Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 11:03:28

Comments

I won't be able to contribute to the discussion this week, as I am on vacation, but I thought I'd give you an older message I once gave on this text. Just scroll down if you don't want to read it.

Michelle

Years ago on Reading Rainbow, a Public TV program for children hosted by Lavar Burton, they had a feature on the mummies of Egypt. This program explained that the Egyptians believed that they would live again after they died, and it was important that they have a body for that new life. So they preserved the body for new life. At first, the bodies were preserved by burying them in the sand where the hot desert sun would literally bake all the body fluids away. Eventually, professionals developed a process of mummifying the bodies with chemicals, after removing the internal organs, including the brain, from the body. The mummification process took about 8 months, after which the bodies, were buried, along with the person’s possessions, as it appears they believed you could take it with you.

One might wonder how they could believe as they did. After all, surely they knew that those bodies remained dead when grave robbers stole all the possessions but left the body just lying there. Or maybe they believed the new life would be much further in the future, and that the only problem would be that those unfortunate bodies would wake up to new life in poverty since the robbers had made away with their possessions from the graves.

A question brought up by a young girl at the time was whether being made into a mummy would help those people get to heaven, but we need to remember that they didn’t believe in heaven like we do. However, is our teaching of the resurrection really any easier to believe than the Egyptian teaching of the new life to come?

You know, when you watch a television program or a movie based in the future, the characters will on occasion make a reference to the ancient teachings of Christianity, as if Christianity is finally no different than the Greek and Roman mythology developed to explain the unexplainable in a pre-scientific world. Even the stories supposedly in current time rarely deal with the reality of Christian beliefs. We see the human side of church-goers, their sinfulness, fairly often, and in graphic detail, but rarely is the truth of Christian faith shown in such a way as to be observable on even the smallest scale. Maybe faith is too difficult, or unbelievable, to portray on the movie screen.

So we ask, “Do we really have anything that the ancient Egyptians, the Greeks, and the Romans didn’t have, to prove the truth of our faith? Is there any guarantee that our teachings won’t have become just one more ancient religion among the many mythological collections in the books of history?”

You might immediately think of the Bible. But the truth is, that much of our own Bible was passed on orally, by word of mouth, for years before it was written down, just like the Greek and Roman mythology were told and retold time and again.

Or you might recall that we had eye-witnesses to Jesus, his life, his teachings, his death, and the resurrection; but Greek and Roman mythology also had human characters who may have been seen as eye-witnesses by those who believed the stories. We can’t claim to go back 2000 years for irrefutable proof any more than they could. If that’s all that we have, if we have no more than those who believed the stories of Zeus and Apollo, we might be convinced just to go on home, because there’s nothing really there.

And that’s when we are where Peter was as he walked toward Jesus on the water in today’s Gospel lesson. Everything was going just fine. Sure, the wind had caused the boat to be pushed far from shore as they tried to hold it near, waiting for Jesus, but here Jesus was, coming to them, walking on the water toward the boat. And Peter, too, was walking on the waves toward Jesus. What could be better, or greater for Peter, than to experience such a miracle as this? Surely, he had to be convinced!

But then another great gust of wind pushed Peter just a little bit off balance, and the lightening flashed, and the thunder boomed, and Peter looked around and said, “What am I doing? I can’t do this! No one can walk on water -- except God -- and I’m not God!” Peter saw the truth. He was only human. He could not walk on water, because he was human, and he began to sink. He had believed. He had believed that he could walk on water when he saw Jesus doing it, but when confronted with the facts, he knew it was impossible, and he could no longer believe.

Maybe not every day, but certainly on occasion we, too, are confronted with truths that seem to tear away at our faith, facts that seem to describe our teachings as nothing more than myth, invented to make people feel better about themselves, and to lose their fear of dying. It is absurd to believe that the cross of crucifixion can be a sign of life for us as Christians. Paul calls it foolishness in his letter to the Romans. How can we believe in the resurrection, when we’ve seen bodies decayed to dust and burned to ash? How can we believe when science points in different directions all over the place? The body dies and disintegrates. People cannot walk on liquid water. Water does not turn into wine without a lot of mixing and measuring and most of all, time. How can we believe these things, without being ridiculed as fools in this world? It’s impossible.

Yet with God, all things are possible. Peter could walk on the water, even when it wasn’t frozen as it can become during the cold, icey winter, because God made it possible. Way-back-when in Cana, the water did become wine in an instant, because God made it possible. And the resurrection to new life, even after the flesh of these bodies has turned to dust or ash, that resurrection is true, because God makes it possible.

And to believe the impossible, that is the greatest gift God has given us so far, for the sacrifice of the life of Jesus is nothing if you cannot believe it. The life that you were given in the womb of your mother is nothing out of the ordinary, until you believe that life is given to you by God. And the resurrection -- which lies out of sight beyond the wall of death -- that, too, is nothing to you unless you believe.

Do you believe? Can you believe? Is it possible for you to believe the impossible?

I say, “Yes. It is.” You can believe the impossible, because there’s something else at work here. It’s not only your brain, not only your heart, something else is working inside you, right now. God is here. God’s Holy Spirit is here, right now, working to inspire faith in you. God is here, making it possible for you to say, “Yes! I believe!”

And this is where we have more than the ancient Romans and Greeks with all their gods and stories. This is where we have more than the Egyptians with their belief in an afterlife. This is why Christianity will endure into the future, no matter how far we travel in space or time. Because God the Father remains with us, the Holy Spirit continues to work in us, and Jesus waits to greet us in glory. Let the Holy Spirit inspire you to say, “Yes! I believe!”

In Jesus’ name… Amen.


Date: 04 Aug 2002
Time: 06:12:53

Comments

In our lectionary group this past Thursday we spent a good deal of time discussing the idea of chaos. As we read this story about walking on water, we think about gravity. As the original readers of the story heard it, they didn't think gravity, they though chaos. The sea was chaos, a symbol of chaos, and had been for thousands of years.

Jesus walks across that chaos out to his disciples. As he approaches the boat one of his disciples decides to step out into that same chaos knowing that as he does he can do it if it is indeed Jesus. And he succeeds for just a moment until he loses his focus and the chaos overwhelms him and as he sinks he cries out to the one walking on chaos.

Without too much work, but needing to have a bulletin prepared while I'm gone, the title of this week's sermon will be "Walking on Chaos." I'll be canoing the Boundary Waters of northern Minnesota this week, speaking of chaos. I look forward to all your posts as I check back in on Saturday night in preparation for next Sunday.

Mark in WI


Date: 04 Aug 2002
Time: 14:45:17

Comments

I have a dilemma that I'm hoping someone can provide some advice and/or resources for. I have a couple with a seven month year old girl that tragically is not expected to live past a year. The parents would like to baptize the child, but by their own admission do not adhere to belief in the confessions and are only marginally what they would consider to be Christian. I am thinking a baptism is not appropriate at this point, but perhaps a dedication of the child is more what they are seeking. They seem somewhat agreeable. Does anyone know where I could get a service of dedication. Thanks so much. PL, California


Date: 04 Aug 2002
Time: 22:36:45

Comments

I reread some of the comments about this text from three years ago and was struck by the assumption of a few of the writers that that the disciples' boat was a stable refuge from the raging storm. If you have ever experienced a storm at sea, you know that there is no stable point of reference. Being in the boat is as chaotic as being in the raging sea. Take a look at Psalm 107:23-32 which describes those tossed about by the sea as having hearts which are melting because of their peril. If whatever boat we are in is being tossed around by a tempest, then there is no apparent safety either inside or outside the boat. Peter left the boat to see if it was Jesus coming across the water, then he began to sink. Jesus asked him why did his faith waver. Perhaps if his faith were strong, he would have realized that Christ was present with the disciples in the boat, just as Christ is present with us whenever we are in stormy seas. The storm and the boat do not provide us a stable point of reference. Christ is our only stable ground in life's storms. --- At least that is where I think I am heading with this text. BOZ


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 06:48:56

Comments

PL, California

This situation has me wondering who the baptism is for. Is it for the parents, the church, the child, or God? The parents obviously see some value in the batism. That tells me they believe more than you have communicated. I vote baptize the child. "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matt: 19: 14


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 06:50:26

Comments

Sorry, forgot to sign previous post BT IND


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 07:49:39

Comments

PL, California

I,too, would opt for baptizing the child. Baptism is the activity of God and the one being baptized is the recipient of grace and incoporation into the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The parents-though not very decisive- will witness this and thus they may come to believe. ("And a little child shall lead them.")

I can not think of a potentially more powerful service than baptizing a child not expected to live long on this earth.

This will be a future source of consolation to them and to you.

Please baptize the child,

Pr.del in Ia


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 07:55:20

Comments

Walking on water seems to be easy at first but then all of a sudden Pete realizes what he is really doing and then fear takes over. It is my conviction that fear is the biggest issue in our churches. I am afraid to do that because people will talk about me. I am afraid to share my faith with our young people. I am afraid to step forward for this council or committee. I hope to speak to the issue of fear and to tell the folks that fear slows us down to the point that we will do nothing. And trust in God strengthens us to the point where we can do all things because of Christ who loves us. Fear is useless what is needed is trust. priest in Iowa


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 08:17:46

Comments

PL in California,

I come from a tradition where we do not baptize infants, but I'm still leaning towards agreeing with the others that baptizing the baby at this point might be the most pastoral thing you can do.

My tradition believes that children are innocent and do not need baptism until such time that they are conscious of their sin and are able to make an informed choice about baptism and membership in the church universal. When babies are healthy, there is time to educate the parents about this concept and the decision to dedicate rather than baptize. However, when the child is not expected to live and the parents are in agony, they probably aren't ready to hear about such things.

When I was doing hospital chaplaincy, I baptized a 4 month old fetus. I also spent a lot of time once trying to find a Catholic priest willing to baptize a stillborn baby. The family insisted it was their Catholic tradition that the baby had to be baptized. As a protestant minister, I was not acceptable to them for this purpose. The priest on call refused to come in, saying that baptism was for the living, not the dead. I finally found a priest who was quite happy to come and talk with the family and do what they needed to be comforted and brought close to God.

Obviously, there is a lot of disagreement on this issue within traditions, but I find being pastoral and loving in times of crisis gives me a more credit when it's time to talk about doctrine or such things.

CMW in IL


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 09:48:20

Comments

PL in Calif: A service of dedication involves vows to bring a child up in a Christian home. This won't be possible for these parents. If you do want one, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) has a service in the service book for the new Chalice Hymnal. If you get stuck and can not get one from a local pastor, e-mail me at hunt@clover.net. PH in OH


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 10:27:56

Comments

Thanks to all who have contributed to helping me with my dilemma concerning the ill child whose parents are seeking baptism for her. I also apologize to those who prefer this site to remain for text discussion only. Many have voiced concern that the pastoral concerns for the parents should take precedence over doctrinal/theological matters. I agree in most cases. I was a chaplain faced with a similar situation of baptizing an infant not expected to live, which I did with little or no reservation. I think the dilemma I see here is more of the parent's reservations about the Lutheran service of baptism. They don't want to say the creed and are uncomfortable with some of the language of our service. They are not comfortable taking vows they do not intend to keep, nor in proclaiming doctrine they do not believe, which I respect. I'm not sure if this changes the picture a bit or not. Again, many thanks to all who have taken the time to help.


