vv. 23b-24: And his disciples came and urged him, saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
I think it was my NT prof at seminary who suggested that Jesus' words in v. 24 might be read in the intonation "of a Jewish mother" with interrogative punctuation: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel???"
Blessings, Eric in KS
Jesus' remark about being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel was a tongue in cheek remark. Our sermon group felt that Jesus was trying to show them in a blunt way their own calousness. One other thing to note is that we are to be fervent in our requests, yet we can not use a crowbar to get God to do something. Jesus' general attitude was one of compassion. He had heard the woman's request and intended to help her from the very beginning. PH in OH
Why does Jesus compare helping this woman to throwing children's food to the dogs in vs. 26? It seems so un-Christlike!
katinPA
was Jesus possibly corrected by the woman?
It is interesting that Jesus should say that nothing that goes into the mouth defiles a person, only what comes out. By telling the woman, "It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." Jesus sounds arrogant. Of course, the translation of this text will be important, but to the average reader Jesus sounds like he just put his foot in his mouth.
A New Pastor From the Jersey Shore...
There is a growing, fairly new congregation (same denomination as mine) that was doing all the contemporary things: style of worship, Saturday concerts, mission statements, etc. The youth group went to visit in a local nursing home, got excited about this becoming a regular ministry of the congregation, and went to the church council to get permission and support. The pastor thanked them for their enthusiasm but made it clear that his congregation didn't do those kinds of things -- it wasn't part of their mission statement.
Jesus stated his mission statement -- I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Yet he also recognized when he needed to go beyond the mission statement. Our churches can't respond to every request, so it is important to have our mission statements, so that we can be as faithful as we can be with the resources and work we are given. Yet we also need to be willing to go beyond the mission statement when we are challenged by great faith!
OLAS
"Do you know the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?" Sounds like a highly functioning gossip network. "Let them alone..." Does this set a little example of not getting entangled via second hand information? Perhaps the disciples themselves felt offended. "Are you also still without understanding?" These teachings of Jesus are running contrary to the authorities of the day.
How are our convictions and beliefs changed? What brings us to 'metanoia'-changing our minds?
If imagined in the context of Matthew's community (struggling as it must have to come to terms with Jews and Gentiles both belonging to God's new and inclusive kingdom), this passage could be viewed as an example. Here the Matthean community is given a model of the disciples struggling with the shift in 'rules, attitudes, enculturation'. And more than that, perhaps we see even Jesus changing his mind about the outsiders and expanding his mission.
I would prefer to hear the Jewish mother tone of voice in Jesus answer as Eric in KS notes. The hitch in that explanation for me is the woman's response. Her words seem (at least in this translation) to be correcting or meant to make room for her inclusion in Jesus' world.
Depending on one's view of Jesus before ascension, is there room to believe Jesus could have his mind and heart changed in response to his experience, to the prayers of the people? Could Jesus be changed? I think so. There are enough passages in the OT which disclose God repenting of plans in response to prayers, negotiating, prophet's actions...
The change of Jesus' mind (heart)& direction of mission comes when this outsider will not be shut up, sent away or shamed out of her total focus, her conviction that Jesus heals. "Lord help me." (echoing Peter's cry on the water) Her response to the image of the dogs & food is not to disagree with Jesus but to expand the meaning...even the tiniest remnant of what you bring to the children of Israel will be sufficient to heal my daughter...after that comes the "great is your faith!" complete with exclamation point!(and in contrast to "you of little faith")
The Gentile Canaanite female looks like the one who was set to be a contrast to Pharisees and disciples, and example of the Isaiah passage of "the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord." Aslanclan
Aslanclan write "Could Jesus be changed? I think so."
I think I have to agree remembering that Yahwah at one point was ready to destroy the children of Israel and made a great nation of Moses until Moses pleaded and begged on the perople's behalf and God changed his mind.
Pr.del in Ia
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Jesus says these words in response to the disciples' urging, "Send her away..."
Maybe the emphasis could be on LOST rather than only on ISRAEL. She is not of the house of Israel, but she does have great faith. She is not lost, maybe her daughter is not lost either. Sometimes healing does not come, even for the faithful.
When the woman comes herself, kneeling before Jesus, she knows Jesus can spare a crumb, she believes he can do anything. His challenge to her may be to teach the disciples something more.
(I always disliked this story, --that Jesus would call the foreign woman a dog was so distasteful... But now it reminds me of our little dog who died last March-- he used to sit under the table, mostly at my daughter's chair, waiting anxiously for something to fall. Sometimes, things fell on purpose. Jesus had great compassion, this crumb fell on purpose!)
Forgot to sign, the LOST posting was by me.
Michelle
That last one was by
Michelle
(Couldn't see my posted signature, so tried again.)
Two quick observations:
Two Quick observations:
1. I read somewhere that this passage is one of those "Ah Ha" stories for Jesus. It's as though a light comes on in Christ's head to remind him that he came for the whole world, not just for Israel.
2. If God/Jesus cannot be changed, then why do we pray for things we want, or need? Why do we ask for miracles for those with terminal illnesses? If God is not willing to hear from us, and possibly change His plans, then we all must buy into absolute predistination, thus giving away our free will. Pr.del in Ia is correct in the observation posted. Note also the prophets and judges who reminded God that to thoroughly destroy Israel would ruin God's reputation and name among the people. God would then become a god who simply made and broke promises to a selected/elected people. See Amos 7:2,5.
Steve in NC
PS. Sorry about the previous submission. I hit the wrong key.
Just read a commentary that suggested that the Greek word for "dog" was for a dog that was a house pet, and not the working dog or stray. While that's cold comfort, the commentator (it was on-line and I can't remember who it was, sorry) suggested that she claimed what right she had, to sit at her master's feet and kept after Jesus. It was her claim, however modest it might be, to request a crumb from his table.
I intend to focus on our responses to Jesus. For one thing, I don't think any of us do the Gospel any good trying to guess what Jesus REALLY meant when he made this racist, un-Christlike statement. Sugar-coat it, recast it, whatever, it's exegetical wiggle-room and not included in the account.
The woman's response is perhaps the most appropriate - she's asking for something to go into her mouth - even a mere crumb tossed her way, while at the same time claiming Jesus as Lord. She didn't enter into a philosophical debate with Jesus; she made him hold up his end of the bargain.
So, whether we're eating the bread of life with washed, un-washed, or sanitizer-gelled hands (we use this before serving communion, and this is me rolling my eyes), isn't the idea really to claim our place at his table?
We ARE worthy to gather up the crumbs, she says, because Christ has made it possible. And it's not about eating strictly according to prohibitive Law but about eating with Christ in the first place!
Early ramblings ... good to be back!
Sally in GA
When we're in desperate need, do we care whether Christ washed his hands and fulfilled the law?
Don't we all tend to request God to work and behave according to our specifications?
This reminds me about the dialogue about the morality of political or business leaders. How much is their own business and does not affect us, and how much does? It's hard to say either way.
I do know, however, that when my car breaks down, I want a mechanic to fix it and I don't ask him if he sinned so far that day, which is what the hand-washing thing is really about! How much less would I care if one of my own daughters was sick, whether the doctor had a spiritual life different from mine, so long as she knew how to take care of my daughter and showed her compassion?
Sally again ... still ruminating
Sally in Ga You are on a roll with this passage! Thanks for insights. Aslanclan
I’m not a pastor only a pastor’s wife, I do not believe in pre-destination, I do believe in pre-knowledge. I don’t believe that GOD is so imperfect that He changes his mind, I believe he knows our hearts (sometimes before we know them) He said I knew you when you were in your mother’s womb. Jesus looked down from the cross and died on that cross for me. If this relationship I have with GOD, JESUS, & the HOLY SPIRIT, is not absolute, is not of my choosing because of His nudging, if HE would change his mind that I were not important to be a child of God, where could I put my trust? He doesn’t make you come to Him, He allows you to come to Him, but He knows weather you will or not. I’m no theologian but I love the Lord and I know He is perfect, not changeable. Bobbi
Jesus did not change his mind! Jesus was showing his audience just what they sounded like. These were tounge in cheek remarks. Jesus did not ignore the woman. Jesus' remark about the woman being a dog was simply a repeat of what the crowd was saying. Jesus intended from the beginning to grant this woman's request. Sometimes we need to hear what we sound like in order to change. This story is a teaching. Are we "also without understanding?" PH in OH
The Phrase in this technological world comes to my mind "Garbage in, Garbage out." Funny to compare food going in and coming out. It doesn't matter who you are, or your standing in life, if you can afford to eat Champagne, Caviar, fillet mion. OR you eat Welfare cheese-it all comes out looking the same- like shit. The Pharrassee's perhaps could afford better nutruition and hygiene? This puts an interesting spin on 'us' moral christians, the wino of today takes in the alcohol but perhaps says his prayers before he lays down in his cardboard box. A the tea totaller walks by the wino ignoring him, nostrils snarled when he offers a smile. (Which one is nore christlike?) What comes out of our mouths, can you believe we eat with them! If we take the worldly Garbage in our minds like rascism, prejudice, media slant, rude behaviors etc into our minds , let them fester and to go our hearts , bitter bile comes out.... You are what you eat comes to mind... I see Preachers coming into pulpit acting like Richard Simmons, LOL. The Health people tell us healthy eating style promote better health, well Spiritual Health too, then... you can corellate that. If we take intolerance, bitterness, prejudice in what has to come out...If we take honesty, tolerance, calm, peace, kindness etc, in...what will come out.... Can't make lemonade without apples you know... We who are techno- can say when we put in stuff in computer- this does not compute! LOL Can have a children's sermon from that, a box fixed like computer with items computing and not computing...lady Pastor in OHIO
Does God change His mind? Good question. Does anyone have any biblical examples of God changing His mind? And what does it mean if He does change His mind? Does it make God imperfect, especially if His own creation gives Him the insight to do so?
