I have a strange, almost irreverent question, could the little children's tale, The Three Little Pigs" be based on this passage?
Just wondering a little early,
tom in ga
Date: 13 May, 2002
Time: 05:41:44 PM
maybe but then there is the true story of the three little pigs told by the wolfs point of view! Nancy-WI
Date: 15 May, 2002
Time: 07:09:59 PM
Messenger of Peace Messenger of Peace
Only those who hears and acts on the words of God will be able to enter into the Kingdom of God. Those who have based their faith on a solid foundation can stand the storms of life when they come.
Rains, floods, and winds come to all of us. They beat against the heart and soul, but if our faith is founded on Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ we will stand. If not then we will fall. A person who does not stand on their faith has nothing to stand on. A person who kneels before God in prayer can stand before any human situation.
Date: 18 May, 2002
Time: 06:04:37 AM
"for he taught them as one having authority", this line really catches my attention. What is our authority? That of Jesus or the Scribes? Do we today give God authority in our lives. Nancy-WI
Date: 18 May, 2002
Time: 06:05:33 AM
Please sign posts! Nancy-Wi
Date: 21 May, 2002
Time: 05:44:54 AM
v.22 - "Didn't WE DO all the things required of us to be saved?" WE did this, and WE did that - We were good people, didn't purposely try to hurt anyone. Lived a good life. We didn't need to go to church to that. You mean it wasn't about being good people? It was believing and REALLY having faith in you? Making you our "rock and salvation"? OH! The beginnings of an idea ~ Reverend KJ
Date: 21 May, 2002
Time: 06:19:47 PM
See D. Bonhoeffer's Costly and Cheap Grace in "The Cost of Discipleship"
tom in ga
Date: 22 May, 2002
Time: 06:11:21 AM
The Parable of the Two Builders reflects the wisdom says of the Hebrew Scriptures:
Who are wise? Who are foolish?
It raises the simple question of how shall we follow Jesus as his disciples: By knowing his will or doing his will, etc.
tom in ga
Date: 23 May, 2002
Time: 11:44:11 AM
So what does it mean to build my house on a foundation of rock? Already my house is built on sand, when the winds and rains come I feel the foundation decaying from underneath me, I am loosing ground - how do I begin to rebuild? Where do I turn to for conversion/renovation? I need a new security and strength that only the rock will give me. I look at my congregation, no one seems to know where to find the rocks, everyone is like myself ... sand castles seem to be very popular no matter the weather or if we live in California. No one listens to God, no one acts obediently. We have lost our way, we want to be blessed, but we end up being cursed! Is there anyone out there that understands this dilemma? The faith community proclaims that it is built upon the ROCK but we are unable to deal with anger, dissension, disunity, discord, death, destruction, lack of commitment, etc. Where is our faith? How do we listen to God? Where do I find him in the competing voices of our day?
tom in ga
Date: 23 May, 2002
Time: 12:09:12 PM
I am a United Methodist who will be going to annual conference soon, and in thinking about the issues that will be discussed and voted on, this text jumps out at me -- not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom (and no, I have never thought annual conference or UMC were interchangeable terms for the kingdom, though they are not mutually exclusive, either.)
The ones who will argue the longest and loudest will be the ones who insist that they are the ones who prophesy in Jesus' name, and cast out demons, and do many deeds of power -- though they may indeed be the ones Jesus calls "evildoers" as their positions seem to be rooted more in personal glory and gain than in a humble submitting to the will of God revealed in Jesus Christ.
So what's a person to do? Do we build on the shifting sands of public opinion and persuasion (a lot of fun for those having their day at the beach!) or do we build upon the Rock of our salvation? And won't the crowds be astounded if we act with authority, and not as the scribes!
OLAS
Date: 24 May, 2002
Time: 02:07:04 PM
On what else can we build upon, but the grace of God? Paul seemed to understand profoundly that we are all sinners who can never be righteous on our own. Try as we might, we fail. Only God's blessing of grace allows us freedom from our weaknesses to keep the commandments and to truly know what a blessing they are for us. I will be starting with Paul's words in Romans as the foundation for the sermon. Once we've experienced that grace, we quit trying to prove our worthiness or correctness and allow God to work through our humble attempts to love. GB in MI
Date: 26 May, 2002
Time: 10:53:59 AM
The opening of this reading harks back to the concern I shared last week. We don't like the four-lettered word "Obey". We don't teach it and we don't expect it. Jesus said,"...teachig them to obey..."
This text seems to be sayig the same thing. Not everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be save, but those who DO the will of God.
Maybe if we obeyed Jesus, we wouldn't have centuries of church scandals, maybe if we obey Jesus 17 million people won't die (every year) without hearing Gospel. Maybe if we obeyed Jesus, there would be people who live across the road from our churches or homes who have no idea what Christianity is about. I read this week a survey that said that 97% of the world's population has heard of Coca Cola. How come the church isn't any where near that successful with the Great Commission.
Last week people said that we don't like to obey anymore (post-sixties). Perhaps the decline of Christianity is due to our neglect and desire to not offend with the Truth.
I worry about the church of the West.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 26 May, 2002
Time: 08:45:02 PM
Amen, Ia... Like the coke thing...think I'll borrow it...The Coke Motto "The Real Thing" A soda real thing? CHrist is real thing.... do you all know the song to that title...instead of Coke is...say Christ is... Christ is- the real thing; In the back of your mind- Christ is; Have Him anytime; Christ is real thing... Or I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...I'd like to share Christ with the world- to keep them company...He's the real thing....Time after Time...In the Back of your Mind...Christ is the real thing..... Ladypreacher in OHIO
Date: 26 May, 2002
Time: 08:49:24 PM
Oh,another quote for your sermons next week! Jack Nicholas in a few good men, " YOU CAN't HANDLE THE TRUTH!" As you talk about the sixties here...has the Western way of thinking become that...I am too young for the sixties... here "BABY BUSTER" generation When the 20 somethings phrase was first coined...I was 20 something...I Like to say I am upper end- GEN Xer!!!! But what about Generation NEXT! (LOL THAT's PEPSI I HAVE SODA FIXATION TONIGHT) Will Generation Next handle the truth...Ladypreacher in OHIO
Date: 27 May, 2002
Time: 08:28:57 AM
Help with understanding:
Does this parable really mean that as long as I depend on myself, my own good works, my own life-style, my own understanding of right and wrong (thanks to the Fall) that I have built my house on sand. BUT
If I have surrendered my life, given up my sense of controled, turned my life over to Christ our God, released my sense of knowing that I will have built my house of rock.
If this is true, how do we do this? I procrastinate enough, I don't need anyone suggesting that I will never get around to being responsible! How do I build my house on rock. I don't think Coke will do the trick (though I do own a few shares).
I am really desperate about this whole issue.
tom in ga
P.S. On Trinity Sunday I thought I would try to engage my congregation in a discussion on the Trinity, guess what no one had an idea about the Trinity or its meaning. What does that suggest about the preaching at this parish for over a hundred and fifty years - or does anyone really care?????
Date: 27 May, 2002
Time: 08:42:13 AM
Ladypreacher in Oh, Please use the coke thing, I used it for the Great Commission and it really got people's attetion. Before the service began, I sat a bottle of Coke on the pulpit where all could see is right from the start. Our prelude music before the "official" begginning of the service was the old song "I'd like to teach the world to sing..." (the version before coke changed it) but may in the congregation recogized it.
"Coca-cola is one product that has far outgrown its humble beginnings. In 1886, Dr. John Pemberton first introduced Coca-Cola in Atlanta, Georgia. The pharmacist concocted a caramel-colored syrup in a three-legged brass kettle in his backyard. He first "distributed" Coca-Cola by carrying it in a jug down the street to Jacobs a local pharmacy.
"After little more than 100 years, surveys show that 97% of the world has heard of coca-cola. Seventy-two percent of the world has seen a can of coca-cola. Fifty one percent of the world has tasted a can of coca-cola. All due to the fact that the company made a commitment years ago that every one on the planet would have a taste of their soft drink.
"We should stand up and take note here! Ninety-seven percent of the world has heard of this sugar and water concoction while 1.7 billion people worldwide have no access to the good news of Jesus Christ! And it is estimated that 17 million people die every year without having heard the name of Jesus"!
Date: 27 May, 2002
Time: 04:24:41 PM
OFF TOPIC EPISCOPAL INQUIRY
Hey, Gang! There's a humorous list of the "operative beliefs" of Episcopalians ... it includes such items as
"Any job worth doing is enhanced by an esoteric name"
"Episcopalians are the only people God trusts to take the summer off"
and so forth
I have lost my copy and can't seem to find it on the web....
