Hi everyone! Yes, I know, I'm early and skipping to this particular Sunday's lections because I'm assigned by my priest to do the homily this first Sunday in Advent. Just want to ask one brief question: why does the lectionary at the beginning of Advent of Year A jump all the way to chapter 24 of Matthew instead of the beginning?? Most people in my church are in the throes of the "Christmas" season not really "Advent" if you know what I mean...
I'm curious to know what people would say...
-Will in CT
Will in CT -- The lessons for the 1st Sunday of Advent every year are taken from the apocalyptic speech that precedes the passion in each Synoptic gospel. This is because Advent is about both the first and the second coming of Christ. Read the Advent prayers, hymns and lections carefully and you will note this eschatalogical theme. "Oh come, Oh come, Emmanuel" is really about the 2nd coming, with the Church in the place of Israel. There is a gradual change from the beginning to the end of Advent, as the first coming/Christmas part comes more to the forefront. Hope this helps. -- Mike in Maryland
Late last week, Brother Eric in KS wrote:
Rather than reply directly to Rick's queries about my use of cue cards in preaching (which will take me even farther afield from the pericope), I would like to direct us back to the question of how we present the atonement to a modern/postmodern generation and how to preach from Luke's gospel.
The following is from the New Interpreter's Bible (Vol. IX, pg. 457, R. Alan Culpepper writing):
"Luke does not defend any particular theory of the atonement. The traditional theories generally fall into one of the following categories: sacrifice, ransom, or moral influence. Luke never calls Jesus 'the Lam of God who takes away the sin of the world' (John 1:29 NRSV); cf. John 1:36; Acts 8:32). Neither does the Lukan Jesus say 'the Son of Man came ... to give his life a ransom for many' (Mark 10:45 NRSV). At most, the two on the road to Emmaus report, 'We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel.' (24:21; cf. 1:68; 2:38). No proof text suffices in these matters, but the absence of even such references as one finds in the other Gospels underscores the extent to which Luke relies on the account of Jesus' death to carry the message of its significance. How one chooses to explain it, after all, is quite secondary to the confession that Jesus is the Christ, our Savior."
I think the last sentence is particularly relevant both to the dialog between me and Rick, and to preaching this text tomorrow.
Blessings, (the oafish) Eric in KS
I wonder if Culpepper sees any significance toward a Lukan reference to sacrifice and/or atonement in Luke 22:19-20?
(Luke 22:19-20 NIV) "And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." {20} In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
I think the Jewish listeners, whether they be allegorical or literal in their understanding, would see the significance of these words and their pointing to the issue of atonement/sacrifice...
Wouldn't you say Brother Eric? Or should this Lukan theory, along with so much of Paul's writing, also be debunked by today's enlightened men (and women, and of course today, the transgendered men/women) of letters?
Rick in Va
Rick in Va
I enjoy EVERYONE'S posts...
I love to hear, see, experience the struggle of other clergy and lay people...without being judged an oaf... or worse...
The struggles of others help me with my struggle... to preach something that my folks can be challenged and empowered by... as one of my "flock" said leaving church recently...
"I come away from your sermons with more questions than answers."...
to which I replied... "Good, then I've done my job!"...
as I see it our job is indeed to challenge the scriptures when in comparisson to the day and time they were written.
To confront the comfortable and comfort the hurting... or however that goes...
True dialogue is a give and take...
driving home last night in a rain storm from Sioux Falls, SD... north... I came accross a radio talk show...
A caller... was promoting the new "Talk to the Hand" promotion... their premise is that the world is too concerned about the 9-11 events, anthrax, Afghanistan and the like... and whenever anyone talks about those "bad" topics... or that "negative" spirit... we are to say "Talk to the Hand" in other words, "shut up and don't be so negative"... the kicker was... the person promoting this "campaign" is a former "date drug" dealer.. the drug used to "rape" innocent unsuspecting women...
needless to say, he lost all credibility... his defense... "I don't do that any more..." although that was after he bragged that he sold so much that he should be serving a 20 year jail sentance...
Callers reacting to the "gentleman" were treated with an almost incoherent speaking in tongue babble... ending with "Talk to the Hand"...
oh me...
I'm reminded of UMC Bishop Woodie White Now, may God torment you --- May God disturb you --- May God keep before you --- the hungry, the dying, the oppressed, the rejected. Then, may God give you the compassion to do the work you ?HAVE? to do --and may you do your best --- Then -- and only then -- - May God grant you peace --- until we meet again. -Amen-
pulpitt in ND
RevRoger in OH
Just in case you don't review last week's postings, I'm responding here as well. Yes, I would like to see what you have on the Hanging of the Greens. My church e-mail is gspc@microconnect.net
Do you want to see what I used in 1998? Thanks for your help.
LL in L
Eric in KS wrote late last week:
Rick, I answered your question about "Christ's killers" and "God's will" in the hope that we might have a civilized discussion of that idea apropos of this pericope and the preaching most of us will have to do on Sunday morning. Now that I have experienced the barbs of your commentary (and witnessed them directed at others on the discussion site and the previous discussions of this text), I no longer feel called to respond to your posts. I am sure that on quite a few things we could find agreement, but so long as you cannot engage in discussion with ad hominem attacts on your "oafish" correspondents or from mischaracterizations of what we say, we will never find out. I spent several years sparring verbally (and caustically) with others as a trial attorney; I left that profession and don't intend to engage in such repartee here.
Peace and blessings, Eric in KS
I have responded prayerfully over on the Discussion site (http://www.desperatepreacher.com/discussion). I would implore those of you who think me rude, crass, obnoxious, etc, to take the time to read it.
Rick in Va
Rick in VA asked "I would implore those of you who think me rude, crass, obnoxious, etc, to take the time to read" what he has posted on the discussion site.
I did, Rick. And I have replied at the discussion site.
Now, shall we move on to discussion of this pericope from Matthew?
Blessings, Eric in KS
Eric,
I have replied to your reply. I'm afraid we remain at loggerheads.
As to this pericope...
I would imagine that the Flood would be viewed as allegory by many. So the references to Noah present a special problem. And the references to the end-times... well, that of course might engender references to the best selling Left Behind series, a series written by a couple of fundamentalists. What special problems does this week's Lectionary bring to the modern mind, to the ivory tower professional, the intellectual in the pews (or more specifically the pulpit)? No sarcasm here... honest questions...
Sincerely,
Rick in Va
Rev Roger and LL; I would be interested in the Hanging of the greens stuff. my email is revncarmichael@yahoo.com
Nancy Wi
Rev Roger and LL; I would be interested in the Hanging of the greens stuff. my email is revncarmichael@yahoo.com
Nancy Wi
Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
24:43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.
24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
These verse caught my attention. What is "awake"? What is "ready"? As we ready our houses and our churches for the birth of our savior do we fail to ready our lives? When do we pass on to our children the meanings behind our symbols? The Christmas tree on a San Antonio float brought delighted applause- it was covered with flags and other things military. I am still processing that. my tree has ornaments from the past and present, things that hold meaning for our family. It includes many Christian symbols, the Holy family, stars, camels, wisemen. Our country is a wonderful place but this tree seemed to say "God Bless America" and to all others be grateful to us for we alone are blessed by God. Should we "awake" to the fact that God's blessing is for all of humankind? Just a rambling.... Nancy-Wi
Pulpit in ND thanks for the Bishop Whites blessing. I may use it in the " annual Christmas letter." Nancy-Wi
If the season of Advent is one of waiting and watching and being ready why do so many churches fall into the "bad habit" of early Christmas decorations just like the malls?
I'd never thought of it till last year when I was at a church where they waited until Christmas to place their decorations in the sanctuary. I must admit I liked it more than the early hanging of the greens. It reminded me to wait and not rush the season. Anyone have any idea? Phil in Iowa
to Nancy in Wi...a resounding "AMEN!" My university-student daughter and I both began to lament the myopic view we tend to have in our wonderful country back in September. We covenanted then and there to make "God Bless the World" our prayer both privately and publically. Rev. She
to Nancy in Wi...a resounding "AMEN!" My university-student daughter and I both began to lament the myopic view we tend to have in our wonderful country back in September. We covenanted then and there to make "God Bless the World" our prayer both privately and publically. Rev. She
It's hard to approach this pericope without seeing the "Left Behind" entertainment that's been pervading our culture. But, looking at it again for the first time, I see some unexpected calamities used as illustrations that urge us to stay alert. A flood. A thief in the night. And, people disappearing. How do we know that the ones who disappeared were taken to heaven? Perhaps they were kidnapped mysteriously, and the person who's left is the lucky one? That would fit the pattern of calamities. Just an early thought. MTSOfan
Yes, I think that we are too quick to put a template over this scripture, we assume we "know" what it says. It DOESn't say whether its better to be taken or left,and one could argue that the taken ones are "swept away" as the people in the flood who were judged, when only Noah and his family are "left". Also, I find it intriguing that the homeowner would have kept the thief OUT if only he had known what time the thief was coming! Do we try to keep Christ out of Christmas too? Is Jesus an intruder into our lives who would steal the things dearest to our hearts? Hmmm... Rev P
About Christmas decorations, Phil in Iowa wrote: "I'd never thought of it till last year when I was at a church where they waited until Christmas to place their decorations in the sanctuary. I must admit I liked it more than the early hanging of the greens. It reminded me to wait and not rush the season. Anyone have any idea?"
That's what we do at St. Francis. We follow the Sarum tradition and use royal blue for frontals, vestments, etc. in Advent. After the last Eucharist on the 4th Sunday of Advent, we do our "Hanging of the Greens" -- no formal service, just everyone pitching in and helping decorate for the Christmas season -- we do sing Christmas carols as we work and sometimes the choir & organist use the time to rehearse their anthems for the Christmas Eve services.
No rushing the season here.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Rev P asked, "Do we try to keep Christ out of Christmas too? Is Jesus an intruder into our lives who would steal the things dearest to our hearts? Hmmm... "
I preached a sermon on that idea, the metaphor of "thief" as describing God. I'll dig it up for you if you wish -- let me know your e-mail address.
Blessings, Eric in KS
The leader of my young parents class watch the first of the Left Behind movies. They were impressed with it, but when I later talked with them about it, they were not at all aware of other ways of looking at God's vision of the future. I feel I must deal with that issue for them this Sunday. But what a great Sunday to do it--a time of anticipation and hope and JOY--not fear (as the movies promote.) Sharon in Bethlehem
I am trying to decide how to handle v. 41& 42 of the text given the popularity of the Left Behind Series. I did some checking and the verb used in v. 41 and 42 translated as "taken" is usually translated as received and is not the same verb as used in 1 THess. in talking about the rapture, so I'm not sure that the verses are referring to the rapture. But reality is many of hte peopl in our pews will assunme that it is talking about th e rapture and considering there does not seem to be any distinction between each of the two persons, it could leave a rather hopeless feeling that no matter what we do, we've got a 50/50 chance. Because it does not say who was better off the one left or taken or who was "good" or "bad". IN the context of Matthew 24, it seems to say more about being prepared - we do not know the hour or the day of the end time - or the end of our own time (our own death) and so CHrist urges us to be prepared - to live lives ready to meet our Saviour whether in our death or at the Parousia. Also in light of events on 9/11; there were some who were taken (died) and some who were left behind (alive) in the Twin towers and Pentagon - how will people view these texts in light of 9/11? just rambling - any thoughts on this? LCShelly in NC
Eric in KS,
I have posted two questions I would like to see you answer on the discssion site as you have the time.
Thanks,
Rick in Va
Rick in VA:
I have answered your questions. Now let's leave this part of the site to it's intended purposes.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Wow! Eric and Rick... listening to you two is like watching Politically Incorrect!
Phil in Iowa. What a struggle. Folks want to sing Xmas carols, have red poinsettias, and hang greens. Well, here's my middle and hopefully teaching ground:
We hang greens... even trees up in the Chancel... but no lights... no ribbons. The smell is there... the hint is there... the promise is there... the "tension" is there, which I think typifies Advent. I use Advent hymns til the middle of Dec.... then slowly, scripturally appropriately start bringing in the more traditional (folks will actually look for a church that sings "carols.") Then on the last Sunday before Christmas, white lights and white poinsettias. For Xmas Eve... gold ribbons. And then we keep it up through the liturgical Christmas season.
Hope that helps.
Hey.... doesn't anyone think the Psalm is like totally appro pos for this time in history???
Pax, Pamela
Wow! Eric and Rick... listening to you two is like watching Politically Incorrect!
Phil in Iowa. What a struggle. Folks want to sing Xmas carols, have red poinsettias, and hang greens. Well, here's my middle and hopefully teaching ground:
We hang greens... even trees up in the Chancel... but no lights... no ribbons. The smell is there... the hint is there... the promise is there... the "tension" is there, which I think typifies Advent. I use Advent hymns til the middle of Dec.... then slowly, scripturally appropriately start bringing in the more traditional (folks will actually look for a church that sings "carols.") Then on the last Sunday before Christmas, white lights and white poinsettias. For Xmas Eve... gold ribbons. And then we keep it up through the liturgical Christmas season.
Hope that helps.
Hey.... doesn't anyone think the Psalm is like totally appro pos for this time in history???
Pax, Pamela
Speaking of decorating. I keep the nativity scene in action. The stable is there, but the figures move around the sanctury until appropriate times. The star will be hung but not lighted. This is my first year in this church. Poinsettias do not come in until the last weekend.
Verse 44 says to always be ready, for we do not know the time and place. That is appropriate for a birth too. Never really know when a baby will be born or where for sure, and you certainly don't have much of a clue as to how that will impact your life. My question then " how can we become ready"? Maybe that is where I will start, the journey is just begun.... Nancy-WI
Are any of you interested in preaching this lection? A lot here, while interesting, belongs in a different forum - the discussion site. I don't preach this week but enjoy the breaking of the Gospel bread that occurs in this forum.
It would be interesting to read why so many have trouble how to preach end times no matter the season. Certainly this is stock in trade for some preachers. I just heard a news story about someone who is tying in Sept 11 to the end times.
How has the prayer of our forebears in faith, Maranantha! turned from hope in redemption and salvation into a fear filled event? It seems to me that we are all too comfortable in our lives to have hope in the future.
Deke in Texas -- Pace e Bene
Eric, I'd love to see the sermon with "God as intruder" theme. Please email me at pk_1@hotmail.com Thanks! Rev P
Deke,
I'd like to personally understand the phobia we seem to have as a culture about fear, or more specifically fear of the Lord.
Did Christ, at any point in His ministry, use fear to in some way convey the magnitude, importance, the relevance, of His message? Not exclusively (obviously) but I think there's strong Scriptural support for arguing that He certainly did.
Is there an even-handed way to minister (preach) in which fear can be motivating without being paralyzing?
