This is such a dark passage, I just usually pass it by to do a more "upbeat" Christmas or New Years sermon with another text.
Recent articles in the Christian Science Monitor have provided a new urgency to this passage...the question is our response (Which is perhaps just to cry.)
You can look them up at www.csmonitor.com, go to Archive in the upper tab, then search on "Bethlehem".
I include the first published 12/21/2001 and an Israeli response written 12/26/2001. -------------------------- OPINION from the December 21, 2001 edition Rough road to my Bethlehem manger Emma Williams JERUSALEM - Perhaps because I am planning to give birth in Bethlehem, our baby seems determined to wait for Christmas. As of Dec. 19, I was already seven days overdue. Traveling the road to Bethlehem from our home in Jerusalem, the smart new layout escapes my notice. At the entrance to the town, the Israeli Defense Force is fixing a section of the road it ruined in October, when the tanks went in to reoccupy Bethlehem - "in time for Christmas visitors from abroad," explained a reservist helpfully.
Nor do I focus on the expanding Jewish settlements beyond the ancient olive groves, cranes swinging in their hurry to finish and therefore preclude them from being handed over to any Palestinian state that might be established - as recently called for by President Bush. I barely notice the massive bulldozers slicing through Palestinian farmland to build yet another settler road.
I am not focused on the marks of military closure and occupation that are all around me, bar one - the checkpoint. The question is whether the soldiers manning the checkpoint will allow us through to Bethlehem and the hospital where I am to give birth. I have the advantages of diplomatic license plates, and a husband with lists of Israeli military contacts to call. Above all, I have the advantage of not being a Palestinian.
On Oct. 19, Rihab Nufal went into labor and tried to reach "my" hospital. Forced by Israelis to wait at the checkpoint, she and her unborn child died. Three days later Rawida El-Rashid went into labor at 7-1/2 months. She and her family tried twice to convince the soldiers that she had to reach the hospital, but were scorned both times, and had to resort to a 90-minute detour across rocky fields, by which time the child was born, and beyond saving. Checkpoints are the outward sign and keeper of the closures that have kept 3 million Palestinians in a virtual prison, the occupied territories, for 15 months. Behind the closures, settlements grow and new roads are pushed through, carving the land into an ever less potentially viable state for the Palestinians.
Fathers are beaten or humiliated in front of their children by snarling or jeering soldiers. Farmland, buildings, and orchards are bulldozed. Whole communities, as in Hebron, are kept under curfew. Children cannot get to school, universities are effectively shut down, tourism and the economy are dinosaurs. According to the latest UN figures, unemployment has reached a staggering 50 percent in the Gaza Strip, largely as a result of the closure policy. Israel says these restrictions are imposed to stop the atrocious terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinian militants that are an ever-present fear for many Israelis. But the checkpoints are of dubious utility. An internal Israeli Defense Force report leaked last month concluded that the checkpoints fail in their security role (preventing terrorists from penetrating into Israel), but do great damage to the Palestinian population they incarcerate.
When commentators describe Gaza and the West Bank as the largest open-air prisons in the world, they don't do so lightly. One American woman I met at the checkpoint said that although she can leave her home in Bethlehem, her husband cannot. He is Palestinian, and because he is Palestinian and also her husband, she is not allowed out of Israel at the moment. The realities of closures are hidden from much of the outside world, including many Israelis, despite valiant efforts on the part of Israeli journalists like Amira Hass and Gideon Levy to describe them. They report the closures' cruelty, and the bitterness and radicalization that they produce - a "field laboratory" for growing more radicals, militants, and people desperate enough to blow themselves and innocent Israeli civilians into oblivion. Every time I go for a checkup, there is an incident showing what it is to be subjected to the whims of an occupying power's forces. Getting to a hospital to give birth should not be a matter of convincing a soldier that your pregnant belly is genuine. At 39 weeks pregnant, I had to walk through the checkpoint (the line for cars was too slow). Ahead, a young soldier ordered another pregnant woman on her way to a hospital to go back. When asked why, he replied that he didn't know if she was really pregnant - "everyone is fat round here."
I have been prevented from getting through a number of times. Once, a group of Americans was visiting Rachel's Tomb, which prompted the Israeli Defense Force to close the road to everyone else, including the Palestinian doctor in the car in front of me who was trying to get to work. And for two weeks, I was unable to reach the hospital after the Israeli tourism minister, Rehavam Ze'evi, was assassinated and Bethlehem was one of six Palestinian towns reoccupied in retaliation. Tanks patrolled the streets, razing anything in their path, armored bulldozers flattened houses and stores arbitrarily, 20 Bethlehemites were killed, and snipers picked off individuals at random. I did not get to see my doctor. The hospital itself was shelled by tanks just 50 yards away; the newborns in their incubators and the traumatized orphans next door had to be evacuated.
Bethlehem prepares for its second consecutive Christmas without visitors, who cannot or dare not come. The famous baby born in Bethlehem had trouble with accommodation, and getting there on the back of a donkey can't have been much fun for his mother. My experience will be more technologically advanced, and certainly less uncomfortable. Our problem is that we may not make it to Bethlehem at all.
Emma Williams is a physician. (c) Copyright 2001. The Christian Science Monitor
----------------------------------------- OPINION from the December 26, 2001 edition A New Year prayer from an Israeli doctor Nathan I. Cherny
JERUSALEM - In the life of Jerusalem, two years can be an eternity. Emotions spin from hope to despair. In this city and its surroundings, inhabitants live with perpetual fear of blood in the streets, either from Palestinian suicide bombs or Israeli reprisals. On the afternoon of New Year's Eve 1999, the sun shone brilliantly over Manger Square in central Bethlehem on the West Bank. The town, draped over the hills south of Jerusalem, was dressed in its festive best. Vendors did a brisk trade in Palestinian New Millennium memorabilia.
As an Israeli visitor in Bethlehem, I felt safe under the watch of Palestinian police in their smart blue battle fatigues. That night, I returned to Manger Squre to celebrate with thousands of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim. Curious co-celebrants, asking where we were from, expressed hopes for peace in the dawning millennium. Indeed, these were days of hope. Prime Minister Ehud Barak was pursuing bold diplomatic moves on both the Syrian and Palestinian fronts.
I am an oncologist who specializes in the relief of the physical and psychological suffering of patients with advanced cancer. After completing training in Australia and New York, I emigrated to Israel in mid-1994 during the heady days after the Oslo Accords. Based in the Shaare Zedek Medical Center, I work with Israeli and Palestinian patients and their families. In those days, I thought little of making house calls for Palestinian patients who were either too ill to come to Jerusalem, or who could not afford hospital care. In those days, I made many trips to the West Bank - to Bethlehem, Hebron, Ramallah, Nablus.
At its heart, medicine is an extension of a fundamental humanity. For me, this is a work of love and passion. The emotional atmosphere is laden with suffering, love, and all the mixed feelings of family relationships. Here, all of this is set in the context of an as-yet unresolved conflict between ancient peoples with competing claims. In this intense kiln we forged bonds of affection and an appreciation of the potential for mutual growth through cooperation. We shared hopes for richer times of peace ahead.
Times now are dark. It has been a year since I ventured into a Palestinian village. On that occasion I went to see a wonderful woman with advanced breast cancer in Jabel Muhaber, four kilometers from my home in southern Jerusalem. On the night she died in her daughter's arms, I could render no more than advice by phone. In the intervening months too many well-meaning Israelis had been arbitrarily killed while visiting friends in Palestinian villages. A house call would have been risky.
I ache with the pain of Emma Williams's description of dealing with the checkposts while going for prenatal checkups at the hospital in Bethlehem ("Rough road to my Bethlehem manger," Opinion, Dec. 21). No less than her, I hate the concept, and I loathe the consequences on the innocents whose lives are disrupted by humiliating checks and debilitating closures.
I also hate what the violence and hostility does to my fellow Israelis. The random killing of kids, mothers, and pensioners by suicide bombers and roadside snipers hardens hearts and fosters hate. That those feelings flow over to the Palestinian populace who widely support these tactics can come as no surprise.
The pain rendered on both Israelis and Palestinians has made it nigh impossible to understand the suffering of the "other side." Each death - accidental or malicious - only serves to distance the prospect of better times.
Unlike my colleague Dr. Williams, I cannot ascribe blame to one side or the other. The historic and emotional patchwork here is multilayered. In the pain and emotion of these miserable times it is tempting to seek myopic solutions. Indeed, this seems to be the pattern of the day. The solutions of the Islamic Jihad and Hamas who are dismissive of any Israeli claims of justice, as well as those of the Israeli right, who are equally insensitive to Palestinian rights and aspirations, leave us to wallow in this quagmire.
The two years since New Year's Eve 1999 have been long, and I will not be in Bethlehem this holiday season. For now I yearn for a time without checkpoints, when I can return to my calling without the justifiable fear of being shot or lynched by hate filled people for whom I am just another "enemy."
Resolution, if it comes, will demand great leadership by men and women with a broader understanding of the conflict and the sociology of the peoples involved. This is my New Year's prayer.
Nathan I. Cherny is an Australian-born oncologist and palliative-care physician. (c) Copyright 2001. The Christian Science Monitor
JLM in Detroit
Thanks for those contributions. They express so well the difficulties and problems faced in the Middle East. Many of us feel so distant from those problems. But we shouldn't. And in this reading for Sunday we are brought face to face with those kinds of struggles.
I have a question. Did Herod's rule extend to Nazareth, the home town of Joseph? Would not Jesus have been safe had Joseph & Mary just returned to Nazareth?
I understand wanting to bypass the darkness to go to a happier text, but I think we do our folk a disservice if we do that. Many of us still walk in personal darkness, not to mention the events of Sept. 11. I think this is a good time to talk about the eschatological hope we have through Jesus. The freedom he gives us comes at enormous cost.
Sybil in KS
26 DEC 01
First request for help: anyone have a "dialogue" elaborating on the Lord's Prayer? Would be done by youth. I've seen it somewhere but don't have a copy. If you have it/one, please send to pkne@hotmail.com For preaching, thinking about the dreams of Joseph and our good, useful, God-inspired dream for a new year that remains--in spite of evidence to the contrary--full of promise. Peter in WI
I'm a desperate preacher that has only been reading this site. Thank you all for your contributions - this offers better homiletical material than any commentary out there. Concerning the question of why Joseph moved south and not back to Nazareth, it seems to me they wanted to go where they would least likely be pursued. The tie in with Afghani refugees (or any refugee) seems appropriate Craig - in relatively warm south FL
I'm by-passing it, less because of its "darkness" than because I don't want to frighten the children! I could preach a pretty good sermon on, "Where is our faith when the news ain't so good?" (after all, look at the praise in the Psalm) and angle towards "God's will WILL be done, regardless." The thing is, I'm mindful that "children overhear the Gospel" (Craddock) and I'm apprehensive about scaring them, and presenting a message, however true it may be, that innocent children will sometimes be murdered by the hands of someone who doesn't want God's will done. Children in other countries have lived with similar fears; stepping on landmines, being separated from parents ... I don't know if I could do it without running the danger of a child thinking I was laying on a guilt trip (as in, "Children in Africa are starving, so eat your dinner") or getting frightened. A clergybrother once told of his 4- or 5-year-old daughter having nightmres and, when they researched into it, their Sunday school had taught them of the murder of the innocents. In our small church, where children are in the regular worship service, I'm not touching it - call me chicken, wimpy, or whatever, but we can't control or even guess what children will pick up, and I don't think children under about 10 need to hear something that might frighten them (especially after 9/11).
Sally in GA
Unrelated, but I'd like to know for sure:
Since Epiphany falls ON the Sunday, do we still light the Advent and Christ candles? I'm thinking we do, because they'd be lit up until Epiphany Sunday, anyhow, right? but I've got a woman (the one in charge of it, unfortunately) who's kind of uptight about being "proper" with candles and things like that and she says "no." Of course, she's also got the acolytes holding their holders upside-down, and is far from omniscient. I'm not about to get into a power struggle over CANDLES, but I'd like to know for sure.
Sally in GA
ignore this page
I am planning a 'pack the church' Sunday evangelism event at my church this weekend and I find this text a bit troubling to work with. I don't want to compromise the text in any way, but I also want the guests and visitors to hear the Good News of the Gospel. So far, I feel that Joseph and Mary's journey to Egypt can be of some help. Joseph and Mary are filled with fear so they run and they hide. Think of all the things we fear, and how sometimes we run and hide. But the Good News for Mary and Joseph and for us is that 'God is with us' - Emmanuel. I might try to work with the fear, the running, and the hiding motif and see if I might be able to explore some of the reasons why we run from church. Many of my visitors and guests will be people who are not believers, who have left the church for numerous reasons, or have been in the church for a long time but are fearful,running and hiding from God and are not even aware of it. Well, this is a thought in process, but if this speaks to any one's heart please help me build this idea. If you have any good examples of what people fear, and why people run or hide, please let me know.
Vicar John in Chicago
Like many of you, I am troubled by the section of this text that tells of Herod's massacre of the innocents--mostly because of the presence of children, including my 6-yr-old daughter and 10-yr-old son, in worship this Sunday. So I've decided to excise vs. 16-18 and stitch together 13-15 and 19-23.
The title of my sermon is "Dreams and Journeys," and I want to explore the symbiosis in Matthew 1:18 - 2:23 between dreams and texts. Borrowing from Reinhold Niebuhr: The revelation given in dreams is "confirmed and clarified" by the revelation given in scripture (in Matt esp, the fulfillment of prophecy).
Joseph's dreams lead him on quite a journey: changing his resolve to quietly divorce his pregnant fiancee/wife; fleeing with his wife and child into Egypt; returning to Israel and deciding to relocate to Nazareth of Galilee.
The dream of the Magi leads them on a journey away from Herod, buying time for the Holy Family to escape to safety in Egypt.
The next step is to make what my 6-yr-old daughter (quoting her first-grade teacher) refers to as the "text-to-self connection." Given today's variety of approaches to dream interpretation, what journey might our dreams lead us on?
Doug in DC
I have been a long time reader, an finally have the courage to make a contribution. As I read this text, I do not see the dark side, I see the guidance of God. Even before I read the lectionary text, I had the words, "just do it!" (thank you Nike) on my mind. What better words could describe what Joseph did. Certainly he didn't know all of the reason or the future, he just did what he was instructed to do. I am not promoting a mindless faith, but sometimes we get so theological and intellectual that we forget that God wants us to "just do it!" No but, no what ifs,etc. "just do it!"
joy in me
Well, how about this for good news? Matthew is very intentional about making parallels between Moses and Jesus. Going to Egypt, being called out of Egypt after the death of Pharoah/Herod, going out to the wilderness for testing, going through the water of baptism/Red Sea. Delivering the sermon on the MOUNT. All of these and more are carefully planned to show Jesus as the new Moses. There's a lot of good news there, but I'm not sure how to preach it to people who aren't too interested in Moses or the exodus. Larry cny
How about "Leftovers" for this passage? The leftovers of Christmas -- not always so nifty to deal with, versus the leftovers of the massacre of the children -- Jesus, the leftover who helps us deal with the other leftovers...To me, it's one way to deal with the realities of the Middle Eastern situation. Despite the late date, just starting to mull. CE in CO
I have to admit that I don't particularly like to preach the story of the Holy Innocents, either, but I'm not sure we do our kids (or their parents) any favors by cutting out the "objectionable" parts of Scripture. If we do that, we're making the same mistake as Marcion, who tried to do it in the 4th Century, or Thomas Jefferson, who did it in 18th Century -- we end up distorting what Scripture says about God.
