30 Jan 1999
00:30:36

Dear Friends,

I'm beginning the 50 Day Spiritual Adventure this Sunday with my congregation. The theme: Nurture a Growing Intimacy with the Lord Jesus Christ. Should be quite a challenge! Is anyone else going to try to follow the lectionary with the Adventure themes?

OKBob


01 Feb 1999
14:02:42

It looked like again in the holiest moment Peter was putting his foot in his mouth. Yet, Peter's response is not so foolish. Peter was at least half right, he rightly understood that he had a need to respond to this holy event. We each have different spiritual gifts and each of us need to discern in what way we can best respond to this intersection of heaven and earth; this revelation of holiness here among us. Manzel


01 Feb 1999
21:56:28

This being Valentine's Day, and my believing that the church could really stand to strengthen marriages (everything else tering them apart these days) -- I have decided to do a renewal of wedding vows during the service, for those who so choose. Hence, I am looking for a little romance in the transfiguration -- does anyone see some?

HW in HI


02 Feb 1999
15:27:42

When I was at camp, our director read this text. It had been a great week of camp and few of the campers were looking forward to going home. He related the camp experience that week to the text - that Peter was so filled with the glory of God that he wanted to stay there forever, just like the campers were so filled with the glory and love of God they wanted to stay at camp forever. But the point of the "mountaintop" experience was to go back into the "valley" - as Steven Curtis Chapman sings in his song, "The Mountain". That glory is for all to share in - not to hold onto just for ourselves.

Tigger in ND


02 Feb 1999
16:20:35

Romance in the transfiguration story? Yes, I see many ways of developing this theme. How radical are you willing to be? One concept that is very popular these days is that of "soul mates". Soul mates relate to one another on a much deeper level as if they were tuned into a freequency that others don't hear. Jesus, Moses and Elijah certainly kindred souls who share a deep level of spirituality which includes seeing the world very differently from the popular views of the norm. Likewise this intimate event was a real strengthening of Jesus in preperation for the events ahead in Jerusalem. There are some people with whom you spend time and find your energy drained. Each of us has surely experienced someone whose presence is truly energizing. Blessed are they whose mate is such a person to them. Manzel


02 Feb 1999
16:25:51

Vince Gill has a song, Go rest high on that mountain, which may have a few words worth quoting in the context of the transfiguaration story. Manzel


02 Feb 1999
16:31:46

HW, love can bring a transcendant level of awareness. I Cor. 13 discribes love as a higher level of knowing. Maslow's peak experiences provide several discriptive characteristics that fit both this mountain top experience and love. Manzel


08 Feb 1999
03:46:35

Love is not a feeling. It's a decision. That groundrule of marriage encounter is key to Jesus' command that we must love our enemies and it is part of deciding to return to the valley after the mountaintop experience. We are commanded to love people even if we do not like them.

This message was part of St. Valentine's witness as he brought his jailer to Christ even though he would pay for his generous faith with his own life.

But please remember that victims of domestic violence often feel profound conflict over this command and stay with abusive partners out of those three 4-letter words, love, fear, and hope. Four women a day are killed by their husbands and boyfriends in this country and many more live in a state of terror with their children. Sometimes men are the victims. The domestic violence power-and-control wheel and the local hotline numbers need to be highly visible in every church to send a signal that victims are safe there to talk about their fears. It is not unusual for these controlling personalities to be leaders in their churches.

It is irresponsible to tell victims to leave their abusers without also becoming part of their safety plan and support system. Of the four women killed daily most die when they are trying to leave. Anne in Providence


08 Feb 1999
04:02:09

Trying to convince his Jewish audience that Jesus is the messiah, Matthew again and again refers to Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. At this climactic moment Jesus stands transfigured in God's presence with the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah), but still his work is not complete. Because he is the fulfillment, he and his disciples have work to do off the mountain. Anne in Providence


08 Feb 1999
08:15:48

Powerful stuff already! I, too, feel the call to preach about the importance of what we do when we come down from the mountain.

Maybe it would be helpful if we embraced the mountaintop as a place of re-creation and rest, a place where meet God's love in Christ again and again. We need trips to the mountain to be re-energized. But most of us are not called to stay on the mountain. The mountaintip experience enables and empowers ministry in the valley. Several of MLK, Jr.'s speaches would be, I believe, be good to share this image.

What a great idea to renew wedding vows on this powerful day! Many marriages fall apart because they become disillusioned when they come down from the mountain and the romance begins to fail.

May God's blessings be with you all this week!

ROG in NC


08 Feb 1999
09:13:31

HW in HI, good luck trying to stretch this passage to fit into a wedding vow renewal theme. Watch out for trying to make this text say something that it's not. I believe your idea is a great one. It doesn't necessarily have to come out of the sermon.

I think what's interesting about the Transfiguration is where Jesus goes afterward. At the end of this pericope in Luke, Jesus turns toward Jerusalem. (Luke 9:51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem.)

He comes down from this glory to give His life as a sacrifice. Gee, this sounds a lot like Philippians 2.

Just my 2 shekels worth. John near Pitts.


08 Feb 1999
09:36:22

Anne in Providence,

The statistics are horrific. Your suggestions on domestic abuse help lines being highly visible in our churches are right on. Can you help us with the source on the statistics? And what is the power and control wheel? I haven't heard about that.

Thanks,

Rick in Va (rrice@bcharrispub.com)


08 Feb 1999
09:53:23

plan on using a song called "great things happen when God mixes with Man" it is what I would call a camp song and I plan on teaching my memebers to sing it. "Great and wonderful things happen when God mixes with man." Because that is what has happened when God chose to mix with man. Ann if you would send me your email address I will foward a thing I just received on women being abused. MR in NY strybel@catskill.net


08 Feb 1999
11:38:45

a question - why do you think that Jesus told them not to tell anyone about the vision - the answer I have heard is that Jesus had stuff to do and he didn't want to meet his death prematurely. Any other thoughts on this one. it seems kind of ironic, don't you think, that Jesus tells his close friends not to say anything?

Tom in TO


08 Feb 1999
12:52:46

OKBob -- I'm interested in hearing more about the "Adventure" theme in the next 50 days. What is the lectionary source you refer to? RevKK


08 Feb 1999
13:47:29

Hello All

My name is Lindsey and I am a United Methodist Certified Lay Speaker preaching regularly during a Sunday evening casual/contemporary worship service. A small worship team that includes our Pastor, a clergy member of our congregation, an inspired musician, and myself, leads the service. While preparing for sermons, I have reviewed this site often over the last few weeks and love the different insights I receive here.

Over the last several weeks our sermon topics have included Jesus rising from the waters of his baptism in the Jordan; The words of Isaiah "the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light"; The ascent of the mountain to teach the Beatitudes; Jesus admonition that we are the salt of the earth and the light of world; And now the ascent of a high mountain and the brilliant transfiguration.

I sense a journey up from the waters of baptism, through the wilderness, a revealing of the light to the people, a calling to come and follow and be the light of the world. An ascent ever higher and higher to the top of that high mountain and the bright light of the Glory of the Lord.

Like Peter I would love to stay right there with the congregation on that high mountaintop, basking in the glorious light of our transfigured Lord. But I know our worship service must end. We will sing our songs and pray for one another and eventually I must ask for God's blessing in farewell. We'll shake hands, exchange hugs, greet new faces, and dote over the children. Eventually all of us will pass out the sanctuary doors and into the cold New Jersey night, and Monday morning the "real world" will be waiting.

I feel that the message to carry off the mountain and into the Monday morning world is "This is my Son, the Beloved…. Listen to Him!" Listen to Him all night Sunday night, listen to him all day Monday, and listen to him all week.

Lindsey


08 Feb 1999
14:03:17

Tom in TO,

You ask "why do you think that Jesus told them not to tell anyone about the vision?"

I was reading the Episcopalian Forward Day By Day devotional and the February 1st commentary gives a reason for Jesus request, albeit for a different verse. I think the author's answer is credible.

You can read it at http://38.149.154.199/day-text/dd020199.html

Hope this helps,

Rick in Va


08 Feb 1999
14:17:16

Recently, I was pleasantly surprised at the words used to close a service by a supply priest. Usually, we'll hear something like "Go in peace, to love and serve the Lord." To which we (in the pews) respond "Thanks be to God." (Episcopalian service)

Instead of this more traditional close, this supply priest said "The Liturgey has ended, our service begins..."

It seems to me to highlight what our roles are as we come off the mountain-top experience of worshipping God. We are then to serve Him.

I think some folks get stuck in the mindset that worshipping Him (on Sundays only) IS our service.

Musing and fretting,

Rick in Va


08 Feb 1999
14:56:13

An historical account of an actual theophany?... or Matthew engaging in more "proofing" of Jesus as the Messiah fulfilling Hebrew scriptures?... or an early church summary of its experience of the ascendency and power of Jesus?...can we ever know for sure, and does it matter? We can spend a lot of time defending our view here.

For sure, I must take into account the presence of Moses and Elijah, the greatest leader and greatest prophet of anceint Israel. And I must reckon with what has just transpired in Matt. 16: the Pharisees and Sadducees demand a sign (here's a sign if there ever was one); Peter proclaims Jesus as the Messiah/Christ (and now he gets a looksee); Jesus fortells his death and resurrection (he is raised to the summit here for sure). I have to deal with Matthew's haggiography. But the true message for me isn't there...

Jesus is left alone on the summit. The other greats disappear. Seems to me not so much a proof of divinity, as an illustration of Jesus' central teaching: this summit is for all of us. We don't need prophets and miracle workers to attain access to the Holy One. Intermediaries are no longer necessary (if they ever were); hence, Jesus stands alone in all his humanness and acceptance of God's ways and God's Realm, a "shining" example of what we can attain, unbrokered, for ourseleves, of what God in inestimable love stands ready to give us.

I think we must not deify Jesus on the summit of the mount of transfiguration (here is real danger of idol worship, of Jesus-olatry, which diverts us), but follow our master teacher there and open ourselves in Christ-like humility and expectancy to the embracing, transcendant, transfiguring Spirit. Call it "low Christiology" if you like, yet I remain convinced Jesus did not want himself to be worshipped..."only my Father in Heaven". At the end of CH. 16 Jesus tells the disciples "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Maybe they have just seen it, at the summit...and that "kingdom" is unbrokered, unfettered, unconditional access to the grace and love of God for them, for me and you, for everyone.

Of course, the trick is now, what do we do with it?

