Date: 8/27/2005
Time: 10:55:26 AM
Hmm ... "seventy times seven" ... on the anniversary of 9/11. Anyone else feeling the homiletical weight of this one? deuteronomy
Date: 9/1/2005
Time: 8:27:01 AM
In this gospel reading, Jesus invites us to forgive one another. His invitation, however, is not an optional activity for Christians. It is the heart of the gospel and the distinctive character of Christian life. Out of love for us in our weakness and sin, God forgives us, heals us, and strengthens us to be a forgiving people. The sign of the cross invites us to the ministry of reconciliation in word and sacrament. The cross, marked on our foreheads at baptism and traced over our bodies at the funeral liturgy, assures us of Christ's victory over death and the promise of eternal life.
Date: 9/1/2005
Time: 8:29:35 AM
Jesus has been instructing his disciples about confronting other people who live in ways that are sinful. Now, Peter's question about forgiveness elicits a parable that clarifies this issue. Although the community of faith should challenge sinners to repent, it should also proclaim a forgiveness that reflects the bountiful mercy of God.
Date: 9/1/2005
Time: 8:36:23 AM
Forgiving is a strange way to settle an account. When you settle an account, you want both sides of the ledger to balance—what goes out should equal what comes in. Jesus tells a story in this gospel about a king who wants to settle accounts. His slave owes him an incredible amount of money—millions of dollars. What does it mean to settle this account with forgiveness? How do you make millions of dollars of indebtedness disappear from the books?____________________________________________________Jesus teaches us to pray, "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." This gospel is a case study in Jesus' new economy. The only way to settle these kinds of accounts is to internalize the debts we have incurred. The moral record-keeping that motivates Peter's initial question ("How often am I going to have to forgive?") will get in the way of this revolution. The king seeks a transformation of the heart, a deep identification with the offender that allows us to experience our neighbor's pain as well as our own. Perhaps we are capable of forgiving only to the extent we ourselves have been forgiven! Keeping score on forgiveness is a sign that we are still enmeshed in the old economy of moral bookkeeping.________________________________________Jesus suggests that the new economy of the heart flows from an inner transformation generated by undeserved love. Forgiveness is meant to create a chain reaction that not only changes who we are but also alters how we deal with others. In our worship we taste the grace of God that welcomes sinners to Jesus' table and fills them with himself. How will we be changed by this encounter? How will our lives this week witness to the inner transformation of forgiven slaves who use God's economy of undeserved love to make a new world?______________________________________________S'n'S
Date: 9/1/2005
Time: 8:46:18 AM
Peter's question to Jesus about forgiveness anticipates that the issue is one of quantity: "how many times?" Jesus response, however, transforms this into a matter of attitude. Jesus teaches that life in God's reign calls for a daily release of all that keeps us in debt to one another and to God.________________________________________________In considering Jesus' parables in Matthew, most biblical scholars suggest that we must be careful not to reduce them all to allegories in which the character who is in power is seen to represent God. Such a reading here, in particular, portrays God as arbitrary in first offering and then withdrawing forgiveness and as one who "tortures" those who fail to obey. This does not befit the God that Jesus describes in the Sermon on the Mount.______________________________________________Instead, we might see this parable, like others this season, as comparing and contrasting the ways of the world with the ways of God's realm. Jesus' story puts exaggeration into play. The debt of 10,000 talents would be around a billion dollars today. Even the "small" debt of a hundred days' wages would be far more than an ordinary person might have incurred. One might wonder if this is a political statement about the global economy.____________________________________________The offer of forgiveness by the king (later withdrawn) could be read as protecting the king's security, reputation, and power against potential rivals. Thus, the parable invites us to contrast forgiveness used as a weapon to enhance one's power (as the king wields it) with God's call to forgive without an eye toward personal credit._____________________________________________The parable goes one step further, recalling Jesus' teaching in the Lord's Prayer. Only as we treat others with authentic love can we know how deeply God seeks to offer each of us a fresh start, beginning this very day.________________________________________________SotS
Date: 9/3/2005
Time: 12:26:41 PM
The weight of 9/11. I am feeling it. I preached on for seven weeks on the Prayer of St. Francis and saved the verse on forgiveness for this week.... Question: I remember reading/hearing a saying about holding a grudge.. Something about what it does to you like making you bitter... anyone know about that? Nancy-WI
Date: 9/4/2005
Time: 12:49:47 PM
As far as grudge holding, consider also Matthew 6:14-15, "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Grudge holding excludes one from the Kingdom, while having a peaceful, "77 times forgiving" heart is not a deal, but a seal of God's forgiveness....... Luther in IA
Date: 9/4/2005
Time: 4:32:31 PM
I saw an interesting bumper sticker last week. "Must be present to win." Not sure what the owner of the car meant; but it does say something about forgiveness. You cannot be fully present in life if you are nursing hurts from the past. Also, saw a good slogan on a church sign today (not mine). "Life is more fun when you don't keep score." Ruby from Texas
Date: 9/4/2005
Time: 6:36:30 PM
Hi Nancy in WI - I don't know a saying about grudge-holding making one bitter, but I do know the one that goes like this: "Anger is a hot coal. It only burns the one holding it." I think that one works for forgiveness. Senior Cindy
Date: 9/4/2005
Time: 6:57:14 PM
How do we tackle the elephant in the forum... that of forgiving those who are trying to kill us... How do we forgive the 911 terrorists? How do we move from blaming any thing and everything for a response that was slower than many think possible in Katrina. ------------ This text coming on the anniversary of 9/11 is difficult-------------- But in my parish it is the grudges held and nursed that do more imediate damage. ------------ Do we preach for the everyday? Do we preach for the world? Do we preach about God's forgiveness? At the moment... I am rambling more questions than answers... "it is in pardoning that we are pardoned" Nancy WI
Date: 9/4/2005
Time: 8:09:01 PM
Last Sunday the sermon focused on how Jesus would have us treat tax collectors and sinners, and how he would never exclude them, even when they continued in their sin. Mercy knows no bounds. This 70x7 fits very nicely as a continuation of the idea that mercy does not have a final boundary, but just keeps flowing. MO13
Date: 9/4/2005
Time: 8:55:22 PM
can we forgive the wind and the water and storm for being the wind and the water and the storm? Storyteller
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 08:45:47
Maybe we are called to forgive the wind, the rain and the sea because they were formed that way, just as we are called to forgive others and ourselves because we were formed human and not God. Nancy WI
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 12:48:02
i watched a movie about the younger years of Pope john paul II- he was a young man in Poland when it was occipied by Nazis- he said in essence, if we fight evil with anger, then we may defeat this enemy, but it will return under a new name( he was right- Poland went from torture from nazis to torture from communist) but if we fight evil with love, then evil will soon devour itself. Justice and revenge are not the same thing. the lessons Peanut Butter
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 13:41:53
Isn't it easier to ask forgivness and expect it than to forgive? Sometimes we find that we are not so ready to forgive another, and it may even be that the sin we are asked to forgive is one which we ourselves have been guilty . Louise preacherlady in Ga.