I think the Reflections on this passage in the New Interpreter's Bible are helpful, pointing out that this is a "confessonal" story, not an "objective reporter" story. As a "confessional" story, it need not be considered literally factual -- it can be exegeted as one of what my daughter calls "the fairy tale elements" of Scripture. I think our kids understand that fairy tales are both false (i.e., non-factual) and true (i.e., they reveal something about reality) and can accept that Scripture contains such elements. Matthew is telling a "story" about Jesus that communicates a truth about him and about his relationship with God -- it contains fairy tale elements for which there is no objective reportorial evidence. Although it would not have been out of character for Herod to have ordered the slaughter of babies and toddlers, there's no record of such an event actually taking place in Bethlehem during his reign. Matthew has either written down an oral-tradition legend, or more likely, made up the story to "show" his thesis of parallels between Jesus and Moses (Herod=Pharoah, Holy-Innocents = Baby-boys-thrown-in-the-river, that sort of thing).
Anyway, I'm going to leave the passage as is and work with it ... I thought I was going to be spared that, as I had arranged for a guest preacher for this Sunday, but she "pooped out" on me! Darn!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Because the "Flight" (2.13-23) follows the visit of the Magi in the MAtthew account (2.1-12), I am skipping this and doing it in biblical order (not as the in lectionary). Wonder why these pericopes are reversed this way?
Mike in IN
Because of this pericope containing a great account of God's faithfulness, and getting the job done despite an enemy's best efforts to thwart it, I'm going to refer to Herod and his successor's actions within another context. I'll even quote vv 13 & 19. While I appreciate that we can "protect" children to the point of heresy, I don't know that this story, read from the pulpit, won't frighten one of the younger ones. It's best dealt with in Sunday school before they learn it in church, and in an age-appropriate manner.
to the Vicar with a "pack the church" Sunday -- I'm sure you know that one of the doubts or questions many seekers have are centered particularly around concerns such as "If God is all-powerful, why didn't he just make Herod stop?" and a question about the prophesy "Rachel weeping for her children ..." as part of God's WILL. May be an opportunity to address these things right off the bat, if you can do it without "using" the text.
Sally in gA
Because of this pericope containing a great account of God's faithfulness, and getting the job done despite an enemy's best efforts to thwart it, I'm going to refer to Herod and his successor's actions within another context. I'll even quote vv 13 & 19. While I appreciate that we can "protect" children to the point of heresy, I don't know that this story, read from the pulpit, won't frighten one of the younger ones. It's best dealt with in Sunday school before they learn it in church, and in an age-appropriate manner. I don't want to scare 'em into Jesus, and I don't want to scare the bejeezus out of them, either.
to the Vicar with a "pack the church" Sunday -- I'm sure you know that one of the doubts or questions many seekers have are centered particularly around concerns such as "If God is all-powerful, why didn't he just make Herod stop?" and a question about the prophesy "Rachel weeping for her children ..." as part of God's WILL. May be an opportunity to address these things right off the bat, if you can do it without "using" the text.
Sally in gA
Because of this pericope containing a great account of God's faithfulness, and getting the job done despite an enemy's best efforts to thwart it, I'm going to refer to Herod and his successor's actions within another context. I'll even quote vv 13 & 19. While I appreciate that we can "protect" children to the point of heresy, I don't know that this story, read from the pulpit, won't frighten one of the younger ones. It's best dealt with in Sunday school before they learn it in church, and in an age-appropriate manner.
to the Vicar with a "pack the church" Sunday -- I'm sure you know that one of the doubts or questions many seekers have are centered particularly around concerns such as "If God is all-powerful, why didn't he just make Herod stop?" and a question about the prophesy "Rachel weeping for her children ..." as part of God's WILL. May be an opportunity to address these things right off the bat, if you can do it without "using" the text.
Sally in gA
sorry for the triple post, y'all!
Sally
Herod sends his army into Bethlehem, killing many innocent children in search of one "enemy" whom he never finds. Perhaps families fled Bethlehem, in search of refuge elsewhere. If Herod were to have been approached about the innocent lives lost (as if he really cared), what would he have said about them? "Colateral damage"? MTSOfan
Is anyone able to answer Salley's question about the candles? I have the same concern. This is my first year as a pastor and I don't know whether to keep the advent wreath up and lit for two more Sundays or not. I am in the United Methodist tradition (if that makes any difference?!)
I also have a thought about the scripture. I am going to preach on family's and our expectations for a "Hallmark greeting card - family" in relation to the perfect holy family who had so many problems: pregnant out of wedlock, threat of divorce, homelessness, threat of violence, fear and running away in the middle of the night etc. ... not so different than some of our experiences ... But God is the one that makes the difference ... etc. still developing it. Very Green in Maine
I'm thinking along Martin Luther King Jr. lines- God has a dream, a dream for you. This connects the for- you-ness of Jesus as Emmanuel with the impetus to action we find in the numerous dreams of this pericope. We face the 'Osama Bin-Herod' situation of wondering where the sword will strike next, even from out of a shoe!!!! Many around us feel the fear that Joseph felt, and this is a way to put a positive spin on it. I'm considering showing a video clip of MLK to kick the message off.
Pastor Steve in BC, Canada
Is any one thinking about tying this passage in with the cultural phenomenon "The Lord of the Rings"? There is an evil force seeking the one to rule them all, and this evil force kills the innocent while a small band does what is necessary to protect and fulfill the destiny of the one. Just thinking out loud. OLAS
To the question, "Why flee to Egypt rather than Nazareth." ---
Larry cny and Eric in KS, I think, get to the heart of the matter. Matthew himself points to the fact that this is a theological move, not a practical one.
Also, according to Matthew, it would not be accurate to speak of returning to Nazareth. According to Matthew, Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem before the birth. Only moved to Nazareth after Egypt. It is Luke who says they lived in Nazareth and travelled to Bethlehem for the census.
And to the question of candles. I have never seen advice from ANY denominational tradition (and specifically not UMC) to suggest the Christ Candle should be taken out before Epiphany, the culmination feast of the Christmas season.
Any attempt to bring Christmas to a close before January 6 is a secular influence, conflicting with both traditional and bliblical concepts of what the season is about. Light them and shine them bright!!!
pHil
In regard to the candles one is ligted the First Sunday of Advent, and each Sunday following the Christ Candle would be lit this Sunday since this is the first Sunday since Christmas Day. The Advent Wreath is supposed to be removed on Epiphany Sunday and replaced with the Nativity Scene which should remain until Transfiguration Sunday. If you need proof this is found on page 262 in The United Methodist Book of Worship. I plan to preach the Matthew passage but from the stand point that Jospeh and Mary had to start new beginings they had to start over in Egypt and once again in Nazareth but God was in the center of their new beginnings and he should be in the center of ours. Kathy in NC
One candle should lit not lighted sorry Kahty
One candle should lit not lighted sorry Kathy
I am focusing on the vulnerability of God and relating it to the concept of Jesus being able to sympathize with us (Heb 4). Title: When God Ran
BTW, I wonder if those who have the courage to censor God's word as an attempt to protect children also have the courage to use their position to preach against the much more graphic violence found on tv and in video games. If you really want to make a difference in kid's lives, edit Saturday morning cartoons, not Sunday morning Scripture!
Sam in Ga.
Thank you Sally for your input. You're are totally correct on assuming that seekers will ask the question "why didn't God just stop Herod." I might talk a little about the gift of free will. I am also trying to develop my fear, run, and hide motif. It seems to me that Jospeh and Mary characterize the ideal, in the sense that they both follow God's will and go to Egypt. But what about the ones who run to Herod (who represents in the story the life-taking character). Many people seeking God today have run to the wrong god before they came to the Christ (alcohol, greed, etc.) But because of Joseph and Mary's faithfulness they received Grace and life in their new born Son. I'm not there yet, but would appreciate more input on this text. Vicar John in Chicago
(Thanks for all your previous comments - this was written ten days ago, but I couldn't upload it for some reason. Blessings to all)
Writing from Australia, this text is a poignant reminder that the Kingdom of God, (and indeed the people of faith) sometimes have to flee, or fly in the face of the governmental authorities that would persecute and kill them.
Some would dispute the historicity of the flight to Egypt. Either way, it's a powerful story of the status of Jesus as a refugee, a stranger in this world, one who challenges authority.
What do I do, as a person of faith, living in a country run by a government that recently won election by running a horrific scare campaign about the dangers of refugee boat people coming to our shores. A government that locks up everyone who would seek asylum in my country, locks them up in ghastly concentration camps in the middle of our most inhospitable and arid regions.
What do I do? And how do I preach on this text, given that I feel so strongly about this issue, without making the issue the gospel. James 1:27 is one of the key texts of my life, but as my wife reminds me, saving refugees, treating them humanely is not the sum total of the gospel.
I'm thinking of heading towards hospitality, exploring the christian history and understanding of this as a faith practice for us as a community. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this... particularly from Australia, but also from others across the world.
Grace and blessings to you all at this time. Luke
About the Wreath issue...
The tradition we follow (common in a lot of Episcopal Churches) is to change the colored candles to white (natural) on Christmas Eve and light the four and the central white "Christ" candle beginning at the Christmas Eve services; all five are lighted through the 12th Day of Christmas, i.e., the Feast of the Epiphany, Jan. 6. Then on the evening of Epiphany, burn the natural decorations (trees, wreaths, etc.) We've not had a Christmas Tree burning at my parish for many years because of dry conditions and we probably won't again this year. I miss it - it was a fun way to end the season. At my high school (an Episcopal private school), we had a community-wide Christmas Tree buring on Epiphany night.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Thank you Sam in GA for sharing about this passage. We preachers need to ask God to place within us the courage to preach the word of God and then allow Him to work in the hearts and lives of the people. It we do not preach the Gospel on the whole, then we are doing the people a disservice, by not feeding them the bread of life. The children need to know what is in the Book too! TF in GA
I too, worry about the exposure of children to too much violence. It would seem that they are filled with anxiety regarding the Sept 11 events. Perhaps this is an opportunity to help them know that God is in control and was going to save us eternally, no matter what evil others may do. Once following a tornado in our town a father of one of my confirmands talked with me. He said that during the tornado his daughter felt no fear and he questioned her about it. She said that Pastor--- had told her that death can be a painful thing, but through it we go to a better place. The important thing is to keep trusting that God is in control in the end and God loves us. Like all of us children usually fear death. To cover it up does not help us deal with it. fisherfolk in OH
Kathy in NC. I like the idea of new beginnings. Perhaps if we focus less on the innocents and more on the actual events. New beginnings = new year = resolutions. What is the resolution that we make each year - perhaps the earlier contribution regarding NIKE can shed some light? Malia in CT
I have found the comments of Australian theologian Bill Loader helpful. Here is a part of what he has to say about this week's lesson:
"The narrative is packed with allusions. It can be quite enriching to explain to people today what these are. Better to take the risk of seeming too much to be a teacher and giver of information than simply to leave the story without helping people face its mythical quality. Otherwise, as so often when teaching fails, people will assume that, yes, this is supposed to be real history and their faith will just as unreal, uncritical and unconnected with the world in which we live.
"The answer is not to try to squeeze the essence out of the rich allusions of the text in the hope of producing some kind of statement of meaning reduced to words and definitions. These stories invite us to play, but we need to play them over into our own territory. To the sensitive imagination the threatened ruler absurdly massacring the helpless has allusions to events in our own age. Matthew, is, after all not telling us about the baby and not just telling us about the past history of the adult Jesus but also reflecting the pain which his own community has faced. This pain belongs in the Christmas season if Christ is not to be trivialised. We have our stories of infants stolen from their families."
You can read his whole essay at
http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/MtChristmas1.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Certainly, we are faced with a challenge as pastors for this Sunday with a poignant text that cuts to the heart and forces us to look at the lengths of violence our world uses to erradicate the one who threatens to bring real peace, real love. I too, had read the commentary from the New Interpreter's, and to some extent found it helpful in addressing the dilemma of a God who seemingly has little regard for suffering children. Yet I find its dismissal of the story through lack of historical evidence unsatisfying. Though this may well be true, we cannot deny the fact that the Bible is full of violent images-- the crucifixion of God's own Son to take the most obvious example. (I remember distinctly how striking it was to hear children singing the song in our church "From the manger to the cross" in tones like a lullaby.) We, as a church, need to address and not deny these images are real lest we lose all credibility as proclaimers of "the truth". This text is difficult, and part of what makes it difficult is that it forces us to deal with the concept of evil. And let's not forget that Herod did not act alone. He had many hired men (and women?) to do his dirty work of killing babies-- good people just trying to put food on their tables for their family-- people just obeying the law. Once we personalize Herod things get more complex. How does Herod play out in all of us? How do we worship the status quo? How do we "just do our job" without looking at what is happening around us? How many babies die each day for lack of food that we could prevent if we really cared? How many children die is sweat factories to make our Nikes? Someone once said to me that they never asked God why there were so many starving people in the world because they feared God might ask them the same question. We can not dismiss this text or make it into something more palitable. This is the Gospel. Let's deal with it.
ML from Salinas, CA
Hello, friends, exciting stuff really it is. Lord of the Rings, yes, even the Harry Potter popularity is pale in comparison to what we have here. But often this is avoided, too embarrasing even scandelous.
I will make reference to the warnings of danger withour dwelling on the massacre.
The magi are exciting. Magic right here in the gospel. Not only are they gentiles, astrologers and strangers who find the chirst child, God is speaking to them in dreams too. wow!
Manzel
the reason the second half of the story is first is to put the magi in the season of epiphany while treating the danger as part of the Christmas story
Manzel
Jesus the multi-national.
Egyptian cultural influence is an exciting thing unless one is trying to pretend that Jesus had no cultrural influences.
Joseph being a craftsman who spent 3 years in Egypt must have been in great demand as the Roman City of Sephorous was being built only 4 miles from Nazereth. In all likelihood Jesus was exposed to all kinds of social differences and social conflicts before he was even 10. What a great preperation for the prince of peace. Manzel
I am not sure anyone would be interested in a dialogue over the verses preceding this lectionary passage other than myself. I am looking at the sermon title, "Dreams That Redirect." Intersecting the dreams of Joseph, we find a dream sent to redirect the Wisemen's journey. I am curious about the times both ancient and present that God sends a dream that redirects our paths. Any thoughts? TN Mack
In our DISCIPLE II bible study last night, a member of the class mentioned his discomfort with the fact that in the Exodus story, the Angel of Death killed all the firstborn of the Egyptians and that Pharoah and his entire army were killed when God let the "waters back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots and chariot drivers." It is difficult for him to understand a God of love in the midst of such devastation.
In the story of Jesus, Joseph and Mary fleeing to Egypt, we again hear of rampant killing of children. It is difficult for us to understand - fantasy (as one contributer puts it) or fact. In the midst of what we are living today, how can we not believe that Herod (we've read and heard the stories of this Herod and his lust for blood) could proscribe such an act? Someone had it right - Osoma-bin-Herod. Osama-bin-Ladin killed thousands for his cause and it probably didn't turn a hair on his head.
But the Jesus whose birth we just celebrated tells us that God has numbered the hairs on our heads and we are precious to God. Back to the DISCIPLE class, in our video presentation, there ws a dialogue between Rabbi Stephen Fuchs, and Rev. William Willimon and they mentioned the death of Pharoah and his army. Rabbi Fuchs said there was a Midrash regarding that story and that the angels were rejoicing at Pharoah and his army dying. But God made them be quiet as tears streamed down God's face and God said, "They, too, are my creatures." The first one to shed tears at the death of any of God's children - innocents or not - is God.
The reality of it is that our lives are full of violence - we are just living it more closely these days. May God be with all of us as we share the Gospel this week. Let God speak and our message will come forth loud and clear. We serve a God of love and grace in the midst of uncertainty and war.
