Date: 13 Jul 2002
Time: 19:49:29
When I was in college, my church did a production of "Godspell" (yes, I know this dates me!) During the intermission, I would come out on stage and tell this parable. "Judgment belongs to God," I would say, "so it's not up to us to get rid of the weeds in our little garden." I would start to walk off, then stop and say, "Besides, if we get rid of the weeds, we will miss something even more important in the will of God -- conversion, for God can turn the weeds into wheat!"
OLAS
Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 14:19:34
Several years ago I was in a pastoral support group which included a rabbi. For some reason we got to discussing Jesus's use of parables and this particular story came up. The rabbi told us that there is a similar parable told by one of the rabbis recorded in the Talmud and that there is a midrashic gloss on the story in which, during the next planting season, the Master's steward stays up at night to see who comes and sows the bad seed. To his surprise, it is the Master, walking in his sleep as if a dead man! The rabbinic use of the tale, thus, is to focus attention on how we have to accept at least some responsibility for both the good and the bad that occurs in our lives.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 18:42:36
I get so tired of people telling me how bad the world has gotten. They seem to miss the point of this story- the wheat and the tares are growing up together!
The world is as bad as it ever was but because of Christ and the ongoing work of reclamation of creation the world is also better than it has ever been since the fall.
We live in days of great potential -to grow up produce good fruit to witness the transformation of the tares into wheat- to see the kingdom grow and flourish- God will do the sorting out in his time- and it is good that God does the sorting not us because we are often times sorry horticulturalists unable to distinguish between weed and wheat.
blessings, Malcolm in TX
Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 18:50:10
In our Catholic lectionary we include the part that is skipped here about yeast added to wheat and how it changes the flour. I think of that crazy Lucy story where Lucy is baking bread and doesn't know what she is doing and adds too much yeast. It is all over the place. A little yeast of God changes even the hardest heart and transforms us to be more like Jesus. I'm tempted to skip all the fire part and just talk about the yeast and how it changes things in our lives. priest in Iowa
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 12:06:59
Another aspect of this passage that strikes me is how quickly we judge something (or someone) to be a weed. My favorite definition of a weed is "anything a farmer doesn't want at harvest." Corn is a weed in a soybean field! How quickly do we judge ourselves as being worthy of being "harvested" while others are judged to be weeds! And if we take Paul seriously, aren't we all weeds/sinners?
I recall, but can't put my hands on (yet) a poem about someone getting to heaven and being surprised at who was there -- and then discovering that they were more surprised that he was there! It seems to point out again that it is not up to us to decide who is a weed and who isn't. Our sin is that we are still "chewing on the apple" -- trying to decide good and evil apart from God, and we know how that turned out for Adam and Eve!
OLAS
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 12:11:20
My internet search didn't take long! Here is that poem -- OLAS
I dreamed of death the other night, And Heaven's gate swung wide, An Angel came with halo bright To usher me inside.
And there! To my astonishment Stood folks I'd judged and labeled As "quite unfit", "of little worth" And "spiritually disabled."
Indignant words rose to my lips, But never were set free. For every face showed stunned surprise -- Not one expected ME!
~~ author unknown
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 12:47:11
Some interesting posting three years ago! How do we allow God to change us when we are confronted with nasty life-stranging weeds?
Paula in FL
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 12:50:06
The Lutheran in me sees each individual Christian as both wheat and weed. All too often we look and see the "weeds" within others but fail to identify our own "weediness." This is especially true in my small congregation....there are a few members who congratulate themselves for being such wonderful Christians. And of course, those same few are pretty quick to point out the faults in those who are less involved.
Wheat and weed = saint and sinner.
VB in PA
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 13:46:34
This parable begs us to look past the church to the world. We sometimes get so locked up inside our stained glass worlds that we think God can not be outside. That out there are weeds only. The kingdom is more that the church. How do we convey this to those in the pews? csue in tx
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 15:24:52
As i read these posts and the parable, i would like to offer a contextual point. I come from a city, never had a garden and never want one. just the other day, the trustee chair wanted to rip weeds out of the flowers around the church office. i couldn't even tell what he was talking about. sometimes, we don't even see the weeds, and sometimes we don't even see the flowers.
also, would anyone have any ideas about this text relating to the psalm or the OT? Jen in PA
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 19:02:48
There is a recurring scene in "Shawshank Redemption" in the Warden's office where the placque with the words, "Judgement Cometh Soon" hanging there is scanned. When he realizes that he has been trapped in his own web of deception, he glances up at the words that have obviously come home to him. So, it is for all of us when we cry out for God to judge and punish sinners. TN Mack
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 19:44:29
Jen in PA, your neighbor in Ohio,Pastor Mary in OH , makes a good point on the OT site about Jacob the Liar getting a holy dream. It is one of the ironies that Jacob, the second born received the birth right of his father and became the father of Israel by deceit. God did not rip Jacob up by the roots and cast him into the fire but rather allowed Jacob to be fruitful and father the people of God.
This may be a stretch but I think that this could be developed into something good. Let us know what happens. Deke in TX – Pace e Bene
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 19:49:34
Jen, This from the last cycle from Deke of the North - Deke in TX.
