Date: 27 Jul 2002
Time: 20:47:04
Hello all,
Can't believe I'm the first entry...
I'm away at church camp with 160 Sr. High Youth... this week... I left Sunday after church... although it's Saturday night... July 27, 2002.
so, make sure you all add some really good stuff for my return on Saturday night, August 3! ;?)
Blessings to you all, and thanks for the GREAT stuff in advance...
I title my sermon... "Meeting God Face to Face" so if you could use that as your theme it would help me out greatly!
Just serious, ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Date: 27 Jul 2002
Time: 20:53:59
BTW...
I just added some prayers and hymns for next Sunday's Bulletins...
feel free to check 'em out...
pulpitt in ND
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 11:33:47
Help! Why does John tell us they got the food from a lad, but Luke, Mark and Matthew do not say they got the food from a lad??? Are they the same story or different? Nescient Preacher in IN
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 13:25:02
Could be many reasons...
Either it's a different occasion, or
The synoptic writers didn't know about the boy, or
The synoptic writers didnt' believe the boy was important, or
John added the source for some reason of his own, or
... Well, we don't really know.
Michelle
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 17:15:36
Hi all,
The United Church of Christ offers as an emphasis to this week's New Testament's lectionary: "And they ate and all were filled." My own sermon topic is, "Give Them Something to Eat."
In a world with such a contrast between the haves and the have nots, it seems to me that we should be sharing our wealth with those who dwell in poverty. In our sharing, we shall find that there is still plenty for us and them too. Feeding the hungry, therefore, should not only provide for the moment, but erase hunger for ever.
Just a few thoughts. Any comments to help me on my way would be appreciated.
HJ in CA
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 17:44:01
At our pastor's school this past January, one of our leaders used this story of the 5 loaves and two fishes. He re-told the story along these lines -- the disciples checked for food that could be shared with the crowd. One disciple found the lad with the 5 loaves and 2 fish. He counted it carefully -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loaves; 1, 2 fish. That's not enough -- but maybe I am counting it wrong. And yet, Jesus told them to give them something to eat. He called over one of the other disciples, and they counted it together -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loaves; 1, 2 fish. That's not enough. And yet Jesus told them to give them something to eat. Maybe we are not counting it right, so they got 2 more disciples to count it with them. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loaves; 1, 2 fish. That's not enough. And yet Jesus told them to give the people something to eat. So they gathered all the disciples together to count. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loaves; 1, 2 fish. That's not enough to feed a crowd of over 5000. And yet Jesus told them to give the crowd something to eat. So they went to Jesus, told him that they had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loaves; 1, 2 fish -- but maybe they were counting it wrong. Jesus said that they were counting it wrong. So he took the bread and fish and started to count -- you've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 loaves; 1, 2 fish; and you've got me!
How many times do we forget to count on Jesus! Instead, we count only on what we can put our hands on, only on what we can verify and control. When we count like that, we will never have enough for the world hungry for good news. And yet, if we count on Jesus, all will eat and be filled!
Another note: The musical "Lazarus" has a wonderful song based on the 5 loaves and 2 fishes called, "I Saw The People Gathered."
OLAS
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 17:53:14
Nescient Preacher in IN
As to your question, Michelle's final comment is probably the most accurate, however, I'll give my personal spin on it. John, as the last gospel writer, spoke in large part of things the synoptic writers did not - he didn't repeat them, but told things they did not tell. This may simply be a recolletion of John's that didn't come through the others.
However, I feel Michelle is correct... we don't know.
Peace, JG in WI
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 18:52:16
Loaves and Fishes by David Whyte
http://www.gratefulness.org/play/poetry/whyte.cfm
eke in TX - Pace e Bene
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 18:53:45
eke! it's a mouse - That's Deke in TX
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 20:25:30
I don't know about you, but if Jesus had given me a small loaf of bread and told me to stand in front of a crowd of thousands to feed them with it, I would have thought "Right." I would have felt ridiculous. I think a big part of this miracle is that they took a step in faith, doing something that made absolutely no sense at all because Jesus told them to do it. They had to conquer their fear of embarrassment in order to participate in the blessing. O my, O my......Blessings to you all - Preacher Pat
Date: 28 Jul 2002
Time: 21:35:42
Dear folks of the word: thots I hope that we don't make the disciples participants in making this miracle, just participants in passing out the bounty. Also beware in connecting it to the Eucharist...water to wine, I can buy, but fish to wine? that is really a stretch...keep the comparisons to the Great Banquet maybe?!
Oh, yes, Bounty, that is the common thread in all of our texts this week...not so much the abundance of the bread and fish (or bread and milk or wrestling)...but that nothing was over 'til all were satisfied. That there were leftovers means that the supply was more than enough to meet the needs.
If we have 1-2-3-4-5 loaves and 1-2 fish and Jesus..."now we have 12 baskets and Jesus; that may mean that even the scraps from Jesus' ministry can fill the 12 apostles/12 tribes of Israel." (this last bit paraphrased from the "Expositor's Commentary") revdjenk in Erie
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 04:45:06
What I have always liked about this story is the hidden little nugget in v. 19. This story is usually referred to as "Jesus feeding the five thousand" but, in fact, it is the disciples who feed the crowd. V. 19 says Jesus "blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples," and then it was "the disciples [who] gave them to the crowds." This is a story about the empowerment of Jesus' followers to do the work of meeting needs, not simply a story about Jesus doing one more "magical" thing.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 07:27:10
I only have..... We behave this way a lot. We only have so much to give.... time, money, energy, talents and often patience. Most of the people in this story felt they had nothing. One person only had a little. Actually, it was plenty, for him. It was only deemed 'a little' by the disciples as they searched for something to feed the masses.