Barry in OH


08 Feb 1999
15:51:18

I like your idea of connecting the Transfiguration with love and marriage for Valentine's day! I preach for a group of Hispanic Episcopalians in Albert Lea, MN, and, as family is very important to them, I think that they'd receive it well.

Karl T. Dalager Austin, MN


08 Feb 1999
16:00:06

Greetings: I'm a Navy Chaplain (ELCA)that does a weekly scripture study for my commands in 16 states.

v4-5 Peter made the blunder of putting Christ on the same level as Moses and Elijah. God says "this is my beloved son...listen to him". We should understand clearly that Christ deserves all of our attention as the most holy. We listen to him above all others. Our sermons should strive to help others hear Christ - not us. v6-7 So humbled are Peter, James, and John that they fall on their faces before God in the presence of Christ...and yet Christ personally touches them and helps them up. He'll do the same if we are so humbled before him. Finally those whom others have seen transformed such as Moses or modern accounts of Mother Theresa will note that this transformation results after being close to God and taking him literally at his word - no matter how difficult that it may seem.

This is a powerful passage. God bless...pmclaughlin@cgstl.uscg.mil (Pastor Pat)


08 Feb 1999
16:01:45

On Sunday, St. Valentine’s Day, we will be overcome with hearts of every kind (if we haven’t been already!). A simple word search for "heart or hearts" on my computer NRSV yielded 872 "hits." Of these, about fifty of them are in the four gospels alone. I may take up the subject of "hearts" this week.

Here are some ways to attack from this angle--some "heart attacks" if you will (sorry!):

A story from Ed Hayes in "A Pilgrim’s Almanac" (Forest of Peace Books, 1989):

"Once upon a time when the world was very young, two brothers shared a field and a mill. Each night they divided equally the grain they had ground together during the day. One brother lived alone; the other had a wife and many children. Now the single brother thought to himself, "It really isn’t fair that we divide the grain evenly: I have only myself to care for, and my brother has many mouths to feed. " So each night he secretly took some of his grain to his brother's granary. But the married brother said to himself, "It really isn't fair that we divide the grain evenly: I have children to care for me in my old age, but my brother will have no one." So every night he secretly took some of his grain to his brother's granary. As you may have guessed, both of the brothers found their supply of grain mysteriously replenished each morning. Then one night they finally met each other halfway between the two houses and suddenly realized what had been happening all those years. They em-braced with great affection as the truth dawned upon them. Legend has it that God saw their meeting and proclaimed, "This is a holy place, a place of love. and here it is that my temple shall be built. " And so it was that the first temple was constructed on that site.

Both of the brothers in the parable have the kind of heart we need. Its is not a natural human heart but a heart that loves with the love of God. If we love only with our natural hearts, we will not be able to give without expecting a return, nor will we be able to give back kindness for injury...And to do that, we all need heart transplants--or at least, remodeling."

Hayes also notes that the great Polish composer/pianist Frederic Chopin was born Feb. 13, 1810. When he died in 1849, his body was buried in Paris...but he had requested his heart be buried separately in the wall of the Church of the Holy Cross in Warsaw. "Where your treasure is, there will your heart also be."

Barry in OH


08 Feb 1999
16:09:01

Thanks Rick in Va. for the benediction!!! What a powerful way to take us from the mountain to the world.

Peace,

ROG in NC


08 Feb 1999
17:49:32

Friedman's systems approach to family therapy, particularly the rite of passage in marriage as a part of the life-cycle, may be helpful to connecting the transfiguration to the renewal of the covenant of marriage. (From Generation to Generation). At any rate, in the mountain top experience there is fulfilled an "anamneis" of the sacred stories of the past breaking forth into the present with the "presence" of Moses (Law) and Elijah (Prophets) having communion with Jesus. In an age of "future shock" when it seems all our rites of passage, all our connection with sacred history, has been fragmented and has left us with emptiness/absence, it would be a healing gift of grace to be re-connected in the renewal of our sacred covenant and/or covenants. The essence of new being/becoming, new birth, new creation, is revealed in the transfiguration. A new relation, an actualized relationship, with the past, present, and future, with God, with one's fellows, and with one's self is established in this covenant communion. The eschatological ending of endings has become actualized in history. The searchi/quest is over in that the "Hound of Heaven" has sought us out and found us where we are in our emptiness, lonliness, broken-ness, and/or absence. Moreover, it is not a matter of the individual actively relating him/her self to the past, etc., or others or God, but one finds also that the past, etc., others, God, does the relating in breaking forth in the "I-Thou" of sacred presence. The recapitulation theories of human growth become most relevant in the individual's reliving of the life-history/cycle of mankind or from "generation to generation". The saltatory theory of growth also becomes meaningful as the individual in his/her historical and social context makes a leap of faith from lower forms of dependency to higher rungs of independency. The historical covenant connection becomes the basis or context out of which the future spiritual journey of the individual emerges. PaideiaSCO in swampland LA


08 Feb 1999
18:34:18

"The Mountain" --

I wish to focus on the terrain, the journey. Indeed, this Sunday sets the scene for the Lenten Journey. It is always easy to focus on re-entry into the valley with a glorious vision; yet it is something else to prepare to climb Tabor or Sinai or the mountain of purgatorio of Dante. If we are to behold the resurrection of our Lord we too must climb a mountain toward calvary. What does it look like? We need to take with us the Lenten Disciplines of fasting, almsgiving, prayer, and meditation on God's Word; and we will be refreshed on our journey with the Bread and the Wine. It seem to me that the mountain is simply "the mountain of life" letting go of those things which prevent intimacy with the depth of one's self: Christ.

tom in ga


08 Feb 1999
18:47:15

Does anyone know if there is a 'commentary' on the reasons behind the lectionary selections? I would be curious to know the reasoning behind beginning the Sermon on the Mount for the last two (or four) Sundays in Epiphany, and then suddenly stopping it for the Transfiguration. I was able to connect all the lessons in Epiphany to the manifestation, until last week and the only connection I saw was the "light" which had nothing to do with Christ revealing himself. At least this week, Christ's divinity is revealed.

I understand that the Transfiguration is the bridge between Epiphany and Lent. It shows Christ's divinty, perhaps it helped the three chosen disciples understand what followed (although Peter's actions before dawn bring that theory into question). Still, I find it difficult to preach on this subject every year. Maybe that's because, until recently, UM's left this sort of stuff to the "high" liturgical churches.

On a (much) lighter note: HW, perhaps you can compare the glow of Jesus' face and his white garments to the glow of the bride's face and her white dress. . . I know -- YCKKKKKK!

RevJan


08 Feb 1999
19:39:58

For HW in HI FWIW, Here is some information regarding St. Valentine from http://www.pictureframes.co.uk/pages/saint_valentine.htm

St. Valentine's Story

Let me introduce myself. My name is Valentine. I lived in Rome during the third century. That was long, long ago! At that time, Rome was ruled by an emperor named Claudius. I didn't like Emperor Claudius, and I wasn't the only one! A lot of people shared my feelings.

Claudius wanted to have a big army. He expected men to volunteer to join. Many men just did not want to fight in wars. They did not want to leave their wives and families. As you might have guessed, not many men signed up. This made Claudius furious. So what happened? He had a crazy idea. He thought that if men were not married, they would not mind joining the army. So Claudius decided not to allow any more marriages. Young people thought his new law was cruel. I thought it was preposterous! I certainly wasn't going to support that law!

Did I mention that I was a priest? One of my favorite activities was to marry couples. Even after Emperor Claudius passed his law, I kept on performing marriage ceremonies -- secretly, of course. It was really quite exciting. Imagine a small candlelit room with only the bride and groom and myself. We would whisper the words of the ceremony, listening all the while for the steps of soldiers.

One night, we did hear footsteps. It was scary! Thank goodness the couple I was marrying escaped in time. I was caught. (Not quite as light on my feet as I used to be, I guess.) I was thrown in jail and told that my punishment was death.

I tried to stay cheerful. And do you know what? Wonderful things happened. Many young people came to the jail to visit me. They threw flowers and notes up to my window. They wanted me to know that they, too, believed in love. []

One of these young people was the daughter of the prison guard. Her father allowed her to visit me in the cell. Sometimes we would sit and talk for hours. She helped me to keep my spirits up. She agreed that I did the right thing by ignoring the Emperor and going ahead with the secret marriages. On the day I was to die, I left my friend a little note thanking her for her friendship and loyalty. I signed it, "Love from your Valentine."

I believe that note started the custom of exchanging love messages on Valentine's Day. It was written on the day I died, February 14, 269 A.D. Now, every year on this day, people remember. But most importantly, they think about love and friendship. And when they think of Emperor Claudius, they remember how he tried to stand in the way of love, and they laugh -- because they know that love can't be beaten!

JoyinX@aol.com


08 Feb 1999
20:06:35

Dear Friends,

Ah! Thank you so much for all your help and insights. I mean it -- it is very uplifting to come back and find your fine input. Love is transforming, I think. Our marriages are sacred, and are called to mirror Christ's love for us. We come down from the mountain, but we've seen the promised land -- the beauty our marriages are called to, the symbol of Christ's love they offer to the world.

Why not celebrate human love, as we enter Lent, wherein we will contemplate God's great love for us?

HW in HI


08 Feb 1999
23:21:45

Rev KK, The 50-Day Spiritual Adventure is "50 days of accelerated spritual growth for your entire congregation." It's produced by The Chapel of the Air Ministries and Mainstay Church Resoureces out of Wheaton, IL (800) 224-2735. This year the program is combining with Promise Keepers to develop the theme: "Promises Worth Keeping: Resoving to Live What We Say We Believe." The first promise to "nurture a growing intimacy with the Lord, Jesus Christ." The producers of the 50 Day Adventure, trying to accomodate all congregations, have provided insights into the lectionary as it relates to the 50 Day Adventure theme.

I was just wondering if any DPSers were using the 50 Day Adventure materials in connection with the lectionary texts, a task I have found nigh to impossible.

Peace, OKBob


08 Feb 1999
23:26:32

Tom in TO, One theory on the silence is dramatic license. Matthew writes a tv show divided into 6 segments. each one with the story-teller talking about Jesus' life, then a teaching from Jesus, followed by words like "when Jesus finished saying these things" (7:28, 11:1, 13:53, 19:1, 26:1). Then the cycle starts over again, action/teaching; action/teaching; action/ teaching; etc. He's not writing a history, but a docu-drama to convince Jews Jesus is the messiah. Matthew has a problem: people are still living who knew Peter, James, and John well. Wait a minute! If they saw all that, why didn't they tell us when it happened? Every scriptwriter knows how to solve that problem. Jesus tells them not to tell. Story-tellers love the way secrecy heightens suspense.

