Ooh! I get to be first, I guess!
To follow my theme from last week of what comes out of the mouth is what defiles - gives "meat" to Peter's confession of Jesus as the Messiah. So he's blessed.
An early thought and a request for ideas. This is the final service of "informal worship month," and I've labeled it "be still and know ..." While I'd love to put them on benches around the room in the fellowship hall and just be silent, the Quaker way would make them a little too nervous.
Sally in GA
The initial readers had a (clear) idea of the Messiah, I don't and most of my congregation doesn't --> do have to spend the sermon getting us up to speed ? Tom in Seattle
Off topic: I'm looking for a United Methoist Church somewhere around Portland, Maine. If you know of one, could you send me some info, preferably web site or e-mail address? Thanks. kculp@awod.com
They say the past the were the dead The rock says the now the Messiah the son of the living God and upon this now ROCKS !
Tom in Seattle
Eric in KS, thanks for the Luther quote last week! Mark in WI
Mark in WI -- I'm glad you got it. You're welcome. Eric in KS
The famous "confession of Peter".... The famous "power of the keys".... The famous "Messianic secret".... There's a lot here to work with ... Where to start, where to start?
Eric in KS
My congregation has taken 16:20 to heart. I don't think they've ever told anyone about Jesus.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
To new pastor on Jersey Shore.....take courage your parish isn't the only one that keeps the good news hidden away for a "special event" or that rare moment. "You are the Messiah" are the same lips that a few weeks ago shouted "Lord save me!" We go back and forth in our own acclamation of Jesus as the One to we look to for life. Being a good Catholic I'm avoiding the keys and talk about the need for a messiah in our own lives. We are so caught up in doing "our thing" that we forget how much we need God and our Savior Jesus. Not sure which road it will take .....just yet! Pax, Fr in IA
To new pastor on Jersey Shore.....take courage your parish isn't the only one that keeps the good news hidden away for a "special event" or that rare moment. "You are the Messiah" are the same lips that a few weeks ago shouted "Lord save me!" We go back and forth in our own acclamation of Jesus as the One to we look to for life. Being a good Catholic I'm avoiding the keys and talk about the need for a messiah in our own lives. We are so caught up in doing "our thing" that we forget how much we need God and our Savior Jesus. Not sure which road it will take .....just yet! Pax, Fr in IA
My last comment about my congregation taking 16:20 to heart was a joke. But thanks for the reassurance!
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Philosophical discusions are fun around the campfire "Who do people say that I am" is pretty safe. I have an image of the disciples around the campfire, perhaps eating breakfast (I think the image comes from the musical The Cotton Patch Gospel) listening to the one whom they are following. Gee, Jesus, that's an interesting question- what do you think. Oh, by the way, here's what we've heard other people saying about you. Just thought you'd want to know. Isn't that interesting?
But then Jesus gets personal "Who do you say that I am?" In other words, why are you here- why have you chosen to follow me when you could be back at your boats or your countinghouse or even under a sycamore tree instead of traipsing around with me through the countryside? Don't you realze that this is serios business. So think about it-why are you here?
Peter answers well- but I'm not sure that's the gospel writer's intent. Maybe the question is every bit as much to us as it is to Peter- who do you say that I am?
Some early thoughts
RevGilmer in texarkana
Oooops! I was looking at the previous discusion on this text and I realized that I had made an easy mistake. Jesus does not ask "who do people say that I am", but "who do people say that the son of Man is"
Does this make a difference in the way we understand this text? Do the disciples even understand that Jesus is talking about himself in the first question?
RevGilmer in texarkana
New Pastor in NJ -- We know your comment was a joke (but like all our jokes, I suspect it contains a grain of truth). However, it's a good question which verse from Matthew's Gospel the modern church best lives out:
16:20 Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
or
28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirt.
Might even be the beginning of a sermon.... mmmmmm...
Blessings, Eric in KS
What is the rock? The Roman Caatholic Church says the rock is Peter. In the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), we believe the rock is the confession, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." PH in OH
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 08:34:53
One of my seminary professors said that a major part of good leadership is asking the right questions, and here is Jesus, asking questions. I think I'm going to talk about "Asking the Right Questions" perhaps including, "What is the most important thing we do here at ..... church?" with 3x5 cards for actual answers. It's early,yet. I laughed out loud when I read your comment, New Pastor. Glad it was a joke, but I hear ya'. Blessings, Max in NC
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 09:52:19
PH in OH ... on that "rock" question... I think the synopsis from the folks at Lectionary.Org is helpful:
==============
Roman Catholics and Protestants have divided sharply in their interpretation of these words. Catholics have understood them to establish Peter as the rock upon which Jesus will build his church. They understand Peter to be the first Bishop of Rome and the first of an unbroken succession of Popes.
