27 Apr 1999
19:33:11

i am going to preach this on may 2 instead of the 30th, because i won't be preaching on the 30th. i like the translation "as you go" - it takes awaythe putting this off only on missionaries and it bring sit home to everyone of us, and especially the church.

thanks again to all of you. blessings, rachel


14 May 1999
09:13:03

Another chance to preach the Ascension!!!!

The Great Commission stands at the heart of our life as communities of faith; and yet it is the most denied, or passively accepted account in Scripture. Church's have become clubs or welfare societies, but not the place or the womb from which Christian's "are made." We need to recapture our vocation, to respond to God's call, and to be about the ministry of responding to those whom God draw's into the Church.

Peace, tom in ga


21 May 1999
13:14:47

Now the eleven disciples ....

There is a sense of failure, a rupture of community, an estrangement following the crucifixion and resurrection. Judas is no longer one of them. The 12 have become 11. Does this bear any significance for Matthew as he unfolds the commission to baptize?

tom in ga


22 May 1999
12:53:43

In Jesus, we have experienced God as Trinity, and not as monotheistic. To believe in a montheistic God would mean to believe in an unbending, harsh, legalistic God of the Jews, one who would demand sacrifice for sin, etc. Monotheism is grounded in Law and Obedience. The Trinity says basically two things: In Jesus the montheistic God has died, Law has been replaced by love. (another way of stating the same thing is that the God of the Israelites has been revealed to us as the God of love). The second thing it says is that Jesus has taken this harshness upon him in the crucifixion and thus we have been set free to live our lives in the Spirit. If we seek any more of a mental concept we lose the incredible gift that is ours through Christ. This new visionof God: A Singleness of Being and a Unity of Persons opens us to Divine Community and Life. By livng in this Love, we are transformed, and our transformation transforms the world.

tom in ga (sorry to keep noteing!!!)


23 May 1999
14:03:00

Would you believe I have the honor and opportunity to preach on this fabulous text the very same service in which my loving, Christian daughter will confirm her faith and become a member of our church? Isn't God great? That is truly following the Great Commission, which Jesus gave us here. revup


23 May 1999
15:36:39

tom in ga...your commentary thus far is awe inspiring, particularly as it envisions the "unity" and "community" within the Godhead as this relates the relevance of "covenant-making" to the great commission. The transformation within our self-system as disciples/apostles is grounded within a "community-within". This "covenant-community" within reveals that individuals do nor exist in isolation but are the recapitulation/reliving of history from generation to generation. We are deeply connected to the faith stories and/or autobiographical frames of our families from "generation to generation". In an age of future shock when history/culture has been cast into chaos, and our "covenant connectioins" have been disconnected, I believe it imperative to recognize the relation between "baptism" and reliving the sacred history/story it signifies. The spiritual birth of becoming a "New Being" is not disconnected from Moses or Noah or the whole of the sacred story revealed in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The stages of "community-making" in some sense parallel/correlate with the stages of "faith development" in the transformation of the individual. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have less to do with conceptual belief systems (i.e., linguistic theology in the narrow sense) and more to do with the phenomenological processes going on in every human's existence. The "teaching of the Way" cannot be separated from the Trinity, which too often we treat only as a theological construct rather than a "living community-making process". Likewise, too often "baptism" has been "baptism" into an American culture, or a particularized culture, substituting for the innate covenant-culture within the Godhead, a culture that frees one to "become" the innate authentic self one really is where worship is/functions as worship in "spirit and truth". This classical Biblical language of the great commission I believe contains the futuristic revelation/vision of the nature of the Church. This vision transcends the dead bureaucracies based on the factories of the industrial revolution we too often have thought of as the "church". Now is the time to re-group and "covenant/community-make" for the future, to restructure and/or renew and/or reconstruct the Church for the future by baptizing the Nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". If my brain-storming has left you in Babel rather than Pentecost, let me close with the question: Does our scripture for this Trinity Sunday disclose anything in reference to the shape of the future Church? How do we overcome the disconnectedness in our present dead bureaucracies we conceptualize as the Church? Is "baptism", i.e., the great commission, simply a strategy for the "upkeep" of this bureaucracy based on the industrial revoluition model (factory)? Does not baptism, sacred history, and the God vision in our scripture transcend the present predicament at least I experience the church to be in today? PaideiaSCO


24 May 1999
09:25:29

PaideiaSCO: I was taught the KISS principle in seminary. I have found it very successful. I sure hope you do not preach the way you write!


24 May 1999
09:53:38

PaideiaSCO,

I would gently suggest that maybe paragraph breaks would help. At least help the reader.

A suggestion,

Rick in Va


24 May 1999
11:09:01

Enough about "form" -- thank you, PaideiaSCO, for a posting with some challenging substance! Yes, indeed, most of us as parish clergy are continually caught in the tension of proclaiming a Gospel that transcends the formulas and containers previous genrations have created to contain their experience of the holy.

On this "Trinity Sunday", I want to focus on how our Trinitarian formulas reveal to us a God who is at the very essence, a being of relationship: and, being created in the image of God, how we are called to be in relationship with the God who created us, redeemed us and inspires us. Susan in SanPedro


24 May 1999
11:38:26

A possible visual aid to illustrate the Trinity ... most of the ones I've come across fall foul of one of the main problems ... they either imply three separate beings (like the clover leaf idea) or fail to distinguish between the three persons of the trinity. BUT .... (and as they say in Australia - everything befoire th BUT is bull .... ) What about a flame Look at the flame ... the flame is actually ... Burning OIL ( you can’t see it) The flame is light ...You can see it The flame is hot ... we can feel it ..

Same with God... The Father is the flame .... burning oil, the source of it all, invisible The Son is the flame .... revealing, shedding light The Spirit is the flame ... bringing warmth

God creator, saviour, lifegiver.

Rev Ev in Bev England.


24 May 1999
13:00:54

Re:Trinity Sunday images. I like the flame. I have used the image for the Trinity that I am a son to my mother, I am a father to my children but I am a Pastor to my congregation. I am one person, seen in three functions or as three persons by three separate sets of people. ??? revup PS Speaking of Australia, my daughter is there for 5 months as an International Student at MacQuarie. Is she going to come home talking strange like that? Ooops, I mean different.


24 May 1999
13:23:32

This Sunday is the day before Memorial Day. Is anyone planning on committing at least a part of the service as a recognition of this day of remembrance? Is there a way in which it can be tied with Trinity Sunday? I certainly cannot think of a way. I realize, of course, that Memorial Day is not a part of the Church calendar; yet, something inside tells me this should be remembered somehow. So far, I'm considering using the prayer in the UM Book of Worship towards the beginning of the service. Any other comments or suggestions? Joe in OH


24 May 1999
15:34:09

PaideiaSCO

You raise interesting issues. My sense is that we live in a post-Christian culture, and therefore the issues around Baptism are great. What are we trying to do with this sacrament? Indeed, the Roman Catholic process of Adult Initiation is the way for all of us who take the sacraments seriously. And even that process is perhaps not long enough in order to draw the newly baptized into a new culture, a new creation.

tom in ga


24 May 1999
17:15:42

Did anyone notice how "some of them doubted", but they still received the same instruction to "go and make disciples of all nations..." Jesus did not separate the people who had doubts. Maybe that is because they did not separate themselves. They all received the angel's instruction from Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:7) and they all went where they had been sent by the women's directions. They all saw the risen Christ and they all immediately worshiped Him. But we are told that some doubted. Jesus must have known this, but he commissioned the doubters as well. Why? How on earth could they be effective teachers if they had doubts? Do you think this is to help us understand that even among the faithful remaining 11 disciples and even in the presence of the risen Christ, doubts are possible. This did not interfere with Christ's ability to work through the people who had doubts. I'm thinking that the last sentence in the Gospel of Matthew, "I am with you always to the end of the age," might be the answer. It is certainly a PROMISE. It is a promise doubters can still cling to when they are following the guidance of Christ through experiences they don't understand. Perhaps this kind of "doubting, but persistant faith," has something powerful to teach. DL.