Hell-fire and damnation alone are to be avoided. But good news is only good news when the bad news has been brought into focus.
What's the bad news? What did Christ say was the bad news? What are the consequences of not 'keeping awake'? What are the consequences of not being ready? Should we fear those consequences?
Is fear motivating us as we respond to the terrorists? Are fear and diligence related? When we lock our doors at night (to keep out or at least slow down thieves), what part does fear play into that?
Rick in Va
Nancy in WI:
You've got my creative juices flowing. I'm thinking of that old song (pretty sure it was Chicago, but maybe Eagles) "Does anybody really know what time it is?" I, too, interpret wakefulness to mean alertness, or preparedness (remember both the WISE and FOOLISH bridesmaids slept). However many may try to interpret the times (haven't we all seen church marquees foretelling the last days since 9/11), the idea is about being prepared and not looking around trying to find evidence of the apocalypse. Our waiting is in our faithfulness to holy work - one will be in the field, one will be grinding meal ... Keeping on with life, with the added knowledge that our Savior is coming.
Revealing my generation, I'm Sally in GA
So it is easier for us to discuss decorations during Advent. Okay, here goes:
We use Sarum Blue during the Advent Season. We put wreathes on the doors of the church, but with blue ribbon, changing them on the Fourth Sunday of Advent after the last service of the day. We use only blue candles in the Advent Wreath.
We will have Christmas Trees in the church with only little white lights which will not be lit until Christmas Eve at the First Celebration.
The Creshe is in place but remains empty until Christmas Eve at theFirst Celebration.
Now for the Gospel.
We will receive four adults as Catechumens on Sunday. Being ready has something to do with receiving faith. Not only for neophytes but also for us seasoned and aging Christians!
tom in ga
Someone mentioned being ready and not knwoing even the time of our own death. My dad died on Nov. 6 after a brief illness. What had really struck me is that he was prepared (and I don't just mean in the eternal sense). I described it to one of my friends, "There was a set to his face." I could tell that he was fine with the surgery, but he was also preparing himself to die. He wanted to live, but I personally believe he chose to die when the time came. It's this kind of preparation that I would hope to have in facing the future: a set to my face ("He set his face to go to Jerusalem") and a profound trust, allowing God to lead whatever that will mean. To be prepared and willing to face what I've never experienced before. Is that not what Advent points us toward?
Sally in GA
Just a thought or two from my discussion group this week. We spent quite a while talking about what does it mean for us that Jesus Christ Will come again? What does it mean for our congregations? I know that this is part of our liturgy and part of our understanding of the fullness of God's plan, but just what are we getting ready for? When a women is expecting, often times she (or the family) will prepare for the coming of a child -- not knowing the day or the hour... due dates only work in a theoretical sense, it seems. Clothes are purchased, nurserys are prepared, perhaps a former guest room or office is renovated to provide space, dedicated, specific space... as well as figuring out maternity leaves, child care, differing work schedules ... to provide time. Seems like this may well be part of readiness. Not about whether or not our presents are bought & wrapped or all of our decorations are pulled out and put up... That's all for now. Come visit me over in the Psalms... I'm trying to preach from there this week and I need some help! Thanks & Shalom -- RevAmy
For Rick, There was no bad news as such in the Gospel because what was bad wasn't news. People knew that they were under sentence of death for sin and that there was no real way out. The good news is that there is now a way, which is the truth and the light, that leads to eternal life. Jesus did tell His hearers that not accepting this new way would lead to wailing and gnashing of teeth in everlasting fire. I don't think that motivated many to change their minds. I think that the good news of the Gospel brought far more to Him then those who were scared into it.
Last week we celebrated Christ the King and the gospel lection was of the crucifixion and if you think of the cross as the only earthly throne of our King, then the only command Jesus made from it was to forgive. He asked our heavenly Father to forgive us and then ushered in a thief into His kingdom.
We lock our doors out of prudence and hopefully not fear. We know that there are those who seek to rob and do other harm and so we take precautions. If we do this out of fear then eventually we become paralyzed by that fear and are no longer able to function. I know many that do not approach God out of fear. They are so afraid of God that they are unable to speak (pray) for fear that He will notice and destroy them. This was the problem of the Hebrews, they wanted spokesmen between them and God. Jesus as the Incarnation became both our spokesman and as God allowed us to interact with God on a sort of equal basis.
In today's culture in Europe and North America we seem not to recognize our wretchedness since we have it so "good". What do you say would make the message of the Gospel appeal to people who feel that they make their own happiness? That's all for now. Deke in Tx - Pace e Bene
Deke,
You confused me. Of course there is no bad news in the Gospel. The Gospel is good news. What could be bad in that?
I'm trying to convey the thinking that says the Good news is good because ...??!!
As to Western culture and having it 'good'? If we're talking strictly material wealth, leisure time, education, opportunity, etc., yes, things are not just good, but very good. But the Scriptures teach that what we yearn for and need are usually very different than what we desire and want. We yearn for meaning, purpose, and a relationship with our Creator.
I'm going to cut and paste a devotional I received this morning from Ravi Zacharias Ministries. It's written by Stuart McCallister. Excuse the length. But I do find it worthy and relevant.
“Come and See” Stuart McAllister
Whether we are aware of it or not, the search for transcendence compels the direction of most of our lives. Surely the resurgence in spirituality, particularly in the West, reveals that each of us longs to be united to someone or something greater than ourselves. However, sometimes this search for transcendence is not necessarily embarked upon as a search for God, but rather an escape from our world.
Those who follow this religious path often investigate Buddhism, for its teachings claim to offer the follower the means to end suffering and desire through meditation and its disciplines. In fact, sojourners on this path attempt to rid themselves not only of the very human desire to be united to someone beyond ourselves, but even the very idea of the self. But can we really escape the reality that we are individuals, uniquely created to know love and to desire relationship? And moreover, is not the attempt to escape the shackles of our humanity in itself a desire?
This desire to escape is also voiced by many searching for “peak” experiences, whether through skydiving or another sexual encounter. Consider, for example, the world of extreme sports: It beckons the participant to take serious risks, conquer danger and pain, and in doing so, find something that is missing in everyday existence. And yet I am reminded of what I have heard my colleague Ravi Zacharias say on occasion. Says Ravi: “The loneliest moment in life is when you’ve just experienced the ultimate, and it’s let you down.” Yes, we can go from peak experience to peak experience, but none last, and we are left longing for more.
So what—or who—is big enough to capture this longing for transcendence? Many people claim to have the answer, but few actually declare that THEY ARE the answer. Yet a carpenter son’s did just that, and we encounter Him in the pages of the New Testament time and again beckoning us to come and to see.
Listen to these words about Jesus in Luke, chapter 4: “The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.’ Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
The enormity of Jesus’ words! He had come “to proclaim freedom for the prisoners” and “to release the oppressed.” Yet He provides more than a way of escape. For in declaring "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing" Jesus declares that He is the fulfillment of all that we long for.
Copyright (p)(c) 2001 Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM)
http://www.sliceofinfinity.org
Rick in Va
Eric...
Might you be interested in one more reply?
Over on the Discussion Site... thanks.
Rick in Va
I rather like what the commentator in the New Interpreter's Bible has to say about this:
"Throughout church history, there have always been groups that, convinced they knew when the world would end, would quit their jobs and wait with eager anticipation for Christ's appearance. In Matthew's understanding of the Christian faith, the second coming doesn't cause us to quit the job of being the church in the world; rather, it calls us to take it up with even more urgency." NIB, Vol. VIII, pg. 448.
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS -- Rick in VA -- check it out.
My mother died on November 18 after 7 weeks involving two surgeries. I was lucky. I could be with her and I got to tell her I loved her. I did that every day I saw her. God gave me and my family time. That time is denied to many. We did not know if she would live from day to day. Do any of us really? We know neither the day nor the time. PH in OH
Sally-Ga Today I had a couple in who were filling me in on their health and doctors. the man may have to have an anyerusm (spelling bad!)repaired. He is in every sense of the word "ready" since the consequences of his surgery may be very bad, he is prepared to live until the aneyrism give out. I have seen many in my CPE experience with the same look. I am glad your Dad was "prepared". When people go on about the rapture, I tell them that if they are true believers in it, then they should make every effort to be doing what Christ taught and not a moaning about an eventuality. Nancy-Wi
It must be that sort of day.... I had a couple in the office this morning who are preparing for the husband's death. He is 54 (she is 50 ... my age). He was diagnosed in June with glioblastoma. Glioblastoma is a very invasive form of primary-site brain cancer -- I am painfully familiar with it as my brother died at 49 as a result of the same form of cancer.
This gentlemen has already beaten the odds. 50% of glioblastoma patients are dead within six months of the diagnosis. The rest die within two years. So in a very real way, he does know when the hour is coming with a good deal more certainty than the rest of us. He could, one supposes, spend his time feeling sorry for himself and doing nothing. Instead, he and his wife are making all the preparations together. They have done their estate planning; they have made sure their two adult daughters understand what is happening; they came in today to talk about pre-planning his funeral and about encouraging their adult children, who have never been baptized, to join the church.
It could have been a real "downer" meeting, but it wasn't! These were very "with it" people and it was a joy to counsel with them. Everyone should have the healthy attitude toward end-of-life issues that they have.
Blessings, Eric in KS
When Jesus says "one will be taken and one will be left" I have always seen this as one being taken with Jesus to his heavenly home, and the other being "left out" not left behind to try to make it in the next, more difficult round. (Sounds likea computer game) Somehow, this rapture notion seems to an elitist thing, providing only fear, and maybe even giving the feeling that we don't have to try too hard to win others, because they will have a second chance during the tribulation, and they deserve the difficult time it will be, because they did not come to faith now like we did. I don't find any second chance after the second coming in the Gospels. This is our chance. Keep awake! The Son of Man is coming. Now is the acceptable time, now is the day of salvation. JRW in OH
Often times I hear coaches talking about their team not having a "sense of urgency" in their play. How often do I get the same feeling that our people do not have a "sense of urgency" in their faith. Thanks to those who have given the insight to "One will be taken and one will be left." The blessing does appear to be for those who are left to continue to be faithful servants to the Lord. Too often we encounter people who are "so heavenly bound that they are no earthly good." The first coming of Jesus was all about servanthood and sacrifice. There is no reason to think it any different today.
KPM in PA
Could someone give a simple and clear explanation of the title Son of Man? JR in CA
I'm going to call mine, "Coming and Going" and, with a particular slant just for this church, consider God's timing over our own. It's pretty simple, but Christ's coming is to get us going for him. Corny, I know, but it's only Wednesday!
Anyone else? There seem to be a few posts in this general direction.
PH in OH - my heart aches with yours. It's hard to find good news to preach when your news hasn't been too good lately. May God bring you comfort.
Sally in GA
28 NOV 01
Good point, Rick, about Christ not using fear and intimidation to influence those He came to save. A rare William Barclay quote from last week(with some relevance for today):"The cross is the proof that there is no length to which the love of God will refuse to go in order to win men's (sic) hearts." (commentary on Colossians). I guess it was the Eric/Rick "discussion" early this week that made me think of theories of atonement and the "results/purpose of the cross. Eric, please send me your sermon dealing with the metaphor of GOD as thief... are you referring to how God/Christ "steals" from modern Western Christians the material emphasis of Christmas? Thanks, Peter in WI pkne@hotmail.com
JR in Ca,
John Piper (one of Eric's favorite preachers... he said with tongue firmly planted in cheek) in a sermon that can be read in its entirety at http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper92/12-27-92.htm, sees the reference to Son of Man in the following way:
"Son of Man" was Jesus' favorite title for himself when he was on the earth. You might think it refers merely to his humanity, and so is only a title of humility. But in fact it was probably that, plus a lot more, because of its use in Daniel 7:13-14. In Daniel the term "son of man" or "one like a son of man" refers to a great ruler.
I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father] and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
So when John says that he saw "one like a son of man" standing in the middle of the lamp stands, he means that he saw someone with dominion and glory and kingly power with authority over all the nations and over all the peoples and who would rule the world forever and ever because his kingdom could not be destroyed.
The one who stands among the churches and trims our wicks and fans our flames is the one who received from the Ancient of Days dominion and glory and kingdom over all rule and power and authority in heaven and on earth. We need to see this today, just like the seven churches needed to hear it in John's day. It is "the son of man" who walks among the lamps stands. And that means one with everlasting dominion whose kingdom cannot be destroyed. We must renew this eternal focus and assurance again and again in the midst of the adversities and the allurements of life."
John Piper.
And Eric... you can send me that sermon that others are asking for at rickinva@desperatepreacher.com.
Thanks.
The thief sermon, friends, is on the web... Here's the URL:
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/csermons/ordtime-pr14c-y2k+1.htm
You may recall that we had the Lukan version of the theif metaphor on the 10th Sunday after Pentecost, August 12. That's when this sermon was preached. Some of you may find your own words in my text -- I found the DSP discussion very helpful in crafting the homily. Reading over it, however, I note that I am a lousy typist and that there are some little words missing ... you can probably make sense of it anyway.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I am feeling pretty stupid! I thought that the startpage had a prayer for humanity printed on it. I can't find it now. Help! Nancy
Eric in KS -- Tell your man with glio not to give up. We have a lady diagnosed SIX years ago who's alive today and well.
Tim In NY: Jesus is answer two questions in chapters 24 and 25. The first part of chapter 24 is Jesus responding to "What are the signs" of the temple falling. Our passage begins his answer to "when this will occur," and not "how." His intent I believe in that rapture remark is to primarily say it will happen quickly, and not so much describe exactly what will take place. The bottom line of all his answers is "no one knows, so be prepared." Also, note the change from the beginning of 24 to the end of 25. It begins with stark warnings of pain and suffering, but by the end of 25 we are being taught about being compassionate (sheep and goats). These end time warnings are not intended to make us disengage from the world, but to embrace the hurting people as the best way to "be prepared." One final note is that the greek for eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage is a audically boring, particularly in Luke where there's a nasal sound to the words. I think the intention is to say the normal day to day stuff is not enough, but can lull us to sleep.