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 10:28:40

Comments

Sorry, forgot to sign. PL, California


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 12:00:16

Comments

PL, California,

I'm a Lutheran pastor too, who would be hard pressed to leave out the Creed. There are a couple options: 1. Have a representative from your church act as sponsor and answer for the child.

2. Phrase the creed in question form and ask the child.

3. Remember that the sacrament of Baptism pre-dates the Creed and some baptisms are referenced as being in the name of Jesus.

4. Remember Luther's advice "...if you sin, sin boldly."


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 12:00:57

Comments

sorry, forgot to sign

Pr.del in Ia


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 12:06:55

Comments

A few years ago I had a young man who wanted to be baptized after going through the confirmation class. I asked him how he wanted to be baptized and he replied, "By submersion." I said, "I think you mean 'immersion." "What's the difference?" he asked. "With immersion, I let you back up out of the water."

Peter also seemed anxious to avoid "submersion!"

OLAS


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 14:38:47

Comments

PL:

I too vote for baptizing the child. It is God who is at work in baptism. How God shall work through that little child's life has yet to be fully revealed. I agree with the unnamed post (A little child shall lead them) KS in PA


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 14:40:09

Comments

sorry it was not unnamed it was del, my computer decided to have blank out part of the post. ks in PA


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 17:43:12

Comments

PL, California,

One more vote for baptism. It is God at work regardless of the words that are or are not said. I don't think John the Baptist or any of the disciples used the Creed when they baptized. Understanding the desire to stay within the denomination's guidelines, I like the suggestion of having a sponsor say the Creed.

Ultimately who you do or do not baptize is a matter between you and God. My prayers are with you that God will give you the right answer in a way you are able to clearly discern.

Peace, katinPA


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 18:58:24

Comments

PL and other dear friends,

Typically I don?t like to rebound stories, however, as stories really do have their own life, perhaps it is appropriate to do so at this point. Perhaps I might be forgiven for this bit of reiteration. For you see, this is a story about walking on water ? it?s a story about going onto the stormy sea, never sure of the result ? but sink or no, sometimes that is the place where we are called. And so, I offer this up ? it seems to speak to both questions at hand.

Baptism ? an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace.

My friend, Jeff, tells this story.

?They had asked me to be on duty. I did not especially want to be ? on duty, that is. After all, it was going to be over the holidays, and holidays, well ? holidays are meant for the family. But, we were close friends and she was so excited about this birth and I WAS the hospital chaplain, so ?

They admitted her. They knew it would be a difficult delivery and didn?t want to take any chances, so they admitted her on a Monday evening. I took the night shifts for the week and because they wanted me there, I decided that I would sleep at the hospital. I figured that I would be there for one or two days, certainly no more than that. Of course, I was wrong. Babies being babies, she didn?t give birth until Friday.

By this time I was exhausted. It was in the wee hours of the morning and I had just settled into my much too small cot for a well-deserved snooze when my beeper went off. It was time. Quickly I arose, threw on my greens and rushed to the delivery room.

It really didn?t take me long to get there. Certainly not more than one or two minutes. But when I walked into the room, I knew something was wrong, terribly, terribly wrong. Where there should have been the warmth of new life, instead there was just the inanimate emptiness of cold linoleum and tile walls. Where there should have been the healthy wail of new birth, instead there was just the silence, the silence of shock and horror and loss. The silence soon broken by sobs of the mother and father, the heart-rending sobs.

I?m not sure I have ever felt so lost in all my life. What could I do? What could I say? I stood by them and held on to them and cried with them. It was all that I could do. And there we were, frozen into a tight circle of grief, clutching one another, holding on to one another?s pain, holding on, for we could do no other.

After awhile, over the ticking of the clock, ever so softly, her voice broke the silence. ?I want you to baptize my baby.? And then louder and more urgent. ?I want you to baptize my baby!? ?Please, baptize my little girl, baptize our daughter.?

The baby was dead. The baby was dead and in the Presbyterian Church, we don?t baptize dead infants. We don?t baptize dead infants.

But I did baptize my friends? daughter. I baptized her for the life that she was, the life that she is. I baptized her for the promise she represented. I baptized her because Christ had dwelled within that small body. I baptized her because she was a product of God?s continuing grace within our lives, within the body of faith, within the realm of our human condition, and the love within this family. I baptized her because her life had brought meaning and hope and joy to this community, a community which extended beyond this event, beyond this family, beyond this moment. I baptized her because it was the right thing to do.?

My friend, the friend who demonstrated love in the nightmare of this circumstance, understood sacrament. In that place at that moment, polity and debate and ?proper? theological activity had no meaning. All that had meaning was Christ. And in that cold delivery room, immersed in the overwhelming pain, he proclaimed the promise of Christ and the joy of God. In that cold delivery room, immersed in the overwhelming pain, he proclaimed hope and life and love. He proclaimed God?s grace.

Sometimes we are called into that place where we have never ventured, into the realm of storm where the end is always in doubt. Yet it is there, in the midst of the maelstrom, in that place where we no longer have control ? that Christ appears. And we wonder ? we wonder why we ever doubted at all.

Shalom my friends,

Nail-Bender in NC


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 19:00:53

Comments

Ok, we try again with proper punctuation marks.

PL and other dear friends,

Typically I don’t like to rebound stories, however, as stories really do have their own life, perhaps it is appropriate to do so at this point. For you see, this is a story about walking on water – it’s a story about going onto the stormy sea, never sure of the result … but sink or no, sometimes that is the place where we are called. And so, I offer this up … it seems to speak to both questions at hand.

Baptism – an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace.

My friend, Jeff, tells this story.

“They had asked me to be on duty. I did not especially want to be – on duty, that is. After all, it was going to be over the holidays, and holidays, well … holidays are meant for the family. But, we were close friends and she was so excited about this birth and I WAS the hospital chaplain, so …

They admitted her. They knew it would be a difficult delivery and didn’t want to take any chances, so they admitted her on a Monday evening. I took the night shifts for the week and because they wanted me there, I decided that I would sleep at the hospital. I figured that I would be there for one or two days, certainly no more than that. Of course, I was wrong. Babies being babies, she didn’t give birth until Friday.

By this time I was exhausted. It was in the wee hours of the morning and I had just settled into my much too small cot for a well-deserved snooze when my beeper went off. It was time. Quickly I arose, threw on my greens and rushed to the delivery room.

It really didn’t take me long to get there. Certainly not more than one or two minutes. But when I walked into the room, I knew something was wrong, terribly, terribly wrong. Where there should have been the warmth of new life, instead there was just the inanimate emptiness of cold linoleum and tile walls. Where there should have been the healthy wail of new birth, instead there was just the silence, the silence of shock and horror and loss. The silence soon broken by sobs of the mother and father, the heart-rending sobs.

I’m not sure I have ever felt so lost in all my life. What could I do? What could I say? I stood by them and held on to them and cried with them. It was all that I could do. And there we were, frozen into a tight circle of grief, clutching one another, holding on to one another’s pain, holding on, for we could do no other.

After awhile, over the ticking of the clock, ever so softly, her voice broke the silence. “I want you to baptize my baby.” And then louder and more urgent. “I want you to baptize my baby!” “Please, baptize my little girl, baptize our daughter.”

The baby was dead. The baby was dead and in the Presbyterian Church, we don’t baptize dead infants. We don’t baptize dead infants.

But I did baptize my friends’ daughter. I baptized her for the life that she was, the life that she is. I baptized her for the promise she represented. I baptized her because Christ had dwelled within that small body. I baptized her because she was a product of God’s continuing grace within our lives, within the body of faith, within the realm of our human condition, and the love within this family. I baptized her because her life had brought meaning and hope and joy to this community, a community which extended beyond this event, beyond this family, beyond this moment. I baptized her because it was the right thing to do.”

My friend, the friend who demonstrated love in the nightmare of this circumstance, understood sacrament. In that place at that moment, polity and debate and “proper” theological activity had no meaning. All that had meaning was Christ. And in that cold delivery room, immersed in the overwhelming pain, he proclaimed the promise of Christ and the joy of God. In that cold delivery room, immersed in the overwhelming pain, he proclaimed hope and life and love. He proclaimed God’s grace.

Sometimes we are called into that place where we have never ventured, into the realm of storm where the end is always in doubt. Yet it is there, in the midst of the maelstrom, in that place where we no longer have control … that Christ appears. And we wonder … we wonder why we ever doubted at all.

Shalom my friends,

Nail-Bender in NC


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 19:23:50

Comments

PL, Baptize that child - This is a moment that may allow the parents to see God at work and as has been said, Baptism is a work of God. Let your hand carry that child to the water and pour its life on her.

About the text, I don't know where this came from but I remember someone observing that Peter step out in to the water and everything was fine until he took his eyes off of Jesus - that's when he got his socks wet.

This is something that is important in this story. If we start out toward's God and we falter - our striving for grace is honored by our wonderful Father who will extend the hand of Jesus to help us out of the depths. Deke in TX Pace e Bene


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 21:07:24

Comments

I baptize you in the name of the Father, because I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I baptize you in the name of the Son, because I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I baptize you in the name of the Holy Spirit, because I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.


Date: 05 Aug 2002
Time: 21:11:39

Comments

ISSUE ONE-baptize the child. I agree with the others. God is the main force in baptizm, and it would be a great witness of God's adoption of this child, even if the parents won't make the vow. Can a child be anymre alone and yet God will receive the child?

ISSUE TWO---Does anyone think that Christ's question to Peter ("O man of little faith, why did you doubt?") might refer to Peter's initial doubt as to Christ's identity which prompted the challenge("Lord, if it is you, bid me to come to you.")

AUGGIE in Mem--pho town


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 02:44:14

Comments

Maybe it is just me, Nailbender, but I like the story better with the "wrong" punctuation marks. The question marks may speak a little better to what Peter felt as he left the boat as surely as you questioned and wrestled with the doctrinal issues of the baptism of the dead child.

jjinchassc


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 03:14:35

Comments

Many times we use Peter as the "straw man" in this story, of having too little faith--- "If only he would have kept his eyes on the Lord..."

Yet I am wrestling with the idea that maybe Christ called Peter to fail. Peter did have the courage to leave the boat (something the others did not). But it is in the experience, the risk, that Peter's faith would grow. Yes, he had little faith; but the only way it would grow would be to use it. In leaving the boat Peter risks. His growing faith can cry out "Lord, help me." Indeed, the disciples' faith grew out of this experience--- who they see as a ghost at first is not recognized after Peter's steps as the Son of God.

In what the world percieves as failure can come the growth of faith or the revelation of God. After all, didn't the folks at Calvary think it was all over with the cross?

Peace, jj in chassc


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 03:23:04

Comments

speaking of failure and risk and growing, I failed to proofread my submission before pressing submitting it should read ... "as a ghost IS recognized as the Son of God..."

Trying to learn from my failures, jj in chas sc


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 06:22:53

Comments

In the Lutheran tradition of late (ELCA) the phrase "Word Alone" has been kicked around pretty freely. Peter heard the word, "Come" yet he began to sink. The "Word Alone" did not keep Peter from sinking, his "little faith" caused him to sink dispite hearing the word. If we say "Word Alone" are we saying that God's revalation is dead? This is a wonderful preaching text, I like the comments about chaos. Ray in ND


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 07:31:44

Comments

Luther--Shmuter; Wesley--Shmesley; Calvin--Shmalvin! Jesus would baptize the baby. CSW in GA


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 08:05:39

Comments

jj.......I like the approach that Christ called Peter to fail. But for what purpose? Failure leads to a deeper questioning, and a deeper appreciation of others. Failure teaches us much more than success if we are willing to learn.... BABTIZE THE BABE...catholic priest here in Iowa!