24 May 1999
19:45:12

Wow! Only Monday and already a lively discussion. Tom in Ga – your description of monotheism vs. Trinity sounds like Marcion to me, unless I didn’t read you correctly. The Jewish God is our God. John 1:1 or the description of Jesus in Colossians 1 states that Jesus was God from the beginning. So the harsh “Jewish” God was from the beginning Father, Son, Spirit. We can talk about covenants changing, but not God, and certainly not an OT vs. NT God. But again, perhaps I didn’t read it as you intended? I would suggest the Trinity is a mystery to be believed rather than a problem to be solved. All our examples fall short because we are talking about the great mystery of the God head. Perhaps God’s word to Job is the starting place for preachers – Who is this who darkens my council without knowledge? PaideiaSCO – the shape of the church – that is the invisible church - has always been the same and has never needed reinventing. The church is made up of those who bear the name of Christ and because they are claimed by Him are moved to participate in His mission to feed the sick, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, heal the sick and proclaim freedom for the captive, good news to the poor – or in the words of the OT prophet to love justice, act with mercy, and walk humbly with God. No matter how the “church” has failed in the past this has always been the call and the mission. Rev. Phil in TX


25 May 1999
01:40:15

I can't believe some good United Methodist has not jumped on the statement about even the doubters sharing Christ with others. While I am not 100% totally convinced verses 17 and 19 mean even the doubters were given the Great Commission to spread the Gospel before they had faith, there is a great John Wesley story here.

John came home from a disasterous missionary trip to America under charges, for refusing Holy Communion to a woman (Sophie) who dropped him for another man. During the ocean vouage there were terrible storms. While John Wesley saw fearing for his life, the Moravians aboard the ship sang praises to God and celebrated. They had total assurance of their salvation, while Wesley worried about IF he was saved. They told Wesley "Preach the faith until you have it." He did find the faith and assurance of salvation when his "heart was strangely warmed" in his Aldersgate salvation experience. I preached a sermon on that recently, and Methodists can too often relate to that preaching the faith until you have it. I posted part of that sermon on the sermon review site, if you are interested. revup


25 May 1999
05:37:21

Revup, I'm not 100% sure that "having doubts" is the same thing as "not yet having faith". I'm thinking that for, at least some of us, doubts are an integral part of our faith journey. Some doubt does not make SOME CERTAINTY impossibe. Surely they can co-exist. I think Jesus is showing us that in the commissioning. We tend to want to erase doubt. Maybe Jesus is saying, "Work with it!" I've always loved the story of Wesley and the Moravians. See what connections Jesus used doubt to weave! DL. I'll go read the sermon part you submitted. love in Christ.


25 May 1999
07:16:20

Another Trinity image for kids...and on that is intellectually compelling for adults:

Ice -- steam -- water (all three can be at hsnd, with a little plannig). Same substance, 3 different forms, causing three different sensations in/on our bodies. We can also remind folks that the entire physical world is "built" this way--all the elements in the Periodic Table can exist (sometimes at great extremes of temp and pressure), in these three forms. Ah, enough of the chemistry lesson. Have fun!

Erie Preach-Creach


25 May 1999
07:28:32

Some interesting threads are beginning to weave a cloth in the critical meditative and reflective thoughts shared! For me they may even take the shape and use of a mantle. Could it be hoped that out of this dialogue the mantle of Elijah will emerge? tom, the Christ and Culture question is critical and the work of the Alban institute as well as H. Richard Niebhur's classic "Christ and Culture", I believe, are relevant tools! Also Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolution" as this may disclose the paradigm to the ending of the modern culture and/or worldview and the birth of a post-modern frame. My question concerns whether this present eschatological moment in history is "post-christian" as you suggest or only post-modern. Which worldview is more antithetical to the faith, theology, philosophy, and aesthetics, and quality of life-the modern or the post-modern? The writings of Kuhn, Capra, and others out of the new physics frame would suggest the post-modern worldview is far more appreciative of the religious, mythical, and mystical domain than the past modern worldview. The epistemological issue of "doubt", especially as this foundation was laid by Descarte and Newton for the birth of modernism and it's scientific frame, is not unrelated to the critical issue of "faith and creative doubt" which some have already expressed as having relevance to this scripture. At any rate the relevance of living faith, of the iniation rite of baptism, and the relational/process/Trinitarian vision of God to our autobiographical and collective historical moment are "hounding" me out of this scripture! The Living God who makes divine covenant-making intervention into human consciousness and history empowers disciples/apostle to not only undergo transformation in their self-system but to transform the social/historical organisms they are a part of, including political, economic, education, and religious institutions. Elijah's mantle is needed to strike the waters and have them part for the journey to go on! PaideiaSCO


25 May 1999
07:31:31

I go to the holy place ("the mountain") to worship. And worship I do. I go to the holy palce, to doubt. And doubt I do. They happen together. I worship and I doubt. Maybe they feed on each other, even need each other. All I know is that I praise the most awsesome God, while I try to live with my doubts...most of which are, by the way, more related to the church, its doctrines, its future, than to the reality of God, which I seldom doubt.

So if sometimes we are "lukewarm" in our preaching of this text, maybe it's because we are really living it more than we know. It's the warp and weave of daily life, hardly exciting, but certainly necessary. We make disciples much surer with our day-to-day relationships, our acceptance and tolerance of others, our giving of ourseleves to others in need, than we ever do in preaching at them. We make disciples not with our certainty, but with our persevereance despite our uncertainty, despite and maybe even through our weakness. Which is why the concluding verse is the most important one to me. I am glad Jesus is with me, always, to the end of the age. This I know to be true...or rather, feel beyond rational knowing. And part of it is so personal, it is impossible for me to share...but it empowers sharing. Does this make sense to anyone? Better stop, before I really start rambling.

Barry in OH


25 May 1999
08:38:20

Barry in OH, to me it more than "makes sense". I think you have it exactly. It is the direction this week's sermon is taking for me. DL.


25 May 1999
09:40:25

Do any of you know which is the authentic translation of the Breastplate of St. Patrick?

http://www.coffey.com/~bryan/breastplate.htm or http://www.intcom.net/~tomt/aoh/ohio/armour.html or http://parrot.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/p-20-breastplate.html

I really like the one that goes:

"I bind to myself today through the strong virtue of love, the strong name of the Trinity, by invocation of the same, the three one, one in three."

Will any of your congregations be singing the Breastplate this Sunday?

I just finished reading "How the Irish Saved Civilization" and it helped me realize that St. Patrick and the generations of Christians after him in Ireland took Matthew 28 and the Great Commission to heart. It is amazing how much the faith of one obedient Christian can change the world.

May God be with all of you who have been called to proclaim the Word this Sunday.

Mike Middleton


25 May 1999
10:26:01

DL: YES, YES, YES, you are right. Thank you. There is a tremendous difference between "doubting" and "not having faith!" I do not know of anyone who does not have at least an occasional doubt. In fact, if someone states they do not have doubts, I would not have much faith in them. I guess the point remains God can use those with doubts, and I guess those without faith, as well? Think how God can use those WITH faith! revup


25 May 1999
11:18:05

Mike, our Book of Common Worship (Presbyterian) has a version of the breastplate in rhyming form that is really good. It begins with the words in this form: I bind unto myself today The strong name of the Trinity by invocation of the same, the Three in One, and One in Three.

It also contains the rest of the (rather lengthy) prayer which I could email you if you want. Reply here if you want it. dsutton@iname.com


25 May 1999
12:30:47

On the issue of faith and doubt and belief, I heard a Canon at the Washington Cathedral put it this way: "Belief is how we would really like God to be. Faith is when we finally accept God just the way He is."

Alan in Columbia, MD


25 May 1999
13:11:41

Thanks Alan in Columbia!

"Belief is how we would really like God to be. Faith is when we finally accept God just the way He is."

I would like to suggest that it applies just as much to ourselves and our self-perceptions:

"Belief is how we would really like ourselves to be. Faith is when we finally accept ourselves just the way we are. Which, of course, is just what God has done!"

For this reason (and many more!), we will be using a liturgy of Baptismal Remembrance for our worship on Sunday.

One more thought. I heard someone say (in a discussion, not here), that "everything Jesus has commanded us" is not a bunch of rules, it's simply "Love God, love your neighbour." Any thoughts?

Rick in Canada, eh?


25 May 1999
13:49:09

Have you ever noticed how many times Jesus commands his followers to "go"? Go and make disicples. Our discipleship is measure by what we do. Too many people in the church are stuck and need to hear that word, "Go" and do, not sit and pretend to pay attention--but go and do.

just a thought--

Paula in beautiful FL


25 May 1999
14:51:45

Thanks to Rev. Phil in TX for your point that "the Trinity is a mystery to be believed rather than a problem to be solved." I'm in agreement with your response to tom in ga about the contrast between the "harsh God of the Jews" and the gracious God of Jesus (who was, after all, a Jew). I'm reminded of the Living Bible paraphrase of John 1:17 (the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ): "For Moses gave us only the Law, with its harsh demands and merciless justice, while Jesus Christ brought us loving forgiveness as well." The graciousness of God is not limited to the Christian scriptures, but is found in abundance in the Hebrew scriptures as well.