Does anyone else have it?
Please send it to me at rector@stfrancis-ks.org
Thanks, Eric in KS
Date: 27 May, 2002
Time: 04:27:31 PM
tom in ga wrote: "On Trinity Sunday I thought I would try to engage my congregation in a discussion on the Trinity, guess what no one had an idea about the Trinity or its meaning. What does that suggest about the preaching at this parish for over a hundred and fifty years - or does anyone really care?????"
I almost tried that ... but since I'm in an Episcopal congregation (like you, tom) I thought better of it.
But your question reminds me of the public opinion poll take to determine whether major problem in our society is ignorance or apathy.... the most common reply: "I don't know and I don't care."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 27 May, 2002
Time: 08:19:30 PM
It has been a long time since I contributed anything to this conversation -- although I have enjoyed reading the suggestions by so many of you. To assuage my growing feelings of guilt, I thought I might add just an insight I had as I was reading the contributions already submitted. It is true that most of us struggle with the concept of obedience. We really do not like to be told to obey anyone. But last January, as I was doing a sermon on baptism using the Lord's baptism as a model, I stumbled across a definition of faith that has come to hold a special meaning to me. I do not recall if I read it somewhere, or if it was just one of those "God-moments" when you actually learn directly from the Holy Spirit's guidance. Anyway the definition of faith that I discovered is that FAITH IS LIVING AS IF GOD'S PROMISES WERE TRUE! That puts faith into doing and living, rather than just talking about believing. As Bonhoeffer might say it puts us in a position where faith becomes possible. It also removes all considerations of obedience, but the same actions get done. That is, my actions are based on God's grace & love & promises, rather than obedience based on some punishment )or withholding of a reward). It seems to me this is what Jesus is talking about when He talks of the one who hears His words and ACTS on them. Just some thoughts early in the week. Hope it helps someone. Art in KY
Date: 27 May, 2002
Time: 08:21:39 PM
It has been a long time since I contributed anything to this conversation -- although I have enjoyed reading the suggestions by so many of you. To assuage my growing feelings of guilt, I thought I might add just an insight I had as I was reading the contributions already submitted. It is true that most of us struggle with the concept of obedience. We really do not like to be told to obey anyone. But last January, as I was doing a sermon on baptism using the Lord's baptism as a model, I stumbled across a definition of faith that has come to hold a special meaning to me. I do not recall if I read it somewhere, or if it was just one of those "God-moments" when you actually learn directly from the Holy Spirit's guidance. Anyway the definition of faith that I discovered is that FAITH IS LIVING AS IF GOD'S PROMISES WERE TRUE! That puts faith into doing and living, rather than just talking about believing. As Bonhoeffer might say it puts us in a position where faith becomes possible. It also removes all considerations of obedience, but the same actions get done. That is, my actions are based on God's grace & love & promises, rather than obedience based on some punishment )or withholding of a reward). It seems to me this is what Jesus is talking about when He talks of the one who hears His words and ACTS on them. Just some thoughts early in the week. Hope it helps someone. Art in KY
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 06:24:41 AM
Thank you Art,
This is a good week to lay that defination out to the congregation.
Pr.del in IA
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 06:46:00 AM
I am beginning to think about this reading in light of the works of Thomas Merton on the True and False Self. If we examine this reading through the prism of his work it seems as though we are a mixture of rocks and sand (weeds and wheat).
Created in the image of God, we already are built on a foundation of rock; recreated through the paschal mystery we have received grace through faith.
However, as we seek to live our individual lives, we tend to move further and further away from our true self and embrace a false self which defines itself by our possessions, our education, our denomination, our religious practice, etc.
The task for us dig in the sand long enough until we discover the rock foundation. This can only be done through faith, surrender, and letting go of control.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 06:53:48 AM
Eric in KS,
I guess I will never learn. From time to time I have sought to invite the congregation into discussion - Adult Education is not something anyone really participates in here - so it helps to get some reading on where they are.
I am sorry I asked the question regarding the Trinity however - it just meant that I will have to reflect more about how to bring this congregation from ignorance and apathy to wonder and joy. I appreciate very much your thoughtfulness throughout our ongoing discussion on the Sunday readings.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 07:06:49 AM
It seems to me that the insight of one of my seminary profs rings true in this passage. "Beware of having faith in your faith." He went on to say that Eve, having faith in her faith, thereby opened the way for Satan to deceive her.
Those who come saying, "Lord, Lord" who have cast demons out and did works of power in the name of Jesus also have that temptation in having faith in their faith - themselves - and not in their constant need of redemption and Jesus' constant offering and work of grace, forgiveness and reconciliation towards us.
Tigger in MN
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 07:48:55 AM
28 MAY 02
Seems like I really need the help this week--thanks for the early musings. ANd humor... Nicholas is the golfer, I believe that was Jack Nicolson (sp?) who played the USMC General re "Can't handle the truth." I need to maybe do a little deeper exegetical check of the Greek, but it does seem that the outwardly holy ones were claiming their position in the kingdom based on PAST action (did we not (implied... "back then") do many deeds of power..."? I mean Matthew's gospel is the same one (see ch. 25) that separates sheep and goats based on these deeds of social justice. Kind of the same critique of certain holier than thou pharisees who claimed blessings based on biological link to Abraham. Jesus (and moreso, St. Paul, I suppose) pointed out that we though not biologically related, are participants in this kingdom thanks to Christ and responsive discipleship. Peter in WI
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 11:35:14 AM
Help! I can't get beyond the grace versus works applications of this passage. -- Not the ones that "SAY"... but the ones that "DO". I'm in the midst of encouraging my congregation to BE this summer ... to allow time for restoration, recreation and stillness. (Since most of my folks seem to be on vacation anyway, it seemed a prudent thing to bring a Godly focus on a vacation season.) So... now, I turn to these opening verses. For here wisdom and in effect salvation are based on hearing and acting... right? I think I will step away from this text and come back tomorrow. Maybe after a restorative nap. RevAmy
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 11:50:53 AM
After a day off yesterday (aaaahhhh), I'm back at it, starting a series called "Back to BAsics." Part of the reason is just what Tom in GA articulated. I, too, am astounded not only by Jesus' authority but by how long people have been claiming the name, "Christian," to not know some very basic stuff. I get discouraged, too. Yet, could my discouragement not be seen as Tigger's "having faith in (my) faith?"
BTW: I think last week I mentioned "Handel's" "The Creation." CORRECTION: It's Haydn, not Handel. Sorry. I couldn't go back and see if that's what I wrote or not.
Sally in GA
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 11:53:04 AM
I want some more information here - I am thinking that this passage has something to do with those church folks of the roman times who "transgressed" and denied Christ to save their lives only to show back up the next week in church? Was this passage dealing with the historical problem of folks who only claimed Christ when they were in the company of supporters? revdan
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 11:55:20 AM
Then again, I still discover things I've been mistaken on. I wonder who's discouraged because of my ignorance and apathy? I don't feel like I'm either one, but I'm sure some think I am ...
Sally in GA
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 12:01:52 PM
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 12:03:32 PM
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 12:05:55 PM
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 12:07:17 PM
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 12:10:50 PM
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 12:19:16 PM
Anyone can wear phyllacteries (see the Deut. text) on their heads and forearms. It takes Jesus to help us put them on our hearts. and it's a continual and permanent process. If there is an element of grace v. works in this text, then there's an element of internal/external as well. The internal is more than surrender, as I see it; it's an opening up, a convicting, a "weren't-our-hearts-burning-within-us" feeling. This is not to discount the value of outside reminders of who we are and Whom we serve (I carry one of those corny crosses in my pocket); but that any real transformation comes from a circumcision of the heart.
Thus, calling "Lord, Lord" is paradoxically an exclamation of both supplication as a disciple and boldness as a brother or sister. If it were only external, we would only need to submit. And it would only be one-way. This way, we are charged with also "becoming like Christ" or developing a real relationship as in a marriage.
Off to pick up my older girl from finals ... Sally in GA
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 01:53:23 PM
For those who would argue universal salvation, Jesus gives us this lesson. Not all will be saved even if they have the right words on their lips. We need to be obedient to His word and His authority.
There are only two ways and two endings to human life as represented by the two foundations of the two builders. There are two ways to respond to Jesus: we either accept and follow Him, or we reject Him and go our own way. What we do with Jesus and His teaching determines our destiny.