14 Jul 1999 05:14:29 Thank you, the faithful few that give the O.T. some consideration each week. I have been leading my congregation on the journey with Abe/Sarah et al and it is very challenging yet worthwhile to inform them of the history of their faith. I try also to connect the O.T. and Gospel readings if and wherever possible. This week's gospel is a parable of the grace of God, and find Jacob's story a wonderful example of God's patience with Jacob. I think that Jacob too is a good example of how "goodness" and "evil"/ wheat and tares can be within the same person. As contrasted to always looking at the situation as some people being good and others bad. I have not been too kind to Jacob in my description of him so far, so I will have to "repent" somewhat about too judgemental, too quickly in my assessment of good and evil. Maybe I should learn to leave that to God, especially when God tends to see things in people that I don't.
As for the creation of sacred places, I tend to think that they must be wherever God is. Therefore, aren't all places sacred. I am fond of Elizabeth Barret Brownings poem: (excuse my poor memory) The whole world is a afire with God And burning bush aflame. Those who see take off their shoes The rest sit round and pluck blackberries.
I realize this "poem" works better with Moses' story, but isn't it true of Jacob/us? It is up to us to recognize God's presence in whatever situation we would find ourselves. I believe it was Bonhoeffer who defined the will of God in terms that it is God's will to be present with us in all circumstances. Deke of the North
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 20:40:44
Deke of the North: You are forgiven your "poor memory" -- just as help, here's the correct version of EBB's poem (You came close):
Earth’s crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God;
And only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries.
(From <Aurora Leigh. Book vii.>)
Bessings, Eric in KS
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 20:45:58
Jen: I see the connection 'twixt this Gospel and the Genesis lesson (and related psalm) in Jesus' explanation that "the field is the world" (v. 38). The lesson could be the omnipresence of God (which the Psalm adresses) as opposed to God's confinement to "holy places" as Jacob imagines. <But I like Deke in TX's idea about Jacob as a weed allowed to grow and bear fruit, too.>
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 06:14:27
Tommy in Tx: Forgive me for not responding to your question on stealing birthrights last week. Right now, my access to the web is limited, so I didn’t read your posting until 7/16 (I’m always curious to see responses to my postings). My church is in the process of buying its own computer, so soon, I hope, I’ll be able to participate in discussions in a more give & take manner. Ken in WV
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 07:36:28
An interesting comparison may be between the Gospel and Epistle readings. The Romans passage includes the theme of the entire creation groaning, waiting for the redemption to come, waiting for its freedom from decay. The theme of waiting eschatologically for what is to come. This seems to connect with the weeds we aren't to "tare" out because in God's time, the harvest will be what He planted it to be. "In His Time" would also be a good chorus to use in this regard.
Bob in VA
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 08:28:11
Deke in TX & in the North and Eric in KS,
Thank you all for your comments. they have given me something to chew on. Jen in PA
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 11:43:19
Like last week's parable, we are given an explanation. Someone once said that a good story is like a good joke. If you have to explain it, it's lost. Nonetheless, Matthew is afraid we're not smart enough to figure out Jesus' parables.
Or perhaps Matthew wants to change the parable slightly to fit it into the events of his own faith community -- a community that was becoming increasingly disappointed that Jesus still had not returned. At the same time, there were those who spouted Christian doctrine when it was to their benefit but quickly retreated into silence when persecution was likely. Matthew wants to say to the faithful to keep hope and that eventually these false Christians will receive their punishment in due time.
When Jesus tells the parable, what is striking is the patience of the farmer. Wait. Let the weeds grow, then we'll separate them. It's as if the farmer expects the weeds to become wheat during this time of delay. Indeed, that is possilbe in the kingdom of God. The patience of hte farmer is striking. It is a parable of hope. But when Matthew interprets the parable, he completely ignores the patience of hte farmer. It's all about the end of times when those false Christians will get their comeuppance. There's all that scary stuff of hell and damnation. Maybe we need to be patient with Matthew -- he's a weed full of hatred for hypocrites. Let Matthew grow until he can see the grace of God and so change from weed to wheat. Leopards do change their spots in the kingdom of God.
Karen from Ontario
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 13:11:36
Hey, You guys are so smart, I feel inadequate this week, Like Praying and nothing coming for a message for sunday. Thanks, Deke, for the Compliment on OT post... I kep getting those words Jacob the Liar/Jakob the Liar- like the Robin Williams movie. A jewish man who lies about having a radio to give people hope in the ghetto the nazi have them in. Of Course, Jakob gives his life, rather than tell the others the truth no Radio!?!? Deceit yes, but for a worthy cause. Kinda resembles Jacob Isreal being used. Most preaching I have heard in southern Appalachia on this is the revelation-judgement tares,weeds being those who dont accept Christ and Wheat the remnant Christians, Church... I see deeper now, that passage does have that meaning, alot of firey old fashioned shoutin' preacher probably used it that way. But, I just now got a deeper meaning... like some of you posted weeds and wheat in us... yes... We all still sin even though we try as Christians to do our best. Do what I hate as Apostle Paul says. I just got an image of We,the Church, as the moment of Christ returning for us, his bride. The scriptures tell us we will all face the mercy seat of judgement, and what isn't any good will be burned up, and what is left is what is good in sight of God and then the trophey's and crown given...the we are escorted in to the Lamb's supper (which by the way is way better than Red Lobster or Olive garden!) and we see the Lamb that was worthy to be slain and we lay the crowns and trophey's at his feet! WOW moment here...I just hope I have enough wheat to have at least one trophy to lay at Christ feet... I have an aunt who is independent baptist she talks about those who will get into heaven but have no trophy's, I guess the backslider??? I know there will be no tears in heaven---but would be sad regret like let Christ down, with no trophy or crown to lay down??? just some ramblings here....I think I got a beginning on what to preach on though now...work on it some more...Pastor Mary In OHIO
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 17:52:11
what about that 'throwing into fire' stuff? Did God really mean it? It seems to me that this parable is parallel with Islamic thought in that there will be a measuring out. In other words, it seems to me that Jesus is saying that good and bad will be separated.
