seems to me a Covenant is a document of mutual trust( marriage and baptism). If so, what does that say about the grave of God in the light of the trivial understandings many parents have regarding baptism and how God's grace may be a work in ways unknown or recognized by the likes of dps folks, mere mortals. This is my first attempt to add to the discussion and I appreciate the contributions and even agree with most.RRinNC
oops, line eight should read, "grace"not grave. Boy, the c and v are sooooo close. I wish I'd taken typing in Hight School instead one of those subjects I never use.RR
oops, line eight should read, "grace"not grave. Boy, the c and v are sooooo close. I wish I'd taken typing in Hight School instead one of those subjects I never use.RR
The question, it seems to me, is "WHO is acting in baptism?" If we see things through our own perspective only- we come for baptism,or we bring the infants, or we make the vows, or we ask the questions, then we are missing something important. In the text, it is God who is acting. In the ministry of Jesus it is God who is acting. In our lives- adult, teen, infant,or whatever stage of life we are in, it is God's action through Jesus, and God's ministry through us that we are celebrating. Baptism is a reminder that Jesus has done for us what none of us could do for ourselves- Will Willimon makes the point pretty impressively in several places, that all of us are as helpless as the infant in arms when it comes to the relationship with God that we affirm in baptism. God takes each of us as tenderly as we pastors take the infants, and God blesses us just as tenderly. Then we add the role of the community of faith- the rest of us who have been taken and held by God and blessed in the same way. We strengthen and build each other up and offer help for each other. After most of the infant baptisms that I have taken part in lately, I have taken the child on a "tour of the sanctuary," walking and talking and showing the child to the congregation, and the congregation to the child. As I walk, I talk to the child, (and to the congregation) concerning the vows that the congregation has reaffirmed with the parents. I tell the child that the congregation is there for the child to count on. I also mention that the time will come when the congregation will be counting on the child for help, strength, and blessing in years to come. (It was at this point in one service that the child decided to start crying! Is there a sermon in that? Anyhow, baptism is God's action, followed by our response- as individuals and as a community of faith. GFinSC
PW,
I've responded to your last post over on the discussion site.
Rick in Va
Greetings, fellow earthlings...
This has been a real stimulating discussion. I am applying this discourse and working it out over on the Acts page. The conversion and call of Paul is really speaking to me. Come on over!
Preacherlady
Baptism is indeed sacred and a free gift but has it seemed odd to anyone else that the gospels never tell of Jesus baptizing anyone?
Rick in VA: A few thoughts re: your response to Epiphany over at Discussion. Just Musing in Ontario
In many ways, the message of Jesus was "simply" the same as John's - repent and turn back to God. His baptism marks his decision to pursue a right relationship with God. It is a sign of humility. We are baptized as a sign of our proper relationship with God, and thereby, with Christ. Ogremtb - PA.
None of us can ever be of the same spiritual maaturity of the Christ. Therefore I am forever thankful for God's gracious actiion, begun by Christ, acted upon by my parents, and confirmed by God. It took NO action upon my part, it took NO work upon my part. And its mark is still there. Thanks be to God. A friend in Maryland.
I'm new here so be kind. I've all of your commentarys extremely interesting. In my travels, I have seen various and sundry forms and rationals for baptism. The UMC states that baptism is of God and shows our acceptance into His church and kingdom. Other denominations place the ownership totally on the baptizee, as a public confession of faith and willingness to join into the fellowship fo God's church.
Perhaps, baptism is a two-way street. God and the church specifying their responsibilities to the new member as well as the new members public demonstration of loyalty to God.
Both would answer what Jesus meant by fulfilling righteousness.
As for infant baptism: I really believe that if parents truly plan to raise their child in the church, infant baptism isn't needed. The child will grow into the Lord and eventually accept Him personaly. It is the parents that are not likely to raise their child in the church that need to have their child baptised. Sort of like a computer "tagging" of the infant for the Lord. Even if the child doesn't know it, the Lord does. Kind of like a parental assist to previenent grace.
Just some thoughts,
Glenn ><>
I think that we get carried away in judging parents who have their children baptized and then do not always come to church. Have we asked them when they come if they are going to bring the child to church? I know that I baptized a child in my first charge whose parents explianed to me that they were both in the service industry and could not come to church on Sundays, but if they ever got to where they could they would. I baptized the child, within 6 moths they were both in a place where they could come to church, and bring the child. Before I left, her mother had started coming and was in our choir, her father who never attented church was coming, and so was her sister, sister-in-law, and the sister-in-law's mother, and grandmother. Now I am not saying that it always happens that way, but I do believe that God's grace works in God's time and not yours or mine. When I had my son baptized I was also in a place where I worked on weekends, and it took years before I could be out of that postion but I did start to bring him when I could. Jon Wesley said that Baptism was a mark or a channel of the grace of God through Jesus Christ. I believe that when we baptise we do so into the family of God, and I do not believe even if the parents are the worst in the world we should deny the child the right to the family. When they are old enough they then make the vow for themselves when they are confirmed. I think that this text was Christ being baptised for all of those who had not been baptised in those times and for all of us who are never baptised in these times. Just as he took on all our sins so he also extended that grace to all of us. Well, now that I have gone on about a subject we all feel very differnetly about it is time to go.