Some people find this human approach to understanding scripture undermining to their faith. Others find it profoundly strengthens their faith.


09 Feb 1999
00:09:14

A NEW HEART To us, the heart is primarily a physical organ and sometimes understood metaphorically as the "home" of feelings. But within ancient Jewish s psychology, it had a different meaning. The heart was the self at its deepest center, a level "below" the mind, emotions, and will. It was the ground or source of perception, thought, emotion, and behavior, all of which were subject to it...This notion of the heart as a deep level of the self and as the fundamental determinant of both being and behavior was central to the teaching of Jesus...The mind can believe "correct doctrines" and leave the heart unaffected; a person can follow the practices and observances commanded by conventional wisdom and leave the self at its deepest level untransformed. It is not that what one believes and how one behaves are irrelevant; but the heart is not necessarily affected. Beliefs and behavior can remain "second -hand religion," religion passed on by tradition and socialization. The self can continue to be selfish even while it believes and does the proper things; indeed, conventional wisdom with its rewards and punishments subtly but powerfully encourage it to be selfish. The tension between correctly following tradition and the importance of the inner self was a central theme in the teaching of Jesus. About some of the practitioners of tradition in his day, Jesus said, "This people honors God with their lips, but their heart is far from God. " That is, they said (and to a large extent, did) the right things, but the inner self remained far away. What mattered was what was inside, the heart: "The things which come out of a person (from the heart) are what defile him. " "Cleanse the inside," he said, "and behold everything is clean. " Indeed, Jesus consistently radicalized the Torah by applying it to the inner self rather than simply to behavior. What was needed was a new heart.

-- From Jesus: A New Vision, by Marcus Borg (HarperCollins, 1987, 1991), pp. 107 ff.

For a fuller treatment of this image, e-mail me (revbarryb@aol.com) with "Borg" in the subject header--I scanned pp. 107-115. This is some of the best stuff I’ve seen on Jesus, culture, and the heart of religious faith. If you have access to the book, it is well worth a look-see. It ties in with transfiguration if we can view it as "transformation".


09 Feb 1999
00:26:21

08 FEB 99

I'm not sure I can get there using this text as the primary source, but I like Manzel's creative thought re romance, intimacy, Valentines Day. Indeed, we can be very intimate when those who are (still) different (my wife and I--we're very happily married for almost 9 years--recently took the Myers-Briggs and we exactly opposite! One commentator (the book's at my office--"Interpretation" series, I think) talks about Genesis 2 and human intimacy as "at last I found someone who `corresponds' with me." We find much to understand about God... and so much mystery still (Tom in TO). That's the case with the mountain cloud in Ex. 24 also. Not sure where I'm going yet but I know my people ask: "Why is God so mysterious? Why can't revelations be dramatic visions of Godself, etc.?" Who has some good answers or ideas? Thanks. Peter in CA


09 Feb 1999
12:10:33

Oh, boy. Transfiguration is the bridge between Epiphany and Lent. I think it's great to read this lesson on Valentine's Day, too, because it calls us to enter into the transfiguring power of Christ. Outwardly, the story is about Jesus being "transfigured" in glory on the mountain top. But ultimately it is about OUR being transfigured. "In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea/ with a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me ... " In fact, the experience was useless for the disciples if it didn't have the effect of changing everything for them, if it didn't have the effect of actually changing them. The power of Christ's love, of course, is that it changes us. Marriage does that, too, if it works. It is not stagnant, but transforming--transfiguring.

One other thing I'd add. C.S. Lewis, in his Narnia chronicles, presents a conversation between Aslan (the great lion=Christ) and the children who have magically been transported to the fantastic world of Narnia. They ask Aslan why they have to keep going back to the real world when it is so wonderful to be in Narnia. They don't want to leave the safety of this great, powerful lion who makes all things well. His answer to them is that he, Aslan, has brought them to Narnia for a while not so they could stay there forever, but so that, when they returned to England, their eyes would be tuned to see Aslan there, too. He warned them that on their return to earth Aslan would no longer look like a lion, so they would have to watch carefully to recognize him when he appeared. Isn't that a great parallel to the Transfiguration??? Jesus gave the disciples (we're disciples, too) a glimpse of his glory so that they (we) could be on the lookout for him in the midst of the world down below where their (our) daily business goes on. That's when everything is transfigured, us too. -- Tim in Deep River


09 Feb 1999
13:17:02

HW in HI

I'm not sure there is any romance in The Transfiguration but i think the word's of God really fit into a renewal of wedding vows " This is my beloved Son. with whom I am pleased. Listen to him." Words to base a relationship on. Words that can carry a couple when they can't find words of romance or love for one another.

John in PA


09 Feb 1999
14:24:08

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far this week, but I think that I've decided that I'm going to try to strike directly into Valentine's Day using a different (non-lectionary) text. This text has too much in it to ignore... or for me to try to make it talk about what I think my congregation could really hear right now. I'm still looking for another primary text ... I'm on my way to do the "heart" and "love" keyword searches. Anyone care to join me in continuing conversation about this? I guess I'll jump over to the Discussion Site and see if anyone's interested. God bless you all and "see you" again next week. RevAmy


09 Feb 1999
14:45:03

As an evangelical I'm not usually much of a fan of Borg's work. However, I wanted to express my thanks for the wonderful comments shared on the heart by Dr. Borg. Thanks also for the story of St. Valentine.

In Christ, Dale Proulx


09 Feb 1999
14:49:47

Peter in CA,

Don't worry about being opposites on MBTI...that's generally seen as good! I'm a cetified MBTI trainer, and we're taught that a majority (50-60%) of couples are opposite on at least 2 of the scales; only 9% are alike on at least 3 scales. The old addage "opposites attract" seems to have more than just existential verification!

Barry in OH


09 Feb 1999
18:37:59

Tom in TO,

I think your question, "Why do you think that Jesus told them not to tell anyone about the vision?" is a complex one. I like what the devotion Rick shared with us said, but I have a feeling there is much more than one simple reason. In attempting to find one I thought of, I actually found two, plus another one that supported what you stated.

In support of what you stated, go to Matthew 12:14-16. Just after Jesus healed a man with a withered hand, "...the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him. When Jesus became aware of this, he departed. Many crowds followed him, and he cured all of them, and he ordered them not to make him known."

But Luke gave another reason. Jesus needed time to get away and renew himself so he won't burn out. (An important message for us pastors!) It's in Luke 5:15-16. "But now more than ever the word about Jesus spread abroad; many crowds would gather to hear him and to be cured of their diseases. But he would withdraw to deserted places and pray."

And the last one, that I originally was looking for, is in John. In this case, Jesus knew people were having the wrong idea about his messiahship. In John 6:15, we read: "When Jesus realized that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain by himself."

Like I said. It's seems to be a complex issue. But whatever may be the case, it seems Jesus did not want the vision made know to many because it would have hindered his ministry in some way.

Rick - I agree with you that "some folks get stuck in the mindset that worshipping Him (on Sundays only) IS our service." That's why I like having the Scripture and sermon in the first half of the service and have the pastoral prayer and offering AFTER the sermon. People have told me it makes them uncomfortable because they are used to the sermon being last. But I have it the way I described it because I want the people to begin responding to the Scripture and words of God before they leave the sanctuary. I don't want them to leave just thinking about my sermons as some people have said they would like to do.

Thank you for sharing the benedication. I'm thinking about using it for this Sunday.

Brandon in CA


09 Feb 1999
21:15:34

A number of you have expressed positive thoughts about the benediction I shared. I thought I should give credit to the lady who shared it with our congregation. She's Kathy Vermillion Price from Vienna, Va.

Rick in Va


09 Feb 1999
21:24:11

Remembering last week's Gospel text: "I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it." Gee it sure seems like the Transfiguration is a way that this is addressed again. Here are Moses (Law Giver) and Elijah (Great Prophet) speaking with Jesus. In Christ the Law and the Prophets come to their completions.

Here they are having a private conversation. Ever wonder what people were talking about. Well, in this case Luke adds: "Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem." Luke 9:30,31

Hmm, here are the two great-escape artist from the OT talking to Jesus about His own departure (Exodus) but more importantly, the work He had to do before leaving. It seemed like His time was drawing closer.

John near Pitts.


09 Feb 1999
22:00:35

How do we lift up the idea of Valentine's Day and its message of love without hurting those who are suffering from love gone wrong (divorce or separation)? I'm tempted to stay away from the whole holiday theme just because there are so many broken, painful relationships within my congregations.

Nancy in NY


09 Feb 1999
23:55:02

Greetings:

It has been indicated in a couple of other lists that preaching on the renewal of wedding vows will preach.

I suggest it will preach???

As I ask this question I wonder how it will preach to the young woman who fears for her life as her husband of one and half years comes out of jail after serving time for beating her and holding her captive? I wonder how it will preach to the teenagers who have just discovered their parents are getting a divorce. I wonder how it will preach to the single parent who has spent the last seven years trying to rear the children after the other parent ran off with a new love. (please note the inclusive language)

If we are to preach love on this day, let it be the love of Christ as represented by the cross and the reconcilliation that is in the resurrection and promised in the sacraments.

Perhaps the secret needed to be maintained because Christ knew the price he was to pay to the grace that God was to transcend on that Black yet Good Friday.

A Sidebar Rick in VA:

In my ELCIC congregation the dismissal is cited as follows, "The service is over the worship begins...Go in peace serve the Lord"

Shalom David..Somewhere in Canada out of Newfoundland


10 Feb 1999
01:25:45

John near Pitts...I always figured that Jesus was asking Elijah why he never showed up at Seder dinner since Mary always set a place and poured a cup for him...

But more seriously..I appreciate the concern that has been raised about preaching the love and marriage thing when we have congregation members who are divorced, widowed, etc. All our congregations have members at various stages of grieving over relationships. However, I hope to make the connection that our committed relationships are not 1) limited to those involving sex, 2) limited to two persons, and 3) limited to relationships with humanity. A group of retired women I know are committed to one another as they care for those in their community who can no longer care for themselves. A grandparent I know is committed to her grandchildren, providing stability that they might not otherwise have. A man I know is committed to the care and wellbeing of his father. Two women are committed to each other and the care of their 4 disabled children. As persons of faith, these committed relationships are possible because we are also in a commited relationship with the living Lord. This is a relationship that we don't have to apologize for.