The mystical spirituality in the proactive hard work of "Waiting", "Watching", in the sense of not having YHWH; as in the experience of "thick darkness" where if one is to encounter the "God above God, who appears out of God's disappearance"(Tillich on "Waiting"), then one must turn loose of the god possessed in past religious experience, or in theological doctrine, or in a library of books called the Bible, or in liturgy, etc.; as in the autobiographical journey in quest of God recorded by the unknown mystic in "The Cloud of Unknowing"; so to me the Advent experience as disclosed in this scripture is relevant to the Benedictine Model of prayer as well as two contemporary poems: (1) in the Benedictine Model of "praying scripture", the scripture is read four times with the first reading using raw senses, the second using the mind, the third using the heart, the fourth in the silent stillness of nothingness one "waits" upon God to speak. (2) in Archibald MacLeish's "J.B.": J.B.: "It's too dark to see." Sarah: "Then blow on the coal of the heart, my darling." J.B.: "The coal of the heart..." Sarah: "It's all the light now."... "Blow on the coal of the heart. The candles in the churches are out. The lights have gone out in the sky. Blow on the coal of trhe heart And we'll see by and by..."... "We'll see where we are. The wit won't burn and the wet soul smoulders. Blow on the coal of the heart and we'll know.. We'll know..." (3) From The poetry of T. S. Eliot: "I said to my soul, be still, and wait without hope For hope would be hope for thewrong thing; wait without love For love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith But the faith and the love and the hope are all in the waiting. Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought: So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing."
The sacramental spirituality of Advent "waiting" in "thick darkness" is hard work! [PaideiaSCO reflections in north ga mts]
If anyone is up to doing a good old fashioned three point sermon with each point beginning with a 'W', here's an outline I'm using to introduce Advent as whole. Waking focusing on becoming what we are in our baptism (see the Romans passage); Waiting as citizens of heaven for our Saviour who is to come from there; Watching with preparedness and joyful expectation for his sudden return. I composed a sermon along these lines complete with a finishing song when I couldn't get to sleep around 4 a.m. It seemed pretty profound at the time. Now if I can only remember everything.
R.G. in Ontario
Thanks for your helpful comments. I get so much out of this. Here's the opening of my sermon. Thought it might be useful for others.
Advent means waiting. We wait for the celebration of the first coming of Christ. We wait for his second coming. We wait for prayers to be answered. We wait for God to act. Advent is a very human season — it is all about waiting, sometimes anxiously, but also with hopeful anticipation.
How do we wait for God? It’s not passive waiting. It’s not waiting for the bus to come or the rain to stop. It is an active waiting in which we live in the present moment to the fullest potential.
Someone once confessed that she'd gone to church for 30 years waiting ... waiting for something to happen, and it never had. Everyone always thought of her as a pillar of faith, quietly going about the work of the church. The minister, young and newly ordained, was speechless. He had always assumed that this sweet old lady was secure in her faith, confident of her salvation when her day came. Now he realized that the occasional sorrow he saw in her far off glance was not the pain of long ago hardships —the pain of Lent, the dark days that come before the expected Resurrection. No, the pain he saw in her eyes was unfulfilled hope. She was stuck in the dark days of perpetual Advent, still waiting to be made new. The minister was speechless.
What would he say to her? What could he say? What can you say? Maybe after you had given it some thought, you would say something like this:
A miracle had indeed occurred — a thirty year long miracle — and that miracle was her faithfulness. Waiting without an apparent reward is a common theme in scripture. Abraham and Sarah waited to have children for the fulfillment of God’s promise, Joseph waited in prison in Egypt, and Job lamented how long he had to wait for God’s deliverance. Such faithfulness is its own reward. Secondly, her waiting hadn't been fruitless. She had been an example of faithfulness to others; in her caring and sharing she had helped keep the love of God flowing through her church. Instead of waiting for a gift, she might consider the possibility that through these 30 years, she herself has been the gift, the gift for others. That is the message of Advent. Keep alert, Jesus says. Wake up from your slumber, Paul warns. Stay faithful. Keep waiting but try not to imagine beforehand what you are waiting for. Try instead to expect the unexpected. The trouble with expecting the unexpected is, you may not even notice its arrival. Most people didn't expect a baby born in a manger to be the Messiah, even though they were all expecting him. The woman thought she had been waiting for naught all these thirty years, and never noticed the miracle of faithfulness. One of the Advent readings warns us to be alert because two women will be grinding the hand-mill and one will be taken, and the other left. (Matthew 24:41) One woman lived in the moment, and the other did not. One enjoyed the beauty of the day, and the other was always looking for something better. Advent is about waiting. It is an active waiting. Waiting patiently means paying attention to what is happening right before our eyes and seeing there the first rays of God’s glorious coming.
(Now I just need to flesh it out more -- easier said than done).
Rev Helen in Ontario
Nancy,
You're not pretty stupid... just a little cyber-challenged. It's on the startpage of the Web Theology discussion site (http://www.javacasa.com/wts)
Rick in Va
Rick-Va Thanks, for the help! I found it! Nancy-wi
Paideia in N. Ga. Mts: Thank you!!! Not just for reminding me of Tillich but for the ts eliot quote(that actually happened to me during prayer a couple weeks ago - it was a trust that stepped aside to reveal a more perfect - and frightful - trust). It's often when God "goes" that he becomes more perfectly revealed. I see a paradox: is this God's action or our perceptions of God? I vote that it's a combination of God's work and our discernment. In other words, is it God coming to us or are we going to God?
Some quick thoughts at 5:20, before I go pick up my daughters!!! Shalom.
Sally in GA (and a little homesick for the NGa mts)
Helen in Ontario- Nice start. I found it helpful because I was so torn this week I am doing three mini sermons one for Isaiah, Romans, Mathew. Mini bites of the Bible. Happy fleshing out! Nancy-Wi
Any chance that the "thief" in the second mini-parable is not Jesus coming for us...but rather a thief who would break in and steal our hope, our faithfulness, who would distract us from our Christian "duty" of living each day to the fullest as we await the Second Coming of Christ? For this kind of a thief, we must all be watchful....or else be like the folks of Noah's time who were all washed away in the midst of their everyday lives...., those who were not focussed on the task of living out the Christian duty assigned to us....
I just received a wonderful story about a woman who planted 50,000 daffodil bulbs in a mountainous area, and a young woman had to literally kidnap her mother away from her life and fear of driving in the fog to see this spectacular beauty.....
The tulip planter lived on the premises in a little house, and put this note on the door to answer the most often asked questions...
(1) 50,000 (2) one old woman, with two hands, two feet and very little brain (3) I started in 1956.
The point being....that when we are given our tasks as Christians and we faithfully attend to our spiritual assignment, our lives will result in something beautiful...for the Kingdom...and whenever Jesus comes, we will be "free" to go with Him....
Jude in Wash
I remember attending a "Left Behind" play... in Minot when we lived there. I went so I could "comment" from the pulpit about the stupidity of such a show.... sure enough... they "SCARED THE HELL" INTO the people who were there! Little kids were crying as we all watched in disbelief... SATAN had more "power" apparently than did GOD. The Actors/Actresses ANGELS protected heaven with drawn swords. I about puked! The images were those of good people... who stayed home instead of going to church... the child who went to church and her mother who didn't was "left behind". I'm sorry I guess I believe in a Universal Type of afterlife... MY God would not take some and leave others...
I went to court today with a colleague... a pastor... while we were there I saw a middle aged man going to the "judge"... he had been picked up for the 4th time for driving without a license. The judge said, we gave you one chance, two chances, three chances, and now a fourth chance... what you do from here on out is up to you... if you come back again, you're going to jail. It's up to you!"
I think God gives us chance after chance... remembering how Jesus says when asked how many times we should forgive our neighbors... his response... infinity... or 70 times 7!
pulpitt in ND
Pamela, Nancy, Sally, Amy, Eric, LCShelly... and others... you've got MY juices flowing.... I like the hard questions of your interpretations... sensible answers to what many in the pew have learned and like those adults that come to church... stop questioning... I think youth say it best... we need to be more responsible in our interpretation of scripture... thanks for the discussion... and the mental excercise you all do every week...
It's much appreciated! ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Keep up the good work! GREAT WORK! You make my sermons sound good! :?)
Anyone have any good stories about staying awake versus falling asleep?
I want to talk about how we have been in such a state of high alert since 9/11. But eventually people will get tired of waiting in extra lines, having their bags checked everytime they walk into a large building (I live in NYC). When nothing bad happens we let our guard down. We lose our sense of urgency. Comfort and safety make us fall asleep.
What does it take to stay fully alive and alert, even if we are not living in obvious danger? That is what we are being asked to do spiritually. But not just alert to danger, and spiritual sleepiness, but also alert to signs of God's presence among us.
DGinNYC
In the Noah story God makes a covenant with us to never bring such universal, unexpected devestation. How does this fare with this story? ...Seems to me that in this story Jesus is speaking enormous hope. We have choice in this story unlike the masses in the Noah story.
Jesus has come and come and come and is still coming and will continue to come...sometimes we might recognize the presence several times in a single day. Sometimes we may not notice for decades.
The " enexpected hour " is most often unexpected because of the presence of Christ in the most unexpected people. For me there is most often no exchange of " religious " language at these unexpected times with these unexpected people.
Kairos
"SATAN had more 'power' apparently than did GOD. The Actors/Actresses ANGELS protected heaven with drawn swords. I about puked! The images were those of good people... who stayed home instead of going to church... the child who went to church and her mother who didn't was "left behind". I'm sorry I guess I believe in a Universal Type of afterlife... MY God would not take some and leave others... "
There is Biblical support (yes, from the literalist perspective) for angels with drawn swords. And why that would make you puke is a mystery to me (perhaps an un-related intestinal problem?).
But more troubling for me than Angels with swords, is a mindset that ridicules Satan's power while then stating "MY God would not take some and leave others...".
Well Pulpitt in ND, can we go a little deeper here?
Let's look at the 9/11 attacks, still fresh in the minds of many although that freshness is on the wane.
Given your statements, it was neither Satan nor God that one can attribute the actions of the terrorists. What then, theologically, do we attribute it to? If God did not allow it, then His sovereignty comes into question. Assuming that the modern mind would dismiss Satanic involvement (and assuming this is at the root of your intestinal problems with Angels drawing swords and Satan having power), then how theologically does one account for innocents being killed? Your "MY God would not take some and leave others" rings so hollow and shallow to those directly victimized by 9/11. We can't dismiss today's gospel and it's reference to being left behind as easily as I see that dismissal taking place on these pages, both by Pulpitt in ND and by what Deke has already noted, a lack of folks tackling today's passage head on.
Is Systematic Theology a thing of the past for the modern preacher?
Rick in Va
Hey, gang! Here's a pretty good sermon about the Left Behind stuff, the so-called Rapture, Jesus' end-times comments, and so forth:
http://www.presbyterianwarren.com/left-bh.html
It's entitled "Left Behind ... The Books, The Movie, The Truth" (based on Mark 13:31-33, delivered 2/11/01) by the Rev. Dr. David E. Leininger, pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Warren, Pennsylvania.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Friends:
If you'd like to know more about Darby and the influence of his "dispensationalist" theories ... check out this essay:
http://posttribulation.net/darby1.html
Blessings, Eric in KS
If you go to the www.pcusa.org website and type in "Left Behind" as a search - there are several articles that are descriptive of the dispensationalist argument and the differences it has from the "Reformed" tradition's perspective. The lectionary texts from November 11 also got me thinking about this subject - so I'll add a little sermon brief from what I preached that day (not to jab on anyone's beliefs but to explain the traditional Presbyterian approach):
"...Trust me, this view of the end of the world (i.e. the "Left Behind" series)is tremendously exciting! We who live in this media-saturated world are enticed by stories of prophecies coming true. It makes for best-selling fiction, highly dramatic plot lines for movies, and it grotesquely satisfies our own worst nightmares about what is yet to come. You can really eat popcorn to this kind of stuff. It keeps you on the edge of your seat. But there are some significant problems with this scenario. Besides the fact that John Calvin, diplomat that he was, called this theological reasoning “too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation,” (Bohler, article 1) the most devastating problem from the Presbyterian point of view is that it fails to proclaim a final victory in the cross from the very first. There seem to be stages of salvation. First, for the saints who are raptured away, second for the converted Jews and believers in the in between time, and then final victory only happens after the Anti-Christ is defeated after a seven-year struggle on earth.
Wait one minute! Our theological undergirding tells us that Christ’s work on the cross is COMPLETE for salvation. We are on the one-step program, not the three or four-step program.
Presbyterianism may not be exciting in a big-screen kind of way, but our focus takes us on a more hopeful journey about the outcome of the world. For example, a Presbyterian eschatology takes what happens to be a biblical long-range view of salvation. The more important question isn’t the selfish, “What happens to ME when I die?”; it’s, “What has God already done for the whole world?” “For God so loved the WORLD, that God gave us God’s only child so that we might have life in him.” (John 3:16) To me, that’s honestly compelling; that has some real meat on it. God’s not picking and choosing God’s favorites on a whim or on a particular test of our belief system. God seeks and saves the whole world through this one amazing act of love and grace. Now there’s something to be talked about!
Certainly, we do speculate about the time beyond time, the time we cannot explain or know. In saying we don’t have all the details and we can’t say for sure – we’re not copping out. We’re saying that there are some things we frail human beings may not be capable of knowing in this life. God, the wise One, might have some wisdom that even our greatest sages might be totally unaware of. Rather than try to force obscure texts into a prophetic outcome, we believe in living the texts of scripture that are made quite plain. “Love one another.” “Serve one another.” “Go, therefore, and make disciples, baptizing and teaching in the name of Christ.”
Hope this helps someone! I'm continuing to preach about the "Second Coming" through Advent and I am offering some evening time to talk about these things. People are certainly hungry to discuss their hopes and fears in this world, but I believe that the only certainty the church can offer comes through God's grace alone.
Peace & Watchful Waiting - Pastor Kerra in PA
Eric,
I liked Rev. Dr. David E. Leininger's sermon... he preaches a perspective that I've 'grown' into. You might be surprised to know that John Piper has similar views.
Would love to know what you believe (and I presume preach) about Christ's return.
Rick in Va
Hi Rick,
Perhaps I am repeating an earlier offering on the discussion site, but I wonder why 9/11 has to be attributed to either God or Satan. I'm not sure it can be reduced to such a simple dichotomy when human nature and free will are brought into the equation.
I think we're back to a question of theodicy that we won't likely resolve today (and if we do, it'll make CNN for sure!). Personally, I resonate with Kushnier's thinking that the reality of our world is that evil exists, this cannot be denied. That means that God is either all-loving or all-powerful, but not both. I have to go with all-loving........which means that there are times when God is not all-powerful. Is this somehow enmeshed in the gift of our free will? Certainly.
This isn't the focus of my sermon this week, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. As for the "left behind" aspect, I liked the earlier comment about one of the women living in the moment, and one not.
Later, SueCan
My belief in prevenient grace (now THAT's a Methodist term!) tells me that God is ALWAYS there; we're just not aware of that fact until we come under conviction of our sin. Our limited understanding of God and God's actions go away bit by bit because of his presence in our lives and our further seeking God, going on to perfection. Thus, the revelation is in God's continuing to call us (Wesley said, "woo") throughout our lives. The hope, or dare I say expectation of Advent is that our omnipresent God will be incarnate and living in our lives anew and remind us of the mystery of faith: Christ has come, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Whether or not we agree on how or why it's going to happen, the Incarnation is not yet perfectly manifest on earth. At least, I don't see wolves and lambs eating together yet.