Protestants have understood the rock to be Peter's confession and the reality that stands behind it -- that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. They point to the distinction between the two rocks that Jesus mentions -- "you are Peter (Petros -- masculine), and on this rock (petra -- feminine) I will build my church." They have understood Jesus to be distinguishing between the Rock that is Peter and the rock upon which he will build his church. However, while the New Testament was written in Greek, Jesus almost certainly spoke the Aramaic word, Cephas, which lends itself less well to that kind of distinction.
There has been some movement toward the center in more recent years. Protestants are less reluctant to acknowledge Peter's special place:
"There can be no profitable denying that Jesus honors the actual person of Peter here and makes him leader in the church" (Bruner, 574).
"Jesus' meaning is plain: Peter is the rock, the foundation, upon which he is going to erect his church.... (However,) this is not a story about the papacy; it is a story about Peter and Jesus, and the most plausible interpretation of the passage is that Jesus is, indeed, pointing to Peter as the foundation stone, the principal leader, of this new people of God" (Long, 185-186).
Protestants point out that Jesus offers his blessing to Peter, but with no suggestion that the blessing can be passed on -- or that any succession is intended. They point out that Peter the Rock almost immediately becomes Peter the Stumbling Block (16:22-23). They say, "The granting of authority to Simon Peter is obviously symbolic for all the apostles (v. 19), for elsewhere in Matthew (18:18) and John (20:23) this bestowal of power is on all of them" (Craddock, 417). They note Jesus' prohibition against giving to people honors that belong rightfully to the Father and the Son (23:8-12). They point to 1 Cor 3:11, which says, "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ." They note that, while Ephesians acknowledges that the church is built "upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (plural -- not limited to Peter), "Christ Jesus himself (is) the cornerstone" (Eph 2:20). They say that Peter "is the first initial foundation stone of the whole Church, ...the first man to make the leap of faith which saw in Jesus Christ the Son of the living God, ...the first member of the Church, and, in that sense, the whole Church is built on him" (Barclay, 155).
==================
You can find the rest of their analysis and the full references of the citations at http://www.lectionary.org/
Hope this helps.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 16:49:39
Adding my thanks to Eric for the Luther quote and for your sermon. A brief summary of your four points to 'avoid defilement' found their way into my sermon and were found to be very timely.
Wishing won't make it so, but I wish that the gospel included 16:21-23(...tho I may make a pastoral decision to include them...) Robert Smith in his commentary on Matthew (Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament Series) notes these three contrasting phrases (a) Get behind me, Satan vs Blessed are you, Simon bar-Jona! (b) You are a hindrance, stone of stumbling, to me. vs You are Peter, and on this rock I will build. (c) You are not on the side of God but of men. vs Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven.
I'm struck with the extremely high value Matthew lets us experience at this moment of the confession, the empowering of new access to the kingdom of heaven (keys), the appointing of new guides & interpreters (binding and loosing) for the new community (church). It is a thrilling moment and holds such purity. Yet, with the lectionary divorcing the next vv. 21-23, we may be left with a thrilling taste of new human power without recognition of what accompanies that power.
On another note and not a major point, I have wondered how the answers to "Who do people say the Son-of-Man is?" 'John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, one of the prophets'...how were these answers not considered extremely weird...reincarnations?? of verifiably dead prophets? I must be missing a piece of sociological/cultural information.
Aslanclan
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 19:02:14
Aslanclan (I love that name- I'm a big C.S. Lewis fan) Many of the people thought that John the Baptist was Elijah- they dressed alike and ate the same weird diet - As Tom long says, John is not stranger in Paradise but Auld Lang Syne, reminding the people of their history. He looks, feels, smells , like Elijah. They believed, as orthodox Jews still do, that Elijah must come first, before the Messiah. That is why, at the Jewis Passover seder, the door is left open for Elijah.
I don't think that it is so much reincarnation, as it is the understanding that the prophets were always calling the people back to God.
Oh, and they usually challenged the rulers of the time in one way or another
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 19:02:37
Aslanclan (I love that name- I'm a big C.S. Lewis fan) Many of the people thought that John the Baptist was Elijah- they dressed alike and ate the same weird diet - As Tom long says, John is not stranger in Paradise but Auld Lang Syne, reminding the people of their history. He looks, feels, smells , like Elijah. They believed, as orthodox Jews still do, that Elijah must come first, before the Messiah. That is why, at the Jewis Passover seder, the door is left open for Elijah.
I don't think that it is so much reincarnation, as it is the understanding that the prophets were always calling the people back to God.
Oh, and they usually challenged the rulers of the time in one way or another
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 20:00:45
Aslanclan,
Remember that Elijah was not verifiably dead, as he was caught up in a chariot and whisked away from Elisha.
Many thought of John the Baptist as the return of Elijah, which tradition said would happen.
Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes."
Matthew 11:12-14 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Matthew 17:9-12 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
However, John claims not to be Elijah:
John 1:21 They asked him [John] "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."
I am searching for some research on the phrase "Son of Man." What did the Jews understand that phrase to mean? How did it function? Messianically?
Michelle
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 22:16:38
revgilmer in Texarkana-So, according to the disciples, the "people" saw in the Son-of-Man the spirit or vocation of the previous prophets?
Michelle-I keep forgetting about Elijah! Robert Smith in his Matthew commentary (one of my favorites) says about Son-of Man: "The title is found in Matthew only on Jesus' lips...Efforts are made to understand it (1) by looking for its roots in ancient Jewish literature and (2) by examining its use in the Gospels. In the Psalms and Ezekiel "son of man" means something like "mere mortal" in contrast to God. In Daniel God's people are represented by "one like a son of man," that is, by "a great human figure" as contrasted with the inhuman beasts representing a succession of powerful pagan empires. In some later Jewish apocalyptic literature (1 Enoch), the Son of man is an agent of God in the last times who comes to judge and to rule. It appears that the equivalent Aramaic phrase could mean something like "this person" or "yours truly." (p.134) Aslanclan
Date: 19 Aug 2002
Time: 22:46:54
Thank you, Aslanclan.
Michelle
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 05:03:41
What a great time you guys had last week, and how disappointing that I wasn't around to experience it.
Oh well, ever onward!!! This week's passage.
Isn't it a basic tenet of being human to hear who and what others think we are? That is how we refine our identity and ensure we are reflecting correctly our inner person to others.
We put this test before others quite regularly, as a kind of sounding board of what we are expressing of our ourselves. Are we putting out before people the truth about ourselves, or is our expression lacking clarity, obscured by interpretation. It can be hard to actually get across to others, what it is that you are trying to say.
I think in some way, Jesus was also testing the waters. Not because he needed to know who he was, that was apparent, but so that others were receiving the correct signals.
We are somehow relieved when someone gets, what we are trying to say. There is a spiritual element to this. Essentially it has to do with; how do I convey my spiritual self to another, using the impossibly inadequate medium of words and human language? In order for the other to fully receive ME, (my true person) it requires another dimension other than my rather clumsy physical mediums, for someone to fully appreciate my expression of myself and my feelings.
Love, for instance between husbands and wives is not totally conveyed by physical means, but by a spiritual awareness of each others inner struggle.
Many times at funerals, I have found that close family members were unaware of the fears and frustrations, joys and yearnings of those they thought they knew intimately. Do we really know who each other truly is???
I have also found that I need to have people articulate for me, their individual understanding of who Christ is for them, so that THEY can fully perceive what it is that they believe about him. The WHO translates to the WHAT.
For me this gospel describes a necessary spiritual dimension to any relationship. A guaging of what still needs to be revealed in order for the purpose to be achieved.
Thanks for the space.
Regards,
KGB in Aussie.
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 05:37:44
revgilmer, can you tell us where you got the Long quote re: Auld Lang Syne? thanks bionic pastor(as my parishioners call me)
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 05:41:32
Greetings
Have just trawled through the 1999 discussions. Very revealing comment about 'starting with rocks and ending up with rock throwing'!
This fits well with the first of my two contributions to the 2002 list. It concerns the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem (trad. site of crucifixion) which is the centre of a VERY long-running dispute over ownership. So bad is it that none of the Christian groups (6 in all) who occupy various parts of the building trust each other (understatement) and so for centuries the KEYS have been left in the care of a Muslim family who have passed on this responsibility from one generation to the next.
Things are still VERY ugly. In front of me is a print off of a report from the Daily Telegraph (UK) 12/09/02 in which an Egyptian Coptic monk (they lay claim to the roof) - moved his chair out of the sun and too near the rooftop area occupied by the Ethiopian Orthodox Monks (they had been chucked out of the main church). Picture the scene as fully clad monks immersed themselves in a mass brawl (throwing ROCKS and iron bars at each other), some hospitalised, one unconscious (I'm not making this up) and the Israeli Police called in to restore order.
Second point (one to put alongside the immense number of perceptive and helpful comments already submitted): Jesus stands at the door and knocks (Rev). Can the words of Jesus to Peter be seen as a very personal challenge / invitation (one Jesus gives to all of us). 'YOU have the keys (you say that I am the Messiah - this is the rock of faith upon which the church is built) - now unlock the door and let me in!' Read like this we all have the keys - they are a gift of God (this, if you like, is the same as saying 'we have the offer of God's grace'). But like all gifts they must be received.
Scott (North Yorks)
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 05:43:37
Apologies: 12/09/02 should have been 12/08/02! Scott North Yorks.