Pastor Belle Downsville NY
We have a family that rarely comes to church. They are the grandchildren of former pillars. They have their children baptized in the church. They are all, except one baby, congenitally hearing impaired. The one child comes to Sunday school. That forced us to think about how open and affirming we want to be about folks with disabilities. We now have a signer in Sunday School all the time. The other kids are learning to sign. The are completely accepting. We have a signer in church for all intergenerational services and major events. The parents are coming to church occasionally. The grandparents are coming occasionally. We are looking at the possible ways to have an outreach ministry to the hearing impaired. Seems to me God works in wonderful ways even if it starts out with what seems like a one-shot baptism.
Happy new year to all and Hi to Doug in Riverside.
Jane in Lenox
Interesting that both the Is & Mt passage talk about righteousness. Mt grounds righteousness in a particular "right" relationship, Is then shows the fruit of that relatioship - justice - a light to all. We are a sign of God's covenant. Scary.
But while we fail, grow faint, get crushed, the Isaiah text says God doesn't. Baptism links into a connected body through which God works.
We have a baptism on Sunday - great timing huh? And in addition one of the elderly woman in the church is presently dying - probably will not live to Sunday. What a gift to have the visible bookends. To see 4month RJ surrounded by parents who really do want to support him in becoming what God created him to be -- and then to move to Lois' bedside with the parish nurse to coach and support this very aware/awake/concious woman as she moves through death into her next phase of life.
She knows that she is in a holy time. She talks of her joys and her mistakes and the gift of community in helping her always move on to what is next. She is at great peace - but very much wants her "coaches" with her.
Reminds me what church is about. Helping people at all points in their life engage with God and journeying with them as that engagement brings healing/transformation
MaryS
In reading the discussions I noticed that few of us have really talked about the text. Baptism is obviously an issue that is important to us and is actually confusing to us.
In the text, it seems that the issue of "doing the proper thing" is something to deal with. Whoever mentioned their infant baptism and then their baptism into the Church of Christ because is seemed the proper thing to do, had it right.
I wonder if Jesus did regard baptism as a supernatual act, in and of itself. The decending of the Holy Spirit and God's voice of confirmation is more from Jesus's obedience then in the act of baptism itself.
Another thought: Sue and Rick's discussion demonstrated to me (and I hope to Sue and Rick) that despite their theological differences and their different "labels" for one another, they are both very much "in Christ".
DN in AZ
To Glenn re: "if the parents truly plan to raise their child in the church, infant baptism isn't necessary." Please, please remember parents are not always able to follow through on their plans. I am very emphatic at each pre-baptismal parents' meeting, and at the actual baptism that the entire congregation is taking vows to help raise this child in the church, so the child will one day accept Jesus Christ on their own. Your feeling that as long as the "parents plan" to raise the child as a Christian seems it to be adequate creates a lot of dangerous assumptions. What if the parents die? I would rather have an entire church full of relatives, adults and perhaps sponsors take those public vows than take any chances. I have heard of cases where children raised by foster parents ultimately found Jesus because someone in the church took those vows and saw they were kept many years later. I agree about the child being "marked," and see that as another way to insure the child's future salvation. revup
What does this text say about Jesus' baptism? That it was O.K. for him to be baptized by John. That Jesus' baptism was by water and Spirit (in Mt's account, only Jesus sees the Spirit descending like a dove). And Jesus' baptism was a Christological moment, represented by the voice from heaven naming him as God's beloved Son, with whom God was well pleased (cf. almost identical words in transfiguration, Mt. 17:5). In the Acts text for this week, Gentiles who hear Peter's preaching are first baptized by the Spirit (represented not by a dove, but by gift of speaking in tongues and extolling God), then receive water baptism--reverse order from Jesus' baptism. I appreciate the discussion and comments about baptismal practices, "drive-through" baptisms (my wife, who is also a UCC pastor, described a baptism she performed in her church in these terms--family left the building right after baptism). To Jane in Lenox: I'm familiar with the situation you allude to, and glad to see that patient and persistent outreach is bearing fruit. Really happy to hear about signing in Sunday School! I too am hesitant to baptize when I have doubts about family's understanding of, and commitment to, covenant. Yet I also hesitate to withhold baptism, knowing of instances where family does disappear for a while but eventually returns to faith community. I do draw the line at "private baptisms," though. I guess we just need to do the best we can to teach families about our theology and practice of baptism, about the elements of grace and covenant, and hope our teaching and our seriousness about the sacrament will sow a seed or two. (Am I mixing metaphors here?) If I remember my American church history correctly, I think we have here echoes and shadows of the half-way covenant controversy in an earlier century. Anyway, friends & colleagues, thanks for sharing your stories. And blessings on all who are celebrating baptisms this Sunday! Doug in Riverside
Mary S, I've posted a question about parish nurses on the discussion site. If you have any input, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! SueCan
I am working on this from another angle--that of the powerful symbolism of the River. We are invited to join Jesus at the river, this river that has been so much at the heart of the story of the people of God--this river that was the boundary separating the people from the promised land, this same river that mounted up in heaps in order for the people to cross over, this same river that for John the Baptist seemed to serve as symbol of the end of the old life and the beginning of a new life.