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 08:36:15

Comments

Since to the early church Peter represented "the Church" I am taking the tact of the church needing to get out of the boat and risk and only then does it receive resurrection. This is not work ethics. Just that staying safe prevents new life. So I am listening to see what Jesus is calling my church to risk at this time. I'm thinking about the unjust war theory re. Iraq. What else?

The baptismal discussion reminds me this really is a baptismal text - great for adult baptism, but yet great for infant baptism - what is it that calls these parents to desire baptism even when the old words don't work for them? Is it Jesus saying, "Come?" Remember baptism is God's "Yes" to us! Maybe there is someone in the cloud of witnesses who is standing up to welcome this child into God's realm! I too would have a congregational sponsor.

Caroline in MA/USA


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 08:53:00

Comments

Faith without works is dead! Teaching that next week in VBS Adult Class... This sermon will be a teaser for that concept! I am using Roman and Matthew "Beautiful Feet" and Beautiful feat.... Going to use foot stories...all the way to John and Charles Wesley. I have rural farm people as a congregation.so Southern Gospel is the thing here... Going to Use the Song "When the waves are over your head they're under His Feet!" Verse 1- Jesus said Come, and Peter went, and when his faith and hope was spent, Peter Got out of the boat, yeah, he had fear and went down...BUT Jesus was right there all the time holding his hand, carying him thru... When Jesus says COME! DO we as Pastors, Do our congregations? I think I will preach bare foot this sunday! Pastor Mary


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 08:56:48

Comments

For all the well-spoken points already expressed, I too vote to baptize. It is God's gift -- who are we to judge who is appropriate? lsh in nj


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 09:43:03

Comments

RE: ISSUE TWO---Does anyone think that Christ's question to Peter ("O man of little faith, why did you doubt?") might refer to Peter's initial doubt as to Christ's identity which prompted the challenge("Lord, if it is you, bid me to come to you.") from AUGGIE in Mem--pho town

I was wondering the same thing. Isn't faith a gift from God, even to Peter? I have trouble with the idea that faith is something I intellectualize, and I struggle with the idea that Jesus would set Peter up to fail. But, after reading this story many times through the years, I was struck for the first time with the idea that perhaps it is Peter's statement "Lord . . . if it IS you . . ." that Jesus is asking "Why did you doubt?" The disciples thought Jesus was a ghost and were fearful. Perhaps Jesus was asking why Peter doubted that Jesus would be present in his time of trouble. Jesus had just proven that he was capable of taking their 'little faith' in the form of 2 fish and 5 loaves and multiplying it to take care of everyone.

The New Interpreter's Bible Commentary makes these statements I find helpful: "For Matthew, Peter's problem was not only that he took his eyes off Jesus, but that he wanted proof of the presence of Christ, and so left the boat in the first place. . . The message is not "If he had had enough faith, he could have walked on the water," just as the message to us is not "If we had enough faith, we could overcome all our problems in spectacular ways." . . . this view encourages us to feel guilty because of our "lack of faith." What if the message of this text were "If he had had enough faith, he would have believed the word of Jesus that came to him in the boat as mediating the presence and reality of God"? (emphasis on 'in the boat') Faith is not being able to walk on the water -- only God can do that -- but daring to believe, in the face of all the evidence, that God is with us in the boat, made real in the community of faith as it makes its way through the storm, battered by the waves."

It helps me to remember that the Gospel of Matthew is all about "God with us." See Matt 1:23 and Matt 28:20 which serve as brackets.

RevGranny in TX


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 11:22:51

Comments

Stormy waters in our nieghborhood.

Last night a man was gunned down and killed in our church parking lot. Media frenzy out there and nieghbors are anxious and scared.

keep our area in your prayers.

Pr.del in Ia


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 11:23:06

Comments

I don't think Peter had little faith. I think Peter had a lot of faith. He was the one who got out of the boat.

I'm not even sure Peter was "called to fail", although I think I basically agree with the point that writer is making.

I think Peter succeeded. Firstly, he got out of the boat. He walked on water. Surely these are great things. He had the faith in Jesus. He did something we have no record of anyone other than Jesus ever doing.

Secondly, he was rescued by Jesus. Sure, there is a lesson to be learned that Peter should not have taken his eyes off Jesus, that he should not have worried about what was going on around him, that he should not have doubted. However, in the end he was rescued by Jesus. The rest of the disciples were still in the boat in the storm. They knew the safety Jesus brought when Jesus finally arrived at the boat. Peter knew that safety even sooner, when Jesus reached out to him.

How many of us as pastors, how many of our churches, are sitting in the boat -- afraid of the world which storms around us? It's time to get our sorry butts out of the boats, to reach out for Jesus, and as another writer here said, "Walk in Chaos".

-- Just another preacher in Philly


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 11:23:36

Comments

I don't think Peter had little faith. I think Peter had a lot of faith. He was the one who got out of the boat.

I'm not even sure Peter was "called to fail", although I think I basically agree with the point that writer is making.

I think Peter succeeded. Firstly, he got out of the boat. He walked on water. Surely these are great things. He had the faith in Jesus. He did something we have no record of anyone other than Jesus ever doing.

Secondly, he was rescued by Jesus. Sure, there is a lesson to be learned that Peter should not have taken his eyes off Jesus, that he should not have worried about what was going on around him, that he should not have doubted. However, in the end he was rescued by Jesus. The rest of the disciples were still in the boat in the storm. They knew the safety Jesus brought when Jesus finally arrived at the boat. Peter knew that safety even sooner, when Jesus reached out to him.

How many of us as pastors, how many of our churches, are sitting in the boat -- afraid of the world which storms around us? It's time to get our sorry butts out of the boats, to reach out for Jesus, and as another writer here said, "Walk in Chaos".

-- Just another preacher in Philly


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 11:46:47

Comments

PL -- for what it's worth, this Anglo-Cathlic Episcopalian votes for baptism, too!

About the Gospel lesson ... you've all said such wonderful things about Peter and Jesus walking (or not walking) on the water, but I am going to pretty much ignore all of that and focus on verse 23: "After he had dismissed the crowds, he went up the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone."

It came to me this morning that the single most important thing clergy can do for the congregations, parents for their children, teachers for the students, etc., is take physical and spiritual care of themselves -- (Don't as my why that came to me this morning, it was just part of a long train of thought.) -- and that Jesus here is setting the example of this.

When he tried to get away to mourn John, the crowds made that impossible, so he spent the day with them, healing, teaching, multiplying food... I'm sure that was about as emotionally, spiritually, and physically draining a day as Jesus could have spent. So going away by himself to pray, to rest, to spiritually recharge was absolutely necessary...

I wonder if he would even have tried that water-walking stunt without that personal care time.

I need to be encouraged to find and make use of personal time -- as I know many of my colleagues do -- and I am pretty sure that many of our congregants do too! My wife, for example, is absolutely the worst at making space and time for herself, and she pays the price every so often! We should encourage our folks to follow Jesus example, not by trying to walk on the water, but by going away to a private place to pray and find themselves alone with God.

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 12:42:27

Comments

Yes, baptize the baby!

Now to the scripture...A question to ponder... Who had more faith - Peter, who got out of the boat and walked on water or the disciples, who remained in the so-called safety of the boat? Peter had questions, "If you are...", but at least he had enough to get out of the boat. Jesus did not say Peter had no faith. He had at least a little. We need to remember what happens if we have faith even the size of a mustard seed. Ahhhhhhhhhh! Is the average congregation more like the disciples in the boat. We like the safety of our four walls while storms rage around us. We need to get out of our fortress church boats and have at least the faith Peter had. How many of us are clinging to our boats as they sink? How many cling to old ways that just aren't working any more? PH in OH


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 13:54:13

Comments

PL in California, A vote from a Canadian Anglican: Please baptize the child! Liturgically, the service of baptism incorporates not only the child and the parents, but the gathered congregation and the wider Church. What an incredible witness to the parents that not only you cared enough to do this, but that everyone else present supports them and stands in solidarity with them in their time of deepest need. For what it's worth, I see this as an opportunity (for you, for the family, and for the wider Christian family) for baptism to be lived and embodied in love expressed in actions as well as words. My prayers are with you. I know that it's not an easy decision to make. Peace. Mike in SK


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 15:30:53

Comments

If we must err, let our errors be on the side of grace. God's grace is the only way we are saved. Please baptize that child. May God's grace abound. from a Lutheran Pastor in NJ (who is also the mother of a child who died).

As for the gospel - yes - we need to get out of the boat - into the waters - the chaos of the world. By baptizing that child, you may be stepping into chaos, but Christ is with you.


Date: 06 Aug 2002
Time: 18:32:19

Comments

It seems to me there is a little more in this gospel that inspires me to think more deeply. The boat, full of the other disciples, was probably pretty crowded - as fishing boats went in those days. But there was an awful lot of room on the water - for anyone willing to go. Just my initial thoughts as I prepare for this Sunday. Would appreciate other thoughts on this.

Thanks. - WE in AB


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 06:33:21

Comments

I wonder how many of us preach about faith and tell our congregations that faith has to stand on its own--that we aren't supposed to "test" or call on Christ to "prove" himself--that seeking proof is the opposite of faith. Yet, what I'm hearing is how faithful Peter was and unfaithful the rest of the disciples were by staying in the boat. We need to watch our exegesis here. If we're going to use this to tell congregations to get out of the boat--using Peter as an example?-- our folks are smart and if they compare, they will see we are asking them to ask Christ to prove himself. We need to be consistent with how we define faith--Christ had already identified himself. Christ had already spoken a word of comfort and Peter wants more proof. Maybe Peter was afraid to stay in the boat (They had been fighting this all night, it sounds like) because Peter suggested the test. Let me walk out of here! I don't mean to jump on Peter, but this Scripture is a little more complicated that we are making it out to be. Sometimes, it takes faith to stay where one is and not get caught where one is not supposed to be. If we want to tell congregations to get out of the boat, why didn't Peter ask Christ, "Lord, if it is you, bid US to come to you on the water." and then tell the guys, "It alright, boys, let's go!"