An excellent resource on the trinitarian baptismal formula is Ruth Duck, "Gender and the Name of God" (Pilgrim Press, 1991). If I have more time tomorrow, I'll try to excerpt from her book.

Doug in Riverside


25 May 1999
18:30:05

Okay, I slip in here and read the contributions every week and grow! Thanks to you folks. Now, at the risk of showing my ignorance, I need help. Verse 19- "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations..." is the point I want to put through the needle but what about the KJV not saying this and instead saying "Go ye therefore and teach all nations..."?? If someone would kindly share a little for this poorly trained homilist, I would bless you! +The Searcher


25 May 1999
18:31:07

Okay, I slip in here and read the contributions every week and grow! Thanks to you folks. Now, at the risk of showing my ignorance, I need help. Verse 19- "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations..." is the point I want to put through the needle but what about the KJV not saying this and instead saying "Go ye therefore and teach all nations..."?? If someone would kindly share a little for this poorly trained homilist, I would bless you! +The Searcher


25 May 1999
18:43:25

And my first post was a double! Sorry about that. Still learning. Peace- +The Searcher


25 May 1999
19:37:32

Rick in Canada,

I agree that God accepts us just the way we are however, He doesn't want us to stay there. There are far too many Scriptures imploring us to be renewed, to be transformed, to be holy as He is holy, and the fact is that for most of us, where we are, is far from where we need to be.

Rick in Va


26 May 1999
05:02:59

Is anyone else leaning in the direction of looking at the Trinity primarily as our means of identifying our God from other gods? Also, along the same line, this implies that the threefold God is the same God who "is the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob..." and therefore is present in the Hebrew Scripture. Let's avoid the Marcionite option. And this implies that God has loved us from the beginning. God's love for Abraham and Sarah preceeds the giving of the Law, and even that was done for loving motives, not just to set the rules and then zap us for breaking them. Boyd in NC


26 May 1999
06:45:51

She was such a small thing, a wee spit of a person who looked so much younger than her nine years. But her small size certainly did not seem to diminish her demeanor, for to share space with her was to be in the presence of sunshine. She didn't just enter a room, she splashed into it like the laughter of a gurgling brook or the exclamation of a breaking wave just after the first rays of dawn, a statement of delight and beauty and joy. Her smile was infectious and her glance would melt the heart of even the most ardent cynic. Who could not be affected by one who was so full of life? How could anyone be cynical around Cynthia?

I met her as we prepared to go into the city. You see, she was part of this congregation who understood the call to reach beyond their walls, this peculiar group of church folks who understood that one could not claim life apart from those who struggled with the daily reality of death. So each and every month they would gather together, this eclectic community of disciples, male and female, black and white, some young and some not so young, and they would journey to that place where life was not so beautiful. They would pack vans full of food and clothing and they would travel to this urban landscape where success was measured in very small increments, measured by a hot meal on a cold morning, measured by just one day when one was not spit on, harassed, or cursed, measured by the piece of concrete one claimed for the night.

While the adults rushed about, she stood quietly among them, a look of purpose surrounding her small features, like some mini-missionary. She did not seem to understand that most who were not part of this small strange community would consider her of little consequence. She did not seem to understand that in most circles she would have been viewed as a risk. Instead, she stood there with a look which seemed to say, "I was created for this reason," which, of course, she was. Her father, another saint really, introduced her to me. As she placed her small hand into mine, she leaned toward me, drew her lips close to my ear and whispered, "You know, I'll help show you what to do."

Soon we had arrived at our destination, a dirty street corner not far from the world's most famous address, a street corner that was now home to a dozen or so beaten and damaged wanderers. Several of them ambled slowly over to the van and stood patiently at the open door, waiting for a scrap of clothing or a cup of hot, steaming coffee. They stood in silence, like some unseeing, upright corpses, responding only in monotones, hurt and lifeless … until Cynthia moved into their midst. And suddenly, as if they had been resurrected, smiles appeared, smiles and laughter and conversation. She moved from person to person, offering a bit of food, and offering so much more -- a glimpse of joy in the realm of despair, a moment of happiness in the midst of sorrow. She offered the beauty of her spirit. She offered herself. She offered the Word, the Word who was in her flesh, the Word who is hope, the Word who is God. The Holy Spirit blew through this congregation of the forgotten, blew through and embraced them by the presence of this little one. Mere words could never caress as these small hands caressed. Mere words could never proclaim this most concrete sign of the grace of the Word. Cynthia, teaching with her touch, and touching with her love.

And in that place of death, life prevailed.

In a few hours, our food depleted, our emotions drained, we drove slowly back to suburbia, slowly back to the home of this rather peculiar community called church. In the silence of the journey, I found myself thinking of Cynthia, this young and beautiful child of God. Cynthia, this nine year old angel who understood how to love, the young and beautiful child of God who struggled each and everyday with the debilitating disease of Cystic Fibrosis, who always seemed to find a way to bring hope to the other.

And the master, the suffering servant, moved through the crowd touching those around him, giving them life and bringing them hope. He moved through the crowd in the person of a diminutive and miraculous nine year old girl - Cynthia, the Christ.

Cynthia my sister, my small and wonderful friend, … you are my hero.

Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC


26 May 1999
06:56:34

Friends: What is the Trinity? I have struggled to find useful parallels, and have heard many clever explanations ranging from "3-in-1 oil" to the visual examples of flame and water in its various forms. All of these probably have their uses and are helpful to some people. But it struck me this beautiful morning, watching the fog rise off the Connecticut River, that what the notion of the Trinity is really about is wonder. Our feeble attempts to explain the unexplainable finally reveal just that: the greatest mysteries in our lives can't be analyzed, dissected, and explained. My love for my wife can be understood as a series of bio-chemical and neurological responses, but does that help me to understand love? The beauty of this morning, the reflection of sun on water and the stirring of blackbirds in the rustling leaves, can be understood as a configuration of scientific facts or as a poem, or even a dream glimpsing some utterly "other" realm of beauty and peace to which our own experience only draws us when we are open to the wonder and the dream. I want to celebrate the mystery of God this Sunday, and to invite my sometimes practical, pragmatic, rational, even cynical people to dare to live in the awe and wonder of believing what neither eye can see, nor ear hear, nor the human imagination envision. God! Holy, Holy, Holy! -- Tim in Deep River


26 May 1999
07:24:19

A possible illustration of the Trinity yo can do with the children's sermon--I did this last year ahnd am submitting it again.

Ask one of the children's mother/father to come forward, then ask the child---"Who is this?" "That's my mom/dad" Then ask the mother/father of that person to come forward, and ask the parent-"-Who is this?" "That's my son/daughter?" Then ask a brother/sister to come forward and ask them--"Who is this?' "This is my brother/sister?" Then talk about how this one person can be three different people but they are the same person.

John in PA


26 May 1999
07:44:49

The topic of the Trinity is not one which I approached with any great enthusiasm. It smacked too much of Things You Must Believe, and too little of the experience of the presence of God in our lives.

And so I found myself looking at the Ecumenical Councils and the great Trinitarian and Christological debates. What were they doing? Why were they doing it?

The non-answers seemed clear: they were not doing it to solve once and for all the mystery of the Trinity, nor, it seems to me, were they trying to define just what it is that everyone accept intellectually. Rather, I think that what they were trying to do was to come up with a clear definition of who we are.

The difference is fundamental; framing the doctrine of the Trinity as That Which Must Be Believed is very solitary, very inner and very private. Framing it as a declaration of who we are turns the direction around; it becomes a statement to the world: we are the people who know God as the Creator; we are the people who encounter God as the Revealer; we are the people who experience God as the Sustainer.

Alan in Columbia MD


26 May 1999
08:58:33

Rick in Va. I have been visiting here for a couple of months, and I have a question for you. Do you ever say anything positive to anyone? Sally in Scotland


26 May 1999
08:58:55

Rick in Va. I have been visiting here for a couple of months, and I have a question for you. Do you ever say anything positive to anyone? Sally in Scotland


26 May 1999
09:31:13

Sally in Scotland,

Thanks for visiting and now contributing to the DPS. My answer to your question is yes...