Along those lines, I remember a number of years ago seeing a wonderful documentary film called "Say Amen, Somebody," in which the great gospel singer Thomas Dorsey (not to be confused with big band leader Tommy Dorsey) talks about the series of tragic events that led him to write his most beloved gospel hymn, "Precious Lord, Take My Hand," which has in one of its verses, "At the river I stand/Guide my feet, hold my hand." Now I would like to tell that story, but I can't remember all the details. If anyone can help me out, I would be much obliged.
PT in NH
Re: Baptism, etc. I've actually been led in an entirely different direction on this sermon -- to the PSALM, believe it or not -- and its reminder that David, flawed, sexual preditor though he was, was still God's anointed ... his leadership was still intact ... redemption is always possible.
But responding to Doug's note about baptismal parents "returning", induldge me in a brief personal story. During what I now refere to as my "obligatory, young adult, lapsed phase" God blessed me with a beautiful baby boy. I had him duly "Christened" (at a private baptism on Easter Eve afternoon) followed by a very elegant tea for the family and godparents. The "lapsed phase" continued undisturbed. My second son was born three years later -- after three failed pregnancies -- and when I called the priest to have him baptized, he didn't hesitate for a second: re-arranged his schedule to accomodate my in-from-England family and Brian was baptized on Mother's Day. Six weeks later I was teaching VBS. Nine months later I was confirmed. A year later I was on the vestry ... and here I am -- fielding calls from lapsed young parents who want the baby "done."
Do I "do" them? You bet I do. And then I try to let God do the rest. Blessings, Susan in SanPedro
Baptism - an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace.
My friend, Jeff, tells this story.
"They had asked me to be on duty. I did not especially want to be - on duty, that is. After all, it was going to be over the holidays, and holidays, well … holidays are meant for the family. But, we were close friends and she was so excited about this birth and I WAS the hospital chaplain, so …
They admitted her. They knew it would be a difficult delivery and didn't want to take any chances, so they admitted her on a Monday evening. I took the night shifts for the week and because they wanted me there, I decided that I would sleep at the hospital. I figured that I would be there for one or two days, certainly no more than that. Of course, I was wrong. Babies being babies, she didn't give birth until Friday.
By this time I was exhausted. It was in the wee hours of the morning and I had just settled into my much too small cot for a well-deserved snooze when my beeper went off. It was time. Quickly I arose, threw on my greens and rushed to the delivery room.
It really didn't take me long to get there. Certainly not more than one or two minutes. But when I walked into the room, I knew something was wrong, terribly, terribly wrong. Where there should have been the warmth of new life, instead there was just the inanimate emptiness of cold linoleum and tile walls. Where there should have been the healthy wail of new birth, instead there was just the silence, the silence of shock and horror and loss. The silence soon broken by sobs of the mother and father, the heart-rending sobs.
I'm not sure I have ever felt so lost in all my life. What could I do? What could I say? I stood by them and held on to them and cried with them. It was all that I could do. And there we were, frozen into a tight circle of grief, clutching one another, holding on to one another's pain, holding on, for we could do no other.
After awhile, over the ticking of the clock, ever so softly, her voice broke the silence. "I want you to baptize my baby." And then louder and more urgent. "I want you to baptize my baby!" "Please, baptize my little girl, baptize our daughter."
The baby was dead. The baby was dead and in the Presbyterian Church, we don't baptize dead infants. We don't baptize dead infants.
But I did baptize my friends' daughter. I baptized her for the life that she was, the life that she is. I baptized her for the promise she represented. I baptized her because Christ had dwelled within that small body. I baptized her because she was a product of God's continuing grace within our lives, within the body of faith, within the realm of our human condition, and the love within this family. I baptized her because her life had brought meaning and hope and joy to this community, a community which extended beyond this event, beyond this family, beyond this moment. I baptized her because it was the right thing to do."
My friend, the friend who demonstrated love in the nightmare of this circumstance, understood sacrament. In that place at that moment, polity and debate and "proper" theological activity had no meaning. All that had meaning was Christ. And in that cold delivery room, immersed in the overwhelming pain, he proclaimed the promise of Christ and the joy of God. In that cold delivery room, immersed in the overwhelming pain, he proclaimed hope and life and love. He proclaimed God's grace.
And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."
Shalom my friends, Nail-Bender in NC
YES! All "rules" aside, I will still hang my hat on the old confirmation class answer: A sacrament is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. Nailbender's friend Jeff celebrated and hallowed that grace.
My theology professor told us that the Eastern Church views all of creation as sacrament, and our (clergy) role is to lift the veils from the ordinary, revealing the sacrament that is already there.