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 06:48:52
Peter is Petros and the rock on which the church will be built is Petra. There is a difference in choice of words. Petra refers to solid rock, like what mountains are made of, from which tombs are hewn and on which houses should be built. Petros seems to be a smaller "rock" like maybe what we would call a stone.
Jesus is obviously using a word play, as he often does. But that does not mean that the words are the same, only that they sound similar, and make a good teaching tool. The solid rock is teh confession of faith, that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the living God.
There is also a hint of irony or sarcasm in calling Simon a rock since he is often more like quicksand.
This passage is all about names and titles: What do they say about Jesus, what do they say about Simon, what do they say about us? To call Jesus the Messiah or Christ was more than an observation, it was a commitment.
My children's talk will deal with relationship names, like Mom and Dad and doctor and pastor. JRW in OH
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 07:05:02
Caesara Philipi....I wonder what we might identify that ancient site of false gods with the Caesara Philipi's of our day? Pro-Football? Pro-Baseball? What's In It for me society? Materialism? Just pondering. Preacher in Ks.
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 08:15:21
Bionic Pastor
The Long Quote is from a book of sermons by Tom Long called "Shepherds and Bathrobes" in one of the lectionary preaching series for advent and Epiphany. It has some terrific sermons in it.Hey, it's by Tom Long. What else would you expect?
Aslanclan
I think I would use mantle instead of spirit- your word vocation hits the nail on the head.
Notice that all the things that the disciples report are from the past- like most of us, they can only go so far in their understanding of Jesus- only Peter sees something more (but next week, he gets stuck in the same trap)Maybe that's because Peter is the one who has touched the saving hand of Jesus when the waters of chaos threatened to overwhelm him, when he cried, "Lord, help me"
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 12:19:01
Peter gets it right, “You are the Christ, the Messiah, son of the living God.” Peter realizes that Jesus is divine, the son of God. "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.”
What is the rock upon which Jesus would build his church? There are different interpretations. One interpretation says that Jesus himself is the rock, Jesus’ his work of salvation by dying for us on the cross. Some think it is Peter whose name is a form of the word ‘rock’ is the rock the church is built upon. I don’t. True, Peter was the first great leader of the church in Jerusalem and eventually in Rome. Still others believe that the rock is the confession of faith that Peter that day, a confession that all true Christians have given over time.
We can eliminate Peter as the rock. Dear old Peter is too changeable, too wishy washy to be a rock. I think Jesus started calling him Peter to stiffen Simon son of John up, to help Peter be the leader that the new church would need. Peter, you are going to have grave and heavy responsibilities laid upon you. You will be the guide and the director of the infant Church. Peter, the decisions you give will be so important that they will affect the souls of humanity in time and eternity. – Jesus gives Peter the keys so Peter would be the steward of the household of God. Opening the door for (people) to enter the Kingdom. The duty of binding and loosing meant the Peter would have to make decisions about the Church’s life and practice which would have far reaching consequences. Two choices left: Jesus is the rock himself or the confession of faith in Jesus is the rock. Perhaps it should be both /and. Jesus is the rock and our confession of faith in Jesus forms the basis of the church. All believers are joined into the church by faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, just as in 1st Peter 2:4-6, Peter himself tells us that we are the church built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. Peter says, “Come to him, a living stone, though rejected by mortals yet chosen and precious in God's sight, and like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in scripture: "See, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." Jesus praised Peter for his confession of faith. It is faith like Peter’s that is the foundation of Christ’s Kingdom. Sue in Cuba, KS
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 13:04:53
Hello, AsI reflect here I think of the Song "That's who I am." Who is Jesus? Christ could ask that to us very well, today. Who is jesus? DING DING DING IS you final answer the Son of the Living God? (Do a regis Philbin) We know you Jesus is,to... He is the spitting image of HIS FATHER... Well, hum very interesting ...When we accept Jesus as the way the truth and the Life... we become spitting imamges for the Father too. Who are you, really... to use the format of that song...I am Hattie's Grandfather, the spitting image of my earthly dad, and my mother is my biggest fan... That's who I am... But takethat deeper I am the spitting image of my heavenly Father...He created me...He created you...What do those words mean to you? Do you behave in the way God , your Father does? Deep thoughts.... Lady Pastor in OHIO
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 14:39:16
Since I don't have the text in front of me from Isaiah I will paraphrase. It says something like, "the rock from which you were hewn." The Harper Collins Study Bible indicates that this rock was a long standing tradition of believers. In other words, the word 'rock' was meant to refer to the ancestors of the Israelites.
Today we hear of Peter also being referred to as the Rock. He is the new foundation for generations to come. A foundation so strong that not even the powers of evil will defeat it.