It seems to me that changing one's mind shows that God has free will just as human beings do. If we have been made in God's image then changing one's mind shouldn't be a quality unique to human beings. It must be a godly gift!
But how will our congregations take it. Here we find Jesus being corrected by a woman. PH in OH has tried to make the arguement that it is a translation issue that can clear up matters for us. But why not examine the question put before us, "does God change His mind?"
We might say that the whole New Testament is a change of mind. At one point God expected His people to uphold the Law. But seeing that He would be lonely in heaven He found another way. Jesus was the prime example of God changing His mind.
Was Matthew trying to share something with the Hebrew people? Maybe Matthew was trying to show his reader that even God could be corrected, and motivated to change His mind out of love for all people.
This is a tough one, but I hope we preach this one by addresing some of the real questions the text raises. It might be considered better preaching.
A New pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Concerning winning arguments with God, we know of Abraham, Moses and others debating God and it seems that this debate with Jesus is much the same. Jesus was not being racist or unkind. This incident with the Canaanite woman is a teaching moment that is meant to reveal to the 12 that the Gospel is meant for all. Jesus' opening remarks reflected the general thinking of Jews and the 12, the woman's faith in Jesus as Lord gave her the courage to debate with him. She effectively destroyed the common argument and Jesus rewarded her faith. Deke in TX – Pace e Bene
P.S. Thanks ever so much to the posters who lauded Meg Wheatley's book, I bought it yesterday and am well into it. I do think that the new model of thinking birthed by quantum physics is having decided effect on our world. There certainly has been a breakdown in our old model. Nothing much seems to work. This is a time to expect great growth in humanity. Deke
To answer a new pastor on the Jersey shore, and others,
See Exodus 32, particularly verse 14, for an example of the Lord repenting (changing his mind) as to how to deal with the stiff-necked Israelites.
Michelle
Over many years I have developed a subset of commentary on the texts called, "How to Take Scripture out of Context and Make it Work for You!" The congregation is good natured about it. THe all time favorite is from Psalm 50 "I will take no bull from your house."
As I see this week's textual argument about handwashing & eating, I wonder about a certain lighthearted misuse for the sake of "seeing what Jesus says about washing your hands."
Deke in Tx-so glad to read that you've picked up the Wheatley book and are enjoying it. I'd be interested in what shifts occur in your thinking as a result of her insights.
PH in OH "Are you also still without understanding?" does seem to be a question Jesus could legitimately ask me on regular occasion. I get confused by the everpresent overlay of our culture and life experience which we bring to our reading of the Bible. Our lives are so unlike those of the first century middle east. And also I am mindful of linguistic (translation) issues. (Was it St. Jerome who said the "Translator is a Traitor") I feel pretty clear about the REALLY BIG STUFF...but the meanings of some of the teachings of Jesus and the Gospel Authors I suspect I don't understand; and the application to our life and times--I'd have to confess I still don't feel very confident in my understanding. I am helped by the various points of view expressed in this forum. Aslanclan
God does not change! We do! God cannot have anything to do with sin, He is a holy God. Therefore, there are times when judgement is pronounced upon people b/c of their sin. And either someone stands in the gap (Moses and the Israelites, Jesus for us on the cross) or the people repent (Jonah and Ninivah (sp?)). God is NOT a God of circumstances. God is a God of FAITH!
Does God always answer our requests/prayers? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes wait. The wait can be for a miriad of reasons...its not time, I am testing your faith in me, there's sin in your life and in order for me to move on your behalf it will have to be dealt with. IF God does not answer us, then we need to ask Him why and to show us why.
t
I still don't think God changes his mind. John's gospel says, "In the beginning was the Word...", so I think sending Jesus into the world was a change on God's part. God knew from the beginning we could not perfectly keep the law and so at the right time he sent his Son into the world. Somewhere Paul says something like this. God knows what we are going to do before we do it. I don't think the problem in this scripture is translation, but rather one of our understanding. PH in OH
I still don't think God changes his mind. John's gospel says, "In the beginning was the Word...", so I think sending Jesus into the world was not a change on God's part. God knew from the beginning we could not perfectly keep the law and so at the right time he sent his Son into the world. Somewhere Paul says something like this. God knows what we are going to do before we do it. I don't think the problem in this scripture is translation, but rather one of our understanding. PH in OH
Why couldn't God change? And why do we equate change with sin? Does change mean that God is less than perfect. Everything in God's creation changes - night into day, rain into sunshine, sadness into joy. Isn't the Psalmist who cried out to God looking for some changes?
I understand that we can misunderstand a text if we fail to do proper exegesis, and perhaps for this one we all should, but what I am wondering is whether or not we should take the translation offered above and try to answer the age old question, "Does God change?"
It seems that one possible translation of Matthew 15 raises the question. Why run from it?
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
PH in OH wrote "God knew from the beginning we could not perfectly keep the law."
"Your statement proposes that God created something for humanity to follow that He knew we could not do. To fail to keep the law is to sin against God. Therefore, God causes humanity to sin by imposing the Law on humanity." I really don't think you mean to say that. You may want to reconsider.
You might re-read what "A New Pastor in NJ" said. "We might say that the whole New Testament is a change of mind. At one point God expected His people to uphold the Law. But seeing that He would be lonely in heaven He found another way. Jesus was the prime example of God changing His mind." I think he has a point.
The evidence in the Old Testament and the whole of the New Testament is about God's ability to change. The static image of God who never changes and who sits separated from humanity is not the image of God who cares enough for his creation to be involved in it. Consider how much faith the Syro-Pheonician woman had to approach Christ and ask him to change in the face of all those around him.
Steve in NC
Here's a link to a homily that says what I wanted to say but better:
http://www.mtsm.org/preaching/homily.htm
God is unchanging and it is we who do the changing because of our encounter with the divine. Our prayers asking God to move towards us is answered before we pray for God is there.Our prayer causes us to move towards God.
There is more than one level in this incident with the Canaanite woman. She is urged by Jesus to make her case for his help and in doing so fully accepts Jesus as Lord. This is something that the disciples haven't grasped at this time.
1John 1:5a - "But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him."
We think that God changes but we are using the changable, ourselves, as the benchmark. So as we change we assume that it is God doing the changing. Hopefully as we become more inline with the will of God this will become a moot point. I don't think that it is much concern to God, He is pleased that we move back towards Him. Deke in TX - Pace e Bene
Perhaps it is that God's being God doesn't change; the identifying qualities of being merciful, just, creative, loving, infinite. Perhaps it is God's action in relationship with us which is changeable.
One of my parishioners says in a creedal sort of way, "God is in the God business. God's gonna do what God's gonna do." But as I consider it, I don't know how this parishioner would answer the question.
The discussion now evokes this question for me-What impact does our conclusion (about Does God Change?) make in our practice of faith or way of praying? In daily living, in our reading of Scripture, in our relationships, in our perception and actions about political and economic systems?
On a different note, Brian Stoffregen's Exegetical Notes at CrossMarks says that this passage is the only use of the phrase "Great" faith in Matthew. As a Canaanite woman she would represent historic enmity with the Jews (the curse of Noah against Canaan; Joshua's conquering the Canaanite lands). Stoffregen writes, "It wasn't she who approached Jesus talking about how great her faith was: 'I really believe in you, so you should do this for me'...if she had any religious training, it wasn't centered on the God of Israel. Perhaps we can define her great faith as coming to Jesus with nothing to offer him, yet trusting him to give her what she needed."
Aslanclan
In this wonderful conversation of "Does God Change?", the word "Change" is problematic for me. Maybe the word "adapt" would be better. To "change" seems to say doing something completely different. When the wind changes when I am sailing, I don't quit and do something different, I adapt. Change sails, or head in a different direction. I'm still sailing. P2
The idea of God being able to change seems extemely problematic for more than a few people.
Who are we, though, to know the mind of God? And who are we to decide for God that God can not change. We just don't have the knowledge or power to prohibit God from change, to be beyond limits as the One who inhabits eternity professes to be, is to be able to change.