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 14:31:12
How about the old cliche "to forgive is to forget"??? Isn't it more true that we can forgive without forgetting, especially in light of 9-11? I heard someone say once that if you truly forgive you will forget the sin - maybe he meant something different. Any thoughts? revjaw
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 14:43:13
Where do confession and repentance enter in? Is it not harder to forgive someone who shows no remorse, no sense of repentance; someone who doesn't think they need forgiveness? revjaw
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 14:59:28
Seems to me to ask the victim to forgive and to FORGET is to cause further injury. Forgiving does not guarantee one does not feel pain on remembering. I think folks see forgetting as a method of escaping from the pain of the injury once it is forgiven. For me, forgiving means changing "what I will do with the injury/harm". When I forgive it basically means that I will not use the harm caused me to injure the perpetrator or further injure myself or others. To forgive often means I will shed tears. Shhhhheheeeehhhhsssshhhh!!! I hate forgiving and find it very very difficult. Infact, I try hard to live a lifestyle where I cause not harm and I am caused no harm. yep!!! Storyteller
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 16:22:17
revjaw: I'm extremely repentent when I realize just how much I've been forgiven. When I've heard the good news about, that God is coming to make us and the whole creation new, then I'm moved to let go of all the things I cling to in his place...............................................God comes straight out and promises to give us all the gifts of grace, to forgive us, destroy the grave for us, and make us and the whole creation new. Then comes the repentance, not because we must impress Jesus with how penitent we are, but just because his gifts are so great...............................................That's how the old sinner in us dies. God kills the old you each day with kindness. The God of grace keeps showering you with promises and gifts until finally the old you just plain dies of it. It happens as the Spirit working through the Word enables you to say, "I don't have to impress God anymore or prove that I can take care of myself. I can count on God to keep the word. I repent--you are the Lord. Do what you think is best."
Date: 06 Sep 2005
Time: 20:56:30
Friends, I'm not comfortable with the posts from Augsburg Press material. Isn't this an infringlement of the copy right? If this is done without permission, is it not thief, is it not sin to use this material? Sue in East Ohio.
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 02:37:21
I'm having a problem with this parable - how can we preach a God of unconditional forgiveness when this parable seems to say that our forgiveness is conditional? J
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 02:37:54
I'm having a problem with this parable - how can we preach a God of unconditional forgiveness when this parable seems to say that our forgiveness is conditional? J
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 06:04:30
Dear friends, Just a thought early in the week on this heavy subject. It isn’t just about 9/11: It is the neighbor who borrowed a tool and didn’t return it. It is the rucus of the neighbors that keeps us awake each night. The ill word at a church meeting that caused a family to leave and not return. It is the job lost to a lesser qualified person with better connections. Spouse that was left after they said “Till death do us part.” Child whose father or mother is absent by choice. It is the family feud that has been there for decades with no end in sight. Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 06:32:33
J:________In our appropriation of this vivid story we must be careful to distinguish between parable and allegory. As in many rabbinic parables, the figure of the king serves allegorically as a reference to God, but this does not mean that all the details of the king's behavior can be taken as statements about the nature of God. Just as we do not regard God as an Oriental despot who would sell women into sexual slavery as punishment for their husbands' sins, so we need not take the concluding detail about unending physical torture as indicative of the divine nature._____________________________________________Although the story focuses on the heartless behavior of the pardoned criminal, the theological center is the astounding magnanimity of the king. So it is with the kingdom of heaven. Those who wish to be part of that kingdom must imitate the incalculable patience and generosity of its sovereign.__________________________________________It is a mistake, however, to think of unlimited forgiveness simply as a matter of the imitation of God. Who is capable, by the mere exercise of the will, of becoming "perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"? We are driven back to the beginning of the discourse. Those who wish to enter the kingdom of unlimited forgiveness are without hope unless they turn and become like children. Only utter dependence on our heavenly Parent will enable us to transcend human wisdom concerning how to deal with those who sin against us and to manifest instead something of God's own way of dealing with sinners.____________________________________________D.R.A.H.
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 06:33:39
Isn't refusing to forgive the sin of pride? Aren't I in essence saying, "God, You go ahead and forgive him/her but I know better and I'm not going to." How arrogant we can be! When we struggle to forgive, we can grab hold of God's strength and power to help us break through our barriers of hatred and hurt. There's a wonderful true story from Corrie ten Boom that speaks to her struggle with forgiving the Nazi at whose hand she and her sister suffered cruelly. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/boom.html ~ flameon
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 07:02:56
Senior Cindy can you tell me who said the quote you used? I'd like to use it in my message but I want to give proper credit. RevRah from Detroit
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 07:06:13
Nancy-WI ~ the quote I know is as follows: "Never hold a grudge, bitterness will eat away at you." [excerpted from THIRTY NEVERS by Diarmuid Cronin]
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 07:25:40
I'm putting this together with Ps. 137. The way to forgiveness is by offering our injury to God, rather than through our own ability to understand and empathize. Brian in MN
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 07:28:24
My question is "What, truly, is forgiveness?" WHat does it mean? It seems that most people believe it to mean saying "that's alright" when another apologizes. But is that really it? Can true forgiveness happen (and mean anything) without true acknowledgement and repentance by the wrong-doer? Can one forgive 70-times-7 times and not be seen as a doormat? ANd where does justice fit in? GOd calls us to be justice-focussed (not necessarliy forgiveness-focussed)but too many people think of justice as pay back. SOme early thoughts to combine this pericope, the Exodus passage and the anniversary of 9/11. Gord in ON
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 07:53:34
This is the Sunday is Rally Sunday when our Sunday Scchool starts up again after the summer break. Lots of young families will be back with us. I'm wondering how to fit today's readings in with this. One thought is that all three readings show us how to live as people of God. Exodus - with trust, Romans - without judging others, Matthew- with forgiveness. Any ideas. Blessings, Saskie.