As already mentioned, as human beings we are both 'saint' and 'sinner'. How can we pray for a God of justice. Aren't we all as bad as we are good. If we point the finger at the weeds, praying that God will deal with them harshly, aren't we also condemning ourselves.
I remember in seminary asking if all people will one day stand before God and give an accounting of our lives. The professor was hesitant to answer directly, but said that Christ's death on the cross covered all sins. There was nothing anyone could do to be cast out.
But I pressed further and asked if a rapist, who was never brought to justice in this world, would he/she be accountable to God? The professor continued to stand her ground and say that Christ's death covered it all. What about the woman/man who prayed for justice. Did she lose out. Was she being ignored by God? Was she a victim twice? And why not simply live a life of sin if there is no accountability?
My professor spoke to me the gospel. She said, "that the rapist, when he or she died would stand before God and the sin would be revealed. But God's love and mercy would be so great that God would teach him/her how to love once again. The poor raped victim would also be blessed by learning how to forgive. In the end, the gospel of love and forgiveness would be shown to all"
a new pastor on the Jersey Shore.
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 19:24:32
A Sunflower in the middle of a Thistle field...
Here is one...
I had Earl's prayer service tonight... he was 89 years young...his Great-Grand daughter wrote the following and even read it tonight...
Ashley, a great grand-daughter of Earl who died wrote these words in her diary the day he died (Sunday)... she asked if it was OK to read it tonight, she did and it was GREAT! Here is what she said.... keep in mind... she's 8 years old... the theology is pretty good too, don't you think...
I was going to re-type for the Memorial Service tomottow... decided, since I typed it I might as well share it with you all. Enjoy...
Here is what she said...
The Story about My Grandpa
by Ashley Age 8
My grandpa was a great grandpa - the thing is he tried being that great grandpa. he watched movies with me he had lunch with me but most important thing is he loved me. I slept over there I played there but now I can't do that but what I can do is think about how we loved each other. Every day I went to the hospital. my mom cancled my chello lessons because I wanted to be wth him. When the next baby is born when it grows up I will ask it/ do you know hwo my favorite person was it was grandpa Earl. We were together on the 4th of July, christmas, my Birthday, and the weeks and weekends. When we went to grandma Lowla's grave we put flowers on it and when I go to yours I will do the same thing. Everyone loved you so did I. The cat Bu-Bu (Buba) brought your shirt with her now she nows you'r sprit is with her. You loved church and I loved the bible we were mostly the same and alike so what I'm basicly trying to say is thank you and good-bye.
Ashley Age 8 (I left her spelling just as she wrote it out) ;?)
Good stuff of healing eh? Surely the presence of the Lord was in "that" place tonight...
Blessings,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 04:47:15
Amazing Grace! How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now I'm found; was blind, but now I see. It appears that there was a plant that looked like wheat called darnel and you couldn't tell it from wheat until it heads out. Aren't we like that? We all have a few tares (darnel) in us and God waits patiently for us to head out, to see what we will become, before He separates us? Now that's Amazing Grace! Just pondering. Harrell in Texas
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 07:06:17
A new pastor on the Jersey Shore writes about a professor who stated “that Christ's death on the cross covered all sins. There was nothing anyone could do to be cast out.”
This statement is the beginning of universalism and the “seed” for the irrelevance of the Church. The purpose of the church is to bear the message of salvation and means of grace to a dying world. If Christ’s death covers all, then there is no purpose in call to repentance or proclamation or prayers for intervention because, “there’s nothing anyone can do to be cast out.”
One could reject God and his Son. This has always happened and always will. I know many people who have had “near-death” experiences. They pretend they are going to change direction in their lives, but time soon reveals they don’t mean it.
So, if one rejects God and Christ, what will God do? Force himself on that individual? Overpower that person? Take away their ability for indivdual decsion? To do so would put God into the same role a rapist assumes over a victim. If God has to force one into salvation, is it salvation?
Who cares? If we’re all going to be there regardless what we do and how we live, we as the church are to be the most pitied when we speak of life and death, sin and grace. We are bringing a dead message to a living world.
“They will call the foolish wise…”
Worried about the people we mislead…
Unsigned for now….
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 07:21:40
a new pastor on the Jersey Shore,
I don't believe your professor got it quite right. Yes, the mercy of God can cover all sins, but it doesn't if we refuse it. I'm not sure how God will work after we die, but there are several passages in the Bible that promise punishment for the unrepentent sinner. We are to be of the same mind as Jesus Christ, and that does mean holding the gospel out to the rapist (and the sinner in ourselves, too), in this life most especially. But if that person refuses, we can't claim certain salvation for that person.
God can offer forgiveness beyond the grave. Of that I am certain. Whether God will, is up to God, and we (including your professor) can't tie God's hands and say that God will automatically forgive.
Michelle
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 07:47:23
Unsigned for now,
Be firm in your faith, you have made excellent points in you posting.
Michelle
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 08:08:23
Michelle offered, "God can offer forgiveness beyond the grave. Of that I am certain. Whether God will, is up to God, and we (including your professor) can't tie God's hands and say that God will automatically forgive."