I cleaned out my refrigerator the other day. Part of the process was pulling out leftovers that had found their way into the back crevices of the refrig. What I pulled out had once been delectable morsels much too tasty to toss out. But now it was, well, disgusting. I won’t be anymore graphic than that. I'm sure you've experienced the same. So, what about what we possess, that once was good enough to share. Do we share or put it away for another time only to find it much much later changed into something not fit for anything....
Not sure where I'm going to take this... but perhaps ya'll can "chew" on it awhile. :) mitcavis
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 08:20:44
mitcavis,
You really want us to chew on those disgusting leftovers?
LOL! Michelle
Seriously, good food for thought!
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 11:48:15
'Twas writtin: "Part of the process was pulling out leftovers that had found their way into the back crevices of the refrig. What I pulled out had once been delectable morsels much too tasty to toss out. But now it was, well, disgusting."
Mitcavis! You didn't leave them long enough. A learned article in a 1973 issue of The Journal of Irreproducible Results proved that, if left, long enough, the leftovers that migrate to the back of the refrigerator will transmigrate to your closet, turning into those extra paper-covered wire hangers that seem to come from nowhere and collect in the closet by the hundreds. (The only seem to come from nowhere because, as you see, they are actually spiritually evolved leftovers.)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 12:27:18
Wow! Here it is only Monday, and I'm already preparing next Sunday's sermon -- what a rarity for me; usually it's late Saturday night/early Sunday morning.
Preacher Pat, I'm right with you on the 'leap of faith' idea. Yesterday, we had (in our monthly series) a session on 'the power of prayer' and it was one of the things I talked about -- how we fear to ask for what we might term 'improbable' because we fear the consequences of not receiving it. Instead we ask for what we believe can fall into the range of the 'do-able' even though we believe all things are do-able for God.
I, too, am guilty of that. On September 1, I turn 50 and five days later I will be married (for the first time; her first as well). She currently lives in Scotland, and we need to await a visa so she can return with me after the wedding. It might take up to six months! I have given it up to the Lord to smooth the paperwork paths and allow the visa to be ready in time. I was hesitant to ask Him, as I feared the consequences if it wasn't ready. How would I feel? react? If I'm to have credibility as a preacher, I need to be able to lift such things to the Lord and not be concerned; just expectant. Not an easy task!! Out of this personal incident, I can relate to the disciples being told to feed the 5,000 with just five loaves and two fish. Instead of trusting, I'd be expecting major embarrassment as soon as we ran out of food!
Thanks for the seeds so many of you have offered over the past many months. I tend to be a late-comer at the very end of the week, so I've not had many opportunities to share my thoughts. God has blessed me with the ability to get up and preach, with no notes or script, and will even show me what to say as I go along -- now there's a 'leap of faith'!! and yet when it comes to asking for some things in prayer or trusting God to provide, I hesitate. Sometimes I wonder what it takes for us to allow the mustard seed to grow inside us.
Blessings to all, Don in Ontario, Canada
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 14:22:15
Preacher Pat, I like your take on it! Mitcavis, I know those leftovers personally! Like the illustration and idea. Might I combine the leap of faith with the leftovers somehow? Food for thought. Is it a leap of faith to share what "seemingly little" we have while it's still good? Stewardship possibilties abound. REVJAW
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 14:56:06
Taking a look at Matt 14:13 pushed me back to the earlier story. So far my topic is from Orgy to Grace. Help me! Rev.Touch
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 14:57:02
The word is (for)Rev. Touch
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 15:28:16
I like Jesus' answer to the disciples when they want him to send the crowd away to find food
Jesus say "YOU give them something to eat."
I think he's still waiting for the church to get that right.
Pr.Del in Ia
Date: 29 Jul 2002
Time: 18:08:08
Reams of junk mail mixed in with the bills and clergy communications today. Still fairly new at this, I can't get over how much mail a pastor gets! Still not sure where to put it all.
An envelope from United Methodist Communications stands out among it all. A churchwide appeal for Southern Africa famine relief. I hear Jesus say, "YOU give them something to eat." I say, "Yes, Lord, but You know how they get with too many special offerings. Grumble, grumble, grumble."
How to lovingly compare those grumbles to Jacob's wrestling so hearts will want to give them something to eat? A task too large for me, but not for God.
Thank you all for your thoughts week after week!
pastorkat PA
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 04:20:46
Jesus is in grief. He has just heard that his cousin John has been beheaded, and all he wants to do is be alone for a while.
And yet still they come. Wanting healing and feeding. Never satisfied. A constant stream of people seeking help.
Any clergy will tell you, that the demands of ministry never end. And yet so often parishioners or those who come seeking our assistance, have little, if any idea, of what limited resources we use to try to satisfy them. We are limited and inadequate human beings, and yet we are expected to satisfy the demands of a suffering world.
The disciple's answer to the problem is so similar to many of my parishioners response to difficult situations. Send them away, let them fend for themselves. Why should we be responsible?
Human beings, myself included, are loath to take on the awesome responsibility of compassion, and yet Jesus in his worst time possible, indicates to the disciples that they do have a responsibility. There is an element of frustration and pleading in the statement, "They need not go away; you give them something to eat."
I am tired of so many of my people not even attempting to live out their Christian claim of compassion and love. I am tired of their reluctance to tackle the large issues, preferring instead to dance around the edges with petty issues.
I guess I am tired of them thinking that because I am a priest, that I have any special advantage over them. I am no more than a single human being, but I know that even with the inadequate resources of my own existence, God has been able to use me. I don't claim any super powers, just a simple willingness to have a go.
This is what Jesus was looking for.
I wonder what Jesus (yes that's right, Jesus) learnt from this occasion?
"Unless a single grain fall into the earth and die, it remains just a single grain." Multiplication is the secret to satisfying the world.
Go and make disciples. Hmmm!
Some preliminary thoughts on a very powerful gospel. Have a good week everyone.