Tough text for a tough world. Pastor John in CT
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 03:18:12 PM
I think I am going to title my sermon "Karaoke Faith." Not everyone who wears skimpy outfits is Britney Spears. Not everyone who sings "Yesterday" is Paul McCartney. Not everyone who pouts and struts is Steven Tyler or Mick Jagger. But there are plenty of people who think it is enough to sing along with a tape/CD, to dress like them, to move like them, to study about them, to be obsessive about them -- thinking that this is enough to truly make them part of Britney's/Paul's/whoever's world. There is a place of "worship" for these people -- the karaoke bar.
In that same way, not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," who knows all the words and verses of Jesus, who knows how to do the moves is necessarily part of the kingdom.
When the "moves" are borrowed, we have come by them too easily, and they can just as easily fail us when the rain falls and the floods come. Our discipleship, to be authentic, has to be built on our relationship with the Rock of Ages -- which is not as easy as doing whatever is popular in the shifting sands of public opinion. The guidance of the saints is helpful, but their guidance is not what saves us. It will be our saving relationship with Jesus Christ that enables us to live as authentic witnesses.
OLAS
Date: 28 May, 2002
Time: 03:20:31 PM
The whole faith-vs.-works debate has always struck me as a "straw man" sort of argument....
In the reading from Romans, Paul concludes: "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Doesn't a truly active ("doing") faith entail works -- it is more than merely saying "Lord, Lord" -- it is a faith which does the Law simply because there is no other way to be! The righteousness of the Law is, to the truly faithful, like water to a fish! There is no thinking about doing the right thing, one just does it because that is the way the faithful one IS!
And then there is that "straw epistle" (Luther's term) the Letter of James which correctly sums it all up saying that "faith without works is dead" -- "By my works, I will show you my faith." Or as Jesus put it elsewhere, "By their fruits, you will know them."
Faith-works-works-faith ... it's all part of a package. Can't really have one without the other. (Like soup-and-sandwich, I suppose.)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 07:06:06 AM
We stand on a path that is forked, which way do we travel, the way of blessing, a rocky way; or a way of cursing, a smooth sandy way.
We have come forth out of the the Easter Season as a new people, reborn in Christ, we have heard the good news, we have been rescued from sin and death, what now shall we do?
What do we truly embrace? Christianity or Churchianity? Is the outer shell, the social interaction, the goal of our lives? Or is there something more? That invites our full attention, that calls for a deeper commitment, a renewed hope.
How do we live NOW as the people of God? By showing off our power or by simply receving as deeply as possible the grace that has been given to us?
tom in ga
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 07:18:08 AM
Accepting Jesus
Now this is an interesting concept even for us Christians. It seems to me that as soon as you settle into your new belief in Jesus you are in trouble for you somehow assume that you have some privilege that others do not have ... the gain of Eternal Life. However the new privilege is not Eternal Life (as normally interpreted) but a relationship with Christ now in his mission and in his suffering.
tom in ga
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 07:26:14 AM
There is an evangelical church in my area that has on its prayer concern wall the statement that "we pray for all the members of traditional churches who think they know Christ." I know I am being defensive (as a pastor of one such church), but I can't helped wondering if this arrogance isn't part of what Jesus was trying to address here. Tim in NY
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 08:06:11 AM
The song "Rock of Ages cleft for me" comes to mind as I read this passage. A cleft is a safe place to be. It's trusting the protection of the rock no matter what may come. It is a total trust because the rest of the world is seen from this point. I really believe Jesus was trying to make this point through a parable that would make sense. Faith is the place we have shelter. It is a dwelling we build upon in each moment. So many times we look at life as something huge and we will always find time to get around to trusting God more. That faith is something we have at special moments. I hear Jesus saying, this moment before you now is your life. kb in ks
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 09:03:45 AM
Eric - I hear you. I also know that I need to be reminded not to get too "works" oriented. Folks' discipleship tends to get skewed according to their nature. I have little patience for "talking heads," talk talk talk about faith with nothing to back it up. However, skewing in the works direction as I'm prone to do does little to distinguish ministry from social work. I like being reminded of some of those "straw men" issues.
Anyways, I'm preaching a series called "Back to Basics," and this scripture and the Romans speaks well to the overarching theme. This week's topic is "Bible Study." I intend to focus on Jesus' words, "the one who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man," and Romans' "I'm not ashamed of the Gospel ... and later in the reading, upholding the Law." It's a direction a little different than I'd normally take. But I contend that in order to live according to Jesus' words we first must know what they actually say.
One question: "like a wise man" - is "wise man" along the lines of a sage, or is it simply a prudent person?
Next question: How does one preach the need for Bible study without sounding like it's some sort of drudgery task that we must grit our teeth and white-knuckle it through? Unfortunately, that's the impression many have. If only I could communicate the beautiful world opened up to me by actually learning what's in there!!!
Anyways, finals day again - and guess who, of my husband and me, has the more flexible schedule?? Sometimes a perk, sometimes a nuisance, but I'm off to pick up my older girl after her morning final.
Sally in GA
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 09:28:05 AM
HELP! Has anyone written or seen anything written for a truckers funeral. Need asap! Nancy-WI
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 11:11:38 AM
Nancy - try searching "trucking ministries" on Google. I know there are many ministries like this about.
Sally
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 01:45:13 PM
Hello all - Thanks for all the helpful thoughts.
Tigger in MN: I like your analysis of the "Lord, Lord" issue Jesus addressed--the syndrome of having faith in our faith (ourselves) instead of God's redeeming grace.
As for the discussion around faith and works, I hear a distinction between what Jesus says in Matthew and what Paul says. I understand the Matthew text to mean that belief without action (behavior)in not belief at all. Like Eric in KS said about works and faith, you can't have one without the other. However, I also believe we need to be careful that we don't send the message that we aren't doing enough. Caretakers, workaholics, co-dependents and people loaded down with guilt often believe that they just need to "do" more in order to save themselves, others and/or the world.
It seems to me that Jesus' encouragement to "hear" and "act" have more to do with the fact that it is only in our living (our actions) that our belief takes root and becomes a part of us and impacts the world. So it is not necessarily that we need to do more "works" (though for many of us that is precisely what is needed), but we need to live our faith in our day-to-day actions and interactions. I'm thinking of talking about the difference between hearing the doctor's advise to eat less and exercise more, and actually doing it. Life saving!
Tom in GA: I have to wonder about the lack of response in your congregation when asked to share thoughts about the Trinity. Have you asked for live feedback in the past? If so, do they usually respond? Since it was the Memorial Weekend, were the outspoken persons not there? Maybe they were just basking silently in the mystery. On a whim I conducted a poll during my sermon on Trinity Sunday. I had been talking about how we experience God in different ways--some of us are most keenly aware of God's presence in creation (Creator), some of us have a very real sense of Jesus as companion and/or savior (Christ), some of us are tuned into the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was a bit more detailed, but for the sake of keeping this post from becoming an epistle I am summarizing. Then I asked people to indicate which aspect of the Trinity they responded to most strongly, 1) Creator, 2) Christ, 3) Spirit, 4) the wholeness of all three. (I both these terms and the traditional language of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.) I was surprised at the results. The clear majority chose option 4, the wholeness, with Creator and Spirit each receiving a considerable number of votes. Christ got zero votes. There were approximately fifty people participating.
JGBinID
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 03:33:47 PM
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone. (Ecc. 12:13)
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 04:21:40 PM
Nancy in WI,
Go ahead and look at the trucking ministries on Google, but also, trust the Spirit. I pray for God's guidance for you as you work to preach the gospel, possibly to some who have never heard. Almost every funeral has one or two who have either never heard, or whose hard hearts have never been touched. Blessings of the Spirit.
Michelle
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 04:42:16 PM
"You don't have to believe it, you just have to do it." I've heard these words so many times I'd like to shut my ears to the ones who proclaim them loudly in defense of a particular liturgical practice required in some of our denominations.
Here, in this text, we have doers, who do prophesy, cast out demons, and act deeds of power in the name of Jesus Christ, but Jesus "never knew them." Why?
How can one who truly believes act contrary to God's will? Don't we want to share the good news? Granted, we are human and often will fail, but our actions speak volumes more than our words. When we act the love of God (and I mean do it, not pretend), that love will reach our neighbors.
Maybe it's when we act in order to be noticed, as in doing deeds of power, or praying loudly and publically (think, the Pharisee and the Publican) that we risk not being known by Jesus, for then we have "already received our reward."
I don't really see a conflict between faith and works, except that works cannot save you. However, those who have faith I believe will work within the will of God to the best of their ability. It's those who believe "God doesn't care what you (I) do" who are in for a big surprise.