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 09:28:25
At the national youth gathering some years ago, Bishop Tutu was a speaker. He shared a story of how Nelson Mandela had been imprissoned and abused by the leaders in South Africa. Yet, when he was freed and became President, his first act was not to get the guys who got him but rather to invite them to dinner. Truly an example of forgiveness. On a more personal note, My father was an alcoholic. A nice one, but an alcoholic none the less. When my mom died (I was 12) he checked out in the parenting dept. but he and I were still close.. One day, after I was grown and had my kids, I sat him down and listed all the things that his drinking had done to me. I included in that list that it made me a much more compationate and observant person. It made me strong as I had no choice but to be strong. And so, while I would not want anyone to have to deal with the issues I did as a kid, I am greatful for the person they made me. And, I held no resentments to him for it. I ended by telling him he could no longer feel guilty or use that guilt as a reason to drink. It didn't change him... not outwardly, but it changed me. I could love him at the end of his life for who he was... and not resent who he wasn't. Not preaching this week..but great text to discuss.. Tammy in Texas
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 09:32:29
Forgive and forget? I say "Forgive and remember"-- remember it all. Remember what the sinner had suffered. Remember what we said and did that contributed to the situation. Remember the times that we have intentionally or unintentionally done the same kinds of things that now trouble us. When we "remember everything" we may discover that our anger and our pride has been notched down several significant degrees.------------ Our tendency is to maintain only a selective memory. I make no excuse for the criminals of 9/11 (or for the neighbor who didn't return the borrowed tool). I have discovered that no one wants to remember the things that shape the mindset of the Middle East Marketplace. There are certainly two sides of the issue. Certainly, the Crusades are too far back to remember, even though some of the "Christians" of that era gloated in the excesses of maiming and slaughtering heathens-- both Jews and Moslem. I'm not blaming the British for parceling up the lands of the Mid East to favor the west and its growing need for oil. I'm not blaming the Jews for seeking the security of a homeland in face of European atrocities. I'm not blaming the Israel's founders, even if their independence was largely won with guerilla tactics and strategically placed bombs in hotels and other public places. I'm not blaming the U.N. as they ceded land in Palistine that was owned by others to become the new/restored Nation of Israel. I'm not blaming the people of the world as they allowed generations of Palistinians to langusish in refugee camps in which a culture of hatred festered. I'm not blaming the United States for using whoever could be used in the Cold War years to further our goals-- including Sadaam Husein and Osama bin Laden (sp?) I'm not blaming the United States ambassador for giving "a green light" to Sadaam's invasion of Kuwait less than a month before it happened. I'm not blaming the allied forces of the 1990 Gulf War for abiding by their own rules and cultures as they walked and drove near the holy sites of Islaam. And for each of these things, I'm sure we can name corresponding offenses that have provoked every innocent. (Just how did the Hatfield and McCoy's start their feud?) The point is that most of us have very selective memories and most people (including children raised in the Mideast) hear only a part of the story.-------------- When I think about the whole story, I'm extremely saddened. One part of me wants to cry out against total depravity. Another part of me just wants to cry. We are all oppressed, and we are all oppressors. If forgiveness is not practiced, every act of terror or vengence will be "justified" in the perpetrators mind. Jesus offers a new way. In the face of great and institutional hatred, he calls for forgiveness and love. This is a daring and risky venture. The irony is that both the Jews and the Romans conspired together to get him out of the way so they could go back to their hatreds and prejudices. Preach this kind of stuff at your own risk. Be warned. Jesus tried it and it led to the cross. East of Austin
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 09:49:00
I used this Sunday in my sermon, seemed to go well... I was watching C-SPAN this past week, saw Jesse Jackson Jr. (D) Illinois... Most of us will recall as we watched our President after 9-11. Standing on what remained of the World Trade Center, standing there on a pile of rubble he said to those within earshot… “We will not forget about this! You will hear from us again!”… shortly after that… we went to war with Iraq. This week I heard someone (Jackson) talking about the aftermath of the Hurricane Katrina storm. He wanted to see the image again of our President standing on a pile of rubble and shaking his fist in the air and stating… “We will not forget this… you will hear from us again!” Now, I'm not sure I go along with his comparison regarding 9-11 vs. this current natural disaster. And the person went on to say that the damage done by Hurricane Katrina was caused by GOD. And in due time we will see the message God intended in this place. Still, there is a large part of me that has yet another image… and that is that God did NOT cause this any more than God would cause and airplane to crash, a tornado to fall on a community, a heart attack or stroke or even cancer would make a loved one ill, nor would God cause lighting to strike someone dead. You see, we live in a natural world, where these kinds of tragedies are a part of life. God does not -- WILL … things to happen… evil takes place. In the aftermath unspeakable things have happened, looting, fighting, shootings, accelerated because of the hurricane but the tragedy is not the cause of the chaos on the streets of New Orleans. People handle stress in different ways… some yell and scream and become very aggressive, while others turn inward and become very passive..................................................................................... No, what I’d like you to take home with you today… is the image of God’s love for this world. Some call this tragedy, “OUR TSUNAMI”… and in an odd way, it is… for it brings to clearer focus the job we have to do in the world, the JOB we HAVE to do, the job WE have to DO! It need not be the President standing on this new pile of heartache… and the proclamation need not be made on the TV screen, but it is a cry that we all shouted out this past week… “GOD, YOU ARE NOT DONE HEARING FROM US!” And God says, “GOOD… I NEED TO HEAR MORE FROM ALL OF YOU! FOR WHENEVER TWO OR MORE OF YOU ARE GATHERED… in suffering, in hunger, in thirst, in physical pain… I AM THERE IN YOUR MIDST… through jugs of water, blankets of hope, in busses, planes and helicopters… reaching out to lift others up… we are not alone... I AM NOT ALONE… for God is with ME just as surely as GOD IS WITH YOU and people in need.... (you get the idea)
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 09:50:21
wow, that was long... I posted that... pulpitt in nd
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 10:57:31
RevRah - I always heard that my quote about holding a hot coal comes from the Buddha. Senior Cindy
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 12:22:33
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." -- Siddhartha Buddha
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 12:53:00
I heard that a grudge is like a cattle prod held wrong way around, it hurts the one who holds it, not the one it's held against....and, yeah, forgiveness as a theme on 9/11, that's heavy. Good luck getting out of the pulpit alive! tom in TN(USA)
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 13:14:45
Forgive your enemy. It will drive him crazy.