Regards, KGB
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 06:23:39
Mitcavis,
thanks for the illustration with the reefer. Know that crevice personally. I am an interim in a church which is stuck in the crevice. They are truly blessed with a fantastic complex but they are extremely picky and pricey when it comes to sharing it, therefore it sits empty...a tasty morsel saved for another time. Meanwhile people are leaving over the collective stinginess and narrowmindedness and we there we have the crevice. Thanks, this is bible school week (they do use it once and a while) and your words are welcomed food. KS in PA
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 07:13:52
In Matthew's reading we see the disciples offering Jesus the most obvious solution to a problem. "They're hungry. Send them away."
How often do we do that?
When we are praying, do we inform God of the problems and tell him how to "fix" the situation?
It's not hard to imagine his sitting there saying, "You be part of the solution "(You give them something to eat) even when we don't think we have the resources or the abilities to be a part of the solution.
GC in IL
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 07:42:44
Hi, Friends...
I have an experience to share with you that you may be able to use as a sermon illustration. I think it fits beautifully with Jesus making use of what we have and mutiplying it many times over.
Here goes...Several years ago I served a small rural church in North Central Kansas, and like all ...or most churches, we have our traditional summer vacation bible school. This particular year we decided to send our VBS money to the Heffer Project Internationl. We collected enough money to buy some baby chicks for food for somebody hunger. After we sent our money in, I thought it was all over...mission accomplished.
I didn't think much about it, until one cold snowy January day, I received the nicest letter from Heffer Project International, thanking our Church for the VBS donation which was added to some other money to buy a WATER BUFFALOE for a family in Southeastern Asia!!! The letter went on to explain how the water buffaloe would be used to help plow the fields for crops for several years, and when it became to old to do that, it would be butchered for food for some family.
From a few baby chicks to a Water Buffaloe... Christ made a real multiplying of food there!!! Hope you can use it in some way. Have a Spirit Filled Sunday!!!! Jim, Kansas
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 09:35:39
KS in PA saidn, "thanks for the illustration with the reefer."
THE WHAT????
I certainly hope it was only for medicinal purposes!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 12:06:15
What if my church heard Jesus say, "YOU give them something to eat"? What would people say?
We don't have enough! I don't know how to pray in public. I can't find the book of Hebrews in the Bible! I could't find the Lord's Prayer in the Gospels! I'm not trained in pastoral care.
But, I can hold someone's hand. I can play the harmonica for someone who's in a coma. I can volunteer occasionally in the local food bank. I can write a letter to the editor about domestic violence. When we start sharing the little we do have, God empowers it to multiply. MTSOfan
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 15:54:53
I see that the math folk are focused on counting. Donovan over at Sermon Writer is on that trail. I am getting a vision of a Martha Stewart program, "How to Feed Five Thousand". May even compare the Jesus Way to the Herod Way earlier in the chapter. Let me give you counters an illustration. When I was in college in Mississippi we had a hypnotist come to campus to do a program. He had hypnotized students to do foolish things on stage. One delightful girl was told that she would be unable to remember the number 7. When asked to count to ten she would skip the number seven. Told to use her fingers, she was confused but still insistent that she knew how to count. I remember a line like "Why, Miss Minnie Lee Ledbetter (Jerry Clower country) at Liberty Elementary School taught me to count to ten just like this, 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10. So there!" What evil dellusionist causes disciples to count out Jesus? Feed me folks. jrbnrnc
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 16:15:39
KS in PA
Only a truly D.P. could turn a refrig into a reefer!! It's not even Saturday night. :)
As for myself.... Eric has changed the entire way I now look into my closet.
good evening! mitcavis
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 17:14:17
jrbnrnc said "I am getting a vision of a Martha Stewart program, 'How to Feed Five Thousand'."
Don Imus of radio fame used to do a comedy routine about "Billy Sol Harkus of Del Rio, Texas" who had a "Holy Land Amusement Park" -- one of the items you could buy there was the "Holy Land Cook Book" in which there was a recipe for taking two Mrs. Paul's Fish Sticks and five loaves of Levi's Jewish Rye Bread to "feed those 5,000 unexpected drop in guests."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 19:52:33
Thank all for sharing your bread and fish this week. Jesus took the fish and bread and he lifted it up before the Father and blessed it. Then he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples and they gave it to the crowd. Henri Nowen writes about being "Chosen, Blessed, Broken, and Given"
I am considering using this text for communion. Jesus was chosen by God to be the savior of the world. He was blessed by God in all his deeds and actions. He was broken at Calvary for you and for me, and he was given out of love in order that we might be reconciled to God.
You and I are also chosen by God. God blesses us daily. We too are broken by grief, hurt, pain, and suffering, but we are broken in order that God might give us to a hurting world for its healing. So it is with the people in our congregations. They are chosen, blessed, broken, people that God wants to give to the world for its healing.
As often as we eat bread and drink from the cup let us do so in rememberance of the one who was chosen, blessed, broken, and given for the sins of the world. May it even be so of us.
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 19:53:55
Thank all for sharing your bread and fish this week. Jesus took the fish and bread and he lifted it up before the Father and blessed it. Then he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples and they gave it to the crowd. Henri Nowen writes about being "Chosen, Blessed, Broken, and Given"
I am considering using this text for communion. Jesus was chosen by God to be the savior of the world. He was blessed by God in all his deeds and actions. He was broken at Calvary for you and for me, and he was given out of love in order that we might be reconciled to God.
You and I are also chosen by God. God blesses us daily. We too are broken by grief, hurt, pain, and suffering, but we are broken in order that God might give us to a hurting world for its healing. So it is with the people in our congregations. They are chosen, blessed, broken, people that God wants to give to the world for its healing.
As often as we eat bread and drink from the cup let us do so in rememberance of the one who was chosen, blessed, broken, and given for the sins of the world. May it even be so of us.
