Date: 06 Sep 2002
Time: 21:18:56
When I reflect upon Matthew 6:14-15 (where my sermon begins) I find myself wondering that when it says that we "will not be forgiven unless we forgive others," if that cannot be taken to be a description of what happens vice a mandate. By that I mean, if one cannot take a posture of forgiveness and nurture that forgiveness in their hearts (for others or themselves) how can they possibly receive the forgiveness others may wish to offer. To receive forgiveness is to "admit" that there is a need for forgiveness. A heart so hardened as to not recognize the need for one's own forgiveness cannot possibly have it in them to forgive others. So, vice being causative it would seem that there is more of a natural synergy of "forgiveness experienced here (within myself or expressed towards another) means forgiveness experienced there (within oneself or toward another).
Date: 06 Sep 2002
Time: 22:31:19
When I reflect upon Matthew 6:14-15 (where my sermon begins) I find myself wondering that when it says that we "will not be forgiven unless we forgive others," if that cannot be taken to be a description of what happens vice a mandate. By that I mean, if one cannot take a posture of forgiveness and nurture that forgiveness in their hearts (for others or themselves) how can they possibly receive the forgiveness others may wish to offer. To receive forgiveness is to "admit" that there is a need for forgiveness. A heart so hardened as to not recognize the need for one's own forgiveness cannot possibly have it in them to forgive others. So, vice being causative it would seem that there is more of a natural synergy of "forgiveness experienced here (within myself or expressed towards another) means forgiveness experienced there (within oneself or toward another).
Bob in Okinawa
Date: 07 Sep 2002
Time: 16:21:04
Pulpit in ND: Win some, lose some. I have beat myself up over the years. You can try to go over and talk to them. They may not want that. Some people I think are just looking for a reason to leave, someone to blame it on. It was mentioned about people with laundry lists. You were the last on the list. It really is there problem. I had a guy who tried taking over a Sunday School class discussion. One of the members of the class told him to shut up. I was not in class that day. Preaching for the UCC church down the street before my own. Somehow I got blamed even though I wasn't even in the building. I tried and tried with this guy. Finally, I stopped beating myself up. PH in OH
Date: 07 Sep 2002
Time: 16:36:14
I can't help wondering if the impact of "70 times 7" isn't a bit watered down in the computer age. I'm sure that when Jesus said it, his hearers thought the number was infinite. But now, I'm sure half the people in our congregation could put together a simple spreadsheet, indexed by individual, so that they can be sure to catch anyone who's trying to be forgiven for the 491st time! Seems like maybe we can contrast our human desire to keep score with Jesus' real message here -- forgiveness neverending.
Just some early thoughts as I think about where I'm going with this one.
MDWELPIS in Washington State
Date: 07 Sep 2002
Time: 16:43:29
Further thoughts after reading the "old" posts on this passage from the previous discussion: I suspect most of us struggle with a fear of hypocrisy on this text (if we don't, then that's probably a different problem). This is one of those passages that is both humbling and hopeful.
I can't help thinking that when it comes to God's patience with me, even 70 X 7 probably isn't enough. Heck, most days I've probably blown through that quota between breakfast and dinner!
MDWELPIS in Washington State
Date: 07 Sep 2002
Time: 16:43:46
Further thoughts after reading the "old" posts on this passage from the previous discussion: I suspect most of us struggle with a fear of hypocrisy on this text (if we don't, then that's probably a different problem). This is one of those passages that is both humbling and hopeful.
I can't help thinking that when it comes to God's patience with me, even 70 X 7 probably isn't enough. Heck, most days I've probably blown through that quota between breakfast and dinner!
MDWELPIS in Washington State
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 11:39:04
MDWELPIS in Washington State
I think that 7 is the numer of "completion" or "wholeness". 70 times 7 would probably the Hebrew way of speaking of the duration of creation, or on and on...
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 13:11:40
Peter, did you start all over again? Are you "listening" with the third ear? Practicing forgiveness is practicing the presence of Christ!If the "koinonia" comprises congregational life, then sacramental spirituality of the Incarnation is pacticed, the imatitation of Christ is practiced. Being/Becoming the Word we proclaim in the "kerygma" is as imperative, if not more so, than simply verbalization in giving lip service tot he Word. (Beginnning reflections in light of today's reading of "starting all over again" when the issue is not resolved between brothers and sisters of the faith, PaideiaSCO in north GA mts)
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 16:44:25
Pr.del in Ia:
So if we focus on the meaning behind "7" then Peter's answer was a "perfect" one, and Jesus demanded even more?
It's interesting -- I preach from the NRSV but hadn't looked at it yet. It translates the key number as "77" (with "70 X 7" offered as an alternate reading). The RSV did just the opposite. Since I was already planning on suggesting that if we focus on the new number we're missing the point, I think I'm going to start by talking about the NRSV having reduced our "forgiveness burden" by 413. Of course, that also offers us a bit less -- I can probably blow past being forgiven by God 77 times before I even get out of bed.
MDWElpis in Washington State
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 16:49:30
My wife pointed out that this story that passed through our e-mail accounts seems appropriate to forgiveness:
'An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."'
I'm skeptical of e-mail messages, so I have no idea if this has anything to do with any Cherokee, old or otherwise. But it's a good story and I'll probably use it Sunday.
MDWElpis in Washington State
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 18:14:07
MDWElpis in Washington State - thanks for the struggling wolves story, it sure works to illustrate this text. Peter asks this question right after Jesus has given the "formula" for settling disputes within the church. The Jesus formula is quite different from the world's formula. And now Jesus is going one step further with a different view on forgiveness as well.