AUGGIE


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 06:59:44

Comments

I appreciate the discussion on Christ in the midst of chaos. It seems the disciples often find themselves in a dilemma, in chaotic situations (hungry crowds and little food, boats in storms, etc). And they draw conclusions or invent solutions that Jesus corrects or addresses. The Gospel writers record these situations that remind us of the power of God to work when hope seems lost and we are at our weakest. Eleven months ago, a team of us, to include chaplains, were removing the remains of Americans from the ruins of the southwest corner of the Pentagon. To be able to offer comfort to families, the Chief of Chaplains requested chaplain teams to assist and to pray over the remains as they were removed. In the soot-covered, darkened corridors, soldiers and civilians performed the awful task of search and recovery. As I blessed one body, then another, and another I asked God to sustain me. As I prayed over the remains of one woman, I noticed she wore a blouse identical to one that hangs in my wife's closet. Same color, same material. In awful times and places, we look for solace, strength, and courage to continue. And Christ IS there with His sustaining love and grace, ALWAYS. He is there in the darkest, coldest mines when life seems lost. He is there when death is all around on a battlefield. He is there when parents seek comfort when their child is missing. Christ doesn't show up in a nick of time. He is where He needs to be, abiding with His sheep. I know. ARMY CH E, Ft Belvoir, VA


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 08:28:44

Comments

When I was in high school, my best friend asked me to go sailing with him. His family had just bought a 27 foot Santana sailboat,berthed on Lake Meredith in the Panhandle of Texas (obviously a man-made lake). Meredith is shaped like a shoestring- long and narrow-and also deep- a canyon thtat invites strong winds.So Jim and I set out early one afternoon. Jim started using all these nautical terms, which, I, who had grown up on the plains of Northwest Texas, had never heard. Still, we managed to get the boat out on the lake, but the wind was very strong. The sailboat had several thousand pounds of ballast (at least that's what Jim said) to keep it upright. But the wind was strong, and as we tacked (turned) the boat into the wind, I thought to ask Jim, "So, how many times have you been sailing?" He replied, "Oh, this is only my second time!" (Jim spoke with a North Carolina drawl which mushed the words together. Still, I understood him perfectly-unfortunately)

So, we two rookies struggled (and when the wind is high and against you- the boat does not feel safe at all!)With our inexperience and the high wind, we came very close to turning over that 27 foot Santana racing sailboat (which was supposed to be impossible.) We somehow got back to shore, and as we were driving home to Amariilo, we heard a weather report "There are strong winds and a possible tornado has been sighted over Lake Meredith." All Jim and I could do was look at each other.

If the winds of life are strong enough ("when sorrows like sea billows roll" to quote the old hymn.)there is no place that feels safe and secure. The waves are high, the waters dangerous, the boat is tossed on the waves like a brittle leaf ready to shatter- yet when we find the one (or he finds us-remember that Jesus is walking towards the boat) who can comfort us in the storms of life, we cry, Truly, you are the Son of God.

In the boat, upon the waves, on land, on sea- Jesus is with us- Thanks be to God

Revgilmer in Texarkana

P.s. to Auggie- if you can get of a copy of Pulpit Resource, William Willimon has some thoughts on why Peter wanted to walk on the water, along the lines of "I'm special"


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 08:29:42

Comments

When I was in high school, my best friend asked me to go sailing with him. His family had just bought a 27 foot Santana sailboat,berthed on Lake Meredith in the Panhandle of Texas (obviously a man-made lake). Meredith is shaped like a shoestring- long and narrow-and also deep- a canyon thtat invites strong winds.So Jim and I set out early one afternoon. Jim started using all these nautical terms, which, I, who had grown up on the plains of Northwest Texas, had never heard. Still, we managed to get the boat out on the lake, but the wind was very strong. The sailboat had several thousand pounds of ballast (at least that's what Jim said) to keep it upright. But the wind was strong, and as we tacked (turned) the boat into the wind, I thought to ask Jim, "So, how many times have you been sailing?" He replied, "Oh, this is only my second time!" (Jim spoke with a North Carolina drawl which mushed the words together. Still, I understood him perfectly-unfortunately)

So, we two rookies struggled (and when the wind is high and against you- the boat does not feel safe at all!)With our inexperience and the high wind, we came very close to turning over that 27 foot Santana racing sailboat (which was supposed to be impossible.) We somehow got back to shore, and as we were driving home to Amariilo, we heard a weather report "There are strong winds and a possible tornado has been sighted over Lake Meredith." All Jim and I could do was look at each other.

If the winds of life are strong enough ("when sorrows like sea billows roll" to quote the old hymn.)there is no place that feels safe and secure. The waves are high, the waters dangerous, the boat is tossed on the waves like a brittle leaf ready to shatter- yet when we find the one (or he finds us-remember that Jesus is walking towards the boat) who can comfort us in the storms of life, we cry, Truly, you are the Son of God.

In the boat, upon the waves, on land, on sea- Jesus is with us- Thanks be to God

Revgilmer in Texarkana

P.s. to Auggie- if you can get of a copy of Pulpit Resource, William Willimon has some thoughts on why Peter wanted to walk on the water, along the lines of "I'm special"


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 08:30:13

Comments

PL in California et al,

I know the heartbreak and the immense need for pastoral care in a situation like this - I was called one night to do the same thing under very similar circumstances. The baptismal service transformed into an anointing of the dead and service of resurrection all in one. A proclamation of Jesus' life in us and the world in the midst of grief and sorrow.

As for the scripture at hand, let me offer another perspective: There are some scholars who link this scripture with the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus in John 21, not so much to explain what was seen and recorded, but to justify Peter's leadership in the early church. If you read through the sections in Acts where Peter is enjoined to take the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10.1-11.18)the immediate response of the Church in Jerusalem is less than enthusiastic. Peter has to explain his actions to James and the other leaders. Even if the ultimate response of the Jerusalem congregation is one of praise to God, I get the sense that they definitely thought Peter was acting way out of line.

I think one of the reasons for this not just the ingrained fear of the Jewish Church for anything Gentile, but also the history of Peter's denial of Jesus during his trial. Stuff like that just does not get swept under the carpet. This action would be on the same level of treachery as Judas's betrayal, and would loom large in the minds of those who would try to find a reason not to have Peter be the rock on which the church would be built.

This would make the story a sermon on the church in the midst of chaotic choices (Do we remain Jewish or do we go to the Gentiles? How do we respond to hostility from those of our family in faith? from a government which suspects us of treason and atheism?) It is also a story of a remarkable restoration on par with the three-fold "Do you love me?" in John. Peter's walk out of the boat is a paradox - is it a response to Jesus' invitation or an abandonment of his seamates? Did (as one of you pointed out) Jesus set Peter up to sink?

Peter has a monkey on his back called foot in mouth disease - a strange combination of reckless bravery and equally reckless cowardice. Who in God's name would want a leader like that? And what right does anyone have to leadership in the church who denies Jesus to save his own skin?

In both cases, a church in turmoil over its mission and its leadership, the story proclaims that the presence of Jesus brings peace in the midst of the storm and restoration and forgiveness to its very human leaders. After all, Jesus walks with Peter on the water back to the boat.

Some thoughts during my midweek ramble...

Blessings,

RevEd in Ontario


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 08:32:10

Comments

PL in California et al,

I know the heartbreak and the immense need for pastoral care in a situation like this - I was called one night to do the same thing under very similar circumstances. The baptismal service transformed into an anointing of the dead and service of resurrection all in one. A proclamation of Jesus' life in us and the world in the midst of grief and sorrow.

As for the scripture at hand, let me offer another perspective: There are some scholars who link this scripture with the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus in John 21, not so much to explain what was seen and recorded, but to justify Peter's leadership in the early church. If you read through the sections in Acts where Peter is enjoined to take the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10.1-11.18)the immediate response of the Church in Jerusalem is less than enthusiastic. Peter has to explain his actions to James and the other leaders. Even if the ultimate response of the Jerusalem congregation is one of praise to God, I get the sense that they definitely thought Peter was acting way out of line.

I think one of the reasons for this not just the ingrained fear of the Jewish Church for anything Gentile, but also the history of Peter's denial of Jesus during his trial. Stuff like that just does not get swept under the carpet. This action would be on the same level of treachery as Judas's betrayal, and would loom large in the minds of those who would try to find a reason not to have Peter be the rock on which the church would be built.

This would make the story a sermon on the church in the midst of chaotic choices (Do we remain Jewish or do we go to the Gentiles? How do we respond to hostility from those of our family in faith? from a government which suspects us of treason and atheism?) It is also a story of a remarkable restoration on par with the three-fold "Do you love me?" in John. Peter's walk out of the boat is a paradox - is it a response to Jesus' invitation or an abandonment of his seamates? Did (as one of you pointed out) Jesus set Peter up to sink?

Peter has a monkey on his back called foot in mouth disease - a strange combination of reckless bravery and equally reckless cowardice. Who in God's name would want a leader like that? And what right does anyone have to leadership in the church who denies Jesus to save his own skin?

In both cases, a church in turmoil over its mission and its leadership, the story proclaims that the presence of Jesus brings peace in the midst of the storm and restoration and forgiveness to its very human leaders. After all, Jesus walks with Peter on the water back to the boat.

Some thoughts during my midweek ramble...

Blessings,

RevEd in Ontario


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 09:54:34

Comments

One thing I'm missing in this discussion...and I've wondered about it for some time.

Often we state (or assume) that Jesus told Peter to get out of the boat...and that it was a sign of faith for him to do so...take a risk of faith!!

However, I'm not sure the text supports this. After all, it was Peter who said to Jesus "If that be you, tell me to come out!!" All we read of Jesus responce is "come...or...whatever"!!

When Jesus reaches out his hand to Peter and speaks of his little faith...perhaps it is his little faith to not Stay-in-the-boat for Jesus surely would come and take care of him and save him and the others!!!

How about those in ministries where the storms of life continue to hammer them...like Jeremiah...and we cry, "Jesus, get me out of this boat!!"

Maybe Jesus is saying...have faith...I've called you to this ministry...stay in the boat. I'm with you and I will calm the waters.

Wednesday thoughts!!!

DpinDl


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 10:06:58

Comments

A member came up to me just before service Sunday expressing that he was having trouble with doubt. I gathered it was the science vs faith view of creation. We are to meet later this week. It did cause me to pay special attention to the words of Jesus, "Why Do You Doubt". Why do we doubt? jrbnrnc


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 10:15:21

Comments

This is not one appropriate for church but I thought it DOES provide a little levity to the discussion...

The SCENE...

A camp with Sr. High Youth...

The TEXT...

This one from Matthew regarding faith in Christ and Peter's stepping out of the boat...

The PASTOR...

A friend of mine... commented that Jesus took Peter by the hand and Jesus got into the boat with a "soggy Peter"...

The ROOM...

Erupted... especially the adult counselors and most of the youth...

THEN...

A young woman down front finally was enlightened to the humor of it all... Jesus got into the boat with a soggy Peter...

Too funny...

DON'T USE THIS ON SUNDAY...

just a warning, unless you'd like to move to ND!

With grins,

Pulpitt in ND

http://www.faithumcfargo.com/pulpitt.htm


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 10:29:41

Comments

Hello All,

I appreciated the discussion last week, although I didn't end up preaching afterall... my lay person... SPR Chair did... I forwarded the discussion to him from camp and he used much of what YOU said in his "sermon". He received many fine comments and I wanted you all to know how thankful I am for your contributions, week in and week out... I think WE ALL preach better having shared this time together.

Blessings and thanks,

pulpitt in ND


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 10:39:39

Comments

"Why do we doubt? jrbnrnc"

This reminds of the theologian who was asked, "Do you believe in free will?" He replied, "Of course I believe in free will! I have to! I have no choice in the matter."

Why do we doubt? Because God made us that way! We're hardwired for it.

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 10:44:59

Comments

to jrbnrnc: just remember that if all faith is based on truth than all doubt is error. doubt is an essential element to faith, it was for Thomas and it was for the disciples in the boat. If they had not stayed in their doubts they wouldn't have seen the storm stilled. Their faith would not have been confirmed by their experience, just some ramblings from Canada, mark


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 10:46:55

Comments

I've been sitting on the front porch of this great gathering of minds & hearts, listening, benefitting for quite a while. Guess it's time to say THANKS! and hope I can join in and contribute now and then.

Thank you for the two water stories discussions... two watery graves for the old self...of a baby leading outsider parents (If it is you Lord, bid/command me to come to you) and of the inner circle member, Peter. "Come."