Date: 30 Jul 2002
Time: 20:05:22
O.K. I am using this. I think it's neat that this is the passage now, when the 9 Minors in Pennsylvannia were rescued, and good! NO tramatic stress!!! Correlation to bring in they shared one sandwich and a can of soda. Nine people, one sandwich and one can of soda...and God kept them safe and they were not only rescued but fine! How many of us will use this in our sermons Sunday?? Boy, sometimes God makes it easy! We needed to hear that good news, encouragement- look at all the bad news-war. God has not gone away- He hears us, our prayers---He is compassionate now as then, he sends the Holy Spirit to care for us...He heals us, feeds us, clothes us... I think the title of my sermon will be Don't you think we could use a little Good news today... (O.K. who sings that country song?) Maybe play for the people...a girl sings it...something like well i read the morning paper today, nobody OD'ed nobody burned a single building down... and something about all the children in Ireland had to do is play!!! Healing Sermon This Sunday I think We could all use a little good news today
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 05:02:53
Hello Usually just read over all the wonderful comments but don't say anything - however... This past weekend I attended my 40th high school reunion. Was talking to a classmate about where our lives had taken us. He related the following story. He was running an environmental company. The hurricane in Honduras occurred. He said, "God put the idea in my head that I should do something so I emailed the bishop of Honduras,asking what I could do while thinking that takes care of that because I will never get an answer! The next morning there was not only an answer, it was a specific answer. "We need water." The classmate, George Greene met with some engineers and they devised a water purifying system that could be placed anywhere - even in places without electricity (can be gas run). Senator Strom Thurmond arranged for a transport plan to take the containers to Honduras (they made six of them). So within two weeks, thousands of people were able to have clean water. Then George said he began to feel uncomfortable in his old job. So that company ended and a non-profit was started with a 10year global mission to bring safe drinking water to 100million people. The web site is www.watermissions.org -- This ministry is viewed as bringing not only safe drinking water but God's "living water" to all who are hungering for life.
gigi in fla
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 09:20:51
Hi All. I have been a usually frequent reader but very infrequent contributor. Thanks for your work & words. I try to go with what I heard, but only see one or two that come close to what God seems to be strongly saying to me. This week's passage leaves me no room for nice words about what we can give, or how God can use us in ordinary ways (increasing volunteering or giving in a small way) or communion. It is about Jesus taking what the disciples KNEW wasn't enough and turning it into something that would meet people's needs in a miraculous way. When are we going to trust God to take us and do things far beyond what we "can" do? Don't let your fears or "common sense" prevent this from being a place where God begins to perform miracles in your people! - Joe Bell, Gastonia, NC
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 09:23:45
Pretty sure the country song you are thinking of is sung by Anne Murray, "A Little Good News" or something close to that. This will be my last Sunday in this parish. I have accepted a position as a hospital chaplain (actually a CPE residency). So the bread and fishes will be my last sermon. I will be using the idea of "Blessings Abound" speaking to both the Gospel lesson, and my seven years with this congregation. I'm praying hard for the composure to get through this day. We've had some troubles lately, but lots of good times, and I will dearly miss these people. However, my move is truly Spirit-led, and the blessings will continue to come, for me and for them. Katrinka
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 11:55:23
Hey all,
just surfed onto this site and enjoying the breadth of comments on this passage...what a fun bunch! Except Eric. He's a little twisted I think! :)
For what it's worth, I've often wondered what would happen if we abolished the Finance Committees and just used this passage as our model for stewardship. You know, gather whatever the people bring, consecrate it for no other purpose than building God's kingdom, and then DISTRIBUTE it right there on the spot. All of it.
After the parishoners pick there jaws up off the floor we say "now, God has blessed it, you go and give to them." Somewhere in the back of my mind I feel like preachers would still eat and mortgages would still be paid...but can you imagine what people would bring forth to God for blessing if they were building the Kingdom, and not some committee? Just a though.
Wilscalet in CA
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 13:27:36
Hi,
This Sunday is the Homecoming at the church and it is a big deal for the congregation. That influences the way I am approaching this message. I have been interested in the fact that the preceding several verses describes the execution of Jesus' first cousin, John. Mt. 14:12 John's disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus. 13: When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by board privately to a solitary place...Then follows the feeding of the 5,000 men plus the women and children. It seems to me that this is basically what happens when there is a death. Family receives the word. Family goes off to grieve. Then bunches of people come to eat. It also seems to me that these three points (1-bad stuff, 2-hurting alone, 3-coming together with Jesus and others to eat and be comforted) could be a foundation for a communion sermon, for this homecoming sermon, or for dealing with life. Perhaps one summary of this could be, “it’s a tough world, so let’s eat and party.” At homecoming, we think of those no longer with us, we re-establish friendships with those who come just for the event, and if we look, we can see the way Christ comes alive in relationships with those we love and eat with. I am interested in the ideas, observations of others.
In His name, Leon <><
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 13:34:21
Finally decided on my title for Sunday...
"Little is Much" from the song by Mary Rice Hopkins.
'Little is much when He lives in your heart. Little is much when you know who you are.
Hear these words that I speak. I have come for the children, I have come for you. Through My name, greater things you will do. Whether you are a baby brand new, or if you are a hundred and two."
mitcavis
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 13:52:07
Blessings All (And I think Eric is just fun, not completely twisted)
Been thinking along these lines- how we look around to see what the needs are (if we even do that much) and then we look around to see what the resources are and concentrate on how little we have, how small we are. Like the sailor's prayer that goes, "Oh, Lord, the sea is so great and I am so small" leaving out any reference to God who can do all things. The disciples looked around, but Jesus "looked up to heaven." With all our stewardship programs, still nothing is as effective as getting people looking in the right direction
Now, all I have to do is figure out how to do that!
RevGilmer in Texarkana
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 13:53:57
Leon,
Good idea, but remember that the people weren't coming to be present with Jesus to give him comfort in his time of grief.