I serve a charge with five churches. This was once a thriving area, but the economy killed it years ago and then strife in the church took care of the rest. They now need only a part-time pastor and there are many members who are holding tight to old hurts and use them as justification to create new hurts. Along comes brand new-to-the-pulpit kat, left to discover things one hurt after another. Counting it all joy, I will not honor anything that does not honor Christ.
Today I hit them pretty hard with a call to follow Jesus to settle things, not the world. Now that I see this text for next Sunday I am afraid that I am going to beat them up. At the same time, I feel compelled to be faithful to what God puts in front of me. I pray that the wisdom shared here will help me to do just that!
Thank you all for your faithfulness and input!
katinPA
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 19:08:32
Two small-fry have an older brother who is a bully, and he's always beating them up. One day they are coming home from Sunday school, and the lesson has been on this Gospel reading where Peter comes to Christ and asks how often one should forgive his brother when he has sinned against him. And Christ replies not seven times, but seventy times seven.
And the two children as they walk along are puzzling over how they can apply that story to their big brother. And one says, "We'll, keep a book, and we'll write down in it every time we forgive him."
"Yeah," says the smaller child, "and when it’s 490 times he'd better watch out!"
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 08 Sep 2002
Time: 19:53:37
This account omits any indication that there has been an apology or a request for forgiveness. That seems to be a big factor in lots of minds around here. If someone doesn't ask for forgiveness, is "forgiveness" then primarily for the sake of the one holding the hurt/wound?
I think of congregations who have been wounded by predatory pastors and pastors who have been harmed by predatory parishes or parishioners; neither "offender"perceives a need to apologize--"they haven't done anything 'wrong.'"
The parable's punchline seems to underline the previous "binding and loosing" texts. And in the parable,the lord is doing unto the mean-spirited miserly slave what the mean-spirited miserly one did to the fellow slave.
Actually this is a terrifying text. Is it supposed to be read as hyperbole? Or is forgiveness meant to be so severe a necessity for the early church that no wiggle room is given?
And how does this text illustrate the grace of God? God's grace is given in God's showing mercy, but mercy can be refused. This portion of the text has the look of a line drawn in cement, not in the sand. Big gulp.
Aslanclan
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 05:08:42
The story of the unforgiving slave and his fate makes me think it's time for my annual sermon on the Lord's Prayer. I have found it helpful to regularly remind the congregation of the power of those amazing words of Jesus; particularly, "forgive us our trespasses and we forgive those who trespass against us". I have come to understand over the years that the slave's fate is less cause and effect than a view of the inability of a person who is unforgiving to honestly repent and seek forgiveness him/herself. Pastor Rick in Fl.
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 08:09:28
Off topic... Do any of you know of a web site that contains the kinds of things you put on the back page of bulletins? We use plain paper for our bulletins and I've been using the back page for the liturgy but am planning on compressing it so that it all fits on the inside. Some time ago I found a website that had good content for a back page. When I found it I didn't want it. Now I want it and I can't find it. Thanks for your help! Mark in WI
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 17:43:03
Maybe the message is about us asking for forgiveness. The past year after 9/11 we have been seeking others to tell us they are sorry, how could they do this to such innocent people. We have every right to to angry, but maybe we should be thinking about how we have hurt others and manybe we should be telling them we are sorry and asking them to forgive us. Phil from MT
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 18:23:53
Mark in WI -
I use the back of the bulletin for our prayer list, upcoming events and a quote or two from Scripture or a spiritual writer. Always one quote on prayer, if room one on the topic of the week. I don't think these sites are what you had in mind, but perhaps they can help you a bit.
Ihttp://www.catholic1.com/bulletins/sun24a/index.html
http://www.homiliesbyemail.com/leaf/leafdec2001.html
katinPA
Date: 09 Sep 2002
Time: 23:53:32
Pastor Rick in FL-I hear the words of the Lord's Prayer in this passage, too. I wonder if there are other parts of the Sermon on the Mount which show up in this Fourth Discourse? I'm too bleary-brained tonight to think it through...except, blessed are the merciful... Aslanclan
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 07:05:42
Mark in MI: I Hope this helps: http://www.help4editors.com/ Pastor Rick in FL
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 08:20:35
oops. Mark in WI. This computer doesn't spell any better than my last one. Pastor Rick in FL.
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 08:54:46
The use of numbers in the Bible is very important. According to the Jerome Bible Commentary, the number seven reflects everything that is, because it consists of the number 4 (the directions North, South, East, and West)and 3 (the three physical dimensions length, width, depth)So even if it is 70 times 7 or 77, the meaning is the same, we are to forgive- a lot!
I was watching the Old Phil Donahue show about ayear after the L.A. riots, and Reginald Denny was Phil's guest. Denny was the truck driver who had been been beaten by I think four young men during that riot.
Donahue asked Denny how he was doing, and how he felt towrds those who had attacked him. When Reginald Denny said that he had forgiven them, the crowd booed loudly and long..
Even Phil Donahue didn't know what to say
Revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 09:39:06
Can we even compare the great grace and mercy that God has shown to us to the little mercies that God asks us to give to each other? A debt of one hundred denarii could be payed off in under half a year, but a debt of one hundred talents (about 10,000 denarii) would be impossibel to pay off in a lifetime- even for Ross Perot!
William Willimon has something interesting to say about the violence and judgement in this parable- that the one who is telling this story is the one who gives himself completely for us, the one who takes the impossible debt of the world's sin on his shoulders. Probabaly some thing we should always keep in mind.
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 09:42:36
to be more precise -each talent was worth about 10,000 denarii so it's 10,000 times 10,000 days work's pay- a little mindboggling
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 14:49:29
To those of you who believe in limited atonement, you might want to skip this post.
I am writing from the heart of a man whose brother was murdered about two years ago when I was working on a sermon on this passage.