Preacherlady
07 JAN 98 Thanks all... this promised to be a fruitful discussion even if we went beyond the text! I'm pretty persistent about the importance of baptism. Someone, looking upon a wayward (requisite time of wandering?)adolescent/younger adult might conclude about his/her baptism (whether from infancy or later): "Well, it just never took!" God's work wasn't the problem! Luther (Martin, not `King, jr.) said something like "Gold is still gold even if a harlot wears it in dishonor". God doesn't mess up in cleansing, saving, anointing. And thanks, Pr. Belle, for the reminder of God's timing (often different from ours). I wonder if Jesus himself was a little surprised when the dove-like spirit alighted on him and a loud voice came? The Spirit is likely to surprise us in baptism--present in unique ways whether upon a baby or baby boomer. We know that the Spirit does come in baptism... and in other ways (inc. laying hands, Holy Communion, promise of Paraclete, etc). To the text, John wanted Jesus to baptize him, but we have no evidence that ever happened! Important as baptism is to us (and to God), why no evidence of John's baptims or that of other key New Testament figures? Hmm... just when we've got this thing figured out! Fred Craddock has some words that I often use as my final benediction... in light of our call to baptize, not knowing whether the parents and sponsors (I'm in the infant tradition, happily)will consider it just one more innoculation or a covenant to embrace and respond to: Live Simply...love generously. Serve faithfully...speak truthfully. Pray daily... leave everything else to God.
Peter in CA
07 JAN 99 (Did I put "98" in the last?!) Oh... I may go this direction: Jesus was not baptized as an infant (he was circumsised, of course... another story). He didn't come into existence via Mary and Holy Spirit conception but he became incarnate then... a physical, corporeal being. A baby boy, then man. So too (and I may alter my reading from the Hebrew Scriptures or add this to the Isaiah text) our "incarnation". According to Genesis 2 we are made physical beings (creatures, from "dust") and THEN are animated by the breath of God (2:7). Our bodies are important creations. And the things of this world. And with the Spirit's anointing we are prepared and empowered, chosen and called to be stewards of ourselves, others, God's creation. Whew. It's going to be hard to preach just one sermon this Sunday! Blessings to you all. (Oh, good point on GOD as the actor, GfinSC, but do you take your newly baptized on a tour of the sanctuary or the nave?;-) Peter in CA
Precious Lord is one of my favorite hymns. I didn't realize, however, that Tommy Dorsey had written it. If anybody had the skinny on the events leading up to its creation, I'd be thankful.
Tigger in ND
Jesus came to John to be baptized by him, John consents, Jesus is baptized, the Spirit of God descends and the Voice speaks. My question: Does John do any more baptizing, or is Jesus his last? I do not know of any record that John continues to baptize. It seems that Jesus is the last one in the water (of John’s baptism).
I found a story told by a pastor in OH (found on another preaching site) about the time “the river burned” in Cleveland with all the pollution on the water catching fire. There had been a lot of pollution (sin) dragged into the water by those seeking John’s baptism—and that is the water into which Jesus walks. Jesus is the last one in, and takes on himself all the sin (pollution). I can imagine how “gunk” in the water can stick. . . ) I know this is a BIG stretch, but it is an image I am experimenting with.
Any thoughts or critiques?
Of note, Jesus is led by the Spirit into the wilderness immediately following his baptism—an important context easy to lose sight of when we read only this short gospel passage this Sunday.
ml in pa
Interesting discussion of Baptism. I am focusing on the last verse, regarding who Jesus is and why he is good. God was pleased with him before he did anything. To me that's what Baptism is about, being rather than doing. How do you know you are good? Normally, it's because of what you do. That's life in the world, that's the law, reward and punishment and all that. But the Pauline Gospel says that you are good apart from works, simply because of who you are, an adopted child of God. This is grace. Every once in a while for the children's lesson I have the children gather around the font and do a little "repeat after me": "I am baptized. I am a Christian. I am now covered.... by the cross of Christ (sign of cross on self). I am forgiven.... of all my sins. I am adopted..... a child of God." "Children of the Heavenly Father" is a good hymn to accompany this. For people to find their identity in their being instead of their doing, and being not a father or a mother or a teacher or a plumber or any role, but being God's son or daughter forever, part of a royal priesthood and holy nation (a la Peter)-- that is a tremendous leap of faith and mental and attitudinal paradigm shift, and none of us ever really does it. But can't we try? After all, who are you? It's so unconscious, we rarely think about it, except perhaps in our teens or in times of great life-transition. Once in a while, the quest for identity comes out in a song, like the Logical Song from Supertramp's old album, "Breakfast in America". It goes, "I know it sounds absurd... please tell me who I am." If we have that pegged, then life is centred, for eternity. --- Jim from B.C.
The title for the message that I'm working on is "Standing in the Way of Love". As I was meditating upon this passage, I was struck by the statement that Jesus came to the Jordan "to be" baptized by John. In other words, this was Jesus' INTENTION in coming to John, it was Jesus' PLAN to be baptized since in doing so he would 'fulfill all righteousness'. God's incarnation celebrated at Christmas will fully be realized in Jesus' submitting to baptism. However, when he approached John, the Baptist tried to prevent him from being baptized because of his being unworthy. In essence, John was standing in the way of Jesus fulfilling his LOVE for all, trying to deter him from doing what was God's way of identifying with all human kind. I wonder how often we still try to prevent Jesus from accomplishing his will . . . how do we 'stand in the way of love' even as we justify what we are doing with humble confessions? We say, "I not talented enough to serve you God" or "I don't know enough to teach this class" or "I don't have enough to make a significant gift" All the while God's kingdom is coming, Jesus continues to do his will, walking in the way of love .... waiting for us to be faithful even with our flaws. I'm looking for other illustrations as to how we hinder Jesus from doing His will. Any suggestions?