Michelle
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 14:30:57
Wiscalet in CA, you come up with an idea like getting rid of finance committees and pledging and relying only on whatever happens to get dropped in the plate ... and you call ME twisted!!!! Sheesh!
I am a bit twisted this week ... I've been invited to consider a "hierarchical" position in another regional judicatory (what we 'Pisspalians call a "diocese") and I find the position quite intriguing ... but I promised my daughter we wouldn't leave here until she finishes high school next May. So I'm trying to figure out how to do both if it comes to that and that is "twisting" me a bit...
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS - I went to grade school, jr. high, college, graduate school, and seminary in CA (I escaped during high school) -- no wonder I'm twisted!
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 14:31:54
Jesus said "You give them something to eat." Jesus apparently understood the the ability of the disciples to feed these people in the same way that he was able. We usually don't have nearly as much faith in ourselves and each other as believers who are filled with the Spirit of Christ....as Christ has faith in us..... We are perfectly capable because of Him but we have little faith much of the time.....Christ keeps bailing us out....Can we ever grasp...take hold of the authority he have given to us as his children? ABPA
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 14:32:58
Jesus said "You give them something to eat." Jesus apparently understood the the ability of the disciples to feed these people in the same way that he was able. We usually don't have nearly as much faith in ourselves and each other as believers who are filled with the Spirit of Christ....as Christ has faith in us..... We are perfectly capable because of Him but we have little faith much of the time.....Christ keeps bailing us out....Can we ever grasp...take hold of the authority he have given to us as his children? ABPA
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 14:33:17
Jesus said "You give them something to eat." Jesus apparently understood the the ability of the disciples to feed these people in the same way that he was able. We usually don't have nearly as much faith in ourselves and each other as believers who are filled with the Spirit of Christ....as Christ has faith in us..... We are perfectly capable because of Him but we have little faith much of the time.....Christ keeps bailing us out....Can we ever grasp...take hold of the authority he have given to us as his children? ABPA
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 15:43:05
Mitcavis and all,
Around my house, we refer to the cleaning out the old leftovers from the fridge as playing Star Trek: you know, seeking out new life forms and boldly going where no man has gone before. Isn't that sort of what Jesus told the disciples to do? Discover a new form of life by living by faith in what God can do beyond what they can do. Going boldly into the places where they had always been afraid to go and doing things that they never thought they could do. Trekkin' on with Him!
Mike from Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 15:57:36
I certainly don't want to count Jesus out of the equation in this miracle. But that is the point. It is Jesus's involvement that enables the disciples to achieve their potential.
If Jesus/God had wanted, there would be no need for the Church. If we believe that God has the power to supply all the world's needs in an instant (and I would believe that)then the episode of the feeding of the five thousand is irrelevant in the scheme of things. He feeds billions of people everyday. It is what Jesus enabled the disciples to achieve that is the miracle, and what was taught in the process.
Keeping a balance in the divinity/humanity of Christ in this episode is not easy. Too much emphasis on the divinity and these events can appear almost frivolous in the scheme of things. Too much humanity, and we fail to appreciate the mysterious and miraculous aspect of what happened.
In my previous post, I simply wanted to highlight that Jesus was pre-occupied with the grief of John, and was simply asking the disciples, what would happen if I was not here to help you out of this bind. What would you do for the crowd?
The disciples response was so human. Send them away.
Jesus says, "That's simply not good enough. Look for another way."
The entire gospel message is about this circumventing of human response to relationship. Jesus was the master at finding a way, when others had given up. This was his purpose on earth. That is why the Father sent him.
Jesus's presence in this miracle and every miracle is crucial, but let's not deny our own contribution and what our role and purpose are.
Thanks for getting the juices flowing.
Regards, KGB
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 16:36:45
I’m just freethinking on the reference made to the miners who shared a sandwich and a can of soda. I also think some neat things could be done with their collective resolve to either make it together or die together.
When one contemplates this life on earth one realizes our resources are also limited and “There ain’t none of us getting out of here alive.”
There’s also something profound about the images of the miners drawn from the belly of the earth in a container that resembles a coffin and brought into life.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 17:31:21
I am going to preach this scripture from the viewpoint of the "young lad," and the title is going to be, I think, "5,000 to 1." I will try to tie that in with communion, sort of like however small a gift we have to give, if we give it gladly Jesus will multiply it, and just as He fed 5,000, He will feed each and every one of us at the communion table. Five thousand or just one, He feeds us. Pastor Neale
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 17:49:48
Can anybody tell me why this address
http://www.phonebookoeworld.com/slow/canada.htm
shows up at the bottom of my IE5.0 when I'm on this site????
This doesn't happen when I'm using Netscape....
Just wondering, Eric in KS
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 18:52:29
An interesting biography - Mary McLeod Bethune - illustrates what one can do when not focusing on the lack of resources. Countless people benefitted from Mary's education provided first by the church, then by an unknown woman from Detroit. Worth checking out... http://www.usca.sc.edu/aasc/bethune.htm
What wonders God performed through a ruffian group of disciples, through a poor African-American woman. What wonders can God perform through you, through me, if we only keep our eyes on Christ as the provider, not ourselves!
peace, pastorkat PA
Date: 31 Jul 2002
Time: 19:32:19
Thanks KGB.
Signed, Struggling seminarian who has to preach a big one this Sunday.
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 08:06:34
Hi, I am copying below a submission from the “previous discussion” section of DPS which I think is applicable to portions of the 2002 discussion.