Betty in Upstate NY
Betty in Upstate NY -- thanks for the Red Sea midrash -- it's a very powerful story and could be easily applied to this Gospel lesson.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Getting a little ahead of myself but I just finished running this weeks bullitins. I asked everyone to write their New Years resolutions down and seal them in an envelope and write their nems on the envelope. At the close of the service we will lay them on the altar. I'll collect them put them in a minila envelope and seal them up until next year and we will thwn pass them out and see how we did. I suggested such things as better church attendence, inviting people to church, more attentive to their spouse and children, reading the Bible through in a year Etc. I'm going to use Robert Frost's Poem "Stopping in the woods on a snowy eve"
Harold in Alabama
Vicar John in Chicago - be careful to distinguish between running from real danger, and running from (avoiding) something good. Joseph's fear was justified. He was protecting his family... and God was leading him to safety. DGinNYC
This text has just exhausted me. I am still struggling on a theme. I've listened to the advice of a few of you in here and I think I would be doing a diservice to the text if I went with the running and hiding motif. Sally in GA was right, many people are going to ask the question, "why didn't God stop Herod?" The question that keeps dancing in my head as a sermon title might be "Why does God let bad things happen?" Why did God let innocent children die? Why didn't God tell all parents to run to Egypt? The truth is that I'm not sure, and I imagine people in the pew wonder why as well. All of us have witnessed the 'unfair' reality of Sept 11. Can anything make sense of violent events. Of course, there are many attempts at justifying: God doesn't cause evil, but humans do. This seems logical enough, but it doesn't give an answer for an indiscriminate tornado, or the child sick with AIDS. Many people wonder why there's so much evil in this world, and as a preacher sometimes we have to wrestle with the tough questions, otherwise we fail our congregations. Well, I'll keep at it. God bless! Vicar John in Chicago
dear friends, g'day Luke this is from another Australian who is struggling with the present Federal Government's actions against refugees, especially those from the middle East - if you are white South African or from Zambia that is OK but don't be swarthy! Back to the scripture - we have to be true to the story - Jesus entering our world was not all sweetness and light - you Americans use too much corn syrup - the reality is that Jesus causes a reaction - the Hymn in John's Gospel said it "the world did not recognise him". Jesus comes into the world and creates a reaction by evil - I am thinking of referring to the reaction of Herod - "the Government" and suggesting a simmilar reation in Australia is an act of Evil - Like my brother Luke I may find there a lot of protest from the frightened and comfortable white congregation ! Blessings Koala George
dear friends, g'day Luke this is from another Australian who is struggling with the present Federal Government's actions against refugees, especially those from the middle East - if you are white South African or from Zambia that is OK but don't be swarthy! Back to the scripture - we have to be true to the story - Jesus entering our world was not all sweetness and light - you Americans use too much corn syrup - the reality is that Jesus causes a reaction - the Hymn in John's Gospel said it "the world did not recognise him". Jesus comes into the world and creates a reaction by evil - I am thinking of referring to the reaction of Herod - "the Government" and suggesting a simmilar reation in Australia is an act of Evil - Like my brother Luke I may find there a lot of protest from the frightened and comfortable white congregation ! Blessings Koala George
On the question of it seeming to be unfair that Jesus escaped while all the other baby boys in Bethlehem died, remember that Jesus was spared at this time precisely so that he could die later, at the hands of Herod II. He died for all those slaughtered babies, and for the soldiers who slaughtered them, and for Herod both I and II, and for Pilate, and for you and for me. -- Mike in Maryland
It was to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet. The text tells us why they fled to Egypt and why they came back. What can we point at in our congregations that we could say, this happened to fulfill God's will for us? BD in Chicago
The questions is not so much "why" as where is the point of identity... One of my elders said, in reflecting on the September 11 and anthrax attacks, that this was the first time in his life he felt that someone out there wanted him dead. (I quickly pointed out that he must not have teenagers...) But even Jesus had to live in a world where his life was in real danger. God became part of this world in order to redeem it... not by forcing good behavior, but by becoming one of us and leading us in a different way.
We don't have a full sermon this week. We're also singing carols. I think we all need a break!
God's blessings. DGinNYC
I don't believe it to be either Marcionite nor Jacksonian to leave out verses 16-18. That still leaves the threat of Herod in v.13, but spares the tender ones of any age from the graphic details. I would also leave out the 1st 5 words of v.13, beginning with "an angel of the Lord appeared..."
It all depends on what message you want to preach. If you want to talk about "Osama-bin-Herod" and how the human solution to problems is often "kill them all, let God sort 'em out". then you need to leave the violence in. It is not gratuitous. If you want to preach on God's guidance of Joseph, or Joseph's trusting response to God, then get them to Egypt and back again. It doesn't matter what happened in Bethlehem in the mean time.
On the candle issue- I unwittingly chose fast burning purple candles (they were on sale) and Advent 1 burned down to vapors in the holder on Advent 4 Sunday. So I am, as Eric advised, replacing them all with white candles. On the other hand, I like the idea of replacing the wreath with a nativity scene. I somehow failed to commit to memory page 262 of my UMBOW. Maybe I'll put the shepherds in this Sunday and add the Magi next week. tom in TN(USA)
Next week is Epiphany. Following the example of the Magi we, being wise folks, will come to worship the newborn king bringing a little something to help mother and child. We will have a baby shower for Jesus (Seems like the only one we didn't get a Christmas gift for!) I'll remind the congregation tomorrow that while they are out returning gifts this week to remember the one name left on their list and buy a baby gift. We will bring diapers, lotion, powder, outfits(especially premie size) and other baby essentials (no myrrh, please). These will be donated to Miriam's Promise, our conference's Crisis Pregnancy and Adoption Service.
This week I will preach on Joseph and all he gave up to take care of Mary and Jesus. First it was the untimely pregnancy, of someone else's child, and now the upheaval and removal to a foreign land. Do you think he trudged all the way to Egypt muttering, "What next, God? I had all these plans..."
There is a song on the Country stations by Brad Paisley, "He Didn't Have To Be", about his Step-father. He recounts how taking on a wife who already has a child is a job many men wouldn't want, but being that child, his life was changed by a man willing to be the dad "He Didn't Have To Be". No doubt Jesus was shaped by spending much time in prayer with his Heavenly Father, but his earthly dad must also have formed his character somewhat. What of Joseph can we see in Jesus? We can also change the world through the shaping of children by fostering, adopting, mentoring, or by supporting those who do. Maybe God needs your help raising some child to do great things. How much are you willing to give up to help God raise his children? And so on...enuf for now. tom in TN(USA)
Tom in TN wrote: "So I am, as Eric advised, replacing them all with white candles. On the other hand, I like the idea of replacing the wreath with a nativity scene. I somehow failed to commit to memory page 262 of my UMBOW. Maybe I'll put the shepherds in this Sunday and add the Magi next week."
I get around this whole thing by having both the creche and the wreath from Christmas Eve on... At our Children's Eucharist early Christmas Eve, the kids and I set up the Creche and talk about the significance of each of the figures ... The Baby Jesus figure is not put in (the kids understand that he won't be "born" until "tomorrow") and the Magi figures we put on a table in the Narthex. Over the next 12 days, I move them to window sills and other places each day as they make their way to the Stable. Then on Epiphany, they arrive; I think it's neat that Epiphany falls on a Sunday this year as I can talk about their arrival with the kids that morning. The Baby Jesus, btw, I put into the Creche at the conclusion of the Midnight Mass and the congregation sings "Silent Night".... this is a tradition many years' in this parish and the last one I served. A bit sentimental, but Hey! It's Christmas!
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS -- I think Tom makes valid points about excising vv. 16-18, but I still wouldn't do it. I don't like it when the lectionary editors leave verses out, unless there are very good literary-critical reasons for doing so - obvious copyist errors, that sort of thing -- and frequently will include those glossed over verses. I guess if I was really pressed to defend my position I would argue that Scripture is a "whole" and we need to read it and exegete it that way, not pick and choose the bits we are comfortable with.
Forgot to say thank you, especially to George Z. in Canada for your ideas. DGinNYC
I'm not a big fan of Bishop John Shelby Spong, but this comment about Matthew's Gospel is, perhaps, helpful...
"When Matthew began to tell his story to his Jewish audience he chronicled a similar account about Jesus' birth (Matt. 2:16ff). Once again a powerful king posed a threat to the Jewish male babies. Herod, having been deceived by the wise men, sent his soldiers to Bethlehem with orders to slay every Jewish boy under two years of age. (They are known in the Christian tradition as "The Holy Innocents.") Once again the child of promise was spared. The holy family fled to Egypt. No Jewish reader failed to hear Matthew's real point, which was not that such an event literally occurred, but rather that this child was a new Moses whose birth occasioned the retelling of a Moses story." This Hebrew Lord by John Shelby Spong
Blessings, Eric in KS
Sally in GA- I ma lighting all the Advent Candles AND the Christ candle and will until epiphany, when the Christmas Season is over
rokinrev in CNY
This is from Dan Christ, Chaplain at Bethany Home in Alexandria, MN. When I read that joke last week, I recalled it and decided that it would make a great introduction to my message. Thanks!
Merry Christmas to you on the First Sunday after the Nativity of our Lord and the 5th day of Christmas.
It was the day after Christmas at a church in San Francisco. The pastor of the church was looking over the cradle when he noticed that the baby IHS was missing from among the figures. Immediately he turned & went outside &saw a little boy with a red wagon, & In wagon was the figure of the little infant, IHS. So he walked up to the boy &said, "Well, where did you get Him, my fine friend?" The little boy replied, "I got him from the church." "why did you take him?" The boy said, "Well, about a week before Christmas I prayed to the little Lord IHS &I told him if he would bring me a red wagon for Christmas I would give him a ride around the block in it.
Well it is the Sunday after Christmas and we ask, Where are you giving the Christ Child?
Today we heard a story about the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt. Mary had given Jesus a ride around in her womb for nine months. Joseph carried the infant Jesus and the Blessed Mother to Egypt. And then after that he carried the Christ child back to Nazareth.
Where will you carry Christ?
Let me tell you the story of Emma who is a resident out in a Good Samaritan Home in North Dakota. Emma had been at the Good Samaritan Home for four and half years. She could recite poetry that she had learnt as a child out on the plains in the one room school house. She got around pretty well in her wheelchair for her age of 93. Her two sons came back to see her from Minneapolis and from California usually around Christmas. Her daughter was about 40 some miles away in Lisbon, N.D. the town made famous by Lawrence Welk. She was married to a farmer there and saw her mom Emma every week. Her daughter was in her sixties and so was her husband but they did what they could for Emma.
But often if was Emma who did for others. She like to wake her roommate up. She would ring a bell—not to get the attention of the nurses or aides, but to wake up her roommate. And Emma liked to do hand work –sometimes crocheting and sometimes knitting and most of the time keeping up her voluminous diary. She loved to keep a journal about her life and those of her kids and grand kids and great grand children. She liked to make u scrap books for the grandkids from the pictures she got from them as well as newspaper clippings that were current at the time of the grand children’s photo.
She saved all this stuff in her closet and would take it out to show her grandkids if they visited or the parents of the grandkids when they were there. She was what you would call a loving woman and her love was as I could discern because she was fully convinced that the Lord Jesus Christ loved her.
It was not at Christmas, but in March or April, when the winter is starting to get pretty old. When you live out on the prairie o N.D. by the end of March and into April, you have had enough of winter. Well, even so, Emma tried to be chipper and positive about life. When she’d wake up in the morning, she ring her bell for the roommate and then say, “This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
Well it was not too long after that but Jennifer came into the room. Jennifer was the newest nurse aide at the facility and she was a sweet girl. Emma knew that Jennifer was a single mom with a little girl of her own at home. And although Jennifer was usually a ray of sunlight herself, Emma could see that the girl was looking pretty ragged and run down, if not discouraged.
Emma said, “Jennifer, you look kind of sad or tired. What’s the matter?” Jennifer said, “Oh, nothing. Everything is fine.” And after helping Emma and her roommate get up and get going Emma went on with her day and actitivies like chapel and knitting.
But along about 2:40 P.M. , Jennifer came back to see Emma who was alone in her room.
“You know, Emma, “ Jennifer said, “ You asked if there was something wrong earlier, I already punched out and your roommate is out, maybe you can give me some advice. Can you listen to my problem?”
So for the next fifteen or twenty minutes Jennifer talked to Emma about her problems with her daughter and her boyfriend who wanted to marry her and the man who was the father of her child(they were different men) and how much trouble she was having now with that man. “What should I do? Emma, “ Jennifer asked.
Emma was silent for a while and then she said, “Have you talked to the Lord about it?”
For the next ten minutes Emma told her about the Lord and how much guidance she had had through all her hardships and troubles. And she concluded, “Maybe we could seek the help from the Lord. Do you pray?”
Jennifer said, “I haven’t prayed since I was a little kid. Did you think it will help?”
Emma said, “ Well, it can’t hurt and I know t hat the Lord Jesus has seen me through every trouble and I’m still here. I’m a survivor.”
So Emma prayed as tears came down Jennifer’s cheeks and finally she concluded, “In Jesus’ Name Amen.” And Jennifer said, “amen, for me too, Lord.” And then turning to Emma, Jennifer said, “I think I know what I have to do but I’m sure glad that you helped and that you prayed with me.”
I tell you that story about Emma because that is how she carries the Christ Child around with her. If Joseph carried the Christ Child to Egypt and then to Nazareth, and the little boy in San Francisco carried him in his new red wagon, the question for us is: How do we carry Christ with us? How do we bear him to our neighbor so that he or she too may know the blessing and favor of the Lord?
Merry Christmas!!!
This is from Dan Christ, Chaplain at Bethany Home in Alexandria, MN. When I read that joke last week, I recalled it and decided that it would make a great introduction to my message. Thanks!
Merry Christmas to you on the First Sunday after the Nativity of our Lord and the 5th day of Christmas.
It was the day after Christmas at a church in San Francisco. The pastor of the church was looking over the cradle when he noticed that the baby IHS was missing from among the figures. Immediately he turned & went outside &saw a little boy with a red wagon, & In wagon was the figure of the little infant, IHS. So he walked up to the boy &said, "Well, where did you get Him, my fine friend?" The little boy replied, "I got him from the church." "why did you take him?" The boy said, "Well, about a week before Christmas I prayed to the little Lord IHS &I told him if he would bring me a red wagon for Christmas I would give him a ride around the block in it.
Well it is the Sunday after Christmas and we ask, Where are you giving the Christ Child?
Today we heard a story about the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt. Mary had given Jesus a ride around in her womb for nine months. Joseph carried the infant Jesus and the Blessed Mother to Egypt. And then after that he carried the Christ child back to Nazareth.
Where will you carry Christ?
Let me tell you the story of Emma who is a resident out in a Good Samaritan Home in North Dakota. Emma had been at the Good Samaritan Home for four and half years. She could recite poetry that she had learnt as a child out on the plains in the one room school house. She got around pretty well in her wheelchair for her age of 93. Her two sons came back to see her from Minneapolis and from California usually around Christmas. Her daughter was about 40 some miles away in Lisbon, N.D. the town made famous by Lawrence Welk. She was married to a farmer there and saw her mom Emma every week. Her daughter was in her sixties and so was her husband but they did what they could for Emma.
But often if was Emma who did for others. She like to wake her roommate up. She would ring a bell—not to get the attention of the nurses or aides, but to wake up her roommate. And Emma liked to do hand work –sometimes crocheting and sometimes knitting and most of the time keeping up her voluminous diary. She loved to keep a journal about her life and those of her kids and grand kids and great grand children. She liked to make u scrap books for the grandkids from the pictures she got from them as well as newspaper clippings that were current at the time of the grand children’s photo.