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 13:24:20
Psalm 51:4, "Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight -- That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge." When we sin against another, we are by extension sinning against God as well, harming one of His created persons. So how does this factor into when we withhold forgiveness from others? -- Luther in IA
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 13:24:28
Psalm 51:4, "Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight -- That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge." When we sin against another, we are by extension sinning against God as well, harming one of His created persons. So how does this factor into when we withhold forgiveness from others? -- Luther in IA
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 13:52:07
My mother told me this proverb (I think she said it was from Africa) when I was young: The wrongs that others do to us, we keep in a little pile in our hands, in front of us where we can see it; the wrongs that we do to others, we keep in a big basket strapped to our backs. We cherish that little pile of wrongs done to us... we would rather forget the big basket of wrongs we have committed. Jesus takes them both in forgiveness. Aren't we relieved to have the weight of the basket taken off our backs? Aren't we reluctant to hand over the little pile of wrongs done to us? LF
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 14:03:09
D.R.A.H. is Douglas Hare, whom somebody 'helpfully' quoted from the Interpretation series commentary on Matthew. *Please include proper attribution.* *If you are going to quote, include the source.* Quoting at length and without the author's name, as somebody has chosen to do by posting the Sundays and Seasons commentaries, is disrespectful of the authors. Unless they specifically choose to waive their copyright and have their stuff posted for free, I think it's wrong of the anonymous poster to take it from them. I think brief quotes, with attribution, are okay - rather than this extended cut-and-paste theft of work that is not your own. Hey, I've already got commentaries sitting on my desk - I come here for your thoughts, rather than a stolen rehash. LF
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 14:21:42
Somebody up the page a bit asked what forgiveness is, and maybe that is a clue to one way to hear the parable. Forgiveness is like when somebody *owes* us something, and we decide not worry about it, get along without it, allow the other to know that he or she can be in our presence without the debt filling the space b/w us. Forgiveness is a way for us to be together when keeping score would keep us apart. That is, after all, the only way we can be in the presence of God. Brian in MN
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 14:31:06
LF ~ Isn't this a place where mistakes should be corrected lovingly? Instead of an accusation of theft, wouldn't it have been better to assume it was a mistake and given the poster a gentle reminder? Isn't that what this thread is about? Doesn't extending forgiveness begin with each of us? I would humbly encourage all posters to "clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience" when responding to one another. ~ flameon (Colossians 3:12)
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 15:18:54
flameon: I've had an on-going debate with a friend over the nature mercy vs. the nature of kindness. (I associate forgiveness with the mercy side of the equation.) For me, the issue is justice. Mercy/forgiveness demands an acknowledgement of the offense. Kindness seems to skirt the issue of the offense. Is ignoring an offense the same as forgiving it? East of Austin
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 15:48:46
The material from "Sundays and Seasons" has been posted on this site regularly despite the admonitions of many on this board that it is a violation of copyright. Lately, it seems this has grown to include (what I believe is "Seasons of the Spirit." Why some person or persons insist on this violation of copyright I don't know. If someone really likes what is there, and wants to share it, it would be better to share what it is we like about it, reference the particular author and resource, and then to sign the post. It makes me sad that we have so little respect for one another. Michelle
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 16:22:38
Dear flameon: This [quoting at length, without author permission] is not a mistake. A mistake is something you make once. This is a repeated choice that someone has made, as Michelle has noted. In this regard, forgiveness for the inappropriate use of material is not mine to extend, because I am not the author. LF
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 18:07:01
I searched the web on "forgiveness" and came up with a number of interesting web sites, with various approaches. Here is one: http://www.forgivenessweb.com/default.htm Like love, forgiveness is ambiguous. Not living in utopia, we never quite grasp it; we can only ask, understanding in the manner of small children. GECinMich
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 18:24:43
The Lord teaches us forgiveness without condition because he demonstrated unconditional love for mankind.