So what does that mean for us today? Do we really think anyone would leave church Sunday morning feeling better knowing that Peter has been called the rock? Does it matter to anyone, really, that Peter recognized Jesus as the Son of the Living God? Its all just one nice story to me.
But what does matter is that Jesus gave another human being, with temporal faith, the assurance that he would have God's blessing in building the church. It doesn't matter his name, it could be Peter, Paul, Dick or Harry. The point is that those who recognize Jesus as the Son of the Living God are given authority to build God's house of prayer -one generation after another.
A New Pastor on the jersey Shore...
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 14:39:28
Since I don't have the text in front of me from Isaiah I will paraphrase. It says something like, "the rock from which you were hewn." The Harper Collins Study Bible indicates that this rock was a long standing tradition of believers. In other words, the word 'rock' was meant to refer to the ancestors of the Israelites.
Today we hear of Peter also being referred to as the Rock. He is the new foundation for generations to come. A foundation so strong that not even the powers of evil will defeat it.
So what does that mean for us today? Do we really think anyone would leave church Sunday morning feeling better knowing that Peter has been called the rock? Does it matter to anyone, really, that Peter recognized Jesus as the Son of the Living God? Its all just one nice story to me.
But what does matter is that Jesus gave another human being, with temporal faith, the assurance that he would have God's blessing in building the church. It doesn't matter his name, it could be Peter, Paul, Dick or Harry. The point is that those who recognize Jesus as the Son of the Living God are given authority to build God's house of prayer -one generation after another.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 14:46:50
The Gates of Hades will not prevail against it!
This sounds like good news for the church today. Everyday another scandal is reported about the RCC. In many ways, it seems like the Gates of Hades are prevailing.
But as we all know, history has proven that the gates of Hades has not prevailed against the church. Scandal for the Church is nothing new. Pastors and Priests have been accused of theft, molestation, hypocricy, and even murder, and still there are people hungry to hear the gospel.
As long as the message of Jesus Christ exists on this earth, the Gates of Hades will not have a chance to prevail. It cannot compare to what it is like to having life more abundantly.
Ph Dee in Little Rock
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 19:15:05
I have beat up on Peter for years – Poor old guy always putting his foot in his mouth, etc. I think this was because I identified with him. Now, I am seeing in Peter, perhaps what Jesus saw, Peter is a tower of strength and power that we just get glimpses of in the Gospels. The Peter of Acts 2:5ff is the fulfillment of the man we meet in the Gospels. He is a rock! Jesus saw the potential that shined occasionally in this man that he chose to lead after the Ascension.
I don't use Peter as my straight man any longer. There is much more to him then meets the eye. Simon Peter is a living parable - he recognizes Jesus for who he is when no on else does. Pace e Bene.
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 19:16:27
sorry I didn't sign off -- Deke in TX
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 19:32:14
This discussion of Peter reminded me of an incredible book, "Being Me," by Grady Nutt, Baptist minister and Christian comedian. Rev. Nutt commented that Peter always seemed to have a relationship with Jesus similar to Barney Fife's relationship with Andy Taylor. Like Barney, Peter is always trying to do the right thing but occasionally ends up in over his head, like on the Mount of Transfiguration or when he decided to "get out of the boat." Still, Jesus stands by him even when you have to wonder why, for example when Peter denied Jesus and Jesus patched things up with the "Feed my sheep" talk. In spite of that, when Peter gets it right, he really gets it right. Maybe it's because Jesus saw the real Peter that Peter saw the real Jesus. Just thinking back and pondering. Mike from Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 21:41:12
On the Peter v. The Confession question...Just because we protestants don't care to honor the papacy doesn't mean that Matthew didn't intend to honor Peter's authority. I have no doubt that he did. However, I believe that if we are to look at the full value of Matthew's intent we need to consider that it is not peter the Person, but any person who is willing to make such a personal confession and then to live his/her life such that it makes a transformational difference. We cannot deny the need of Matthew to claim the authority of the apostolic church. Nor should we attempt to deny the importance of those who live out a true confession of faith. If the RC church had done that in the 1500's Luther would not have even recieved mention in the annals of history. Nevertheless, I'm not even going that way on my sermon. I am going to walk my congregation throught the possibilities of what their confession might be, as if it somehow indicates where they are in faith. Here is a very early outline of stages of faith profession: Who are you willing to call Him? 1) An Intriguing person in History 2) An Interesting teacher 3) A Charismatic Prophet 4) The Son of God 5) The Messiah 6) Lord
It's a start
RevIsrael
Date: 20 Aug 2002
Time: 21:43:57
By the way, 4) 5) and 6) will sound something like Wesley's Prevenient, Justifying, and Sanctifying grace. (I am Methodist) RevIsrael
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 07:19:04