I agree 100% but would add that we similarly "cannot tie God's hands and say that God will automatically [condemn]."
It isn't up to us! That's why when, as frequently happens in Bible study, people will put me on the spot with the "what happens after we die -- what about Hitler" question my response is almost always "I don't know. I hope that forgiveness is available to Hitler because that means it is available to a sinner like me, too." That's all we have - hope - not sure knowledge of what will happen between us (or anybody else) and God. It's God's call!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 08:14:34
Well ... now that I think about it...
I think we can say that "God will automatically forgive."
What we cannot say is that "God will automatically grant salvation."
Forgiveness has already and is always offered. The question is whether the sinner accepts the forgiveness through repentance.
God will not force God's forgiveness upon us; it must be freely accepted. If it is rejected, so to is redemption and atonement.
What I'm not sure of is whether God will then toss the unrepentant refuser-of-forgiveness into the everlasting fire .... or will God patiently await and gently prod the unrepentant ... ? This is where I have a problem reconciling the "burning the tares" image with the assurance I feel of God's eternal mercy.
OK ..'nuff of that.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 10:51:48
add no words on scripture message self explanatory
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 11:56:53
I think this parable is a challenge to many of our 'comfort' sermons I hear so many preachers preach (including myself). In other words, I think there is the constant temptation for us to make people feel good on Sunday morning, and so very few (with the exception of some evangelicals) call people to repentance.
I guess we have learned the lesson throughout history of what can happen when we scare people into believing. It just doesn't work. People don't respond well to intimidation, and I don't think that is what the gospel is all about. In fact, even as sinners God came to us in love.
Now, let's imagine there is a human being that is a terrible sinner. You choose the sin. This person is given opportunity after oppurtunity to repent, but continues to choose sin over freedom. Eventually this person will die. According to Christian belief this person will one day stand before God.
The message of the gospel is love and forgiveness. As a Protestant I believe that this love and forgiveness is not of my doing, but God's doing. Isn't anything that we do but God's Grace a work? Including all of our prayers, words, and actions?
So how do we get around this? Scripture has much to say on this subject. We know that Paul made clear in his letters that unrepentant sinners will face doom. Our scripture this Sunday speaks of a seperation of good and bad. So how do we explain this to our parishioners and uphold the gospel of forgiveness for sinners?
I've often wondered if the Word is so important for us to hear, so that we might in this crazy, evil world know and learn of God's love. It is not a bank account that will one day be cashed in, it is a reminder and a path of recognition.
I mean that the unrepentant sinner will never recognize God's love. He/She will one day die and will find it impossible to distinguish between God's love and God's wrath. The one who listened to God's Word (and I don't mean followed it perfectly) but recognized it,if even for a split second their whole life time, will immediately recognize the Truth in heaven.
Some will fall away. Some will be burned (and I think this is an image to satisfy the inability to explain the kingdom in human words.) But let's not be literalists here. It perpetuates false theology.
a new pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 12:47:12
You guys are making me think of C.S. Lewis, especially "The Great Diorvce". In "The Great Diorvce" Lewis has Hell in a temporary state of transition. The residents can take a bus every morning to heaven until the end. Hell is colored in deeping shades of gray and in the end all will be dark. What appeared to the narrator a great chasm was only a small crack in the ground of heaven. Eventually even this will disappear.
What happens to the damned? If God is the author of all life and one turns away from God the end seems to be annihilation - a ceasing to be, or maybe, a hyperbolic diminishing - ever closer to zero but never quite nothing.
Pace e Bene - Deke in Texas
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 13:20:32
Someone said to me earlier in the week how when the heat comes to their garden it is only the weeds in the lawn that seem to stay green - the grass starts to fade to yellow, and that she keeps the weeds in the garden for that reason. I was reminded of something I read in a book recently quoting someone else (sorry to be vague...) talking about the poeple in our congregations that wind everyone up - the people that spark off everyone and poeple cmplain abpout having negative experiences of (you know the ones), and how they were like the grit in the oyster shell that rubs the pearl to its beauty. Neat analogy - in my musings for Sunday I keep coming back to these two images of grit making pearls and the weeds making the lawn look greener. I'm moving towards a link to this parable but it still looks hazy.
SC, UK
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 13:47:38
A couple of things. First the wheat and the weeds. I had a woman in my first church that I would have like to have weeded out! She was obnoxious and horrible. The whole church received a reputation because of her. People would say, "Oh, that's the church where @#$%^ goes!" I guess this scripture says to me, "Just what damage would I have caused had I tried to get rid of her?" It is God who is the judge. There were those who could overlook her nastiness. I had a rough time doing that.
I really am not a literalist and have wondered, "Could God be so gracious as to welcome everyone into heaven in spite of ourselves?" This is a difficult scripture. We are called on to accept or reject God's gift of salvation. Can we do that beyond death??? Jesus did preach to those in hell after his crucifixion, so some say. And what of being in limbo as some Roman Catholics believe. Could we buy a loved one's way out of purgatory? Could we pray them out and into heaven? I tend to think that when we die, time has run out. I believe that there is a heaven and hell - divine reward or punishment based upon how we have lived this life.
By the way, here is a wonderful joke told in Jan Karon's new book, "In This Mountain." Her books are wonderful by the way. All about an Episcopal priest. You need to read them in order.