I don't think I'm pushing the scripture too far to look at these relationships - especially the last one - as the transfigurations in our own lives. Our relationships - even with God - are not always mountain-top experiences. We have to come down into the world. One way or another, we have to journey to Jerusalem.

sk in ca


10 Feb 1999
08:07:08

I am biased in this, but having been freshly divorced only a mere few weeks ago, I certainly would not enjoy the pain of having my "safe place" also rub my nose in my failure. Think carefully before you do wedding vow renewal as part of a regular service. I applaud your spirit, though. dsm in Michigan


10 Feb 1999
09:20:43

Some comments have been made about what to do when you come down from the mountain. It is important to note that Jesus commanded the disciples not to tell anyone about what you have seen until after the resurrection. Some of our folks still hold dear to Jesus's instruction about not to tell anyone about what they have experienced on the mountain top. (This works good with my sanctuary in which stair or a ramp have to be ascended to get in the the sactuary/mountain top.) However, each and every Sunday is a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ - Sundays are little Easters. So each and every Sunday we come to the mountain top have a transforming experience and since Jesus has already risen we are to proceed down the mountain and tell everyone about what we have seen, heard, and experienced on the mountain!

What lessons do Peter, James, and John learn from Jesus Transfiguration on the mountain top? How are they transformed?

Kingdom DJ


10 Feb 1999
12:37:55

Jesus spoke pretty powerfully against divorce. I recognize that the culture of the time rendered a woman persona non grata. More than we can imagine. Still, we gloss right over this. Committment is tough in this day and age. Divorce is easy to obtain (admittedly tough on the soul!). For many, leaving the marriage is easier than working on it. For some, leaving the marriage is the only possible answer.

Still, marriage is a sacred covenant. Sacred promise. I ache for those who divorce. Would all of them have divorced if their church had supported them? If the guy thing to do was to stick to it, stay the course? If the woman thing to do was to hang in there and work things out? If the first attractive package to come along were irrelevant to their life together?

These are dicey issues. The last thing I want to do is hurt those who have had to ditch a non-working marriage for whatever reason. But that is no reason not to celebrate the sacrament. To honor the covenant.

I will ask the gentlemen (together) if they will continue to love honor and cherish. Then I will ask the ladies the same. Then I will ask the congregation if they will uphold these couples in their promises. Then we will say a brief prayer. This will happen following the peace and before communion.

Thanks to your input, I will not go there too much in the sermon. Rather I will talk about covenants and committment and relationships.

I really appreciate this discussion, perhaps more than I am conveying.

Mahalo,

HW in HI


10 Feb 1999
15:34:26

Hi, my name is Brian and I'm from Ohio. I've been reading this site for a couple of weeks and have found it very helpful - I'm in a small UM church in an urban setting, anyway that's besides the point.. I'm going to move this in a different direction - I am fascinated by God as cloud. Both the Exodus and Matt. passages use this. However, I've read some commentary on this and am struggling. Earlier the lectionary talked about how God and Christ is light. Now we talk about God as a cloud, a mist -something that is or represents chaos. Is there a sermon here or should I drop the whole thing? Your contribution would be greatly appreciated (oh, I really enjoyed the comments from Borg - thank you:))


10 Feb 1999
15:52:39

Thanks for the challenge to look on the Transfiguration from the context of St. Valentine's Day. I agree with John near Pitts that this could endanger our fair treatment of the text. But I think the effort has provided some fruit. The post peak disillutionment in marriage (ROG in NC), the importance of soul mates (Manzel), and the definition of love as decision (Anne). I do believe Jesus was up on the mountain making a decision about his future.

I also believe, however, that if the Holiday is brought into worship, it must be more than the Hallmark holiday. We have the opportunity to let our scripture and faith TRANSFORM a cultural experience. Let's not settle for letting a commercial enterprise instead simply flavor the practice of our faith, tint our understanding of Scripture. Let's not trade our script in for someone else's.

Toward that end, St. Valentine should not be ignored (even though we don't really know more about him than legend). Also, sk in ca's comments about the variety of covenants of love beyond marriage are helpful. Thanks.

This week, I need to thank Barry in OH for a title, "This Mountain's for You!" If Lent is an invitation to walk with Jesus toward Jerusalem through the baptismal waters of death and resurrection, then I agree it is wrong to simply let the mount of Transfiguration be a pedestal for Jesus alone. It is a sign that God wants to Transfigure the whole world. Our love covenants included.

pHil

(p.s. to Canadian friends: do you know any good stories about people who don't want to come down off mountains? Just teasing!)


10 Feb 1999
17:33:49

There's a partial lyric bouncing around in my 40-something brain, which is no longer nimble enough to recall what song/hymn it comes from:

"...a love that transfigures both you and me"

Can anybody help?

Barry in OH


10 Feb 1999
17:54:43

There's something here about the words we use, and which we don't use. We don't call this event, "the transformation", but rather, "the transfiguration". That is to say, I take it, that the appearance of Jesus changed, but the substance did not. I suppose one can press anything too far, but, as so many are making connections with the joint celebration of Valentine's Day, perhaps one's life is "transformed" by love, an event so strong that it leads to an alteration in appearance. Did Jesus come to a new, more profound understanding of God's love at work in his life as he set his sight toward Jerusalem? There was a classmate of mine who used to keep a sign in her place at Chapel in seminary. It read, "Are you saved? Then look like it!" By which words I take it to mean that we are, perhaps, transfigured as we become transformed in the love of the Lord.

Jim


10 Feb 1999
18:53:31

Hi... great contributions this week; thanks for the help... this has been a week in which I tried to take one day at a time, but they ganged up and attacked (I'm sure you have all been there, but all the help you've given, has started me on my homily.) But two extra words; one for dsm in Michigan...sorry about your divorce... been there, done that (and it hurts like....). And I have been with divorcees during church "celebrations" of marriage/weddings and it is not helpful. I have many single / divorced/ widowed folks in my congregation, so I'm not "going there." (I hope there are other things we can do to sustain our married folks). And a word to Barry in OH... the hymn you are looking for (are you sitting down?) is the Battle Hymn of the Republic (no kidding, look at verse 3.. In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea, with a glory in in bosom that transfigures you and me (#332 in LBW; if that helps. again thanks for all the help this week; gail in berkeley


10 Feb 1999
21:40:07

Peter in CA

My wife and I are opposites on the MBTI. On March 20, we will have been married for 23 years! Someone once said, "Opposites attract." Just like the north and south poles of a magnet.

Danny in Winnsboro, SC


10 Feb 1999
23:10:20

Just an idea....


10 Feb 1999
23:15:33

The more I think about it, the above posted tradition about St. Valentine sounds supicious to me. I did not think that priests were performing marriages as early as the 3rd Century. Can anybody speak to this?

My materials from Liturgical Training Publications says that there were probably to Valentines both martyred around 269. One, obviously on Feb. 14. One could have been a bishop (Terni, Italy) who died protecting his people. The other a priest and physician in Rome known (in legend) for writing notes of "love and encouragement."

-history cop


10 Feb 1999
23:28:56

On the church calendar February 14 now celebrates Sts. Cyril and Methodius. The information at this site is helpful: http://www.erols.com/saintpat/ss/0214.htm Shalom R.J. in ND


10 Feb 1999
23:58:05

Here's something I've used in past Transfiguration Sundays. I find it reassuring that Peter is one of those chosen to accompany Jesus up this mountain. Just before this, Peter receives the harshest rebuke from Jesus that any disciple ever received: "Get out of my sight, Satan!" Yet here is reconciliation, Peter & Jesus. Here's an insight on the "love-Valentine's Day" angle. Love reconciles. Even those that are seperated, divorced etc. I'm not saying that these people will end up back together, but that they can find a sense of peace and be reconcilled to wholeness again as a person. Sometimes grace/love is asking for forgiveness when it is the other person who ought to be doing the asking. Unforgiveness (yikes, is that a word?) is the repast of the victim.

-John near Pitts.

Oh, sk in ca, I loved your response about Elijah & Jesus! :-)


11 Feb 1999
04:38:55

Valentine's Day also may be a good time to talk about the Broken Hearts Club. The glory on the mount was a time of preparation for the death to come. Why did Moses, Elijah, Jesus have broken hearts? Why would Peter, James, and John also be in the Broken Hearts Club and want to pitch their tents together instead of descending to the place where their hearts will only be broken again? God also has a broken heart (Mt 23:37). Even the most satisfied marriages can hold broken hearts--over hurting loved ones, rebellious teenagers, atrocities in Kosovo and Sierra Leone. What's breaking your heart today? When our hearts are broken, we either shut God out or invite God in. Are you letting God bind up your wounds? What is God teaching you about binding up the wounds of others? It will preach. Be blessed! Anne in Providence


11 Feb 1999
08:03:45

Barry in Ohio: "In the beauty of the lilies Christ was borne across the sea with a beauty in his bosom that transfigures you and me..."

Battle Hymn of the Republic, v. 3

Nice words, awful hymn (my opinion) NEOW in Maine


11 Feb 1999
08:05:51

Barry in Ohio: "In the beauty of the lilies Christ was borne across the sea with a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me..."