When a man and a woman marry, typically the wife wants the man to change and the man wants the woman to stay the same, but generally it doesn't turn out as one plans.
God set limits on himself in the very act of creation. For an all powerfull all present God, God needed to limit himself just to allow material bodies to exist and for will to be active. God further limits himself in the person of Jesus Christ, who though being equal with God,"...emptied himself."
How empty is empty?
For those who argue fore-knowledge versus pre-destination, I can't see how there could be one without the other. To have a sure and certain knowledge would have to follow from a sure and certain course or the future as it becomes the present and turns into history. For the future to be sure and certain, it would have to be set by someone or something, hence pre-destined. Fore-knowledge, therefore, could not exist without pre-destination as far as my mind can see.
God's ability to change, I hope, is open to some extent. Isn't the system of the Trinity an open system which wants to take of creation as it can redeem into itself? Therefore, doesn't that openess mean the ability to change?
a Gentile dog, pr.del in Ia
A professor I had in seminary said the most frightening book of the bible was Acts 10, because it is the story of God changing God's mind. Peter, in that story, knows what has been said about unclean food. He is upholding the covenant passed on to him from centuries of adherence. But the voice from a vision identified by Peter as "the Lord," told him things had changed. What had been called unclean was now clean. If Christ's encounter with a Canaanite woman cchanges his view or extends his mission, it is heartening to think I may be able to rework my own response to those people whose lives lie outside my own "mission statement." Taking this back to the earlier text, people will always get left out when our faith is based on a legalistic code that decides in advanced who is in and who is out. But, o the blessing when we are able to think in terms of relationship rather than right conduct. jp from bg
Does God Change?
I wasn't going to respond to the first post about that question -- seemed a bit off the subject of the Gospel, but then maybe not -- perhaps Jesus does change his mind in this episode and this then might raise the broader question. (I don't really think it does since that would fail to take into account Jesus' full humanity, looking at him solely as God when he is, in fact, fully human as well as fully divine; perhaps the divine does not change, but he clearly experienced changeability in his humanity.)
I have no problem with the idea that God changes ... indeed, I have a problem with the concept of a static and unchanging God! How could I have a growing, vital, dynamic relationship with such a God? Wouldn't that be about the same as a relationship with a static and unchanging brick?
The God of the Hebrew Scriptures (although the Scriptures themselves are contradictory on the matter) seems to change from time to time with the circumstances God encounters in his relationship with Israel/Judah. God speaks through the Prophet Jeremiah about the possibility of God's changing his mind: Jer 26:3 - "It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings." And, of course, there is the changing intention of God in the story of Jonah -- who got so upset with God's changed mind that he was "mad enough to die" (I like Jonah! I can understand him!)
Aren't we taught in Moral Theology (Christian Ethics, if you prefer) that there are certain bits of moral knowledge that we learn from the created order (so called "natural law") because the Creation in some way mirrors its Creator? Part of Creation's reality and beauty is that it changes -- seasons, times of day, the growth and maturing of living things -- if this is part of the intended nature of Creation and if this truly reflects the nature of its Creator, why should we think that God would be different, static and unchangeable? In fact, if WE are "created in the likeness of God" and changeability is a deepseated aspect of our nature, oughtn't we to imagine that that is part of our "likeness" unto God?
I know there's plenty of "I don't change" ascribed to God in the Scriptures (just about as much as there is evidence of God's changing, for that matter). But I wonder if maybe we haven't misunderstood God on that point. There are somethings about God that won't change -- God is Love; God is Absolute; God is the Creator; God is to be Trusted Fully; and so forth -- but I believe that in God's stance toward us, in God's relationship with us, as we mature, God changes with us. Just as we as parents change in relationship to our children as they grow, I believe God changes in relationship with us as we mature.
That's my $.02.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Eric,
Well said. It's worth more than $0.02. Thanks a million.
Steve in NC
I'm not heading in the same direction as most of the posters, but I want to submit a semantical point:
God can change God's mind without changing God's nature. In other words, God may not change, but he still can decide to do something different from what he set out to do. And the biblical evidence is there, from another poster. I'd have used the same example. In fact, some translations say, "And God repented ..."
It seems as though somewhere in the discourse God changing God's nature and God changing God's mind became one and the same. They're two separate concepts.
Sally in GA
Helen Pearson says, "the woman confronted Jesus' narrow perspective with her persistent faith and extended the Lord's table ..." p. 75 in "Do What You Have the Power to Do."
Throughout time, God has demonstrated a relationship with people, whether repenting and sparing the Israelites, or by coming to them in love radical enough to send his own son into the world, it is a relationship. And it is a relationship in which we have access to God through that gift. Who knows what can happen when persistent faith is articulated?
Sally in GA
Interesting debate! The Biblical record is a little ambivalent on the issue. -"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind." 1Sam 15:29. Of course this statement is made by the prophet after God has just changed his mind about Saul being Israel's king (because of Saul's failure to wait on God's instructions).
-Jer. 4:28 says "I have spoken and purposed and I will not change my mind," while 26:13 says "The Lord will change his mind about...you."
-Heb 7:21 says "the Lord has sworn and will not change his mind," quoting Psalm 110:4.
If we really believe in free will and God's desire for a true love relationship with us humans, I think we have to consider that God did perhaps give something up when we were created, as some of the posts had indicated. True free will demands a responsive, involved God. Programmed love from a robot is not true love.
Anyway, the text has several possible themes for preaching. Perhaps in this woman (as in Jacob at Peniel, Gen. 32:24-29), we re-learn that persistence - even wrestling - with God, does not dishonor God. Like Jacob, she hung on till Jesus blessed her. Also, we as fellow Gentiles, are reminded that it is only by the grace of God that we are children of God, included at Abraham's table. Moreover, God cannot help Godself; he/she is "with us" from beginning to end. Crumbs fall to all people, even those "under the table" in the world's eyes - and a crumb of God's grace, like faith the size of a mustard seed, is enough. Finally, we who believe, like the Pharisees, that a place at God's table is saved because of who we are, better think again. There are places at the table only because of who God is.
It is interesting that the only two people in this gospel who impressed Jesus with their faith were Gentiles, our woman ("great faith") and the Capernaum Centurion ("in no one in Israel have I found such faith," 8:10). IN contrast, Jesus' disciples have "little faith" (6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8; 17:20) and his hometown takes offense at him (13:57). The religious leaders reject him outright.
It is also interesting to note that in this Gospel, aside from the slow-minded disciples (who finally "get it") and the false bravado of the Palm Sunday crowd, the only people to recognize and proclaim Jesus as the Messianic "Son of David" are two sets of blind men (9:27; 20:30,31) and our Gentile (Canaanite) woman. What a contrast to the scribes and Pharisees, who when asked whether Jesus could be the "Son of David," blasphemously attribute his power to Beelzebul (12:24).
Matthew's message, an indictment of established Pharisaic Judaism, was strong. To be a child of God, one must receive (have faith in) his son Jesus; and God will have children, one way or another (8:11-12).
As to the "dog" epithet, I still think our modern ears make much more of the comment than would Matthew's intended hearers (a largely, if not exclusively, Jewish-Christian community). Still, though, it must be dealt with. Most persuasively for me, "God has a plan for salvation history" in which salvation is offered first to the Jews (10:6, 15:24) then broadened to include all nations after Easter (28:20). While Jesus was a servant of man, he was first a servant of God; and though he realized that "many will come" to Abraham's table (8:11), he was sent (by God!) to fulfill God's salvation plan - and he intended to be faithful to it. Though God would see to the miraculous conversion of the Gentiles, prior to that time "repentance had to be preached to Israel while the opportunity for repentence remained. There was great urgency, and the energy of the messengers must not be dissipated." Jesus was looking for "lost sheep" of Israel and his "single-minded devotion to his own people was a manifestation of God's faithfulness to his promises."
Sorry about the length of this post. Last semester I did a detailed exegesis on verses 21-28. I hope some of it helps. If anyone needs sources for the passages in quotes, let me know.
All of you are a blessing,
RevKinOK
I do not believe that the New Testament is God changing His mind about the Old. Jesus and Paul make it quite clear that the revelation of the Christ is about clarification of the Old and not its replacement. No one under the Old covenant was saved by the Law. They were saved by their faith (just as the Cannanite woman is). The Law is a matter of common life and of diagnosis of our sin condition.
It would seem to me that the point Jesus is making is in regard to the faith of the woman. The conversation leading up to that point is shocking and uncomfortable (to us Gentiles)but the "Jewish" disciples would have expected the first part of Jesus conversation. The teachable moment comes when Jesus administers grace on top of the Law.
PaxChristi
Sally in GA opined, "It seems as though somewhere in the discourse God changing God's nature and God changing God's mind became one and the same. They're two separate concepts."
I wonder. Seems to me that a change in someone's mind frequently represents, or works, a fundamental change in the person.