A preacher died, don't you know, an' was a-waitin in line at th' Pearly Gates. Ahead of 'im is a feller in blue jeans, a leather jacket, 'an a tattoo on 'is arm. Saint Pete says to th' feller with th' tattoo, says, 'Who are you, so I'll know whether t' let you in th' Kingdom of Heaven?"
"Feller says, 'I'm Tom Such an' Such, I drove a taxi cab in New York City.' Saint Pete looks at the' list, says, "Take this silk robe and gold staff an' enter th' Kingdom of Heaven!' Then he hollers, 'Next!'
Th' preacher steps up, sticks out 'is chest, says, "I'm Rev'rend Jimmy Lee Tapscott, pastor of First Baptist Church f'r forty-three years." Saint Pete looks at 'is list, don't you know, says, 'Take this floursack robe an' hick'ry stick an' enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Preacher says, 'Wait a dadjing minute! That man was a taxicab driver an' he gits a silk robe an' a gold staff?' Saint Pete says, 'When you preached, people slept. When he drove, people prayed.'" Page 219
PH in OH
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 15:22:30
Most of our recent discussion on this text seems to assume that "final judgment" is a reference to some linear, historical reality, a point out there in the future somewhere. In fact, the New Testament's references to the "end of time" make more sense, and are more consistent, when thought of in terms of "realized eschatology"--wherein "end" refers to the ultimate goal or hope of God's intent for our lives, not the terminus of history. That is, the "final judgment" is occurring constantly in the court of heaven. Thus, every day, every moment stands under condemnation if it finds us further from God's reign; but, by the same token, every day, every moment is full of possibility for the in-breaking, or out-break, of the Kingdom of God in our world through our lives. It is the content of our earthly lives in this world, not the outcome of our heavenly lives in the next world that seems of greatest interest to the scriptures.
In that light, we can speak of the purging and weeding of the field as something that is ongoing--a process that is not fun at all and can even be burningly painful. How better can we account for those unwelcome discomforts in our lives that we bring upon ourselves than by claiming that the Lord of harvest is at work to overcome the enemy's wiles? And, best of all, in the alchemy of grace, even weeds can become wheat.
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 15:25:18
Previous post from
TK in OK
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 19:32:15
Maybe there is some comfort here, too. The world is full of "weeds," and they will continue to prickle us and annoy us and tempt us to become like them. Is it not a wonderful word of grace that says we don't have to remove all those who don't quite "measure up?" especially since we don't have the definitive measuring stick that belongs only to God? We don't have to remove ourselves from our families and go to live in monasteries or convents. Remembering the posting earlier that mentioned conversion, where would the mission be if there were no "weeds?"
Michelle
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 19:33:44
Add to the above, should not the promise that the "weeds" will be burned urge us to share the story, so that they, too, can come to faith?
Michelle
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 22:21:59
A while back I read James Patterson's book, "Cradle and All." It was a bizare book, but it came back to me as I read this chapter. In the book, a former nun turned PI was hired by the vatican to investigate two virgin births. It was believed that one was born of God, and the other of the devil. By the end of the book, the nun/PI was to attend one of he births. She was to look in the face of the child and decide immediately whose child it was. As the time of birth rapidly approached, the nun restled with the question, "How will I know?"
It seems to me with all the craziness in our world right now, we seem to think we can easily identify the children of the evil one, but scripture tells us clearly that we cannont know.
I don't know what, if anything, I will do with this, but I thought I'd put it out for you to chew on. JRinBigD
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 04:57:11
A note in my bible identifies the weed as darnel- a poisonous weed. Darnel is in the rye grass family and it is thought that the toxicity is not in the seed but is cause by a fungus that darnel is susceptible. This fungus is one of the ergots which are alleged to have caused the hysteria at Salem, MA, leading to the witch trials.
LSD is a modified ergot derivative. This is in line with the symptoms of darnel poisoning – intoxication, hallucination, stupor and in some cases death. The fungus consumes the seed in the head, leaving in its place a seed that is really the fungus with all its toxic effects.
I don't know how any of you might use this, but I thought it important to know that the weed not only mimics the grain but consuming the seeds of the darnel is dangerous.
Pace e Bene – Deke in TX
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 05:55:40
a new pastor on the Jersey Shore writes: "...let's not be literalists here. It perpetuates false theology."
My question is: What exactly are you referring to as "false theology?" I read your post and the others several times and wasn't clear on what you're condemning.
Next, it strikes me that we look at this text from the point of view of the wheat (naturally) and we are cautioned that the wheat and the weed are difficult to discern one from another. Imagine how much more difficult it is for the weeds. Do the weeds look over the field and contemplate to themselves, "I see no difference?"
Do those outside the church see or expereince any difference between themselves and those in the church. If we were to survey the social circles of our parishnors, how many of thier friends or acquaintances would know of thier (our parishnors')Christian faith?