Battle Hymn of the Republic, v. 3

Sorry: "glory" in his bosom not "beauty". v. 4 not v. 3

NEOW in Maine


11 Feb 1999
09:08:08

Tom in TO: Barclay has a great line in the Daily Study Series: "Before men"(women, too)"could preach Christ, they must know who and what Christ was; and until the cross, they had to be silent and to learn." Also note they had to wait until the Holy Spirit empowered them to preach Jesus as Messiah. revup


11 Feb 1999
09:56:26

I once did a sermon on the passage called, "Transfigured, Transformed and Transfused.) The gist was we need to have Jesus transfigured, and see Him not as a man who lived 2000 years ago, but as someone ALIVE in our hearts. We must then be transformed into better people than we were when we met Jesus. Lastly, we must be trandfused with the power of the Holy Spirit working through us. Regarding omitting love and renewal of one's vows, I will never forget a woman who came to me with tears in her eyes in a desperate condition. (I was the neighboring pastor.) She asked, "Why is it they keep sending women pastors to me who are so angry at men that they cannot help me, as a happily married wife?" As a divorced and remarried pastor myself, I and we cannot allow our personal bias to deprive those who are happily married. Yes, we must be sensitive, but not discriminatory against some who did not share our experience. revup


11 Feb 1999
10:07:36

Dear NEOW in Maine, forgive me if I say that the Battle Hymn of the Republic is one of my favorites, for several reasons. First, all boys love to sing it, knowing full well that it is an anti-slavery song used in the Civil War. They are thus tied to an anchor of justice at an age when justice and race issues are not the first things on their minds. Second, it was written by a woman, Julia Ward Howe, who was herself not only an agent of social change, but clearly a woman who would not be constrained by the conventions of gender during the mid nineteenth century. Finally, the tune itself was one that she heard first at a camp meeting of Union soldiers, who were singing it with the words to "John Brown's Body," a song about a true hero who died fighting racial oppression, but alas a song with grisly words. (Even today, this man receives short shrift in our histories, unless we look into Black history classes, where he is greatly valued as the one White who was willing to fight slavery). Thus Julia Ward Howe took a folk-song and "transfigured" it into a hymn that simply will not die. Methodists use it for Emancipation Day and Martin Luther King Jr. Day. The martial attitute of the text offends many of my feminist sisters in Christ, but I beg them to forgive their long dead Christian brothers who sang it before going into battle, as indeed I hope they will forgive the boys in our churches who call out for it to be sung when it is the congregation's choice. These young men sit in the two front pews of my own church, and I applaud their willingness to sing about creating justice. Now you must forgive my own passion for a hymn that causes you discomfort,

Rene in Bluff Point


11 Feb 1999
10:43:22

"The martial attitute of the text offends many of my feminist sisters in Christ, but I beg them to forgive their long dead Christian brothers who sang it before going into battle, as indeed I hope they will forgive the boys in our churches who call out for it to be sung when it is the congregation's choice."

Umm... Can someone please help me (over on the discussion site) understand what our 'feminist sisters' in Christ would be offended at in the Battle Hymn?

Me-thinks if we spent the time seeking foregivenes from our feminist sisters for every item they seem to be offended about, we would be in that 'state' of seeking until Christ returns, maybe even beyond since some are offended by His return...

I'd rather seek His forgiveness... a seeking that would bear much better fruit...

Rick in Va


11 Feb 1999
10:47:28

Re: soul mates - If you use this term please qualify it. Most folks who use it believe that God (or the stars) ordained ONE person and only ONE particular person to be their mate. Once a man (with a teenage son, no less) came who wanted me to affirm his conviction that God was telling him to leave his wife and take up with a co-worker who --God was telling him-- was his "soul-mate." I told him that I believed that God is our only "soul-mate." Anyway - I would hate to reinforce what I think is a dangerous notion.


11 Feb 1999
10:56:43

RE: soul mates - I went to edit the last bit and it submitted - oh, well.

Re: Valentine's Day and Transfiguration - It is a stretch, but ... 1) Eugene Peterson in Five Smooth Stones says that when people come to him to talk about their sex lives he asks them about their prayer lives - It has to do with a capacity for intimacy. It also, I think, has to do with God as the primary "lover of our soul" out of which reality all other loves are a reflection. 2) There is something of a mountaintop experience in lots of relationships - not only between lovers but also between parent-child, friends, etc. And those experiences are the intimate moments where we see the other in their uniqueness. But - in all relationships, we have to go down the mountain and live out our love within the messiness of everyday life. The question, perhaps, how do the mountaintop experiences inform our daily relationships - with God, with our spouse, parent, child, friend, neighbor? AJM in PA


11 Feb 1999
11:21:45

revup: Thanks for the line from Barclay about not being able to preach until really understanding Christ. On the element of suspense, I'm going to open with the story about Geraldo Rivera and the safes on the Andrea Doria. If you can remember, the wreck had been discovered, and supposedly there were at least a couple of safes filled with diamonds & jewels. An expedition was mounted, the safes were brought up, and a live TV special was planned when the safes would be opened. With all the suspense, when the safes were opened there was nothing but a few hundred dollars in soggy paper money. He's never lived this one down after about ten years. In relation to the Transfiguration, we find in a sense that what God has done here for the disciples is to show them the last pages of the novel without also showing them what is in-between. They see what the culmination is but because they don't know what happens in-between they don't understand the ending. The element of suspense is in their living out their ministries, always waiting for the time when they really understand. There is the suspense.

I haven't worked this out yet so my thinking may not be as clear as it can be. Oh, in ref. to the Valentine's Day theme, I try to avoid making such connections. The text (from where I stand) has nothing to do with this theme, and for me it would be stretching the text too far. There's enough meat here without trying to fit something else on the plate. Enjoy! NEOW in Maine


11 Feb 1999
12:55:15

As often happens, I plan to go in a little different direction with this text. Although we certainly need to affirm Christian marriage, and the Valentine's Day connection will be evident in the church I serve (special music will be songs about love), I'm going to emphasize the vertical as well as the horizontal dimension. It's impossible to consider the Transfiguration without confronting the fact that the numinous occasionally breaks into our everyday lives. We're marked forever by such experiences, even if at the time they happen, we fall to the ground and are overcome by fear (v. 6). In Kathleen Norris's book Amazing Grace, she tells about the poet Barton Sutter, son of a Lutheran pastor, who found a blessing in "his father's vestments, which taught him the power of magic and transformation" (p. 80).

In our low-church Disciples congregation I rarely wear vestments, saving them only for special occasions such as weddings. But when I do, I'm always amazed by the way they transform an ordinary guy into someone who bears the symbols of ordination and the authority that is God's. Evidently Barton Sutter was impressed by this same transformation in his father.

The Transfiguration reminds us that ordinariness often is a cloak for the extraordinary. When the extraordinary is revealed, we must, like the disciples, fall down in worship and awe.

C. S. Lewis wrote, "It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship. . . . There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilization--these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit. . . . Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses . . . for in him also Christ . . . glory Himself, is truly hidden" (The Weight of Glory, pp. 14, 15).

Bill in SoMD


11 Feb 1999
12:56:20

11 FEB 99

Barry in OH and Danny in SC, thanks for the affirmation that MBTI "opposites" are not destined for failure...we suspected our complimentarity was a great boon. We even had them play "Opposite's Attract" at the reception. You found the name of the hymn, Barry; we sang it just last Sunday for "Scout's Sunday". My love for the history and hymn wins over my offense at the association with war (hopefully that offends Christian men and women, feminists or not). Still wrestling with Sunday's sermon, but like the textual and present power of our radical tranfiguration verse the thought that even though CHris'ts appearance changed, it was not as though Jesus (God) underwent any such metamorphosis. In "Abide with me" we get the proposition: "Change and decay in all around I see; `O thou who changest not, abide with me.'" We might face the matter of change (this text is surely about that) and our trust that while God remains consistently loving, always willing the adoption of all people as God's children, God will still use experience and events to communicate this Gospel. Peter in CA


11 Feb 1999
13:03:40

Thanks folks, for the responses to my "verse hunt!" I truly appreciate it...now I gotta figure out how to work it in!

Barry in OH

(P.S. The "Battle Hymn" is included even in the UCC hymnal, '72 ed., #61, much to the surpise of some, I'm sure!)


11 Feb 1999
13:16:01

Here's something else to think about. During the Exodus from Egypt, Moses goes up the mountain to meet God. (God from the top-down) At the transfiguration it is Jesus (God) who climbs the mountain to meet Moses. Is this not the mystery of the Incarnation?

To quote one of my favorite stories, Moses Swope, by Walter Wangerin, Jr.: "Moses stood up on the river bank and began to grin. 'Jesus?'

"'Now don't you be trying the water-walkin' trick,' said Jesus. 'I be catchin' one too many no-counts from the drink. Go on; stay put. The way it is, is: I come to you.' And he walked to shore." page 113 Ragman.

Imagine a God who has to climb up to reach us?

John near Pitts.


11 Feb 1999
14:35:59

Is anyone else struck by the "Kafka-esque" nature of this passage? Instead of Gregor waking up one morning to the realization that he is nothing more than a bug in this life, Peter one day sees Jesus for who he really is -- the glorifed Son of God!

Nick


11 Feb 1999
14:43:36

For those looking to add a touch of humor to their sermon this Sunday, the following was posted on Eculaugh.

Top Ten Ways Peter Knew It Was Moses And Elijah Talking With Jesus At The Transfiguration

10. Heaven is the only place people use those GUEST name tags.

9. They looked just like their pictures on Jesus' web site: WWJD.

8. Moses kept parting Peter's hair.

7. Bright cloud of smoke comes from Elijah's leaving his firey chariot running.

6. Moses' recommendation of smiting the Romans with a "plague of pasta" gives him away.

5. Elijah makes sarcastic remarks about the quality of the disciples' camp fire.

4. Moses keeps wandering off.

3. Elijah is wearing his trademark "Here Comes TROUBLE" t-shirt and keeps shushing everyone so he can hear the silence.

2. Moses complains Letterman never paid him a dime fo rhis Top Ten idea.

1. Elijah keeps asking if there is any cake left.

Nick


11 Feb 1999
16:06:05

It has dawned on me how much we have domesticated the Christ - we dare to interpret, to explain (away) the mystery which the apostles experienced! Do we not know before whom we bow? How easy it is for us to look for illustrations, ideas about, comparative thoughts, my goodness we all learned so well in seminary, and now we find ourselves watering down the mystery for ourselves and for our people. It seems to me that the only correct response this Sunday is silence ...

but I don't think it is possible for any of us to be silent.

tom in ga


11 Feb 1999
16:21:10

Afew random thoughts.... In all three accounts of the transfiguration (Mt, Mk, Lk), reference is made to how white Jesus’ clothes are--they are “dazzling white” (Mt, Lk) “such as no one on earth could bleach them” (Mk). His face even shone with the brightness of the sun. How strange for the disciples to see Jesus that way. Jesus the son of a carpenter who spent his growing up years dirty and sweaty, covered in sawdust and sap. Jesus who hung out with smelly fishermen, put spit and mud on the eyes of the blind, and who spent a lot of time sitting on mountains and hills in the hot sun healing people and teaching them for days on end. This was truly a transfiguration, a radical change in Jesus’ appearance to the disciples. Perhaps the transfiguration is meant to reconcile Jesus the man and Jesus the divine in the minds of the disciples--healer of lepers and friend of Moses, the one who talked to prostitutes now talked to the great prophet Elijah. The transfiguration showed how God can be in his glory, remembering the greatness of holy history and yet accessible, knowable, and personal. The last time God spoke his approval of Jesus, called him his beloved son, was at his baptism before Jesus called the disciples. This is the first time they witness God’s confirmation of who Jesus is. They have been watching him peform miracles of all sorts, but when it comes to understanding his teahing, they just don’t get it yet. So God commands them, “Listen to him!” “You know who he is because I have told you. You know what he is capable of because you have seen the miracles. Now listen to him that you might understand what this will mean for you and for the world.”