I find it encouraging that Peter is called the Rock on which Jesus will build his church, although it seems to me that the Rock is not only the followers of Christ but also the confession of Jesus as the Messiah and all that that means. Immediately, after having such a affirmation, Peter blows it and Jesus calls him Satan! So he's a Rock that can't be solid on his own. Jesus saw the potential in Peter. He saw the "finished product." He saw beyond the guy who put his foot in his mouth, would deny him three times when things got scary, and he saw the man who would be empowered by the Holy SPirit at Pentecost and get to work! The man who stood up and preached to the masses when they were accusing the disciples of just being drunk. He saw a man, faulted and weak at times, but with the power of the Holy Spirit, he was a man who would become a significant foundational leader of Jesus' Church. What good news to us who press on in the face of scandals, ridicule, bad press, etc., etc. What good news to us who mess up, who want to give up on the call, who are weak, who deny Jesus often, etc. Jesus saw in this troubled, emotional, reactive, bad-tempered and hotheaded dude-- what he could become by the power of the Holy Spirit and with the confession of Jesus as the Messiah. If Peter can do it, there's hope for us all, and there's hope for the battle-weary Church! PM in PA
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 07:58:21
Wow! great discussions this week. Just wanted to say Hi! I'm just getting back on line since May. Been too busy enjoying my five churches.One of them is a very historical building. The sanctuary is upstairs and below there is a room where the circuit rider stayed when he came. It still has the little cot, a table, wash basin and pitcher and a lamp. Under the poarch area is where he parked his carrage. ( sort of the first car port LOL)It still has a partition down the center which devided the women from the men. The shandalear was shiped from paris in the early 1800's. No airconditioning!!! The slaves met down stairs. Another of my churches meets every fourth Sunday at 9:00 A.M. We only have five members but all the baptist in town come including the two baptist pastors. This church has no airconditioning either. I'm going off lectionary for the next two Sundays. This Sun I want to speak about life as choice. God gave Adam the choice of choosing Not only was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden but the Tree of Life was also there. At any time Adam could have chosen life ( he was not forbidden to eat from that tree) instead he chose death. Gen. 2:8,9 God bless all Harold in Alabama
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 08:22:28
Harold.....what a wonderful spot to be (except for the lack of AC).....may God bless you abundantly! Not sure how to use the pun upon you Rocky...I will build my church. Think it is a good approach to try. Maybe the movie Rocky would be another way to look at it.... Fr. in IA
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 08:25:54
In the one picture is worth a thousand words department- if you want to see what the region of Caesarea Philippi looks like go to Banias.com (Banias is the Arabic name for this area) and look at the picture gallery. The ones you need to look at are "the waterfall" and "the cave of pan".
I kept reading all the descriptions of this region, so I called a friend of mine who had actually been there. He remembered seeing a huge rock cliff with waterfalls. There is speculation that Jesus was looking at this rock face when he called Peter( or Peter's confession) "rock". This was an area where both Baal and Pan had been worshipped and a huge temple erected to Augustus Caesar. There were plenty of pagan temples. I wonder if any of this is behind Jesus statement that the church shall prevail- after all, that same rock cliff still stands, but I think the temple to Augustus is gone, as well as the other pagan temples.
Oh, and those waterfalls my friend remembers?They soon become the Jordan, which brings living water to all of Israel.
So, a rock that still stands (and we're talking big rock here)and brings living water to a desert land. Sounds like a very good image of the church, Christ's church, to me.
Grace and Peace
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 08:33:10
JUst came across something else. Church consultant Tom Bandy says that one of the best leverage points for change and transformation in the church is to gather around you a bunch of unbalanced leaders. After all, says Bandy, that's just what Jesus did.
If Peter had been calm. cool. collected. COuld God have done such a mighty work in him?
Something to think about
revgilmer in Texarkana (for the last time this week- I promise!)
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 09:15:06
Grace and Peace to you all as you prepare for the upcoming Sunday. Keep coming back to what it means that Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah. The relationship establshed in this interchange is incredibly important. Understanding someone and assigning a name/label to them tempers the depth of relatioship I will have with someone. For example, If I beleive someone to be a jerk, I have notions of what that means to me, and i will likely respond in kind as to my personal investment in that relationship. If I believe Jesus to be the Messiah, my relationship with Him changes. He becomes my saviour, and my resonse is one of love, awe, and total investment of myself in the relationship.
I'm also thinking of handing out nametags to everyone at church this Sunday with the name Rock on it, trying to promote the idea that it was not only Peter that God used to build up the Church, but that each of us actively take part in that ongoing process now as well.
Thanks for your prayers last week. My friend Lee is slowly recovering and is out of the coma.
Peace.
Mike in SK
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 09:18:06
Oops. What I meant to say was that "I keep coming back to. .", not instructing all of you to do the same.
Mike in SK
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 11:06:54
Thanks to all for engaging images, insights and phrases. Real pump-primers for me.