Date: 07 Sep 2005
Time: 21:41:26
Is ignoring an offense the same as forgiving it? What a great question,East of Austin! I think it depends on the situation. When someone mispeaks and offends me, should I always point it out and expect an apology so I can offer them forgiveness? Or should I assume it was unintended and offer silent forgiveness so that I can move on and not stew on the comment? Perhaps I recognize that I have a tendency to be overly sensitive! In the case of continual violation of copyright, that requires respectful admonition as to the offense, fully recognizing that I am called to "Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:31) In no way am I objecting to pointing out the offense of copyright violation. I am objecting to the lack of respect that was shown by the words that were used. Back to your question, there is an intriguing article by JollyBlogger entitled "More on Forgiveness" that puts a different spin on the whole topic. Here is an excerpt: "Maybe one of the reasons that forgiveness is so difficult is that we are missing the point and wrestling with the wrong thing. We wrestle with ourselves and our ability to forgive the crimes committed against us when maybe we should be wrestling with the sin within - the sin that causes us to condemn others." ~ flameon http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2005/02/more_on_forgive.html
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 03:52:48
How is this for a title? "489 and Holding!" I think we have our limits... when Jesus meant 70 times 7, times 70 etc. etc.... with what has happened - Katrina........... I'm overwhelmed..................and I'm not even there................. can't imagine how it must be to be there..... to help let alone being displaced.... I'm equally overwhelmed by what JEsus is asking us to do.... another sermon title might be "Overwhelmed While Transformed!" pulpitt in nd
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 05:25:10
I am thinking of forgiveness as an intentional decision to enter the healing process. The process takes however long it takes. Somewhere In that process we experience the forgetting - and we know we are healed. The NIB Commentary indicates that the King taking back his forgiveness may well be a Matthew addition - the Q Material ends with the question of 18:33. VespaRev
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 06:15:12
Personal opinion: I think that ignoring an offense is not dealing with it, therefore not allowing forgiveness to happen. It smolders, it builds up, it is not brought out into the open for honest confrontation. I think ignoring something that truly matters to us is the worst possible way to handle things. It solves nothing, but only builds resentment toward the offender, who may or may not know an offense has been made. Now, if it is something that only irritates, it might be best to hold one's tongue about it, but if it is really hurtful, deal with it honestly and openly. MO13
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 07:16:28
God's forgiveness isnt conditional in the sense that what Jesus means must be that unless we can forgive, we willl not be able to enter into the mystery of God's forgiveness. Failing to forgive blocks grace on OUR part --- unless we say YES in terms of forgiveness, we won't have a clue about how God forgives us, right? Leanne
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 07:20:08
I heard somewhere that some companies are "forgiving' the car notes on houses for those who lost them in Katrina....good example or bad one? I too am overwhelmed Kathleen near Canada
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 09:03:39
Some ideas about the meaning of debts in biblical terms: The difference between the servant’s debt to the king (ten thousand talents), and that owed by his fellow servant (100 denarii), is astronomical! The king’s servant would have been one of those royal satraps responsible for immense properties or incomes. Bondage to royalty was universal in the ancient world. Even wealthy courtiers were in total bondage to royal masters. Jesus pictures this one in danger of being sold, along with his wife and children, and all his belongings. Ten thousand talents was a whole lot! And the king had only begun the reckoning! Here are some references I filtered out of Trench’s “Parables of Our Lord”: In Exodus 38:24, we are told that twenty-nine talents of gold were used in the construction of the tabernacle. In preparation for the temple, David set aside three thousand talents, and the princes five thousand (I Chron29:4-7). The King of Assyria extorted thirty talents of gold from Hezekiah (2Kin 18:14). The ten thousand expresses the impossible weight of our owing to God, as compared to all we are owed. But, as we read, the wicked servant believes that his debt was nothing, compared to the few bucks owed to him. Having promised his Lord more than he could pay, he “went out” and choked his neighbor. Having received salvation, do we “go out” from the Lord’s presence, and forget our cancelled debt? Do we think His forgiveness was nothing more than to be expected (“Me and the Lord, we’re like this…”)? Perhaps we think of it as something He Owed Us~!! GECinMich
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 09:11:17
"An Evening Prayer", a hymn written by C. M. Battersby (music) and Chas. H. Gabriel (lyrics)---- 1) "If I have wounded any soul today, If I have caused one foot to go astray, If I have walked in my own willful way, Dear Lord, forgive. 2) If I have uttered idle words or vain, If I have turned aside for want or pain, Lest I offend some other through the strain, Dear Lord, forgive. 3) If I have been perverse, or hard, or cold, If I have longed for shelter in the fold, When Thou hast given me some fort to hold, Dear Lord, forgive. 4) Forgive the sins I have confessed to Thee, Forgive the secret sins I do not see, O guide me, love me,and my keeper be, Dear Lord, forgive.
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 09:12:37
oopps. that should be "If I have turned away FROM want or pain" in verse 2.
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 09:26:29
One of my favorite illustrations has to do with trapping monkeys in Africa. One of the tribes there make study clay bottles with narrow necks. They tie the bottle to a tree and put a little grain or fruit in the bottom. The monkey smells the food. Looks in and sees the food. Reaches in an grabs the food. In the process of grabbing, a fist is made and the fist can't be withdrawn through the narrow neck. They fuss and chatter and bite and spit as they are gathered by the hunters, but they won't turn loose of the grain. ........... I've used this as an illustration of how we stay attached to our wealth at our own destruction. (Probably would have fit with some people in the face of Katrina.) But it also speaks to how we deal with sin. If we won't turn loose of the sins done against us, we stay in the same place, even though we have been freed to leave in God's grace. East of Austin
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 12:19:36
"I'll forgive, but I won't forget!" is a phrase I've often heard... maybe someone else said that already, sorry, it's a bad week for everyone. Sometimes it's just nice to "type" and vent that way... The older I get the more I forget... too bad the opposite isn't true... the older I get the more I forgive...pulpitt in nd
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 15:39:15
Fr. Foley, a Jesuit at St. Louis U. (on the SLU website regarding this weekends readings) quoted Dag Hammarskold on forgiveness and I found it very illuminating: "Forgiveness breaks the chain of causality because he who forgives you -- out of love -- takes upon himself the consequences of what you hve done. Forgiveness, therefore, always entails a sacrifice. The Price you must pay for your own liberation through another's sacrifice is that you in turn must be willing to liberate in the same way, irrespective of the consequences to yourself." DcDrDan
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 15:40:44