She saved all this stuff in her closet and would take it out to show her grandkids if they visited or the parents of the grandkids when they were there. She was what you would call a loving woman and her love was as I could discern because she was fully convinced that the Lord Jesus Christ loved her.
It was not at Christmas, but in March or April, when the winter is starting to get pretty old. When you live out on the prairie o N.D. by the end of March and into April, you have had enough of winter. Well, even so, Emma tried to be chipper and positive about life. When she’d wake up in the morning, she ring her bell for the roommate and then say, “This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
Well it was not too long after that but Jennifer came into the room. Jennifer was the newest nurse aide at the facility and she was a sweet girl. Emma knew that Jennifer was a single mom with a little girl of her own at home. And although Jennifer was usually a ray of sunlight herself, Emma could see that the girl was looking pretty ragged and run down, if not discouraged.
Emma said, “Jennifer, you look kind of sad or tired. What’s the matter?” Jennifer said, “Oh, nothing. Everything is fine.” And after helping Emma and her roommate get up and get going Emma went on with her day and actitivies like chapel and knitting.
But along about 2:40 P.M. , Jennifer came back to see Emma who was alone in her room.
“You know, Emma, “ Jennifer said, “ You asked if there was something wrong earlier, I already punched out and your roommate is out, maybe you can give me some advice. Can you listen to my problem?”
So for the next fifteen or twenty minutes Jennifer talked to Emma about her problems with her daughter and her boyfriend who wanted to marry her and the man who was the father of her child(they were different men) and how much trouble she was having now with that man. “What should I do? Emma, “ Jennifer asked.
Emma was silent for a while and then she said, “Have you talked to the Lord about it?”
For the next ten minutes Emma told her about the Lord and how much guidance she had had through all her hardships and troubles. And she concluded, “Maybe we could seek the help from the Lord. Do you pray?”
Jennifer said, “I haven’t prayed since I was a little kid. Did you think it will help?”
Emma said, “ Well, it can’t hurt and I know t hat the Lord Jesus has seen me through every trouble and I’m still here. I’m a survivor.”
So Emma prayed as tears came down Jennifer’s cheeks and finally she concluded, “In Jesus’ Name Amen.” And Jennifer said, “amen, for me too, Lord.” And then turning to Emma, Jennifer said, “I think I know what I have to do but I’m sure glad that you helped and that you prayed with me.”
I tell you that story about Emma because that is how she carries the Christ Child around with her. If Joseph carried the Christ Child to Egypt and then to Nazareth, and the little boy in San Francisco carried him in his new red wagon, the question for us is: How do we carry Christ with us? How do we bear him to our neighbor so that he or she too may know the blessing and favor of the Lord?
Merry Christmas!!!
I have divided this lesson up into the three different "scenes" in the passage and will have the congregation sing a related hymn in between each portion. I am also having a Watchnight type of opening to the service--singing "O God, Our Help in Ages Past," with scripture passage or prayer in between each verse. Sharon in Bethlehem
Here I am at 11:02 p.m. on Saturday night just finishing my sermon for tomorrow (hacking and coughing and sneezing all along)... I don't really like it; I wish I had more time to work on it ... but here it is:
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/xmas-1a-rcl-2001.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Previous:
My first look at the text leads me to two main focus points: 1. listening to that still small voice and being obedient to the Spirit's direction 2. trusting your own intuitive senses also. Note that Joseph was "afraid to go there" and THEN he had a dream warning him to go to Galilee instead.
Also, I'm a great believer in listening to dreams.....this might be a hard sell for some folks, particularly the more "pragmatic" souls, but there is certainly a scriptural basis for God speaking to us in our dream life. How many people today really listen to their dreams, or really listen to the whisper of the Spirit's guidance? My guess is that there are more 'Spirit listeners' than we think.........
These are just early musings,
SueCan ps. Happy Birthday to Mark in Australia
I'm troubled by the question, "Why did God do it that way instead of...?" Why did he have Joseph drag Mary and the baby off to Egypt? In those days it was considered that there were three states of misery: illness, poverty, and travel. Have them endure that misery just to fullfill what had been spoken by the Lord? Why not just post Gabriel there to whack all the king's men when they came hunting the baby. Most of all: Why allow every baby in Bethlehem to be slaughtered just to fulfill another prophecy? Gabriel could have taken care of that problem too. Why? Going to be tough to explain this one. I'd sure like a clue. RevBill in GA
Perhaps it comes down to the same question we ask ourselves in Lent.......what kind of God demands the sacrifice of her only son on the cross? What kind of God stands by while two year old children are murdered for the sake of prophecy-fulfilment? You are correct in saying it's a tough one to wrestle with. The questions seem to direct us to our understanding of evil, which seems a rather unfortunate place to be two days after Christmas. But perhaps that harsh "snap" back into reality is exactly where we need to be.....
Personally, I don't believe that God wanted those babies to die, but was present in the agony of a nation who lost it's children. Though I know that one can never entirely resolve the mystery of the problem of evil, I have to go with Kushner's approach.........a God that is not all-powerful, but certainly all-loving.
Where am I going with this in my sermon? Let's just say I'm glad to have a few weeks to think on it! I still like the idea of God's presence being made known to us (and to Joseph in this case) in our dreams and our deep inner listening. Either way, hearing that still small voice in the midst of such chaos must have provided comfort........
SueCan
SueCan, Thanks for your thoughts. I'm having the experience of my logjam beginning to break up, but I can't tell what direction it's going to go. My view of God is pretty orthodox, I suppose. Omni this and omni that. Omnipotent, yet he surely elects not to play an omnipotent hand in the human affairs game. If he did, then I imagine there would not be such a thing as free will. FW was a precious and costly gift to us -- ultimately cost him his Son's death on the cross, and who could imagine how many sleepless nights. My understanding of evil is also pretty orthodox, and perhaps the slaughter of the babes was part and parcel of what Satan was prepared to try in order to abort the divine plan. It is pretty easy to view Herod Tetrarch as a servant of Satan. RevBill in GA
To pick up on the theme of realism, I have been thinking about how easy it is to be lulled by the Christmas scene into thinking that Jesus' coming to earth is some kind of easy fix all. But in the killing of the children and in the travel to Egypt, I come to realize that we still have to wrestle with God who does not do things our way. I think that even in this passage there is a sense that grace is costly; and there is a foreshadowing that sometime in the future we will have to pick up the cross and follow Christ. There may be peace and goodwill to all in the angels' message, but maybe it requires listening to the small voice within and taking action in a very Christian kind of way.
My mind is running off in different directions as I try to type what I am thinking. RevBill and SueCan have provoked many reactions in me as I read their posts.
I am coming from the same thoughts as RevBill is pertaining to free will, but I don't agree with the murder of the babies as part of Satan's work. I have trouble with thinking Satan has as much power as God or any angels. But that's another theological discussion.
One of the things I have emphasized to children in children's sermons from time to time throughout the years (and adults)is that we have free will which means we can choose to follow God or turn away. If God were to control our decisions, we would be nothing but puppets. If God were to decide if we would be good or bad before anything happened and not let them happened, we would still not be able to say we have free will. So bad things are going to happen to us so that our decisions may be played out and we can say we chose God of our own accord.
Now as for the children who were slaughtered by Herod, why didn't God sent an angel to stop it? Well, suppose God had done that. Would we be able to say that Jesus truly is one of us if God had protected all those babies? It would mean that Jesus' life was never really in danger. Jesus was truly one of us because his life was in constant danger as anyone else was. He was in danger from Herod who wanted to kill him. He was in danger of dying from illness, malnutrition, or accident, just as any child is.
Remember how Jesus told the disciples in the garden of Gethsemane that if he wanted, he could call upon God to sent several legions of angels to protect him? Jesus said that he didn't because the scripture needed to be fulfilled. But I saw it also as a way for Jesus to be truly one of us. To suffer all the things we suffer.
I like what the poster of 17 December (who by the way did NOT leave a name for me to compliment)said about God's grace being costly. Too often we think that by accepting Jesus as our Savior and our Lord, everything will be hunky dory fine. But as I like to say from time to time, Jesus never promised us a rose garden. Life was, is and will be filled with hardship and danger. It was so for Jesus as this passage shows us.
Hope I'm making some sense.
Brandon in CA
Hi everyone: what about a totally different take and focus on the theme of home. Christmas is a time in which home is very important. We travel many miles to be home with family. Also, Christmas seems to be a time in which many are called to discover their spiritual home - witness the many that will come out on Christmas Eve. Augustine's words, that we don't find our true rest until we find our rest in God, come to mind. There is a restlessness among us to seek for and find this home. Is this connected to the same restlessness that the Holy Family must have known - away from their hometown, no room in the inn, their home a stable, their home a house (in Matthew), their home in Egypt. It seems that God cannot find a home for him/herself anywhere. Where is God's home? Some thoughts, and looking for feedback, and other possible directions to take this.
Tom in TO
I've been musing this for my Holy Family sermon. The Holy Family was constantly subjected to the UNEXPECTED. We too are and this leads us to a belief that God has a plan. Introduction: The unexpected Christmas gift is the most cherished. The Gospel reading today tells of the Holy Family's unexpected occurances with God. A. Illustrate: (Holy Family occurances) Star, Magi, angel's visit, flee to Egypt, return to Nazareth. B. Illustrate: (Our occurance) Hubbell telescope sent into space to observe the blackest, empties part of space. Yet, what was found was unexpected tiny pinpoints of light. When magnified the scientist found billions of stars, constellations, and an entire universe all in balance. this is an assurance that God has a plan. Conclusion: 1999 will have some unexpected moments for us, but if we look into what appears to be an inner darkness we will find a tiny pin point of light bringing the joy of God's presence and love. Remember--God didn't promise an easy journey, but He does promise a safe arrival. DDave OH
Thanks to DDave in OH! I'm hearing something remotely Jungian in the light/inner darkness theme........this will work into my sermon for Jan 3rd (epiphany).
I like the idea of being surprised by the most cherished gift.......God's grace. I have observed that quite often when I reflect back to someone I'm visiting that God has been active and present in their lives, the response is often a "who me?" kind of humility. For individuals with a poor sense of self-worth, it's difficult to imagine that God is speaking and working through and in them. It's so exciting to uncover those unexpected points of light in someone's dark world! Those points of God-light dont' necessarily make the road any easier, but they provide hope.
Amidst the pain and confusion of Herod's evil rule, Joseph heard the sweet voice of God in a dream, and he listened....
SueCan
Just some reflections, also riding off in several directions at once: (1) After all the light of Bethlehem Joseph finds himself suddenly overcome with all the darkness that still remains in the world, a world even willing to sacrifice babies for the political and economic good (sound familiar?). The fear isn't psychological, it is from very real peril. (2) After Mary was the theotokos the one who bears God, now it is Joseph's turn, just as the turn comes to each and every Christian. (3) The angel fits all the definitions of a prophet: speaking a word for the edification of the church, a word concerned not with foretelling distant events but concerned with present danger. In this case the edification of Joseph is the knowledge that someone is out to kill him, Mary, and the baby. Also, in some ways Joseph is a prophet, for the he must bear the word (via the angel), and then, in a really wierd twist, Joseph must bear the Word--not to the world directly, but into a period of silence. I am thinking of calling my sermon "The Silent Prophet." Boyd in NC
I love the thoughts about home ... my immediate response was, "and will God find a home in us today?" Will have to think on this some more. Exegetically, it's hard to ignore the fulfillment of prophecy theme that Matthew works so hard to carry out. I want to ask him: so, these things happen to fulfill prophecy ... what's the point? Why did prophecy have to be fulfilled in these particular ways (the question of evil)? What is the good news in this for us today who aren't particularly tuned in to or interested in ancient prophecy? Kay
I remember a TV interview where references were made to concentration camp survivor and author Eli Weissel (sp?). In one of his books, two men and a boy were hung by the Nazi's in one of the camps and the boy's light weight prevented him from dying as quickly as the men did. He suffered horribly before perishing.
A witness apparently cried out "Where is God, where is God?" A question many ask about the babies that were murdered by Herod while looking for Jesus. A question we all ask when suffering is witnessed.
Mr. Weissel apparently responded with divine wisdom. He said "He is there in the gallows."
The God who died on the cross for each of us (an event that should never be lightly dismissed) is the God-with-us that Mr. Weissel pointed out. His suffering allowed the comforting of those who suffer, even unto death.
I too believe that free will allows for the preponderance of evil. It is the submission of our wills to God's will that overcomes or prevents evil.
May we each submit to God and fight the evil that separates us from Him.
Rick in Va
Something I read suggested focusing on refugees. At times, we are all refugees. For some people, never more than at Christmas when they must deal with families that are dysfunctional, and from which they are, or may be cast-out.
Barclay points out that Bethlehem was a small town, and the number of babies killed was probably 20-30. He says that does not excuse the horrible deed, but we must not think in the 100's.
I plan to outline some of the themes of Matthew, and then point out how the prophecies are fulfilled in this story.
The 'slaughter of the innocents' and the 'flight into Egypt' are only in Matthew. Does that make them less valid? Was Matthew perhaps using another incident and tying it to the birth narrative? The point is that the gospels are not biographies, but stories of faith.
If you read the whole scripture in worship, then you have to deal with the babies, especially if there are children present.
Maybe I'll just take next Sunday off . . .
RevJan
Why is everyone so concerned with Gods reasons for not intervening and saving the lives of all those children.It seems to me that theodicy is nothing more than the old serpents lie that perhaps God is a petty despot that is not seeking our good. Merely asking God why he does things the way he does may just be a way for us to avoid asking him what he would have us do in the present situation we find ourselves. At Gethsemeny, Christ in his desperation asks God if there might not be another way but he never asks the accusing question, "Why?". What I do see in the passage,is that even in the most horrible circumstances, God is actively involved in ensuring the salvation of a very sick humanity through non violent means. I thank God that he does not send Gabriel to wack everyone on the head every time they do something wrong because I would have been whacked out a long time ago. God does not need our meager attempts to explain his reasons for doing what he does. When ever the prophets asked the question, God always answers by showing them a bit of his Glory which always seems to shut them up and give them a sense of confidence that what ever he does is going to "work out for good". Not one of the prophets of old ever came away from their direct encounter with God with the idea that God was not omnipotent but was doing the best that he could to rectifie his faulty creation. That I think is the meaning of faith. I am justified by faith, not because of my belief in God, but because God is FAITHful. The best theodicy is simply to point to the cross and show that God seeks to heal our evil and not simply intervene in our world in order to hold evil at bay. Our desire should be to have the evil in the world removed,not repressed. What Mathew tells me is that Gods church will always be maintained and supported by him but happily not in the way anyone of us would have him do it. I think we need to ask God for a vision of his Glory whenever we find our faith wavering. For me, that means every moment of my life.George Zwierzchowski in canada
RE: SueCan Dec 14 I am confused. Do you mean to say that as Kushner says you don't believe God is all powerful? I hope I misread your statement. Hale
To me this is a story of God being incarnate in the world. He did not change or sanitize the world before sending His son. This would have cheapened the gift of Christ. We see the various obstacles overcome by the couple Mary and Joseph as Mary agrees to be the mother of Christ and Joseph agrees not to have Mary put away. Then the donkey that made an impossible journey for Mary possible though many of us would say still nearly unbearable. The kindness of the innskeeper to find a stable and the victory as shepherds, wisemen and angels visit the babe. Herod in all of this reminds us that Christ came into a world that already has an incarnate spirit that came from the fall. This is the spirit of evil and of satan though not all powerful, he still has influence in the lives of many. We can see this in our century as surely Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin have been vessels for his distruction and reminders of the evil in this world. Herod reminds us that Christ came into the world not with fan fare and a sudden earth shift that changed the mindset and restored our fallen nature. Instead he came to change the human heart of those who would accept His grace. This is the notion of Free Will. As we accept His grace this is not a cure for earthly disease and corruption but we have in Christ the ability to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Herrod reminds us that evil still exist, in our lives and in our world, but that through Christ we can begin to change the world as we change our own attitude and our allegence from the natural toward the supernatural in Christ Jesus. Christ came not to change the world but to change the human heart. Let him in this Christmas.