I can't tell you the exact wording of what I said, but the thought pattern was as follows.
- I believe Jesus died for my sins.
- I believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
- If I refuse from my heart to forgive someone, then my actions are betraying what I say I believe. I can't live that way.
- Who am I to refuse to forgive a sin that Jesus died for.
The man who killed my brother is not a Christian, and he is in prison somewhere. But I think I can forgive him because I believe Jesus died for him.
Please understand that I have not put this into practice because I don't know where the man is and I live a good distance from the rest of my family. But that's how I have managed to keep my sanity and continue to preach the grace and forgiveness of Christ in the face of a senseless killing.
In the previous posts regarding this texts, someone brought up the question.
What are you prepared to forgive?
How you answer that question will reveal the state of your heart and the state of your relationship with God. The unforgiving servant showed that he didn't understand the value of forgiveness, and thus ended up with punishment.
GC in IL
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 18:24:24
I wonder if we should distinguish between forgiveness and forgiveness.
The first forgiveness is the letting go of the hurt, and refusing to let it hurt you any more.
The second forgiveness is what is declared to the brother or sister who sins against us.
The first forgiveness, the one from the heart, is required of us. Period. The second may be a little more vague. It is possible to declare forgiveness too soon, before the person has recognized the sin.
I think of the abused person who continually declares forgiveness, because it is expected, but the abuser never repents, never truly recognizes the sin, and does not stop the abusive behavior.
I think of the enabler, who continues to declare love and forgiveness, without holding the addicted person accountable, possibly even contributing to the addiction (however unintentionally and unknowingly).
I think of the playground "runt," for lack of a better term, the one who gets picked on because everyone knows that one will NOT seek revenge, almost a too-soon declaration of forgiveness by default.
I need to work further on this, but this much will suffice for now.
Michelle
Date: 10 Sep 2002
Time: 18:56:18
GC in IL
God bless you!
katinPA
Date: 11 Sep 2002
Time: 00:12:48
Mark in WI try this site www.mumac.org If you can't find something here it's not to be found. Randall in TN
Date: 11 Sep 2002
Time: 07:56:35
Seventy Times Seven
Lisa sat on the floor of her old room, staring at the box that lay in front of her. It was an old shoe box that she had decorated to become a memory box many years before. Stickers and penciled flowers covered the top and sides. Its edges were worn, the corners of the lid taped so as to keep their shape.
It had been three years since Lisa last opened the box. A sudden move to Boston had kept her from packing it. But now that she was back home, she took the time to look again at the memories. Fingering the corners of the box and stroking its cover, Lisa pictured in her mind what was inside.
There was a photo of the family trip to the Grand Canyon, a note from her friend telling her that Nick Bicotti liked her, and the Indian arrowhead she had found while on her senior class trip.
One by one, she remembered the items in the box, lingering over the sweetest, until she came to the last and only painful memory. She knew what it looked like--a single sheet of paper upon which lines had been drawn to form boxes, 490 of them to be exact. And each box contained a check mark, one for each time.
The story behind it..........
"How many times must I forgive my brother?" the disciple Peter had asked Jesus. "Seven times?" Lisa's Sunday school teacher had read Jesus' surprise answer to the class. "Seventy times seven."
Lisa had leaned over to her brother Brent as the teacher continued reading. "How many times is that?" she whispered. Brent, though two years younger, was smarter than she was.
"Four hundred and ninety," Brent wrote on the corner of his Sunday school paper. Lisa saw the message, nodded, and sat back in her chair. She watched her brother as the lesson continued. He was small for his age, with narrow shoulders and short arms. His glasses were too large for his face, and his hair always matted in swirls. He bordered on being a nerd, but his incredible skills at everything, especially music, made him popular with his classmates. Brent had learned to play the piano at age four, the clarinet at age seven, and had just begun to play oboe. His music teachers said he'd be a famous musician someday. There was only one thing at which Lisa was better than Brent--basketball. They played it almost every afternoon after school. Brent could have refused to play, but he knew that it was Lisa's only joy in the midst of her struggles to get C's and D's at school.
Lisa's attention came back to her Sunday school teacher as the woman finished the lesson and closed with prayer. That same Sunday afternoon found brother and sister playing basketball in the driveway. It was then that the counting had begun. Brent was guarding Lisa as she dribbled toward the basket. He had tried to bat the ball away, got his face near her elbow, and took a shot on the chin. "Ow!", he cried out and turned away.
Lisa saw her opening and drove to the basket, making an easy lay-up. She gloated over her success but stopped when she saw Brent. "You okay?",she asked. Brent shrugged his shoulders. "Sorry," Lisa said. "Really. It was a cheap shot." "It's all right. I forgive you," he said. A thin smile then formed on his face. "Just 489 more times though."
"Whaddaya mean?" Lisa asked.
"You know...what we learned in Sunday school today. You're supposed to forgive someone 490 times. I just forgave you, so now you have 489 left," he kidded. The two of them laughed at the thought of keeping track of every time Lisa had done something to Brent. They were sure she had gone past 490 long ago.
The rain interrupted their game, and the two moved indoors. "Wanna play Battleship?" Lisa asked. Brent agreed, and they were soon on the floor of the living room with their game boards in front of them. Each took turns calling out a letter and number combination, hoping to hit each other's ships. Lisa knew she was in trouble as the game went on. Brent had only lost one ship out of five. Lisa had lost three. Desperate to win, she found herself leaning over the edge of Brent's barrier ever so slightly. She was thus able to see where Brent had placed two of his ships. She quickly evened the score. Pleased, Lisa searched once more for the location of the last two ships. She peered over the barrier again, but this time Brent caught her in the act. "Hey, you're cheating!" He stared at her in disbelief.