What is sometimes meant by I forgive you: I’m going to forgive you even though you are wrong. I’m going to say it’s ok, because it will heap coals on your head. I’m going to forgive you because I’m strong and you’re uhbiously a weak personality with no self control, morals or decency. I’m going to say I forgive you so God can reward me for putting up with you and eventually punish you for doing wrong. I like how Paul links forgiveness and reconciliation together. Reconciliation being that the relationship is mended as though nothing happened. Sometimes I think that appears to be easier for God than people. Is this saying in effect - Be perfect as God is perfect? Wondering Daniel
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 16:26:22
My favorite quote on forgiveness is; forgivenness is not holy amnesia. It is the draining of pus from the wounds to start the healing process" Doh't know who said it I could be paraphrasing it too...but it is so helpful for me at least the first part peace Pastor Keg
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 18:32:31
Coming out timidly from a long lurk--personally, I think it's easier to forgive than to be forgiven. The shame of my sinfulness is heavy, and the grace received at absolution after a hard confession is overwhelming. My father's brother drowned when he was 14 when the lifeguard wasn't paying attention. Years later, the same lifeguard came through the village in China where my grandmother was living. She heard about it, agonized, and finally sought him out and invited the lifeguard over to dinner. He accepted, she prepared, and he never showed up. To be forgiven is to let go the self-blame, the shame, the horror of what we each are capable of. I've been a chaplain long enough to see the effects of long-term anger on self-destruction, but the effects of long-term self-blame are equally devastating. We blithely go through our general confession every week and it doesn't really cost us anything. Neither does absolution., really. But when we take it seriously--the full accepting of grace is not for sissies. Vicar in Maine
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 20:06:41
I like the coal illustration, yet I can't help but think that we can't focus completely on forgiving simply so we won't "get burned"; do we forgive just so that bitterness doesn't run our lives? That seems like a selfish motive. Can we forgive because that is what God wants us to do and because that is what God does? revjaw
Date: 08 Sep 2005
Time: 20:40:59
This is one of the articles posted on the link on the forum... I'd like your comments on it. Nancy-Wi Forgiveness is a Destination by Rinatta Paries Forgiveness is a destination and not an action. When you tell yourself to forget and forgive some wrong or hurt, you can not. You tell yourself to take the action of forgiveness, yet can not, because forgiveness is not an action. When your boss passes you over for a promotion or a raise, you can not forgive. When your landlord unfairly takes your deposit, you can not forgive. When your significant other hurts you with thoughtless actions, you can not forgive. And you can not forget effectively. Perhaps you can succeed in burying the memories of hurt or anger so that they do not badger you. But you will still be affected. The next time you deal with a boss, a landlord, a significant other, you will expect to be hurt and in that create the hurt. Yet forgive and forget you must, if you are to move forward whole. If you harbor anger and resentment, they become your god. They fill your days with endless inner arguments. Forgiveness is a destination and not an action. While you can not make yourself forgive and forget, you can take steps to get to forgiveness. These steps are seemingly simplistic, inconsequential. Yet as a set of actions they produce indisputable results. If forgiveness is your destination, here are your road markers: 1. Write a letter that you will not send. Express all emotions, all conversations you have had in your head. Write the letter over and over, each time going deeper inside to express your full emotions. 2. Take inventory of your actions. How did you contribute to the situation? What motivated you? How will you respond differently next time at each of the key junctures? 3. Visualize yourself in a conversation with the other person. Tell him/her everything and see him/her listen. Hold back nothing. 4. Create compassion by understanding. Look at the other's motivations. What made his/her actions inevitable? You do not have to approve or agree. Simply understand. 5. Wish him or her well. In the brunt of anger, especially then, wish him or her well. Even artificially done in the beginning, over time this will become genuine. Having taken these steps enough times you will arrive at forgiveness and be free to move forward restored. © Rinatta Paries
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 05:40:18
In his wonderful book, "Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve" Lewis B. Smedes points out that the whole idea of 'forgiving and forgiving' is faulty. While we are capable, through God's grace, of forgiving we are not capable of forgetting. That is, we can not conciously decided to forget something. On the contrary, by trying to forget we end up focusing even more on the offense. Rather, I see forgiveness as a grace-empowered choice. We must choose to forgive those who have wronged us. We say in our hearts (and perhaps to them) " I have chosen to release this debt and no longer nurture it." Then, from time to time as the memory the offense floats to the surface we must remind ourselves of our choice to forgive. In time, we eventually 'dis-arm' the memory. Just some thoughts from 'Tom on the River'
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 05:48:09
I agree with Vicar in Maine in some ways - it is usually harder to forgive ourselves - Harold Kushner has some good thoughts on this in his book How Good do we Have to Be. I think the whole text is about forgiving not just others, but ourselves. We are already forgiven. Sogyal Rinpoche writes in The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying: "forgiveness already exists in the nature of God; it is already there. god has already forgiven you, for God is forgiveness itself. "to err is human, to forgive divine". But can you truly forgive yourself?" Bishop Spong then reminds us that guilt , forgiveness has been the great lever of the church for control. We are called into oneness - a wholeness with God, and must therefore learn to be as forgiving. As an aside, we continue to keep our brothers and sisters affected by Katrina in our prayers (even way up here in Canada, eh). deke of the north
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 05:51:15
Nancy in WI, I don't agree with the "We must forget in order to move on [paraphrase]." Sometimes, we must remember in order to move on, in order to heal. For example, imagine that I am a victim of domestic abuse. Following the advice in the article for me could be deadly. Writing a letter I will not send that enumerates the ways I contribute to the problem merely multiplies the self-blame that keeps me in this situation. And if the abuser finds it during one of the raging searches, it will be used as more ammunition against me. ___________________________________________________ I do agree, however, that forgiveness is not an action, though calling it a destination seems to make it into a place to which I must travel. The way I see it, rather than an action, forgiveness is a passion (that is, passive). It is the place of hurt and anger of which I must let go, leave behind. Leaving that place behind may often be best accomplished with the victim confronting the sinner (with a witness sometimes necessary and wise) in order for healing to continue (maybe it's already begun in the gathering of courage to make the confrontation). ___________________________________________________ This advice the author gives may be useful in situations where confrontation may do more harm than good, or where confrontation is no longer possible because the victim no longer has contact with the one who sinned against that victim, but as general advice, it may not be a healthy solution. ___________________________________________________ Michelle
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 05:58:05