Hale
To Hale, No, you didn't misunderstand me.....I agree with Kushner in this way -- the fact that evil exists is indisputable -- this means that either God has the power to eliminate evil and suffering and chooses not to, or God is not all-powerful, all of the time. Both choices are unsatisfactory, Kushner would agree, however........the first option means that God essentially kills babies in Bethlehem and causes the injustice and imbalance in our society that leaves increasing numbers of children and their families homeless and hungry. This isn't the God that I know. I liked Rick in Va's illustration from Elie Wiesel's "Night". The image of God suffering along with humanity in the midst of its chaos and pain is much more aligned with my experience of God.
I like this offering from Anthony DeMello: "There is no explanation you can give that would explain away all the sufferings and evil and torture and destruction and hunger in the world! You'll never explain it. You can try gamely with your formulas, religious and otherwise, but you'll never explain it. Because life is a mystery, which means your thinking mind cannot make sense out of it".
I don't pretend to have this thing figured out, I just need to sleep at night, and this is the best way I can do that..........
Wow, this theology of evil could provide one with a serious headache four days before Christmas! Maybe I'll take that day off like RevJan :)
Peace and holiday blessings, SueCan
God watches over his word to perform it. Fulfillment of prophecy must be important.
To 12/21/98 @15:40
She surely does watch over the Word ! Thanks to SueCan for an apt description of God all-powerful and all-allowing ... going back to your earlier contributions, do we need to pay more attention to Joseph's paying attention- to his dreams, especially? Perhaps if we all spend more time listening, we too could get a message re. our tasks- hard to do, yet I believe God does intervene via. our dreams yet today. Anyone else on this wave-length this week? rr
We must accept that God is the creator of the world.We must accept that God is eternal. We must accept that God is all powerful.Because we know and accept some things about God, doesn't mean we can ever know all about Him, or His Reasons for doing things the way that He does.It was acquiring the knowledge of good and evil, in defiance of the will of God,that brought about mankinds fall from grace as well as the entrance of sin into the world.I believe that God created man in such a way as He did because that was the way He wanted it, and I accept that he values His word, His will,and His nature, and that He will naot change any of these things, regardless of the circumstances that mankind creates.Our ways are not God's ways, and this illustrates a principle that is a part of many of the aspects of our relationship with Him and the way that He works in the world.God knows things that we don't know and has reason for His actions that we do not know. We ask why God allows something, and fail to see that humans caused the action. In the beginning God gave us free will.We must accept the consequences of what results from the exercising of that will. Sometimes the best course of action is to not try to figure out why God did something, but instead, to find out what God would have us do, and then to endeavour to do His will. Steve in Ohio
Friends,
Friends,
This passage reminds me of just how quickly things began to happen in Jesus' life. I want to remain at the manger all soft and cuddly but . . . I am again reminded that the manger is only the beginning. The real message of Christmas does not stop at the manger.
Jan, thanks for your sharing from Barclay. While in the Holy Land earlier this year, our tour guide shared that Bethlehem was merely a crossroads of twenty families max at the time of Jesus' birth. The number of babies there would have been much smaller than I have been led to believe at other times. I realize that this doesn't change the real tension with the issue, but it does seem to make it a much easier decree for Herod to issue.
Peace to all. ROG in NC
SueCan,
I believe that God's suffering (by Jesus Christ) was a purposeful event and successfully evidenced God's almighty power. I believe we are hamstrung by our own definitions of power and thus question why it is that God does not end all suffering today.
I have to believe that His ways are not our ways and simply trust Him enough to know that there were reasons why infants and toddlers were slaughtered, why Hilter, Stalin, and others have destroyed so many, why my cousin Rick was so painfully killed by cancer, etc.
This is the essence of faith. Believing when our reasoning tells us we are idiots for soing so. Believing when our intellect screams that we are fools to so so. The submission of our ability to understand and comprehend to God's omniscient knowledge and sovereignty ought to be the goal of every Christian teacher and preacher in the Church. Our submission is that pre-requisite to the gift of faith that God has promised us each.
Unfortunately, submission is something that has become passe.
Rick in Va
Please change 'soing' and 'so' to 'doing' and 'do' above...
Bad case of happy fingers...
Rick in Va
Steve in Ohio,
I missed your post before submitting my own. You've 'said' it better than I tried to.
And thanks to Hale and George Zwierzchowski in canada... good words as well.
Also Brandon in Ca, I liked your hunky dory theme... so true.
Rick in Va
SueCan, it is easy for us in our limited knowledge of God to say that He is not all powerful or omnipotent when we have no idea. As you say God's power is a mystery. I can't understand belief in a God that doesn't have the power to do all things (Luke 1:37). I would hesitate in siding with man when the inspired word of God says otherwise. Something to ponder on those who have said God cannot do things- 947. God Could Not Sink Ship “God Himself could not sink this ship,” boasted a deckhand aboard R. M. S. Titanic in 1912. The men who built the ship, the civilized world, the credulous public—all believed and boasted that the ship was unsinkable. But God was not mocked. It is said that when the captain gave the order to abandon ship, many passengers simply could not believe that the Titanic could possibly sink and refused to board the lifeboats. And the crew was almost criminally complacent. So 1,515 men, women, and children plunged into the depths. —Prairie Overcomer
I do agree that the death of so many babies is hard to comprehend but I believe that God though allowing some things to happen still has the power to intervene. We cannot question God's motives. If God did not have this power then who is Jesus. He could not be saved if He sucumbed to Satan's temptations in the wilderness. We in believing that Jesus did not have the choice to call upon the Angels are not giving Jesus the credit of being fully human. I know I will not change your mind, just thought I would add this for good measure. I pray to God that you will never change my mind! Hale
And now a different perspective. I believe the text is here to remind us of our present. What happened so long ago still part of our reality. Our children in this country still suffer, are abused and mistreated. If we cry for those babies that died, we should cry for the ones right beside us who still suffer, and maybe, just maybe, we will get the courage to do something positive about it. Maybe this time we should not think of waiting for God to send Gabriel but going ourselves and help our children. When I read the text I also see the sufferings of my people. Every day many of them, under very difficult circumstances consider the idea of "taking the child and his mother and flee". That is why many of them come to this country even though the do not have papers. Not so much to make money, but because the hell they leave in is even worst than coming here with the risk of been discovered. As I talk to the women I began to understand that the reason they take so many risks to came here is because they can not tolerate the crying of their hungry babies at night and the anguish of not having anything to give them. That is what this text remind me of, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be consoled is like Maria weeping for her children that she left behind, maybe in El Salvador and refusing to be consoled until she can see them again, if that ever happens. God talked to Joseph in dreams telling him what to do to protect his baby and the mother. Maybe God is trying to let us know what to do to prevent the sufferings of our children. Joseph obeyed and the miracle happened. I wonder what will happen if we decide to do something about our children right here around our churches and houses. Maybe we can not console Rachel because it is too late but maybe we can still console Maria, and many others, americans, asians or hispanics.
Herrod had no problem murdering his wife and his own children, in the vain attempt to retain the throne. Why should we think that the number of (peasant) children effected his dicission to murder again in order to keep his throne. As a comparison of God's wishes for our lives and the wishes of those who claim to lead, this story in Matthew full of truth about man and man's desires to be number one. So many Herrods, So few Joesphs, I believe i'll sit in the stable on Friday to bask in the light of the savior. But Alas saturday I must arise to the darkness of mankind. This used to be Pledge Sunday but now the church moved pledge Sunday to The day the Three kings arrive. I wonder why we flee to Egypt in the lectionary before the Kings Arrive?? Too all a Blessed Christmas..and some peace admist our confussion. Rich in NC
To the last anonymous poster,
I think that a mindset by preachers that denies God's power is a mindset that leads to a powerless Church.
Yes it's true that many are suffering, and that suffering is taking place especially among the children (in and out of the womb). However, much of this suffering comes as a consequence of sin. And if God is a powerless God, then God cannot help us overcome our sinful ways, and suffering is but one result.
SueCan, and others, the emasculation of God's power is an extremely dangerous notion with serious side-effects. I'm thinking, like Hale, that my words may not be enough to persuade you folks to think otherwise but God's Word is more than powerful enough to do so and I pray that you folks would read it with a submissive attitude and reclaim the power of God's Holy Spirit working in and through us to accomplish His purposes for all.
Only then can we, as the Body of Christ, make a difference in a world so in need of the manifestation of God's power.
Rick in Va
I see nothing wrong with us discussing why God did not intervene and save the babies. If we did not, not many of us will be able to sleep at night. Also, we can become careless in what we say. How many times have I cring when I heard someone say, in respond to a child's death or some disaster, "It is God's will." I remember a story I heard. I'm not sure I remember it completely correct, but here is the gist of it. A minister was visiting a missionary in Africa. The missionary had just lost a daughter to cholera (not sure of the illness). As the missionary and the minister talked about this death, the missionary said, "It is God's will." The minister than asked, "Tell me, if a man had climbed into your little girl's room and held a cloth filled with cholera to her mouth and nose, what would you say about that man?" The missionary exclaimed, "Why, I say that man is a murderer!" The minister then said, "Then don't say it is God's will. To say so is to say that God is a murderer." I have not forgotten the story as you can see although I can't remember the details to well.
Point is, we need to discuss these things, not to approve or advise God, but to better understand how we can better obey God. To try to understand God's work in the world helps us grow and be better disciples. Just saying, "Just believe" is not enough. How many people do nothing for the poor because they think it is God's will to have poor people in the world? Some Christians point to that verse where Jesus says, "You will always have the poor with you" as justification for having poor people! And I have run into people who tell you what to do by quoting Scriptures and nothing else. I'm not talking about those who believe the Bible is the main authority because I'm one of those. I'm talking about those who believe there is only one way to interprete the Bible and only one way to understand the Bible and if it isn't their way, it is not valid at all. They never hear the people's pains because they are too busy quoting Scripture to explain away the problems.
I once recieved a phone call from a woman who had a question about what her lover had told her. She was married, had an affair and became pregnant by her lover. What her lover had said was that God would punish her if she had a baby instead of an abortion! She also mentioned before telling me the story that God had punished her with two stillborn babies because she had an abortion a long time ago. All this from a Christian! I carefully explained to her that I believed that God does not punish people by killing babies. If God did punish anyone, it would be directly. The two babies may have died because of complication from the abortion, surely a consequence of her own action, but not a punishment from God! As for the present baby, if she chose to keep it, God would support her in her decision and I believe her if she said she felt God wanted her to keep the baby (that is what she told me and also said her husband knew it wasn't his child, but was willing to raise it as his own child). I don't know if I did any good with that phone call and have no way to find out. She wouldn't come in to talk with me, didn't want to give me her name or number which I respected. So I pray I was helpful.
That is why I don't shy away from these discussion. It is these discussion and searching that helps me to know what to say to people like the woman above. And I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or challenging me, because it helps me to strengthen and flesh out my beliefs and in those rare moments, help me to change what I believe by helping me to see more clearly what I didn't see before.
I don't have all the answers, but by trying to formulate what I believe God is doing in this world, I can, just as SueCan says, to be able to sleep at night. And to still my inquisitive mind that asks, "Why? Why? Why?", not because I am challenging God, but because I really just want to know why. Just as any child wants to know why Mom or Dad does the things they do.
Keep speaking your thoughts everyone. I want to keep growing!
Brandon in CA
Hi folks -- I wasn't going to preach on lectionary this week. Chronologically speaking it is out of order -- since the wise guys visit isn't until next week. But, as I continue to read your comments and wrestle with the scripture, I'm thinking yes, I will try to preach from this passage. I guess I'm addicted. Could be worse, huh?
Advent meditation from yesterday seems to be pertinent to this line of discussion. H. Nouwen writes "In our publicity-seeking world, a lot of discussions about God assume that even God has to justify himself (sic). People often say: "If that God of your really exists, then why doesn't [he] make [his] omnipotence more visible in this chaotic world of ours?" God is called to account, as it were, and mockingly invited to prove, just for once, that [he] really does exist. Again, you often hear someone say: "I've no need whatsoever for God. I can perfectly well look after myself. As a matter of fact, I've yet to receive any help from God!" the bitterness and sarczsm evident in remarks of this sort show what's expected: that God should at least be concerned about his own popularity [my note: and reputation]. People often talk as though God has as great a need for recognition as we do. Nouwen goes on to say that popularity in any form is the very thing that Jesus as well as God avoids.
A God who reaches "down" and cleans up our human messes for us would be extremely popular! Nouwen asks: "What kind of God do I seek? Do I want God to rule with flashy worldly ower and authority. Or am I trying to learn to be content with the humility of God, the hidden way that God saves us?"
Thought-provoking, isn't it. RevKK
Oh, and Rick -- I try to be inclusive in my God-language, but I do use "he" and "him" sometimes because it is often clumsy not to. And yes, in my own personal prayers, I often address God as "Father." And I have to confess that I am not comfortable yet with saying "Mother" God. But to "emasculate" God?? Would that mean that you literally think God has the physical traits of the male gender? ... and that "power" and "authority" have something to do with "manhood"? That is interesting. RevKK
Crass joke - but Jesus must have been in the top of his class being the only 2 year-old that survived.
In seminary it was pointed out, and I think a few of you have made indirect references to this, that the author of Matthew wrote his gospel especially for the Jews - to recall prophecies, etc. The killing of the two and under year-olds was to parallel the killing of all the children in Moses' time. There are more parallels, I won't go into them all, but is a helpful perspective.
Lastly, I've heard it said that God has limited his power to a "word". He has done so in order that we might "engage in dialogue" with him as co-creators of this world. Keep in mind that with a word, God called all of creation into being. With a "word", we have Jesus. Mighty powerful word.
I find that WORD concept very digestable for people in terms of understanding their own power to create life or destroy it. With a single word we can kill the spirit of someone; with a single word we can encourage someone and give life. Someone can speak a word of prayer for or with another and give life. This way of speaking (pardon the pun) seems to be a very tangible way for people to see how they are instruments of God for life.
Because God has limited his power to a word and allows us to engage in dialogue, we "speak" some pretty rotten things into existence. From Nero to Hitler to the congressmen to myself. But God is still engaged in the dialogue with us. God IS with us.
Tigger in ND
22 DEC 98
Good for you who question the injustice of the slaughter of innocents, in centuries past and today. Isn't this sense of indignation brought to us courtesy of the Spirit of our God? We'll need much listening to the Spirit this week--and it's a busy, already full week--to discern what words need to be proclaimed. Anyone up for a challenge on contemporary slaughter? We've heard the outrage over the presidents immorality but do we hear the same outcry over "collateral" damage in the Iraqui bombing (isn't that a nice euphemism? We're talking about babies and their grandparents, maimed and killed by bombs). Saddam Hussein might make a nice "Herod" but we're not above reproach. Who's delinquit on UN dues? Who is prone to ignore the admonisions of the (UN) security council? Who is the one "modern" nation who refuses to join with a hundred others that seek to outlaw pernicious land mines? I know some prophets can preach this stuff, not sure about me. Oh, and according to the most ancient text (Mark 14:7) Jesus said "For you always will have the poor with you, *and you can show them kindness whenever you wish*." Jesus was a political refugee, impeached, er, ousted by the king and sent packing. There's no evidence that Jesus was outside of the political realities of the day and neither are we. Let us exert our influence on behalf of justice, peace and hope. Power to you, friends. Peter in CA
Great discussion on theodicy this week! I’m writing to recommend a little book by Leslie Weatherhead called “The Will of God”. It is a series of five sermons written by a pastor in London during the Nazi buzz-bombing of W.W.II. With bombs dropping indiscriminately on civilians, Weatherhead had plenty of opportunity to think this problem through!