Kel


11 Feb 1999
16:30:09

13. IKONS, by John of Euchaita

c) The Transfiguration

Tremble, spectator, at the vision won thee! Stand afar off, look downward from the height, Lest Christ too nearly seen should lighten on thee, And from thy fleshly eyeballs strike the sight, As Paul fell ruined by that glory white! Lo, the disciples prostrate, each apart, Each impotent to bear the lamping light! And all that Moses and Elias might, The darkness caught the grace upon her heart And gave them strength for! Thou, if evermore A god-voice pierce thy dark,--rejoice, adore!


11 Feb 1999
16:35:23

11 FEB 99

Barry in OH! Can you give me a source for the Chopin illustration, his heart buried in the wall of the church in Warsaw? I've actually looked ahead to Ash Wednesday and notice that the Gospel pericope includes the reference form Mt. 6:21: For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. You can reply to me direct at pkne@juno.com


11 Feb 1999
21:55:11

Misc. thoughts ...

I vote for including vs. 10-13,where the pericope really ends. The conversation about Elijah and John the Baptist is a bit confusing, but v. 12 is critically important to understanding v.9, "tell no one..." See Malachi 4 for some specific Moses & Elijah significance.

Re: why "tell no one"? -- Matthew isn't unlike Mark in the disciples' "not getting it." Jesus has been trying to teach them about the cost of discipleship, and they are still clueless. They absolutely do not understand the nature of his messiahship. Now on the mountain, they have no doubt that he is Messiah -- but they still don't understand what kind of messiah. If they go blabbering about this glory stuff, how will he ever get his real point across? He doesn't want them to tell because they don't know what the heck they're talking about!!

From lectionary study group: "Transfiguration = seeing Jesus as he really is." Witnessing transfiguration doesn't transform us -- it scares us to death, baffles us. Totally beyond our understanding... "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad." Story re: boy afraid at night, mom reassures him with promises of God's presence, etc. She turns out light and leaves. Boy prays: "God, I know you're there 'cause my Mom told me so, but please don't move 'cause if you do, it'll scare me to death."

I don't know what to do with all these tidbits, but perhaps they'll be helpful for someone out there.

Blessings, Kay


11 Feb 1999
23:01:28

All the way back to Rick in Virginia. I appreciated your dismissal, but I believe it is a false dichotomy. Sometimes our worship is our service and our service is our worship. The two become one in a life dedicated to Christ. Anyway, appreciate the good thoughts of all even though I do not have to preach this Sunday.

Don in NC


11 Feb 1999
23:43:32

Anybody else note how in the Gospels whenever there is a "mountain top" experience, Sinai, Horeb, Transfiguration, Ascension, nobody gets to stay up there? It's back down to work and service. (Without putting the mountaintop away. R.J. in ND


12 Feb 1999
11:45:10

RE: mountain tops

The mountain tops were the sites of pagan shrines and altars. So the psalm (121) says "I look to the hills; from where is my help? (implied: not from the hills but) my help comes from the Lord (not those empty shrines but) the maker of heaven and earth."

see also psalm 48: Great is the Lord and highly to be praised; in the city of our God is his holy hill.

Preacherlady


12 Feb 1999
12:08:37

Thanks for the CS Lewis references. Looking for Jesus in the faces of your neighbors is the transformation we seek.

We ALL should be seeking the kind of relationship with Jesus, and by extension, his body on earth, that says "with all that I am, and all that I have, I honor you..." (from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, p.427, in the Marriage service.)

You know, I think that there was a very good reason why in grade school our teachers insisted that we put a valentine card in EVERYONE'S box. Can you remember the pain and embarrassment of the child who got just a few, or worse, all 32 are hippos or elephants?

Preacherlady


12 Feb 1999
12:32:35

Dear friends,

Some thoughts from some of my readings on this text that I haven't seen anywhere yet - though perhaps alluded to in some way by some of you. Maybe they can help, too.

1) Ideas from Robert Smith in the New Proclamation Series: The Transfiguration follows Peter's confession "You are the Christ" Jesus' response: "You are Peter," Jesus' teaching: "The son of man must suffer" Peter's response: "God forbid." Thus: "The transfiguration thus shows that 'the way of the cross' is glorious." Jesus is not only going to be glorious (i.e. after the crucifixion) but is glorious now - if we have the eyes to see it. So, too, the way of the cross is glorious for us all - if we have the eyes to see it. (Haven't we, too, seen or experienced the presence of God in some act of selflessness?) God gives Peter, James and John, a brief glimpse of that "glory," now.

2) A thought from Emphasis/Jan. Feb.: Moses and Elijah were the only two God ever spoke to on the mountain before. Thus is it fitting that they speak to Jesus on the Mt., too.

3) From Marianne Micks, Proclamation 3: p. 64, "Occasionally in our lives some of us have profound spiritual experiences which tilt the mundane universe for us, which transfigure it for us, which help us to see everything with new eyes. Such experiences do not last but they leave us changed.

So it is with the discipels who witnessed the transfiguration. For a few moments they saw the whole world changed with God's grandeur. The granduer faded, but Jesus did not leave them. ... The Gospel tells us to look at Jesus and listen to him. When we do, we see the one who is the Light of the world and hear him sending us on a mission to all people far and near."

4) If the words "This is my Son" comes from Ps. 2:7, (a royal Psalm) God is saying in Jesus, God is setting his new "king" on the Holy Mountain. So, too, it is on the mountain (tradition say the same mountain) on which Abraham was about to sacrifice his son. The difference being God will not spare his son as he spared Abraham's. Therefore, here God introduces Jesus as the "Son of God" - as the one who would be sacrificed - confirming Jesus' teaching in 16:21 that he woudl suffer and die.

Grace and Peace, Jerry in MN


12 Feb 1999
13:41:48

"the liturgy has ended our service begins" is not a bad way to dismiss the folk

however, it is no Benediction -- there is no pronouncement of God's blessings

we do ourselves a dis-service to call our worship as service -- when our service "serving" comes from what we do in response to God's acts of love.

I'm caught in this text at the point where Jesus touches the disciples on the ground afraid not so much what he says -- get up and do not be afraid -- we have that so often but they look up and they see only Jesus

what if when we looked we saw only Jesus -- even if it is after being scarred half to death

Peace through Christ! fred in culpeper


12 Feb 1999
13:42:13

"the liturgy has ended our service begins" is not a bad way to dismiss the folk

however, it is no Benediction -- there is no pronouncement of God's blessings

we do ourselves a dis-service to call our worship as service -- when our service "serving" comes from what we do in response to God's acts of love.

I'm caught in this text at the point where Jesus touches the disciples on the ground afraid not so much what he says -- get up and do not be afraid -- we have that so often but they look up and they see only Jesus

what if when we looked we saw only Jesus -- even if it is after being scarred half to death

Peace through Christ! fred in culpeper


12 Feb 1999
13:42:28

"the liturgy has ended our service begins" is not a bad way to dismiss the folk

however, it is no Benediction -- there is no pronouncement of God's blessings

we do ourselves a dis-service to call our worship as service -- when our service "serving" comes from what we do in response to God's acts of love.

I'm caught in this text at the point where Jesus touches the disciples on the ground afraid not so much what he says -- get up and do not be afraid -- we have that so often but they look up and they see only Jesus

what if when we looked we saw only Jesus -- even if it is after being scarred half to death

Peace through Christ! fred in culpeper


12 Feb 1999
17:24:24

I've only recently discovered this site, but know I will return again and again. I deeply appreciate not only the contributions, but the graciousness of the contributors. Thank you!

That being said, may I add another opinion on the side of NOT renewing marriage vows in the regularly scheduled worship service? 19 years ago I fled for my life with two tiny children from an abusive husband. I returned to my home church feeling like a failure, and as I looked around, all I saw was couples and families, and I felt like an outcast and failure. I was there 2 years before I began to realize that I was not "the only one." But during the 13 years I was single, I frequently felt "left out" and invisible as well-meaning pastors focused on support of families and married couples, while singles were left to fend for themselves. I have been happily remarried for 6 years now, and pastoring a congregation for 7. My response to those wishing a reaffirmation of vows is to offer a separate service, at another time, where all the community is invited but which does not replace regular worship. Those who are single, divorced, widowed, or otherwise alone (and there are many) can then choose whether to attend without giving up worship, or being blind-sided. I know it may seem like a "little thing," but to those who are alone, it is like salt on a wound; like more is being given to those who already "have it all." I would like to mention that reaffirmation of vows for a struggling couple can be equally painful. And these folks won't necessarily tell you that you hurt them, they will often just slip away.

Blessings, friends...JBR in NJ


12 Feb 1999
17:53:30

In the ancient "liturgical" (non-reformed) churches there is a part of the liturgy called "the dismissal." It always consisted of a blessing AND a formal dismissal (hence, in the West, the nickname "Missa" or "Mass.") I often say (1) "May almighty God bless you, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Following this blessing I say something like: (2) "The Liturgy is ended; you are sent out as apostles of Christ."


12 Feb 1999
18:03:34

Thanks JBR -- it is good to hear your "voice"!

I have been giving a lot of thought to the things that can happen in church that can hurt others. My thinking is that it is important to know the potential is there and be sensitive, there may even be times when it is best to toss a concept out completely.

So many of us carry pain, that if in church we tried to eliminate everything that might be taken differently by some, we would do very little. I've been thinking about the first child I had, who died at birth, full term. For a year I almost couldn't look at a baby. And I am not alone in this loss. So, should we not baptize babies? Okay, maybe it's different. But maybe not. When a couple with empty arms observes a celebration bringing into God's church someone else's baby, it can hurt. Baptism is a sacrament in my denom. Also marriage.

Yesterday I spoke with a widow who is still angry that God didn't heal her ailing husband. Should I now not talk about healing, and not celebrate when it does happen? Healing is a sacrament, also.