Joseph G. Donders writes in PRAYING AND PREACHING THE SUNDAY GOSPEL... Orbis Books 1990.... about Mt. 18:21-35.... The question was: "How often must I forgive my brother/sister, how often must I forgive those who have wronged me?".......................The answer was: "How often would you, yourself, need forgiveness from him or her?".......................In the story, the answer is strengthened by indication that we owe much more to others than others owe us. There is even a proportion given. It is, according to reliable experts on the economy of that time something like ten million to one..................................The point of the story is not only that we should forgive, but also that we are ABLE to forgive!..................... When we speak abou thte gifts of God or about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we very often think immediately about the light and fireworks at Pentecost: the fire, the noise, the thousands in the street, the storm, the gift of tongues, the gift of foreign languages, prophecy and its interpretation, the laying on of hands, the healings, the evil spirits sprinting away, the streams of baptismal water, and all the conversions................................................................. We overlook that other time when, very calmly (and was God not to be found in the gentle breeze of the OT and not in its storms?) Jesus blew over them and said: "You can forgive, I give you the power to forgive. You can absolve, you can forgive, and you can set free."........................................ If there is one gift of God we need in our days, it is that gift of forgiveness. It is only over the bridges of forgetful forgiveness that humankind - Africns and Europeans, Indians and Chinese, Jews and Arabs, Americans and Russians (dated), exploiters and exploited, plunderers and plundered, old and young, fighting sisters and warring brothers --- can be brought together in Jesus, who died for all in view of a Kingdom that will come to its fullness at the moment we all forgive, forget, and follow him."......................................... Liturgical Cycle A, page 65............pulpitt in nd
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 06:03:21
Thanks Mike in Sunshine for the "contemporary" examples... of forgiveness... pulpitt in nd
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 06:10:16
Incidentally, Donder's titled his piece above... "Restorative Power"... which seems an appropriate title for this first week of Sunday School and all the activities that come now "after the storms of summer"... pulpitt in nd
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 07:05:25
I too was viscerally jarred as I read the three texts appointed for this Sunday -- all having to do with forgiveness -- then look at Sundays date: 9/11. I was once told by my spiritual director that "the most damaging thing for your spiritual health is a justified grievance. " (I don't know if I got it right or and I don't know the original author...maybe someone out there does) Many of the world most chronic conflicts arise from cases in which both sides believe they have justified greivances. Israeli's and Palestinians; Bosnian Muslims and Serbian Christians; Indians and Pakistanis; Americans and Fundamentalist Muslims. The gaps seem impossible to breach. Jesus words at the end seem harsh: "And so will my Father in heaven do to you if you do not forgive." But don't think Jesus is saying "God will getcha," so much as "that's the way it is" or even better "that the way we are made." It is built into us that if we do not forgive we remain enslaved and tortured by our own lack of forgiveness. By not forgiving, we chain ourselves to our grievance for all time. I do know from my personal experience with my own justified grievance (an abusive father) that this is true. The more I hated my father for what he did, the more focused on him I became, the more chained to him I became, and scariest of all the more like him I became. Forgiveness became for me not a luxury but a necessity if I were to be able to free myself from the downward cycle that justifiable hate over a justifiable grievance had placed me on. It was only after I began to let go of my grievance, that I became free to become healthy again. But I also know from my experience that such forgiveness does not happen overnight, but comes with many little decisions to forgive over a lifetime. In the Greek the word for forgiveness literally means "to send away." It is a conscious action to send your justified grievance away from you (perhaps over and over again). It really is the same as when a lender forgives a debtor so that both can move on and start over with a clean slate.
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 07:35:52
Earlier some one brought up the idea of reconciliation as taught by the Apostle Paul. ------------------- 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 (NIV) 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. --------------------- In his book, The Ministry of Reconciliation, Dr. Martin Schrog, whom I had the privilege of working with 30 years ago, writes of forgiveness and reconciliations in this simple statement; “The war is over.” ------------------------- And now that the war between God and me is over, I can also be reconciled to others as God has forgiven me. MGB FL
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 08:14:04
Oops.... I should have included verse 17. “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”----- It is God's grace flowing through us that makes forgiveness attainable.
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 10:15:35
To the poster "viscerally affected"--it's a great image to think of being chained to a justified grievance. Edwin Friedman talks about victim status in this way and how stunting it is to our lives. So it makes me think that maybe forgiveness is more of a journey, as you've said, a series of little decisions on any given day. Forgiving does not mean that what happened is OK, nor that you're my best friend, nor that I trust you. It means that I will not allow what you've done/what's happened to me to define who I am. Little by little, that is. -------- I also really appreciate the point of having to forgive ourselves to be able to receive the grace of forgiveness. It's its own strange kind of pride to hang on to how terrible we are--recovering addicts know this especially, but we all do it. -------- What good stuff this week. Laura in TX
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 10:33:35
To Nancy WI-------------------#4. "Create compassion by understanding. Look at the other's motivations. What made his/her actions inevitable? You do not have to approve or agree. Simply understand." A version of this is the clincher. If you look at the situation as though you were watching something on TV and you know you are watching - meaning that you are not pulled completely into the drama of one side or the other - Then you can with compassion look at what was driving the situation, what was driving the participants to get their needs met, including your part as either the victim or the person doing the wrong thing. Actions may or may not be judged to be 'inevitable' but simply choices/reactions made out of fear, ignorance or whatever. What I have found is that if you do a step like this it will remove the emotional energy from the situation and allow peace to reign. It is possbile to 'forget' or if the situation is recalled there is no emotional energy left in it. Daniel
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 10:33:48
To Nancy WI-------------------#4. "Create compassion by understanding. Look at the other's motivations. What made his/her actions inevitable? You do not have to approve or agree. Simply understand." A version of this is the clincher. If you look at the situation as though you were watching something on TV and you know you are watching - meaning that you are not pulled completely into the drama of one side or the other - Then you can with compassion look at what was driving the situation, what was driving the participants to get their needs met, including your part as either the victim or the person doing the wrong thing. Actions may or may not be judged to be 'inevitable' but simply choices/reactions made out of fear, ignorance or whatever. What I have found is that if you do a step like this it will remove the emotional energy from the situation and allow peace to reign. It is possbile to 'forget' or if the situation is recalled there is no emotional energy left in it. Daniel
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 11:03:42
Can we not forgive overwhelmed public officials for not knowing how to do what they've never had to do before?