God comes to us in the Incarnation and unveils our dark ignorance.
Sally in GA
Oops! That should be
Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again!!!! Sheesh! Sorry, y'all.
Sally in GA
this summer I went to visit an uncle who has been very sick for the last three years. they said that he could not have a kidney transplant because he was not a good canidate and so he has been on diaylisis (spelled wrong. Anyway I have always been close to all of my uncles. One day we sat in the kitchen talking, my aunt was at the Drs. and my husband was outside. My uncle asked me how my son was doing and I told him how well he was doing. My uncle looked at me and told me how proud he was of both my son and myself. He then proceded to tell me how proud he was of his own wife and sons. I asked him if he had told them and he kind of smiled and said no, he did not want to spoil them. Three weeks later we buried him. In fact it was 9/12, he died of a heart problem that he supposedly did not have. He was prepared the rest of us were not. We never know when it will happen and I think that Jesus is telling us we need not only to set our houses in order, but to keep them that way. Don't just clean the house for company for the holidays, keep them in order for all the time. MR in NY
SueCan,
Not familiar with Kushnier. And strongly disagree with him/her and the notion that all-loving and all-powerful are mutually exclusive character traits of God, especially the God revealed in Scripture.
I think of the quote (can't remember who said it, sorry) that went along the lines of defining Christ's meekness not as one who is meek as a mouse or one who engages in meek conformity but as quiet, controlled strength. Power isn't defined exclusively as to it's use but as to the powerful's abilities and capabilities. I find it just as problematic (maybe even more so) to define a Creator who is not all-powerful as to define Him as not all-loving.
Im reminded of Stuart McCallister's response to Bertrand Russell's oft quoted rational for not believing in God (Russell decried the lack of evidence). McCallister writes:
"It seems that the fingerprints of God are all over his handiwork. When I look at creation, the jagged peaks and the meandering streams, I cannot help but see evidence of the majesty of God. When I experience the intimacy of love, I cannot help but see evidence of the glory of God. So, Bertrand Russell’s position is not so much a position due to a lack of evidence, but his lack of development of the capacity to recognize the evidence as such."
I would gently suggest, that our incapacity to see an all-loving or an all-powerful God because of the existence of evil, has less to do with God's power and God's love (or specifically His sovereignty), revealed in nature and (we seem to forget) in Scripture, and much much more to do with our finite minds, our not being God, our "inability to recognize the evidence as such."
I have, by the way, been reminded often by many of you, how safe this site is supposed to be, and how priests, pastors, preachers and teachers, desperate (or not so desperate) all, should be able to write or say just about anything as they flesh out their messages.
But let me remind us all, allow me to be the wet blanket of accountability, allow me to gently and probably less than humbly, bring to rememberance and consideration, that deciding that God is not all powerful or less than Sovereign, a notion that is not original by any stretch of the imagination, should be done so in a manner that suggests that one's ducks are all lined up, that one has been prayerful, submissive to the Word of God, and prepared to be accountable for preaching such nonsense...er... such a message.
Do it if you must... do it with fear and trembling.
Rick in Va
I find it interesting that many comments here mention the left behind series and its impact on our homeletics. I read the book and the poor attempt at a movie and decided to do some independent research. It is told to the character Buck that the disappearance happens as according to 1 Thes. 13-18, have you read it? The passage speaks of the coming of the Lord and the dead shall rise first, the those who are left will be join him in the clouds. It does not mention tribulation, rapture or destruction - it should be more seen as God's reclaiming of creation.
Left Behind presents creation as evil, the earth and its inhabitance aren't "good", so their left behind. Yet creation is good, at least that is what my scripture says in Genesis and as in the flood story, God was reclaiming what was good and those left were the chosen. Seems to me to be left behind might not just be the bad place to be.
For me this passage is speaking of the second advent that we await in rememberance of the first advent. And the hope we have is that through the second advent God will be reclaiming all of creation and as the ancient prophets (Isaiah and Jermiah) spoke of justice and righteous will reign in God's kingdom and creation.
Just a few thoughts
DM in OK
Rick in VA: You asked, "Would love to know what you believe (and I presume preach) about Christ's return."
Presumably you are familiar with these thoroughly Biblical, thoroughly traditional, and thoroughly ecumenical words:
"He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end." (The Nicene Creed)
As to the timing and the mechanics, I profess ignorance; those, I believe and preach, are in God's hands.
As Sue has said, quoting the BCP, "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again." In the meantime, let's get on with the business of feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, visiting the prisoners, caring for the sick, clothing the naked, teaching all nations, and baptizing all people in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Eric...
Very familiar. Amen and Amen...
Although I must say that one could certainly expound, in great detail I believe, on those very familiar quotes. Especially the notion that He will judge the living and the dead... a notion that hints at Good news for some, Bad news for others. (Some taken, some left perhaps).
May we preach the Good News found only in Christ, may we do so in the shadow of the very Bad News that makes the Good News so good, and may we submit to God the Father, His Son our Savior and His Holy Spirit as we do so.
Again, I say, amen!
Rick in Va
Some good stuff there...
I do seem to be more mellow back then...
Rick in Va
Not exactly tied to this week's Gospel lesson, but certainly tied to Eric's "getting on" with the business of the Church as we await the Lord's return.
Check it out.
Rick in Va
Hey Rick,
Have you happened to notice how argumentative you are? I mean, most people on this site "SHARE" without condemming others... My faith is tried and true... for me... I don't claim to speak for others... apparently yours is dependent on how many people you can allienate...
People were given "free will" from God... what happened on 9/11 just proves that we are free to do very bad things to God's people... it is a choice... I choose NOT to do some things... and I choose to do others... God blessed me with a mind to think... to question, to ponder and believe in a power greater than... well, greater than SATAN... Just for the record, "When I was ordained there was no "swearing allegiance to Satan"...
pulpitt in ND
Hey Rick in VA...
Blessings, grins and grace,
pulpitt in ND
I am preaching, "Getting Ready for Christmas", using the analogy of how we get ready for Christmas in material ways and how we should also get ready for Christmas spiritually. Christmas being the celebration of the birth of CHRIST and in conjunction with Advent the second coming of CHRIST as well. I am afraid theologians tend to tell us the things we must do i.e. be ready for the coming of CHRIST....but fail to tell us how to be ready. Anyone have 3 basic points to support how?
Initial thoughts: 1)consecrate 2)repent 3)be a light
Pastor in OK
Well it seems that this is a particularly long disucussion this week. To totally throw a monkey wrench into the discussion..... is anyone besides me aghast at the McCarthyan "state" of affairs unfolding??? This is truly scary to me. Don't question the president, his policies, or how he is going about them... In this discussion of end time scenarios, I see very disturbing signs on the horizon... our horizon... and the Church is complacent. Chrisitianity equals patriotism equals Christianity. I'm tired of it and I'm scared of it. But more than anything I'm scared by our silence and apparant lack of critical thinking.
Pamela
I am reminded by the old Bill Cosby routine about Noah. Once you get past the funny part about Noah and the Lord having this improbable conversation - "Who is this REALLY?" and Noah gets down to building the Ark - the people around him are offended - he's blocking their driveway. I wonder how many people are too busy getting ready to go to work to get ready for the Coming of God. RevRick in So. Ga.
I've seen and read a few people on this site elsewhere allegorizing the thief, trying to make it either God or Jesus. I think the thief is just a thief. Jesus' point is that if we knew when a thief was coming, we'd be ready. But we don't know when the thief is coming (because they usually don't let us know we're on their schedule), and we don't know when the 2nd coming is coming, so we should always be ready. Along that line, if Jesus doesn't know when the 2nd coming is (as he says in v 36), how can Tim LaHaye? -- Mike in Maryland
RE: Son of Man
I was told (at Drew) that Son of Man was a political term used by the Jews to mean "Meshuah will come on a white horse and save the people poltically as well as spiritually".
Jesus rarely uses that term, but those who wrote the gospels did as they were people of their time.
rokinrev-Albany NY
How does it change our conception of Advent if we think of it as waiting "on" God instead of waiting "for" God? These are contrasting images for me. One says we will wait like a waiter/waitress, ready to serve God by waiting on others(loving them). The other says we will sit down at the counter and wait for God to come to us. Advent is proactive waiting, not passive expectation. What do you think?
Robin in OH
Thank you Pastor Kerra in PA for your post of 11/30 about Presbyterianism and "Left Behind." It was helpful. This text goes well with the Romans text on waking up and being ready. DGinNYC
Someone wrote: "Advent means waiting." I looked it up in the dictionary to be sure, but "Advent" means "appearance, or coming."
Sally in GA
rokinrev,
What (or where) is Drew? I'm hoping there's more substantiation for what you were told by whomever there.
My New Testament NIV quotes the phrase "Son of Man" 86 times in 82 verses, the vast majority (well over 60) being red-lettered direct quotes (attributable to Christ Himself).
To say that Jesus rarely used the term is to dismiss or ignore gobs of the Gospels.
Have the folks at Drew take another look. Hold them accountable. Seems like weak scholarship to me.
Blessings to us all as we go deeper.
Rick in Va
Jude in Wash: Go to the Text This Week site and follow the links at Matthew 24 site to the Five Gospel Parallels. There is a parallel in the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas which takes this same track that you're speculating on concerning the "thief." Happy hunting! Ken in WV
When my son, Asa, was about four years old (he's now 18), he was a very verbal child, but sometimes got just a little confused by the English language. One day, while watching soap bubbles pop and vanish, he proclaimed "They dis-ed-appear, Mommy!" You see, he knew that the past tense usually had an "ed" on it, he just hadn't figured out all the rules, so he didn't know where to put it. To this day, we use the word dis-ed-appear instead of disappeared as a gentle jibe at Asa and a happy memory of our little one who's not so small any more.
There is, however, a life lesson to this story, and it's one that fits well with part of our gospel reading today. So often in life, we don't know all the rules, we don't understand the whole plan, and we jump to the wrong conclusions. Hearing Jesus talk about those who dis-ed-appear while going about their daily work can lead us to lengthy discussions about "the rapture," or it can lead us into greater attempts at living into the kingdom. Since we don't know all of what the plan is, it's probably best to focus on what we do know. There will come a time when we will be judged according to our actions. Jesus taught us well about how we were to live. Seems like we ought to be trying to live up to that. If we do, we just might be among those who dis-ed-appear instead of those left behind.
Confession: I've contributed without reading anything you've all been writing. Now I'll see what the discussion's been about.
Pam in San Bernardino
Dear Jude:
Living in San Bernardino, I've had the opportunity to see the results of the Daffodil lady's work. It is incredible. Unfortunately, a fire swept through her property last year (or year before) leaving nothing growing. I've heard several people talking about the loss and I haven't heard anything about replanting. Anyone know if daffodils just keep coming back? Will fire kill them permanently?
Not terribly relevant. Just pondering.
Pam in San Bernardino
Pam, depends on the severity of the fire. Probably the fire only destroyed the greenery above ground. Since daffodils come up from bulbs, they most likely will be back next year. Remember Mt. St. Helen's volcanic eruption, that blew down trees for miles and left a barren dust covered moonscape? The Spring brought up delicate little crocus', pushing up through the ash, delicate as butterfly wings. Life Magazine had the cover photo, I think. The Creator's creation is pretty durable. Ain't God great?! tom in TN(USA)
Deke,
I just read your message for the first time... don't know how I overlooked it... I appreciate your input!
Thanx,
pulpitt in ND
re: Son of Man, Drew....& Rockinrev
I respect the scholarship at Drew and appreciate your reminder in regard to spiritual and political implications of the title.
There's that old saying that we can miss the forest by looking at the trees. This text can be very simple when we look at the " forest " of the text...which can speak very clearly to us about being proactively waiting ( as another contributor pointed-out )...breaking-down barriers between one another rather than re-cementing the naturally cracked mortar which is cracking because the walls have been-up long enough.
If a " 2nd Coming " is by someone who fleshes-out both the political and the spiritual nature of our Creator, all of us who split doctinal hairs will be caught off-guard. In our global world, now, I can't imagine an incarcation in any other form.
This site would be a reasonable place to expect tolerance.
Kairos
It's late -- I know that, but I thought I'd take another look to see what others have said these past few days.
Eric in KS, I'd love to have the opportunity to share with you about family members with GBM -- my older brother (age 56) was diagnosed a year ago this past July with a GBM and given 6 months to three years to live. He died four and a half months later. Ergo, I too am painfully familiar with the trauma that affects the family --
If you want to (or would be willing to) dialogue about this, please contact me at Dale_Durnell@email.msn.com
Grace and peace
Dale in OK
I know that i will not be the only one to see this beautiful typo.... which Eric of Kansas wrote on the atonement. Didn't know that one of the theological positions was the "running away of God"...actually it preaches!...thanks Eric
<<"Luke does not defend any particular theory of the atonement. The traditional theories generally fall into one of the following categories: sacrifice, ransom, or moral influence. Luke never calls Jesus 'the Lam of God who takes away the sin of the world' (John 1:29 NRSV); cf. John 1:36; Acts 8:32).>>
don hoff, elmira, ny
Pulpit- You ask if Rick knows how argumentative he is..
We have seen for 4 or 5 years how he gets his "kicks" out of being so. We all have had to endure this while we are trying to share constructively... the disruptions of self-centered comments and negativity are best for the Discussion side of this site. To respond directly only seems to encourage his behavior, so skip over those negative postings.... or suffer more years of this abuse.
don hoff
Previous:
Keep awake ....
How to live with expectation instead of fear? How to live toward the future which is now? What is it that I am getting ready for? The myth of the Son of Man coming is difficult for us to embrace! The only thing that is sure is taxes. How do we reenter the salvific story and embrace the coming of the Son of Man into our lives? As you can see this preacher needs help, he's not desperate, but on the verge of being in trouble!
Tom in GA
Gee, Tom in GA. I am excitedly living in expectation that that next soul I help lead to faith in Jesus might be the last one to squeek in just before the door is slammed shut. If you consider Jesus coming a myth, I'm afraid you might NOT have any reason to live in expectation. Sorry. A pastor told me once there are two kinds of preachers. Ones who have to find something to say and those excited ones who have so much to say you can't keep them quiet. revup
HW Please contact me. You know how. I need to talk with you
Pasthersyl
In response to smething which Tom from Ga said.... <<What is it that I am getting ready for? The myth of the Son of Man coming is difficult for us to embrace! The only thing that is sure is taxes. How do we reenter the salvific story and embrace the coming of the Son of Man into our lives? >>
Tom I'm glad you began there... don't know why coming of the Son of Man is considered a myth...... actually if it is a myth and only a myth it should very easy to accept....... I believe that the biblical teaching on the coming of the Son of Man is complex.... I'lltake time to review that this week... I am of the mind that the teaching that Christ comes again... and again has a power which must not be ignored..... Advent, if it does more than behave like a "little pre-Christmas" have to take the coming of Christ seriously.... It makes no sense to me without it... maybe you'll want to clarify what you mean by "myth"... thanks tom...