Lisa's face turned red. Her lips quivered. "I'm sorry," she said, staring at the carpet. There was not much Brent could say. He knew Lisa sometimes did things like this. He felt sorry that Lisa found so few things she could do well. It was wrong for her to cheat, but he knew the temptation was hard for her.
"Okay, I forgive you," Brent said. Then he added with a small laugh, "I guess it's down to 488 now, huh?"
"Yeah, I guess so." She returned his kindness with a weak smile and added, "Thanks for being my brother, Brent."
Brent's forgiving spirit gripped Lisa, and she wanted him to know how sorry she was. It was that evening that she had made the chart with the 490 boxes. She showed it to him before he went to bed. "We can keep track of every time I mess up and you forgive me," she said.
"See, I'll put a check in each box--like this." She placed two marks in the upper left-hand boxes.
"These are for today." Brent raised his hands to protest. "You don't need to keep--"
"Yes I do!" Lisa interrupted. "You're always forgiving me, and I want to keep track. Just let me do this!" She went back to her room and tacked the chart to her bulletin board.
There were many opportunities to fill in the chart in the years that followed. She once told the kids at school that Brent talked in his sleep and called out Rhonda Hill's name, even though it wasn't true. The teasing caused Brent days and days of misery. When she realized how cruel she had been, Lisa apologized sincerely. That night she marked box number 96. Forgiveness number 211 came in the tenth grade when Lisa failed to bring home his English book. Brent had stayed home sick that day and had asked her to bring it so he could study for a quiz. She forgot and he got a C.
Number 393 was for lost keys...418 for the extra bleach she put in the washer, which ruined his favourite polo shirt...449, the dent she had put in his car when she had borrowed it.
There was a small ceremony when Lisa checked number 490. She used a gold pen for the check mark, had Brent sign the chart, and then placed it in her memory box.
"I guess that's the end," Lisa said.
"No more screw-ups from me anymore!" Brent just laughed.
"Yeah, right." Number 491 was just another one of Lisa's careless mistakes, but its hurt lasted a lifetime. Brent had become all that his music teachers said he would. Few could play the oboe better than he. In his fourth year at the best music school in the United States, he received the opportunity of a lifetime--a chance to try out for New York City's great orchestra.
The tryout would be held sometime during the following two weeks. It would be the fulfillment of his young dreams. But he never got the chance. Brent had been out when the call about the tryout came to the house. Lisa was the only one home and on her way out the door, eager to get to work on time. "Two-thirty on the tenth," the secretary said on the phone. Lisa did not have a pen, but she told herself that she could remember it.
"Got it. Thanks." I can remember that, she thought. But she did not. It was a week later around the dinner table that Lisa realized her mistake.
"So, Brent," his mom asked him, "When do you try out?" "Don't know yet. They're supposed to call." Lisa froze in her seat.
"Oh, no!" she blurted out loud. "What's today's date? Quick!"
"It's the twelfth," her dad answered. "Why?"
A terrible pain ripped through Lisa's heart. She buried her face in her hands, crying. "Lisa, what's the matter?" her mother asked. Through sobs Lisa explained what had happened. "It was two days ago...the tryout...two-thirty...the call came...last week." Brent sat back in his chair, not believing Lisa.
"Is this one of your jokes, sis?" he asked, though he could tell her misery was real. She shook her head, still unable to look at him. "Then I really missed it?" She nodded.
Brent ran out of the kitchen without a word. He did not come out of his room the rest of the evening. Lisa tried once to knock on the door, but she could not face him. She went to her room where she cried bitterly. Suddenly she knew that she had to do. She had ruined Brent's life. He could never forgive her for that. She had failed her family, and there was nothing to do but to leave home. Lisa packed her pickup truck in the middle of the night and left a note behind, telling her folks she'd be all right. She began writing a note to Brent, but her words sounded empty to her. Nothing I say could make a difference anyway, she thought. Two days later she got a job as a waitress in Boston. She found an apartment not too far from the restaurant. Her parents tried many times to reach her, but Lisa ignored their letters.
"It's too late," she wrote them once. "I've ruined Brent's life, and I'm not coming back."
Lisa did not think she would ever see home again. But one day in the restaurant where she worked she saw a face she knew. "Lisa!" said Mrs. Nelson, looking up from her plate. "What a surprise."
The woman was a friend of Lisa's family from back home. "I was so sorry to hear about your brother," Mrs. Nelson said softly.
"Such a terrible accident. But we can be thankful that he died quickly. He didn't suffer." Lisa stared at the woman in shock.
"Wh-hat," she finally stammered.
It couldn't be! Her brother? Dead? The woman quickly saw that Lisa did not know about the accident. She told the girl the sad story of the speeding car, the rush to the hospital, the doctors working over Brent. But all they could do was not enough to save him.
Lisa returned home that afternoon.
* ******
Now she found herself in her room thinking about her brother as she held the small box that held some of her memories of him. Sadly, she opened the box and peered inside. It was as she remembered, except for one item--Brent's chart. It was not there. In its place, at the bottom of the box, was an envelope. Her hands shook as she tore it open and removed a letter. The first page read:
Dear Lisa, It was you who kept count, not me. But if you're stubborn enough to keep count, use the new chart I've made for you. Love, Brent
Lisa turned to the second page where she found a chart just like the one she had made as a child, but on this one the lines were drawn in perfect precision. And unlike the chart she had kept, there was but one check mark in the upper left-hand corner. Written in red felt tip pen over the entire page were the words:
"Number 491. Forgiven, forever."
Date: 11 Sep 2002
Time: 09:20:38
How do we address this text in light of the anniversary of 9-11? People in the pews, much less in the pulpet will surely be thinking about it in light of this forgiveness text, and all the documentaries, rememberances, services of this week. Tough question for a tough week with no easy answers.