Or, are we saying of God what Billy Joel sang:
"Oh, she takes care of herself,
she can wait if she wants;
She's ahead of her time.
Oh, and she never gives out,
and she never gives in;
She just changes her mind."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Have you ever used the approach that Jesus was having a bad day or an off day and that istead of keeping on that way the woman's faith helped him to realize that God wanted the best of him. While it isn't a great theological idea to persue it is a great realization that Jesus had a bad day now and then but he responded in love even when he was tempted to respond in a lesser way. Joe
NO God does not change! God's inherent Nature. But, Changing his mind is something different. Lot's of example of mind changing in the OT and NT. Jonah went to preach to the Ninevites and they repent, God put off their destruction. Moses example another. But, King David couldn't change God's mind, He took His and Bathsheba's first child. What does all mean. On the lighter side feminists would comply God must be a woman, because it's a female perrogative to change their mind! HAHA Not so, God is not male or Female but spirit.But, thatis neither here nor there. All we can do the best we can do for the Lord...Decision and judgement is reserved for God! God has the last word. So, you all can argue about this. But God knows how it will all pan out! Pastor mary in Ohio
Jesus said "I am the Alpha and the Omega."
Perhaps the In-between is what is wide open and changing...
Pr.del in Ia
New Pastor from New Jersey Shore, I think that God's mind can be changed. The biblical references given in response to this question all seem to speak about God acting in response to human decision which are from time to time, flawed. I believe that God can and does change God's mind when the decision will be one which displays more love, more compassion, and more grace in response to our flawed choices and actions. Just thoughts. Peace.
Mike in SK
jp from bg--Your professor's comment about Peter's dream of the laws about clean and unclean changing are a good link here. I have always found the story in Acts 10 stunning. It does partner this discussion because it is about changing somebody's mind and heart for mission.
The human tendency to first identify "outsiders" and then label outsiders as "unclean" is part of an ongoing struggle. One of the strongest qualities I (we) experience in Jesus is his compassion. I think his endless arguments with the Pharisees are deeply rooted in compassion--hoping their "clean/unclean" worldview could be opened to the wider embrace God offers. It does seem like that issue was a huge factor in the early church's mix of enthusiasm and stumbling.
So, then, the proximity of the clean/unclean story and the Canaanite woman story had to hold quite a punch for the early hearers of the gospel. (As it does for us?) Matthew has already included Blessed are the pure (clean?) in heart...what comes out of the heart is...
In another direction, I'm wondering if the 'chaos vs mechanistic' worldview has a part to play in our understandings of a changing or unchanging God?
Thanks for stimulating ideas. Aslanclan
It seems that we really got on to that discussion about God changing his mind. Excuss my theology of God, but aren't we talking about Jesus? This is no earth shaking change in direction of JEsus mind either. He really just seems to be pressing the woman a little further. Howevr, I think that we Gentiles are slighty offended that we were not the original plan of salvation, but we were grafted in. Salvation is to the household of Jews, and we were welcomed in, all of us gentile dogs, to the table. How could our loving JEsus talk to us that way? Here's vote for God does change his mind, here. Remember the flood, and God relented and said he would never destroy the world again by flood. The Peter rise up and eat. In the last days I will pour out my spirit... there are many examples to show God is dynamic. But the basic nature of God never changes. And if you are still there, preacher's wife, never say 'Just' We all do God talk we are all theologians. Gen
NEW DIRECTION!
How about a contrast between Peter, "You of little faith," and the Canaanite woman, who has great faith? PH in OH
Still searching for profound ideas for the weekend.
I love this mind changing talk, but I'm not sure how well that will "preach" in 10 or 15 minutes-
As I visited the family of the man who was killed in our parking lot, I experienced a connection to the text.
Being Irish/German, I was the only white person in this gathering of African Americans and one of the little ones-perhaps 2 or 3 years old- after watching me for a while and inching closer to me reached over and with his finger started to rub my skin.
I don't know if he was trying to rub off my freckles or the white spots in between. But it dawned on me that maybe he was trying to "clean me up" and get that stuff off me so I looked like him.
Under the physical appearence we're all the same as far as basic human needs and emotions. And Jesus and the woman realized that.
Pr.del in Ia
Hi all.
Aslanclan offered something I would like us not to lose:
"The discussion now evokes this question for me-What impact does our conclusion (about Does God Change?) make in our practice of faith or way of praying? In daily living, in our reading of Scripture, in our relationships, in our perception and actions about political and economic systems?"
Indeed! Rubber-hitting-the-road time.
In previous ages, the "unchangeability of God" was used as a justification for royalty to subjugate serfs, and the papacy to put down the reformers. In our day, it is used to justify globalization, the cover-up of sexual abuse, and the setting of standards designed to keep certain people out of our churches (eg. only married pastors need apply, etc.).
But perhaps these examples are too big or too far away. How about something simpler like more frequent celebration of Communion (a current hot-button issue for some of us). The argument against it is invariably, "It won't be as special!" Here the fear of change in that? If only people realized that what they are saying is, "God reaches me through the old way, and won't (or CAN'T!) reach me in any other way!"
I know, I know, this points to a fear of change in ourselves. But given the above comments made by some of us, it seems that we are also afraid of a change in God.
I'm running out of steam for now! More later on how Greek we are....
Rick in Canada, eh?
One thing that never changes with God - God's love for humanity. But the contradiction in any relationship is always that love changes everything. For God to be sincere in God's love for the world, God had no other choice but make some adjustments.
I think this concept of God having the ability to change can be a deep topic for a 15 minute sermon, but the important thing for us preachers is that we study the Scriptures always searching to understand God's true nature.
Perhaps the Good News for the listener this Sunday can be found in God's new mission. No longer does God have a chosen people, but a chosen world in which God has so willingly invited 'less-than-perfect' people into a covenant that begins now and continues for an eternity. This type of God is a life changing God.
I'm sure the desperate Canaanite woman, who could find no one else to rid her daughter of the demon, found great joy in Jesus. Through his willingness to listen, and be corrected, the woman learned that God was not exclusive, heartless, and discriminate. She learned that God is more flexible than the Hebrew people who said they knew Him. And it changed her life!
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Who do you turn to in desperation? Wasn't the woman desperate. Imagine a modern day translation of Matthew 15.
"Just then a dark skinned woman, from the wrong side of the tracks came out and started shouting, "Someone help me, Pastor Jones, my daughter is on drugs."
But the pastor did not answer her at all. And his congregation came and urged him, "What does she want us to do about it? Tell her to go back to her own church."
The pastor answered, "I was only sent to serve my congregation."
But she started crying even harder, saying "will you please help me."
The pastor answered, "Do you expect us to spend the money we saved for new carpet on drug counseling for your daughter?"
She said, "Yes, Pastor, yet even with new carpeting in your church there would be enough to help my daughter."
Then the Pastor answered, "I'll keep you in my prayers." And the daughter was lost forever.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Is Jesus pulling a pun here? Isn't there a similar sound between "Canaanite" and "canine" for dog? Is this true only in Latin, or also in Greek? Did the pun originate with the Israelites, or w/ Jesus?
Also, didn't God say: "Behold, I am doing a NEW thing. Do you not yet perceive it?"
PeacePastor+
how ravenously dogs chase down every single crumb that touches the floor beneath us. How careless we are with the precious food we are given to taste and chew carefully. Do we take so much for granted that others who have not yeat hears but sit paatiently waiting for some offering of hope. Some crumb of grace and healing. When it finally comes they leap at it as though it is the only crumb they may ever recieve. We may be the only crumb someone ever receives. Why don't we just set a place for them instead of scrambling for the crumbs or leftovers? AMPA
how ravenously dogs chase down every single crumb that touches the floor beneath us. How careless we are with the precious food we are given to taste and chew carefully. Do we take so much for granted that others who have not yeat hears but sit paatiently waiting for some offering of hope. Some crumb of grace and healing. When it finally comes they leap at it as though it is the only crumb they may ever recieve. We may be the only crumb someone ever receives. Why don't we just set a place for them instead of scrambling for the crumbs or leftovers? AMPA
Our Wednesday lectionary discussion group felt we were being led to a focus on the EXPANSION of Jesus' mission. (Yes, it took an uppity foreign woman to clarify his mind.)
Both the lesson from Romans (Jews and Gentiles both have a role in God's outreach to the whole world.) and Isaiah (inclusion of foreigners and eunuchs)describe other examples of how we need to overcome our labelling of "outsiders".
The Lutheran pastor in our group said, "You really can't keep off the 'slipperly slope' of universalism if you get very close to the gospel." The question we faced but didn't answer was : "How do we inspire our congregations to think that this is WONDERFUL?" Even we ourselves fall into drawing lines in the sand and claiming special priority because of our birth, training, efforts, gifts, ordination, etc. Why do we humans keep falling into the denigration of others as the way to shore up our own self image? The GOOD news is that God loves me (anyway). Why do I think that God loving everyone else is BAD news? I think in this story we, the church, are the disciples. We want those "others" to be sent away.