Don Hoff (now a former dps DS) Elmira, NY As far as taxes being certain.... that seesm to be a poor folk saying .... but I know of plenty of rich folk who don't believe that saying.... and have found many ways to avoid paying taxes...
Tom in GA wrote: "How to live with expectation instead of fear? How to live toward the future which is now? What is it that I am getting ready for?"
Let me add something from my files from a few years ago, an answer to the question, "Who is the Christ you are waiting for?"
"When I think about that question, I realize that my answer is shaped by my own appreciation for the Christ I have already met. I am convinced my image of the Christ I am waiting for is influenced by what I am willing to let God show me now. When Christ comes in glory, I imagine I will see the many faces of those in whom I have seen the Christ already. For we, "who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)
Am I waiting for this glory which is yet to be revealed? Most certainly yes. But perhaps more importantly, I realize I must allow my eyes to be opened now. I must allow myself to see the Christ already revealed through the people who invite me into their lives. It is through such encounters that I will learn to recognize the Christ when he comes again in glory. And as I live out my baptismal covenant I also realize I must allow others to see the Christ revealed through me."
How to live with expectation instead of fear? It is something we practice/live each day--expecting to see the Christ in others rather than expecting fear from our encounter with them. It seems to me this way of living with present expectation rather than fear is what prepares us and allows us to live toward the future that is now (that wonderful paradox of the already and the not yet).
LC in NY
I appreciate very much the various responses. I am very surprised that "myth" remains a nasty word for some. Myth is simply larger than fact - it point to archtypical stories which are beyond history yet still true. If I offended, mea culpa. I am sure all of you are family with Saint Bernard's Three Comings: His First Coming in the birth of the Christ Child; His Second Coming in the Sacraments and moments of grace in the lives of others (when did we see you hungry, naked, sick, in prison?); and the Third Coming at the end of time. Therefore to Keep Awake is being aware in whose time we live.
tom in ga
Interesting that readiness, in this passage, consists solely in being awake, aware - like if your Eudora file is not on, you won't hear the mail beep - not in anything else you do. What does that mean? kbc in sc
Tom in GA - where would I find that St. Bernard ref? kbc in sc (kculp@awod.com)
If you have not already used it, this might be a good time for the Classic "Martin the Cobbler story." I started thinking about our vacation last year. We came home and saw that the sound system was on. My husband was miffed, sure I had left it on for the two weeks we were away. Then I began to notice things out of place. "Foreign" garbage in the trash. A pack of cigarettes. Then, like Goldilocks, I saw that "someone had been sleeping in my bed." I went out to the garage where my car had been. The garage was empty. Someone had obviously been living in our house while we were gone -- found the keys to my car and took it. (later found the car had been wrecked and left in a ditch.) Boy, if I had known the Unexpected Guest was coming, I would sure would have stayed home...or at least had someone watching my house. I don't think the story means that God is a thief, but merely that the coming of the Kingdom and the presence of Christ is quiet, sometimes hidden and unannounced. It can be missed. therefore, we are to live ready, awake, eyes open to the events and signs of his coming. How exciting...the Lord is not just coming sometime at the "END" of things, but is coming to us all the time. I think that is tremendously exciting. Where will we see him? Wait. Watch. Be Ready. RevKK
Has anyone noticed that the Jews waited in expectation for the Messiah to come in glory?
He came in a barn.
As we prepare for Advent, does our waiting in expectation for Christ's return in glory parallel that of the Jews?
Are we in danger of missing the second coming? Is it possible that the Messiah will be born a second time -- on the streets of Calcutta, or in the hills of Appalachia?
Don, I look forward to your research on the Son of Man. I really appreciate using all of you -- especially since my time is so limited. We will be travelling to TN Wednesday night, returning to Illinois on Friday. Spending Thanksgiving with my 84 year old father and his wife. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!
RevJan
So, before I read all these wise things you all are writing, I was wondering how the heck I was going to connect Advent with this troubling Eschatological passage. During the last several weeks the lectionary has taken us to the Eschaton and the Second Coming and now there is more. Is there no rest for the weary? Anyway, I just wondering if I got this straight: During Advent we are waiting for the Christ child to come at Christmas but we are also reminded of the ever present wait of the Second Coming during the End Times and that is how this passage connects with Advent? Am I right? I guess, according to Tom, we are also waiting for the next time we take communion and the next moment of grace? Is this right? Tom will you please post for all were we can get this St. Barnard ref? Thanks alot.
Kelly in Alberta
Lots of good, thought-provoking comments this week.
I was thinking of how the question "Who is the Christ you are waiting for?" might be related to Jesus' teaching / admonition / warning / statement of fact that those who pray on the street corners "in order to be seen.... have their reward."
There are those who will be welcoming a certain kind of Christ - a sweet, sentimental story that makes no great demands on their lives -- this Christmas, and they will "have their reward"... that is, they'll get what they were looking for.
Others will welcome the Christ whose birthday stimulates the economy... and they'll likely get what they're looking for.
Kevin in OK
Tom,
The problem which I have with the word myth is in my experience it used by people who don't literally believe in what the Bible says. The incarnation, resurrection, atonement, and 2nd coming are all seen as powerful myths, but not to be literally believed as true. I believe this us of myth denies the truth of the Christian faith. You can not take the myths out of a faith which proclaims them to be literally true. Jesus will return a second time. This is a truth claim, not a myth.
In Christ, Dale Proulx
(1) What are the 'myths, metaphors, and paradigms' out of which one creates and/or discovers 'meaning'? As certain as visions, dreams, and intuitive faith are grounded in the bridge connecting us with a greater flow of consciousness than our limited literalist perceptions, so the fuction of 'allegory' is inescable in every persons existence. Even the 'literalism' which emerges out of the now old modern worldview is founded upon 'symbolic' meaning rooted in the insecurity of Decates, and the physics following Newton. When the soft sciences, such as history, uses physics as a model or 'allegory', or symbolically, (whether conscious of it or not), then 'literalism' itself becomes grounded in a 'faith sysem', although be it a rather modern secular faith system. (2). I propose this rather recent secular faith system does not approach the first century Church's understanding of how "allegory" is essential in the sacres stories of faith, orally spoken and written out of a faith community to a faith community. The kind of literalism that treats the Bible as if it is a modern 'history' book describing events from an 'impersonal objective perspective' is only left with the absence of God in a chronos quantitative time and would never understand the kairos/God-time making divine intervention into our personal/history/life story.(3). Tom has implicitly expressed a faith that is both traditional and futuristic, as well as others who have embraced the 'anticipatory mode' of hope to which we are called as we discover the 'presence' of God, the 'stranger' or the 'Hound of Heaven" whose advent comes seeking us out. (4). There are various stages of faith development and these stages do not have to be placed in either/or dichotomies. Nevertheless, the contemporary literalism that claims to be the only right view of the Bible, and that claims falsely to be 'conservative', and that does not know it is based upon a modern secular "myth' called "physics/history/modern science", and that attacks the word "myth" because it thinks "myth" is something false and not real, falls far short of a vital faith rooted in Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. PaideiaSCO in the swamps and delta of LA
Tom in GA mentioned the three comings of Christ. A humorous story comes to mind. As a seminary student at Fuller (in Pasadena, CA), I once worshipped at the Lake Avenue Congregational Church, which had been founded and built almost to the status of mega-church by former pastor Raymond C. Ortland. The Sunday I visited, Ortland happened to be the guest preacher. His theme was basically the same: "The Three Appearances of Jesus." His opening illustration was of sending in his scriptures and sermon title to the church office. When he arrived at the church Sunday morning, there it was on the sign board: "The Three Appearances--Dr. Raymond C. Ortland--8:00, 9:30, and 11:00."
I got a kick out of it!
Matt in WA
Kevin - thank you for your thoughts on "Who is the Christ for whom you wait?"
It makes me wonder how many actually wait for Christ. Any at all? How hard it is to wait, keeping vigil, for one who will show up -- how? Like last time? Or as: a poor soul with aids? A baby in Afghanistan? A rock star? Perhaps a nice white Episcopalian singing "immortal, invisible"? Or not.
HW - waiting in HI
My apologies to those who desire the source of Saint Bernard's Three Advents. I am not able to find the source. I took down the information a long time ago and the ideas continue to speak to me. I will keep looking, but as of Monday evening I have had no luck.
Tom in GA
I am reminded of 2 resources... one is Involing Children in Sunday Worship--- "Forbid Them Not" Year A, by Carolyn Brown.... it gets down to basic ways of explaining the theme of the text and how to find other ways of proclaiming the message.... I've used things like this for years.... and the adults find it instructional ...remembering the KISS formula.
Second.. ina little book by Anthony De Mello, "The Way to Love" this were written in 1992, just before his death..... Tony was a Jesuit.... most of you I assume have read his other books..... tremendous stories and parables... from the Eastern tradition...India. Tony came to Syracuse quite often for teaching sessions.... his books are presently being banned by the Vatican Office under Cardnial Ratzinger.... so i figure that it MUST be worth reading.. Tony's section on "The Ready" deals with this text. i'll have to review that and get back to you.
Just a thought that the Lord is coming has the tendency to seem like a warning, and we become fearful.... we can also see this as a promise.... depends if you're hiding under the bed or standing on tip-toe for someone to come through the door. Love the reference of our friend about coming home to a invaded house.... o my that gives a picture of being prepared and somethings one can't be prepared for.
Thanks for the thoughts.. Don Hoff, elmira, NY
Thanks Don H. in Elmira (I taught for years in Syracuse; happy to be back in California..I guess my preparation for preaching takes something from my years of teaching; don't know if that's good or bad...) But the tip about Anthony deMello was helpful. And for all of you troubled about the escaton and connecting it to Advent... check out Robert Waznaks' book of sermons "Like Fresh Bread." His Advent l sermon does this especially well. (it is published by Paulist Press, l993). He says that as "we begin our first Sunday of Advent, not just as a time to commemorate Christ's first coming at Christmasx but as a special time to remember that he is coming again. God is coming again to save all people...we don't know when it will happen, but that it will happen. This is the meaning of Advent, a deep trust that despite our pre Christmas rush and anxieties, despite the gloomy prospects of war in the Middle East (he wrote this originally in l99l,2)!! despite all our fears and lost hopes, God is coming to save all people." There is much more....good preaching brothers and sisters. In spite of (perhaps because) of some of the rancor in some of our exchanges, I cherish this cyberfellowship very much. Thanks to all of you. You are a real help...happy advent. gail in berkeley.
I'm encouraged by those who were 'put off' by the use of the word myth. There are many in my own denomination, who arrogantly call for a new 'reformation', that have myth-ologized much of the creeds, the baptismal covenant, and much of Scripture.
I'm one who believes that Christ's next appearance will not be as humble as His first and so we won't have to worry about 'missing' it. It seems that most of the Son of Man passages in Scripture are references to Christ's coming for the elect and His coming to judge (as in this week's text). The next largest group of Son of Man passages deal with his suffering, death, and resurrection. There are also many Son of Man passages that deal with Jesus' earthly ministry and are spread throughout the Gospels.
If the Scriptures are correct, and I believe them to be so, our expectation and waiting must be active. By that I mean that as much as Noah called animals into the ark to save them from God's pending judgment, we are to call our families, friends, and neighbors to the ark of the New Covenant, to save them from the final judgment. It's an indirect call to evangelize (or am I reaching?).
I enjoyed the reference to the baptismal covenant by LC in NY. I think it ought to be required that each of us review the Baptismal Rite frequently for it beautifully reminds us of our call, and ought to remind us each of our commitment to Christ and our duty as believers.
I would also gently disagree with the assertion that "Nevertheless, the contemporary literalism that claims to be the only right view of the Bible, and that claims falsely to be 'conservative', and that does not know it is based upon a modern secular "myth' called "physics/history/modern science", and that attacks the word "myth" because it thinks "myth" is something false and not real, falls far short of a vital faith rooted in Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience."
I think that a faith rooted in God's Word as written, setting aside metaphors, symbolisms, and figures of speech which one can debate ad nauseum, is indeed a faith that is alive, Biblical and effective, especially as it defends the faith from the mythologizers (my word) who continuously attack the Scriptures and do so from a perspective of Reason/Science/Secular self-centeredness. They are out there, they are becoming more numerous, and they are leading people astray.
This week's text calls us to live in a state of expectancy, whose capitol is Hope (and I don't mean Arkansas) and which ought to be motivating us to spread the Good News for "the kingdom of God is at hand." Our waiting ought to be much like the gardener who waits expectantly for fruit but does so by weeding, fertilizing and caring for his crop-to-be. The Rev'd Terry Fullam blessed me once when he said (and I paraphrase for I don't remember the quote exactly): "The fruit of the Spirit grows best in the garden of obedience."
Let's obey His Word.
Rick in Va
gail in berkeley,
Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you.
Kelly in Alberta
Thanks to the one reminding us of the primary meaning of Advent as looking toward the 2nd coming (or 3rd appearance, whatever). It is so easy just to skip this part and go over to singing Xmas carols. Is this the reason why there are so few Advent hymns?
The Advent of Christ. Whether accompanied by literal fanfares or metaphorical ones (acc. to one of the previous verses--31)--the impact of Christ's coming will apparently be felt by all (one will be taken, the other one left). Someone raised the question, is keeping awake all that it takes. Hmm . . . sounds like a tall order to me. I would likely have fallen asleep with the disciples in Gethsemany (I can't really blame my parishioners for "resting their eyes" or "meditating" during my sermon).
One question though (perhaps to our Greek experts): does keeping awake imply preparation of some sort? (Or is preparation the exclusive message of Lent?) It's certainly implied in the text by the reference to Noah's time--Noah prepared by building the ark. (It's also indicated by the expression "you must be ready"). And if so, what does preparation look like? -- CR in DC
I struggle with the idea of a Second Coming of the Son of Man where all people will be saved at the same time.
For that to happen, people would have to be denied their free will - and if God didn't do that with the first coming of Jesus, why would He do it in the future?
If God is going to do something which no-one can resist, what more can He do than sending his son to die on the cross? If that's not enough to convince people, what will?
I like the idea of having to "allow my eyes to be opened now. I must allow myself to see the Christ already revealed through the people who invite me into their lives. It is through such encounters that I will learn to recognize the Christ.."
I feel that God is coming again and again to each of us - and that we choose continually whether to respond, and how. Will the Second coming for each of us be when we meet God - on death - which for most of us will come at an unexpected hour?