Date: 11 Sep 2002
Time: 09:21:33
sorry, forgot to sign, vvicars in pa
Date: 11 Sep 2002
Time: 13:54:31
Here are some quotes - some food for thought - that I came across three years ago when I was working on this text. Hope someone finds them useful.
DD in CA
CS Lewis:
"What we have to take to Him is the inexcusable bit, the sin. We are only wasting time by talking about all the parts which we can (we think) be excused. When you go to a doctor you show him the bit of you that is wrong—say, a broken arm. It would be a mere waste of time to keep on explaining that your legs and eyes and throat are all right. You may be mistaken in thinking so; and anyway, if they are really all right, the doctor will know that."
"To forgive the incessant provocations of daily life—to keep on forgiving the bossy mother-in-law, the bullying husband, the nagging wife, the selfish daughter, the deceitful son—how can we do it. Only, I think, by remembering where we stand, by meaning our words when se say in our prayers each night “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” We are offered forgiveness on no other terms. To refuse it is to refuse God’s mercy for ourselves. There is no hint of exceptions and God means what he says."
"I think that if God forgives us we must forgive ourselves. Otherwise it is almost like setting up ourselves as a higher tribunal than Him."
From Lewis' “Mere Christianity”:
"Hate the sin but not the sinner. For a long time I used to think this a silly, straw-splitting distinction: how could you hate what a man did and not hate the man? But years later it occurred to me that there was one man to whom I had been doing this all my life—namely, myself. However much I might dislike my own cowardice or conceit or greed, I went on loving myself. There had never been the slightest difficulty about it. In fact the very reason why I hated the things was that I loved the man. Just because I loved myself, I was sorry to find that I was the sort of man who did those things. Consequently, Christianity does not want us to reduce by one atom the hatred we feel for cruelty and treachery. We ought to hate them. Not one word of what we have said about them needs to be unsaid. But it does want us to hate them in the same way in which we hate the things in ourselves: being sorry that the man should have done such things, and hoping, if it is anyway possible, that somehow, sometime, somewhere, he can be cured and made human again."
"Perhaps it makes it easier if we remember that it is how He loves us. Not for anynice, attractive qualities we think we have, but just because we are the things called selves. For really there is nothing else in us to love: creatures like us who actually find hatred such a pleasure that to give it up is like giving up beer or tobacco…"
Phillip Yancey:
"Forgiveness offers a way out. It does not settle all questions of blame and fairness—often it pointedly evades those questions—but it does allow a relationship to start over, to begin anew. In a way, said Solzhenitsyn, we differ from animals. Not our capacity to think, but our capacity to repent and to forgive makes us different. Only humans can perform that most unnatural act, which transcends the relentless law of nature…If we don not transcend nature, we remain bound to the people we cannot forgive, held in their vise grip. This principle applies even when one party is wholly innocent and the other wholly to blame, for the innocent party will bear the wound until he or she can find a way to release it—and forgiveness is the only way.
We forgive not merely to fulfill some higher law of morality; we do it for ourselves. As Lewis Smedes points out, “The first and often the only person to be healed by forgiveness is the person who does the forgiveness…When we genuinely forgive, we set a prisoner free and then discover that the prisoner we set free was us.”
From the Gospels’ accounts, it seems forgiveness was not easy for God, either. “If it is possible, may this cup be taken from me,” Jesus prayed, contemplating the cost, and the sweat rolled off him like drops of blood. There was no other way. Finally, in one of his last moments before dying, he said, “Forgive them”—all of them, the Roman soldiers, the religious leaders, his disciples who fled in darkness, you, me—forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Only by becoming a human being could the Son of God truly say, “They do not know what they are doing.” Having lived among us, he now understood.
Thomas R. Zehnder:
"Our Lord had been talking to the disciples about forgiveness—and the disciples had been listening intently (Matt. 18:1ff). Never had they heard such things before. For them the rule of thumb about forgiveness was something like “an eye for an eye.” They had always assumed that one had to watch out for oneself and assert one’s inalienable rights. They were concerned with things like “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” Somehow forgiveness smacked of weakness. Forgiveness, freely given, could cause the one who forgives to appear weak to his peers."
"Simon Peter listens intently. He considers what he might say to Jesus about this matter. “Aha,” he says to himself, “I know what I will suggest.” The words come piously forth, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I shall forgive him? As many as seven times?”"
"Peter has a problem there. It seems as if he has difficulty seeing himself in the role of the sinner who needs forgiveness, for he says, “How often shall my brother sin against me?” That’s really not the proper place to start a discussion of forgiveness, for it can only be understood after we see how it is that we first have been forgiven by God." ------ "Remember that Jesus places this parable within the framework of the kingdom of heaven. Look what happens when forgiveness is not practiced by one member of that kingdom. Immediately there is a stumbling block created for other members of that kingdom. They are offended by the gross behavior of the unmerciful one. They go to the king and complain. There is bad feeling, there is grief and sorrow because one of the “rules” of Kingdom living has been ignored."
"If that happens in the Kingdom, imagine what happens outside the Kingdom, to the “people out there,” when they discover that Kingdom members are not practicing what they profess. It is laughable to the world. It is a cause of offense to the world as well as the members of the kingdom. This reminds us of the charge leveled at the church today, “There are too many hypocrites in the church.” There is some substance to that. Perhaps too many of us are content to hear God’s forgiveness as it comes to us in Word and Sacrament and let it go at that. The message rings in our ears and there it stops. We will be switched before we will extend forgiveness to a crabby neighbor, an irritating spouse, or to a child who is a “prodigal” but wants to come home—even to the person who sits to the left or right of us in the church pews."
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 08:45:47
Hi all.