Yet Psalm 67 is a celebration of God's love for "ALL the nations". Maybe I'll invite congregation to recite the Psalm again at the end of my sermon. Try to live into it.
Sara, in GR,MI
In all of the debate about whether God can change or not, we need to remember that God's plan has always been to reach out to all people. We Lutherans are using the Isaiah 56 reading this week. There God says that the temple is to be a house of prayer for all people.
The Isrealites changed God's plan. I think Jesus is being sarcastic in reminding the disciples that "dogs" is not God's label but theirs. Jesus willingly goes to non-Jewish territory, where everyone and everything was "unclean" but that never bothers him. I see wonderful mission messages in these lessons (Romans 11, too).
JRW in OH
PeacePastor asked about a possible pun.... unlikely, the words are quite distinct in the Greek, both in spelling and in pronunciation. Canaanite is "Chanaanaios" (the "ch" is gutteral as in modern German and the first "a" is a broad "ah" sound); the word used for dog (litterally a "small dog" or pet dog) is "kunarion" (the "k" is hard and "u" is an "oo" sound like "boot"). So it is unlikely that Matthew is reporting a pun -- my research tells me it doesn't work in Aramaic, either, which Jesus was probably really speaking.
I preached a sermon on this and "uppity women" in 1999. You can find it at
http://stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/prop15a.htm
In fact, the title of the sermon is "Uppity Women" -- that year -- this Sunday of Ordinary Time coincided with the Feast of St. Mary the Virgin -- so we used those propers from the Common of Saints, but I made reference to the propers from the Common of Time.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Actually, on looking over the sermon -- we did use this Gospel (the shortened version), but used the Magnificat in place of the Psalm.
Eric in KS
Sara in GR MI, Thanks for you thoughts. I am especially interested in looking at how Jesus breaks down the artificial walls that divide and proclaims though his actions that God's love and grace is available to all who demonstrate faith. Does anyone else have thoughts in this direction? preachteach
I have enjoyed reading everyone's ideas on the "dog" passage. I believe that someone mentioned that the word used for "dog" in this passage was specifically used for pet dogs. As I re-read the story, my own pet dog's relationship to our family came to mind. There is a lord in our house -- my wife and I can fill that role. With God's help, of course, she and I provide for all of the needs of our family. We have 2 children and 1 golden retriever. If the dog were to come and ask for the food that we had prepared for our children, we would probably respond similarly to Jesus. "No, this food is for our children, not for you." However, our dog may need to remind us that, "I, your dog, cannot provide for myself. I have to rely on you for all that I receive. I know that your children come first. But you also have a responsibility to provide for me." Perhaps, the Jews were the primary receivers of the good news so that they could be care-givers to the rest of the world. We, nor the Jews, can provide salvation for ourselves...we must rely on the Lord. However, a preaching point may center on the responsibility of those who have the gift of grace to be care-givers (in Jesus' name) to the rest of the world. Just a thought. Revross in NC
These contributions draw out so many shadings of this text. Wow! (The story about Stone Soup comes my mind this morning.)
A vague memory: I think there is a Martin Luther quote about a dog's devotion at the master's table being an example of how we Christians should be. Anyone aware of it?
In imagining the text, where is the little girl? I think this whole thing -her life, her mother's 'hysteria', the male foreigners in the crowd (Jesus and Disciples)-- would have been quite frightening.
Aslanclan
As I read the text I see Jesus' comments as using a teaching technique rather than reflecting a fundemental change of mind. I imagine myself in the following scenerio - my husband as done something to make me angry and I'm fuming. I call my mother to complain about him, expect sympathetic utterings. Instead she starts complaining about the husband - "I never liked him, he's not a good person, I don't know why you married him." I expect I'd be shocked and pretty soon I'd start defending him. Mom would be smiling on the other end of the line, realizing that she had made me see how wonderful my husband was,by having the words coming out of my own mouth. It wouldn't have worked if she had defended him, but by agreeing with me, I could see how wrong I was. Is Jesus doing this? Personally I'm more comfortable with Jesus as the wise teacher than someone who suddenly realizes that he has been wrong all along with his mission. Lisa in Central IL
To Revross in NC
My cat thinks he's the lord in our house
Pr.del in IA
I am thinking about the positioning that is taking place, as in how we all seek to project the image that we think is "right", and how Jesus responds to each of the positioning of the Pharisees, the Disciples and the Canaanite woman.
The Pharisees - representing the established church, guardians of the traditions, and appointed authority of Jewish law. Jesus sends them packing.
The Disciples - chosen by Jesus to be his disciples, but still struggling to understand his universal love; the Jewish people still occupying the chosen ground, and wanting to send "her away" for the disturbance she creats. There are many canaanite women at the doors of our churches whom we send away.
The Canaanite Woman - positioning herself as empty handed asking only for mercy with full faith that she can receive healing.
In the end we are all the Canaanite woman looking for healing.
Hal in WI
I am thinking about the positioning that is taking place, as in how we all seek to project the image that we think is "right", and how Jesus responds to each of the positioning of the Pharisees, the Disciples and the Canaanite woman.
The Pharisees - representing the established church, guardians of the traditions, and appointed authority of Jewish law. Jesus sends them packing.
The Disciples - chosen by Jesus to be his disciples, but still struggling to understand his universal love; the Jewish people still occupying the chosen ground, and wanting to send "her away" for the disturbance she creats. There are many canaanite women at the doors of our churches whom we send away.
The Canaanite Woman - positioning herself as empty handed asking only for mercy with full faith that she can receive healing.
In the end we are all the Canaanite woman looking for healing.
Hal in WI
This is just a "what if", I don't know, but what if "throwing the children's bread to the dogs" was such a commonly understood aphorism that all hearers knew what he meant. Example- If I said in response to some statement, "Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander", I wouldn't expect anyone to say,"Oh! Did you hear that? He called her a goose!" No, that's not what I was saying.
Perhaps Jesus was just saying, with a commonly understood truism,"What you ask for is precious. What is your claim on such a miracle?" To which, in her "pup under the table" metaphor she is responding,"I know I have no claim on you. I, like a domesticated pet, merely wait trusting in your grace." Good answer I'd say!
On the other hand, what if calling her a dog was actually even worse than it sounds to our ears? He has just said what comes out our mouths condemns us and here are his 'disciples' saying send her away. Perhaps just as the words in Jesus' mouth sting us, they were meant to sting the ears of his company, to teach by example what he had just said. I like to think they all caught their breath when he said it, thinking,"Well you didn't have to put it so bluntly." Earlier in Matthew Jesus took issue with those who thought they were O.K. with God because they had kept the commandment not to kill. He says, in 5:21-24, that to hate, or to insult, or even to call one a fool carries dire penalties. His advice there is to put off going up to God to sacrifice 'til you 1st reconcile with your 'brother'. Then, teaching by example again, on behalf of those who have belittled her(though only in their minds, to which he gives words) he reconciles with her, righting his little company of lost sheep with God.
A sermon could go either way, maybe both. Good posts, all. It is good to be back online again after being broke down several weeks. My talented son came, assessed the problem, replaced the burnt out power supply and got me booted up again. Good boy! Guess we raised him right. tom in TN(USA)
Does God change God's mind or do people refine their discerning? lp in CO
Hal in WI I can see that positioning you've so clearly described as alive and well within me!
Aslanclan
Sally in GA, Yes, a prof at St. Paul in KC shared the same information on the house pet dogs. Yes, I agree! This scripture is about being worthy to eat the crumbs. It is the thread of the NT--grace! We are not worthy on our own but because God so loved us that God sent Jesus to redeem us. Yes, we can come to the table! lp in CO
This is my first time to this site - thanks for all of your insights. I was looking not only at this text, but also the next two pericopes in Matthew. After Jesus gives the "crumbs" of mercy to the Canaanite woman, he then dispenses millions of crumbs to to 4,000 men. Afterwards the Pharisees and Sadducees still insist on a sign from heaven.
It seems that those who ask for signs do not receive. Those who ask for mercy receive all they ask for and more
Jason in Rancho Cucamonga
I think any being that is capable of thoughtfully reflecting on his/her/its environment, expands to allow for new action and different possibilities. I think God is thoughtful. If God does not change or adapt then why are hours and hours spent on trying to persuade God to do certain things rather than praying for us to be open to every possibility that comes. Can we rationalize with God? Why not?
I think any being that is capable of thoughtfully reflecting on his/her/its environment, expands to allow for new action and different possibilities. I think God is thoughtful. If God does not change or adapt then why are hours and hours spent on trying to persuade God to do certain things rather than praying for us to be open to every possibility that comes. Can we rationalize with God? Why not?
Interesting that the conversation about God changing does not take into account the human nature of Christ.
Great Posts this week. I appreciate and welcome the newcomers to the site. Angelic Residue, OR
Someone wrote, "Interesting that the conversation about God changing does not take into account the human nature of Christ."