In His name, Leon
28 Jul 1999 14:35:10 We've already mentioned the fact that this story takes place in Matthew immediately after Jesus hears about the death of John the Baptist - and it's assumed that Jesus is in grief. I wonder, though, if the same isn't true of the crowds. John the Baptist apparently attracted a large following, and was something of a folk hero to the populous. They were probably in grief as well. One of their hero's had just been taken from them. Jesus responds by having compassion on the grieving masses, healing them, and giving them a funeral dinner. Maybe there's a sermon here about dealing with grief and dissappointment. Instead of wallowing in self-pity the real healing, and the real miracle, takes place with we come together in our grief, and share our meager resources with one another. DR
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 08:19:11
Non-christians reject this story as mere legend. Actually, they (and many of us) would throw out many miraculous events in the bible as primative superstition. I'm going to take a moment in the sermon to address the assmuptions that christians have about miracles. Maybe it will help my congregation be able to talk about these alkward passages in public.
Perhaps I'll begin with how we freely throw around the word miracle. "It's a miracle we met." "It's a miracle we got here on time." "Its a miracle he lived." I believe that most events we call miracles are really "undiscovered natural processes" (Strobel, qouting Craig in 'the case for faith'") This is basically called the idea of "God of the gaps". We attribute events that we don't understand or are ignorant of to the miraculous hand of God. The problem with this is that as our knowledge grows the gaps God fills shrink. God, then, gets squeezed out of our lives.
I like Craig's definition of a miracle being: "an event not producible by the natural causes that are operative at the time and place that the event occurs." So miracles are completely outside the realm of physical reality--like God becoming a human or a finite amount of bread becoming more than the sum of its parts. So, in the strict sense, I'm not sure it's a miracle that someone's cancer goes into remission because we are still fairly ignorant of the way bodies work and heal themselves. Healing is well within the realm of this physical reality; bread self replicating is not.
So there's some fodder for me to revise and make relevant to my folks who shuffle their feet when objections are made about the claims of faith.
Zack in Atlanta
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 08:31:55
Zack wrote: "Perhaps I'll begin with how we freely throw around the word miracle."
I think it would be well to remember that "miracle" is not a biblical word. None of the Gospellers refer to Jesus' acts as "miracles" ... In fact, the Synoptics don't really "call" them anything; they simply report the story. John calls them "signs", but isn't specific as to what they are signs of ... power? divinity? the kingdom? He leaves that open for us to consider.
Food for thought.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 08:36:13
Never do nothing if all you can do is a little. With the Lord you will do much.
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 08:46:44
At the Biblical Studies Foundation website, there's a reasonably good monograph on Jesus' various acts and signs entitled "The Miracles of Jesus" by J. Hampton Keathley IV, Th.M.
His introduction has a good discussion of what a "miracle" is and his discussion of the feeding of the 5,000 has some good points.
The URL for the index to the work is http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/topics/miracles/toc.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 09:06:48
I thought I'd share this with you, too ...
It's an article from The Jerusalem Post about the geography and some of the symbolic meaning of the story of the feeding of the 5,000 (and Matthew's second feeding story about the 4,000).
http://info.jpost.com/2000/Supplements/Millennium/holylandgolan4.html
Take a look.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 09:11:34
I've added a couple of hymn suggestions, although I neglected to say that the numbers are from the LBW (Lutheran Book of Worship).
Michelle
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 09:23:22
Eric, it's a good article, thanks. Pr.del in IA
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 14:17:54
My initial title for Sunday is: Multiplication Tables
As I read all your posts I started to think about how our developments in agriculture has allowed us as a nation to multiply the amount of food we're able to harvest off the same amount of land. But as our harvests mutliply so does hunger in our own land and around the world.
Mark in WI
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 17:42:54
Hello everyone! Thanks for the great ideas and thinking points. Some sermons are real problems and I appreciate the help. I've been working on "Answering the Challenge", and trying to take the idea a little further. In Australia the Commonwealth Games have been a huge hit on TV so this idea is coming in to things too. Keep the ideas coming and thanks for your help. Sue (Newcastle Australia:)
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 18:17:01
I remember the man, as he took the cup of soup, only one cup for so many hungry mouths, and he passed it among his homeless brothers, those who were like him, those who also lived on the street. Many passed by and looked upon the crowd of dirty and rumpled and beaten wanderers as if they had some social disease ? and of course they did. It was the disease of rejection, the disease of those who could not quite make it in this land of success, who did not quite have what it took to be noted in the dominion of the Marlboro Man. But it was these failures, these no-accounts who were sharing that one cup, that one cup of condensed noodles and freeze-dried vegetables, that one cup of life in the midst of the death. Sharing in the midst of those who wore the mantle of success, the ones who had ?made it,? the ones who did not yet know they were dead.
I remember the woman, how she went from worker to worker, carrying them cold, clear water on this hot dusty day. It was water to quench the thirst of those who built for the other, who built because that was the only way that they might find a place to shelter their own battered souls. She carried the water that quenched even the deepest thirst. And the others, those who did not understand, those who could not see ?what was real,? they told her that she should not go to that placed of building. They told her she would be in the way. They told her that she would be the point of derision, that she would be laughed at. They told her she was just a silly woman who had no legs, a cripple, who had a wild and crazy dream that somehow she could make a difference. And yet as she rolled her heavy wheel-chair through the sucking sand, she touched more than dry mouths, she touched the places of their deepest shadow. She touched even the souls that were too parched to know it.
I remember the Muslim, the one they told me needed to be saved. I remember how she came and got me, when I did not even realize I needed to be gotten. She pulled me into that room where she now spent her life, a life of misery and torment, a life of loneliness and loss. She took me into that place that reminded her everyday, that screamed to her in every way ? ?REFUGEE.? Worthless, forgotten, dead. She led me into that place of her pain, the death of her children, the rape of her daughter, the ending of the life that she had known. She led me into that place, set a table before me, and gave me that which she could not afford to give ? She gave me her food. And she gave me her love. Even when it was those like me ? those who claimed the name Christian ? who shelled her village and destroyed her existence. She loved me ? this Muslim ? this Christ.