Please contribute again...

Rick in Va


26 May 1999
09:53:29

Dear Sally,

Here is my take: Rick is a friend in Christ. Even more, he is like a predictable family member. I pretty much know what he is going to say and how he is going to say it. From time to time he makes a contribution that enlarges and enriches my understanding, and I am thankful for this. Most of the time it is the same old stuff.... But I do not apologize for him. He is in love with Christ, and would like everyone to share that love. I do suspect that he goes about it in ways that don’t win many hearts, however, and that saddens me. Anyway, I think of DPS as a big extended family. We don’t share the same genes, but, remarkably, we share the same father....

HW in HI


26 May 1999
09:53:41

To Rick, Good answer!

Re: Trinity Illustations. Yes, they're all flawed. No, none of them approach the mystery of the Trinity. BUT ... Picture a chapel full of children. Chaplain Susan comes out of the sacristy with a big block of Neopolitan Ice Cream on a platter. "What's this?" she asks. "ICE CREAM!" they reply. "Is strawberry the same as chocolate?" "No." "Is vanilla the same as strawberry?" "No." "Are they all ice cream?" "YES!!!"

"Now, stay with me boys and girls, what do we mean when we talk about "THE TRINITY"? (Someone will get "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" ... these are bright kids.) "EXACTLY!" "Is the Father the same as the Son?" "No." "Is the Son the same as the Spirit?" "No." "Are they all God?" "YES!!!" And then -- in honor of Trinity Sunday -- you can pour chocolate syrup over the whole thing and have (TA-DA!) ... TRINITY SUNDAE!!!

Blessings (and bon apetite!) Susan in SanPedro


26 May 1999
10:15:31

From the 'predictable' family member, tucked away in the basement as to not cause undue embarrassment and/or shame...

Susan in San Pedro, excellent Trinity analogy, but just soas to stay in my rather predictable mode, causing consternation, stress, and upsetting this otherwise picture perfect family, I have a question...

Is God the Father chocolate, vanilla or strawberry?

Rick in Va


26 May 1999
10:55:29

Great stuff this week, guys and gals...

Rick in VA-- God the Mother is chococlate, God the Father is vanilla, and God the Creator of All Us Fruits and Nuts is strawberry!

More seriously, thanks to Rick in Canada, eh?, for bringing the "Great Commandment" into our discussion of the "Great Commission". Several points (and resulting opinion) I've gleaned from my readings--

1) The Great Commandment is the gospel in nutshell; it is Jesus "vision and program" as succinctly as he/we can tell it; would that we lived it...loving God every day with heart, soul, mind, and strength, and neighbor as self. I wonder: does it take precedence over the "Great Commission," if we interpret that commission as a need to make everyone believe the way we do?

2) That "Great Commission" in Matthew 28 is very likely "mythic" --i.e., like our text from Genesis; the best short (preachable) treatment I've seen os from Jim Taylor in this week'd "Ahaa!!"; it also mentions chocolate!... "Like Genesis and Corinthians, this is a formative passage. It sends us out to evangelize; it provides the formula for our baptismal rites. In fact, it may, like the opening of Genesis, be a myth - a story that attempts to explain an existing situation. That doesn't make it false. The most likely scenario is that the early Christians, all fired up by the experience of Pentecost, went out evangelizing anyway. They could no more keep this experience to themselves than someone who just discovered chocolate. Later, they felt that they needed authority for this practice. They cobbled together partially recalled memories, dreams, and wishes, and convinced themselves that it must have happened this way. The doctrine of the Trinity is hinted at elsewhere. But nowhere else, not even in Paul's benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:13, is it so explicit. Naturally, this story comes from Matthew. Matthew will not allow even Jesus to act without prior authorization from scripture. So he's hardly going to let the disciples, Jesus' successors, act on their own initiative."

3)The Trinity -- it is an experiential way of understanding what we cannot totally copmprehend. Many cannot accept is a strict doctrinal proposition, but can accept is an experiential reality; i.e, the "otherness" and incomprehensibility of the Godhead ("Father"); the intimacy of the revelation and the "knowableness" of God in Jesus ("Son"); and every breath we take, every moment of existence sustained by a power that is universal ("The Force", ha ha--i.e., "Spirit"). I experience God this way, and think it can be/is a universal experience not limited to the confines of Christian doctrine...and is therefore "teachable to all nations" in their own relgio/cultural context. Trinity can be conjunctive, and not exclusive; if it is seen less as a "fact" than it is as an opening or a doorway. This experiential view of Trinity for me links to Psalm 8 as well.

The Erie Preach Creach


26 May 1999
13:07:51

A few quick questions for HW in HI (and all) and I'm serious...

Is there a difference between winning hearts and winning souls?

How do you define many? 2, 3, 4, or more?

If we each 'won one soul (heart?)' for Christ, how different would the church be? the world?

And finally, is it no longer necessary for a shepherd to 'step on toes' occasionally to win a heart (soul) ? Is the essence of preaching satisfying itching ears (telling them what they want to hear) or proclaiming truth (which can be painful)?

Curious, I am...

'Black Sheep' Rick in Va


26 May 1999
13:59:05

Neopolitan Father is Vanilla. Vanilla is the basic stock of all flavors.

Christ is Strawberry. The blood of Jesus in the red (pink) color and can be made with a few drops of strawberry (red) flavoring to vanilla Ice cream.

The Holy Spirit is Chocolate. The chocolate color and flavoring overwhelms the other flavors and scares us in mainline churches.

We scoop out our favorite flavor taking God apart at times to fit our understanding. But God is very distinct, yet enjoyable at any time.

Bruce in WI


26 May 1999
14:00:00

Some musings/notes on the Trinity: Somewhere I read, several years ago, an article by Catherine Mowry LaCugna, in which she spoke of the "economic Trinity" as "God in us", "God for us", "God with us".

A couple of Augustine's analogies for the "essential" or "immanent" Trinity: Lover-Beloved-Love; memory-knowledge-will (as aspects of individual consciousness).

From Ruth Duck, "Gender and the Name of God": "Baptismal naming that is trinitarian implies a shared life, a dancing together, at the heart of divine reality. Further, it implies an invitation for human beings to share in life with God, to become 'partners in the divine dance' (Catherine Mowry LaCugna). 'Through the being of Christ, God's trinitarian life is extended to creation, inviting creation to share in the very divine life itself' (Patricia Wilson-Kastner). The openness of persons to one another in the triune God is not a closed system; it opens out in love to the whole creation. Joining in the dance through the invitation of Jesus Christ, the community of the baptized may call on God in terms of intimate personal relationship." (p. 149)

Doug in Riverside


26 May 1999
14:06:05

Rick in Canada,

Define "LOVE"

We often hear discussions of God's love being very permissive and accepting us as we are. Love of a parent sets boundaries and asks us to be obedient to a high standard. Christ's asks us to sin no more and to seek to follow faithfullly. Following not a set of rules but the example of Christ. Christ welcomed everyone and loved them to see God's way not their way be done. Rules/law set by God guide us to the more excellent way of unconditional love. A love which aligns our hearts, minds, soul, and might with God's way. The guidance is for our own good and a loving God hurts when we need to be disciplined.

God's love endures forever, whether we see correction as love or not.

Bruce in WI.


26 May 1999
16:30:41

Ahhh Bruce in WI,

Refreshing as a cold glass of iced tea on a sweltering hot day in August are your words...

Thanks for being true to the full gospel...

Amen and amen!

Rick in Va


26 May 1999
20:22:43

Sally in Scotland: Rick in VA is quick to say positive things to those with a positive treatment of the Gospel! He is undoubtedly tired of seeing people change the Bible to suit we humans instead of changing we humans to suit the Bible. Right, Rick? (He is not alone.) revup


27 May 1999
04:58:09

My dear friends,

Though I don't often offer commentary aside from the commentary I hope to proclaim through story, sometimes I feel like, "Well, maybe no one 'got it' or perhaps I just don't 'get it.'" This is one of those times. In this very real and recent story of Cynthia, I was hoping to offer a portrait of "disciple making," a concrete example of Trinitarian activity, and a sign of Baptism - an outward and visible sign of grace, God's salvific Spirit who creates and transforms. Perhaps I tried to say too much in one small story. But, as PaideiaSCO so elegantly stated, Trinity is a "community-making process." Trinity can be no other. As God, the creator, breathes life into this cosmic child, she is indwelled by Christ in order to move into the arena where God's Spirit resides, flesh on flesh, God's action through the incarnate Christ who dwells within.