You need to re-read the first paragraph of one of my earlier posts.
Eric in KS
Dear Colleagues in Christ, I have been resting and wrestling in these pages for a long time. Your thoughts have blessed me and stirred me to share the conversation with the people of God entrusted to my care. And now, I read this gospel and I feel like one who has had a place at the table, but is preparing to do something that will cast me out. My mother has been suffering for over ten years, due to a cerebral aneurhism. She has required round the clock caregivers, because the part of her brain which controls impulsivity has been destroyed. Mother is allergic to nursing homes. She has a history of firing all her caregivers. I was called yesterday, because of serious concerns on the part of the agency tending to her now. I am an only child. I am giving you the briefest account possible. I am so desperate for my mother to be healed from her confusion and to allow me to take on more direct care for her. She will never be happy if I bring her to my home, because her only sister lives near her, some 500 miles away. I feel like the Canaanite woman, begging God to have mercy on me and to release my mother from the demon that causes her to demand to control her care when she is clearly unable to make good decisions. I long for a crumb to feed my mother...one she will accept. Ann in VA
I'm not sure which I would rather be called - a lost sheep or a dog.
jc
Why was the daughter healed if it was the mother who had faith?
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore?
It always feels good knowing that I am as confused about the Bible as the rest of you.
smily the preacher
Wow! Quite a discussion. After I told a church looking for a last-minute stand-in that I preach from the lectionary and I would almost certainly be using the Gospel reading for this week I came home and read it. And I groaned and immediately turned to the Hebrew scripture and the Epistle. But now you all have me reconsidering.
Thoughts about change. Did Jesus? and Does God? are certainly different questions. Although the first at least raises the second. I come out of a tradition with a strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God. But I can't help reacting to the suggestion that change is necessarily an admission of sin -- or that change on God's part means nothing is certain.
I am both sinful and changeable. But I will always, always, always love my daughters. The fact that I change my mind on occasion should never leave them wondering if I'm going to change my mind about them. So I don't think that it follows that God changing his mind would leave us with an unreliable foundation -- especially since every one of the examples of God apparently changing his mind that I can think of or find (including this one about Jesus, and Jesus' decision to preach to the multitudes when he had planned to be alone, etc.) shows God tempering a decision to justly punish with a greater mercy.
Does God change God's mind? I don't know where I stand on that issue. But for those of you who are certain that the answer is no, I have to ask -- Does God lie to God's own people? If the answer to both questions is no, how do you deal with passages such as the following:
"When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it." Jonah 3:10
I'm not sure that Jonah, who said that he resisted God's call because "I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and repent of evil" would have felt better if God had explained that Jonah was a catspaw and God never intended to do what he told Jonah he would do (and demanded that Jonah share with Ninevah).
Still not sure what I'm doing Sunday. Joseph and his brothers is looking awfully good!
MDWELPIS in Washington State
Ann: Praying for you and your mother right now.
Does your community know what is going on with you, so that they can be upholding you also? I'm sure many at this site will be asking God to spare you a crumb, but please also share your need with those phyically close to you! Let them be "insiders" for you. Sara in GR, MI
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore writes
Why was the daughter healed if it was the mother who had faith?
Remember the paralyzed man lowered through the roof. "When Jesus saw their faith (the faith of the man's friends) he healed him."
We hold up others in our prayers and carry them to Christ.
Pr.del in Ia
praying for Ann and her mother too.
Pr.del in Ia
I'm one of the ones who find Jesus's treatment of this poor desperate mother shocking. It kinda ties a knot in the old WWJD? bracelet. But I think that may be because I don't know Jesus as well as I should.
Something that struck me is that Jesus and this woman (her people actually) had a long history of animosity. She was a Canaanite. All the way back in Genesis, the Lord spoke of destroying the Canaanite (Amorites) people when their sin became full (Gen. 15:16). If you believe in the eternal pre-existence of Christ, He was there that day.
The only reason there were Canaanites in existence is because the Israelites failed to carry out their duty in the conquest of the book of Joshua. God had set them apart to be destroyed for their idolatry.
Jesus's calling this woman a dog is no less out of character than his calling the religious leaders of his day hypocrites. Sometimes he was offensive.
Sometimes we need to be offended so that we can see ourselves as we really are.
It is my understanding that the essence of confession is the willingness to see ourselves and our actions the way God sees them. This woman accepted the designation of DOG, is suspect, because she was aware that she had no right to be appealing to the God that her people had rejected throughout history.
Just a few thoughts
GC in IL
OOPS My last line says
This woman accepted the designation of DOG, is suspect, because she was aware that she had no right to be appealing to the God that her people had rejected throughout history.
It should say ...I suspect....
On the "dog" vs. "house pet" issue, here's an interesting analysis from Lectionary.org:
------------
But the woman notices that Jesus uses the word, not for ordinary dogs (Greek: kuon), but for household pets (Greek: kunariois). Pets are not outsiders but insiders. They not only belong to the family, as livestock do, but are part of the family, as livestock are not. Subordinate to other family members, they nevertheless enjoy privileges denied other animals. While they do not have a seat at the table, they enjoy intimacy at the family's feet. While dining, the family can hardly resist the pleasure of throwing a tender morsel to the pet.
This woman calls Jesus on it! "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table" (v. 27). We can almost see the gleam in her eye as she senses the power of her comment. While acknowledging Jesus' lordship and her own modest place, she claims her rightful, if modest, privileges. She not only believes that Jesus can heal her daughter; she believes that he will heal her daughter. And she is right!
Jesus responds exuberantly, "Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." After parrying hostile religious leaders and prodding balky disciples, Jesus finds this faith-filled woman a joy! He delights in allowing her to best him -- a truly remarkable contrast to the high-powered men who fail time after time to do so. "And her daughter was healed instantly" (v. 28b). Hallelujah! We are almost as pleased as she is!
The full promise of this incident will be realized only after the resurrection. However, "the diminutive 'house-dogs' is a step in a direction from which Jesus will never be able to retreat. The gentiles are no longer outside in the streets; they are now in the house. In a moment they will be at the table" (Bruner, 553).
------------------
The citation is to Bruner, Frederick Dale, Matthew: Volume 2, The Churchbook, Matthew 13-28 (Dallas: Word, 1990).
The full exegesis of the lesson is at http://www.lectionary.org/aug_18_proper15.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
A story about a man and his dog from "Craddock Stories" by Fred Craddock---There once was an old man whose only close friend was his dog. The love between them had deepened over the years. Now both had begin to feel the pain and burden of age. The dog, twelve years old, could hardley walk and was covered with an irritating rash. The old man lifted the dog into his arms and carried it to the car where the dog layed on the seat beside him on the way to see tyhe veterinarian. From the parking lot the old man carried the dog gently inside, "can I help you?" asked the veterinian. The old man still holding his dog, said, "First, I must ask you a question. Do you love animals above everything else?" "Well I love God first. Jesus says in Mark 12:30 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength' And of course the second command is to love your neighbor as oneself. We mus put first things first, and then we can think about the animals." "Then I must go elsewhare," said the old man as he moved toward the door. "Why? What is wrong?" "This dog is my friend" explain the old man, "and I feel I can trust him only to the care of a veterinian who is a Christian."
john in NJ
New Pastor in Jersey
Thanks! That's a great one - and it'll preach pretty well here.
We're doing a "praise and worship" service with lots of music this Sun. Of course, we're doing it pretty stodgily, but I'm keeping the focus on "praise - and what comes out of the mouth." What came out of the woman's mouth but evidence of faith, and isn't that a praise in its own way.
I'm using the ACTS prayer method for an entire worship service. Also, you'd laugh at our mix of music: everything from "How Great thou ARt" to "How Majestic is Your Name," to a hymn version of Beethoven's 9th by our classical vocalist, to a group of female African American college music students. The idea is to use as many genres as possible for praise. Our service is about inclusion, especially as the UMC prepares again for "Open House Month" in Sept.
Rambling ... thanks for letting me sort out my thoughts.
As to whether God chagnes Godself when God changes God's mind - hmmm... far be it from me to compare God with myself, but I don't know that my "self" changes when I change my mind.
Peace be with you.
Sally in GA
I am a long time follower, recent first time poster on this site and have always appreciated the discussion and support of one antothers creativity in ministry. I come today to ask for your prayers. Found out late last night of a young man I have been youth minister to for three years who tried to take his own life on Monday by drinking bleach and slashing his wrists, both of which have left him in a coma. His family is desperate for hope and for healing. His name is Lee. Please remember him and his family in your prayers.
Peace.
Mike in SK
Thanks to all who have contributed. New Pastor, i really appreciated the analogy of the woman who wasn't a member of the congregation - although I don't think a skin description is necessary. Requests from nonmembers happens so much it hits home -
I have been helped by this passage in the past understanding that Jesus could have seen his ministry in a different light after encountering this woman as it woke me to the possibility that God might be calling me to something I had not considered. ( and such a call came while I was out hearing this sermon!- I took it and it was an incredible blessing.)