I was moved by the anonymous poster’s reference to today’s children. The post didn’t get much response. I guess it’s easier to criticize God for not sending Gabriel to save the babes of Bethlehem than to wonder why God doesn’t send Gabriel to save the babies dying of hunger today.
Reminds me of a story I read. Sorry, can’t credit the author. Seems an atheist said to a Christian, “If your God is so all-powerful, ask him why he allows starvation and homelessness in the world?” To which the Christian replied: “I would. But I’m afraid he might ask me the same question.”
AL in OR
RevKK,
The English language is fun isn't it (or at least my attempts to use it and communicate efeectively)?
I'm chuckling because I used the word emasculate to mean weaken, minimize, or lessen. I was not thinking about whether God had male genitalia. It would seem that feminism today seems focused on these things but I, for one, am not.
Rick in Va
Make that effectively up there...
thank you everyone for a lively and interesting discussion of God's way in the world. The week is building to a frenzied pace, as you all know, but I think the fog is starting to clear a bit around this difficult text. I think......
I guess for me, faith is believing -- not just intellectually, but with every part of my being, that we are not alone, God is with us. Our Creed in the UC begins and ends with those words, and this text drives them home for me. So in the afterglow of our holiday turkeys and gifts, we're going to be reminded that the Christmas story isn't all about joy, either in the biblical account, or in present life. People still have to flee for their lives, lives are taken by evil forces in the world. But in the midst of the chaos, there is God. And God will ultimately make it all work for good. And this is the Good News! That Love will have the final word -- not Death, not evil, not pain -- but Love.
Joseph was blessed in a dream by God's presence warning him to flee to Egypt.......he listened. We are invited to do likewise, and listen to our dreams, for God's voice speaks through them, as in the quiet of our prayerful hearts.
We are not alone. God is with us.
And that's what Christmas is all about Charlie Brown. :)
SueCan
Perhaps some of you would be wise to do as Joseph did. He heard the word, he believed it. He followed it. He didn't ask any questions.
I pray there is not as much confusion in your flocks as there is in some of your heads.
Nick in Louisiana
12/22/98 If God truly gives us free will does he not have to limit himself by allowing us to do whatever we will do? Even kill babies. HB in WV
i plan to use this on jan 3, and mess with the lectionary a bit and use the wise men this week - helps me keep my chronology in order - and we don't have an epiphany celebration anyway.
if there was any doubt that Jesus can't relate to a violent world like ours, this should dispel it. - i wonder if there were others who heard the message to leave?
peace, rachel
Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. The happiness which God designs for His creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty in disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will--that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings--then we may take it that it is worth paying. (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, pp. 52-53).
Rick in Va
One other article on theodicy, written by Peter Bocchino can be found at http://www.rzim.com/jt/wwg.htm
Rick in Va
Nick, It seems to me that Jesus' entire ministry was about challenging the strictly held and utterly unquestioned precepts of his church. He "pushed the envelope" in almost every way -- 10 commandments became two, the Sabbath laws were broken in favour of human need -- he did not simply absorb and submit without reflection. What you see as confusion among those in our discussion is, in my view, a healthy and faithful exercise in exegesis and hermeneutics with a challenging text.
SueCan
Joseph's obedience, the flight to Egypt, the slaughter of the innocents, the return to Nazareth.......... God is preserving Redemption.
Ann in LA
SueCan,
Did the 10 Commandments become 2 or were they summarized by the 2? I don't believe for a minute that the 10 commandments are no longer valid.
Nick,
Stick around and contribute... I too believe there is much confusion among the shepherds.
I believe your passion for God's Word and your concern for the shepherd's flocks ought to be heard by all of us as often as possible. Nick, people like yourself give me hope that God's power is still manifest today in a Church that is seemingly dying in a post-modern, radically self-centered, and relativist funk.
Speak to us Nick, your voice may be the vessel by which God is speaking.
Rick in Va
The Exodus, a fleeing. Desperation…desperation and fear. Fear that builds from deep in one's being until it almost overwhelms, until it almost petrifies. That's the fear he experienced, the fear of nightmares. Yet, this fear wouldn't stay safely tucked away in the realm of sleep. This fear was born out of reality, out of the knowledge that you were a marked man. Worse, much, much worse - it was the terror, the absolutely mind-numbing terror that your family was also marked.
He had never intended for this to be the case. He had never dreamed that this would be the case. Had he been told that one day troops would be searching for him, that those who were in power would want him dead, that he would be making his way across hostile territory at the mercy of those who might offer him shelter, at the mercy of those who might turn him over to the authorities, he would have laughed. He would have leaned back, placed his hands on his hips and laughed the laugh of a man hearing the impossible. He would have laughed until tears came. He now knew the tears, but there was no laughter, just the gut-wrenching fear.
He knew he should not be traveling like this. It was far too damaging and far too dangerous. How does one keep a hungry child quiet? How does one explain the reasons to a suffering mother? How does one keep moving silently through the wilderness, trying to find food where one can, trying to skirt the patrols of marauding soldiers, the expanse of wilderness, the slithering and ravenous creatures, the biting insects, and always, always, the fear? How does one do it - only by the knowledge that not doing it brings certain death, certain destruction by smashing clubs and stabbing bayonets. He could only surmise what horror his young bride must be experiencing. Yet, he pushed on, he pushed them forward.
Each day cascaded into the following day and their exhaustion grew. But each day, each step, brought them closer to their goal - a place that might offer safety, a place which might offer a refuge, at least for awhile. He did not know whether there would be those in this other place that might welcome them. He did not know whether more horror awaited them. He did not know if here in this other place, there might also be monsters waiting for them. All he knew was that out of the darkness, God had offered up the call to go. God had called to him and he had placed his hope in the hands of the God whom he had trusted. God had not failed him before. Certainly, now when the stakes were so high, God would not lead him to a place of rejection. Perhaps, in this new land, there might be those who would open their hearts. Perhaps, there would be hospitality to the sojourner. He grasped this hope. It was all he had left.
Finally, they came to the expanse of water, the water which offered the possibility of life, the possibility of rest. And they crossed.
Behind them, in that other place, the killing went on. The children were gathered together and they were slaughtered. They were slaughtered along with anyone who sought to protect them. They were slaughtered for no other reason than they proposed a threat to the structure of power. The cries of the mothers, the cries of the fathers, the cries of anguish were offered up to all who would listen, and the cries were greeted with the silence of an apathetic world. The cry of God was greeted with apathy.
The man and his family walked slowly away from the water, still fearful, for they were of another culture, another land, and they knew that now, they were at the mercy of the inhabitants of this new place, this place of Exodus. But at least now, they might have escaped the stabbing bayonets. At least now, they might just have a chance. Still the question lingered, "Would these people welcome them?" Always the fear.
Through tears shed for those who would never escape, the man looked back toward the land he had left, and then he saw it, the sign hand lettered in runny red paint - a symbol of Egypt , a symbol of hope - "You have crossed the Rio Grande - No Illegals Allowed."
Welcome home. Mary, Jesus, and Joseph - welcome home.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Someone has glanced on this -- I am captivated that here we have the "new" Joseph, "new" dreams, saving his family once again... the killing of the 1st born baby boys in the "old" plagues and the killing of the Innocents here... except this time they are not leaving Egypt, they return to Egypt for safety. (!) Any thoughts?
Preacherlady
I visited a young woman this morning who has breast cancer and is facing yet another round of the surgery/chemo nightmare. She looked into my eyes and asked "Why? Why did I get this awful thing?" I responded with every bit of faith and integrity I have, and said "I don't know why you have cancer, because cancer is a puzzling disease. What I do know, is that you aren't alone. Your family, your friends, your church, and especially God are always here to support you. You are not alone, and you are loved."
On the way home, I thought about how many people have been abused by the church over the years by those who have implied, even loosely, that illness is one's own fault (by virtue of a person not being "right with God"). Or that it's "God's will". Or that it's wrong to ask the question, that one ought to simply accept it and dismiss their deep feelings of anger and loss.....
I have more questions than answers -- that does not make me confused, it makes me honest. My solidarity with this young woman's stuggles are a comfort to her, she has told me so. We pray together, we give thanks for the success of her treatments so far, and we share communion in the truest sense of the word. My sense of pastoral ethics would never allow me to neatly package a theodicy for her that would ultimately place blame somewhere -- either on free will, or on God,....
I add this to the discussion because it seemed to be so close to the question of the deaths of the babies.......why?
When we have faith in ultimate Mystery, how can we not include questioning in our living out of that faith?
I need to say that this site feels considerably less safe tonight. If DPS isn't for asking questions and dancing with the text, then what is it for?
Saddened, SueCan
Sue:
I too am saddened. Some of the conversation seems bent on changing some of us who wish dialogue. Rick -- I get the feeling that you are not open to dialogue. I feel that you attack my way of theologizing and struggle with being faithful. Your comments tend to short-circuit and cut off open conversation. Please, please, please -- do not accuse. Please, please, please -- ask questions. Sue -- We shepherds of the people need to keep asking the questions - good and faithful questions. My name is "doubting Thomas", and my questions led to a great statement of faith. I am not afraid of my questions and my doubts - they lead me to a deeper faith. Goodnes knows -- I do not have a corner on the truth. may I not forget that God's Word came in the flesh of an infant. The child as a model for us -- who asks questions -- I think it's a good one. God bless us, everyone.
Tom in TO
As a child my paternal grandfather used to say, as soon as the gifts were unwrapped and the turkey eaten, "It's time to get back to Gunsmoke." As I think of his desire to get back to the routine and the regularly scheduled programming (I think we all have this feeling to a certain extent after the rush of the holidays.) I think of how quickly Mary and Joseph are sent into the world--- the world as it is--- with evil, danger and suffering. The lectionary text doesn't allow us much time to stay in the manger before it sends us also into the world-- back to reality, rountine, and all that comes with living in this world. When I think about it though I am given comfort by the fact that God was, in Christ, born into reality---a harsh and dangerous reality--- but the same kind we have to live in today too. I hope I get time before Sunday to pull those and a few other ideas together into a coherent sermon. Blessed Christmas to all. revavis
Just an idea about the fulfillment of prophecy, remember, it is prophecy and not a decree. These things were "seen" before they happened, not invented as something that should happen or that the prophets deemed necessary to happen or that God ordained. Prophecies are visions into the future. We need not ask "why did the prophecy have to be FULFILLED as though fulfillment means they are carried out like a sentence of some kind. The fulfillment of prophecy is important because it lends credibility to the scriptures and the prophets as messengers of God, who is the only one who knows the future. Saying this was done to fulfill the prophecies should be interpreted more like this was done and it proved that God had truly been speaking to the prophets.
Just an idea about the fulfillment of prophecy, remember, it is prophecy and not a decree. These things were "seen" before they happened, not invented as something that should happen or that the prophets deemed necessary to happen or that God ordained. Prophecies are visions into the future. We need not ask "why did the prophecy have to be FULFILLED as though fulfillment means they are carried out like a sentence of some kind. The fulfillment of prophecy is important because it lends credibility to the scriptures and the prophets as messengers of God, who is the only one who knows the future. Saying this was done to fulfill the prophecies should be interpreted more like this was done and it proved that God had truly been speaking to the prophets.
Tom in TO and SueCan,
I'm struck by the irony...
When I see God's Word questioned by Shepherds and Pastors, when I see His power, His omnipotence diminshed, when I see people twist my words into something akin to defending God's 'maleness' in the most obscene way, what I see is an attacking and a cutting off of the fullness and the dialogue that takes place between an uneducated person and Holy Scripture.
Then when I challenge or question theology that is unorthodox and less than mainstream (to be polite), I'm viewed as one who wants to attack, cut off dialogue, or as some of you who've written me personally have put it, as one who needs therapy.
Does anyone see the hypocrisy here? When conservatives challenge progressive or liberal assertions and theologies, it's called mean-spiritedness, hate, attacking, and un-safe. When progressives and liberals challenge the Word of God, the authority of Scripture, and those who uphold the same, it's called being open-minded, seeking, tolerant and fair-minded. Something isn't right here now is it? I ask this sincerely.
SueCan,
I would never discuss theodicy, free will or any such thing with anyone suffering from cancer. I sat and watched a very close cousin die of cancer a short few years ago. Progressives do not own the corner on compassion for the sick or dying and your implication to the contrary is quite insulting.
I believe your words to your friend were heaven sent. God does absolutely love us and has a special place in his heart for the afflicted. And yes, conservative minded preachers and wanna-bees can express God's love to them as well.
There is never anything wrong with a Shepherd who says I don't know. It is however problematic for a man or woman of faith to express an opinion that is contrary to Scripture to a seeker of truth whose faith needs a boost.
As one who sits in the pews and hopes to one day stand in a pulpit, nothing is more damaging to one's faith than to see a shepherd question his/her own.
Rick in Va
Kingdom DJ Thanks for telling me where to find "Martin the Cobbler" Funny I had The Book of Virtues on my shelf already. It's been a crazy week, so it took me a little while to check the postings. Thanks again. This online community is neat. KB in OH
Like Rick, I too have an opinion about hope for the church. Unlike Rick, however, it's not a hope centered in any person (though I am sure Nick and others like him are persons worthy of admiration). It's also not a hope for a manifestation of the power of God.
My hope is centered in the Spirit of God, and in the Spirit of God breathing life into what is dead-- birthing that which is fresh and vibrant. It's a hope grounded in the kingdom of God--a kingdom that radically reorders our way of being and doing in this world. It's a hope that this world can be made new again--not by buying into the power ethic that has, for far too long, been the curse of the church--but rather by following the lead of Jesus and walking the way of vulnerability and powerless.
For some 2000 years the church has sought for economic, political, and institutional power. We have bought, and sold, a faith that is unquestioning, ridgid, fear-based, male dominated, and unimaginative. That's what we have sown. What kind of world have we reaped?
We have bored people with the most intriguing, challenging, and meaningful message imaginable. We have reaped a world filled with brutality, abuse, starvation, and, yes, confusion. The Advent hope is that God entered our torn and weary and confused world and is with us. God's presence has not, in some pollyanna-like way, overturned the evil. In the spirit of AL's story-- why aren't we doing something to change it?
Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a difference result. For 2000 years the church has been doing the same thing over and over; it's not working. It seems to me we are called to enter into the brokenness, brutality, and confusion of our world in the vulnerability, powerlessness, and compassion of Jesus. Maybe we will get a different result. The children of Bethlehem deserved a different result as do the innocents today.
JD in WA
It's hard for me to understand the scholars who question the historicity of Matthew's account. They complain that no secular writer, such as Josephus, offers an account of the massacre. Yet even in this age of instant global communication and careful investigative reporting, such outrages are so common that we are likely to pass over the details. Who of us can name the villages in Bosnia whose fields and orchards have yielded harvests of moldering bodies in mass graves? Do you know the places in Rwanda where little bones clothed in scraps of rotten fabric bleach along the roadside? Can you locate the killing fields of Cambodia?
The more things change . . .