Are we missing opportunities to respond to God by waiting for a second coming when all will worship God?
Mary in Australia
Santa is a myth. Christ is real. Does the Rapture come to mind for anyone other than myself? Has anyone read The Third Millennium by Paul Meier and Robert Wise? What do you think?
The following is the text of St. Bernard’s “Three Comings” (Sermon 5 on Advent, 1-3). I found it on pages 74-75 in the book, From the Fathers to the Churches: Daily Spiritual Readings, Brother Kenneth CGA, ed. (Collins Liturgical Publications, London, 1985).
THE WORD OF GOD WILL COME WITHIN US
We have come to know a threefold coming of the Lord. The third coming takes place between the other two. They are clearly manifest but the third is not. In the first coming the Lord was seen on earth and lived among men in the days when, as he himself bears witness, they saw him and hated him. In his last coming ‘all flesh shall see the salvation of our God’, and ‘they shall look on him whom they have pierced.’ The other coming is hidden. In it, only the chosen see him within themselves and their souls are saved. In brief, his first coming was in the flesh and in weakness, this intermediary coming is in the spirit and in power, the last coming will be in glory and majesty.
This intermediary coming is like a road leading from the first to the last coming. In the first coming Christ was our redemption, in the last he will appear as our life, in this intermediary coming he is our rest and consolation.
Do not imagine that what we are saying about the intermediary coming is simply our own fabrication. Listen to Christ himself., ‘If a man loves me he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him.’ I have read elsewhere, ‘The man who fears the Lord will do good,’ but it is my opinion that more was said of the one who loves, namely that he will keep the words. Where, then, are they to be kept? Without any doubt they are to be kept in the heart, as the prophet says, ‘I have kept your words in my heart, lest I sin against you.’
Keep the word of God in that way for ‘blessed are they who keep it’. Let it pierce deep into your inmost soul and penetrate your feelings and actions. Eat well and your soul will delight and grow. Do not forget to eat your bread or your heart will wither, but let your soul feast richly.
If you keep the word of God in this way without a doubt you will be kept by it. The Son with the Father will come to you. The great prophet who will renew Jerusalem will come and he will make everything new. The effect of this coming will be that just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. Just as the old Adam was poured out throughout the whole man and filled him completely, so now let Christ take possession of the whole man, for he created the whole man, he redeemed the whole man and he will glorify the whole man.
LC in NY
Rick in Va "This week's text calls us to live in a state of expectancy, whose capitol is Hope."
Wow! That is really good.
This scripture can seem very frightening to someone who does not know Christ. “One will be taken, one will be left.” “He will come like a thief in the night.” Without some kind of relationship with the thief who comes, it is a very disconcerting idea.
RevKK – thanks for the story of your thief in the night. It is very poignant.
What a difference our feeling would be, if we came home from vacation to find a note from our long lost brother, reading “Sorry, I missed you. I was in town for just a few days. I’m leaving the country and won’t return.”
The relationship (or lack of relationship) with the unexpected guest makes a tremendous difference, doesn’t it.
pastorchris in TX
Happy Thanksgiving Week (and thank you, dps, for posting the "Posting Guidelines": timely offering of tools to seek and serve Christ in each other, even in disagreement!!) Re: the myth/truth discussion, here is a definition from the Seminary of the South's Education For Ministry (EFM) first year text: "It is a modern idea that myths are nothing but childish stories. They are rather the deepest expressions of truth that a culture or a people can speak." I vowed at my ordination that I "do believe the Holy Scriptures to contain all things necessary to salvation" -- and I include in "those things" the myths which lead us, as Christians to the deepest truth of a God who loved us enough to create us, redeem us and continues to sustain us. It is possible to take Holy Scripture too seriously to take it literally.
Advent is the season we wait in expectation, but not in anxiety. The difference, I was told once, between waiting on a street corner, hoping the bus will come, and waiting in a theatre for the overture to begin and the curtain to rise. Advent is the overture to the rest of the Christian story -- as we hear the themes of salvation and redemption retold and woven together. And it's the power of the myth that transcends the details of the story. Blessings, Susan in SanPedro
It's not that I don't believe that the Spirit, the very presence of Christ coming, doesn't move through our religious services, it's just that I so seldom see this happen. Instead, most of the liturgical practice in which I engage is based on the mechanizations of a thousand times before, the repetition of the ecclesial chant, which though it reminds me of connection with the body and history of faith, and though it reminds me of the myth which is not just a truth but the truth, and thus has meaning in who I am and who I claim to be; nevertheless, this liturgical practice rarely resembles the realm of Spirit.
The church was not elaborate, not ornate, just a rather plain and drab structure which suited the purpose of meeting. Windows broke the monotony of the white-washed walls, windows which opened out into the broken-down community, a community which was once vibrant, but now bore the ghost of the mill closed long ago. No, different than a thousand other ghosts in a thousand other broken down mill-towns.
Where there would be a cross in most churches, there hanging on the wall behind the alter, was a tapestry with a picture of the Christ with several lambs. Like the faded houses which lay beyond the walls of the sanctuary, it too was faded and refused to give up the specific details of a portrait which was once glorious and distinct. Instead of a finely woven portrayal of serenity, there was now the indistinguishable features of a Jesus who was neither masculine nor feminine, Arabic nor European - just the non-descript figure of a shepherd and sheep. Just a very plain church in a very plain neighborhood in a very plain southern town.
The congregation was no different than their surroundings. Simple folks who had lived their lives in simple ways, most of them eking out their lives from day to day, not having the resources nor the inclination to look far beyond this day, this moment, this now. Simple folks adorned in simple clothing, neither draped in rags nor adorned in riches. Yet, there was a difference in this crowd, though they normally did not worship together, on this night they had come together -- Black, White, and Native-American. They had come together in the realm of community, coming together for the expressed purpose to give communal thanks, more in the light of nationalism then the light of faith. Yet, still, they had come together.
At the proper time in the service, I stood so that I might present a short description for this Thanksgiving offering, to give an introduction of the ministry which would be supported by this act of giving. I began speaking, telling my name and describing our efforts, when I stopped - stunned. I slowly looked around me and began to understood where I stood. Surrounding me, imprinted on banners hanging on the plain white-washed walls, were the names of all the books of the bible, old and new testament. Surrounding me were the tales of enactment, of creation, of faith, of acts of obedience even in the face of overwhelming despair, proclamation of hope even when enmeshed in despair - Genesis, Exodus, Revelation. Surrounding me were the voices of God proclaimed through the ages - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Luke, and James. Surrounding me were the names of all those who had gone before - Romans, Philippians, Thessalonians, Greeks, Arabs, Africans, Jews. There above us, hanging in the rafters were four large banners which boldly stated, "King of Kings," "Emmanuel," "Praise the Lord," "Jesus is Christ." And as I looked out at the 200 faces which looked back at me, as I looked at black, white, and native-American, as I looked at male and female, young and old, there in the middle of us all stood the Christ - neither black nor white nor native-American, but black and white and native-American - neither old nor young, but old and young - neither male nor female, but male and female - a shepherd in the midst of sheep. Kingdom! We were standing in the realm of Kingdom! There among us stood Jesus -- Emmanuel, God with us.
I saw Jesus later as a choir of mixed voices and mixed dress, some with robes and some without, faces of different shapes and different hues, raised the voice of community to heaven. I saw Jesus again, as an old woman danced the dance of joy and ecstasy, danced for life and love and hope, danced down the middle aisle, danced as she held on to the handles of her metal walker. And there too was Jesus, as black hand met white hand, as native-American flesh met Anglo flesh, as color and voice and hew blended into one tapestry of beauty - blended into the one tapestry of creation.
And I almost missed him. I almost missed him in this place, this wholly unexpecting place. For sometimes, if we are fortunate, if we remain awake, sometimes it not the seeing that leads to believing, but through believing when we are able to see.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Sorry ... I began to understand -- not began to understood. Reread and submit... reread and submit ... sigh...
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
RevKK mentioned the Cobbler and HIs Guest story upstream. As I had found the story to post it to another discussion, I will also post a URL here for any who wish to find the story. It can be found at http://home.earthlink.net/~hcp97/s-christmas.htm
Crystal Minugh-Brutscher <JoyinX@aol.com>
"Joy is the most infallible sign of the presence of God" -Leon Bloy "This is my commandment, that you love one another, that your joy maybe full." -Jesus of Nazareth, Passover, circa 33 C.E. "I am convinced that true religion or holiness cannot be without cheerfulness, so steady cheerfulness, on the other hand, cannot be without holiness or true religion." -John Wesley
Greetings,
Yes, this passage can seem scary to those who are not living in Christ. But isn't that what our task is? To show them how wonderful and exciting it can really be? I've never liked the idea of scaring people into heaven. I like "winning" them to heaven.
In reading this passage, I get the idea that part of the problem isn't so much that some people will not be prepared, but that they are apathetic about it. I like what the "Preaching the Revised Common Lectionary" says: "The problem addressed in Matthew is not immorality but lethargy, self-absorption, and indifference to God's immanent presence in judgement." I've decided to preach on our need to be ready. To warn us against being unconcerned about Jesus' glorious coming in the future.
Hmmm. I wonder if I straying into a contradiction? How can I preach the need to be ready for judgement without scaring anyone?
Well, still have four days to think it out.
Brandon in CA
Oh, I forgot to mention. My sermon title will be "Business As Usual?"
Catchy, do you think?
Brandon in CA
What does it mean to keep awake, to be ready:
Sleepwalking: Most people are asleep. They’re born asleep, they live asleep, they marry in their sleep, they breed children in their sleep, they die in their sleep. They never understand the loveliness and the beauty of this thing that we call human existence. All is well, all is well - though everything is a mess. Waking up is unpleasant. You’ve got to make sure of your “being” before you swing into action. You have to make sure of who you re before you act. It is not by your actions that you will be saved but by your being. It is not by what you do, but by what you are that you will be judged <Meister Eckhart> Unfortunately, all the emphasis is concentrated on changing the world and very little emphasis is given to waking up. When you wake up, you will know what to do or what not to do ....Everything becomes beautiful when you change. We see people and things not as they are, but as we are. When you finally awake, you don’t try to make good things happen; they just happen. You understand suddenly that everything that happens to you is good. When you are different, they’ll be different. The day you are different they will become different. Someone who seemed terrifying will now seem frightened. <Anthony De Mello, Awareness, 1990>
tom in ga
Earlier, I wrote of our need, as believers, to be expectant of the Lord's return, an expectancy anchored in Hope. I've found a poem that I think expresses this thought better than I ever could.
It's by Annie Johnson Flint, and I don't have the title:
It is not for a sign we are watching For wonders above and below, The pouring of vials of judgment, The sounding of trumpets of woe; It is not for a Day we are looking, Not even the time yet to be When the earth shall be filled with God's glory As the waters cover the sea; It is not for a King we are longing To make the world-kingdoms His own; It is not for a Judge who shall summon The nations of earth to His throne.
Not for these, though we know they are coming; For they are but adjuncts of Him, Before whom all glory is clouded, Besides whom all splendor grows dim. We wait for the Lord, our Beloved, Our Comforter, Master and Friend, The substance of all that we hope for, Beginning of faith, and its end; We watch for our Savior and Bridegroom, Who loved us and made us His own; For Him we are looking and longing: For Jesus, and Jesus alone.
Rick in Va
Son of Man..... as i indicated i would read some about it.... as i had recalled... there are a number of meanings in it's use, none earth shaking or requiring an "Ah Ha!!".... better that you check it out if interested... won't make a difference in my preaching. Don Hoff elmira, NY
PaideiaSCO in LA,
Could you give us some insights on your 'handle'. Is there meaning in it. Is it a theological term I've not come across yet. I'm intensely curious.
It would seem that you've bought 1 or 2 too many vowels...
I am intrigued.
Thanks,
Rick in Va
I'm going to use the old Larry Norman classic, "I Wish We'd All Been Ready."
Goes like this as best as I can remember:
Life was filled with guns and war and everyone got trampled on the floor.
I wish we'd all been ready.
Children died, the days grew cold. A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold.
I wish we'd all been ready.
There's no time to change your mind, the Son has come and you've been left behind.
A man and wife asleep in bed, she hears a noise and turns her head; he's gone.
I wish we'd all been ready.
Two men walking up a hill, one disappears and one's left standing still.
I wish we'd all been ready.
There's no time to change your mind. How could you have been so blind.
The Father spoke. The demons dined. The Son has come, and you've been left behind. You've been left behind. you've been left behind.....
Haunting melody. I like the use of past tense.
Bro_Ken (formerly, KenTurkey, eh KenTucky)
Concerning "myth," I have little problem with it as a technical term but it carries conotations which cannot be dismissed. The implication is that a myth carries truth but isn't (at least isn't necessarily) fact. Those of us on the right are quite adamant that the crucial elements of the faith (e.g. incarnation, resurrection, parousia) are factual not merely mythical. That is why we are troubled by the term "myth." I dare say, most of the people in the pews could not fail but think of Zeus or Aphrodite when hearing the word "myth." (I don't think I can either!) So, it is rather counter-productive to apply the term to scripture. I know some agnostics who gleefully point to scholar's use of "myth" to describe the scriptures, in order to dismiss the Word as fairytales.
The pastor formerly known as KenTucky
Hey, Rick,
Thanks for the beautiful Annie Johnson Flint poem. That'll preach, brother!
I'm also glad you didn't stay away long. What did you think of my silly little poem, Moderwocky?
Bro_Ken
Dear Friends,
A thought about the season of Advent as much as the texts: It seems that the season of Advent is critical for our time. Advent is about waiting. We live in a society of instant gratification. We have credit cards so we buy it RIGHT NOW. We have microwave ovens so we can eat it RIGHT NOW. We have cell phones so we don't have to wait until we get home to talk we can call RIGHT NOW. People in our pews want to sing Christmas carols RIGHT NOW. Kids want to open any presents they might see under a tree RIGHT NOW. We take aspirins and other drugs to avoid headaches as well as any other kind of aches and pains RIGHT NOW. People talk of wanting patience and wanting it RIGHT NOW. I want my sermon for Sunday - and I want it RIGHT NOW.
Advent, and the texts, speak of waiting - expectantly and hopefully to be sure - but of waiting for God's right time not our own. Waiting for the future that will come, that is sure to come. It's hard to wait. We get so impatient. We get so discouraged. We get so disillusioned. We get so frustrated. But wait.
Advent is a difficult season of the church year. But it's necessary - for us and for our people.