RevGilmer in Texarkana-no need to quit for the week! You may not be done with good insights to share with us!
From other conversations in my life about church & congregational life, about programs and about evangelism etc. I have found myself being uncomfortable about the "rock images" and more drawn to "Jesus in the boat with the disciples."
RevGilmer in Texarkana, your geography notes do intrigue.
Aslanclan
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 12:08:55
In "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis (my copy of which I can't put my hands on right now), there is a certain quote about Jesus being the Messiah and how describing him as nothing more than a great teacher is no less crazy/insane/mad than the fellow who stands before you claiming to be a poached egg! Anyone remember that quote? I'll look further for it and if I find it in the next day or so I'll pass it on, but it came to my mind as we have been talking about just "who" the Son of Man/Jesus really IS. Might be useful.
(I should state that, while this is the first week I've really added much to the discussion, I've followed DPS discussions every so often and appreciated them. Thank you for the privilege of being part of the conversation.)
Oh and Sally, thank you for the slick way of mentioning my son in a sermon such that it will go over his head!
Heidi in ND
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 17:51:50
Heidi: The quote you're looking for is at the end of Chapter 8 of "Mere Christianity":
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 17:52:35
Oops! Forgot to sign that ...
The note to Heidia with the Lewis quotation is from me.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 21 Aug 2002
Time: 20:00:00
Hi, For the sermon I am inclined to identify cultural and denominational confusion at the time of Jesus and now. At that time the Worship of Pan was entrenched at Caesarea Philippi. At this time Wiccans, Pagans, and various new age groups are growing stronger. At that time there was confusion about whether Jesus was John the Baptist, or Elijah, etc. Today there is confusion and denominational in fighting when we need to be on the same team in our fight against The Opponent.
I am fascinated that Peter found his identity as “the Rock” when he identified “the Christ, the son of the living God.” Today, we come to have a true identity when we recognize Christ.
So two of my points will be 1) like salt in food, Christians can change our culture, and 2) by knowing Christ, we come to know our selves. Leon in NC<><
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 07:05:48
Eric in KS--
Thank you very much. Yes, that's precisely the quote I had in mind (I got it a bit twisted around, but that's the one!).
Heidi in ND
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 07:37:26
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah!" Are Peter and Andrew actually sons of a man named Jonah or is there another message here? Just wondering. fisherfolk in OH
Date: 22 Aug 2002
Time: 08:37:03
Hi folks. I just discovered this site two weeks back and I am greatly enjoying the discussion. It's wonderful to be able to come at things from so many different directions. Two things strike me about this passage. Jesus first asks what people say about "The Son of Man" and then says "who do YOU say that "I" am." Which leads to my second thought, one which I'm playing with for my sermon, do we sometimes get caught up in saying what society, or our church, or our pastor says about Jesus and forget to ask what do I say about Jesus. Who is He for me? What is MY relationship with Jesus. That opens the whole comparison of Peter the person - fell in the water trying to walk, telling Jesus he couldn't go to the cross, denying Jesus to save his neck - and the Peter who recognized Jesus as the Christ - the Peter who became the eloquent leader in the early church. As we ask who Jesus is to each of us, do we encounter these two elements of Peter in ourselves. For what it's worth
the new guy in London Ont
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 09:01:36
NIB has an interesting comment on this passage. It has this to say about the church (body of Christ)
Christ as agent of God is the actor. Church is not a human achievement nor fellowship of like minded believers who have formed a support group. But church is an institution of God who grants the revelation that generates faith, blesses those who receive the revelation, gives then a new idenity, and sends then to continue the work, including authority to make decisions in his name.
That, seems to me is a wonderful outline on which to hinge the whole sermon. Pastor Bob, SC
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 09:28:01
Peter, Petros, Petrified
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 10:22:59
Greetings All
Haven’t written anything in a long time – but I’m a regular visitor. Thanks to Eric in KS for last weeks contributions which helped me a bunch.
Picking up on a previous comment, a seminary professor of mine liked to connect Peter (Rock) with Rocky and mostly the first movie (course that says something of how long its been since seminary) Its an interesting image – a lot of struggle and getting beat-up along the way sort of matches our image of Peter.
I’m mostly leaning on the “Who do you say that I am…” line, and thinking about that not being a static thing. To that end I have picked up a quote from Howard Thurman (former dean of chapel at Howard University) and found in Soul Tsunami (Leonard Sweet) p 102 the quote is:
Thurman used to tell the students that every New Year’s Day he wrote down what he believed about God and compared it with what he had written the year before. He said that if the two papers said the same thing he’d know that he had lost a year
Thanks for great discussion
RWR in UC-TX
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 11:25:38
Thank you revgilmer in Texarkana for the www.barias.com site! It's beautiful! I'd have never imagined anything that gorgeous in that arid part of the world.