On the issue of "obey," I believe the translation of that word in last week's lesson is a little light. Obey does have such negative connotations, whereas that word has more of a sense of "Keeping." Keeping commandments definitely includes obedience, but I believe it is less negative, closer to the heart, and a better translation of the Greek.
Michelle
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 05:19:55 PM
BAck to the word "obey"... The New American Standard Bible translates it "observe".
"I do not know you." According to this passage, Jesus knows us by what we do. But you can do a lot of things without relating to Jesus. What's important is that we be in a working relationship with Jesus - that includes prayer (communication) and deeds.
We are having the 100th Anniversary of the Church building this week (not the congregation, but the building...big difference!) Thanks Tom in GA for the reminder of "Christianity vs. Churchianity". Churchianity is not founded on a rock. It's founded on a building and an institution. Christianity is founded on a living relationship which provides solid ground on which to work.
Just some early thoughts. I need more "rock" discussion out there!
DGinNYC
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 07:17:38 PM
Last night we watched “live” as the final steel piece was cut from the bottom of the WTC. Down in the “pit” they are surrounded by the cement foundation of the Towers. I was thinking about this scripture relating to that.
See, even though the architects and contractors thought about a plane crashing into the Towers when they were built back in the 60’s and early 70’s, they could never have foreseen an airliner the size that hit them 30 years later. We too can not fathom the storms life may hand us. Planes crashing into buildings, suicide bombers, impending nuclear war or perhaps basic storms of life like illness, unemployment, marital problems. Certainly furthest from anyone’s mind on Sept 11 were the horrors that awaited them.
But, no matter what happened to those Towers, that foundation still is intact. The slurry wall that keeps the river in its place is still doing its job. Psalm46 states that “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change, though the mountains [or anything else] shake in the heart of the sea; though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble with its tumult…..The nations are in an uproar, the kingdoms totter; he utters his voice, the earth melts. The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge….”
I guess I ramble on….I want to talk a bit more about the Rock of our Salvation and our faith that will not crumble., etc.
RAP in OH
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 07:18:32 PM
Last night we watched “live” as the final steel piece was cut from the bottom of the WTC. Down in the “pit” they are surrounded by the cement foundation of the Towers. I was thinking about this scripture relating to that.
See, even though the architects and contractors thought about a plane crashing into the Towers when they were built back in the 60’s and early 70’s, they could never have foreseen an airliner the size that hit them 30 years later. We too can not fathom the storms life may hand us. Planes crashing into buildings, suicide bombers, impending nuclear war or perhaps basic storms of life like illness, unemployment, marital problems. Certainly furthest from anyone’s mind on Sept 11 were the horrors that awaited them.
But, no matter what happened to those Towers, that foundation still is intact. The slurry wall that keeps the river in its place is still doing its job. Psalm46 states that “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change, though the mountains [or anything else] shake in the heart of the sea; though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains tremble with its tumult…..The nations are in an uproar, the kingdoms totter; he utters his voice, the earth melts. The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge….”
I guess I ramble on….I want to talk a bit more about the Rock of our Salvation and our faith that will not crumble., etc.
RAP in OH
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 08:37:54 PM
Sally in GA, I'm not sure of the size or your congregation, but I had tried for six and a half years to have bible study. People came out of obligation. Finally, one person asked about the possibility. I told her that I was open and explained my experience. I told her that I would talk about it during the announcement time and asked this woman if she would be the contact person. Those interested were to let her know what day of the week and what time of the day would work best. As it turned out, we ended up on Wednesdays at 5:30. We took turns fixing sandwiches for a light supper and we had twelve participants ranging in age 40 something to 80 something and everything in between. Sometimes, we just have to find that hungry person and let it be laity initiated. We met for seven weeks and are taking a break. We will re-convene in August and I am aware of one other that would like to join us. I HEAR AND UNDERSTAND your feelings around bible study. Just thought that I would add my two cents. lp in CO
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 09:17:48 PM
Nancy, I did one for a trucker in which I used Jesus "I am the way the truth and the life." I talked about how important finding the right road is for a trucker, and how they depend on maps. You can see the tie up here without going into a lot of detail. I also talked about how the trucker found joy in coming home again after a run, and there is the parallel with the truckers death as a homegoing. Other possibilities I've used are the scripture about not being afraid the terrors along the way. Also used once about God's building a highway from Isaiah. Hope this helps.
Date: 29 May, 2002
Time: 09:17:53 PM
Nancy, I did one for a trucker in which I used Jesus "I am the way the truth and the life." I talked about how important finding the right road is for a trucker, and how they depend on maps. You can see the tie up here without going into a lot of detail. I also talked about how the trucker found joy in coming home again after a run, and there is the parallel with the truckers death as a homegoing. Other possibilities I've used are the scripture about not being afraid the terrors along the way. Also used once about God's building a highway from Isaiah. Hope this helps. gladjoy
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 12:41:12 AM
One of my earliest Sunday School songs was 'Build on the Rock". It was great fun with the actions and the sudden clap on "earthquake shock". I know what that shock means having lived through a couple of earthquakes. It often unsettles your life and you realise that there is more depth to life that what you have previosuly recognised. In the children's sermon I will have a contest with rods,sand and a rock to see which tower survives the kids jumping up and down next to it - the one built on sand or rock.
When I think of examining my life I think of how solid are the foundations, how sturdy the walls are how strong the frame is. These count for nothing if I've built on sand. It's not what we've constructed but what we believe about the bedrock of our existence. Sometimes sand is just covering the bedrock - a little more depth and there is solid ground. What sand do we need to remove? Sand can look so much neater than rock. It can cover all the roughness and unevenness but it's the rock that is important in the deluge. Blessings Petereo.
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 04:44:53 AM
Hello, everyone. I've 'listened' to your converstions for many months, but usually it's been last minute, therefore little point saying anything! This weekend, in the UK and British Commonwealth countries, we're celebrating Queen Elizabeth II's Golden Jubilee. I'm looking at using the 'Union Jack' (British flag) and talking about symbols. But thanks for the 'coke'idea. Symbols represent the 'Real thing', but are not the real thing. Monarchy is now little more than a symbol, but it is importsnt, though not as important as 'Nike' etc. Do we sometimes/mostly use Christ and our 'religion' as a symbol, without daring to meet the 'Real Thing'? Rev Marg in Yorkshire (soon to be in Cumbria)
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 04:45:51 AM
Hello, everyone. I've 'listened' to your converstions for many months, but usually it's been last minute, therefore little point saying anything! This weekend, in the UK and British Commonwealth countries, we're celebrating Queen Elizabeth II's Golden Jubilee. I'm looking at using the 'Union Jack' (British flag) and talking about symbols. But thanks for the 'coke'idea. Symbols represent the 'Real thing', but are not the real thing. Monarchy is now little more than a symbol, but it is importsnt, though not as important as 'Nike' etc. Do we sometimes/mostly use Christ and our 'religion' as a symbol, without daring to meet the 'Real Thing'? Rev Marg in Yorkshire (soon to be in Cumbria)
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 04:49:55 AM
I meant to say 'not as important as 'Nike' etc. to our young people! And what happens when we look behind the symbol that is the British monarchy? Rev Marg
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 05:02:10 AM
Michelle,
Methinks your are an ELCA "Lutheran"
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 05:25:13 AM
OLAS,
I like your analogy to Karaoke. I believe it will make an effective illustration.
Michelle
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 07:12:31 AM
I am really struggling with this passage this week. When I think of obey, i think of weddings where people joke and say where is the "obey" part? I don't have a spiritual director, someone I choose to obeyso I don't have that experience. I have tried to live as a Christian and not obey and suffered from it. Yet, I also feel that there are many smug people who use this scripture to claim they are right and others are wrong, are false prophets. Being a female preacher I get this taught about me and our congregation. What they don't know is that when I wasn't obeying was when i was running from this call to ministry.
The other thing I think of is a story by Fred Craddock about a woman at the hospital who was so nervous and woirried, and he looked down and noticed all her reading material was magazines like "Teen Beat" -- fluff stuff.
I want to thank all of you ramblers out there. My head is swarming and you are helping me a great deal.
grace and joy, rachel
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 07:17:01 AM
Sally in GA asks, "How does one preach the need for Bible study without sounding like it's some sort of drudgery task that we must grit our teeth and white-knuckle it through?"
I came to the realization this week by reading this passage that even though we can do a lot of reading of the Bible and studying of the Bible on its most basic level all we know is about God, about Jesus, about the Jewish faith, about the early church, about the teachings of Jesus.