We can talk about the theological constructs, we can discuss the paradox of triune monotheism, we can debate the significance of baptism within a Trinitarian context, we can argue back and forth among ourselves on who has the "proper" understanding of God, but as I pondered all of this, I truly found I could not convey a better picture of someone demonstrating the meaning of "teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" than a small, damaged child who could never join this conversation, but who makes all of this crystal clear with her actions. A damaged little girl who, with her faith community, goes to the streets of Washington D.C., the very heart of that place where our own social/religious/political myth finds it's greatest legitimization, and demonstrates the transforming power of Trinitarian presence.

And all Cynthia thought she was doing, was loving the hungry people who live in the parks "just like Jesus would do."

Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC


27 May 1999
06:05:47

Finally, specific answers to "Black Sheep" Rick in VA:

Q: "Is there a difference between winning hearts and winning souls?"

A: Yes, there is a big difference between winning hearts and winning souls. I won my girlfriend's heart, and our love (we married 23 years ago) will go on "as long as we both shall live." I also helped win her soul to Jesus Christ, so her love for Jesus will go on eternally. I see winning hearts to be getting people to love a person, place or thing, or possibly even God. I, however, see winning souls as helping people to turn their heart, mind and soul to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Q: "How do you define many? 2, 3, 4, or more?"

A: One more, that next one Jesus asked you to lead to Jesus. He or she might be the last one admitted.

Q: "If we each 'won one soul (heart?)' for Christ, how different would the church be? the world?"

A: I am trying to encourage people to do just that, and maybe we will see one day, with enough help. Jesus is encouraging us ALL to do that and maybe we will ALL see one day. It would obviously be a much larger church! We would start a major construction push, just to fit the people into church buildings.

Q: "And finally, is it no longer necessary for a shepherd to 'step on toes' occasionally to win a heart (soul) ? Is the essence of preaching satisfying itching ears (telling them what they want to hear) or proclaiming truth (which can be painful)?"

A: Yes, Jesus stepped on many toes and made many people angry. However, Jesus knew what everyones' response would be. (Or if you are a Calvinist, knew the "elect.") We preachers should be operating out of trying to follow the Holy Spirit, and sometimes we will make a mistake and fail. When a doctor fails, they bury the person. When a preacher or other missionary fails, the consequences are much more eternally severe. Too often, we push too hard and turn people off so badly they will not even let the next person speak of Jesus. That means we were selfish, thinking we had to be the only one to lead that person to Christ. That is putting God in a box. I remember a radio preacher I used to hear every week say the same basic line in the same basic words. . . "You sinners are going to hell. You sinners better listen to me!" Who is going to listen to someone who first calls them nasty names? On the other hand, if we never say anything to an unbeliever, how will they find Jesus? It is best to share Christian love with someone and get to know them, before introducing them to your best friend, in a way that is not too offensive. A spoon full of sugar does make the medicine go down easier. The problem is, too many people pass out the sugar and forget the medicine,-- the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What does it profit a person if they gain the whole world, but lose their soul? Like a good doctor, do no harm! (Maybe they will then listen to someone else!)

PS: Any good salesman knows you can lead a horse to water AND make him drink if you salt the oats first, or create a thirst in them. Or Rick, make them "itch" just a little bit so they want to be scratched. (Give out bread, butter and then share Bibles.)

Q: "Curious, I am..." A: YES, you are!

Black Sheep revup


27 May 1999
06:29:15

Hello to all (again),

On Monday, I asked a question of all of you and as yet have not received an answer. So, I'll try again.

The question, in a nutshell: How are you incorporating Memorial Day into this Sunday's liturgy, if at all? I'll be looking forward to a response soon.

I enjoy reading the contributions from all of you; they are generally very stimulating and thought provoking. Thanks again, Joe in OH


27 May 1999
07:08:11

Nailbender,

You're right of course. The little girl sets the example we all need to follow. But we also must preach and teach Christ crucified. There are many civic organizations, other religions, and social groups who will do what the little girl did (maybe not as effectively). But somewhere along the line, 'the hungry people living in the parks' need to connect the little girl with Christ. My approach is to do that overtly rather than covertly. It is the Bread of Life that those hungry people need. Not just manna. And so that then leads to my conclusion that it's not an either/or situation but a both/and situation.

We need to follow the little girl's example and we need to tell those hungry people about Christ, and Christ crucified, and Christ resurrected, and the transforming power of Christ.

If we don't, then in my view, those hungry people in the park will stay hungry. And that little girl will be feeding the same people over and over again.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, AND teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. AND remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Rick in Va


27 May 1999
07:19:29

Barry in OH- You really touched me deeply when you said, <I>"All I know is that I praise the most awesome God, while I try to live with my doubts...most of which are, by the way, more related to the church, its doctrines, its future, than to the reality of God, which I seldom doubt. </I> Thank you. Please write to me at John1335a@aol.com


27 May 1999
08:45:37

Rev. Bev, Source, light & power. -linda in MD


27 May 1999
08:45:53

Rev. Bev, Source, light & power. -linda in MD


27 May 1999
08:49:31

Brother Rick,

Though I don't disagree with your point of sharing God's word through speech, I am not sure what you meant about your statement, "If we don't, then in my view, those hungry people in the park will stay hungry. And that little girl will be feeding the same people over and over again." If your point is metaphorical, perhaps I would agree, that yes, those folks will be hungry for God's liberating love and word. However, if your point is that by "accepting Jesus as their personal savior" they might somehow be lifted out of poverty and homelessness, then I must strongly suggest that you are significantly misinformed.

I have the rare privilege and am blessed to direct an extensive ministry engaged in "moving beyond the walls." One facet of the ministry is a home repair ministry situated in one of the more impoverished areas of the country. Some of the homes on which we work are truly deplorable, shacks really. Yet, Rick, the VAST majority of the folks living in those homes live a life of such deep faith that their faith would perhaps make my faith or your faith pale by comparison. Rick, all they have is faith. And one will find much of that same dynamic on the streets of Washington. The reasons of homelessness are complex, varied, and many, but generally revolve around broken systems, broken lives, and mental illness. Yes, and the church must bear it's share in this dynamic as well.

The teams who come to this place to work, the servant-volunteers (though I don't even like to use the term volunteer when speaking of discipleship), all come with the understanding that they are coming to proclaim the name of Christ through the offering of their time, resources, and talents in the arena of home repair. And indeed they do. Some of the teams come with the thought that they are also coming to "save souls" as well. Yet, most when they leave here, realize it is not the impoverished home owners who have been transformed, but these very ones who have come - it is they who have been saved, saved from the arrogance of believing that lack of material possessions somehow means lack of faith. Perhaps, if we be open, perhaps the Trinitarian presence who says I am found in the "least of these" will save us as well.

Shalom my friend, Nail-Bender in NC


27 May 1999
09:02:10

Brother Rick and friends, As I read my last post, let me state, I do not mean to suggest that any in this forum are arrogant. However, I do believe that many of us do unconsciously fall into the trap of the Pharisee, "What has this man done that he be blind?" Perhaps this is just due to socialization or perhaps it is simply due to our own brokeness, our own sin of pride.

Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC


27 May 1999
09:11:38

Rick in Va,

How do you encourage your covert parishioners to become overt evangelizers in Jesus name? How do these texts encourage same? -Linda in MD


27 May 1999
09:54:27

Linda in MD,

I think verse 20 is the key to your question... By teaching them obedience. I think we concentrate too much on how God accepts us and we diminish how much God desires our obedience. The Scriptures are filled with references to the good that comes from obedience, not just to those in need but to those who provide (as Nailbender has already pointed out).

Nailbender,

My references to hunger were both metaphorical and literal. I find it ironic (and I'm guilty of this as well) that those who profess the virtues of not being materialistic are those who do their level best to provide material things for the poverty stricken. It's why I think the clearest solution to poverty is material help AND manna from heaven (Christ).

I have been involved with ministries to the poor in our local area, and there is no doubt in my mind that many are rich in faith.

My biggest struggle is dealing with the poor in spirit who are very well off materially. It is they, who having sincerely accepted Christ as Savior, can do the most good providing material things for those who are materially poor.