I also remember thinking of Jesus going on vacation, trying to get away for a bit, and even on vacation, someone needs his help. - I think I was reading a lot of me in that one for sure.
This time I am struck by the inclusion of the earlier verses. Somehow I never put this in that context of the dirty hands doesn't equal dirty heart kind of thing. It makes me lean like Lisa that Jesus is using this as a teachable moment to all involved. Instead of telling a story to bring the point home, he is living that story. This woman isn't to be judged by her exterior, but by her interior. Jesus/God are not to be seen as magicians who do whatever we want by incanting the right words, but are responsive to our real needs.
I also keep thinking of all the people so shocked if a Christian drinks a beer, but not if someone is greedy or full of gossip, etc.
God be with you all in power. rachel
i have done my research, including reading all of your contributions, and now i am beginning to think my ideas are way off......but, let me share my take......i think Jesus, like all of us, was raised in a culture that depends on cultural/ethnic/religious/economic identifications and groupings that at best make us feel like we belong, but at worst serve to divide and break down our communities.
perhaps Jesus' initial response to the woman reflected that very human quality that we all share....after all it is easy to categorize, to go along with the crowd, to remind ourselves of our differences.......it is quite another thing to refuse such cultural definitions and distinctions, to deny the artificial groupings we create so that certain people are oppressed and mistreated.
i will be using this passage to demonstrate the humanity of jesus (last few weeks have been passages that reflect christ's divinity) and that we, like Jesus are subject to seeing people through cultural stigmas as opposed to through God's eyes of unconditional grace and love as realized by the earliest church post resurrection....as easter people we are defined by our membership in the body of christ, not as jews or gentiles
oh, and i will be using the song "Would you harbor me?" by sweet honey and the rock to really push this idea to its most radical place......how willing are you to love, to protect, or to embrace those people in our communities that are hard to love.....here are the words:
Would you harbor me? Would I harbor you? Would you harbor me? Would I harbor you? Would you harbor a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a heretic, convict or spy? Would you harbor a runaway woman or child, a poet, a prophet, a king? Would you harbor an exile, or a refugee, a person living with aids? Would you harbor a Tubman, or Garrett or Truth, a fugitive or a slave? Would you harbor a Haitian, Korean or Czech, a lesbian or a gay? Would you harbor me? Would I harbor you? Would you harbor me? Would I harbor you?
kristin in wi
It seems to me we need not be bothered by "being bothered" by this exchange. I believe we can hear in this account even Jesus being challenged and changed for the better, brought to a fuller sense that his own "mission statement" (as someone put it) was not fully in tune with the "missio dei" (mission of God) he was sent on. In that sense, this passage has strong links to the Romans passage.
We can inquire in what ways our sense(s) of mission have been pushed, opened up--and explore what that is like.
TK in OK
It seems to me we need not be bothered by "being bothered" by this exchange. I believe we can hear in this account even Jesus being challenged and changed for the better, brought to a fuller sense that his own "mission statement" (as someone put it) was not fully in tune with the "missio dei" (mission of God) he was sent on. In that sense, this passage has strong links to the Romans passage.
We can inquire in what ways our sense(s) of mission have been pushed, opened up--and explore what that is like.
TK in OK
As for the conversation about "Does God change?" I would like to add a word or two. Remember, we are asking this question in relation to Jesus' work on earth. Jesus as God-in-the-flesh does some seemingly "un-God-like" things--chief among them being DYING ON A CROSS. So we could change the question, "Can God die?" Answer: yes, insofar as Jesus died a human death. This highlights the astounding mystery of our faith, that God would take on our life and become subject to our limits, even changes and death itself, in order to redeem us, raise us up. The real question is, does JESUS change here? And I think the answer is YES, of course. But the change is in service to the UNCHANGING "missio Dei," namely: the renewal of all creation. What great, good news! Thanks be to God for this "shift" in Jesus' thinking--it means we all are included in what God has always been doing. (See Romans passage)
Last post was by TK in OK
(Sorry for the double post earlier!)
Interesting discussion this week. I, too, am struggling for this week's sermon, but my 'wise' teenage daughter gave me this twist when we were discussing this text. She said: "if we believe that Jesus if fully human and fully divine, why can't this passage show him in both lights?" We talk about the fully divine Jesus all the time, but maybe he was being as human as we are with his wanting to be rid of everyone and still have a request to deal with. Ever feel like that? May not mean much to this discussion, but something worth thinking about from a 14 year old. M in IA
Why is it so difficult to accept the concept of a black woman changing Jesus's perspective? He learned from the experience that he could not preach in his hometown, why could he not be coming to see where his mission was more universal and inclusive of the have nots from a have not with a little "hutspa"along with her faith? DrPat
Eric in KS--Thanks for the quotes from Lectionary.org. Seems like the wordplay on "dog" lets us in on the wit and energy of the exchange between Jesus and the woman. Given how extensive is the regard for pets (dogs) today, I see a congenial point of entry for the congregation.
The offered quotation pulled together some of the diverse thoughts in my head. However, I feel like I'll have to give a 45 minute sermon for all the wonderful insights. (A pastor friend refers to the process of shedding the excess of sermon ideas as "letting go of the little darlings.")
Aren't there some DOG-GOD jokes that have been around?
The Canaanite mother's heavy burden seems to have been given a very real & living weight as those who ask for healing prayers for others make themselves known in this forum. I join my prayers with the DPS community for healing. Aslanclan
I am trult perplexed by all the discussions over Jesus' willinggness or ability to change His mind is not this the same Jesus who gave us the Parable of the widow and the judge LK18:1-6?Why could he not be speaking from His own experiences.Let us not continue the age old arguments over His divinity and His humanity.Its both divine and human to repent and change ones ways.That to me is the hallmark of holiness. AJ in Brooklyn
This discussion has been fascinating, but I think many are missing the point. I don't think Jesus changed His mind at all. What I see here is Jesus using what we often call "a teachable moment." Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had but required it of nobody else. Why? It was a teachable moment. It was what the man needed and it exposed where his faith was (or was not).
Jesus was giving this woman (who was despised by His own disciples) an opportunity to teach them lessons in faith, lessons in prayer, and lessons in whom God accepts. Jesus was doing what He always did - teaching His disciples.
Jesus often gave opportunities for people to show their faith or lack of it. Some, like the Centurian, the man with a demon-possessed child (after the transfiguration, who said, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief), and others showed their faith and Jesus responded. Some, like the rich young ruler and the Pharisees (in the preceeding passages), showed their lack of faith.
For us, Jesus often "sets the stage" for us to demonstrate how much faith we have or have not. An Anglican priest once asked his congregation, "What have you done today that only a Christian would do?" The silence was deafening. What have we done today that demonstrates our faith in Christ?
JG in WI
Wish I had the discipline to write my sermon early! Thought I would add my two cents, for those others who are truly desperate on a Saturday. Have you ever had a hard day at work, came home exhausted, did the evening chores, put on pajamas and went to bed, flipping on the 10 O'clock news only to hear the weather man say "Hard freeze expected in a few hours. Make sure all the plants are inside." Or looking forward to a vacation, counting off the days, and having the boss say at the last minute - "Sorry your vacation has to be canceled until this emergency is dealt with?" I think Jesus is a little weary. He's been healing and casting out demons (always exhausting work) then sparring with the Pharisees. He's off to a place where there are no Jews nor Pharisees and won't be bothered when he encounters this shrieking woman. First he's silent. Then he makes the weird remark. Then he LISTENS. The bottom line is that he was present to her where she was and did something about it. She persevered mightily, and there is also a change in her. She ends up kneeling before him before she gets the blessing. What nagging voices are we refusing to listen to?
Preach the word, my sisters and brothers, Preacher Pat
We seem to be a bit too focused on changable vs nonchangable nature of God. To me that seems to have no bearing on the meaning of the story but more so our own need to have God somehow defined. A definition that I sense we are not very willing to change ourselves.
What is the good news we preach this week? Where does the rubber hit the road?
I have always had trouble with this passage. I don't like to hear anyone called a dog. There are some asides which lighten the insult, one being a pet dog, the other being within the realm of cynics, which she could have been one and Jesus could have been included in that classification, dog was an normal and accepted term. Others say it was said with the wink of an eye. But it's not in the story.
I have to go with the expansion of mission and the inclusion of the excluded. It is also the second time in just a few verses that the disciples wanted to send someone away (first the crowds in the feeding of the 5000) and now the woman. As in Peter's little faith while walking on water and this woman's great faith, there very much seems to be a very intentional connection between these stories.
Good preaching to you all & prayers for Ann & Lee.
It's Saturday morning, and yes I'm desperate...
Mark in WI
Did anyone ever find that Martin Luther quote about the dog? I saw it recently but just cannot find it.