Yet, Jesus says "I did not know you." It is not enough to simply "know about Jesus" and say "Lord, Lord", we must "know Jesus" in a relationship. Scripture can lead us to that, but having a relationship comes from speaking with Jesus and fellowship in the presence of the Spirit. Living in the Spirit, constantly aware of the presence of God daily. We read the Scriptures for information and then prayerfully ask "Lord, what does this mean for me, for us?"
We can read the words and know not to build a house on the sand, yet still proceed to build our beach front home, rejecting the wise advise of the builder, then we know about house building, but when we build we do what we please according to our own ideas and desires.
Information is simply not enough. We must have a trusting relationship in order to application of the lesson.
<>< Kingdom DJ
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 08:19:54 AM
Michelle lamented: "'You don't have to believe it, you just have to do it.' I've heard these words so many times I'd like to shut my ears to the ones who proclaim them loudly in defense of a particular liturgical practice required in some of our denominations."
Pray tell! What liturgical practice might that be????
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 08:39:28 AM
Thanks for all your help. This is a great discussion this week. I wish I had more to contribute but had a second death this week in our congregation! Keep me in your prayers. Nancy-Wi
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 09:20:30 AM
Comparing this passage to the Deut. 11 passage, there is an element of choice involved in both. Moses says "I am setting before you today a blessing and curse." We choose to follow God's commandments and receive a blessing, or follow other gods and receive a curse.
In the same way Jesus also sets before us a choice: sand or rock. Both passages mention the need to obey and ACT, not simply to listen.
The choice reminds me of a cartoon I once saw where a man is confronted by a fork in the road. There is an arrow pointing one direction which says "My way," and another arrow pointing down the other road which says "Yahweh."
Blessings, Rev. Steph in MD
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 09:37:44 AM
Eric,
Do you really believe in that liturgical practice? Curious... Pr.del in Ia
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 12:19:49 PM
Much of our discussion sounds no different than what Brad Young writes in "Jesus and his Jewish Parables":
What is greater, study or action? Rabbi Tarfon said “Action is greater.” Rabbi Akiva said, “Study is greater.” Everyone responded and said “Greater is study for study leads to action.” In the Jerusalem Talmud it is accepted that study takes precedence over practice. Moses asked them, “Is it possible to observe [the teaching of the Torah] without hearing? Hearing leads to action. They repeated, “We will do and we will hear -- we will do what we hear (Exodus 24:7). Thus the verse is interpreted as meaning that the Israelites promised to ovey whatever they heard. <Brad H. Young>
It seems to me that the only way we "know" whether faith is in us is if we risk our formality and popularity and do something ..... pray, serve the poor, reach out to the lonely, etc. It is only in reaching out that we begin to "recognize" what is in us. We do this not to feel good about ourselves, but simply to know that what we "think" we believe, we live!
tom in ga
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 12:35:17 PM
Pr.del in Ia asked: "Do you really believe in that liturgical practice? Curious..."
Believe in it? Brother Del, I've seen it!
Actually, I don't know what it is yet ... as soon as Michelle tells us, I'll tell you.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 12:36:34 PM
I am struck at the similarity of this passage and another one closer to the end of the gospel, namely chap. 25.31-46. The assumption of innocence by association is firmly rejected. Matthew is careful, in his post-pauline writing to balance "justification by faith" and "recognition by deeds" Reading through James will likely give pause(even to such as Martin Luther!) to those who think that resting on a single confession of "Jesus in my heart" is enough to satisfy God's desire for us.
By the way, I have used the story of the three little pigs as a substitute for the Gospel lesson, imagining how Jesus would tell the story today. The bad/good foundation metaphor was certainly not unique to Jesus, and being the good teacher that he was, used common language and images to illustrate the basics of our spiritual life. The first of which, I suppose in this crazily distracted world, is simply paying attention.
Blessings,
Ed
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 12:37:13 PM
I am struck at the similarity of this passage and another one closer to the end of the gospel, namely chap. 25.31-46. The assumption of innocence by association is firmly rejected. Matthew is careful, in his post-pauline writing to balance "justification by faith" and "recognition by deeds" Reading through James will likely give pause(even to such as Martin Luther!) to those who think that resting on a single confession of "Jesus in my heart" is enough to satisfy God's desire for us.
By the way, I have used the story of the three little pigs as a substitute for the Gospel lesson, imagining how Jesus would tell the story today. The bad/good foundation metaphor was certainly not unique to Jesus, and being the good teacher that he was, used common language and images to illustrate the basics of our spiritual life. The first of which, I suppose in this crazily distracted world, is simply paying attention.
Blessings,
Ed
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 12:54:40 PM
I liked the comparision RAP in OH made between the foundation of the World Trade Center tower to Jesus' parable of house built on a foundation of rock. "See, even though the architects and contractors thought about a plane crashing into the Towers when they were built back in the 60’s and early 70’s, they could never have foreseen an airliner the size that hit them 30 years later. We too can not fathom the storms life may hand us... But, no matter what happened to those Towers, that foundation still is intact. The slurry wall that keeps the river in its place is still doing its job. Psalm46 states that “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
There's a facinating article written about the building of the foundation of the World Trade Center. It was written for the New Yorker in 1972 and can be found at: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?010924fr_archive02
Blessings, Rev. Steph in MD
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 01:07:50 PM
Greeting all, I am a brand new member to DPS. Thanks for all your contributions. Some of your comments have really helped me think through this passage that is proving to be a little harder to get at than I might have expected. OLAS' comment on "Karaoke Faith" was particularly intriguing to me. Through prayer and study I am moving beyond the "faith vs. works" dichotomy. A little about me as means of introduction (a bit off topic, I know) I am 37, male, pastor of a growing UM church in rural western NC. Duke Divinity grad. Part of clergy couple. Father of two preschoolers who spur much theological reflection. I often use Powerpoints, video clips, etc in preaching. Our worship style is what I would describe as "blended".
Blessings maidenites
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 01:18:22 PM
Brother Eric,
You've made me laugh out loud- just when I needed it. Thanks. :) Pr.del in IA
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 04:06:10 PM
I've just found your site and praise God as I too was struggling with this week's passage. Here in UK ,despite the Queen's Golden Jubilee, THE topic on TV and on the street is World Cup Soccer!! Having seen a news item tonight on the Japanese obsession with certain English players, it reminded me of a spoof article I wrote many years ago [30!]whilst serving in the RAF. It was about an ancient religion rediscovered in 3000 BC by archaeologists, Soccer! The priests, accolites and worshippers and the forms of worship. If we had half as much passion in our churches as in the soccer grounds, the world would be on fire. Sand or rock? The whole nation was plunged into despair when Beckham [super star player for England] broke a bone in his foot and newspapers even had a picture of the foot on the front pages asking readers to place their hands on the foot and "pray" for healing in time for the World cup on Saturday!! It seems their prayers have been answered. Thanks for your inspiration. I WILL be back frequently. God bless you all. Big Anne, Barnsley, England
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 06:14:03 PM
This is desperate ... what is the hymn, chorus: On Christ the solid rock I stand, all else is sinking sand?
PM/KS
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 07:01:28 PM
PM/KS I think this is the hymn:
"My Hope Is Built On Nothing Less Than Jesus' blood and righteousness....
Joe in VA
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 08:19:13 PM
This is perhaps a bit of a different slant, but thought it might jog some creative juices.
About six years ago I was doing some interim work in a church where the pastor had been removed for sexual misconduct (long story behind it as usual, but won't go into that). As I listened to the stories of many persons who had been 'counseled' by him, I began to realize that he had been spiritually and psychologically abusive to folk. They had transferred their worship from God to him, and he fed off of that. I can remember thinking at that the time that I was encountering something that was truly evil in what had happened in that parish. This pastor was also a survivor of some pretty severe childhood abuse (often the case of those who go on to abuse). But the relevance to this week's lection is this: my faith was really shaken by what I encountered as I sought to bring some healing to the congregation. The image that struck me was that my faith, which I had seen as rock solid at it's core, despite many doubts about many things, was now more like molten lava,shifting beneath me. It was a very scary time. It took about six months of seeing a therapist and spiritual mentor, and having a strong supportive community of spiritual sisters to help me find the solid rock of faith again. But now the shape of the rock is different. And I'm much more careful in my own ministry when it comes to counseling. As pastors we have the potential to do great good, or great harm.
Revsophia
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 08:54:44 PM
Eric in KS and Pr.del in Ia,
Yes, ELCA "Lutheran"
The liturgical practice to which I alluded is the ordination in the the Historic Episcopate, allowed but previously not required in the ELCA. Now it is required (except in the case of a newly adopted exception clause, that may or may not ever be put into practice, depending on the bishops). The party line is, "You don't have to believe it, you just have to do it." I have nothing against the practice if it is not required, because I believe the Spirit works both inside and outside human institutions, and that signs and symbols do not guarantee truth.