And in the mystery of God's love, when the two social groups come together, both are blessed.

Hope that clarifies my position...

Rick in Va


27 May 1999
10:16:51

Come on guys, it is obvious to anyone who has done extensive research into the original languages that God the Father is Pistacio, God the Son is Rocky Road and The Holy Spirit is the Whipped Cream. This definitive treatment should end the debate on the flavors of the Trinity.

Rick in Va has been very positive to me personally and I too am grateful for his presence, his gift and his spirit.

Bro Ken


27 May 1999
11:02:10

Joe in OH,

Check out the discussion in Genesis....

HW in HI


27 May 1999
11:05:06

Joe in OH

I plan to talk about sacrifices this sunday.

Our war dead and their families have endured a large sacrifice.

God the father/mother sacrificed his/her son.

Jesus paid the price of sacrifice.

The Holy spirit is with the soldier, the grieving family member and the christian in all his or her endeavors.

I'll tell the story of a WWII christian widow that sacrifised her life to save a jewish woman from the nazis and how that jewish woman comverted to christianity and dedicated her life to serving the Lord.

Finally, I'll switch to the great commission, ask what personal sacrifices it will take to follow the directive of Christ.

Just some preliminary thoughts. Hope they help. Brad on MO


27 May 1999
11:24:35

One thing I am beginning to figure out, and barely able to describe. It seems that my understanding of God allows for many other understandings -- Rick's, Nail Bender's, Pasthersyl's, Pam's, Susan's, Bro ken's, etc.

Rick, when i talk about winning hearts, I guess i also mean souls. i suppose you can win a soul for God without the heart, but I don't know how... When I talk about not winning many hearts, perhaps that is unfair. I have no idea what the impact of your ministry is, and in truth, a ministry that wins just one heart, if that is the heart of a formidle Christian (insert your own favorite example) -- then that is enough. All i mean, is that your style of writing, if preached, would not work well with many of the unchurched that walk through the doors of my church -- if i were to use it. Might work for you. Finally, as for me, i am very careful about the times I choose to preach in a manner that 'steps on toes.' i will, i do, but only when i have prayed on it a bit. I would rather entice someone through the door and then let God do the zapping. I think most of us respond better to God convicting us of our shortcomings than a human doing so.

But Rick, I admire your fire for Christ. What might the world be if all God's preachers were on fire?

HW in HI


27 May 1999
12:19:15

An attempt at blending Trinity Sunday and Memorial Day:

MEMORIAL DAY MORNING

Below the hill where carved stones mark the silent graves of our ancestors, the sun spills onto the quiet water of a sheltered cove where geese forage for breakfast, and blackbirds sing their "Tok-a-ree" of joy for the coming of another morning. They flash their red badges, carried proudly on their wings for all to see, as did the soldiers now lying still on the hill above. They, too, once sang for joy for the coming of their mornings, living and dying for the freedom to speak, to laugh, to love, to fly, for bright hopes of a day they would never see, and for this day where I, forgetful even of their names, now walk, listening to these blackbirds in their matins, free, too, and alive to bless our glorious dead, our glorious life, and our glorious, wondrous, gracious God who spills his sunlight and his love for them, for us, for ever, for ever. Amen.

--Tim in Deep River


27 May 1999
14:24:49

27 MAY 99

Did the water, steam, ice with my after school program but need another for SUnday's children's sermon (overlap of children!) What do you think about a pitcher of water poured into three different cups/containers. The water is water, the way we perceive/experience is varied. Now, re vs. 17 was given an interesting read by a Lutheran commentator on ecunet. The particle "de" is usually translated "But", referring to other subjects. It COULD be "and", as in "when they saw him (Jesus)they worshiped and doubted." Whether the doubters were the worshipers (and isn't that our experience?) or part of the crowd were doubters, I see a great, freeing insight for those "doubters in the crowd." And what a good Sunday for this--we have the Genesis companion text which has historically been rendered as literal (and unbelievable for many thinking believers) and we have the doctrine of the Trinity... admittedly an attempt to simplify/explain our understanding/experience of God, but replete with question and even "doubt." But we're still believers! We are still worshipers, part of a struggling, growing, blessed, "evolving" (being conformed to Christ's image)people of God (cf. I Peter 2:10). Blessings to all in your important work. Peter in CA


27 May 1999
15:43:37

Joe in Ohio asked, "How are you incorporating Memorial Day into this Sunday's liturgy, if at all? I'll be looking forward to a response soon." I mentioned on Mother's Day that trying to include a sermon on EVERY primarily secular holiday can keep you from preaching either the salvation Gospel OR the social Gospel, BOTH of which I feel are VITAL. There are alternatives to preaching only on the holiday theme: 1) A children's sermon, such as defining the difference between a perfect, loving Father and too often imperfect or possibly even bad fathers on earth. 2) A powerful illustration on a mother's love compared to Christ's love.

NOW! I am sorry, I am still looking for one illustration on making disciples, (for this Confirmation week), the Trinity, and throw in our military heros who gave their lives so we desperate preachers can argue whether the "social Gospel" or "salvation Gospel" is more important. Nail-Bender in NC or SOMEBODY can you help out poor, overwhelmed revup, possibly with a story of a military hero leading someone to faith in Christ, by explaining the Trinity to them? "Cynthia's story" may just solve part of my dilema! HELP! I am a DESPERATE preacher! revup


27 May 1999
18:50:26

I am still liking the Ice Cream theme for Trinity! Even as it seems simplistic, everyone should get the meaning, and enjoy it at the same time! Try: Vanilla - the original, Creator God, Superman - the God-man, Jesus Christ, and Butter Pecan (my favorite) as the real "comfort food" in the Holy Spirit. RAP in OH


27 May 1999
19:03:06

Genesis is 'unbelievable for many thinking believers'?!?

But the resurrection, the virgin birth, the ascension, the walking on water, the water into wine, and the raising of the dead is more credible for the 'thinking believer'?!?

C'mon Peter in Ca...

Methinks little of 'thinking believers' who don't believe in anything more than their own intelligence, their ability to reason, their desire to rationalize everything away.

The Holy Bible, New International Version

Matthew 18:3 And he [Jesus] said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Rick in Va


27 May 1999
19:49:05

I suppose no one is obligated to answer a post- my question clearly is not as entertaining as the squabble that seems to permeate through some of the discussion here. It is as if I intruded into a community and was ignored. So be it. At least this week, this has not proven to be a good place to be desperate. +The Searcher (now somewhere else) p.s. May the peace of the Lord be with you always- and may your blessed ice cream not drip! Ughh


27 May 1999
20:07:44

OK, so we blew it and lost +The Searcher's question in all the squabbles. My requests often get lost, too, as do everyone elses. I don't know, all I can say about the difference (the original question of + the Searcher) between Verse 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations..." and the KJV not saying this and instead saying "Go ye therefore and teach all nations..." is that the newer versions are based on much earlier (C100-200 AD) and assumingly more accurate texts than those faulty C1500 AD documents on which the KJV was based. Wasn't KJV based on a text that was later found to be edited fraudulently? (Someone help me, my seminary memory is all ready turning cemetery.) And yes, I am sure many of you will agree with that statement from this Black Sheep. revup


27 May 1999
20:21:20

Just recentlly discovered this site and this is my first time to post. Here's where I think I'm going with this: The Trinityis a great mystery, in fact, we can never fully comprehend God. But God does reveal self insofar as we ar capable of comprehending. 1 way we can know God is by observing what God DOES. 1. God creates. Why? From love. Creation an act of love. And to us, made in God's image, God gives dominion over all creation. 2. God does not stop there. God loves us so much that he becomes 1 of us, pitches his tent among us, teaches us, suffers, dies and rises again that our sinful lives might be redeemed. Having given us life in creation, now God gives us new life. 3. Not satisfied with that, God sends the Holy Spirit to us, to abide with us, to empower us to have new life in God, and to show forth God's love to others, cf the command in today's Gospel. So when Paul tells us to examine ourselves (I'm following the Episcopal lectionary which has the earlier part of 2 Cor 13), we should be examing ourselves on this standard of love. I think it was Newman (anybody know?) who said "At the end of our life we shall be judged on love." So that is how we should examine ourselves. Then I'll quote the "Put things in order" line and end with v. 14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ," etc. Amen.

Barbara in SW MO


27 May 1999
20:23:40

A few thoughts: I like the flame image for the Trinity.