Mark in WI
Did anyone ever find that Martin Luther quote about the dog? I saw it recently but just cannot find it. Also what happened to the date-time stamp?
Mark in WI
A woman in our lectionary group had a good challenge to the "teachable moment" idea:
Do we really believe Jesus, the Divine, would make a laughing stock out of someone just to prove a point to his disciples?
I don't.
Sally in GA
And, speaking of my lectionary group, please pray for us.
Sally
Eric - thanks again for the quote. That was what I'd been referring to earlier.
Sally (3rd time's the charm)
Sally, I don't think anybody laughed. Cringed, more likely. And yes, I do think Jesus sometimes did(and does) push us to show our true selves, not so he can see what we're really made of, but so we can. Until we become aware, how can we repent? tom in TN(USA)
Truly truly desperate this Saturday and wish I had more discipline too. I have a lot that I believe God wants me to say but for some reason just can't get any of it on paper--and my service is at 4pm this afternoon!!!! Pray for my congregation that they are not shortchanged by my procrastination and that God will make sure they hear what they need to hear.
here are some bits and pieces that may help someone: (1) Justa (the name given to the SyroPhoenecian woman in some extraBibical sources) reminds me of the woman with the issue of blood who was willing to be satisfied with just the hem of his garment--Justa is willing to be satisfied with just a crumb, and I see a eucharistic parallel here: even if all you get is a crumb, even if all you or others think you deserve is a crumb, a crumb will supernaturally be enough--and note that this passage is closely followed by the feeding of the 5000.
(2) faith works when it will not quit until it is answered--most people in her circumstances would have walked away in Jesus' moment of silence, figuring, well, I didn't think he was going to help the likes of me anyway. Her ability to wait in faith during Jesus' moment of silence is for me one of the most moving demonstrations of faith in scripture.
(3) I don't buy the doggies/puppies angle. For whatever reason, Jesus called her a derogatory name and it seems completely out of divine character for him, yet the fact that he healed the daughter anyway shows that no matter what derogatory label your life is forced to bear you still have access to God's mercy and healing power.
Last but not least, I touch and agree with the prayers of Ann in VA since I am also an only child caregiver and I know a little about the desperation that involves. I cared for my mother long distance for three years and now she lives with me which solves some problems and causes others.
This is my first post. I love this site and have gotten lots of good stuff from it in the past. Thanks and blessings to you all.
BabyPriest in MA
Ann,
Prayers for you regarding your mother's care. My parents are moving in with me within the month. I am not an only child but perhaps the only one with the ability and means to do this necessary thing. It does solve some problems and creates others that is for sure, but ultimately you need to balance all those considerations. Incidentally my parents are moving 600 miles away to be with me, it means that some of their friends will probably never see them again (especially given their ages and disabilities) but the alternatives are not acceptable either. My prayers are with you, may God lead you to the decision that is best for you and your mother. ks in pa
Mark in WI... is this what you're looking for: "The dog is the most faithful of animals and would be much esteemed were it not so common. Our Lord God has made his greatest gifts the commonest." --Martin Luther
I don't know the source, only the attribution. Sorry.
Eric in KS
Mark in WI -- I suspect that this is what you are looking for:
"Oh, if I could only pray the way this dog watches the meat! All his thoughts are concentrated on the piece of meat. Otherwise he has no thought, wish or hope."
You can find this and other Luther quotes on a site entitled "Luther's Colorful Sayings" -- http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/mlcolor.html
Blessins, Eric in KS
Jesus is not calling the woman a dog, any more than he called somebody a pig when he said "Don't cast your pearls before swine." Just as a pig pays no notice of a pearl, so some ideas are totally lost on some individuals because they don't appreciate them, so sometimes keep your thoughts to yourself. And...Just as you don't rob your children of food to give it to the animals, so God would not deprive his children by giving to those who are not his children. BUT in saying this I think he is stating what the disciples are thinking, not what he's thinking. I don't think he's changing his mind. I see this encounter as an arbitration between two parties who need to come together,or perhaps as a counseling session. The mediator/counselor/arbitrator states a person's position, so that they know that the mediator knows where they're coming from...and also so that they can hear it from someone else's lips. I think that before Jesus could invite the disciples to broaden their understanding of who the children were, they had to know that he was standing firmly with them where they were. They weren't ready for him to side with this "outsider". They must know for sure that they were not on the outside before they were ready to include "others". He wants them to know that he is their messiah, but he's letting them know that that holds more in store for them than they now realize. Jesus said nothing at the first request to give the disciples time to chime in...which they did. Then He voiced what they would have said, and, at the same time, he gave the woman the chance to be a squeaky wheel by giving her the opportunity to keep pushing her point. She likely sensed his desire to listen to her: "Don't stop now, dear. Say what you have to say. You're doing just fine. Don't give up. The fire hoses have been turned on you, the troops have raised their rifles, the laws aren't giving an inch, but you must say what's on your heart." He was pulling them both into his circle by listening to them both.
June NC
Late Log-in
Been scanning the "Can God change?" topic and I assume it refers to Christ in this week's Scripture. I can't explain it, but the Matthew writer gives the impression that Christ is, at least, shocked or caught off guard by this Gentile woman's faith in him
Not the first time--Matt 8 when the centurion asks for healing for his paralyzed servant and Christ appears shocked--"Never have I seen such faith, not even in Israel."
But I'm not sure if Christ is shocked because he is finding faith in unlikely persons or because he ISN'T finding faith where it ought to be--in the Hebrew children--people of God, people of faith, supposedly.
Does he find faith in those who profess to have faith in Him? Does he find faith in us?
AUGGIE in MEM-PHO town
Michelle, and others...
Only now beginning to feel desperate... I titled my sermon... "Gotcha Jesus!"
I like Michelle's image that "THIS CRUMB FELL ON PURPOSE!"
Good stuff... keep it up...
pulpitt in ND
Steve in NC -
Why don't we think God can change God's mind... I like your style! ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Sally in GA
How did you word that...
"I don't think any of us do the Gospel any good trying to guess what Jesus REALLY meant when he made this racist, un-Christlike statement. Sugar-coat it, recast it, whatever, it's exegetical wiggle-room and not included in the account. "
You go preacher! ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Eric...
I agree, you "sell" yourself short at .02 cents.
You go preacher! ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Sally,
You are a preacher with heart... keep it up! Helen Pearson says, "the woman confronted Jesus' narrow perspective with her persistent faith and extended the Lord's table ..." p. 75 in "Do What You Have the Power to Do."
pulpitt in ND
Pr.del in Ia
"But it dawned on me that maybe he was trying to "clean me up" and get that stuff off me so I looked like him. Under the physical appearence we're all the same as far as basic human needs and emotions. And Jesus and the woman realized that."
A WONDERFUL image... thanks for making "God's point clearer and extended the table of belief!"
pulpitt in ND
Ann whose mother is not well and not happy... my prayer join others on this site...
In God's abundant care...
pulpitt in ND
Once again, I went with the lesser discussed text ... I did the Canaanite woman, dog/pet/whatever thing once before (gave you a URL for that already). I decided to ignore Joseph, too, and Paul (which I usually do....) I focused on vv. 15:17-20 of this Gospel lesson and here's what I ended up with: http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/proper15-a-rcl-2002.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Joke about Dog-God: What does an agnostic dyslexic insomniac do? Stays up all night wondering if there really is a dog. To the poster who found out about the young man in a coma from a suicide attempt: I feel for you. I work in a psychiatric hospital. We call mental illness the "no-casserole" disease. People don't bring flowers and food to people who try to kill themselves, so all I can do is encourage you to love him and the family as much as humanly possible, and then some more. mhc in pa
I apologize that I have not read ALL of the entries on this forum. But trivial issues like that have never stopped me from shooting off my big mouth!! I don't remember Luther saying anything about dogs praying (though it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he did!), but I do remember what he's final words were (supposedly) "We are all beggers. This is true."
By the way, I have no idea if God changes or not. I'm not sure we mortals can ever really be sure about that. We can be certain, however, that God is exceedingly interested in our prayers!
Hey Pr.del in IA! Are you ELCA? If so, we may have had the same internship site...
Rev.Darb in ILL
Sally,
Though I doubt you'll see this, I don't think Jesus made the woman a laughing stock for a teachable moment. I believe He made her the recipient of a miracle, and nobody laughs at them. He gave her a platform on which to display her faith.
JG in WI
you have to have faith in Jesus in order to be heald it was the woman faith that help heal her daughter
i think that social forces with or without Jesus come into play. Verse 15:19 show a commonality between humans and how through comman since they know the repurcutions of their actions. Basically that if we live by that simple rule parents and children would not suffer. For the poor in America God bles you and your faith.
i think that social forces with or without Jesus come into play. Verse 15:19 show a commonality between humans and how through comman since they know the repurcutions of their actions. Basically that if we live by that simple rule parents and children would not suffer. For the poor in America God bles you and your faith.