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 11:44:04
Regarding Katrina, people can be forgiven but still be held accountable. Someone asked earlier about the place of justice--it's not so much payback as a firm determination not to let such happen again, insofar as we're able to stop it. And it may be that there are unrepentant people in the system that took so long to respond after Katrina, who will not acknowledge their part in whatever it was that happened and didn't happen. But justice means demanding something different from them or letting them go, hopefully without needing to see them suffer per se--that's the forgiveness part. I don't know--feel like I'm rambling now. I'd love to hear where others are on forgiving 70 x 7 combined with horse and rider thrown into the sea. ------- Laura in TX
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 13:13:26
I don't know that actions and responses are inevitable, but they are predictable. Person A does this. Person B does that. Person A responds and the dance goes on. One of the things that Jesus did is that he broke the cycle of predictability. His stories and actions are powerful because what was assumed to be inevitable is displaced by unexpected response and/or initiative. He points to a world/kingdom in which the old cycles are broken and new possibilities emerge. He points to this new reality but we don't get to see it played out-- except in two ways-- (1) the history of this world as his disciples act like his disciples, and (2) the resurrection and its promise. East of Austin
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 13:20:14
East of Austin, that's great! The circle WILL be broken, the chain reaction WILL stop, the tit for tat will cease if we forgive and move on. What a great concept, if only we could actually put it into action. Thanks. KHC
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 15:17:32
I am not sure why, but I feel the urge to share an illustration: I learned much about forgiveness in a most unlikely place, a women's prison. I was on a Kairos team, a ministry that takes Christ's message to those behind bars. I learned that those behind bars can bring Christ's message to us. The topic of the morning was forgivenes. I looked across the table at Pauline,(not her real name) a small frail woman who was now locked away from her children because she shot a man as he attacked her child. I asked her,"What does forgiveness mean to you?" She spoke softly. "I used to be filled with hate, hate for the lawyer, hate for the judge, and most of all, hate for that man for hurting my baby. I hated so much I just wanted to die. I can't die. I gotta get out of here and get back to my kids. I didn't know what else to do, so I started praying, "Lord help me, Lord help me, Lord help me." Over and over, day and night, I prayed. One night in my cell as I prayed, I began to feel that the Lord loves me, no matter who I am or what I have done. The Lord loves me! I felt forgiven. In that moment I opened my clenched fists, quit holding onto hate, and reached up and grabbed hold of the Lord. I am still behind bars but at last I am free." Sorry this is so long...preacher lady
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 18:48:50
who says the government owes us anything but the freedom to persue our dreams expecially the dreams the Father has placed in our hearts. I personally think we have way too much government and way too many taxes and way too many peoeple living off of thosetaxeswho ought to be out working and taking care of themselves and then helping each other. The constitution promises us nothing but that opportunity to persue the dream unhindered : not 3quare meals a day not a roof over our heads not hospitilization, not medicare, not welfare, etc. the embracing of big brother as a friend is snuggling up to a wolf in sheeps clothing and being surprised when he eats u up! Now as for the church and Christ's kingdom, we have waited too long to care for each other to bandage each others hurts to love in spit of ourselves and to live and give sacrificially! When we replace the church the kingdom with the governement, any government to do what Christ commanded us to do, we are in a sorry state of affairs. well that's the way i see it! --tulsa liturgical baptist
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 20:04:18
This resonates with me... maybe it will with you. Nancy-Wi Desmond Tutu in God has a dream pg 56 “Jesus did not wait until those who were nailing him to the Cross had asked for gorgiveness. He was ready, as they drove in the nails, to pray to his Father to forgive them, and he even provided an excuse for what they were doing. If the victim could forgive only when the culprit confessed, then the victim would be locked into the culprit’s whim, locked into victimhood, whatever her own attitude or intention. That would be palpably ( obviously) unjust.” In forgiveness we are declaring our faith in the future of a relationship and in the capacityo f the wrongdoer to change. We are saying here is a chance to a make a new beginning.
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 20:05:46
All under my signature should have been in quotations. Nancy-Wi
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 20:22:07
Michelle- good comments. I never tell anyone to forget. I think the idea of making forgiveness a destination is to remind us that we are always working at it. Nancy-wi
Date: 09 Sep 2005
Time: 20:25:19
May last contribution tonight! I am separating being forgiven from forgiving. I am only going to deal with forgiving. I don't think that this passage says much about being forgiven except in a the sense that we might expect other to be forgiving... Nancy Wi
Date: 10 Sep 2005
Time: 00:02:05
A little late this week. My contribution on Wednesday seems to not have made it trhough. ........(Part one pinched from an Oprah show years ago).............. Forgiveness is giving up the fantasy that the past can be different...........and letting go the expectation that the future will be the same....... Blessings to you all! Luke in Oz
Date: 10 Sep 2005
Time: 06:25:50
If we are transformed in to the likeness of Christ then we will forgive as the lord forgave the slave. The problem is that we seem to want God to transform into the likeness we want and then the Lord had the slave handed over to be tortured until he would pay hin entire debt. . . . Do you wnat to be transformed into the likeness of Christ or God transformed into your likeness? . . . JWS
Date: 10 Sep 2005
Time: 06:32:07
Sorry I’ve come so late to this conversation, but from what I’ve read, seems to me we need to turn back to the text. God does NOT, in this story, ‘forgive and forget’ in fact the king has a very good memory. Yes, he forgave the slave the enormous debt he incurred, however, when the slave goes out and does not do the same to his fellow slave, the king brings him right back and says “DO YOU NOT REMEMBER?” and forgiveness is revoked. The way I see this working in my life, is as if someone borrowed a book and did not return it, I may forgive him the book so that our relationship can continue to grow, but I will remember and be slow to loan him a book in the future. As for the date, I may forgive the 9/11 terrorists so that I might heal and move beyond, but I will have my guard up from now on. mm in oh
Date: 10 Sep 2005
Time: 07:11:37
Forgiveness has nothing to do with condoning the behavior of the person being forgiven. It has nothing to do with selective memory - not remembering what is being forgiven. It is the letting go of our own negative feelings about the event. That part that holds on to anger and grudges and the like. It is turning over to God those things. Some people are easier to love from a distance. a deacon in texas