In the next chapter (MT.15) we hear Jesus say with a manor of astonishment in his voice, "Woman, how great is your faith!" The Canaanite female whom the disciples wanted to send away (like last week's lesson with the hungry crowd) because she was a great nuisance and noisy pest, the outsider is praised for having what the insiders didn't...she would not sink in her mission to reach Jesus for the sake of her daughter. Her life as a mother with a child so ill is not unlike the boat being beaten by the waves (Lit: tortured-basanizomenon). With Matthew's mission to gather Jew and Gentile into the fullness of God, he seems to collect stories where both insiders and outsiders take turns being faithful and/or clueless.

Re: Chaos. My currently FAVORITE book is Leadership and the New Science (Second Edition) written by Margaret Wheatley. She replaces the "Newtonian machine" metaphor as applied to life and organizational systems with a metaphor borrowed from the new sciences. She speaks of chaos, deep order, fractals, intersections, relationships, strange attractors. I don't get most of what she is explaining, but something of my life experience says her descriptions make sense! Here's a quote that probably will seem like gobbletygook outside of the rest of the book, "Chaos has always partnered with order--a concept that contradicts our common definition of chaos--but until we could see it with computers, we saw only turbulence, energy without predictable form. Chaos is the last state before a system plunges into random behavior where no order exists. Not all systems move into chaos, but if a system becomes unstable, it will move first into a period of oscillation, swinging back and forth between two different states. After this oscillating stage, the next state is chaos, and it is then that the wild gyrations begin. However, in the realm of chaos, where everything should fall apart, the strange attractor emerges, and we observe order, not chaos." (p.117)

There is, as Eric in KS notes, the high contrast between the calm presence of Christ, finally, having had time to get grounded, centered, connected with his Father after news of the violence of John's beheading. I imagine Jesus desperately needed to be reminded that in the face of brutal and senseless use of human power, God was still God of life. Where Jesus would put his eyes--on his Father or on Herod--would be parallel to where Peter (the disciples, the early church communities) and the Canaanite woman would put their eyes. Where they would fix their gaze would determine the experience, meaning and outcome of their moments.

So, "take heart." Aslanclan


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 13:23:19

Comments

I am not sure if this reflection is when do we doubt or why do we doubt? We are caught up in ambition like disciples who had to be made to leave the crowd who wanted to make Jesus a king. We are caught up in activity like getting our boat across a contrary lake while Jesus takes time to be alone with God. We are caught up in storms of distress, that come on us all, even those following the commands of Christ. We are caught up in fear sometimes real waves and sometimes imagined ghosts. We are caught up in our own glory, as we focus on our feat rather than our following. We are caught up in the chaos rather than in the Christ. We are caught up in our inconsistency rather than reaching out for the hand of grace. Thanks aslanclan (great name) for the contribution. I am sure that I could not understand Wheatly but I plugged into the word oscillation as in inconsistency in faith that we are so often made to think is going to turn into eternal chaos only to find that there is a strange attractor there to bring order. Getting too deep from my own self and certainly for my congregation. I do think that we often place too much importance on our own doubt. jrbnrnc


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 13:50:11

Comments

I could use some help. Two weeks ago, using the parable of the wheat and the weeds, I preached a sermon on the question of suffering, why God allows it, etc., and reminded the folks that God is with us in the midst of our suffering, etc. The problem is this: in my humble opinion, to come back two weeks later and preach about Peter taking his eyes off Jesus and connecting that to how we sometimes respond when the problems in life start to get overwhelming seems a bit redundant to me. I know - redundancy can be good sometimes, but 2 out of 3 weeks? I think it might be too early to come back with a similar overall theme. Any ideas out there?

Dennis in CA


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 15:08:16

Comments

Dennis in CA

preach on the 1 kings lesson where God is heard in shear silence...


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 15:11:21

Comments

I disagree with the suggestion that telling people to get out of the boat is telling them to test Jesus... at least, not in the way that the devil tempted Jesus to test God by jumping.

At the most, Peter appears to be testing Jesus in the same way we should test any spirit. And I don't think he's even doing that... I think he's literally stepping out in faith.


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 16:47:36

Comments

PL in CA

Your dilemma regarding the baptism of this child whose life might be very short has contributed much to the discussion of the Matthean text.

First of all, I agree with so many who proclaim, "Baptize!" Indeed God's gift of grace is unmerited love and to pronounce this child a member of God's family demonstrates that God's love supercedes any doctrine or dogma we have.

Secondly, while I do not see the "walking on water" text as a strong candidate for a sermon on baptism, the text does lead us to consider living outside the box. Peter asked Jesus to "Command me to come to you on the water." Jesus' response sounded less like a command than an invitation, "Come."

If Peter is willing to step outside the boat, a refuge in the chaos of the storm--or at least the best refuge available at the moment, then he is beginning to live "outside the box." It is a step of faith, or might it be the Kierkegaardian leap of faith, that Peter takes. It is scary; it is ambitious; and it is risky. Everything Peter knew about walking on water was put to the test.

Jesus, I think, invites us to live outside the comfort of our theological and social boxes. When we are assailed with the storms of life, if we are willing to step outside our box, then something great might happen. Yes, Peter did begin to sink in the water, but he responded to Jesus' reaching out to him.

It's o.k. for us as Christians to live outside the box. Jesus is there also. He reaches out to us when the chaos all around causes us to sink.

PL when you baptize that child, you are living outside the box---and that requires faith.

New Mexico Preacher


Date: 07 Aug 2002
Time: 19:31:16

Comments

Some wonderful thoughts. I may preach on the fact that you are not wrong either way. There are times when we should stay in the boat and ride out the storm and wait for Christ to calm the sea. There are other times when we need to step out of the boat, be a little bold in our faith. i do not know if Jesus was testing Peter or vise versa and it is not something I'll probably dwell on this week.

Phil in Montana


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 04:46:17

Comments

I just want to put in a second vote the text aslanclan mentions. Margaret Wheatley's Management and the New Science is a super book -- rather dense reading (you may need to read each page a couple of times - I did), but well worth the effort. Chaos will never be the same for you after you read it.

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 05:25:35

Comments

Some good stuff as usual.

Been having a hard time of late, dealing with some heavy issues.

It appears to me that the waters of baptism are not always smooth and calm. My baptismal journey contains periods of severe turmoil. Yet Christians are the people who have been given a glimpse of the one who rose above the turmoils of life, who went beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable.

I do not believe baptism to simply be just an event. I believe it to be also a lifelong process of change and challenge.

In this Christ continues to call us to "come". Come closer to him, closer to the person we can be, in the image of God. Peter was called, PL was called, we are all called to constantly face the challenges of ministry and relationship in life.

Did this event really happen, or is it purely metaphor and speculation? Perhaps we will never really ever know, but its message is clear. We have the means to rise above the normal laws of humanity and nature. We are the people of compassion and sacrifice. The boat is security, and yet as some have correctly pointed out, the boat itself is just as insecure. Us humans hold onto so many securities/doctrines/beliefs in the vain belief that they will provide us with protection. Jesus calls us out of that security into the frightening existence of intimacy with others. SCARY!

Now don't tell me, that you find intimacy easy. As Nail-bender so pertinently hit the nail on the head. How many of us have experienced the dread of facing a ministry situation, for which our theology and knowledge and regular skills, are totally and utterly inadequate.

When we come into people's lives at such intimate times and provide them with hope, we walk on water. With God's gracious help, we are the one's who draw them from the waters and lift them up again.

Truly Christ is the Son of God, because he enables us to achieve this.

Thanks for your tolerance of the ramblings of a frightened sailor.

On a personal note, can I seek your prayers for a person being possessed by another. Over 2 years now.

Regards to all for a great week. KGB


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 05:44:45

Comments

Aslanclan, Thank you so much for the Wheatley quote. It makes perfect sense to the Pastor of a declining church whose members refuse to leave the comfort of their 1950's style "program for us" ministry. As I continue to press for change, I fully expect oscillation followed, hopefully, by chaos. Then the strange attractor, Jesus, can hopefully do His work among us. I'm glad you stopped by. PastorRick in Fl


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 08:04:30

Comments

I've appreciated all the thoughtfulness about this passage that has been shared. As I've been thinking and praying about the passage, something stands out for me. It's the concept of successful failure. An oxymoron? Maybe. Maybe not. Peter wavered in his focus and fell. Who among us hasn't been in the same situation? As we get to know the Lord, we do undergo a change for the better. Our desires change more toward that of the Lord's. But inevitably, we have times where we waver and fall. The question that seems to be so aptly addressed in this passage is "How do we get up when we fall down?"

Notice when slipping beneath the waves, Peter didn't rely on his own swimming skills. He didn't resolve to "try harder." His instant reaction was to call out to Jesus. Immediately Jesus' hand grasped him and pulled Peter to safety.

So many times when we fall, we think we can right ourselves on our own. We can try harder. We can do better. However, the reality is that there's only one way to not only be restored, but grow beyond where we've been: By putting ourselves totally at Jesus' mercy. Relying completely on His outstretched hand and His ability to bring us up out of failure.

I believe it is Bob Carlisle who has the song that says, "Saints are only sinners who fall down... and get up."

What for Peter started out as a great opportunity turned into a great failure. But the story doesn't end there. He turned to Jesus and Jesus rescued him. It ended with great success because Peter was more firmly convinced than ever of his utter need for Jesus.

I pray that this might give some food for thought for other preachers.

EB in Kentucky


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 08:56:56

Comments

One more for Baptize the Baby.

SunCityRev


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 09:17:09

Comments

As I have pondered this passage, I have thought about the community. So often when we are frightened or broken or overwhelmed we leave the boat, try to accomplish things on our own. We don't like to be messy in the midst of a "public" community. I think it is leaving the boat that is the mistake. I don't know. I'm not against taking risks, but I am for discovering and welcoming Christ into the community or the boat if you will. It is in community that Christ is most beautifully and magnificiently manifest. So perhaps, this story is talking about he importance of the community. When we leave the boat in fright and arrogance (as opposed to risking something for the good of the community) we often end up with a nose full of water. Any thoughts? Angelic Residue- OR


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 09:20:51

Comments

I see a classic three point sermon in this passage-

Life is a stormy chaos filled with fear, suffering and pain. Think of all the snares and traps a child must learn to negotiate as they grow up. Think of the wreckage scattered throughout the living of even the most 'normal' of lives. We live in the midst of a storm.

To answer this, we humans create ships to navigate the storm- communities, groups, and churches filled with like minded people. We do our best, sail our courses, fight the good fight and try to stay afloat. In the end, even the strong walls of a church or the most carefully crafted theology won't save us when the winds really blow. Witness the suffering of our Catholic neighbors or the petty fighting that threatens the Methodist Church... we try but, being human, we will fall short.

Our only hope comes from a faith in Christ- a true faith focused on compassion, love and hope. It is impossible to discribe (as impossible as explaining how Jesus walks on water) and exists in that unknowable faith Christ held, that saints praised and that we all, deep down, know we need... but it is true, solid and real.

We walk on water when we learn to focus on the Truth...

TB in MN

PS Has anyone thought of the humor of Peter, the rock, walking on water. Rocks sink.


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 09:21:42

Comments

To add to my thought... I'm not suggesting that the community never change or risk or be transformed. I think that transformation should take place, through struggle, as a community. A pastor cannot set an agenda and force the community to conform. The pastor, as a leader called on by God, facilitates the reality of the community's mission and vision, yes?


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 09:22:53

Comments

Sorry, it's me Angelic Residue...I forgot to sign the last one.