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 08:25:59
Or as the old joke goes: "If being a Christian was a crime would there be enough evidence to convict you?"
susan in sanpedro
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 12:18:57
We in the church often judge whether someone is wheat or weed. Perhaps in this story the flip side is also true. Can the world tell whether we in the church are more wheat or weed? I think the story asks alot of interesting ?'s. Are the weeds growing to make us more Christlike? vvicars
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 12:35:59
Eric, that whole question surrounding Hitler and God's judgement and forgiveness comes up from time to time in Bible Study as a way of understanding that when one dies, it is not up to me to make a judgement when conducting the funeral service, but is to trust and hope that even in that moment of death, anyone can see God and ask for forgiveness. Invariably it comes up, does that work for a Hitler too? An interesting question when we consider Hitler's "reign" as an example of the ultimate in evil. Some very interesting thoughts this week. Right now, I can thoroughly understand the comment on how the weeds keep the lawn looking green. It has been hot and dry, but today we are getting some rain. Hopefully it will be enough. I even went outside in my bathing suit and just let it rain on me. It was beautiful though the sight for anybody else wouldn't have been. Anyway, I have shied away from this parable simply because of the tendency we have to use it to separate the so-called "righteous" from "those others." But consider this quote I found a number of years ago: "A weed is just an unloved flower." At a former pastoral charge, I know there was some grumbling because I hadn't cut the grass around the manse for awhile. The reason for this was that my family and I were enjoying the brilliant orange beauty of a wildflower called devil's paintbrush that gloriously filled our lawn. That beauty wasn't unworthy of my attention or useless in its purpose. The beauty of those flowers enhanced our enjoyment in an area where the warmth of summer was short. It seems that God, the patient gardener, it saying to us to wait and see before making judgements. I like another interpretation from "The Whole People of God" resource, that suggests "that neither plant or weed represents individual people here, but rather that each one of us is a garden, producing both good and bad. In this context God patiently waits for us to discern between the competing forces within ourselves as God nurtures us through our cycles of growth." God bless each one of you as together we seek to discern God's word for our day. Rev. Tim, Ontario, Canada
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 13:01:51
In putting together my outline for the sermon, I noticed that this parable is a "mini-retelling" of our salvation history. God sowed the good seed (creation), but then an enemy sows weeds (enter sin, via serpent and fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil/"apple"). We begin to notice that there is sin in the world, but wonder how could it be if God is good, (where did these weeds come from?) Still chewing on the apple, we want to decide who is wheat/chosen and who is weed/outcast, not realizing that it is all tangled up in each of us. It isn't up to us to separate the harvest into good and evil before it is time for the harvest. When our time of harvest comes, the weed is weeded out, the chaff is blown away, and the good enters into the kingdom, for nothing impure may come before the throne of God.
From the standpoint of the justice of God, we are all weeds/sinners; yet by the grace of Jesus Christ, there is hope for the weeds! Only Christ is wheat/good, and we may be baptized into his death so that we may be raised into his life, and be counted as wheat.
OLAS
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 18:32:19
To the Pr del. in IA,
I'm sorry for my lack of clarity. I come to this room in the middle of the day when I should be attending other matters. So I wasn't quite clear.
My point was that we shouldn't fall into the old paradigm of heaven and hell. I do believe that union between human and God is heaven. But I don't believe that God keeps score and casts to hell all those that fail to believe. This was what I learned in Sunday School and hopefully have matured in my faith to understand it isn't correct.
As theologians we know that the Hebrew scriptures contain many examples of symbolic metaphor in order to express what the supernatural looks like. For instance, God is sometimes referred to as a 'jealous lover'. This doesn't mean that God is a jealous lover, but the reader understands from his/her own experience what it is like to be such a person. The author was trying to express the feelings and emotions God has when people stray away from worshipping God. It was never meant to be taken literally.
If we say that this parable is eschatological in nature, which it is, we can fall into the temptation of explaining it as heaven and hell. Most parishioners conjure up all sorts of images in their minds when they think of heaven and hell. Heaven is lovely, and hell is a place of fire and torment. So Middle Ages!
I tend to believe that hell is a bit different. Yes, we are all given free will in this world. Some choose to be receptive to God and others do not. I suppose what scripture is telling us is that if we die and have not acknowledged God we will live eternally without peace, assurance, and comfort. Since some have not learned of God's love on earth, when they die they will not recognize it after death as well. The one who turned away will not be able to distinguish between God's love or wrath.
My arguement is that so many of us preachers (and I know I am guilty of this) want to grow churches and please people, that we make even the tough and challenging parables sound cute and easy. I am a faithful Christian who tries to follow God's will and I will admit even I am not sure what God is saying in this paprable. But I am sure that God is warning us all that there will one day be a measuring out. Should we not warn our parishioners?
But how many of us will do this on Sunday?
A new pastor on the Jersey Shore
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 20:14:45
I know, I'm on the wrong link - I posted this on the Genesis text, but, my extravert personality thought, this is good enough to share! Enjoy... ;?)
A new version of an old song...
"We are climbing Jacob's Beanstalk... "We are climbing Jacob's Bean Stalk... "We are climbing Jacob's Bean Stalk.... Fe fi, fo fi, fum!" ;?)
Sermon title... "Jake and the Beanstalk!"
With grins,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 08:20:43
Last night as I was reading the parable again I was struck by the line:
"...at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
Collect the weeds first? Maybe I want to be "Left Behind!"