Grace & Peace, The DDY_Lakeshore_Dean
The title for the message that I'm working on is "Standing in the Way of Love". As I was meditating upon this passage, I was struck by the statement that Jesus came to the Jordan "to be" baptized by John. In other words, this was Jesus' INTENTION in coming to John, it was Jesus' PLAN to be baptized since in doing so he would 'fulfill all righteousness'. God's incarnation celebrated at Christmas will fully be realized in Jesus' submitting to baptism. However, when he approached John, the Baptist tried to prevent him from being baptized because of his being unworthy. In essence, John was standing in the way of Jesus fulfilling his LOVE for all, trying to deter him from doing what was God's way of identifying with all human kind. I wonder how often we still try to prevent Jesus from accomplishing his will . . . how do we 'stand in the way of love' even as we justify what we are doing with humble confessions? We say, "I not talented enough to serve you God" or "I don't know enough to teach this class" or "I don't have enough to make a significant gift" All the while God's kingdom is coming, Jesus continues to do his will, walking in the way of love .... waiting for us to be faithful even with our flaws. I'm looking for other illustrations as to how we hinder Jesus from doing His will. Any suggestions?
Grace & Peace, The DDY_Lakeshore_Dean
To Nail-Bender in NC:
I ended up with tears streaming down my face when I read your latest posting. I'm glad you broke the rules - how could you do anything else? (After all, Jesus himself set precedents for rule-breaking)
Mary in Australia
To Nail-Bender in NC:
I ended up with tears streaming down my face when I read your latest posting. I'm glad you broke the rules - how could you do anything else? (After all, Jesus himself set precedents for rule-breaking)
Mary in Australia
To Nail-Bender in NC:
I ended up with tears streaming down my face when I read your latest posting. I'm glad you broke the rules - how could you do anything else? (After all, Jesus himself set precedents for rule-breaking)
Mary in Australia
To Nail-Bender in NC:
I ended up with tears streaming down my face when I read your latest posting. I'm glad you broke the rules - how could you do anything else? (After all, Jesus himself set precedents for rule-breaking)
Mary in Australia
Apologies everyone for the multiple posting - all I did was refresh the page with the Confirmation of my posting - and look what happened! (I won't do that again)
Mary in Australia
Dear Friends,
I'm greatful for the discussion this week. I have been encouraged by many of you. I have been drawn and resonate most closely with what John in PA, BSinNC, Peideia SCO in LA, PW in PA & RLinNC have contributed in particular.
In the last year and a half I have had several young families in my congregation leave the congregation I serve over differences in baptismal theology. It has been very difficult experience for me and many in the congregation - and difficult for some of those who left, too. Throughout I have attempted to affirm God's presence and grace in this act. It is hard to either not say it well or to have what seems to be the promise cradled there ignored or rejected in favor of waiting until some "decision" about it all can be made. (Though I know a signifcant segment of the Christian Church holds this view.)
Thinking back to last weeks Gospel - I'm grateful that I wasn't responsible for my physical birth and I don't take credit for it, neither do I take credit for my "spiritual" rebirth either. God has been intimately connected with both. And I'm grateful and relieved.
Grace and Peace, Jerry in MN
The title of my sermon this week is, "Who Am I?" The implication for last week's and this week's passage is Matt. telling us who Jesus is. You can almost hear the question in these passages.
I plan to look at what defines who we are. Culture, friends, and family all try to tell us who we are. The only important voice to hear is God's telling us we're God's beloved in who God is well pleased.
John in Ky.
i beleive baptism is our symbolically dying and rising to new life in Christ, an acceptance of that grace that God has already poured out for us. obviously, i don't do infant baptisms, but i don't rebaptise those who have been baptised as infants either.
however, where i am on this scripture is on the theme of epiphany - God appearing to us. and look how God chose to appear to us - not as a king on a balcony ( some of our pulpits are like balconies) but as one of us! down there in the crowd,as one who would serve us and love us, and die for us. it is kind of ironic our music for Sunday is mostly about exalting Christ, and the scripture is on how he didn't exalt himself.
then to be followers of Christ, we should look to the lowly to see Christ in them and love and serve them.
peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ, rachel
To the DDY
i love your approach! having people in our congregations make excuses on the basis that they are not worthy must be universal - across all denominational, theological boundaries. i certainly hear it enough. what happened to the good ole pauls who could say, "i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."? the other question is , how on earth do they think that we are worthy enough to preach? certainly not on my own.
grace, rachel
08 JAN 99
Title: "Certifiable". Objective: Remind and assure people of their salvation and righteousness. God is the one who does the certifying. Ephesians 2:8, John 3:16, Acts 10:34 are good supporting texts. I'm having one of my computer experts make little wallet-sized cards that state "________" is a child of God, with some graphics and I John 3:1a on one side. I'll pass these out to the children, during a children's sermon then to everyone else later. Regarding verse 15 of Mt 3, Joseph Sittler told a story about righteousness--relating mostly to that righteousness (genesis 15:6,Romans 4:6, etc) which is ours apart from works (as others have highlighted nicely). Seems Sitler was in Israel and his car broke down. He took it to the mechanic and when the work was done, the mechanic started it up and said: "Tzadic!" Literally, "Righteous!" (meaning: "It works!"). God does that. Baptism is more than a sign of that... it evidently does it too, as Jesus insisted upon baptism as necessary. The highest honor to be stamped not by the Angus Beef Council or the Postal Service as "Certified", but certified by Jesus Christ to be RIGHTEOUS! Peace to all... Peter in CA
I'm not preaching this week, but I like to check in with you all just for fun and just to keep me and my faith theologically fed, watered and walked [Yes, I'm a Theology Dog]. Watching you all peel off the layers of the baptism onion makes me remember my baptism in all of it richness and be glad!