Examples abound, I am betting, of times when the celebration of sacraments can hit a raw nerve. Being insensitive clods is not a way of serving God well, but if we don't celebrate God in our midst, what are we doing? And why?

Perhaps I am just defensive....

HW in HI


12 Feb 1999
19:07:33

HW

Perhaps you are being defensive, but to my mind, that is ok. Perhaps other posters who've wondered at the appropriateness of your plans for Sunday were also being defensive, and that is ok. You probably can guess what my personal reaction was to your plans. But I found myself celebrating your gift of ministry, and respecting the call of God on your life, and the direction that God has told you to take your service. There is a verse from Matthew that has meant much to me since childhood., "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and God's righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33). This verse has always assured me that God would supply all our needs, even the emotional ones. Often when we lose a love, or loved one, our anger makes us selfish, and self-centered.. But that is ok, because on the other side of our anger, and sadness comes understanding. In one of David Augsburger's books, either "Caring enough to Confront." or Caring enough to forgive," He suggest that marriages can't go on, until the dead part of the relationship one is ended. He seems to suggesting that all relationships go through times of divorce, in order to begin the new relationship, even as the marriage stays intact. So, do your valentine's marriage service HW. I'm struck by the fact that in both the Exodus passage, and this one, the incidents happen on the mountains. I think there is significance here. It has more to do with God's presence than height, (and even ascending and descending.) It is a place of nurture, and a place where God can help us move beyond our present spiritual state to the next. To me, the mountains represent "the shiny face of God (my sermon title)

Shalom

Pasthersyl


12 Feb 1999
21:07:07

Hi, HW in HI...

Thank you for your welcome, and I do not to mean to cause you pain with my questions, only to make you aware. I confess there have times when I have kicked myself after I've done something, thinking "if only I'd known!" As someone else wrote, God may be calling you to this in your situation -- only you can know that. But I hope you don't mind if I play the devil's advocate in this when I suggest that worshippers expect baptisms, because this is a sacrament commonly celebrated as part of regular worship. I agree it can cause pain, not only to those who have lost a child, but also those who can't have children at all. I also agree that almost everyting we do has the potential to cause pain to someone, somewhere. Perhaps part of it is a question of balance. Do you provide comparable support in worship to those who are single in your congregation, using liturgy to acknowledge and support them? I guess my concern in the worship context is the singling out of some, as if to suggest one is a more honorable or priviledged state. Does that make sense? And yet we might look at Paul's comments about remaining single being a preferred state. How often do we affirm that?

Anyhow, I do not wish to cause you to be defensive -- only ask questions which might help us all think about how we may unknowingly "favor" some in our midst, while causing pain to others.

God be with you, friends.

JBR in NJ


12 Feb 1999
21:20:04

Clutter. Always the clutter, the clutter and dirty floors. No matter how much we seemed to clean, it never did any good. Oh, how I wished that for just one day, I might enter the building and find something other than the clutter. Yet no matter how I wished, nothing would change. Each day would be the same as the day before, discarded clothing on the floor, broken pieces of furniture sitting in the hallways, furniture which could not even be given away at weekend yard sales, furniture which somehow always found it's way to our building. Then, of course, there was always the odd bicycle with brown flecks of mud still stuck to the spokes, and the books, great piles of books which no matter how often they were straightened, would always end up in great jumbled heaps.

And for those who served in this place, it was not much better. Each office was piled high with too many files representing too many lives. Their calendars were filled with too many appointments representing too many tragedies. Their hours were filled with too many pleas for help representing too many unfulfilled needs, too many used-up dreams, too many people on the edge - just one small crisis from the street, the street which represented death. Just one day, that's all I asked, just one day to enter the building and not be met with the massive clutter.

But then, why should the building look any different from the hundreds of folks who entered this place? No question about it, their lives were just as broken as this old building - cluttered with the sins of a society which viewed them as worthless, smeared with the grime of poverty, stained by the ugliness of never having enough … enough of anything, except heartache, hurt, and hopelessness. Why should it look any different?

Maybe that's why they came. This was their place. This was where they might find a glimmer of hope, a bit of food, perhaps a worn jacket or even on the rare occasion, a new skirt. Maybe that is why he came, always that possibility that he might find something of worth, some cast away item that he could use, cast away items for cast away people. Clutter.

His name was Jimmy. One could always tell he was in the building, for his broken voice could be clearly heard, croaking loudly, the course sound moving from one room to the next. Even from the reasonably protected sanctuary of my upper floor office, I could still hear him. Croak, croak, crooooaaakkk! His broken voice and his damaged mind. Whether his painful condition stemmed from an accident of birth, an early childhood fever, or maybe that God just got busy on other things and meant to get back to him, but never did … I didn't know. All I knew was that when Jimmy was around, one could never, never ignore him. "Croak, croak!" Clutter.

And for whatever reason, perhaps I was just sick of pushing scraps of paper from one corner of the desk to the other, or perhaps it was guilt, for whatever reason I went downstairs to see Jimmy, to see what he and his servant care-taker were getting today. Was it a sweater or maybe some used toy that had caught his child-like middle-aged attention? Jimmy would always almost burst with excitement with some new-used toy.

When I arrived down-stairs, his care-taker was still in deep conversation with our medical social-worker, birds of a feather … angels … and Jimmy's croaking was now coming from our dirty clay parking lot. Clutter.

I went out to greet him and found him sitting happily in the passenger seat of the big red pickup, waiting happily and impatiently for his care-taker. "Ready to Go! Jimmy's Ready to Go --- CrrrroOOOOAAAKK!" I placed my hand through the open window and patted him on the shoulder, good old Jimmy. He turned his face toward mine and he looked - and he looked. He gazed so deeply into my eyes that I thought I would drown in that look. And we knew, for one moment we knew. We knew life and we knew one another. We knew the mystical place of the Holy which resided in the depths of these two broken lives. We knew the mystery of God. We knew the mystical incarnation of Christ. We knew.

Suddenly, that place, the place of dirt, the place of broken furniture, the place of clutter, disappeared and in it's place was a mountain, surrounded in the bright glow of heaven, with three beautiful figures standing on it's summit, saturated with the voice of God. And just as suddenly, they were gone.

Jimmy's care-taker arrived and they departed, cautiously exiting the parking lot and driving slowly down the street. I stood and I watched until I could see them no longer. And I turned and went back inside.

Back to that place where others might find … clutter.

Shalom my friends,

Nail-Bender in NC


12 Feb 1999
21:31:16

HW in HI: Seems to me somebody in the faith once said something like: we are members one of another. when one member suffers, all suffer. when one is honored, all are honored. Or at least words to that effect. I'm sure you will handle the service in such a way that all will feel honored. As Christians we rejoice with others, and we weep with others. You will know which parishoniers are liable to be wounded, and will so minister to them that this may be a healing time for them. Above all, I feel confident you will proclaim God's grace and love to all, married, single, divorced, widowed. Shalom R.J. in ND


12 Feb 1999
22:36:15

Here's another perspective on the Battle Hymn of the Republic: Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe, noted philanthropist and fighter for Greek independence, believed married women should lead private lives. After his wife, Julia Ward Howe wrote the Battle Hymn of the Republic in 1862, he tolerated her new popularity with amusement.

When they celebrated their 20th anniversary, Julia wrote in her diary: "I have never known my husband to approve of any act of mine which I myself valued . . . . Everything has been contemptible in his eyes . . . ." But she waited until he died 14 years later to enter full public life. (Quoted from Notable American Women II, p. 226.)

Suddenly the Battle Hymn takes on another dimension, eh? Anne in Providence


13 Feb 1999
01:41:25

Panthersyl, Did you realize that you sent an entire posting without using any combined/words? Congratulations! Please accept this comment in the spirit it is intended...just a tease. I really enjoy reading your comments and find such thought provoking meat in them that I have to read them a lot more slowly than some of the others. And I note that you always try to be peacemaker and are careful about inclusive language and being non-offensive. I appreciate that. I always know it is you, though, because you use those slash/word/combinations. And they cause me to chuckle. RevKK


13 Feb 1999
01:44:55

Excuse me...I mean Pasthersyl. Ha. K


13 Feb 1999
07:33:07

How do I speak on Transfiguration to a small declining country congregation, average age 78? What about verse 5? Hearing Christ and obedience to which there is not much comment. Chris. Sheffield.


13 Feb 1999
08:57:44

Chris in Sheffield:

I, too, am speaking to a declining congregation. There is much "memory work" being done...I sense that memory has the power to move us forward if it is claimed. This text depends a great deal on collective memory for its power. The memory of Moses and Elijah and their role as embodiment of law and prophet speak volumes both to the disciples and to Matthew's listeners. The memory of Jesus as the one "down in the dirt" with the people (thanks to this site for this awareness) contributes to the disciples' interpretation of the "mountaintop experience." I am going to talk about the power of a simple image or phrase to trigger our memories...using famous lines from classic films "we'll always have Paris" (Casablanca) and "The force be with you" (Star Wars), etc. Then I'm not sure how I'm putting it together, but the point is powerful memory of God's action in the past can sustain us and break into more mundane present. When we don't know what else to do...the memory of what God has done and can do can give us a vision for what God will do. I'll also talk about the relationship between faithfulness in the ordinary and how that can take us to the mountain top

don't know if this will help...but it helped me to write it down. Blessings on your small congregation.. I suspect your older folks are powerfully nurtured by memory, since they have sustained so many losses by now.

DKS


13 Feb 1999
09:56:54

To me reading about the transfiguration is like being in a theatre with the house lights off. You walk down the aisle towards the stage and notice that there is a chink where the curtains have not been fully drawn across. Peeping through you see the stage lit up and a full dress rehersal in progress, all is bright and colourful - you cannot mount the stage or take part - it is another world. Yet you cannot deny the reality of what you have seen even if you cannot fully understand it. Sometimes we are given glimpses of the utter reality of Christ and his Kingdom it is not always easy to explain the experience to someone who has not been there, but for us who have to make our way back up through the darkened theatre and out into the street, that glimpse can be enough to lighten our life and transform our hope.