In dealing with people, I am always struck by the confusion that exists within us about forgiveness.
This extends in many, many directions! But here I offer a few areas where things become glaringly apparent (at least for me!).
First - The confusion between forgiving on the one hand, and demanding repentance on the other.
We cannot, we DARE not, withhold our forgiveness until the other is sufficiently repentant (to satisfy our own ego!). Conditional forgiveness is not forgiveness! It strikes me that, if we find ourselves unable to forgive until we see some sign of repentance on the part of the one who "did us wrong," we are guilty of throwing that 'other' into prison until he should pay us what he owes! (See verse 30 above!)
Second - Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. These two are radically different things, and virtually impossible for us anyway. See John 20:19ff. Jesus did not forget that he was crucified! Indeed, the wounds we inflicted on him are an integral part of who he is now! When he came to the disciples, one of the first things he did was show them the scars. No forgetting there! But LOTS of forgiving!
Third - C.S. Lewis mentions (sorry, can't remember where) that 70x7 (or whatever number you want to use!) can also be the number of times I need to forgive ONE SIN! Every time I think of how someone wronged me in the past, I need to forgive him/her again! For the same sin! Whew, no wonder forgiveness is such hard work!
I could go on, but I think I'll stop now. Hmm..., three points. All I need now is a poem... :-)
Rick in Canada, eh?
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 09:23:27
This is a difficult and healing passage for me- I was an abused child and walked right in to a difficult marriage- what I have learned is that forgiveness is a gift for the victims- If I had not let go, I would still be abused. I survived while my siblings did not because I was given the gift of forfiveness. However, forgiveness does not preclude accountability. one of the reasons that I did not leave my marriage was the understanding that God forgave me, how could I not forgive? It took a lot of years to know the difference between compassion and enabling: between anger and rightoues indignation. I had the right and duty to forgive the person but refuse to tolerate the illness that caused the abuse. There is a need to be cautious when preaching forgiveness to not encourage the toleration of abuse by victims. As for members of the church who refuse to forgive other members for petty things- have you ever watched a child when you annonce it is bedtime? they will do anything to avoid facing the issue- when the church members are clinging to silliness and anger over nonsense, it is because they are trying to avoid the real issue- their relationship with God. Irish Lady
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 10:17:34
My cousin (whom we saw and whom we see only on rare ocassions) once offered to take my husband and me out to eat. This cousin had a reputation of stealing from family members, and not paying back what was borrowed. We agreed to go out to eat, but kept in the back of our minds that we would likely end up paying for the meal.
Sure enough, when we were finished eating, guess who 'discovered' he had forgotten his wallet? Then, when we returned home, he 'couldn't find' his wallet. I helped him search his car. I found a wallet in the trunk, empty except for a driver's license. "Oh, that's my old wallet. I have a new one. The new one is the one that's lost." Who would keep a driver's license in an unused wallet?
Did he sin against me? Sure, in intention. However, I allowed it, knowing full well that he was trying to cheat me. (I did not believe he actually did cheat me, because I intended from the first to pay for the meal, believing he had no intention of doing so.)
This happened approximately 15 years ago, and now it is merely a story. My fault lies in the fact that I never told him that his behavior was wrong, or that I knew what he was doing. I assumed he knew it was wrong, and let him think he was getting away with it.
Which is the greater sin, his or mine? I was his enabler on that ocassion, allowing him to continue a lifestyle that was not good. On the other hand, would he have recognized the critique if I had given it to him? I don't know.
Today, his life is good, and I am glad. I believe to ask him for forgiveness now would cause more harm than good. I'll trust in the forgiveness of God for my sin. I've long since forgiven my cousin for the sin he intended against me.
On the other hand...
I still sense a difference between forgiving and declaring forgiveness. The difference is obvious when a person SAYS "I forgive you" but doesn't. But look at it the other way around, when a person forgives from the heart, but does not declare forgiveness until repentance is evident and forgiveness is sought by the perpetrator.
Declaring forgiveness without repentance promotes permissiveness, unless we are careful in the declaration to say, "I forgive you, but I can't allow this to continue, so we need to stay away from one another."
Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, and we all see things from a different background. Let's keep up the good work on this text, and these issues.
Thanks,
Michelle
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 10:37:38
Irish Lady and Michelle: Your stories are truly inspiring.
My interest is piqued in the word "but." If there is the word "but" in forgiveness, is it unconditional and whole forgiveness? A friend and I discussed this months ago - to use the word "but" is to negate the first half of the sentence. Usually a more appropriate word is "AND."
In the case of forgiveness, "I forgive you for your behavior AND this behavior is unacceptable to me so I ask you to refrain from this behavior or I will be forced to rethink my relationship with you."
Sally in GA
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 10:59:37
I read a true story which struck me. I wish I had saved the article or remembered the details and names but I didn't.
An african woman's adult son was murdered by another man in the community. Years later the woman could not get over the event and was still very tormented by it. She had a recurring dream. In the dream she stood on one side of a deep chasm wanting to get to the other side. The chasm was not only impossibly deep and wide but it was also filled with fire. There was no way to the other side. One night she had a different dream. She stood on the same side of the chasm wanting to get to the other side, but this time there was a bridge. Spanning the deep valley was the house of the man who had murdered her son. She understood from this dream that the only way to the other side, to peace and release from torment was to walk through the ennemy's house. and in real life she did. She began by meeting with the killer in prison, after several meetings a relationship began to evolve. This relationship grew and grew and to the point that she ended up 'adopting' him as her son. When he was released from prison he came and lived with her in her home. Both received forgiveness and healing.
KB in AB
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 11:02:12
Rick - Even though you sound like you're joking, the last bit of Robert Frost's "Choose Something Like a Star" comes to mind.