My favorite "picture" of the Trinity is a banana. if you peel a banana, then slip a finger down into it from one end or the other, the banana splits into three separate and distinct parts which are in essence the same. Try it.

Second thought. We don't do anything on SUnday for remembering those on Memorial Day, we actually have a 9 a.m. service ON Memorial Day. It is never large, but those who really want to take time to remember seem to be the ones who attend.

Tomm: good thoughts on the Trinity. Keep them coming.

Jim in PA


28 May 1999
05:28:17

Dear Barbara in SW MO, For a first entry, very astute! I like your imagery, because, unlike many of the little things use in Children'Sermon (and I am as guilty as anyone), tend to explain away, rather than explain. Continuing with your thought: Does not the beginning of Trinitartian theology happen in the OT, places like Genesis where God creates a human being then sends the divine breath to "breathe life" into that being? And do we not find the first references to a Word of God in the messages of the prophets? What I am getting at is that God's identity has a mysterious complexity and depth even in the supposedly "monotheistic" Hebrew Scripture? The early Church recognized this complexity and ran with it, not to explain anything away, but to celebrate the mystery. It is the victory of an complex, interesting image of God over a flat, boring one. We modern, thinking Christians are too eager to reverse the trend. I wonder if sometimes preachers and theologians who try to be true to the Gospel (and I include all users of this site in that category) are constantly caught between two polarized groups in the congregation. On the one hand are the simplifiers, who find all this Trinity language just too old fashioned. They want a simple message from a simple God. They can accept that Jesus was a good leader, a moral teacher, but "Son of God?" Get real! On the other are the neo-pagans who prefer a multitude of gods and goddesses. In this group I include the real neopagans who can tell you the names of all the Celtic deities, and the great many Christians who worship daily at the altars of money, prestige, power, family, better appointments (a Methodist allusion, sorry). Walking that thin tightrope down the middle are that handful of people who still believe that the Gospel writers got it right the first time, even though it is a hard thing to understand. Peace! Boyd in NC PS to Joe in OH:


28 May 1999
05:33:59

Oops! PS to Joe in OH. I am a pacifist, but I honor our congregation's veterans and those who died in war during Memorial Day services. I am sure each and every one of them went to war to live out the Gospel as they felt led to live it. The cause of peace is not advanced by being petty or small about days like this. I will have plenty of other chances to express my views. Honor is a good thing.


28 May 1999
07:31:11

Please don't tell people (not even children) that God is really One but appears to be three to us. And don't tell them that God is really Three but appears to be one. God is not a committee. God is not a Monad. God is what God is and praise God we cannot comprehend what God is. Because God is Three in One, relationship is fundamental (it's OK to use that word isn't it!) to existence. I have heard it said, "The Jew can say, 'Yahweh loves.' The Moslem can say, 'Allah loves.' But only the Christian can say, 'God IS love.'" Think about it on Trinity Sunday and pass the Love around.

Bro Ken


28 May 1999
10:14:38

To +The Searcher (if you come back and try us again…),

Tried to address your question, at least obliquely, in my post. But to clarify—maybe KJV is more accurate here than later versions (it does happen!). "Teaching all nations" has a different feel than "making disciples of all nations." A disciple implies a teacher, to be sure, but I have no problem with teaching Christ anywhere and any time people will listen, and receive. Making disciples, on the other hand, CAN connote a lot that is negative (even shameful) in Christian history, where disciples were often made at the point of a spear yielded with arrogant malevolence, or outright hostile (and purely political) intent that was totally contrary to our Teacher. And if the language of "making disciples" can be problematic, I prefer the language of teaching all nations. After all, I can also be taught FROM other lands and traditions, which helps augment and clarify my own belief system. This is not relativism, I think, but is life "the way it is": a rich tapestry of wisdom and knowledge, into which our Teacher saw clearly (perhaps as no other) drew from deeply (as least as much as others), and shared with incredible courage and trust in God (which is worthy of emulation by all others).

The Erie P-C


28 May 1999
10:36:52

What is difficult is the question for the preacher to either preach doctrine or the Gospel? The Gospel is a dynamic account of our Lord's Great Com-mission. It seems to be saying (using a little of Paul Van Buren) that God's work remains unfinished. God is still in the process of creating and redeeming, and we who have dominion over the face of the earth, who share in a partnership with God, who are called to be disciples are part of this ongoing work. Years ago, there was a controversial book called "The Saviors of God". Author I do not remember. But what made that book so powerful was the idea that if we don't do our share in the works of grace and justice then God will not be able to, either, that it all depended on us!!!!

It seems to me that if we are going to talk about the Trinity, then what we need to say is that the Father, not only creates but sends his Son to reconcile the world; and that the Spirit is the on-going work in the present. Those of us who understand deeply both anamnesis and epiklesis, know that here in the present God reveals himself again and again through his mighty acts.

The Trinity is not some vague notion of God, it is how we have experienced him, and at the center of this experience is love.

tom in ga


28 May 1999
11:51:25

Who said: "Preach the gospel everywhere. Use words when necessary"? Was it gentle St. Francis?

If we are to "make disciples" as Jesus did, that would not imply force, coercion, shame, nor threat. It would be by mingling, inviting, exemplifying a God-related life, and persuading with compassion.

When Jesus "stepped on toes" it was not necessarily to make disciples, but to rectify unjust social and religious structures and those who perpetuated them.

His disciple-making happened through small-talk and helpfulness and Q&A and story-telling. And by being as real as the message he proclaimed.

In short, he embodied "all that [he] commanded," i.e., to love God completely and to love others and self. He, being the Beloved of the Trinity, was thus able to sweep others {i.e., "make disciples"} into that intimate relationship with the Lover and the Love.

Disciple-making includes a)baptizing (incorporating, claiming as one of us,including) and then b)teaching (equipping, confronting, discerning, guiding, modeling). There is a time for strong words. Jesus did not approach people initially with those.

Let us, the Pentecost People, be similarly Windswept into that glorious relationship as we "earnestly desire the higher gifts" of the Spirit -- especially the gift of love for the lost.

Sunday's Child


28 May 1999
12:18:00

Another thought on coercive disciple-making: It is said that when Constantine marched his troops through the river to baptize them into a Christian empire, they held their swords aloft to prevent their getting wet. Might this continued practice be the cause necessitating a Memorial Day for men of war? The current, destructive practice of "making a believer out of Milosevik" seems to be at great odds with the mandate of the Creator celebrated in the Psalm.

I guess that's the kind of thing that can happen when God goes around giving us dominion over every living thing...

Sunday's Child


28 May 1999
12:40:37

Well! This is one of the most animated discussions we've had here in a while. I love the thoughtfulness of the comments and the insights offered here. Rick, if you're a black sheep, don't change! You make me think, as I suspect you do for many of us!. I cannot even begin to list the names of those whose contributions have helped me,many times, not JUST THIS WEEK, but please know you are all appreciated very much! I am going to use the flame, and several excerpts from different postings for this week's sermon. God bless all who are willing to share... thanks again!

Janet in NY ps: lets try to remember that "tone of voice" does not carry well in the written word, and be less quick to judge someone's remarks...lets take what we can use and submit our offerings without rancor. This is not meant as a complaint, just a reminder in case anyone needs it. If you don't need it, feel free to ignore it! (This is offered with a smile and in an attitude of love.) Janet


28 May 1999
13:22:27

In the Lutheran "Sundays and Seasons" worship help-book, there is a tidbit about conveying the trinity.

It says, "Picture God first as the giver. Then as the gift. And finally as the one who helps us open up and use the gift that has been given."

Tigger in ND


28 May 1999
13:30:48

I've rediscovered a couple of quotes per Sunday's gospel text that might prove helpful: "God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one as a divine community who live with and for and in one another in mutual openness, freedom and self-giving love. And this divine community is the model of all genuine human community. Shirley C. Guthrie in Christian Doctrine

We do not think about the Trinity so much as experienc it. Only then do we understand. And here is the paradox, that we understand the Trinity most when we realize that we do not understand. Herbert O'Driskoll, Prayers for the Breaking of Bread

The divine community is a clue to the way we are called to live in community - both as church and as the body of Christ to a broken world.

I, too, have the honor of preaching and then confirming 28 sixth graders this Sunday on Trinity Sunday. One of them is my daughter. Yet it matters little what I say and more how I live as a daily example of what it means to be a disciple in the making. One cannot make disciples if he/she is unwilling to be made new again and again in Christ.