Pr del in Ia
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 10:27:14
So many of us seek clarity in our lives. We hunger for absolutes. Security is our god. It always difficult to live with ambiguity. We want things black and white. There has to be good people (wheat) and bad people (weeds). We cann't decide who is who. It is difficult for so many of us to live this way. We move toward literalistic and fundamental churches to "know" the "answers" to all questions. Our politics gives us the plateform to "scream" out the "truth" to others. And yet we are like those in Plato's cave only seeing images on the back wall and pointing to them as real and true. From where I sit they may "look" like weeds or they may "look" like wheat. I must learn to be patient for one or two things to happen. I can wait until the harvest when all things will be known to God; or I can wait until I am gradually drawn away from the images toward the heat and brightness of the sun in order to behold the truth that in the present I still do not know.
tom in ga
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 19:19:39
For your consideration and comment: The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a child who goes on a walk with his mother, and during the walk gathers for her a handful of dandelions from a field. When it is time for the child’s first grade class to celebrate Mother’s Day, he recites for her the poem that he has written. “I was walking in a field one day when I saw some flowers that spelled your name, M-O-M-M-Y. I picked them for you and you said thank you. I love you, Mommy.” And at the end of the age the fire did not burn as brightly, because the dandelions were no longer weeds. KB in WA
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 01:44:12
I'm coming to this a bit late, and I confess that I haven't read the other contributions yet ... but I just wanted to mention a book that has grabbed me ... KIngdom, Grace and Judgment, by Robert Farrar Capon. It is in fact, his three books on the parables in one volume published by Eerdmans.
Briefly ... he makes the point about this parable that it is a parable of the kingdom that we have turned into a parable of judgment. We are (like the servants in the parable) obsessed with where evil comes from and what God is going to do about it ... Jesus' answer is 'let it be'. The word he uses for let is also the root of one of the words for forgiveness - aphete. Farrar is thought provoking and definitely worth a read ...
Rev Ev in Bev UK
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 03:52:21
Some 20 years ago, I had a beautfiful (to my eyes) VW beetle (bug for those in the US).I had just had it welded, and painted it in household gloss, in red, blue and yellow. I was very proud of it! One day, we were invited by an old friend to go out for a meal in the East end (of London). WE had a great chinese meal, but towards the end, a waiter came in to announce that someone had hit a car outside. It was my beetle, now wrapped around a lampost, with the culprit nowhere to be seen.
We reported it to the police and our friends towed us honme. Later that night, I had a call from the police to say that they had stopped a man in a car for drunk driving, and had found particles of red yellow and blue paint on his car! They had caught him. I was pleased, but my joy was soon turned to sorrow and anger when I learned that he had no insurance. I tried taking him through the courts, and he was issued with an order to pay me ... but he never did. It took me some years to let go. I wanted justice, I wanted the wrong to be righted, but it wasn't. I needed to let the whole thing go in case it got a hold of me.
A fairly minor example, but it struck me that many people carry around with them much more serious situations that they cannot release to God. Anger, unforgiveness etc ... much of it to do with the tares of life ... Lord why did you allow this ... why don't you do something.
In our churches, we almost certainly have situations that have put one member against another, and we have people who hold grudges and unforgiveness for many years.
Maybe this parable gives us an opportunity to do some letting go ...
Rev Ev in Bev UK
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 06:12:11
For what it's worth (from a truly desperate preacher!)... I've been watching this discussion all week and wrestling mightily with this parable. Worrying with questions of justice and ignoring evil. And being "in the world but not of it." A possible illustration comes to mind from my background in science. Maybe the world is like the atmosphere. The air we breathe in contains only 21% oxygen (almost all the rest - 78% - is nitrogen, which we don't need). Our bodies take what is needed (the oxygen) and the air we breathe out contains (besides the carbon dioxide we need to get rid of) all the nitrogen (78%) we took in. I'm toying with the idea that, even though we live "in" the world ... where evil certainly exists ... we don't have to take that evil into our lives, any more than our bodies have to keep the unnecessary nitrogen. (Haven't completely worked this out yet ... as I said, this week at least, I'm a TRULY desperate preacher!) -- Anitra in NY
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 08:03:16
Y'all oughta read my friend Molly Wolf's meditation on "tares" (she does a really fine job explicating the "poison rye grass" information).
The URL is http://justus.anglican.org/sabbath-blessings/1999/sb43.html
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 12:20:26
2:12 here Saturday afternoon, so not many may see this posting, but here goes anyway.
Is it possible to give another meaning to this parable than the one Jesus gives, or is that sacriligious?
He says the field is the world, and the good seed the children of the kingdom, and the weeds the children of the evil one.
I wonder if the field could be me, and the good seed the word of God, and the bad seed the temptations for evil. The good which I do is the fruit borne of the good seed. The bad which I do is the fruit borne of the bad seed. I can do my best to nurture the good, and not the bad, but I cannot root out the bad seed no matter how hard I try.
In the end, God's angels do it for me. The bad is uprooted from me and burned with fire so that it can never return. Then the righteous that remains will cause me to shine like the sun (or like the Son) in the kingdom of God!
It might be dangerous to give a new meaning to that which Jesus has already defined, so I'm not sure I'll run with this... but I might.
Michelle
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 12:24:43
Who Can Judge?
Grace and Peace to you from our Lord Jesus Christ....
A minister dies and he’s waiting in line at the Pearly Gates... Ahead of him is a guy who's dressed in dirty jeans, a leather jacket, and has tattoos all over his body...
Saint Peter says to the guy, "Who are you, so that I may know whether or not to admit you into the Kingdom of Heaven?" ...The guy replies, "I'm Tony Pizano, a taxi-driver from New York City."...
Saint Peter looks at his list, smiles and says to him, "Take this silken robe and golden staff and you may enter the Kingdom of Heaven."...The taxi-driver goes into Heaven with his silken robe and golden staff, and it's now the minister's turn...
The minister stands proud and booms out in a loud voice, "I am William Snow, pastor of Saint Luke’s Lutheran Church for the last forty-three years."... Saint Peter looks at his list and says to the minister, "Take this cotton robe and wooden staff and you may enter the Kingdom of Heaven."...