Thought on the subject, why was Jesus baptized? I think one possibility is that Jesus' baptism served as a foreshadowing symbol of a part of his earthly ministry. When we are baptised, it is a kind of looking back and making the past a present reality for us. Perhaps for Jesus his baptism was a looking forward to and a way of owning his future. RevRake
To the anonymous contributor of January 5: It's quite possible that Jesus DID baptize. Check out John 3.22 if you don't believe me. Of course, this is modified by 4.2, which states that only his disciples baptized. Raymond Brown, suggests that 4.2 is an addition from a later redactor. C.H. Dodd says that 4.2 has a better claim of being an "editorial note" than anything else in the gospel except the ending, 21.24-25.
However one reads the passage, it is quite clear that early in Jesus' ministry and well before his death and resurrection people who were part of his "movement" were baptizing. This practice was undoubtedly derived from John the Baptist, and was more in the nature of his baptism of repentance than the later, post-resurrection Christian baptism, which was a baptism in response to faith, or, as John the Baptist himself put it, a baptism associated "with fire and the Holy Spirit".
Bruce on Pender Island, BC
One the things that struck me was that John the Baptist really didn't understand what he was doing when he baptised Jesus. Often we are called to do things for God that we think can only be done in certain situations, but instead we are called outside of those boundaries.
Bruce on Pender Island, BC
To the anonymous contributor on January 5: Some people believe that Jesus did baptise. John 3.22 certainly reads as though both Jesus and his disciples baptized. This baptism, very early on in his ministry, and well before the passion and resurrection, suggests that they adopted the practice from John the Baptist.
Of course, John 4.2 suggests that only Jesus' disciples baptized, but both Raymond Brown and C.H. Dodd see this as a comment from the redactor.
Whatever one thinks, the reality is that the Christian practice of baptism underwent a transformation in the light of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I return after a time away and the discussion about infant baptism stirs a comment. About a year and a half before the collapse of the Soviet Union, I discovered the fact that Mikhail Gorbachev was baptized as a child, perhaps even an infant. I shared with a staff member that "all will be well. He is already in God's hands." I had no doubts that good would happen. And it did! It gives ua a chance to love our enemies! sjs in WI
I want to thank Joseph of SC for his excellent contribution. I am preaching a series of doctrinal sermons in 1999, using the lectionary when it seems appropriate. This Sunday my topic will be: We Believe In Jesus. In this passage we see the perfection of Jesus revealed, for he did not need to confess his sins and repent. We see Jesus revealed as an obedient servant who was willing to take upon himself the sins of the world. Finally, we see Jesus revealed as the Son of God whose loving obedience made God smile.
I want to thank Joseph of SC for his excellent contribution. I am preaching a series of doctrinal sermons in 1999, using the lectionary when it seems appropriate. This Sunday my topic will be: We Believe In Jesus. In this passage we see the perfection of Jesus revealed, for he did not need to confess his sins and repent. We see Jesus revealed as an obedient servant who was willing to take upon himself the sins of the world. Finally, we see Jesus revealed as the Son of God whose loving obedience made God smile. J.D. OK
RR in NC Your typo was exactly right. The waters of baptism are the grave of God AND the grace of God. Going down into those waters means dying to the old self and allowing God to raise us up as new creatures. That's why infant baptism seems incongruous, since putting to death all those babies is a theological stretch. I'm glad my parents chose to dedicate me like Jesus' parents did, raised me in the faith, and bided their time till I asked to go down into the grave of God.
I was one of those UM pastors who rigorously affirmed the integrity of our vows, and refused to simply "do" babies to create a pleasant ceremony. I think I was too stern, having met many people who had their kids "done" casually, but later grew into spiritual giants.