Bill in SoMD
As someone has already said, prophesy isn't God's plan from the beginning of time now carried out by his will. It's his knowledge from the beginning of time of the sinfulness of man - the slaughter of infants by a sinful, self-centered king or by a sinful self-centered "mother."
As others have said, if free will isn't completely free, it isn't free will. God seeks our love and worship freely given and is willing to endure the evil that we create when our free will takes the other direction.
I am saddened by ministers who don't sleep well at night because thier God is not good enough or powerful enough. I sleep like a rock.
This week I intend to continue to share with God's people the story of Joseph which we began last week. A man who made a life-changing decision to believe God when he knew that it meant he would be considered different. That Mary's wonderful story would not be believed. This week Joseph continues to listen and obey. But the wonderful part is that, like us, Joseph is sometimes afraid and God responds with new direction. Jesus grew up in Nazareth, not because God thought it was a good idea at the beginning of time, but because he knew his servant Joseph would be afraid. Thus the prophesies anticipated his fear. Children were slaughtered, not to fulfill prophesy, but beause as our all knowing, all powerful and all loving God always knew, the gift of free will has a price.
Have a blessed Christmas
Yes, it's Nick in Louisiana.
One of my favorite wise sayings from an old Florida Cracker (which means "native") is "that's why they call it 'fishin''-- if you caught fish every time you went out, they'd call it 'catchin''".
That's why we call it THEOLOGY -- by it's very definition it is the 'study of God'. This is a fluid subject, by the grace of God's continuing revelation to us. Continuing dialogue is very important as we all walk around the subject and try to put words to what is largely feeling and impression and passion and 'heart matters'.
Do you all know the story of a committee trying to describe an elephant? One person says "It has a long flexible appendage which appears to be used to grasp items..." Another says "...huge tree-trunk like support system..." while another says "very supple,leathery coverings that appear to direct sound..." Every person sees the challenge of description from a different viewpoint, EVEN the guy who says "comparitively diminuative appendage with wiry bristles that appears to serve the purpose of waving flys away from..."
One thing to consider: you are "preaching to the choir" at DPS. I don't think you are going to change any minds. Anyway, in my experience, the most important learnings were the ones I came to realize on my own.
Thank you all for hanging in there -- even you, Rick -- but tone it down. I'm starting to scroll past entir posts when I detect "big stick" methods.
I truly enjoy wrestling with scripture. The free exchange of ideas gives growth to new thought. I am prone to wonder though, must we challenge each other to all believe the same, preach the same, become rote reciters of a common sermon. What would become of the leading of the holy Spirit? Surely Joesph struggled with the voice telling him to flee. Who is the one here who did not struggle with the voice saying, "i have called you to be a preacher." it is the various struggles that bring me back to DPS. Ideas other than my own inspire new ideas in me. May the open forum always continue but let us discuss the insights or lack of them not the persons who write them. A friend gave me some advice when i first answered the cal to ministry. "Be who you are, For that is who God called." I appreciate all of you for who you are. Rich in NC
My friends, I have truly enjoyed all of these postings and find them useful for my preparation. Consider it an expression of my gratitude that I remind all of you of a biblical image for the doing of theology and particularly the doing of theodicy, as well as the practice of faith (faithful practice?). When you have time, read through Genesis 32:22-32, the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel and think about its implications for ministers of all kinds. It reminds me that as a pastor and a theologian I am called to wrestle --with God, with angels, with humans, with issues of all kinds. Note that Jacob left the wrestling match with a new name --and a limp! Thanks again for dropping in on my corner of the ring. RevRake
Oh and a prayer for all of us: God grant us the grace, strength and energy to continue the match, especially right now! RevRake
Christmas blessings to you all who have eased my mind and got me to thinking about how to preach on SUNDAY! YIKES! I would love to have the prophetic voice and really rattle those pews but. . .is this a faith issue??? hmmmm. Anyway, Joseph listened and responded and that's where I think I'd like to lead the parishoners come Sunday. Joseph has always been a special person for me... it's sad that he just kind of fades out of the picture. What an important role he held in the life of young Jesus! Thanks again, y'all! intern steph in ca
Open, sincere struggling with the issues and the text is very much appreciated. The humility to not pretend to have neatly packaged answers leads to the kind of fellowship and dialogue that makes this site truly a blessing. SueCan the genuineness of your sharing is something I greatly appreciate. I share your sadness and pray God's blessing of this dialogue. Manzel
Blessings of Christmas and the Star Child
missed sharing this song for Christmas, but it is something i'm using this week, and thought I'd send it.... writer is from New Zealand, composer is good old Carlton Young
Star Child Shirley Erena Murry, Carlton Young
1.Star Child, earth child, go between of God love child, Christ child, heavenıs lightning rod:
This year, this year let the day arrive when Christmas comes for everyone, everyone alive
2.Street child, beat child no place left to go, hurt child, used child, no one wants to know:
3. Grown child, old child, memory full of years sad child, lost child, story told in tears:
4.Spared child, spoiled child, having, wanting more, wise child , faith child, knowing joy in store:
5. Hope for peace Child, Godıs stupendous sign, down to earth child, star of stars that shine
peace Don Hoff elmira NY donaldhoff@aol.com
Thomas Merton wrote that his greatest desire was that he would never again argue with anyone! What a great gift we could give each other if we could except the standpoints from which we all come without comment = we gift each other everytime we open ourselves with the Word and share our love on this site. May Christmas be a time when we embrace both the conservative and liberal sides of ourselves and embrace the God-Man who has come into our hearts and world.
Merry Christmas
tom in ga
Rick in Va., I'm not sure I understand the last part of your posting.....the part about nothing being more damaging than the "shepherd questioning his/her own". Her own what? Sorry, I'm just not grasping your meaning, and I don't want to make any assumptions. Also, I wasn't intending that you take my illustration personally......the clergy I was referring to are local, and have inflicted much pain, some of the folks they've hurt have come to me for healing.....and wow! you want to talk about questioning! Anyway, it wasnt' about you.
What I was trying to say is that I can't theorize in one way, and enter the world in another. What you see is what you get, whether it's at a bedside, or in a home, or in the pulpit. My congregation applauds my sincerity when I confess to struggling with God's word, and many have said that it makes them more eager to enter the exploration with me. It's my way, it's not everyone's......and that's ok.
Thanks to Tom in TO and Manzel, and to the poster (sorry, forgot the name already) who raised the image of Jacob wrestling with God......Jacob and I have had a long and lovely kinship!
May the peace and grace of God be with us all this night, and may our walk with the risen Christ always be adventurous, and may the Holy Spirit gently rock us like the babe in the crook of her arm.
SueCan
Matthew, who is very interested in displaying the Jewish roots of Jesus, also wants the reader to note the irony of this Exodus-in-reverse. Israel’s Savior is early on rejected and must flee back to Egypt--the land of Jewish enslavement!
Verse 20 is similar to Exodus 4:19, in which God sends Moses back to lead his people out of slavery. “Before Moses left Midian, the Lord said to him, “Do not be afraid to return to Egypt, for all those who wanted to kill you are dead.” Matthew uses a lot of subtle parallels to paint a picture of Jesus as the new Moses. BTW, Moses is on the mind of many these days--especially those who have seen "Prince of Egypt." Perhaps this would be a good starting point for some.
My sermon title: "The Darkside of Christmas"
Brad in Turlock
Thanks revavis, you are thinking along the same line I am. But you've given me a boost into higher orbit. It is so true that we want to stay with the manger scene instead of going out into the harsh reality of the world. Witness our we have sanitized the birth of Jesus. When we celebrate in church, it seems so soft and easy and serene. No real problems. But we know in our hearts that it couldn't have been easy for Mary and Joseph, especially Mary.
Think about it. Mary is having a baby for the first time. The pains are coming and she has never felt these kinds of pains before. There is no family around. No mother, no aunts, no sisters, no cousins -- no one familiar. Only a midwife, who may be comforting, but it is not the same as having families around.
Joseph is worried, and maybe embarrassed. How could he have come so late when there is no room anywhere in the city. And his child has to be born tonight!
And now this Scripture passage is taking our heads from the clouds and plunging us into the mud and filth of the evilness we find in the world. Plunging us into the fear and horror in the world. We can never go to far from our calling. To go forth into the world, proclaiming the love and salvation of God through Jesus Christ.
I've already settled on a sermon title: "God's Work in the Midst of Evil".
Brandon in CA
SueCan,
I meant a shepherd who questions his/her own faith. I too believe that we should be the same when theorizing and when being in the real world. Genuiness, I believe, is one of the best evangelizing tools we can use. However, just as you would not want to discuss theodicy or free will with your friend who has cancer, I would hope that neither would you desire to discuss God's powerlessness or His inability to deal with evil which is what I understood you to be theorizing about earlier. I believe that this would harm more than help a person who needs comfort and assurance.
To All DPS'ers,
My prayer is that this Christmas, you each experience a freshness of the love of God in Christ, that you are each touched by the fullness of His Holy Spirit, and that you'll each pass this along to your flocks.
Merry Christmas.
Rick in Va
To all DPSers,
I've been a "lurker" for several weeks. Ventured into the fray for this reading, and I have been blessed by your thoughts and inputs.
May each of you have a special measure of God's peace in this holy day. Thanks for your thoughts, thanks for your honesty, and thank you for the raw courage it sometimes takes to put your thoughts before the world.
To serve Him,
RevBill in GA
I too have been a voyeur of the discussions for several months and will venture into a contribution. I have found the dialogue to be inspiring. I feel that part of what makes the Bible a living work is our willingness to allow the Spirit to give us new understanding of what is written. Those who insist that it must be read as it has always been read and understood miss the chance for new insight of God. I believe that those we lead or not hurt by our questioning but relieved that we all struggle with what God has created and how we are to understand God. What is damaging is if we suggest that perhaps there is no God or that God no longer cares about Creation.
I agree that prophecy is not God's will set out for us but God's revelation as to how humankind will use its free will and the consequences of those choices. Someone once said that we read time on a line left to right but God looks down that line from the end and sees it all at once. I tell people that the only way that we can challenge God for what we see in the world is if we can honestly state that we have ALL asked for God's leading in ALL that we do and have followed what we understood the answer to be. Otherwise we are responsible for the consequences not God. God is faithful to stick with us through those consequences and to provide us with redemption to make the consequences more bearable.
Sorry, for first attempt, I've rambled. Bob in MI
Matthew is determined to show that Jesus is the fullfilment of messianic prophesies. He relates Jesus' exodus back from Egypt to Hosea 11:1 which clearly speaks of Israel's Exodus under Moses' leadership. It is important to ask why God chose to deliver Israel. Deuteronomy suggests that God's purpose in delivering Israel was to set the nation up as his priests to the nations. Since, as Paul says, we are raised in Christ, then we who call ourselves Christians are called to fulfilled the role which God set aside for Israel (for Christ). God grants us salvation in his Son, not just to save us, but to be his priests to the nations of the world.
Bob in MI and RevBill in Ga,
Thanks for 'graduating' from 'lurker' to 'poster'.
It does take a certain amount of courage to contribute, especially when many consider your posts to be less than ideal.
However, once the flames die down one finds that the heat was nowhere near as hot as you thought they might have been.
I want to believe that we are iron sharpening iron which is why occasionally sparks fly. In many ways, those whose ideas and thoughts I disagree with have challenged me to get into God's Word and see what is written there. That's not a bad consequence of them flying sparks.
I never mean to offend but will always challenge. I think some of us need to be challenged so that the theological portion of our brain does not atrophy.
'nuff said on this Christmas afternoon... my wife is giving me the eagle eye, meaning it's time to get offline, a signal I've learned to react to quickly.
God's blessing on all,
Rick in Va
Blessed Christmas, everyone. I confess I just skimmed through your postings but a couple of things caught me - one is how, when we discuss theodicy, the one piece of floating timber we always cling to is the plank of free will. Of course God give us free will. That's what we say. As if it were the most valuable gift under the tree. My own will. Guess what - my own will is to have my own way, and not God's - if God does indeed let me have the last word concerning my relationship with God, that's terrifying. Is the whole idea of the importance of free will just of concern to us in western culture? Please, God, not mine but yours . .
Second thing - a jester-confessor, a poet-confidant I met on this site told me he was preaching a certain pasage from the view of the angel in that story. Maybe it's just a way to shift perspective, but it seems to me that the angel who warned Joseph did so in the realization that God was allowing/permitting/causing some pretty bloody stuff, and still the angel presumably wanted to be in some kind of participation with that God.
Grateful for all of you, your gifts, courage, insight, at this time. kbc in sc
Brandon - The story about the father, the kid, and cholera - it is from Leslie Weatherhead's book The Will of God. I heard that story and that book quoted by the minister who opened to me the door of the church, 21 years ago, a man whose son had just been killed. The sermon in which he used that illustration was one entitled "Why Blame God?"
For a long time in my early ministry I felt armed by that good news as I sought to wrest from people their misconception about God "taking" their child. I found instead that having a God who was at least involved to the point of "taking" our children seemed to be preferable to whatever else was offered - maybe a powerless God? Maybe a God who just didn't care? For me, now, I'm somewhere between that minister and those early parishioners.
I just came across this in Julian of Norwich's Revelation of Love: "For some of us believe that God is almighty and may do everything, again that he is all wisdom and can do everything, but that he is all love and will do everything, there we hold back. And this ignorance, that is what most hampers God's lovers, in my eyes." kbc in sc again
One of the most current issues may be Herod's lie to the wisemen: "As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."
We struggle with lies in our nation and in our own hearts. We can see in our memory the Clinton denial on videotape: ³I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.²
There can be little doubt that was a lie meant to avoid the consequences that have followed. Whether impeachable or not, there has been great damage.
Elements of lie: Plain statement that seems clear but does not represent real facts, thoughts, feelings.
Dynamics of lie: Self-justification, self-protection. Often aimed at getting others to behave in some way that the liar thinks will bring benefit.
Lies may cause great harm, tragedy, suffering but they do not stop the will of God.
What will God bring out of our nation's suffering over the impeachment?
Phil in RI
One of the most current issues may be Herod's lie to the wisemen: "As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."
We struggle with lies in our nation and in our own hearts. We can see in our memory the Clinton denial on videotape: ³I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.²
There can be little doubt that was a lie meant to avoid the consequences that have followed. Whether impeachable or not, there has been great damage.
Elements of lie: Plain statement that seems clear but does not represent real facts, thoughts, feelings.
Dynamics of lie: Self-justification, self-protection. Often aimed at getting others to behave in some way that the liar thinks will bring benefit.
Lies may cause great harm, tragedy, suffering but they do not stop the will of God.
What will God bring out of our nation's suffering over the impeachment?
Phil in RI
All, One of the purposes of our open discussions here is to "Train our ears to hear different voices - other points of view." God speaks to all of us men and women, through the Word we preach. I'm convinced that God also speaks to me - to us - through the contributions on this site. As a new person in the ministry, I appreciate and cherish the instruction in using "language that functions".
All of us need to remain faithful to our ministry to each other. God is here among us - in the words and images we share.
The Grace of Christ be with you all on this Christmas Day.
Arkansas Bob
hi, folks. i'm hoping that in the midst of this heady discussion on theodicy and free will, you've all had some moments to behold and be held by God's light shining up from the babe in the manger!
i'm looking for a quote that i remember only in part by howard thurman, which essentially says that when the shepherds went back to their sheep, when the angels went away, that's when the work of christmas begins: to bind up the broken hearted, to bring good news to the poor, to comfort the forgotten... it's a beautiful quote, and seems appropriate to this lection. and it's where i think i want to start my sermon...the idea of when all the tinsel is down, when the magi leave, when the celebration is over...that's when we have to do the hard and wonderful work of carrying christ into difficult and painful places. if any of you know the piece, could you post it here? or send it to me at nsinorm@aol.com. thanks!!!
and blessings as you carry christ into the (sometimes) difficult and painful places where you serve! nwolc/ct
St. Matthew's infancy narrative moves quickly from Peace on Earth to the murder of innocents and the Flight to Egypt of the Holy Family. Matthew reminds his community in Antioch then, and us now, that Emmanuel is a threat to all who believe themselves to be as god.