Then steadfast as Keats' Eremite, Not stooping from its sphere, It asks a little of us here. It asks of us a certain height, so when at times the mob is swayed to carry praise or blame too far, we may choose something like a star to stay our minds on and be staid.
Sally in GA
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 11:22:33
with all the talk of jubilee raised in 2000, did the US ever forgive any debt of other countries?
rachel
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 11:27:17
Is forgiveness not forgiveness if conditions are present? Victims beware!
Michelle
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 12:09:26
How many times should one forgive? Before we answer the question we should ask God the question.
"God, how many times are willing to forgive us?"
God's answer should infom and inspire ours. Human forgiveness is alway rooted in divine forgiveness.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 13:37:47
Someone asked about this text in light of September 11 - at our Service of Remembrance, there was a man who was working in the financial district on 9/11/01. He had described to me earlier of being there and watching helplessly as people fell from the buildings. He lost 5 coworkers. At our service he asked "How am I supposed to forgive? My heart is full of such anger and hatred. I don't know if i"ll ever forgive. I can confess my sin. I can be assured of forgiveness. I don't feel it in my heart." Sometimes, it takes a loooooooong time. Reverend KJ
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 14:44:28
Forgiveness is difficult and very hard ... it is as painful as the crucifixion. How do I, who have been wounded by someone, go to the one who has wounded me and ask for forgiveness? It is up to the offended one to set the offending one free .... and yet, what stricks me, is that the one who offends may not realize they need forgiving, they are blinded or live in denial that they have hurt someone. What do we do then?
Is it the duty of the one who has been hurt to tell the hurtful one what they did wrong? That is really scarey! It is risky, for one may get hurt again.
How does the offending person return to community?
tom in ga
Date: 12 Sep 2002
Time: 16:27:07
Dear KatinPA I hear you in regard to fearing you might "beat up" your folk with the same expectation, dare I say demands, 2 weeks in a row. May I suggest you offer them an opportunity instead. I noticed how last week it was the one "sinned against" who had the responsibility/opportunity to approach the sinner. I thought about the lost sheep story whtat came just before this passage an came to realize that the lost one might not even be aware of their lostness. In the same way the sinner might not even be aware of the hurt they have caused the "sinned against one." Approaching them with an "I" statement (eg. I was feeling very badly when you said/did ... the other day. did you mean it the way I heard/felt it?) If the sinner was unaaware of the effect of their words or actions, letting them know is giving them a chance to fix things up with an "I'm sorry" and forgiveness is the outcome. The lost sheep is recovered. What an opportunity for real ministry and real caring. Not a chore, a gift of forgivness and healing. I found this approach was very well received. a canadian pilgrim
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 04:26:43
canadian pilgrim -- Amazing how the Spirit works. Your approach is exactly the same as the one I took last week! I did put some extra emphasis on the fact that unfortunately people in the church (ours included) all too often skip steps 1 and 2 and before going to the offender, go and tell everyone else. Jesus is telling us we are not to do what the rest of the world does. We MUST be different if we are His.
This week I've been most struck by the last three words of the pericope "from your heart." That's where we must forgive from, not just lip service. And that's the place it's impossible for us to forgive from -- unless we hand it over to Christ completely. Once again it comes down to us being completely inadequate on our own yet victors in Christ.
As I've prayed for tenderness with delivery I've faced a number of difficult situations this week requiring me to find forgiveness from my heart. Funny how God helps us understand before we deliver a message! Praise God!
katinPA
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 06:52:00
The more I think about this parable the more concerned I get that I don't understand it.
It seems to me that the King has an ability to forgive that the slave does not have. The King has internal resources that the slave lacks. It is easier for a tall man (King) to be humble than it is for one whose life is defined by humiliation.
What is lacking in the slave, how does the slave begin to understand the new world he has been invited to enter through his absolution by the King?
It seems to me that only until we, ourselves, understand our own royality (being children of God) that we can truly forgive from our hearts.
At some point there needs to be a conversion, but how do we move into something new as long as we see ourselves as slaves?
tom in ga
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 07:18:54
In Genesis Lamech bragged to his wives that he killed a man for wounding him. And his revenge was 7x70. He compared himself to Cain. If there is a comparison, the reaction to extreme violent, angry aggression is the same extreme character that can forgive. If we chose revenge we will live in a world ordered by Cain and Lamech, there will be no end to the violence. The act of forgiveness is on the plate of the offended. Gen
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 12:53:19
Again, if we continue our theme of stewardship: the stewardship of communal life
then we could simply say that the King lives out of abundance thus finding it easy to forgive;
and the slave continues, within himself, to live with scarcity and is unable to forgive or acknowledge a need beyond the self.
tom in ga
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 17:47:05
tom in ga said that it would seem the King has an ability to forgive that the slave does not. Isn't that the heart of it all? God and God alone has the ability we lack to be able to forgive from the heart.
When we say we can't (won't) forgive, I would say it's because we haven't prayed hard enough. It is only when we give our heart over to God completely in the matter that we will then be able to forgive from the heart. The miracle of it all is that the moment we do give our hearts over to God in the matter, we are able to forgive - in fact can find no other plausible action BUT to forgive.
katinPA
Date: 13 Sep 2002
Time: 21:57:36
I have always wondered how the "lord" in the parable seems to miss the idea of forgiving 7X70. He forgives the servant, but his forgiveness seems to be conditional. And then, when perhaps he has another opportunity for forgiveness, he chooses to recind his forgiveness.
It seems to create a dis-jointed idea of what forgiveness is.