Cousin Jack from Cornwall


13 Feb 1999
10:03:14

Hi all. I enjoy all the contributions so far! My church has been lifeless for the past several years. I am a new pastor here and we are making some changes. Our board members are "stuck" in their everyday ritual of life. But at the same time there are members who want to anxiously be able to serve Christ. This coming thursday I will be holding a "Disciples For Christ" class at the parsonage. An opportunity for all in the community to come and share "the vision" of Christ for our lives. The people are now fully excited to see what God has in store for them and the ways that they might serve Him. This lifeless church has now got the feeling and the love of the transfiguration living within them. Praise be to God! I agree with the statement made earlier that it is NOT just about Jesus' transfiguration, but ultimately it is about OUR own transfiguration. We must change, and if we do the light of Jesus will surely shine within us all! God bless you all! Brian in TX


13 Feb 1999
13:03:31

RevKK,

I believe you might be confusing Pasthersyl with PaideaSco in La (and I'm probably butchering the spelling of both 'handles').

Despite my spelling, I do enjoy the posts of both these contributors and you as well...

Rick in VA


13 Feb 1999
15:49:29

What a pain, to see all that and be commanded not to tell anyone. Instant fame it would have brought to have seen Moses and Elijah. Lots of church folk and pastors crave recognition, official titles, big headlines for our spiritual experiences, powerful testimonies, etc. But Jesus forbids it. Just like Mary, we are left to ponder all these things in our hearts and let ourselves be transformed by God's mysterious presence in our midst. Anne in Providence


13 Feb 1999
16:15:51

I suppose Jesus tells them to be silent about the vision until the light has swelled up within them at the time of the resurrection, then the light is released on the whole world. Indeed, how does one commmunicate an event which comes to you in a the first language of experience, for we only have the second language of interpretation to communicate. That is the say, there are miles between the Encounter and the interpretation! The disciples, like Jesus, are "ALONE" in the knowing ... and must not open their lips until He has been risen from the dead.

tom in ga


13 Feb 1999
16:48:09

How diverse are the views of this site--and in that is their great value! Perhaps it might be more helpful to consider the reasons that "our feminist sisters" are offended by some hymns--than to suggest that one could take a lifetime forgiving all the instances in which they are offended (Re:Rick in VA). A feminist is not just a sister, but one of our brothers and sisters who believes that women (and men, too!)have choices: yes, choices even to be offended at some lyrics. As a pacifist, one may find the "Battle Hymn" difficult to integrate into one's theology. Some have come to believe that a feminist is a militant female who stomps on tradition and all men. I understand feminists to be gentle or militant, loving or not, men or women, male lovers and male bashers. That is to say that there is no pigeon hole into which one can place a feminist. We are men and women alike who just want men and women alike to have choices and opportunities--and freedom from labeling with generalities. Thanks for the great dialogue on the Transfiguration! Also, I'm a Bowen Theory instructor--enjoyed the systems reference! Rev'n in PA


13 Feb 1999
18:33:09

Ijust looked at every word on this site and I was amazed at one thing. God said "This is my son,who I love, listen to him. I don't want to be a literalist or anything but aren't the next words out fo Jesus' mouth important?

The words are NOT "don't tell anyine about this" they ARE "Stand up, don't be afraid."

My personal opinion is that this text is about standing up and not being afraid. Mountain top, valley, married, divorced, whatever.

What do you think?

Big Ran- FtWorth


13 Feb 1999
18:33:19

Ijust looked at every word on this site and I was amazed at one thing. God said "This is my son,who I love, listen to him. I don't want to be a literalist or anything but aren't the next words out fo Jesus' mouth important?

The words are NOT "don't tell anyine about this" they ARE "Stand up, don't be afraid."

My personal opinion is that this text is about standing up and not being afraid. Mountain top, valley, married, divorced, whatever.

What do you think?

Big Ran- FtWorth


13 Feb 1999
18:33:29

Ijust looked at every word on this site and I was amazed at one thing. God said "This is my son,who I love, listen to him. I don't want to be a literalist or anything but aren't the next words out fo Jesus' mouth important?

The words are NOT "don't tell anyine about this" they ARE "Stand up, don't be afraid."

My personal opinion is that this text is about standing up and not being afraid. Mountain top, valley, married, divorced, whatever.

What do you think?

Big Ran- FtWorth


13 Feb 1999
20:28:26

A final reflection - before taps!

It has been suggested that this event takes place during the feast of Sukkot, the feast of booths, a time of the spring harvest when the law and the prophets are celebrated in Judaism. In the Gospel, the theophany is an invitation to the disciples to enter a new story, the fullness of revelation as revealed in Jesus. It is a story that has as its major them the life giving gift of the cross. How does this story differ from our successful oriented stories that we tell ourselves in our culture? How does this story of suffering open us to a different mystery that is life giving? What are the stories we live in, the myths the permeate our individuality? Peter, James and John are invited to be the first disciples to enter "the cloud" - "the new myth" that will change, transfigure their lives.

tom in ga


13 Feb 1999
21:50:22

For the first time in several moons I indeed found myself desperate on a Saturday evening. I have felt empty as I approached this Sunday. Again, for the first time in a long time I returned to this site and received new wine. thank you for the transfiguration of marriage, the images from Narnia which recalled my reading t hose wonder-filled stories to my children, the observation that silence (awe?) is the only appropriate response (truly: "tell no one") to such a magnitudinous event, the child praying that God won't move, the polarized dialog: You are the Christ/ You are Peter; I must suffer/ say not, bordered by the glory of God. Even the crucifixion's horror is bounded by God's glory.

I have also been intrigued with the flowing of the Spirit from within Jesus throughout his physical appearance. When the divine within us is visible, our shared humanity glows with God's love. I link this to sanctification in a somewhat nebulous manner. // I want to be a sunbeam for Jesus, still some fifty years after first learning that song: a sunbeam! a sunbeam! Jesus wants me for a sunbeam! Or, has my friend Harold says, "I want to be a glow-worm for Jesus!"

Peace and Joy, and thanks, Conrad


13 Feb 1999
22:35:56

I, too, serve a declining church. Perhaps "On the Mountaintop, or Over the Hill?" would be a clever title.

Jim in AL


13 Feb 1999
23:50:53

My view of the transfiguration (a story): I remember as a child being in my house during a storm -- no power, no light, just darkness. I wanted to get from the 'spooky' living room to the safety of my room upstairs. But how? -- in the total darkness with no flashlight, no candle.

I waited for the lightning. And in the instance of the flash, an image of my surroundings would burn into my retinas and my brain. And I would take a few steps until the image would fade or I would turn a corner. Then I would wait for the flash again.

The Transfiguration event is the flash that shows us the way through lent, the way THROUGH Golgotha to Easter. Each Sunday worship is (or should be) the flash which shows us the topography of our life enough to get us through the darkness of the week. But, if we don't take those steps while the image is fresh, we don't get anywhere... and we remain in the dark.

TheProcrastinator


19 Feb 1999
11:29:10

2/19 I am a lay speaker and had the opportunity to present a mini sermon on this scripture at the workshop. I chose to title the topic, It's No Secret Any More", because I focused on how much trust Jesus had in Peter, James and John. Can you imagine how difficult it must have been not to tell anyone about this event. What a temptation! Now we can tell others about this great event.

I sure appreciate the dialog on this subject.

Any comments about this point of view?


19 Feb 1999
11:36:27

2/19/99 Hi again. I'm the Lay Speaker with the focus on the secret. Guess I forgot to identify myself.

I'm Matt, Buffalo, WY


22 Feb 1999
22:36:15

Lay speaker, it looks like everyone used this scripture for Transfiguration of the Lord on Feb. 14th and no one is preaching it again on this Sunday just 2 weeks later. Sorry revup


24 Feb 1999
20:33:25

You may find this helpful! Taking the Lord's work ang giving it back to him. It is a joy to go apart with you Lord, up a high mountain, A place where we can see you as you are, A place where we can see you in your glory. Jesu when you are in consultation with The Father, you reflect his Glory. We want to reflect your Glory Lord Jesus, We want to be transfigured into your likeness. You Bright morning Star. you Lord Jesus, Light of the World, You are as radiant as the sun, Your raiment white as light. Glorious Lord, we want to build a tent for you, So that you will stay and linger with us for a while, We want to remain in the glorious light of your presence. God our Father, hide not your face from us, Even so father, we see you in the glory of Jesus, So be it - God almighty.

Lord God Almighty, speak to us from the cloud, Sovereign Lord we love to hear your voice, Reveal more of yourself to us in your son Jesus, Jesus, Son of God, Beloved of God, Beloved Son, Pleased of God, Glory of God revealed, We hear your voice, we listen to you, We stand in awe of you, We lie prostrate before you God Almighty, We lie prostrate before you Lord Jesus. Touch us Lord Jesus,/Jesus Lift us up so that we can stand face to face with You./We praise you who has not given us a spirit of timidity We Praise you because yo have given us a Spirit of courage./ Our eyes are fixed on you Lord Jesus Help us to see only you Lord Jesus, /And to see you Lord jesu in every person./As we descend the Mount of Transfiguration, we go in Quietness,/reflecting on the vision of your Glory, knowing you as you are.


24 Feb 1999
20:41:31

You may find this helpful! Taking the Lord's work ang giving it back to him. It is a joy to go apart with you Lord, up a high mountain, A place where we can see you as you are, A place where we can see you in your glory. Jesus when you are in consultation with The Father, you reflect his Glory. We want to reflect your Glory Lord Jesus, We want to be transfigured into your likeness. You Bright morning Star. you Lord Jesus, Light of the World, You are as radiant as the sun, Your raiment white as light. Glorious Lord, we want to build a tent for you, So that you will stay and linger with us for a while, We want to remain in the glorious light of your presence. God our Father, hide not your face from us, Even so Father, we see you in the glory of Jesus, So be it - God almighty.

Lord God Almighty, speak to us from the cloud, Sovereign Lord we love to hear your voice, Reveal more of yourself to us in your son Jesus, Jesus, Son of God, Beloved of God, Beloved Son, Pleased of God, Glory of God revealed, We hear your voice, we listen to you, We stand in awe of you, We lie prostrate before you God Almighty, We lie prostrate before you Lord Jesus. Touch us Lord Jesus,/Jesus Lift us up so that we can stand face to face with You./We praise you who has not given us a spirit of timidity We Praise you because yo have given us a Spirit of courage./ Our eyes are fixed on you Lord Jesus Help us to see only you Lord Jesus, /And to see you Lord Jesus in every person./As we descend the Mount of Transfiguration, we go in Quietness,/reflecting on the vision of your Glory, knowing you as you are. Valx


18 Jan 2000
01:38:08

18 Jan 2000
01:39:22