A seminary professor once related the story that a pastor had explained the reason for the two candles on the altar, that they symbolize the two natures of Christ. The professor assured us that the real reason for the two candles on the altar (at least originally) was so that the priest could see the book!
This text says to me that whenever we are certain that our own way is right, maybe we had better watch out, because our own way is no better than the sand. It's okay to have a little sand at our feet, to do things differently in different expressions of the church, as long as we are all firmly anchored (beneath the sand) to the only solid foundation, the rock that is Christ.
How to do the will of the Father is not always obvious. Sometimes it may be to hunker down, and pull back from society, and the "anything goes" proclaimed by society. At other times, it may be to "do as the Romans do" in order to gather more people to Christ. The sands will shift, but the foundation will remain. "Built on a rock, the Church shall stand, even when steeples are falling."
Michelle
Date: 30 May, 2002
Time: 11:19:09 PM
Several notes to several folks -
tom in ga, I preached a sermon once called "The Gospel According to the 3 Little Pigs", but it was based on 1 Cor 3:10-15 where Paul says we all build on the foundation laid by Jesus, but it matters how we build, whether with precious stones, or wood or straw. See the paralel? Might be cogent to present text too. Faith is foundational, but our works do matter.
Welcome, Big Anne from Barnsdale! I preached one similar to that, too. But in rural U.S., it was all about Softball, which so dominated life that we had to schedule Vacation Bible School and revivals so as not to interfere with BALL. Title -"Too Bad it(Church) isn't a Game". I was leaving that appointment anyway!
Thanks, Ed, for one phrase. You described what would "satify God's desire for us." How often we see it framed as satifying "God's demand of us." Thanks for the focus.
OLAS, Yes! What everybody else said.
RAP in OH, and RevSteph in MD, Yes, and Yes, for the Trade Center reference and background.
RevAmy, I like that between Saying and Doing, you are focussing on Being. I always felt that being was attained when saying and doing meshed. I also am trying to remeber an old joke formed by 3 quotes about doing and being. The first 2relate to being coming out of doing and doing flowing out of being. the third quote is Frank Sinatra, "Do, be, do, be, do" Is that enough to jog anyone's memory of what the heck I'm talking about? tom in TN(USA)
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 03:19:40 AM
A thought struck me yesterday whilst watching the news reports about the final symbolic ceremonies at Ground Zero, or 'The Zone' as it was referred to. It was said that there is no longer general agreement about rebuilding the Twin Towers, and that a park may be laid out instead. Are the people struggling with symbolism? They can't call it 'The Peace Park', as that might denote submission in some sense. Should it be called 'The Park of Defiance'in light of the general response to September 11th?. Perhaps it could include some kind of exhibition or conference centre where the values of freedom, equality and universal 'brotherhood' are promoted? Just struggling with the whole notion of names/authority/symbolism. Rev Marg
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 03:25:57 AM
A thought struck me yesterday whilst watching the news reports about the final symbolic ceremonies at Ground Zero, or 'The Zone' as it was referred to. It was said that there is no longer general agreement about rebuilding the Twin Towers, and that a park may be laid out instead. Are the people struggling with symbolism? They can't call it 'The Peace Park', as that might denote submission in some sense. Should it be called 'The Park of Defiance'in light of the general response to September 11th?. Perhaps it could include some kind of exhibition or conference centre where the values of freedom, equality and universal 'brotherhood' are promoted? Just struggling with the whole notion of names/authority/symbolism. Rev Marg p.s. Big Anne, I've seen a cup final (between Middlesbrough and Chelsea)described in pseudo-religious terms, with the supporters referred to as 'worshippers' and the stadium as 'The Cathredral' in a local newspaper. It was scary!
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 03:30:27 AM
Sorry about the repeats. I'm having problems with my internet connection! Rev Marg
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 05:56:39 AM
Pr. del....
Now that Michelle has told us that the "liturgical practice" in question is ordination by bishops in the historic episcopate (i.e., apostolic succession)...
Yep, I believe in it. After all, that's part of Episcopal Church polity, ecclesiology, sacramental theology, etc. And I (to quote the prayer book) "solemnnly engage[d] to conform to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the Episcopal Church" when I was ordained.
I believe that bishops are not necessary to the existence of the church or of valid ministry -- but I do believe they and their ministry contribute to the "plene esse" of the church.
'Nuff said -- this isn't the place for a discussion or debate on this topic, save for a side note to Michelle: If you don't believe in it, don't do it. In fact, why don't we all just admit that "Called to Common Mission" isn't working and cancel it?
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 06:14:47 AM
Eric,
Like Michelle, I too am ELCA Lutheran. Without making a value judgement on the historic episcopate, in what I hear and experience CCM has turned out to be an oxymoron- that is- it has caused more division within our denomination that anything else we have done so far.
It's like we threw too mud sand (by the way we went about passing the resolution relying on stacking the voting members rather than relying on the Holy Spirirt) into the foundation and there is a danger of crumbling. Add that to the things we're trying to tackle by 2005 and our grand experiement in "unified" Lutheranism (for better or worse)will probably collapse.
At my ordination a Catholic priest and an Episcopal priest and of course several Lutheran pastors and our bishop did the laying of the hands. I think I'm employable in a number of places :)
Pr.del in IA
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 08:36:40 AM
I don't want to degrade the text study to a debate about the topic I brought up either. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, but it did seem to fit into the discussion at the time.
We all seem to work together quite well in our discussion here on the texts, with many different denominations represented. I hope we can continue to do so.
Michelle
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 09:07:32 AM
On the contrary Michelle, you spoke your mind with integrity, and we are all unified on the rock of Jesus’ teachings. And in the end, that is what matters and that is what the text is about.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 09:56:35 AM
On the contrary Michelle, you spoke your mind with integrity, and we are all unified on the rock of Jesus’ teachings. And in the end, that is what matters and that is what the text is about.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 12:05:10 PM
Does anyone know how the last verse to "The Wise Man Built his house upon the Rock" ends? It starts with, "So build your life on the Lord Jesus Christ.." GB in MI
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 12:11:27 PM
I've put off the series until next week.
I like the churchianity and "too bad it's not a game" themes.
This, has been used against me, too, as a female pastor, and my churches. To take this quote out of context makes the Gospel seem every bit as legalistic as the Law.
I might add, reading the discussion, "doctrine-ianity." Anyone can be prone to this - fundamentalists, evangelicals, liberals, "high" churches, and "low" churches ... I've known plenty of liberal people who are every bit as "black or white" and insistent on a dogma as conservatives. And I find it interesting how liturgical non-liturgical churches really are. The liturgy just looks different. Another Craddock quote from a sermon he preached at Candler: "(these people) were non-denominational, which means that they were as denominational as they come." The example was in their insistence to his mother that she be baptized by immersion.
However it's expressed, saying "Lord, Lord," is about more than belief and practice. I hold that it's about a faith we can't quite define, and to attempt its definition is to become the thing that we're trying to preach against. That is, valuing practice over belief or belief over practice. Faith is both/and and neither/nor. It's a conviction AND an action.
So ... thanks for letting me think aloud. I think I'm going to explore Churchianity/doctrineianity/and Christianity, the practice that flows forth from a profound faith. Something in me resists issuing a warning, though, "Too bad it's not a game ... " and yet, I do detect a warning in Jesus' words.
Sally in GA (and on the mend, praise God)
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 12:21:46 PM
Oh - another Craddock example, for anyone serving communion ...
A small church he served in Tennessee (maybe his first, or one of his first), had an influx of itinerant workers come through. They set up trailers on rented property, and a few of them even came to worship. Eventually, some sought membership. A council meeting was quickly called and it was decided that only property holders could have a vote, or become members. Years later, he passed where the church used to be and it was a BBQ place with a big sign out front, "BBQ, all you can eat for $4.95" (or however much it cost). "There were some of the most gosh-awful people you ever saw in there," he says.
(Now, pardon me if I don't recall the quote ver batim) - Craddock reflects, "Isn't it interesting that the church who would deny the bread of life to a brother or sister now offers all you can eat for anyone who wants it."
(read it years ago in a resource called "LectionAid")
Sally in GA
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 12:32:26 PM
I just re-read my post and offer apologies to any non-denominational person in here. Taken out of the context of the original sermon, that sounded like a criticism of non-denominational brothers and sisters. Of course the point is that we all must look at our own tendency towards churchianity before we insist on non-churchianity. Because the non-churchianity then becomes churcianity. Same thing with dogma and other concepts like it: as soon as we decide on non-dogmatism we have become dogmatic.