Is forgiveness conditional. Can forgiveness be recinded? What does this say about us? What does this say about God?
wondering late on a Friday night,
Colorado Joe
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 03:37:12
Colorado Joe,
I think your question about whether or not forgiveness is conditional is a good one. Others have already mentioned the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our debts/trespassas as we forgive...." I don't think God's forgiveness is conditional, but I do think this passage, and similar ones, speak to the idea of accountability. We are forgiven; but we are also accountable for the way we pass on -- or fail to pass on -- God's blessings to others. txrev
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 05:08:53
A couple of things - Peter asked about "another member of the church", meaning that both parties have supposedly asked for and received salvation. I agree that buried hatred and anger can destroy a person, but is Jesus not referring to forgiving fellow Christians here? Are we stretching it to include anyone who has committed attrocities? Would this exclude, for example, the Jews forgiving Hitler?
Seems that Jesus is hitting home the problem that all congregations seem to have. One member says or does something that makes somebody angry. They either create a big stink or transfer their membership.
We are to have mercy on our "fellow slave"
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 05:43:47
Special thanks to, katinPA, for the links. This is just what I needed – didn't ask but got it anyway!
The discussion has been very good as usual – while not preaching this week I still come here to have my mind and spirit opened up to new perspectives on the Gospel from my sisters and brothers.
The idea of forgiveness being conditional or unconditional is interesting. This story of the King forgiving the steward who owed much tells us so much about how we are to relate to each other. God forgives unconditionally our debts. There is no but. "I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me." We ask for forgiveness and it is granted. The lord in the parable forgave the debt and did not expect repayment. This parallels the younger son in the Luke story of the prodigal son. He came back to his father to beg forgiveness and be allowed to work as a hand – the father receives him back as his son. God goes beyond our expectations.
And so it was with this servant who is forgiven by the Lord. He doesn't deserve it but all debts are wiped away and no mention is made of demotion or demerit.
As the servant represents us we need to look carefully at his actions and the lord's later action. The original transgression was against the lord and was forgiven without qualification – ask and you shall receive. The later transgressions were against other servants. Why didn't the lord forgive these?
First, the transgressor was given the opportunity to initiate the actions of the lord and he failed miserably. Second, and most interestingly to me. is that the later sin was not directed against the lord. They were against others.
There is something really important in this story for us. We often think that sins against God are the toughest to get forgiven, but this parable gives a different take. God easily forgives us for sins against Him, but when the sins are against other sinners we are in trouble. If the servant had acted godlike forgiving the others their debts it would be the beginning of the Kingdom on earth.
Since it is Saturday morning, most of you guys are all ready to preach wonderful homilies tomorrow. Not like this preacher who is tinkering Saturday afternoon just in time to preach at vigil. God bless you and your listeners as you enter into the mystery of the Gospel. Deke in TX – Pace e Bene
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 07:07:38
Great discussions and stories this week. Checking in late but wanted to add some thoughts;
The scene as Jesus is being nailed to the cross is a profound moment. It is the onset of the sacrifical redemptive act for all time. I picture Jesus laying there on the cross while the nails are being driven into his hands or wrists. What He says becomes the most intense statement of forgiveness; "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." Jesus DOES NOT SAY "I forgive you!" I suspect that when the violation is too severe, it can reach beyond our ability to forgive. We may be in a condition where it is only possible to offer forgiveness through that which is greater than we; namely God! For those who have suffered abuse, from an unrepentant parent, known the humilation of rape, or any other form of personal violence, this may be the only means to being released from the burden of forgiveness that may be imposed upon them and it may be the only way to be free to live in God's grace.
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 09:17:47
From David Ford's "Self and Salvation: Being Transformed":
A sharp note on exclusion .... the excluded are those who cannot bear God's generosity and will not imitate it.
This a late note but thought it powerful enough to send it on anyway. The slave is excluded in the end because he cannot, for whatever reason, fully embrace the overwhelming generosity of his lord/God.
tom in ga
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 15:24:09
Tom in Ga. Thanks for your late inclusion (as well as your other work on the text). It seems to give an organizing principle for the sermon "punchline." Aslanclan
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 18:23:13
70 X 7 has a great deal of significance. My understanding is that a Hebrew had to forgive someone 6 times for the same offense and then after that, no more. In the light of this, Peter is taking one step beyond what is already required,yea for a little bit of grace on his part. And then Jesus says the 70 X 7 which indicates, "you're never done forgiving" because it 70 X 7 about each different offense. Even folks with spread sheets would get tired of that. JC in PA
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 18:23:47
70 X 7 has a great deal of significance. My understanding is that a Hebrew had to forgive someone 6 times for the same offense and then after that, no more. In the light of this, Peter is taking one step beyond what is already required,yea for a little bit of grace on his part. And then Jesus says the 70 X 7 which indicates, "you're never done forgiving" because it 70 X 7 about each different offense. Even folks with spread sheets would get tired of that. JC in PA
Date: 14 Sep 2002
Time: 20:44:10
Maybe no one will see this, as I am working late (10:35 pm on Saturday), but I may have missed it earlier in another posting or maybe it wasn't there.
This text comes immediately after the one from last week, where we are to hold up the sin before brother or sister in the church and work for reconciliation. Maybe we miss the boat when we skip the "confrontation" with the one who has sinned against us. If repentance comes before we have to hold the sin before the perpetrator, fine, forgiveness is warranted. If repentance comes through that process, forgiveness is warranted. If repentance never comes, we still need to dismiss the matter from our hearts, but the perpetrator is to become to us like a gentile and a tax collector.
The word used for forgiveness in Greek means to let go, to put away, to dismiss. The last verse of the pericope is also plural. Might be better translated, "So my heavenly Father will also do to all of you, unless each of you forgives his or her brother or sister from your hearts."
Something that struck me late. Should have gone to the Greek earlier.
Food for next time, maybe?
Michelle
Date: 6/5/2003
Time: 3:48:49 PM
but he just keep hunting me