I'm so glad we are not required to understand any of this, for I will never understand what God has done here. Anne in Providence
PT in NH Tigger in ND Songs of Zion, p. 172, says: Thomas A. Dorsey (1899- ) "began to compose gospel songs while still performing in blues and vaudeville. . . ." He wrote more than 400 songs. In 1932 his "first wife and only child died while he was touring." That week he composed "Precious Lord, Take My Hand." I've read elsewhere that he was notified while on tour that his wife had died in childbirth. Anne in Providence
John was taking the baptism of the Essene community out to the impure people (women included!) beyond their desert compound. When his baptism by water was succeeded by Jesus' baptism by fire, suddenly the community of the called-out ones exploded far beyond those boundaries to the world of Acts 20:34-35. This fits with several comments about the vows of baptism enlarging our community of support from just our parents to a far more diverse family in Christ. Anne in Providence
ml, my homiletics prof David Buttrick (Jr.) said that the Jordan River was actually such a polluted place during Jesus' lifetime that there were jokes about its filth. I've no idea where DB got this info; he never told us a source, but he's an excellent Biblical scholar so it's probably a trustworthy tidbit that might add something to your direction. Kay
Finally got a chance to post an old sermon focussing on baptism as annointing/commissioning for ministry. Has some (I think)interesting illustrations, particularly a great quote from MLK. Posted under gospel heading. Kay
My sister, who is Orthodox shared the following with me: Epiphany commemorates not only the coming of the three wise men but also the baptism of Christ in the Jordan. This second aspect of the feast is much emphasized by the Christian East, especially at the Great Blessing of the Waters, often celebrated on a river bank or seashore. Christ's baptism at the hands of John is seen as anticipating our own, and is given at the same time a cosmic significance: the Savior, himself sinless, enters the streams of the Jordan, thereby cleansing the waters and so imparting grace and redemption to the entire material creation.
St. Ephrem the Syrian writes: See, Fire and Spirit in the womb that bore you: See, Fire and Spirit in the river where you were baptized. Fire and Spirit in our baptism: In the Bread and Cup, Fire and Holy Spirit. In your Bread is hidden a Spirit not to be eaten, In your Wine dwells a Spirit not to be drunk. Spirit in your Bread, Fire in your Wine, A wonder set apart, yet received by our lips. How wonderful your footsteps, walking on the waters! You subdued the great sea beneath your feet. Yet to a little stream you subjected your head, Bending down to be baptized in it. The stream was like John who performed the baptism. In their smallness each an image of the other. To the stream so little, to the servant so weak, The Lord of them both subjected Himself.
On Epiphany a great miricle occurs every year. The Holy Spirit comes down upon the water and changes its natural condition. It becomes incorupt, that is, it does not spoil. It remains clear and fresh for many years. It receives the grace to heal illnesses, to drive away demons and every evil power, to guard people and their dwellings from every danger and to sanctify objects for use in the church or at home. Therefore Orthodox Christians drink of this Holy Water with reverence. Faithful Orthodox take enough Epiphany Water home so that it will last the whole year. They use it when needed: in case of illness, when upset and in need of comfort, etc. It strengthens the powers of the soul-if it is done with prayer and reverence.
Kay--
Thanks for your contribution on pollution. . . I'm still not quite sure where I will end up, but your response to my "experimenting" is appreciated.
ml in pa
I am a Luthern pastor in FW TX. First, thanks to Nailbender for his great stories and illistrations! (Where does the name "Nailbender" com from? <Tallan1234@aol.com>) Second, the baptism of Jesus is to" fulfill all reghtouesness" because the description of John's baptism for the forgiveness of sins was a theological problem for the gospel writers - so the reason for our baptism and Jesus' baptism is different at least on the level of forgiveness of sin. Ours is a baptism for the forgiveness of sin. His baptism was, I think, a "call" and annointing to public ministry. A call with which he continued to struggle in the desert. Third, it is sometimes astonishing to me that we are all still battling with Pelegius (and Semi-Pelegianism) who placed the focus for faith on what people do instead of on what God does. (Unfortunately there is still a debate over whether Pleagius was actually Pelegian or not.) Infant baptism, which is a part of the Lutheran tradition, insists that we do not decide to make God our God but that God first deciedes to make us his beloved children. (John 15:16) Any response (emotional or intellectual) is a response to what God has done first to us.I am aware that there is much diversity among Christians on this point . But when we preach we should perhaps struggle to validadte the truth in both the sacramental act of God as well as the truth of our faith-filled response to what God has done in baptism. Surely they can both be a part of the baptismal thelolgy and baptismal experience in any denomination. Fourth, we tend as Americans to be indivisualistic and Denominaitonal to the point that we forget that Jesus has to do not only with becoming Chrisitiians in baptism, but that we are baptized and given faith that we may have LIFE and have it abundantly. Baptism is the beginning of a new way to live - not simply a new way to believe. A simple illustration of the communal aspect of baptism that I use is that baptism is like God planting a tree - and those who vow to continue to expose the person to the things that bring about faith (God's Word nd the sacraments) are the ones expected to water the tree. Planting without watering will result in the tree's death. All of us, pstors, church members, parents, sponsors, need to help with the watering. When a baptized infant is no longer seen at church, we have all failed, not just the parents. Sorry for the Pontificating tone - but wanted to say things consisely. Thanks for all your words of insight!
TomNTx
We baptized my daughter at nine months with the belief, as a UM, that the Holy Spirit is poured upon the "baptizee" in some mysterious way, and through God's activity, grace is given. My daughter is a generous, kind, gracious two year old. Just coincidence? Why do we not have faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to be working within us at any age on our Christian journey? I see a lot put on the "parents" to perfect their children. Hm.