I'm also intrigued with the contrast Aslanclan brought up between Peter the Rock and Jesus & the disciples in a boat on water (to which I add Peter stepping out on water) - one so solid, so sure, so unchanging, the other fluid, never the same from one moment to the next.
Welcome back to Harold from AL!
Grace & peace to you all, Mark in WI
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 15:01:38
I've been showing Igniting ministry ads each week and this week is the treehouse, where God wonders why he hasn't heard from you lately. How he misses give you advice. I am attempting to tie that to the question "who do you think I am?" As a child in the treehouse talks to God because God listens, loves and knows all. Do we as adults still talk to God? Do we think His advice is worth asking about? IF we don't who do we say God is. Just a figure head? The Roman's passage will be followed by sing "Lord, Prepare Me to Be a Sancutary. For if we are truely Holy that says a lot about who we belive God is. Just some ramblings. the Grandkids were here this week so I am behind! I praise God for each of you! Nancy-Wi
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 16:28:51
Wow! Great discussion here this week. I, along with many others am going with, "Who do you say I am?" In the culture of the time, there was activity in naming something or someone. It brought it into being. Can we name just who Jesus is in our lives and then claim that. I loved the quote from Howard Thurman. Thanks for that. It all ties together with so many of your discussions. If we can name who Jesus is this year and it is different next year--that's because of the fluidness of Jesus. Yet, there are qualities of Jesus that will remain--the rock. There is so much here this week. Thanks all! lp in CO
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 21:03:17
Hi-I've already gratefully culled out many insights & sentences from the discussions this week. Welcome and thanks to new post-ers.
If anyone is still desperate and wants more exegetical work, Brian Stoffregen (http://crossmarks.com/brian/matt16x13.htm) has done a splendid job of raising up the fullness of this passage. (Sorry, I don't know how to make the address an active link ...) Aslanclan
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 21:04:17
Hey, the address made itself active? Cool. Aslanclan
Date: 23 Aug 2002
Time: 21:48:48
Jesus said unto them, "Who do you say that I am?"
And they answered, "Thou art the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, in the kerygma of which we find the ultimate meaning in our interpersonal relationships."
And Jesus said, "What?"
================
That was how I began a fairly theological sermon on the Markan version of this text a few years ago ... if you would like to read that sermon you can find it at http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/bsermons/propr19b-y2k.htm
I don't think I'm gonna go that way this time .... I'm still toying with that tongue-in-cheek observation of New Pastor on the Jersey Shore about congregations still following 16:20.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 24 Aug 2002
Time: 06:29:54
Here's another link with info on Caesarea Philippi. An interesting fact, we get our prefix pan from the god Pan – meaning all or encompassing all. Could be that Jesus brought the 12 to this place to set in their minds that He was the savior of the all the world and not just the savior of the Jews.
Banyas: Cult Center of the God Pan
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00v60
Date: 24 Aug 2002
Time: 13:46:44
Someone wrote: "An interesting fact, we get our prefix pan from the god Pan – meaning all or encompassing all."
Interesting, yes. Factual? Probably not.
The name Pan is probably derived from the Greek "paon" meaning "shepherd" or "keeper of flocks" -- the word is also the root of our word "pasture" and hence is related to "pastor".
The prefix meaning "all", on the other hand, is derived from the Greek "pas" (meaning "all").
Thus the name of the god and the prefix are, at best, cognates. The equation between Pan and "All" was first drawn only in later antiquity and the early middle ages. Although Pan was worshiped as the lord of "all nature", he was not accorded greater stature than that until the Alexandrian School philosopher-mythologists of the First Century A.D. saw in him a symbol of the "Universe, the Great All."
While Pan's history as an object of worship or philosophical symbol is interesting, I think it's unlikely that it has any particular significance in relation to the Gospel narratives! In fact, it's very unlikely that Jesus cared one whit about Pan as a symbol of anything!
Now ... where did I put those sermon notes...???
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 24 Aug 2002
Time: 16:11:18
Late in the game as it is.... one thing I noticed this reading was that perhaps Jesus' question was a test, not of Peter but of God. Did Jesus ask this knowing God would "bless" one of the twelve with the answer, hence identifying to Jesus, and the blessed one, who was to take the leadership role in the establishment of the church? Also, another idea as to whether the rock was Peter only or also included the other disciples, disciples down through the ages is the "you" in verse 19. Is this a plural or singular You?
I am focussing on Peter being the rock but the rock also including all disciples of Christ through the years, hence we are invited to all be a "part or piece of the rock."
Such is both honor filled and uplifting to be in the company of Peter and the other apostles, as well as humbling to be given the important task of carrying the mantle of spreading or enlarging the rock today.
Apolloguy Tx