Grace and Peace, Jerry in MN
Perhaps the Son of Man will come while his church is endlessly debating the 'myth/literal' issue WAKE UP BROTHERS AND SISTERS!! For me the Advent message (and the message of this text) is that time is short and there isn't enough of it to waste on pointless philosophical meanderings. The imagery of this reading implies a crisis, a time of war or revolution. There is no time for metaphysics in the midst of that situation! And perhaps then there is not time for the church to be endlessly debating these things when there is work to be done, a battle to be fought against 'the powers', and a kingdom to seek!! --SB in London (England)
Thanks everybody--it seems that a thread is forming in our discussion (at least for me) that steers us in the direction of "becoming and staying aware" of . . what exactly?
That's where we disagree. . . but wait, that's just it: we don't know and we're not supposed to know exactly what the "Day of the Lord" is going to look like. Could it be that that's exactly what Jesus wanted to achieve? Keep us in the dark on specifics so we would remain awake? Example: When I'm picking up my wife at the airport, I may not even notice anybody else around me--I'll just keep looking for that familiar face in the crowd. But if I'm supposed to pick up Mrs. X (whom I've never met before), I'll be standing there with a sign ("Mrs. X") studying every passagener that comes out of that gate trying to establish eye-contact so they'll be sure to see my sign.
Christ wants us to be "sign-bearers" as well as "establishers of eye-contact" brothers and sisters. That's part of being awake I believe. Would the cobbler (see link above)from our story even have noticed anybody else had he known exactly whom to look for? Wold he have given away the white shoes? Happy Thanksgiving--Frank S. in PA
Bro_Ken,
I believe to fully enjoy the Moderwocky poem, I'd need at least a year of seminary training, but I did get the gist of it and found it funny. I appreciated greatly the warning in it.
My wife and I were discussing this text on our walk last night and we agreed that the term myth was too far associated with falsehood to be linked to the Scriptures. We too thought of Greek mythology and in this post modern world where all is myth and myth is all, we'd rather leave the term with those who find grey in the black and white.
Happy Thanksgiving to each and all and may the SOn of Man, the Son of God, be the object and the subject of our gratitude!
Rick in Va
Friends- We are at a time when we are looking for resources for these 4 weesk of Advent and Christmas Eve service.... although Xmas eve takes care of it's self in so many ways....I found a site which I think has a lot to offer.... hope others of you now about it already.... advent candle lighting ritual, carols in other languages, litanties, etc, etc. many thanks to others who make this ministry more productive. Nothing wrong with the word "myth"... play with it, think about it, if the people misunderstand it.... that's your challenge to teach.... I get the feeling at times that some who write on the DPS need not be so uptight...... be a happy preacher... your've got GOOD news to share!
Don Hoff , Elmira, NY go to http://www.rockies.net/~spirit/sermons/christmaspage.html
from Don Hoff...oopps
the site is
http://www.rockies.net/~spirit/sermons/christmaspage.html
Blessed Thanksgiving.
Thanks so much for the insights and extra links this week--inspiring!
On the theme of watching and readiness for the return of Christ, I've been thinking about how we orchestrate our holiday preparations and events. What if we were waiting for an actual baby to be born? We'd have a general idea of when it might come, but would have to be ready at any time--it might be a 'premie' or maybe an overdue baby! What if Xmas were like that--what if we simply had to be ready? We'd never know when we'd wake up and hear, "Today's the day--its Christmas today!" I've often wished Christmas were permanently set on a Sundday, like Easter. (Tho most folks in my church went crazy the last time that happened! It through them for such a loop--going to church on Christmas Day?!?!?) And yet, even that wish is just me wanting to 'handle' Xmas rather than being prepared for it to happen to me in its own time! Instead, I need to wait expectantly, preparing my heart for that 'at any moment' rebirth of Christ.
Happy Thanksgiving, Rebecca in MD
Rick, thank you so much for your interest. "Paideia" is a greek concept pertaining to education, particcularly in reference to stages of growrg/development from infancy to childhood to adolescence to adulthood. It is also a contemporary scchool reform movement following Adler, Sizer, and others. I have company called Paideia Republic, Inc. commited to the mission of deep learrning dynamics as it is grrrounded in faith development. For more of an indepth appreciattion of the tems meaning look to the 7th Chapter of Plato's Republic. Two modern terms relevant to "paideia" or that emerge from that rootage are "pedagogy" and "pediatrics". A core concept in this term I wrestle with in relation to "Myth" concerns "shadows" as can be illustrated in the Chapter referenced.......Nail-bender, thank you again for a spiritually rich revelation at the experientail and aesthetic level. You have a talent for bringing me out of the abstract, and perhaps irrelevant domain, into the Presence of the Christ!
Thanks Frank! If Advent is to teach us to "live in the state of expectancy whose capitol is Hope," like I believe it is, then too many assumptions can lead us unawares into a false state of readiness, self-absorbtion, and even lethargy. Let's go back to Tom's initial questions. Aren't they exactly the type of questions we should be asking in order to "keep awake"?
Otherwise we end up looking for some strange Christs like Kevin points out.
pHil
(also, Bro_Ken: I appreciate your concern. But why give in to contemporary misdefinition of myth? Why not instead keep clear about terms and boldly insist on the power and extent of Truth? If we start equating truth with factual we are indeed in danger. Jesus did not restrict his truth to facts. Cut the parables out of the Gospels and look what we'd lose. That myth is a powerful influence on human understanding and daily life is a fact. That there are dangerous false myths out there is a fact. Let's be diligent in preaching and living by the myths we believe to be Truth. -pHil)
Hi folks, thanks so much for this web-site and your contributions. You have no idea how much I appreciate them! Three things came down to us from the time of Jesus: the Church, the Holy communion and the New Testament. The Church is mystery -- in the Greek sense of that term -- pregnant with divinity, awesome in description, incomprehensible in perception. The Holy Communion is the same and should never be submitted to physical analysis. But the New Testament is the same also and should never be submitted to physico/historico analysis. Followers of John Calvin, that mathematician/French priest, are inclined to do this, but it is not the approach of the ancient churches. The Church and the Holy Communion came before the New Tesament. In the presence of these great mystries one doesn't have to DO anything...just be. During Advent, stop doing...just be in the midst of the Church, wrapped up in the Word, sharing in the Holy communion. Thanx again, all. Fruitful Advent!
What am I missing? Please free to help me. Jesus uses three illustrations in this passage and if held to the critical scrutiny some of my early sermons have received from teachers, etc., they would have to be found wanting as only partially appropriate and not consistent with each other. I'm not so much perplexed by the incongruency of waiting for God as one would anticipate a thief coming to rob your goods as I am by the reference to Noah. First of all, Jesus warns that the coming of the Son of Man would catch people unaware. Well that was the point of the flood! Destroy everything except a selectively chosen few. The only ones saved were NOT unaware. God told them exactly what was going to happen and exactly how to prepare and were probably mocked for it. But Noah was not instructed to warn others. The parallel contemporary example would be those who sell all their posessions to a cult leader and move to Idaho or Montana to await Jesus' imminent return (in the midst of mockery from folks like me). In the next illustration, the folks in the field and those grinding grain, represent the exact opposite scenario. They are taken in the midst of everyday life. They have not been saved by building an ark or fleeing to the fields. They are not distinguishable in terms of activity from those who are NOT taken.
What's it to be? What model for living expectantly do we follow? Is there a narrowed focus Jesus has in mind that is true for each illustration? Or are we to make a synthesis of them all?
pHil
Kevin in Ok,
Somehow I missed your post and went back to read it after others had commented.
I believe your post goes to the heart of the debate between myth and revealed truth. Belief in myths has led us to an environment where your questions are central.
The Scriptures ask the question for us: "Who do you say that I am?" And the Scriptures reveal the answer. Will we as shepherds and shepherd-wanna-bees lead the flock by pointing to myths (and I don't mean parables, Biblical analogies, and the like)? Or will we lead the flock by pointing them to Truth revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ, by His Holy Spirit, through the power of God the Father's Word?
I don't mind calling the parables myths. I have no problem labeling analogies, metaphors, or symbolic passages as myths. But the resurrection, the virgin birth, Christ's divinity, Christ as the Lamb of God are not myths as too many in the Church are now stating. If we are to believe that they are myths, then we will believe anything. And believing in anything leads to belief in the false Christs believed by far too many, as Kevin has so poignantly pointed out.
This week's posts are all excellent. I thank you all for your stimulating thoughts, thoughts that stimulate my faith. However, Kevin, I believe your thoughts and questions are central to that which the Church is debating today.
The reason why, in my view, the authority of Scripture must be upheld and defended is Reason itself. When authority of His Word is diminished, the proliferation of the myth-ful rather than the faithful, is the result. And I believe the myth-ful are living in that state of deception whose capitol is hopelessness.
Thanks Kevin!
At the risk of cheapening our discussion, but making the point, I nominate you for DPS Angel of the Week.
Rick in Va
To All, So where can I find the Cobbler's Story mentioned earlier? Help!!! Revup
To All, So where can I find the Cobbler's Story mentioned earlier? Help!!! Revup
Revup- you'll find the Cobbler Story, and others at http://home.earthlink.net/~hcp97/s-christmas.htm
which Crystal sent to us earlier
Don Hoff
To Paideia and pHil,
Why use a term like "myth" that is certain to mislead? Simply because it is certain to mislead and the effort to explain doesn't bring any great insight to scripture or life. Sure Truth is not the same as fact but they are related. Plato's cave is a beautiful myth which carries a great deal of Truth. But it is our conviction that we have a man who REALLY did what Plato imagined. He knew the Source of light (actually was the Source) and entered the cave to tell the prisoners that all they see are shadows and was dispised for His effort. Now if we call our Story "myth" then we effectively equate it with Plato or a hundred other stabs at the Truth which come close but "miss the mark." Those other stories are nice, but can you trust them? Can you put your whole weight on them? Your whole life? Our faith is that this One Story is Myth become REALITY! What a concept!
Blessed Thanksgiving to All
Bro_Ken
Can't help but think that the late (today)Flip Wilson as Geraldine or the preacher could tell us... "what you see is what you get".... for us with this week's text, it is what we don't see, but trust is coming anyway. We know that justice is coming, harmony is coming, we know that God's final amen is coming. We don't know when .... but we live with expectation...("wait"comes from the same root "esperar" as "hope") We live in the hope...
Who in our lives has taught us the lessons of how to wait? Question for the preacher and pew hugger. I admire those persons in our families and churches who know how to wait....they live with a fullness and sweetness as if this might be the time, might be the day...... or on the other hand... maybe tomorrow!
Don Hoff, Elmira NY donaldhoff@aol.com
To Paideia and pHil,
thanks for reminding us that it is part of our task as preachers... to be rabbis as well.... to teach... and answer questions which tend to confuse or sound contradictory. Use "myth" and then teach the various meaning and concepts. Just look at what has happened this week with the use of the word. Aren't some of us more enlightened than we were on Monday? Man, if we want it easy... we should give up dps, all the commentaries and just spit out what the "official line" is. No, I see our role is to struggle with spiritual matters... not necessarily come to hard and fast answers.... It is ok to preach in the midst of confusion and even say " "Brothers and Sisters, i imagine you might be as confused about(.......)this as i find myself". At times it is not only ok, but necessary to preach our doubts along with our faith. We are not afraid even though all has been revealed to us.
Don Hoff
Wait.... hold the presses! thanks to the ability to be forgiven and take back typos..... I offer a correction.... (don't you love to do that during your sermon when you've mispoken and the ye balls roll... then you step back and say "let me restaate that!)
My correction is " ...We are not afraid even though all has NOT been revealed to us."
Thank you Lord for the opportunity to change that!
Don Hoff
This is a long post, but I'm excited about this theme and I wanted to include the poem at the end. Both the Second Lesson and the Gospel seem to be about staying awake. Jesus' metaphor about not letting the thief break in if you knew the time he was breaking in, seems to mean that we have to stay awake all the time, or rather be ready all the time, but not in the fearful way you would for a thief or even for the bus to come, but in the relaxed way you would for the curtain going up (thanks for that from a contributor to DPS above). So the first way to keep awake is, paradoxically, to rest and relax! Most people are calm and peaceful on the outside, but anxious and struggling and battling on the inside. Shouldn't we be the converse? Fatigue is one of our biggest modern problems. Much of it, even over-tiredness, probably comes from anxiety which makes us lose sleep. Overwork and over-doing (and how much does it really accomplish?) is also probably caused by anxiety. We can relax and rest if we believe the Word of God that everything will be resolved in the End and God will win! (BTW, "GOD WILL WIN!" is on my screen-saver.) The second way to keep awake is to keep fighting, but only the important battles, seeking first the Kingdom of God. The rest we should let go, because the time is short. The third way to keep awake is to be ready at any time for the end, living each day as if it really is our last. For most of us, the End will probably be our death, and we should probably get up in the morning and say, "I died last night and I'm going to die tonight. What should I do to live today?" It sounds morbid, but if the Chariot swings low and comes for to carry me home today, where will my plans and projects be? Finally, a poem by Robert P. Crosby to illustrate: "I always walk right next to death/ He's just a touch away./ He may reach o'er and take my breath/ And end my mortal stay. His presence need not morbid be/ Nor need he be denied./ I simply brush reality/ To know he's at my side. Each moment then may be my last/ Each thought, each word, each deed./ If this be so then I can cast/ Away pretension's need. That I be this or I be that/ That I be who I'm not./ That I be who I think you'll like,/ That I be who you thought. If every moment of my life/ be that moment— no more,/ Perhaps I then can choose to be/ my truthful self— my core. This death he is my wise old man,/ Perspective in life's fray./ I always walk right next to death/ He's just a touch away. Jim from B.C.
And rememb er the disciples behavior when Jesus asked them to stay awake and pray???? Just thinking about that. RevKK
To all I have been following the debate on MYTH over the last little while. My question to the group is "Who Is Going To Preach any of it and how has it helped the group prepare for Advent and the First Sunday Thereof which according to my calendar is upon us as i write. When we nit pic at words we lose the sight of Christ that Advent brings. Advent is a time oF Expectation, anticipation and hope filled wonderment. I wonder at the time lost in preparing by the distractions of a word. Just as the world is being distracted by the shopping season so we are being distracted by a word. To answer one the common thread of the text is they all Did Not Know what was about to happen. We do! there is a power in not knowing , it allows us to continue the staues quo without fear of tomorrow. Jesus is clear in his statement that had they known they would have done different, In our knowning do we prepare differently? Just a couple of thoughts from the mind of Fred Craddock. Rich in NC
Was it Harry Emerson Fosdick who said that we ought to preach with a Bible in one hand and the daily newspaper in the other? In the midst of two weeks' worth of gospel texts from the "little apocalypse," I picked up the Washington Post to discover that Jerry Falwell is distributing a videotape about Y2K expectations. He's encouraging his followers to prepare for the worst in the year 2000 by stocking up on food, gasoline, and ammunition (!). When I mentioned this at a Thanksgiving gathering yesterday, I actually heard stories about people in our community who are taking this advice to heart! Certainly this seems like something to address in the pulpit this Sunday. I'm having a lot of trouble matching Jesus' call to expectancy with a call to pick off hungry neighbors with a high-powered rifle!