Serving Christ in IN
On a dangerous sea coast, notorious for shipwrecks, there was a crude little lifesaving station. Actually the station was merely a hut, with only one boat. But the few devoted members kept a constant watch over the turbulent sea. With little thought for themselves they would go out day and night tirelessly searching for those in danger as well as the lost. Many, many lives were saved by this brave band of men who faithfully worked as a team. In and out of the lifesaving station. By and by it became a famous place. Some of those who had been saved as well as others along the seacoast wanted to become associated with this little station. They were willing to give their time and energy and money in support of its objectives. New boats were purchased, new crews were trained. The station that was once obscure crude and virtually insignificant, began to grow. some of its members were unhappy that the hut was so unattractive and poorly equipped. They felt a more comfortable place should be provided. Therefore emergence cots were replaced with lovely furniture. Rough hand made equipment was discarded and sophisticated classy systems were installed. The hut, of course, had to be torn down to make room for all the additional equipment, furniture, systems and appointments. By its completion the saving station had become the premier gathering place and its objectives began to shift. It was now used as a sort of clubhouse, an attractive building for public gatherings. Saving lives....feeding the hungry , strengthening the fearful and calming the disturbed rarely occured by now. Fewer members were now interested in braving the sea on life saving missions, so they hired professional lifeboat crews to do the work. The origional goal of the station wasn't alltogether forgotten however, the lifesaving motiff still prevailed in the clubs decorations. In fact, there was a liturgical lifeboat preserved in the room of sweet memories with soft indirect lighting which helped hide the layer of dust upon the once used vessel. About this time a large ship was wrecked off the coast and the boat crews brought in loads of cold, wet and half drowned people, they were dirty, some were terribly sick and lonely, others were black and they were different from the majority of the club members. The beautiful new clubs eventually became messy and cluttered. A special comittee saw to it that a shower house was immediately built outside and away from the club so victims of shipwrecks could be cleaned up before coming inside the club. At the next meeting there were strong words and angry feelings which resulted in a division among the members. Most of the people wanted to stop the club from its lifesaving activities altogether. And all involvements with shipwrect victims were to be put somewhere else. It's too unpleasant they said. It's a hindrance to our social life. It's opening the doors to folks who were not our kind. Well as you would expect, some still insisted upon saving lives , but this was their primary objective, that their only reason for existence was ministering to anyone needing help, regardless of their clubs beauty , size or decorations. Well they were voted down, and they were told that if they wanted to still be involved in saving the lives of various kinds of people who were shipwrecked in those waters they could begin their own lifesaving station down the coast. And so they did. As years passed, the new station experienced the same old changes, it evolved into just another club. And yet, another lifesaving station was begun. History continued to repeat itself. And if you visit that coast today, you'll find a large number of exclusive clubs along the shoreline owned and operated by slick professionals who have lost all involvement with the saving of lives. Shipwrecks still occur in those waters you understand, but now most of the victims are not saved. Everyday they perish at sea, and so few seem to care, so very few. What am I saying,? This....there is no person or righteous cause so great but that the enemy is not greater still. There is no man or one so strong but that the enemy is not stronger still. And he loves to multiply his victories. If he can win a victory over a significant Christian then he's won the victory over those that have been impacted by that Christain. Don't tell me you live unto yourself and you die unto yourself. My friend, you represent the Lord Christ, you are His ambassador. John Greely Whittier wrote, "For of all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN! I apologize for the length of this post, but isn't there a connection between us openly accepting Christ and the way we live our lives? I took this from Chuck Swindolls reading on January 8, 1999. Even if you do not use it I hope you enjoyed reading it. May God be with you all and may you all have a blessed day! BRIAN in texas
please forgive me for the misspelled words in my last post. I typed it as fast as I could as I heard Chuck Swindoll reading this on the air. in Christ BRIAN in texas
Dear Friends,
If anyone is still struggling with this text, here is one conclusion I came to this week.
The voice from heaven said: "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased." This was intended to be an affirmation to Jesus about his identity - if he had any doubt about it. But it was also intended to be a public declaration of Jesus' identity. The voice in Matthew, unlike Mark and Luke, says "This is" not "You are." This was intended for others on the bank to hear, too, in Matthew.
It seems at our own baptism we affirm much the same thing, don't we? "This is a beloved child of God." That is intended both for the baptized (no matter how old or young - no matter how much water is used) and the words are spoken. It is also intended to for those who witness that event - "THIS IS a child of God, too," as am I.
This, it seems, has implications for how we treat each other - we are to givie each other the respect, acting in grace, the deference we are each due as "children" of the same heavenly Father.
These words "This is my son/daughter/child" this is also a word for mission and ministry. Jesus "went about" after his baptism "doing good and healing all those opressed by the devil."(Acts. 10) We, too, empowered by the same spirit, are sent out to do the same.
Grace and Peace, Jerry in MN
Dale and Chris,
Thanks for your commitment to the Word.
Evelyn in MO,
I've responded to your post on the discussion site.
Brian in Texas,
Thanks for posting Swindoll's words. Powerful stuff.
Jerry in MN,
It would seem to me that becoming children of God is defined a little differently in Scripture if I'm to understand you to write that baptism makes us "children of God".
Respectfully,
Rick in Va
Brian in Texas-- Hate to nitpick, but I served as pastor in one of the communities in which Whittier had deep roots, and so had respect for him drummed into me, and so feel the need to let you and anyone else know that his correct middle name is Greenleaf, rather than Greeley. Otherwise, great post!