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 10:01:55

Comments

For the lazy days of summer, this has already been a stimulating discussion!

EB in Kentucky-I like paradox and am chewing on the "successful failure."

Pastor Rick in Fl Please pick up a copy of Leadership and the New Science by Wheatley. I find so much of my theology gets described there, tho' that is not Wheatley's intent. A couple of years ago I was on sabbatical and got an e-mail message from one of the council members saying that a letter of complaint about my leadership had come to the Council's attention; the writer assured me they weren't going to chase me out...Thankfully, I was reading Wheatley for the first time and had a confident sense that this little letter was going to cause some turbulence, but, it was going to get the lay leadership out of their passivity and ultimately bring a good outcome. Normally I would have gotten into a major panic...(something of the mode Dp in Dl described: Get me outta this boat, NOW! And seeing ghosts and scary things everywhere!) The letter did jumpstart some lay leaders and programs, I'm still pastor in the congregation without any particular consequence. I am convinced it was because the new metaphors led me to a deeper trust I could let go of my old modes of (mis)managing things. So, to stimulate your thinking and possibly refresh your approach to a congregation approaching rigor mortis, I highly recommend.

It seems the boat in this account is a means of transition which the students of Jesus were compelled to get into in order to go to 'the other side.'

Marion Wright Edelmen, in one of her prayer books quoted this, "dear God, the sea is so great and my boat is so small."

PL in California, your question obviously is touching us all at a pretty core place. I hope you'll be able to baptize at the main service on a Sundy. I hope the family will let you tell the truth of their child and their instinct to have the child baptized tho' they are not yet ready to make a creedal confession. The suggestion of asking a member of the congregation to be a sponsor is good. The family is going to need a great deal of love and support, jellos and casseroles and listening hearts to get through the dying days ahead. I hope the parents will let themselves be loved and prayed for--no other strings attached except that they will be willing to make a commitment for 6 months to come to worship. One other note, I found my intellect argued with the creeds for eons...but when I read Marc Borg's suggestion that we might accurately switch "I give my heart to" for "I believe" there was suddenly room for me to say the words with some freedom.

So, 'take heart.' Aslanclan


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 10:32:41

Comments

When I read this text earlier in the week, it made me focus and watch the t.v. game show, fear factor. i thouht of that as one to hok this sermon around. Notice how many times the word fear is used. Gen


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 11:25:04

Comments

Aslanclan wrote: Marion Wright Edelmen, in one of her prayer books quoted this, "Dear God, the sea is so great and my boat is so small."

Adm. Hyman Rickover gave a plaque with this prayer on it to the captain of every newly commissioned nuclear submarine while he was in charge of the sub. program.

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 12:12:06

Comments

How much trust do you really have in God?

A New Pastor from the Jersey Shore...


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 12:29:48

Comments

I suppose if we really trusted in God we would make the attempt at loving one another. We would put other person's needs ahead of our own. We might even make terrific sacrifices for strangers. Isn't that what God wants us to do? And for us to have faith that in doing so we shall find life, and find it more abundantly. But who can make themselves so vulnerable?

I've just come home from a pastoral care visit. As I listened to the woman speak for over an hour, I finally told her that what I heard was a woman who has been hurt. She lives with the addage "trust no one". Because she has been hurt by family, friends, and strangers she has put up a wall. Trust has been long removed from her heart.

Is it so strange to hear that Peter was afraid to step out of the boat? I know I wouldn't have done so. How many people do we meet in our everyday lives that promise the world, and never deliver? Who can we trust in this world?

Without sounding like a glorified cynic we must agree that contemporary wisdom suggests that we keep our guards up against all kinds of people; terrorists, politicians, CEO's, and even priests. Who can be trusted?

I suppose the answer is God. God can be trusted, but will the congregation trust the preacher? Will the preachers words be heard?

ramble in rumbleville, OK


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 14:31:43

Comments

PL in California, Have you read "By Water and the Spirit?" Good resource on baptism. As a UM, I agree with the person who questioned who the baptism is for? Recently I had a mother and two daughters who very much wanted to be baptized. They are not churched people. The question to ask, for me anyway, is will there be more harm done to the Body of Christ if I do not baptize them. As one who posted on this site stated, they must have some sense of baptism. Is the possibly the beginning of the Spirit nudging in their hearts? Is this a door partially opened that will allow for ministry down the road? lp in CO


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 18:44:42

Comments

To PL in California -- my prayers are with you. You have received more good advice than you probably know what to do with, but I still find myself compelled to add my contribution.

I am a lay preacher (preaching this Sunday -- an hour ago I knew what I was preaching, but now I'm not sure) and an elder in the PCUSA, where we baptize the children of members. The Presbytery, in testing both the polity and the pastoral technique of those about to be ordained as clergy, often poses hypothetical dilemmas about grandparents wanting the children of their own non-believing adult children baptized.

I take baptism seriuosly, and I am generally viewed as pretty insistent on the Book of Order (the PCUSA constitution). And I sometimes get annoyed with people who use the "sin boldly" quotation referenced in anotehr poster as what appears to me to be an excuse for sloppy discernment.

But I don't think your dilemma is far from the Gospel lesson at all. I believe that you have been called by your Lord to "get out of the boat" -- baptize the child. Change the liturgy, use a sponsor, or do whatever you need to, but place the water on the child's head confident in the conviction that you are expressing the grace of God to the child's parents in a way that neither your polity nor mine ever can.

It's not about staying in the boat or getting out of the boat -- it's about answering the call of Christ. Or as the t-shirts and bumper stickers would have it -- WWJD? Or as a Christian hit of a few years ago would have put it "Will they see God for who he really is in what they see in me and you?"


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 19:40:55

Comments

To PL, I too would baptize the child. At 7 she/he is old enough to make their own confession of faith. The sacramental grace in baptism is for the child, the prayers are that the Holy Spirit will lead the child to faith. The parents' questions are designed to encourage them, with the assistance of the faith community where this occus, to assist in that process. In the Uniting Church in Australia the creed is used as answers to questions put to the whole congregation - not just the parents. The Creed is a statement of faith. Not knowing your traditions, but maybe the parents could agree on some other statement of faith, however simple. May God bless you in this matter and may God be with the family and may they know Giod's presence and peace. Neil. OZ


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 19:41:21

Comments

To PL, I too would baptize the child. At 7 she/he is old enough to make their own confession of faith. The sacramental grace in baptism is for the child, the prayers are that the Holy Spirit will lead the child to faith. The parents' questions are designed to encourage them, with the assistance of the faith community where this occus, to assist in that process. In the Uniting Church in Australia the creed is used as answers to questions put to the whole congregation - not just the parents. The Creed is a statement of faith. Not knowing your traditions, but maybe the parents could agree on some other statement of faith, however simple. May God bless you in this matter and may God be with the family and may they know Giod's presence and peace. Neil. OZ


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 19:41:51

Comments

Ok PL, I'm curious and can't help but ask--- what did you decide after all the advise?

Avis in KY


Date: 08 Aug 2002
Time: 20:15:46

Comments

Peter wouldn't cry out "Lord, save me!" if he didn't think that Jesus could or would. My point is that Peter isn't the "straw man" with little faith - he believes Jesus will do something; he believes he can. Re: "sin boldly" - I agree, it could sound like sloppy discernment, but I think that it is because we never quote the second part: "and trust in God's grace even more boldly" LKB in SK


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 05:46:54

Comments

G'day there fellow preachers I always concentrate on the importance of keeping our eyes on Jesus - good one for us clergy ! Who is this Mike and LKB in SK ? I am in the Diocese of Grafton in Australia the "link" Diocese with the Anglican Diocese of SK ! bye the way - Baptise the baby - the parents obviously want to hand the child over to God to care for it ! Koala George in Oz


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 06:37:18

Comments

reply to Eric, I have read your posts with great enthusiasm for some time. I have never posted but your thoughts about the time to care for ones self. I just came from a week that was to recharge me, I was going to a clown camp in MN. however one of the congregation passed on and I ended up with a funeral on Mon. not enough my wife was in the hospital unto Tue. the message was Jesus feeding the five thousand and all I could get was leave me alone for awhile so I can get through this time of emotional drain. Peter is my favorite disciple because of his brash and unpredicted actions (much like myself). I can see both sides of the debate as the need for Jesus to recharge and also Peter's amazement and like himself he jumps out of the boat to get to Jesus. Don't know what to do yet but still trying to get somewhere. Have a nursing home service this am. WaynO in NE


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 07:06:11

Comments

In his devotional, Grace For the Moment, Max Lucado refers to this passage for today's devotion. He writes, "After the storm, the disciples worshiped him. They had never, as a group done that before. Never. Check it out. Open your Bible. Search for a time when the disciples corporately praised him. You won't find it. You won't find them worshiping when he heals the leper. Forgives the adulteress. Preaches to the masses. They were willing to follow. Willing to leave family. Willing to cast out demons. Willing to be in the army. But only after the incident on the sea did they worship him. Why? Simple. This time they were the ones who were saved." I like that. Thanks for some great stuff! I depend on this each week! God bless... PM in PA


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 08:07:05

Comments

To all, First, baptize the baby. All the reasons are above.

Second, as someone coming back to the ministry after 25 years in business, I am impressed by the range of thoughtfulness and ideas I find in these discussions.

Third, I am working on playing the Genesis and Matthew texts off against each other. I thought I had something, but this forum has opened up a range of new possibilities. The concept of chaos is also very helpful. Glad for the book recommendation. Thanks for the guidance and reflections.

I am looking forward to checking back and contributing something more substantial.Dave the Supplier


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 08:53:41

Comments

Good morning from the West-- Eric from Ks ...thanks for the connection of the 'sea is so great...' saying to the admiral & submarine captains.

PM in PA Thanks for the Lucado quote. When I have experienced in my core beliefs(my gut/my heart) the power of forgiveness or being saved, I am changed. I praise & worship. I think that depth of an experience has come to me perhaps twice, but it certainly informs my teaching, preaching, and living. The boat trauma was very vivid. The disciples had no illusions left of being in control.

WaynO in NE-It's not hard to imagaine your aching disappointment and now emotional exhaustion. Going to a clown workshop is a big clue that you might be a person who is nurtured in tribes of play and delight. Not as easy to find that around work (home).

Re: baptism. I routinely point out to folks who want (not in trauma or nearness of death settings) their babies baptized but don't plan on being part of the community that we don't view baptism as "Fire Insurance but Vital Relationship lived in Community!" By the way, what do you see as the difference between superstition and faith? In this week's Gospel (It is a Ghost!? No, It's Jesus...walking on water!?)

Aslanclan


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 09:34:48

Comments

Just discovered this page. I was suddenly called on this morning to take the Sunday service at a small parish that I've had a long time association with. So, I was scrambling for the lectionary passages and thoughts on the Gospel passage especially.

Desperate preacher is the right place to be.

Am in total agreement with the baptize crowd. As a sometime cowboy poet I am caught by the instance of contact and the old phrase, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth." God got them into the corral, now it's up to we horse whisperers to "Come" and get out of the boat. Baptize with love. God brought them this close to the dance.

I know some folks say that it's more complicated than that. But I'm mighty proud to see this group of Christians generally doesn't agree with that approach.

I have recently given much thought to such concerns. In a book by Terry Pratchett (whimsical books about the mythical DiscWorld--but thought provoking)a discussion between two people goes something like this:

1st Person: So, does your faith believe in burning witches and other people who disagree with you?