Your comments and questions and doubts are gifts to this pastor. kb in TX


28 May 1999
13:31:15

I know it's late in the week and you've already decided to go with the ice cream analogy, or the fire, or the water, or the personal relationship model - all of which flirt with modalism - which separates the Godhead by function. Even though the creeds would seem to lead us down that path orthodox Christian theology states that the Father creates, redeems, sanctifies, the Son creates, redeems, sanctifies, the Spirit creates, redeems, sanctifies. We might experience the work of creation, redemption, sanctification as one person of the Trinity but the Trinity itself(?) cannot be separated, even by function. Rather FatherSonSpirit is the name of our one God who creates, redeems, and (the on-going work) sanctifies. prh


28 May 1999
16:58:10

Joe in OH (and others wondering about Memorial Day) - I'm clueless about a tie-in, but if it's not too late, I've just posted a Memorial Day sermon based on 2 Sam. 1 ("How the mighty have fallen") on the "inspired sermons" link. Not sure it's inspired,but it seemed to be appreciated at a former congregation in a military community. And I'm a pacifist! Blessings - Kay


28 May 1999
18:06:54

Last year I tried my best to explain the Trinity . . at the 9:00 service, and at the 11:00 service. I said what the Trinity was like. I said what the Trinity was not like, and what heresies were involved there. I got nowhere.

Then that afternoon I began a week's retreat at a monastery, and at Vespers that evening, we worshipped the Trinity. This year I think I'll do less explaining and more worshipping.


28 May 1999
18:09:01

Oops . . that was kbc in sc


28 May 1999
19:50:10

Janet,

Thanks for your kind words... however I do hope to continue to change, to be yielded to His Holy Spirit, that I might change to be more like Christ.

(A change some here would like to see in fast forward mode...)

Rick in Va


29 May 1999
06:41:32

It is late, but here's a quick thought. I remember reading this verse in Greek class. Make disciples, matheteuo, is the verb in 19-20. Go, baptise, and teach are participles. They are dependent on the main verb for their meaning. So the main command is not to go to some other place, it is to MAKE DISCIPLES. In making disciples, we will go, we will baptise, we will teach.

Larry cny


29 May 1999
06:54:34

I bought some neapolitan candy at Wal-Mart as my children's sermon objects! (It is in the Brach's bulk candysection.)

As for a memorial Day illustration, here is my section from my sermon: My second point is we are to teach them to obey all Jesus commanded. Jesus commanded us to love God and our neighbors. He also specifically said His Commandment, "Love one another." This weekend we pause to honor brave souls who did just that. They died for the freedom of their loved ones. They showed the greatest love one can show. In the Declaration of Independence the first American heroes wrote, "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world . . .We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." Kenneth Dodge writes, " Fifty-six men signed the Declaration. Of the 56, five were captured by the British and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost sons, and two had sons captured. Nine of 56 died in the war. Carter Braxton, wealthy planter and trader, had his ships sunk, sold everything to pay debts, and died in poverty. British Gen. Cornwallis took over Thomas Nelson's home. Nelson ordered General George Washington to open fire on his home, which was destroyed. Nelson died bankrupt. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. He returned to find his wife dead and children vanished." The sacrifices of those Founding Fathers has been followed by countless other brave veterans, whom we recognize this weekend. They are models for the difficulty in fulfilling my second point, we are to obey what Jesus commanded and love one another. And yes, sometimes that means laying down your life for a friend or even taking the life of someone who would murder our people and destroy our right to worship. revup


29 May 1999
12:38:55

Late entry due to conference here in Oklahoma - but thanks, Larry for your insight to the gk word. That will help me in fleshing out my outline which will encourage elderly folks who can't really "GO" any more, that they can still be a part of the Great Commission (and it is a CO-mission) by (1) being SURE of their faith (2) SHARING their faith (3) SUPPORTING the church -- and yes, even the denomination, as it seeks to make disciples in all parts of the world. For Memorial Day, I always light candles to help us remember those who have given their lives for their church, their country, etc. and use a prayer similar to that in the Um Book of Worship. Re Trinity: I agree with the poster who said, It really can't be explained, just worship the God of Many Names. Good input this week. Thanks, Friends. REvKK


29 May 1999
12:39:15

Late entry due to conference here in Oklahoma - but thanks, Larry for your insight to the gk word. That will help me in fleshing out my outline which will encourage elderly folks who can't really "GO" any more, that they can still be a part of the Great Commission (and it is a CO-mission) by (1) being SURE of their faith (2) SHARING their faith (3) SUPPORTING the church -- and yes, even the denomination, as it seeks to make disciples in all parts of the world. For Memorial Day, I always light candles to help us remember those who have given their lives for their church, their country, etc. and use a prayer similar to that in the Um Book of Worship. Re Trinity: I agree with the poster who said, It really can't be explained, just worship the God of Many Names. Good input this week. Thanks, Friends. REvKK


29 May 1999
13:39:45

wondering how Christ understood his own commission...to set captives free, to help the blind to see, to proclaim liberty and release...then to live that out by healing, serving, releasing lonely, sick people from their demons (whether political, social, psychological, spiritual)...

strikes me that the the great commission is about a way of living...that for christ, kingdom of God was never just an idea, a doctrine of salvation; but a way, a road, an obedience to a lifestyle of giving, sharing, forgiving...

and still we come back...you can be forgiving, you can be generous, you can be selfless...but did you get the doctrine right?

how do we lead the church to be sheep and not goats, for surely both PROFESS Christ, saying, "lord", "lord"...but one is known by Christ (even though they recognized him not) by their activity of love...while the other complains, "but when did we see you?"

perhaps as much as we think Christ wants our worship and praise (no service is authentic lest it be in Christ's name!), he'd rather we just as soon realize that whenever goodness and love is lived out, Christ truly IS praised and salvation has drawn near! no wonder he praises the roman centurian, the syrophoenician woman...not because they worship him, but because they share in his heart to see the hurt healed, the possessed released. they are hence truly his brother and sister...

beware lest we place assent to doctrine as a priori to pleasing God...my guess is that those living Christ's teachings have inadvertantly come across a great treasure, and truly, it is they who know the way, the truth, and the life...

one day we will all stand before God, and we who thought we knew will be greatly disappointed, caught in our own Christian arrogance and pride...but then there will be those who never having seen Christ, yet lived as Christ would have lived, and for them, i imagine there will be tears of joy and recognition (ah, so you're the one who spoke to my heart and guided me to live thus!) when Christ is fully revealed...

thank God Christ IS the only way, for our ways are far too crooked with lies and deceit...

jp also from virginia...


29 May 1999
15:58:17

Well, if we are still doing the simile thing, how about the Speaker, the Word, the Breath? What am I doing still at dps at this late hour . . .? kbc in sc


29 May 1999
16:41:53

I have to say that this has been a most interesting progression of entries. As I've checked in just about every day, thoughts and reflections have gone just about every direction. But somehow it all comes together, and somehow a sermon comes out of it all. Thanks to Sunday's Child--I loved your entries--especially the "windswept." I borrowing that--hope you don't mind.

I decided early on not to try to describe the Trinity. "Been there, done that." Still remember trying to articulate it to Board of Ministry during my deacon's candidacy. (Sorry--Methodist reference.) Instead, concentrated on the Great Commission, which sounds really simple, but turned out not to be. Oh well. Isn't it amazing that sometimes God's Word gets preached, in spite of us all? God is good!

Blessings, and thanks to all. Dot


29 May 1999
20:37:58

many thanks to all this week - linda in MD


30 May 1999
05:26:31

Sunday morning and time to head for church. Never do I feel so inadequate as when I try to deal with philosophical theology. I just was not geared for that.

I have heard it said that people today are not searching for meaning in their lives so much as they want to experience the divine in their lives.

After while I plan to read parts of The Creation sermon by James Weldon Johnson to my people. Then I will tell the wonderful "Cynthia" story. Then ask them to sing "Alleluia" acapella a time or two.

Somehow I expect we will experience a meaning on a par with what I did last year, in which I made the definitive statement on the Trinity---for all time!!! Sorry you missed it :-).

Re Memorial Day: We have a sharing time during the service. I usually have persons simply give the "name, war, branch of service" of any person they know who died in the service of our country. That's all.

God bless you all! I will go the next week's board and try to communicate better.

Cornbread in So Texas (Conrad Archer, Ganado)