My friends, this story was never about a miracle of food. This story was about a man, who after hearing his friend, his cousin, had been murdered, who after wanting to find his own grief, nevertheless, reaches out of his own brokenness, his own loss, and shows, once again, what it means to love. This is Jesus. This is the Christ. This is the broken and battered Son of God. It was never about some miracle of food.
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 18:26:44
For my friend Zack:
I remember how two white guys from Georgia would sit on an old porch in a neighborhood that most wished would simply go away ... how they would sit there late into the night speaking of justice and longing for shalom. I remember the wonder of that cold beer and the fullness of those warm nights. And I remember that we really did believe that Shalom would come.
Now my friend ... that is indeed a miracle.
Shalom Zack.
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 01 Aug 2002
Time: 22:28:23
I feel blessed this week because I am filling in for our Pastor this Sunday.In looking over this Sunday's lessons I thought I would connect this lesson to John's account in chapter 6 and focus on the boy. While the apostle Philip is saying not even 8 months wages would begin to feed the crowd the child gives all he has. With that small seed of faith Jesus produces a abundance. Too often we miss the small steps of those who give all they have focussing instead on "the big picture". Our congregation is blessed by a young man with Down's Syndrom who faithfully hands out bulletins and collects the offering each Sunday. A new couple arrived late one Sunday, the young man greated them with a nod because he has difficulty in speaking and led them to the visitors register. The couple later commented to the Pastor who was able to contact them later in the week,they never felt more welcome, because ot the quiet loving spirit of one who gave all he had. steve
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 08:10:40
Hello again! So many great preachers on this page. You always give me some great ideas.
As I read this text I keep hearing the words of Jesus, "They need not go away; you give them something to eat."
The disciples were faced with a problem - five thousand hungry people and no food to feed them all. The text says that the disciples recognized the problem, but wanted Jesus to do something about it.
But Jesus turns it around on the disciples. He is saying "You do something about it". "You do something about the problem you are faced with". "You do something to help matters". "And, in doing so, I will be with you!"
I think the message here will resonate with all listeners who are faced with problems. Some of us may struggle with addictions, financial difficulties, or depression. But the Lord wants us to do 'something' about it. Even though our resources may be low, our spirits weak, Jesus says "do something about it!"
Too often we fall into the trap of thinking we can't do anything about our troubles. But the truth is that we can. We can't allow laziness, excuses, or feeling sorry for ourselves keep us from overcoming sin and all the forces of evil. Each and everyone of us has to 'do something' about our problems. And Jesus says, "He will be with us until the end of the ages."
The lesson for us this Sunday is learned through the disciples. They were faced with a problem, they called on Jesus, they did something about their trouble, and Jesus performed a miracle. Because the disciples did something (namely obeying Jesus and distributing bread) they over came a great obstacle.
We are not just people of God, we are the empowered people of God gifted and sent with a mission. Use this gift and do something about the problems that you are faced with.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore.....
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 08:40:12
What kinds of things are impossible? Is it impossible to care for the elderly in a small town, rather than sending them to larger neighboring communities with more "facilities?" Is it impossible to clean up the ground where toxic chemicals have been dumped? Is it impossible to protect the population from the West Nile Virus? Is it impossible to cure cancer? Is it impossible to be elected president of the United States, and if that IS accomplished, is it impossible to do the good for which you had hoped? Is it impossible to entice people to follow the will of God?
Is it impossible to feed 6354 people with five loaves of bread and two fish?
Michelle
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 10:17:37
Blessings, Eric, on your decision. You have blessed this site so richly, it's only right that you should have greater responsibilities. Of course, your daughter deserves your best, too. I'll pray for some rich compromise. CEinCO
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 12:45:40
"Blessings, Eric, on your decision."
Eric, I missed what you decsion was about. Are you moving?
Pr.del in IA
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 12:55:38
Eric, Now I know why you picked up on my reefer comment, CA guy that you are. My husband was an owner operator truck driver and we had reefers (refrigerated trailers)....lol..despite coming of age in the '60's that slipped by me. You are charmingly twisted.
KS in PA soon to be KS in ME
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 13:05:37
del asked ... "Eric, I missed what you decsion was about. Are you moving?"
Not as yet. I have to decide whether to entertain a process that might lead to that....
Thanks, CE for your comment and del for you inquiry.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 14:27:18
Eric, Boo! Hiss! On your clothes hanger theory! :-) It was great to read that entry after my absence for a couple weeks. WE MOVED! You want to talk about things that seem to multiply??? :-) On a more serious note, one person cautioned about the disciples and their role in this miracle. Yes, we have to recognize where the grace begins but we can't sit on our hands and let Jesus take care of it either. In the prayer that we attribute to Francis of Assisi... "Lord make ME and instrument of YOUR peace...." lp in CO
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 14:33:19
Jim in Kansas! Thanks for that story about the Heifer Project. As the pastor of a small membership church in Eastern Colorado, our VBS does support the Heifer project. It could work beautifully into this scripture. Blessings! lp in CO
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 15:14:51
Interesting discussion on miracles and signs. Several years ago, I read a paper on the concept of miracle from a Jewish perspective. I've been trying to locate the source without success but it was an appendix in a book that I had borrowed concerning the legend of Rabbi Loew and the Prague golem which protected the Jewish people of that city from persecution in 16th century Poland. The basic thought that I retained from the article was that a miracle is what happens when God intervenes. We naturally assume that this is always in a big way like the parting of the Red Sea or the feeding of the multitudes. Why do we assume that God doesn't act in a small, still way as well as speak in one. There have been times when I have been too busy, too hurried, too tied up with my own problems to deal with God and then something makes me look up at a blue sky or notice how green a leaf is or how a child's laugh seems to almost sparkle. Those things might have been there all along but not for me. They are all common everyday things, entirely reproducible but until I am shown them, they might as well not be there. Sometimes all God has to do to intervene is to say, "Look up." Isn't that a miracle? I want to phrase this carefully because I believe that Christ was (and is) fully capable of creating much from little exactly as the scripture indicates. Even if all that had happened was that He had touched the hearts of people who had been hiding some food back for their own consumption so that when the baskets were passed they took out some but put in more, isn't that also a sign and a wonder? Isn't turning a human heart to think more of others than of self a miracle and maybe a greater one than just stretching out some bread and fish? Maybe our problem is that we forget to look for God behind the little wonders.