2nd Person: It's a lot more complicated than that.

1st Person: No. It isn't.

I've found that when people say that it's because they don't like the real answer and are looking for a way around it.

(My apologies to Mr. Pratchett for my lousy recall)

The point for me in all this is that we need to keep our hearts and thoughts firmly on the ball, more specifically on Jesus.

They didn't get in the boat to get away. Jesus sent them. They responded to what He told them to do. After praying Jesus saw their problem. He came to them as He does to us all.

They saw something unexplained and feared the worse. But, he spoke to them and they feared no more or, at least, less.

Peter needed more, he starts out with "If....." and set up a test. Jesus said "Come" (appropriate response for the test of God Peter set up).

Peter started strong, but like Wily Coyote and all cartoon pursuers, when he took his eye off the ball a bad case of perceived reality set in and, as someone pointed out, he sank like his namesake.

Unlike the cartoon characters he didn't go all the way to the bottom. Jesus pulled him to safety.

I can see Jesus, somewhat bemused, saying, You of little faith, why did you doubt? But, it wasn't a rhetorical question-just a question. He wanted to know.

It's an important question. Too bad we don't get the answer. I suspect it's one of our favorites.

I don't know.

We don't know.

We just get back up, dust ourselves off, refocus on Jesus, tell Him we're sorry, we'll try to do better, and start out again---forgiven.

It is our life cycle of faith. To believe. To falter. To seek forgiveness and be forgiven. To believe, etc. Hopefully the belief is a little stronger, lasts a little longer and carries us a little higher as we are continually loved, strengthened and forgiven.

I don't know whether this is of any value. But I have always felt that if you're given a gift (like this site at this time) you ought to give thanks.

My thoughts are the best I can do in the thanks department.

Kansas Jim in KS


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 10:28:56

Comments

Baptize the child for ALMOST all of the reasons above.


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 12:11:46

Comments

Kansas Jim in KS,

Your offering of thanks is an offering of wisdom. I appreciate your sharing this week -- it has helped me immensely today.

SueCan ps. PL, baptize the baby :)


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 12:58:17

Comments

To the poster who views my reference to Luther's statement to "...sin bodly," as "sloppy discernment", you must of missed the reasons stated prior to my quotation, feel free to scroll back up and read them for your enrichment.

As I look at Jesus ministry viewed through the prevailing rabbinical though in his day, it appears there are times where Jesus engaged in "sloppy discernment" i.e. next week's text where he takes more than crumbs and gives them to the "dogs".

Remember that the gentiles are the ones referenced as dogs. I thank God for Jesus' "sloppy discernment".

Pr.del in Ia


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 13:20:47

Comments

Kansas Jim in KS, Thanks for you contribution. I espcially like the faith cyle. I would make one adjustment to it. Get up, DRY YOURSELF OFF, and start again. Thanks for some good thoughts. Blessings and hope to see you on this site more frequently. lp in CO


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 18:35:19

Comments

PL, California

Thank you for presenting you seemly unrelated dilemma to the forum. I can't help but think that you are asking Jesus to call you out of the boat. Most of what we do as a church is totally unrelated to the ministry of Christ. We make up our own little rules and come to believe that we should remain securely in that boat of rules. Thinks about the woman who washed Jesus feet with her tears and how the religious leaders did not approve. I think it is time for you to say, "Jesus if that is you call me to come out there and walk on water with you." Are you ready? Are we ready to get out of our boats and be the church? I am sickened by the division of the church and our need to be right over our call to in ministry. Let us open our hearts to God and begin to measure everything in the context of, "Is that you Jesus?" Not does it follow the Book of Discipline. PL, I'm not sure what Jesus will answer you, but I pray that you will take the time to ask, "Is that you Lord?" I am almost certian He will answer, "Yes, come on out the water is fine." BT, IND


Date: 09 Aug 2002
Time: 22:13:18

Comments

Pr del in la--How are you after the violence earlier this week in your church parking lot? You have been in my thoughts and prayers. Aslanclan


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 01:38:11

Comments

Yes!!to DpinDL- a kindred spirit. That's what I was thinking about who is really showing faith in this story: Peter or the disciples. Peter makes the same kind of challenge to Jesus that Satan did in the temptations. IF you are the Son of God, change these stones into bread. Christ refused to accomodate Satan and even when feeding the mulititude, he refused to change stones into bread but used what was available.

Peter says Lord, "if it is you, let me do a miraclous thing(remember? Satan said that to Jesus,as well--if you're the Son of God, jump off the temple)and walk on water out to you." What Christ had said to the disciples about 'have no fear, and take heart and it is I' wasn't enough for Peter.

If the disciples didn't have any faith, why didn't Christ rebuke their doubt, as well? A commentator said that the word 'doubt' is used here to speak to believers, perhaps chastizing the early church for their doubt of Christ. Yet, Christ only rebukes Peter.

C'mon-give it a shot, try to think of Peter as the one who was lacking in faith--think outside the boat, er, the box!

AUGGIE


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 04:59:35

Comments

Ok, I don't know how this relates to the above comments, but for the truely desperate this may give an idea.

It’s a matter of positioning

Why did you doubt?

Peter says I can’t believe I’m doing this! And that was the trouble. He, Peter, wasn’t doing it at all. God was walking on the lake through Peter.

Who are we, we mortals, we men and women? It could be that we are nothing more than smart apes. That somewhere along our genetic tree, after millions and millions of generations, one type of animal started being smarter than the others. And somehow developed enough so that language could be used. We probably even know those first words and what motivated them. Those first words probably were when she said, “Hey Big Guy, want to have some fun?”

(It all makes sense. Freud was right in thinking that everything we do is motivated by sex. If our advances in our abilities, our talents, our cleverness, our art and literature, our sciences, even our ethics are basically attributed to the people getting together and producing offspring that are a little different than before, a little better perhaps. No wonder that sex and power and greed would be the center of this world, would be the main motivator used by our ads on TV and magazines! In that world view the best chance for advance is having sex.)

But what if your world view is different? What if you believe that after the whole creation was accomplished, the stars and planets, the dry ground and the seas, the plants and animals in all their variety (How long that took is completely irrelevent!) Something or SomeOne (lets say God, to simplify the concept) chose to create a New Thing, some animal different from the others, some entity capable of participating in the very act of creation, some entity to communicate with, to appreciate the beauty, to take care of (be stewards of) all that was created. Some entity in between God and God’s creation,

“So God created humankind in God’s own image, in the image of God he created humankind, male and female he created them.”

So what does this have to do with Peter? That’s the choice Peter has to make when he takes that first step on the lake.

Overcome by the moment, of seeing Jesus on the waves, of hearing his words, “Come!”, Peter takes his first steps in God’s creation. A creation that Peter was to have care and dominion over at the side of God - with God! And Peter and Jesus walk to each other…

But then, Peter says to himself, “Hey, I’m just a man born from mom and dad. All I am is a smarter animal that eats and drinks and have children just like the other animals. I am my own person. Not connected to anyone or anything. There are the laws of creation that rule me. These were determined at the very moment at the beginning, in the first microseconds of the Big Bang, irrefutable laws that can’t be changed. Nothing can go faster then the speed of light! The density of an object is determined by molecular configurations, its mass, and the relationships between substances is governed by the Law of Displacement and the ratio of mass and volume. That is all there is, that is all I am.

And Peter sinks.

A matter of positioning. Where are we in relation with the world (creation) and God. Off on our own, outside of God’s creation, we can only make our way by what is found in our muscles, our minds, our genes. And we sink.

But if we position ourselves Within God’s Creation, and take on the job appointed us, not to Rule, but to allow God to Rule through us, everything and anything is possible! Walking on a stormy lake? With God walking through us, since God through Jesus has called me out of the boat…

Walking on water? No problem at all.

JLM in Detroit


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 05:06:16

Comments

Last minute thoughts that could be helpful?

It’s a matter of positioning

Why did you doubt?

Peter says I can’t believe I’m doing this! And that was the trouble. He, Peter, wasn’t doing it at all. God was walking on the lake through Peter.

Who are we, we mortals, we men and women? It could be that we are nothing more than smart apes. That somewhere along our genetic tree, after millions and millions of generations, one type of animal started being smarter than the others. And somehow developed enough so that language could be used. We probably even know those first words and what motivated them. Those first words probably were when she said, “Hey Big Guy, want to have some fun?”

(It all makes sense. Freud was right in thinking that everything we do is motivated by sex. If our advances in our abilities, our talents, our cleverness, our art and literature, our sciences, even our ethics are basically attributed to the people getting together and producing offspring that are a little different than before, a little better perhaps. No wonder that sex and power and greed would be the center of this world, would be the main motivator used by our ads on TV and magazines! In that world view the best chance for advance is having sex.)

But what if your world view is different? What if you believe that after the whole creation was accomplished, the stars and planets, the dry ground and the seas, the plants and animals in all their variety (How long that took is completely irrelevent!) Something or SomeOne (lets say God, to simplify the concept) chose to create a New Thing, some animal different from the others, some entity capable of participating in the very act of creation, some entity to communicate with, to appreciate the beauty, to take care of (be stewards of) all that was created. Some entity in between God and God’s creation,

“So God created humankind in God’s own image, in the image of God he created humankind, male and female he created them.”

So what does this have to do with Peter? That’s the choice Peter has to make when he takes that first step on the lake.

Overcome by the moment, of seeing Jesus on the waves, of hearing his words, “Come!”, Peter takes his first steps in God’s creation. A creation that Peter was to have care and dominion over at the side of God - with God! And Peter and Jesus walk to each other…

But then, Peter says to himself, “Hey, I’m just a man born from mom and dad. All I am is a smarter animal that eats and drinks and have children just like the other animals. I am my own person. Not connected to anyone or anything. There are the laws of creation that rule me. These were determined at the very moment at the beginning, in the first microseconds of the Big Bang, irrefutable laws that can’t be changed. Nothing can go faster then the speed of light! The density of an object is determined by molecular configurations, its mass, and the relationships between substances is governed by the Law of Displacement and the ratio of mass and volume. That is all there is, that is all I am.

And Peter sinks.

A matter of positioning. Where are we in relation with the world (creation) and God. Off on our own, outside of God’s creation, we can only make our way by what is found in our muscles, our minds, our genes. And we sink.

But if we position ourselves Within God’s Creation, and take on the job appointed us, not to Rule, but to allow God to Rule through us, everything and anything is possible! Walking on a stormy lake? With God walking through us, since God through Jesus has called me out of the boat…

Walking on water? No problem at all.

JLM in Detroit


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 10:16:05

Comments

Aslanclan

The neighborhood families and elderly are pretty fearful and I have seen less children out this week than the whole summer.

Many of the neighbors I talk to express lots of fear and anxiety, they refuse to be quoted in paper or interviewed on TV for fear of reprisal. I don't think they even are very open with police.

The place where the young man died has become a memorial. I put a wooden cross out there on Tuesday and around the cross there are literally dozens of flowers arrangements and candles- even unsigned notes express the desire for justice.

Our congregation is mostly white and lives out of the immediate neighborhood. The nieghborhood is very diverse and poor.

Our social concerns team is hoosting a cookout on the 23rd to hopefully give the neighbors a chance to come together and state to know one another, we also will (without fanfare) circulate a "neighborhood watch" interest sign up sheet.

I plan to spend the next two weeks going door to door to check in with the neighbors and invite them to cook out. Keep our congregation in your prayers that in some way we can stand with the people and take back the neighborhood with the love and compassion of Christ.