I must still have a fever ... I'm talking in circles! Sally in GA
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 12:50:45 PM
Michelle:
I second what Pr. del in IA said. I wasn't offended by your comments on the historic episcopate (hope you weren't by mine). I would never admonish anyone "You don't have to believe it, you just have to do it." about that or anything else. I find that as offensive as you do!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 01:04:12 PM
GB in MI
Is this it?
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ,
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ,
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ,
And the blessings come tumbling down.
Oh the blessings come down, as the prayers go up
Oh the blessings come down, as the prayers go up
Oh the blessings come down, as the prayers go up
So build your house on the Lord.
Now there's some thoughts for the theology discussion... we do sing our theology, don't we?
Just another Tom.
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 01:05:31 PM
GB in MI
Is this it?
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ,
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ,
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ,
And the blessings come tumbling down.
Oh the blessings come down, as the prayers go up
Oh the blessings come down, as the prayers go up
Oh the blessings come down, as the prayers go up
So build your house on the Lord.
Now there's some thoughts for the theology discussion... we do sing our theology, don't we?
Just another Tom.
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 01:42:26 PM
Thank you to all, for the many intriguing posts this week, especially to Eric in KS, Pr. Del in Ia, and Sally in GA, as well as whoever first put in about Churchianity (I didn't read back far enough to find it specifically at this point). I'm finally beginning to look forward to preaching on this text this week.
Michelle
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 02:02:24 PM
Upon first glance at this passage the things that caught my attention were:
1) The fact that Jesus comments, “I never knew you…” to those who claimed to have acted in his name. 2) Those who hear the words of Jesus and put them into action are the ones who are wise (prepared for the storms ahead). 3) The crowds were impressed, not by what Jesus said, but by the authority (or the way) in which he said it.
Point one made me think that maybe the emphasis should be on having a relationship (with Jesus)… I’m all for that anyway. And Point three, I saw as supporting this idea, because the crowd (I felt) was doing a “spin” job on what Jesus was saying – as the News Anchors do after State of the Unions – commenting on how things were said and basically ignoring the substance of the speech. So I thought it was safe to conclude that the crowd was unlikely to take point two to heart… they would not hear and act on the words, because they had no real relationship with Jesus, they were just intrigued by his manner/authority.
But after looking a little closer at the passage, in context as the closing of the Sermon on the Mount… and remembering that truths of this sermon - like the Beatitudes - are true, not because of some natural phenomenon, but because of who proclaims them (The Blessed are blessed, because he said so – not because they just naturally are), I wondered about my opinion of the crowd
Maybe the crowd had it right for once… Authority is key to relationship as well as hearing and doing.
But who wants to give up their authority for his? Now that's a foundational, rock solid question.
Another Tom
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 02:15:09 PM
I think the issue of grace vs. works attributed to this text is non-existent. After all, those who are rejected here have been doing plenty of works - what anyone would consider to be GOOD works! In the end, good works and good words are both part of the building material - but WHERE DO WE BUILD? True faith can onle be grounded in Jesus Christ. Only those actions that grow out of a life built upon that Rock are truly good works.
I think what is most striking about this text is its comment upon the authority that Jesus taught with. Unlike the scribes, whose authority for teaching was based upon God's given Law (Torah), Jesus is his own authority. To those who listened to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, it must have seemed as if a radical blasphemer had come among them! Jesus was obviously placing his teaching above the Torah. No wonder the crowd was 'astounded'!
Doesn't this say something to us and our often-hidebound Christianity? We make adherence to the letter of the Law (and we can be quite guilty of turning the New Testament into Law!)more important than discerning and obeying the will of the Living Christ as the Spirit witnesses that will to us. So, we cling to the scripture when it suits us, and completely ignore it (or large chunks of it) when it hinders us.
For Jesus to say "I never knew you" means, not that he doesn't recognize us, but that he never enjoyed the kind of loving, intimate relationship with us that husband-wife, parent-child, or close friends enjoy with one another. Knowing the holy Book God has given us is good - knowing the holy One God sent us is better. Ken in WV
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 02:56:34 PM
Just a couple of comments for Friday night. When I was reading through the discussion earlier today, I was reminded of something from my high school history classes. Growing up in North Carolina, we had to learn the state motto which translates "To be rather than to seem." No matter how fancy the house was that the fool built, because of the foundation it could only seem strong. It could never be strong.
I just got back from the funeral of a young man (38) who lost a fight to cancer. I didn't know him personally as he attended another church but my members have kept him on our prayer list for most of the two years I've been there so I felt like I needed to be there. The stories that were shared were about a man who spent so much time "being" that he didn't have time to "seem." He didn't hide it when he was in pain but it didn't stop him from caring about and caring for others either. He didn't ask "why me" but prayed that something might be found in his illness that might help others. He wasn't eager to die but he wasn't afraid of it either. I guess you could say that he knew what his house was built on and faced the floods with the assurance that his Rock would hold him up.
Just some stray thoughts. Mike from Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 02:59:42 PM
Mt.7:21-27: Ramblings and Musings... Please help sort.. This text is conclusion of Sermon on the Mount which is 'sandwiched' between end of ch 4 where Jesus is 'doing'(healing and curing)& ch 8:1-2 where he's 'healing' again.
Maybe Jesus was a 'doer' because he was a 'hearer':rooted in the Father's heart Jn. 1:18 ('He lived close to the Father's heart' NRSV) Altho, I like the KJV ('..the Son, who is in the bosom of the Father..') Maybe our 'doing' should also be 'based' on foundation of relationship with Christ (rock).
(v22) Those who reminded Jesus of 'doing great things (dunamis in Gk) such as prophecying, casting out demons' were asked to 'depart.' Jesus called them 'workers of iniquity' or 'evildoers.'Gk meaning here is: 'making gains, trading, doing business'. A word used in mercenary terms. Not 'dunamis.'
When the foundation isn't based on rock of relationship with Christ (rooted and grounded in love of Christ- Eph.3:17) our motives get skewed. Our doings are 'based'or 'built' on shifting sands of current trends, markets, & fragile egos. People become ladder rungs which are 'used' to climb the ladder of religious success.
But, if we take the time to first dig the foundation until we hit rock, then it is in the digging (the seeking, searching of God's heart thru prayer, reading Bible, spending time in God's presence) that we learn to stand altho the 'rains, floods, & winds' beat against us.
The word 'founded on the rock'(v25)is in a rarely used Gk tense (pluperfect) that describes an event that has already taken place; an event viewed as having been once and for all accomplished in past time.That's solid. Something to build on. If we've already laid the foundation (with help of the Spirit) then we don't have to be afraid of what comes. And, we don't have to keep trying to reinvent ourselves or the wheel. Our choice precedes the storm.
This Sun. most H.S. graduates are recognized. I wonder if their future would be more solid if they check out the foundation of their lives. If they make a decision to remain chaste based on Christ as their rock foundation before going off to school, then when the 'flood' comes and presses them to give in, they can 'stand firm' on the rock. I know it sounds simplistic, but it should work. Our faith in not in ourselves but in Christ, the foundation.
OK. If you're still awake: Here's the other slice of the 'sandwich' text (based on Mt. 8:1,2): In ch 8, Jesus comes down off the mtn & is approached by a leper who says, "Lord, if you choose, you can make me clean." Without having to re-decide what to do, Jesus 'stretched out his hand (past tense of verb)..touched him (past tense again) and says, 'I will' (present). Christ's decision in the present seems based on the past... Still musing....Rev LL in GA
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 05:46:46 PM
I realize that it is late in the week, but I wonder if the question to ask in our preaching this week is: "If this building and all that comes with it were destroyed would we still HAVE a church here?" What constitutes church? We get so caught up in our place of worship--our buildings. Sometimes I think we would be better if we did not have stationary gathering places. Something to be said for those tents, maybe. I don't know. I'm just airing my thoughts. We seem to put so much time and energy into our facilities and into "keeping the church open" which translates into having a building and a pastor. Does anyone understand what I am saying? lp in CO
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 06:25:07 PM
I got 2/3 the way thru this great discussion and decided to add in my 2 bits before I forgot them -- what a particularly great week!
As to the rock, and the foundation, my understanding is that when we build our faith, our lives, Jesus is the cornerstone. 1 Cor 3:11 tells us he is the foundation, which to my mind tells us that as we follow him and move closer to living a Christian life, then our lives become more real, more solid. Ill winds will come and we will feel them -- we might even keel over temporarily, but the solid foundation that is Christ will sustain us where nothing else can. With Chrit, then, we turn our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh -- we become real and our lives mean something more than the ability to purchase the latest technology or learn the macarena (oops -- that's old now) -- our lives take on shades of meaning that yied joy in the good times and enough peace to get through the difficult times.