Those in positions of power insecurely hiding behind pretense and oppression and cruelty do not welcome the Child who comes to be with and empower common folk. The seemingly harmless babe in the manger is recognized from the first as the One who sets captives free... hardly good news to the likes of Herod, his son, or any who gain wealth and power by fear and cruelty. St. Matthew might have written "Do not underestimate the danger of evil, nor forget the triumph of God's will when His people obey." It's an appropriate wake-up call for me.
- Mike in Texas
nwolc/ct:
Here's your poem (in case you haven't found it yet:
The Work of Christmas
When the song of the angels is stilled, When the star in the sky is gone, When the kings and princes are home, When the shepherds are back with their flock, The work of Christmas begins:
To find the lost, To heal the broken, To feed the hungry, To release the prisoner, To rebuild the nations, To bring peace among brothers, To make music in the heart.
~~Howard Thurman
Blessings to all of you, and a happy new year. Joe in OH.
PS Last week I pleaded for help in crafting a sermon (last week of classes did me in), and I received help and encouragement from many of you. Thank you so much. Last Sunday went fine, and also my first Christmas Eve in my appointment went beautifully. God is good. Challenging to us all, but good none-the-less.
Three prophesies fulfilled in this scripture! Three dreams to guide Joseph! Indeed God's hand is upon this family, in a mighty way! Message: Seek ye first the kingdom of God...and all these things shall be given unto you! It seems clear to me that God will guide those who are opened to His guidance.
Why are so many upset with the killing of 30 babies or so? Look out your windows America, 20,000 babies will be killed this year through abortion. God mercy upon us. LS
Thanks to all for your thoughts. I must confess, I am traveling a different route. I did not want to wrestle with theodicy issues or omnipotent issues. (Not that I think they are unimportant, it is good to wrestle...that's a living faith)
Instead I have titled my sermon "The Challenge of the Christmas Story". I am dealing with these challenges 1)Jesus' birth was no magic act. He broke into a world of darkness. While the light has not been overcome, there is still much darkness. For instance, Christ was born, but Herod killed babies. We still see much darkness in our world 2) The challenge to follow Christ and not the world. Christ upset the status quo and the status way of dealing with things. Herod clung to the old with might makes right and "I'll do what I have to to preserve myself" 3) The challenge for us not to quickly return to things as normal but to take the message of Christmas into this world and proclaim the light that came to dispel darkness. We still need to hear of Christ's birth and the message of hope, peace, greace, and love. We are not abandoned by God!!
As for the Wiesel quote by Rick on Dec. 20, for Wiesel at that point in his life and for some years later, God in the gallows referred to the death of God and not God's suffering with those who were killed. God was dead. There was no other explanation for the brutality Wiesel saw.
Sorry these remarks are so late in coming, Teek
Thanks for the great discussions this week! I like the idea of "home" being important. I have never been a refugee with no home. However, I am a pastor who when moving has no home to call one's own. Where do we place our faith. In a home, in one another. in our Lord. Thanks! Happy Holidays! bc
She was seven years old, picking olives on her aunt's ranch, when the news arrived. After several years of separation she and her two brothers would join her mother. The trip did not go as planned. The soldiers found them, interrogated them, then let them go, back where they started from.. They spent days with no food, then were helped by a family who only had beans to eat. Her mother sent more money, a lot more, this time they came on a plane. A new way of life began. Now she's 13, she shares a small four room frame house with her mother and her new stepfather, and two younger brothers. Yesterday, she spent most of Christmas Day with us, with our family, as she does most holidays, vacations etc. My 10 year old calls her her "older sister"She knows about dreams, she knows about fear, she knows about exile, but most importantly she knows about God's love and what it means to be a part of the family of God. This Sunday I will be talking about families, all kinds of families, the joys, the struggles and the unanswered or unanswerable questions.
Nailbender, Thank-you for your touching post on 12-23, for the past four years we have had Hispanic babies portraying Baby Jesus in the Children's Christmas Program, ALL of their parents arrived in ways similiar to that which you described. Thank-you for sharing.
Viajera in GA
OK, folks. As a moderator, I only do this about four or five times a years. This is a wonderful, though-provoking forum. If the final result is worth it, I'll post it.
Again.
Many thanks.
Thank you all for continuing the discussion this week. Your thinking helps me to get on track with my thinking.
This text opens up a whole lot of questions. Generally our questions revolve around, "Why did God...?" Let the children die? Allow Hitler? Allow me to have cancer?
Human will - free will. What about Bondage of the Will? As Gerhard Forde(professor emeritus, Luther Seminary, St. Paul) is fond of saying, it's more that we are bound to sin.
If we think of the rebellious human, bound will, perhaps a more appropriate question this text raises would be, "Why did Herod...?" kill the children? Not worship the Christ child? Lie to the Wise Men from the East? Or, Why did Hitler do evil things?
Not that there is a clear answer to those "Why?" questions, either, but it perhaps takes God out of the "hot seat" and puts us sinners there, which is the whole point of the Child being born in the first place.
Just some musings from Martin in Sioux Falls, SD
I'm going to preach on "The Real Prince of Egypt". I'm delighted that finally there is a movie that will appeal to children everywhere about the power of God in Moses. I'm building on it and preaching about God being so powerful that he sent Jesus for our salvation. Moses had his part in our history also. And there are similarities: The killing of babies which is why Moses was placed in the Nile, God's hand upon Moses safety (the two midwives who let him live, actually 5 women who helped Moses survive) just like God protected Jesus. Just like God will guide our steps if we are obedient to Him, opened to Him. This scripture is about God working through the prophets and through Joseph, through his angels and through Jesus. This scripture is about God working in our lives. LS
As I read these postings I see one after another struggle. I offer this quote for ltIcon is which icon to show for files which do not have an icon # explicitly set.
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As I read these postings and see one after another struggle withthis reading I am reaminded of the following quote. I offer it here for whatever meaning it may have for you:
"Those who believe they believe in God, but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God himself (sic)." Unamuno (as quoted by Madeline L'Engle)
JoyinX@aol.com
My dear friends,
Please understand, I do not take exception to the various posts which we have offered this week and mean no offense by the comments which follow. I deeply appreciate the time which each of you give to this forum and to one another. However, I am puzzled and perhaps a bit troubled that we did not reflect on how deeply this passage connects Jesus into our world of flesh. Instead, if I understand the bulk of our struggle, we spent most of our time pondering questions which can never be answered. Yet, here in this passage, we see a God who refuses to forego the human condition. We see a God who so deeply connects with us, that this God becomes a refugee. How amazing that is! God so deeply loves us, that God takes on the condition of the most powerless among us.
So often we continue to point to a God on high, a God who continues pointing us to the underside. So often, we continue to seek a God who is about power, a God who continues pointing us to powerlessness. So often, we continue to praise God of glory, a God who continues pointing us to those who are the most depressed, the little ones, the ptocheuo of our reality, so much so that this God humbles himself and lives the life of the refugee.
As most of us sit in our warm homes tonight, as most of us go to bed with food in our stomachs, as most of us rise tomorrow morning, put on fine clothes and make our way to sometimes ornate temples, let us not forget the one who flees. Let us not forget that God refuses to stay tucked safely away in the ethereal, but comes to this earth, places his feet squarely into the struggle of our situation and calls us to do the same.
My friends, if we are to fully recognize and "be" with Jesus, then our struggle must extend beyond the realm of the intellect and connect us with dirt, connect us with flesh, and connect us with the struggle of reality, where children die and refugees flee. This truth of Jesus, is not about thesis, is not about doctrine, and is not even about whether or not prophesies fulfill scripture, the truth of Jesus is about the reality of loving relationship which connects us to God, and connects us to our neighbor. And love always, by its very nature, connects flesh on flesh. Let us go and, as RevJan so astutely stated, "deal with the babies," not only those of scripture, but those in our very midst.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
PS - Viajera in GA, thank you for your beautiful witness.
"Our Savior's Infant Cries Were Heard" by Tom Troeger in `Borrowed Light' is the poem Talks about God trusting Christ to human care, while . . . TS in MN
For every gift given, there is a cost. The gift of the Christ child, resulted in the death of the children of Bethlehem. I am not so bothered about why God let that happen as much as I am sobered by how much we take for granted gifts given to us. It may have been Vine DeLoria who shared this--when he was a new seminary student and hearing the professor talk about the crucifixion of Jesus and how Jesus died for the sins of the world--DeLoria asked the professor, "Did the blood touch the ground?" The professor could not understand why that was important. But in the tradition of the Lakota people, it was very important. "If the blood did not touch the ground, then there was no sacrifice." While we do not like to confront the terrible reality of our world, the truth is that no gift of love or grace of any import is worth anything--is truly a sacred gift--unless someone has willingly made a sacrifice.
So how do we explain the sacrifices made by innocent children, who had no choice in the matter? The same way we confront the sacrifice of Jesus, of others throughout history who have given their lives as a consequence of an act that was to bring something good into the world. We do not take any gift for granted. We confront the terrible truth that some gifts will entail costs that go beyond our understanding. We do not ignore this reality nor do we try to sugar coat it with some obscene rationalization.
Nevertheless...God has the last word. And no child will be lost because of the evil of others or of ourselves. Yet that is something that we have to accept on faith, because you and I will see many more innocents suffer before the kingdom comes. This is the other side of Christmas.
RevRoy, VA
To one and all:....What a tremendous exchange on the Matthew text for December 27th....Some of us DPS participants will be using this text in the liturgical setting of The Feast of the Holy Family. With this in mind I can not but be proud of the broad family of DPS contributors, whatever be the "apparent" conflicts in our exchange. I, for one, feel graced to be challenged by so many rich comments and insights. As one family member to the larger family I can only say, "Thank you one and all!"....My final observation is to link and contrast the insightful quotation submitted by JoyinX (reprinted below) with the inspiring contributions of Nail-Bender, and so many others....Our DPS family is blessed with such passionate and eloquent belief in the Transcendent God made incarnate in the Word gently spoken to us in faith.
"Those who believe they believe in God, but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God himself (sic)." Unamuno (as quoted by Madeline L'Engle)
Gregory in Dot, MA .
It is hard to live in this century and consider the extermination of 6 to 7 million Jews by Hitler and not wonder how an all-powerful and all-loving God would allow such a thing. Some of the Jews who survived the death camps decided that a God who did not halt such evil was not worth worshipping. The Lord's Prayer seeks God's strength to protect us from the time of trial, and if we are alive during it, to see it through with faith. I pray that prayer but I do not know what I would believe if I saw that boy dying slowly in agony in Eli Weisel’s concentration camp.
If the Nazi holocaust isn’t enough to consider, we have Dresden and smart bombs and Pol Pot and Ethnic Cleansing and the Armenian genocide by the Turks which almost took my mother-in law’s family in the early decades of this century. “No one remembers Armenia,” Hitler said as he made plans for the “Final Solution”
Where was my God when all these things happened? The questions I wrestle with do not make me any less able a “shepherd” of my flock, nor do they diminish the power and authority of the Almighty. To raise such questions in the pulpit may be risky but I believe there’s a deep hunger among Christians to get real answers, even if they end in a question mark. God knows I wish I had more of the certainty some pastors seem to have. But I recall Jesus praying to the point where he “sweated blood” and ask that the cup be taken from him...and in his fear and doubts and agony he also prayed “yet not my will, but thy will be done.” I am content to remember that my Lord from the Cross asked God Almighty why he had been forsaken. “Thy will be done” did not remove his earlier doubts, and his question asked in agony did not mark the end of his faith.
The name “Israel” means “the one who contends with God,” and there’s no doubt that the people Israel (old and new) keep right on “contending.” Doubts, questions, uncertainties are “the ants in the pants” of faith as Fredrick Buechner puts it. We are left nearly 2,000 years later with stories of a God who allowed his only son to die the most agonizing and degrading death possible in his time, so that the world might be reconciled through him. What kind of a God is that?
One who will stop at nothing to make things right.
This Christmas Eve I visited a woman whose husband died December 25, 1997 at Christmas dinner at the home of friends. I visited a family who lost their 16 year old son in a car crash just down the road from me several months ago. 700 to 900 friends, family and acquaintences went to his viewing. I spent three hours with them Christmas Eve and we talked theodicy. We are all stuck on the “why” question. His mom came up with the best answer: “(her son) will tell us why when we see him again.”
There are answers in Scripture but there are no easy answers. Jesus is the answer.
Da Rev in N MD
Joe in OH: Thanks for that poem! Used it in the bulletin w/credits to both you and its author. Da Rev in N MD
Thanks kbc in sc. And now may I offer you a thought to think about. I hope it will give you some direction for your faith journey. I can not bring myself to believe that God "takes" a child. But I don't believe God is powerless. Just because he doesn't "save" the child, does not mean that he couldn't. Does that mean God doesn't care? Again, I don't believe that. My own theology tells me that God is keeping a hands off approach for reasons we cannot fathom. To say that we can is to proclaim ourselves God and we cannot do that. Our knowledge compared to God's is like comparing earth with the whole universe and if you have been watching PBS's astronomy shows, you'll know that the universe we can see is getting bigger and bigger.
I have often said that God has to let us "grow" up at times. An illustrations I think of is when my son is struggling with something, trying to make it work or fit. My fatherly instinct is to rush to his help. But I don't. I stay back and watch because I know that for him to grow up, he needs to learn to solve his own problems. To be able to take care of himself. It is hard to stand by, but I know he will be better for it.
With God, I think the same thing happens. Why? I don't dare to guess. But I don't say it is so we can be independent. More like, maybe so we will learn about the glory and love of God. You know what they say. One does not really appreciate the good until we experience the bad. Like being sick and realizing how wonderful being healthy is. So God has a hands off approach from time to time because it is needed for reasons we may never understand until we enter his kingdom that has been made manifested. And in the meantime, God weeps with us because he wish it didn't have to be so, but it is necessary.
May God continues to empower our faith and beliefs.
Brandon in CA
Rick in Va said "As one who sits in the pews and hopes to one day stand in a pulpit, nothing is more damaging to one's faith than to see a shepherd question his/her own. "
For me the other side of that is that nothing is more uplifting to my faith than to see a shepherd asking the same questions as I do - that's one of the benefits of this site for me. The benefits come not only from seeing the questions, but seeing how they are debated (answered?) by others.
I agree with a lot of what's been said so far - that God must choose to limit his(her) omnipotence in allowing freewill to operate (or as someone else has said - I'd have been whacked out by now).
I'm coming to the conclusion that God can only act in the world through people - Herod obviously chose not to respond to God's will - the question for all of us is how are we called to respond to God's will - and whether we'll be ready to do so.
I'm not sure about God speaking to us in dreams - I always have very wierd, vivid ones, including elephants in trees, and trying to stick a giraffe in a garbage bin (to speak of a couple of recent ones)!!
Sorry if this is too late for most posters to this site - it's been hard to find the time to get on the computer!
Mary in Australia
Mary in Australia, I hear you about the weirdness of listening to dreams. I dreamt once that I ate a porcupine whole --spines and all-- which I decided meant that there was something I had to face that would be difficult to swallow! Perhaps giraffes in garbage cans and elephants in trees are like camels and needles' eyes, or straining out gnats to swallow camels?????????? Maybe we dream in parables... RevRake, Denton TX