Thank you for asking,

Pr.del in IA


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 10:17:38

Comments

ps. I'm also very open to ieas and suggestions.

Pr.del in IA


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 10:18:14

Comments

ps. I'm also very open to ideas and suggestions

Pr.del in IA


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 12:12:39

Comments

From a newbee. Been reading for some time, today I decided to take the plunge.

I am going a slightly different direction with the text. Title of the Sermon "Nothing Ever Takes the Lord by Surprise." That seems to cover those in the boat, Peter, the storm, the tiredness of the Master, and resolves for me the issues of faith. Keeping the eyes on Jesus is just as important to the understanding of the readers of the text as it was to the participants. Rather than looking at the text as a measure of Peter's faith-or those in the boat for that matter, why not notice the Faithfulness of the One who loves and cares and is there for us at all times in every situation regardless of our level of faith at the moment. To the question of the apparant chiding of Peter, could our Lord have also said,"Who else would meet you on the water and get you out of this mess?" Think I will trace the Lord's actions and see if we can lift the eyes of our hearts off the storms around us and to the watch care of the One who Never Leaves of Forsakes. For what it's worth.

Great site. Appreciate the sharing of hearts and ideas. Ladypreacher in AL


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 13:26:12

Comments

I support baptizing the child too. It's OK that the parents have problems with the rite, with the creed. As I understand the strength of the creedal church, it is that we proclaim the creed together and for one another. An individual may have issues with a phrase, concept or idea at any given time - they may have doubt. As a church we proclaim the faith for one another, we believe for one another during those difficult moments (like upon hearing that your child is dying). Revlunn on Kaua'i


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 13:38:29

Comments

About baptism: My father was a United Methodist, a great believer in the priesthood of all believers, and a doctor. At his funeral, a woman came to me and introduced herself as a delivery room nurse where my father delivered babies. She told me that after delivering each of the more than three thousand babies he delivered, he baptized them! A woman standing next in the reception line began to weep openly and said, "Doc delivered my children. My daughter died when she was just two months old, and I have always worried because she had not been baptized. Now I know she is okay." Baptism as healing. Baptism as comfort.


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 13:47:36

Comments

Thanks for all the reflections!

A question: where does the story say Peter took his eyes off Jesus?

A thought: in infant/child baptism the parents hand their child over to be ritually drowned, acknowledging that they have no power over death, but must trust in the one whose path lead through death to new life.

Another thought: it is worth reflecting on our doubts, rather than rejecting them. Our doubts tell us a lot about our faith.

Finger Lakes Chaplain


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 17:28:18

Comments

Pr del in la I haven't any experience with circumstances that you are now facing. As an outsider, your plan sounds excellent. I am frequently impressed when people can come together...I know that trust requires a track record. People may have an enormous history of reasons to not trust any process or authority, but you have an opening and a prayerful plan. Something salvific might come of it! I've not used the discussion section yet. Perhaps you can update there. Aslanclan


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 17:43:40

Comments

Nail Bender . . . The story you related re: the friend and the decision to baptize the dead baby . . . I have been theree. I sat at bedside with mother, father, auntie and both sets of grandparents for 2 days as she labored to deliver this 15 oz./ 7 1/2 inch long baby boy named Michael. I have NEVER seen God's grace and mercy unfold before my eyes as I did in that hospital room. I saw nurses who wrapped this tiny being in 7-8 layers of blankets so we would be "holding on" to a baby. They, in great compassion, through perhaps not legal, put his time of birth and time of death as ten minutes apart. We all held him. We all cooed and cried and one gramma sang him a Polish lullaby. Then gathered round his mother's bed, we blessed him, thanked God for him, and I baptized him. As a newly ordained pastor, child of a pastor of 40 years, I called by father (friend and mentor) more than once as we waited. "I can't do this." I would tell him. "YOU don't have to," he'd reply, "You'll have what you need when the time comes." (I had three "babies" of my own at home.) Do I wish that this young couple had delivered and brought home a bouncing baby boy? Of course! But I feel profound blessing for having been a part of all this? Without a doubt!

Thanks for sharing the story you did! It made me weep . . . again.

RevMom


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 17:43:56

Comments

Nail Bender . . . The story you related re: the friend and the decision to baptize the dead baby . . . I have been theree. I sat at bedside with mother, father, auntie and both sets of grandparents for 2 days as she labored to deliver this 15 oz./ 7 1/2 inch long baby boy named Michael. I have NEVER seen God's grace and mercy unfold before my eyes as I did in that hospital room. I saw nurses who wrapped this tiny being in 7-8 layers of blankets so we would be "holding on" to a baby. They, in great compassion, through perhaps not legal, put his time of birth and time of death as ten minutes apart. We all held him. We all cooed and cried and one gramma sang him a Polish lullaby. Then gathered round his mother's bed, we blessed him, thanked God for him, and I baptized him. As a newly ordained pastor, child of a pastor of 40 years, I called by father (friend and mentor) more than once as we waited. "I can't do this." I would tell him. "YOU don't have to," he'd reply, "You'll have what you need when the time comes." (I had three "babies" of my own at home.) Do I wish that this young couple had delivered and brought home a bouncing baby boy? Of course! But I feel profound blessing for having been a part of all this? Without a doubt!

Thanks for sharing the story you did! It made me weep . . . again.

RevMom


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 17:44:37

Comments

Nail Bender . . . The story you related re: the friend and the decision to baptize the dead baby . . . I have been theree. I sat at bedside with mother, father, auntie and both sets of grandparents for 2 days as she labored to deliver this 15 oz./ 7 1/2 inch long baby boy named Michael. I have NEVER seen God's grace and mercy unfold before my eyes as I did in that hospital room. I saw nurses who wrapped this tiny being in 7-8 layers of blankets so we would be "holding on" to a baby. They, in great compassion, through perhaps not legal, put his time of birth and time of death as ten minutes apart. We all held him. We all cooed and cried and one gramma sang him a Polish lullaby. Then gathered round his mother's bed, we blessed him, thanked God for him, and I baptized him. As a newly ordained pastor, child of a pastor of 40 years, I called by father (friend and mentor) more than once as we waited. "I can't do this." I would tell him. "YOU don't have to," he'd reply, "You'll have what you need when the time comes." (I had three "babies" of my own at home.) Do I wish that this young couple had delivered and brought home a bouncing baby boy? Of course! But I feel profound blessing for having been a part of all this? Without a doubt!

Thanks for sharing the story you did! It made me weep . . . again.

RevMom


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 18:11:12

Comments

PL California -

Maybe someone else has helped you, but I'd like to bring in my two cents. Could the parents find a God-parent, someone of faith who would agree to pray for the chld? Dedication sounds like words and ceremony, baptism is the presence of God. Isn't their asking for baptism a sign of God's work in them? Oh, baptize!

kbc in sc


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 18:34:55

Comments

Oh, Aslanclan, you have named one of the most riveting books I've encountered recently. Let's hear it for Meg Wheatley and Leadership and the New Science. How did you come across it? It was recommended to me by a monk, and it has revoloutionized my approach to pastoring a church. Ooo, and the pictures! kbc in sc


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 18:49:47

Comments

One more and I'll get back to the OT where I'm camping this summer: In all the rush of pro-baptism sentiment, the one note that jarred me was of the United Methodist doctor who baptized all those babies. While it was a lovely thing for the mother in the story, it becomes more a superstition thing when it is just routinely done, without (where possible) involving the church and the family. One imagines many of those children went on to a (shudder) second baptism in their church. Does this bother anyone but me?

kbc in sc


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 20:52:21

Comments

kbc in sc-From your comments on Wheatley and your theological query re the Methodist Dr. baptizing story, I'd say we share a couple of plots of common ground. If you (or anyone else) would like to share more oohing and ahhing over Wheatley quotes we could go to the discussion page? or email me at Aslanclan@aol.com. So then, 'take heart.' good night. Aslanclan


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 21:20:07

Comments

To PR Del in IA -- sorry that my previous post didn't say it more clearly (and I apologize for accidentally leaving it unsigned). But I didn't quite say (and certainly did not intend to say) that your use of "sin boldly" was sloppy discernment -- I said that I get upset when people use the phrase as an excuse for what I believe was sloppy discernment. Of course, in this case you and I agree about the course that should be taken, so in my normal human arrogance, I can of course do nothing but credit you with extraordinary discernment (for those who may miss the tone of that comment in the printed text -- try reading it with a bit of an ironic smile on your face).

I'm sorry my post was itself somewhat sloppy on that point -- I had to go back to read it after reading your gentle rebuke, and I can see why you thought it was directed at you rather than unnamed others (including a previous pastor of mine who tended to use the quotation whenever someone suggested to him that the course he had taken may not have been the best one).

Every once in a while confusion like this is a worthwhile reminder that the written word is not always as clear as we sometimes believe it is. And you and I, of course, are speaking the same language. Makes me approach exegesis with a bit more humility than I might otherwise exhibit.

MDWElpis in WA


Date: 10 Aug 2002
Time: 21:24:46

Comments

In rereading the posts I saw the reference to Peter the rock, and rocks sinking. I've used a dramatic monologue delivered "by Peter" -- whose sense of humor is somewhat lost in the gospels -- for more than 20 years. In discussing Christ's commission of Peter following his confession, my monologue has Peter declaring (after recalling the story that provides this week's scripture). "And now he was calling me a rock -- I wasn't sure what he meant by that, unless he was suggesting that I swim like one."

MDWElpis in WA


Date: 11 Aug 2002
Time: 04:28:31

Comments

I finished me sermon late last night -- I have focused on those two "bridge verses" between the feeding of the multitude and the walking on water episode -- vv. 22 and 23 (the latter especially). You can find the sermon at http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/proper14-a-rcl-2002.htm

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 11 Aug 2002
Time: 04:30:00

Comments

"I finished me sermon late last night..."

Sheesh! This was not an attempt to type in dialect! "I finished MY sermon ...."

Blessings, Eric+


Date: 11 Aug 2002
Time: 06:06:03

Comments

MDWElpis in WA

Thank you and I apoligize for hastily rebuking when I just should have asked for clarity. It was a rough week.

Pr.del in IA


Date: 2/4/2004
Time: 2:29:22 AM

Comments

if we can remain focused on jesus we can accomplish what ever we set out to accomplish


Date: 8/25/2004
Time: 11:42:34 AM

Comments

In many verses of the Bible!The words caught up,transformed,translated,delivered,meet,changed,gathered etc.

Are used!As you can see,several different words are used for Rapture.

The Rapture is when those who love Jesus go with Jesus Christ to heaven in a Twinkling of an eye,and those left behind will be forced to think weird explanations, like the millions who disappeared went into a ufo etc.

After the Rapture, the world will be in chaos immediately. Some people will be raptured while driving in their cars, causing the cars to crash. Some people will disappear while working the most important jobs in the country, and once they disappear, cities will be destroyed. Planes will crash, electricity will go out, and phone lines will be jammed for days.If you think THIS sounds bad, the Judgements are much worse. Dont Be Left Behind!

The human cycle that experienced Noahs Ark was swept away in the flood,and they all drowned.The chosen inside the Ark were saved from the wrath of God.

This human cycle also has a Ark to rescue us,The name of our Divine Ark is JESUS CHRIST.Now is the time to accept Jesus Christ into your heart,and repent of all sins.

1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery.We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. http://rulestheweb.com/coolwebsites