"Wait, just a minute," says the minister. "That man was a taxi-driver and he gets a silken robe and golden staff... How can this be? ...Why am I only getting a cotton robe and a wooden staff?"
"Well, up here, we work by results," says Saint Peter... "When you preached, people slept; when he drove...people prayed!"
Well, in the time that I have with you today I want to talk to you about the judgments we all make... the things that we call good or evil...
Now, in case you haven’t noticed, we’re now living in a time that has often been referred to as being post-modern... now the post-modern paradigm stretches the imagination in all areas of technology, scientific and religious thought, and it even challenges all of the assumptions that have been made on such things that we label as good and evil....
The average young person active in the academic world today will straightforwardly say that there is no such thing as ‘good’ or ‘evil’... there are only in-betweens... there are things that we all disagree with or wish didn’t exist, but according to the post-modern mind, there is nothing that can be clearly labeled as ‘good’ or ‘evil’...
Perhaps you can think of nothing that sounds more ludicrous than the absence of a label that clearly marks quality... We would all have a few things that we could think of that would easily be classified as evil... give us a few moments and we might even add some names to that list... but today’s thinkers want to hold us accountable... they want us to look back at history and think of how these labels have been murderous...how our deciding what is good and what is evil can destroy innocent people...
A good example was learned in World War II... we all know the story of what happened in Germany... we’ve all seen the pictures of what can happen when a whole group of people are classified as being evil... because of a label millions of people were killed...
And what about calling something good... what is it that you find good?... Some of us enjoy the comforts of wealth... while the workers who have made these comforts have worked long hours for little pay, sometimes earning enough for a bowl of rice... some corporate stockholders have found plenty of money through unjust trade that has allowed them to live the good life, while others have lost their entire retirement savings... there are things that are good for some, but not good for all...
The point is that in today’s world... with the amount of information we all receive at the touch of a button, there’s no denying that trying to figure out what is good and what is evil has become even more difficult than ever before... and both, it seems, grow together...
In our reading from the gospel of Matthew, we read one of Jesus’ parables... in it Jesus told a simple parable that illustrates the Day of Judgment... This story was designed to be familiar to people who depended on agriculture for a living... It says that a farmer planted good seed in a field.... But under cover of night, an enemy came in and planted weeds... and at first no one noticed... at first no one could distinguish between the good seed and the bad seed...
Now, I’ve read that there was a common weed in Palestine called ‘darnel‘, which was also a common curse for farmers... In its early stages it looks just like the wheat... But when both had "headed out" or produced seeds up top of the plant, the two could be distinguished only by color... At harvest the darnel had to be separated from the good grain because its seeds were slightly poisonous...
Now the parable continues with the farm hands coming to the owner and asking, "Do you want us to pull these weeds?"... but the owner says “no,".... "because if you try, you might damage the grain in the process.... Let the weeds alone.... and at harvest time we will separate the two." ...
you see, this is a parable that is revealing the nature of God... and it says, “that the one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man”... the sower could have immediately pulled the weeds out of the ground, but instead he allowed it to grow together... he was a patient farmer... just as God is patient even with those who do terrible things, even with those who make mistakes, even with those who fail to do His will on earth... and God is patient - even with us...
we know that Jesus came into this world for the sinner... hoping to bring back those who were lost... hoping to give comfort to the sick... hoping to shed light on the darkness... and hoping to turn weeds into wheat...
Martin Luther once said that all of us are both ‘saint’ and ‘sinner’... all of us have our good sides... all of us have things about us that are special, beautiful, loving, and good... but we also all have the side of ourselves that has not been weeded out... that we hide away from the world... and sometimes we even hide from ourselves...
it’s easy for us to look around and find the weeds in others... perhaps some of us think that if we removed some from the world we would all live better lives... maybe some of us believe that if we just removed the weeds from our community there would be fewer problems... and, I’m sure, a few of you would like to see some weeds removed from the church...
But none of us have been given the role of the farmer... we are only God’s hired hands... it is not our place to judge others... in fact the Bible reminds us in Matthew 7:1, “do not judge, so that you may not be judged... For with the judgment you make, you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.”...
Even in what appears to be weeds, it is true that God can see some wheat... in what appears to be evil, God sees that still there is still some good... we know that God does not ignore violence and injustice... he does not ignore the wrongs he sees in his church in the present day, but this parable is a reminder that the hired hands do not have the ability to judge in others what is wheat, and what is a weed... that was never our job...
instead our job is to prune away the weeds that grow in our own lives... and to have faith that one day God will eradicate all sources of evil... to believe in a place far greater than the world we find ourselves living in today... to hold onto the hope that God’s love and mercy might forever surround us and keep us safe... and to prepare ourselves for the great harvest that will surely come...
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 12:31:52
Wow!
After I posted the previous, I went to the link Eric gave us from Molly Wolf, and saw that she says what I said (and a lot more). Worth the read. Thanks Eric.
Michelle
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 15:20:11
A New Pastor on the Jersey Shore,
I enjoyed your posting. Thank you.
Michelle
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 16:09:35
Wow!
After I posted the previous, I went to the link Eric gave us from Molly Wolf, and saw that she says what I said (and a lot more). Worth the read. Thanks Eric.
Michelle
Date: 11/13/2004
Time: 9:28:34 AM
who is the son of man, what is his name/and or full name, is he an entity and is his name anderson estime?