Bill in SoMD
"Keep awake, therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming" (vs.42)
A few thoughts about staying awake, watching and waiting: When a person stands watch it is best not to fix the eyes on one spot--it is easy to be mesmerized by that one focus, grow dull in watching, and fall asleep. Rather, it is easier to stay awake by keeping the eyes moving to see the changes that occur. This is how we watch. What this means for us as Christians is that when we become too concerned about WHEN Christ will come we can become careless to the present, such that we miss the changes that occur around us, in us, and through us. In effect, we risk missing Christ's coming in the present if we are watching and waiting with eyes fixed in one place, for God is not fixed to one place.
We watch and wait and stay awake in a community of other disciples doing the same. We have each other to help us watch and wait together, for no one can stay awake day after day without some help from others. Is there not the necessity for a “changing of the shift” from time to time?
LC in NY
I think I know a little more this week about the "waiting" process. My son was coming home from Illinois to Texas by bus. He is 15 and was travelling all by himself for the first time. I told him I would meet him in Tulsa so he wouldn't have to make the whole trip home alone. Otherwise he would have waited an extra 3 and a half hours in Tulsa before finishing the trip home. He was to arrive at 2am Tuesday morning. The bus came and he was not on it! I called his last stop-off in St. Louis and theysaid he was not there. I had no way of finding him or of where he was at! The next bus came and still he was not there. I called home to my answering machine and punched in the code and heard his messages. He was almost crying--said something about the bus from one place was late so he missed his connecting ride. There was also a message from my brother telling me that my son was allright and that he would be arriving in Tulsa around 7am Tuesday morning. I did not leave that depot. I waited for each bus to come and to see if he was on them. Over 25 buses came and he was not on any of them. I stood next to the door of the depot looking out the window with my nose pressed against the glass waiting for my son to come home. At a time I did not expect---9:30am Tuesday morning a bus pulled up and I looked inside and saw my son!! I can't describe the feeling in my heart when I saw him, safe and returned to me! Oh if only I could start waiting like that for my Lord and Savior to return! My love for Jesus is so great that I think to myself, "How can I not proclaim the good news until His return?" God's blessings are always present. Sometimes we just have to press our noses to the glass to see them!
Brian in Texas
The Second Coming is an anitdote for sloth - awakening out of my indifference to things around me; bringing me to attention, when I have been living with inattention: being more concerned about self, or my situation than with the things of God. Sloth sticks to us like heavy dew and we cannot get rid of it by ourselves unless we attend to the Word of God.
tom in ga
To one and to all: I have been "hitting" the DPS site for nearly four months now. I tune-in each week, and several a times each day for up-dates. The postings for all the scriptural texts for this First Sunday in Advent have been outstanding. From the perspective of my limited exposure to DPS this week's comments are the best to date. Having been ordained for thirty-five years, and coming from a liturgical tradition (Catholic), I thought that I had just about exhausted every perspective on "Advent Expectation." How wrong I was! Thank you all for the many excellent faith-reflections. Thank you to those who have posted "links." Very helpful. With regards to the discussion of "myth", it appears to me that four schools of thought are emerging: + those contributors who accept the premise and definition by Tom in GA that a myth "is a truth which transcends history"; + those contributors, such as Rick in VA, who want to safe guard the unique, divine revelatory nature and truth of Jesus and Sacred Scripture within the particularity of history as "fact"; + those contributors who are creatively finding a "middle ground" between the above two schools of thought; and + those contributors who summarily dismiss the entire discussion as idle speculation. Each of the above "schools of thought" has greatly enriched my own musings on the subject. Bill in SoMD, (above), suggested the supposed dictum of Harry Emerson Fosdick as, "We ought to preach with a Bible in one hand and the daily newspaper in the other." I suggest that "we ought to preach with a Bible in one hand and the DPS Scripture postings in the other." Gregory in Dot, MA
27 NOV 98 Nice try, Tom in GA, on myth--I'm with you, that a myth can point to a truth far greater than one historical occurence, but most folks have a far more pejorative use/history of the term. How can this text be one of hope? Well, I'll approach the blessing of NOT knowing the time (of the end, beginning of Christ's return). I beleive that (as Douglas John Hall points out) anxiety is one hard reality of the human condition. E.g., in the 2nd creation myth (I mean story, I mean parable--Genesis 2) ha adam is anxious even before sin enters the picture. I.e., he--unlike the other creatures--has a future time horizon and wonders about things. Why not that tree? What's the problem? Can't I do/know more? THe Result? Temptation and anxiety. Trying to predict the apocolypse (which even Jesus could not do, being fully human)is a source of much anxiety and the relief comes in resolving that old struggle of whether or not to trust God. When we can do that, we can continue living productive lives of discipleship, with the end in mind, but not with preoccupation with what is God's business. The other teaching from this text is that which contradicts the Daniel/Revelation (to St. John) picture of the end-times being marked with dramatic events, evil, wars, pestilence, etc. Jesus points out that for many that time will come in the midst of the ordinary--living, working, marrying, eating, drinking, etc. SO, many have some fun suggesting that the Soviet Union, the U.S., Iraq, China or whoever will be ushering in the end of the age and Jesus says that God is in charge of the timing. And our greatest challenge will not be in responding to dramatic signs of the end, but in overcoming the lulling power of complacency and the ordinary. Peter in CA
". . . The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be a myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens--at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle. I suspect that men have sometimes derived more spiritual sustenance from myths they did not believe than from the religion they professed. To be truly Christian we must both assent to the historical fact and also receive the myth (fact though it has become) with the same imaginative embrace which we accord to all myths. The one is hardly more necessary than the other."
--C. S. Lewis, "Myth Became Fact," in the collection of essays God in the Dock
Bill in SoMD
The task for all of us is difficult - we have the good news to proclaim, and our society is off stuffing themselves with gifts: "give me ... give me ... give me ..." - as a people we have hardly advanced past the age of 2. How do we preach in the midst of greed. What does greed do to us, how does it deaden us from life around us? I love Christmas morning as much as everyone else, but as I get older I feel more and more guilty that I am one the richest people in the world and I want more ... how does this Gospel speak to me?
tom in ga
Fosdick? I'm almost positive it was Karl Barth who admonished us to keep both Bible and newspaper in hand. So don't go too far with that quote before checking it out. - a quotecop
thank you to you all. This has been a great site for guidance. I was and am a little nervous. My first sermon as a student minister is tomorrow and throughout this week I have enjoyed going down your comments to see if I was alone in where I was going and to look for ideas and I think that you have given me a glimpse at the gospel in your batting back and forth and I thank you, I love the St. Bernard's three comings and the Martin the Cobbler Story especially and will treasure them a gifts from this spot in time- Say a prayer and in the love of God and Christ I will open my mouth, heart and soul to try to communicate a piece of what all of you are working on the word of Him who loves us all. JJ from Ontario
Bill in SoMD,
The C. S. Lewis quote is powerful. I had not seen that before.
Gregory in DOT,
I believe you have me pegged... I would add two words to your description of my perspective. Insert "and proclaim" after the words "safe guard." I appreciate your insight.
Peter in CA,
Contradiction is not the word I would use in describing Scripture. While you and I sit comfortably in front of our computers posting our thoughts on DPS (what we might consider our being in the midst of the ordinary), around the world dramatic events, evil, wars, pestilence, etc. are occuring at the same time. What might be contradictory about this?
It would seem that many of the "contradictions" found in Scripture are in reality found instead in the doubts and ignorance and finite knowledge of the reader. Let us, as someone else has mentioned, be teachers as well as preachers, and teach that which fuels faith rather than that which fuels doubt.
Why would shepherds want to fuel belief in doubts and strengthen doubt in beliefs?
Rick in Va
JJ from Ontario--
pretty exciting time.... first sermon as student pastor....have seen many a preacher blossom... It is a mixture , like so many treasures, of boldness and humility. In reading the journals of the early Methodist circuit riders (1790's-1810), I was impressed by their courage(theye travelled in all kinds of weather fording streams, sleeping in the open some times), sense of humor( one said that he only feared 3 things in Western NY( bears, blizzards and baptists), and their humility( they would write "I tried to preach this night.... I tried to preach to those gathered..."). You stand in a wonderful traditon of others who tried to preach, you stand on the shoulders of those who came before you and often paid a high price for the right to preach, and you stand with your Brother Jesus who is there who told the truth that few could or wanted to understand... and he did it with humor.
One down, and about another 2,000 to go Prayers to you and the pew huggers in Ontario...
Don Hoff donaldhoff@aol.com
This came from my Weight Watcher's group -- I don't remember what it had to do with WW, as my mind immediately began churning . . .
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
I plan to use this, somehow, to talk about why we should live our lives in readiness -- because no one knows the day or the hour.
I'm thinking about the ways people wait in lines -- shifting back and forth from foot to foot; staring off into space; striking up a conversation with a stranger.
About two weeks ago, the teachers had been talking at school how the 'f' word has become an adjective for almost everything. I put the discussion off as influenced by the unique population at school. After all, it is not a word we hear around church very often. However, I was waiting at Penny's that weekend to return some items. The line was extremely long. One would've thought it was the day after Christmas. A man and a woman walked in. The man looked over the situation and said "Jesus Christ, it ain't even f---ing Christmas yet." I was appalled, sickened, I don't know what. I almost said something, but then decided if the brute could utter such words, he probably didn't care much what anyone else thought. As a matter of fact, he eventually threw his stuff on the counter, told the clerk, we're going to find our returns, and walked off, while all those who came before him were still waiting in line.
Perhaps our focus as preachers should be on those who don't even really know why or what they're waiting for, or care. They are the ones who need to know that God cares for them enough to wait for them to turn to Him.
RevJan
I would agree with the quote cop re: "Bible in one hand, newspaper in the other". I have only heard that particular quote attributed to Karl Barth.
I'm not preaching this week, but have enjoyed checking in on the discussion.
SueCan
We used the story about Martin a few Advents ago - it lends itself very well to waklk-through performances of the characters in the book, while a narrator reads the story. Thanks to all who provided links - still looking for this year's story!
We used the story about Martin a few Advents ago - it lends itself very well to waklk-through performances of the characters in the book, while a narrator reads the story. Thanks to all who provided links - still looking for this year's story! kbc in sc
We used the story about Martin a few Advents ago - it lends itself very well to waklk-through performances of the characters in the book, while a narrator reads the story. Thanks to all who provided links - still looking for this year's story! kbc in sc
Thanks, quotecop and SueCan for your correction on the quotation. I'm having "elder moments" more and more these days.
Bill in SoMD (I think!)
Quotecop, SueCam, Bill in SoMD, and other quoters of "quotable quotes"....The story goes that when Karl Barth went to Heaven he met the venerable philospher Confucius. They both were perplexed over all the "quotable quotes" attributed them on earth. "Yes," said Confucius,"Who says all those things they say I say?".....You can quote me on that one!......Gregory in Dot, MA
pHiL,
This is a little late since it is Saturday at 11:30, so you may not see this before tomorrow, but I wanted to respond to your questions.
Yes, it is true that God did not instruct Noah to warn the people since it was his intention to rid the world of all the sinful people. However, think about it. The ark was not small object. When Noah built it (and it had to have taken many months), it would have been obvious. People had to have noticed it. Yet, did they do anything? According to the Bible, no! No one came to Noah and asked to be taken along. They were too involved with their wickedness. Or maybe they didn't believe anything was really going to happen. Who knows?
As too Jesus' other illustrations, I understand them as pointing out when Jesus will come. Not when we are expecting him like some people do when they go to the mountaintop to await the end of the world or the second coming of Jesus. If fact, we don't know when he is returning. Even Jesus doesn't know as verse 36 tells us.
So, as you pointed out, what is the model for living expectantly. I, myself, understand it to be prepared by living as God has called us to live. To live justly, righteously, and lovingly. I see this passage as a call to live our lives as if Jesus was returning very soon.
Hope I gave you some directions to pursue.
Incidently, I have a story about preaching I would like to share. On the first day of class in my first preaching class, the professor told this story that he claimed was true (although it didn't happen to him): A student in a preaching class wanted to do well. So when he wrote his sermon and preached it, he had all the theological points in it. When he was done, his professor said, "That was an excellent sermon. But tell me, what are you going to preach next week?"
May God bless our preaching in the new Christian year,
Brandon
Oops! A sentence didn't make sense. It should have been:
As to Jesus' other illustrations, I understand them as pointing out what will happen when Jesus comes.
Brandon
Many thanks for all the insights. I appreciate the St.Bernard reference, and will use it. I had forgotten where it had come from. I've titled my sermon for tomorrow "Light -- For Three Advents," built on his three comings.(not a very clever title, to be sure). I tuned to dps to pick up my intro promise (story), and got it in the "snooze switch" at the very beginning of the Gospel postings.l But thecontributions this week were so terriffic I stayed tuned all the way through.So, a couple of thanks: To Rick in va, for the poem. I've printed it. But also to Rick, one of my old theological professors emphasized that "if your faith has no doubts you have reason to doubt your faith," for "My ways are not your ways . . ." and only THEN will we know as we are known. The professors point was that those who have no doubts are putting themselves on a level with God, and that preachers should be more humble than that. To those who expressed concern about the materialism of the season, I hope we can get into a discussion of a "Theology of Enough!" Jesus spoke to this so often in his parables! but we seem not to have caught on, or at least, we don't seem to heed his teaching.
About those "narrow literalists" who take at face value that Jesus will actually return. When I was a very small boy my brother was away in the Air Force. Some of my earliest memories are of the anxious excitement among my family, me included, when we expected him to come home on leave. I suppose we could have discussed the metaphorical significance of what a son's or brother's return might mean. But we sure would have been disappointed if he never drove up in the driveway.
Jim, in Georgia
Nearly the last poster: who are you? I liked your "Affirmation of Doubts". kculp@awod.com
If I've given the impression that I have few doubts then I've led down the wrong path. My doubts are many. I just don't think that as shepherds, as leaders of the flock, we should be dwelling on them or teaching from a perspective of doubt.
It's one thing to state an honest "I dunno", it's quite a different thing to teach from a perspective that diminishes faith.
I've come away from sermons where I truly wondered why the guy was preaching. They've made me question my beliefs, to dwell on my doubts. I believe that's unhealthy.
I think instead a preacher is to feed the faith that God gifts us with, to fan the flames into an active, meaningful and steadfast faith, not a questioning, philosophical and dead skepticism. There are far too many cynics in the pulpits today, we don't need any more of them.
Rick in Va