Mike in Soddy Daisy
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 15:59:08
Wow! This is very interesting conversation. I will admit that this is the best pericope study I'm involved with for the moment.
I think it is important to remember who Matthew is writing for when we read the 'feeding of the five thousand'. He was writing for a primarily Jewish audience.
Now the text says that a crowd of people sat down on the grass and listened to Jesus speak. Among these people were most likely Greco-Roman pagans.
Think of some of the old-timers who become so narrow-minded in their thinking that they want 'their' church for themselves. I know that sounds a bit critical, but I've often been frustrated with people who misunderstand the whole 'missio dei' (mission of God). God's mission extends to all people.
Matthew must have been confronted with some of the same people. Many Jews were probably beside themselves thinking of the Messiah coming into the world for 'others' besides God's chosen people.
My point is that we must understand that Matthew is faced with a great challenge. He needed to make the story of Jesus appealling to Jews, as well as, Gentiles. Our text for Sunday says that after Jesus fed the hungry people they were filled. The Son of Man fed Gentiles physically and spiritually. What blasphemy is this?
But it also says that 12 baskets full were left. We, in this room, are preachers. Preachers choose their words very carefully. As a writer I am sure that Matthew didn't just throw in 12 by mistake. He was referring to the 12 Tribes of Israel.
My point is that Matthew was trying to say that, even after Jesus fed an enormous crowd of people, there was still plenty left for the Jews.
Its not about the miracle as much as it is about the abundance of the missio dei. God's Grace is for all - Jews and Gentiles.
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 17:05:03
New Pastor from Jersey said, "He was referring to the 12 Tribes of Israel."
Yes, that does seem to be the case... and in the later story of feeding 4,000 there are 7 baskets of leftovers. The article from the Jerusalem Post (I put the URL up above somewhere) indicates that that number would represent the Gentile nations who contributed folks to the populace of the Decapolis. Thus, the feeding stories in Matthew are about providing for and nourishing the entire world!
Great stuff, eh?
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 19:02:03
Monday was a travel day in seminary, and so it was a Tuesday class when Jim asked how it had gone for me that weekend, preaching at the church where I was a student associate. "Horrible", I said. " The sermon was just awful. You know how long and hard I worked on it, and it just seemed like the words slid over the front of the pulpit and plopped on the floor. Lifeless."
If Jim had been standing he might have put his hands on his hips, but he was sitting, so he gave me a hands-on-hips look and harrumphed: "You mean you only gave those people five loaves and two fish?"
There's a loaves-and-fish picture here in front of me, in my study, to remind me: that's all I have. That's what I give. (Thanks, Jim.) kbc in sc
Date: 02 Aug 2002
Time: 19:38:09
Eric Killinger writes, "This scenario calls to mind the story of a restaurateur named Caesar. It had been a bsy week at his eating establishment, and the food service truck would not arrive for another couple of days. The dining room was full of hungry patrons. The cooks were upset because they had nothing to prepare. How could they feed the clientele? Mr. Caesar entered the kitchen toasted some bread, collected lettuce and a block of parmesan cheese, anchovies, some eggs, balsamic vineagar, olive oil, Dijon mustard, Worcestershire sauce. These he carried along with large wooden bowl into the dining room. With a flourish that only his quick thinking and panache could pull off, he created ont he spot the very salad we knwo today as the Caesar salad." I thought this would make a good illustration about how like the 12 disciples, are God given creative energies can help us serve in many different contexts. What do you think? Angelic Residue, OR
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 04:16:41
For Those of You who are still reading this on Saturday morning,
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 04:23:20
Hi, Those of you still reading on Saturday morning, The best sermon that I read onthis topic was by E. Mitchell in Preaching for Black self-esteem. The title was don't count me out. In short, the bread was counted, the basket were counted, the people were counted. But the final line says, there were so many people NOT COUNTING THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN. After she reminds us of the old saying that some people are no account, we are reminded of all the people that don't count. Ie the people on that poster as UMCommunications ask for a donation. Our pockets wre open on Sept. 11, because the people were us, but across the globe they don't count. Women wearing Bakas in Afganistan, don't count, the children picking up dropped food packages, don't count, mentally disabled persons who come to church and make noise, don't count. Yet, although they weren't counted they still received this miracle of God's blessed gift, bread of heaven. When men count you out, God counts you in. Gen
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 05:00:25
Previous posting points out the reason I used 6354 instead of 5000, just an estimate, but could be very low. I believe many of the women would have been too restricted to be out listening to Jesus for an entire day.
Michelle
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 07:31:41
Mid morning on Saturday. The thoughts of so many of you help me to shape the sermon unfolding in my mind as the week progresses. We have just had the visit from the Pope for World Youth Days in Toronto. Not a Roman Catholic ... Anglican ... it has intrigued me the number of R.C.'s who went to such great lengths to engage in this event. Questions of motivation become part of my thinking. The same type of questions enter my thinking as I consider the 5000 who gather to hear Jesus. Why are they there? The miracle of the feeding is obviously very significant, but, the 'miracle' of so many who are drawn to hear Jesus is very significant as well. I might explore the gospel with the question "Why are you here?"
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 07:33:46
Forgot my name: Ripper, Ontario
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 11:41:10
Well, friends, it's late, but it's done...
My sermon for tomorrow incorporates all of the lessons for the day (except the Psalm)... that's a rarity (I usually don't have much from Paul in my sermons!)
Anyway, you can find it at http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/proper13-a-rcl-2002.htm