But if we are to create those solid rock lives with Christ, then we must stop saying that we will live as Christians in the future -- that we will mend fences with our relatives & neighbors, that we will right the old wrongs we have done, that we will stand up for the oppressed, that we will actually tithe this year, etc. We stop saying it and we do it. Might be works, might be grace....
well, that's it. now to post and go on reading. thanks again, all, for an extraordinary week!
To Eric: When I ask questions, I always start with something simple like the three names of the Trinity. then if there is dead silence from my episcopalians, i make the sign of the cross and ask them what it stands for (no kidding) -- probably your folks have ideas, but they don't want to be wrong...
aloha,
HW in HI
Date: 31 May, 2002
Time: 07:31:22 PM
Just another Tom
Thanks! Now that I see the words (and theology), maybe I'll just stick to the first two verses and finish up talking with the kids! GB in MI
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 03:25:58 AM
I'm a little late but I wanted to comment on Tom's attempt to get the congregation to discuss the Trinity. I a small group setting I asked the group not to discuss it but to diagram it. Actually I asked them to draw a diagram illustrating the relationship between God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and an individual christian. Before sending off to work I diagrammed our church on the board three ways, as a Venn diagram, as an organization chart and as and information flow chart. Then I divided them into teams of 3 or 4, gave each group two poster size sheets of plastic, and some erasable white board markers and 20 minutes. The discussion within the teams and the resulting diagrams revealed a great deal of thought and insight. Joe in Vermont
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 06:39:56 AM
Mike in Soddy Daisy, concerning your 38 yr. old neighbor - Maybe it was because his house was built upon the rock that he was not afraid to go "upstairs". Hmmm... might just be a sermon point. Thanks.
Just another Tom, your sign-off made me laugh. True, there are numerous T/toms here, so many we've squeezed out the Dick and Harrys totally. But don't sat JUST another Tom. That reminds me of my all time favorite dialogue blurb from The Beverly Hillbillys; Banker Drysdale is introducing Jed to a wealthy friend, who extends his hand and notes,"I'm Justin Andrews." Jed replies,"Don't let that bother ya none. I ain't nothin' but a Clampett, myself."(Isn't it amazing what sticks in your mind 30 plus years? I can't remember street names 2 minutes.) tom in TN(USA)
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 08:35:37 AM
Pr.del in Ia wrote We don't like the four-lettered word "Obey"
We may not like it, but we must accept it for what it means, just as we accept “The Spirit [Ruach] of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Ruach = wind, spirit, breath any or all can be separated or joined
Shema = HearObey both and NEVER separated
The basic statement of faith!
Deuteronomy 6:4ff ¶ Hear, [Shema] O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
H2O can be separated or can be in different forms. Shema cannot be separated into anything and be Shema
weldiger in WNC
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 09:39:38 AM
Sally in GA, Love the Craddock story about the BBQ place! That'll preach at some point. lp in CO
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 12:49:54 PM
I've called mine "A Firm Foundation" (and no, we're not going to sing "How Firm a Foundation," although it might fit OK). I'm going to borrow the language of a colleague of mine, "I'm going to marry up" the Gospel and the Epistle, and borrow from the Bandy seminar.
He puts forth a crucial question or not - in ministry to the Gentiles: "Are we going to be in ministry with Jesus or not?" In other words, we can't kind of do it. We can't "grow" a church if all we're doing is attempting to get new members - especially if we're expecting them to come and be just like us. That's the churchianity. The doctrine-ianity is about getting people to conform to our way of thinking. More than about right belief, or orthodoxy, being correct, or belief ends up taking the place of faith. We might point to the phrase, "all have sinned and fall short ..." Christianity is ministry to the Gentiles.
And it's not a game - so that we can enjoy more peoples' company. We can do that in a garden or bridge club. It's about inviting people into the discipleship we're privileged to be a part of.
Sally in gA with no more fever, but 2 12-yr-old girls to contend with tonight. The 12-yr-olds aren't the problem, though; they're self-maintaining. It's the 4-yr-old who wants to join them that causes the ruckus.
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 04:09:18 PM
I know this seems late but it is still early Saturday in Hawaii. In regards to the faith v. works issue I am reminded of the image of Christianity being a boat with two oars in the water, faith and works, and without one the church just goes in circles. I also keep getting this memory of the many times I have been on the beach talking as the waves lapped about my feet, slowly pulling the sand out from under me. Sand is such a good image for this parable. Perhaps God can take the sand and make it concrete.
Just musing here in Paradise with a sermon hanging over me.
B Rock
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 04:31:02 PM
The gospel is so easy and so difficult at the same tme .... you would think that if all is grace/gift then all we have to do is to receive it in our hearing, but low and behold, we must do something! Now that is the hook, the catch, I thought all I had to do was to confess my sins and receive the Lord Jesus in my heart, I didn't know that I had to put my light on a lampstand!!!
tom in ga
P.S. What kind of relevant examples are all of you presenting in the morning?
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 06:09:01 PM
B Rock in Hawaii:
I'm preaching about another boat - the ark, in the OT lection, and Walter Bruggeman has helped me immensly! But I noticed your faith/works thing about the oars. I tend to think of the little boat called the corricle (sp?) in celtic tradition - a tiny boat, leather-covered, I think, into which one climbs when seeking direction in life. It has no way to control its progress, neither oars nor rudder nor sails, and wherever it washes up on the shore, that's where one is meant by God to be. Neither faith nor works, simply and entirely the grace of God. Neat, huh? kbc in sc
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 06:26:47 PM
To all in the "I don't care if you believe it, just do it" discussion: John Wesley was once told "Preach faith 'til you have it. Then when you have it, you will not be able to help preaching it." Was he just doing it without believing it?
Many of the Craddock stories are in a wonderful book called (I think) Craddock Stories.
I should ask this question on the OT side, but it's not very crowded over there: does anyone know all the words to "Noah, he built him, he built him an arkey, arkey"?
One more thing, kind of hanging over me so maybe I'll post it next week also: Francis Kline, Abbot of the Cistercian Monastery Mepkin Abbey in SC, will begin chemotherapy for chronic lymphocystic leukemia on Monday. He's 51, a runner, a vegetarian, a musician (terriffic organist) and the spiritual leader of a community of about 30 monks and many guests over the years. I would be grateful for your prayers for him and his community.
kbc in sc
Date: 01 June, 2002
Time: 06:43:31 PM
Do Be Do Be Do That is the question Do Be Do Be Do That I'm asking Do Be Do Be Do We know?
The absence of music limits this. Imagine Frank Sinatra singing. We are always back to the question whether being or doing is more important in the Kingdom of God. Back to Augustine, "Love God and do what you want." Sue in Cuba, KS
Date: 02 June, 2002
Time: 05:12:53 AM
kbc in sc
The Lord said to Noah, “There’s gonna be a floody, floody.”
Lord said to Noah, “There’s gonna be a floody, floody.
Get those children out of the muddy, muddy, children of the Lord.”
So Noah, he built him, he built him and arky arky
Noah, he built him, he built him and arky arky
Built it out of hickory barky, barky. Children of the Lord.
The animals, they came in, they came in by twosies, twosies,
Animals, they came in, they came in by twosies, twosies,
Hippopotamus and Kangaroosies, ‘roosies, Children of the Lord.
I have feeling there are more verses, but I can’t remember them right now. Plus, you might want to change hickory barky to gopher barky, but that the way I remember the song. Michelle
Date: 02 June, 2002
Time: 03:14:36 PM
Michelle,
This was THE favorite VBS song in my 1st appointment. There are indeed other verses, of which I can remember these two;
It rained and it poured for forty long daysies, daysies,
rained and it poured for forty long daysies, daysies,
like to drove those animals crazy, crazy,
Children of the lord.
Then there is probably another verse about getting out, but the last verse we sang was;
Then Noah, he builded, hebuilded an altar, altar,
Noah, he builded, he builded an altar, altar,
Gave God thanks for his sons and daughters, daughters,
Children of the lord.
Tom in TN(USA)
Date: 01 October, 2003
Time: 09:52:09 AM
I love god
Date: 01 October, 2003
Time: 09:52:21 AM
do You
Date: 01 October, 2003
Time: 09:52:41 AM
that is what i thought
Date: 22 June, 2004
Time: 10:13:17 AM
Defindation of the name Nicholas