I recall the "tell no one" part but it suddenly jumped out at me that Jesus was calling this a vision. Is this an accurate translation. I know some scholars think this is post resurection narative. But right now I am fascinated to think that Jesus called this a vision.
What would that mean? Does it imply that it is largely a psychological phenomonon or that it may be like seeing ghosts? I don't want to read too much into this but it seems strange that Jesus would refer to this as a vision. I would have expected Jesus to refer to this as an event and later Christians to refer to it as a vision.
Wish Jesus gave us a discorse on what visions mean to him. Certainly the transfiguration prepared Jesus for the cross ahead but in what way? Manzel
I am still thinking about vision. Certainly this fits with the theme of Heaven opening up. It is an epiphany. It is both a divine message adn a communing with God and God's right hand leaders in history. Is this the essential nature of visions, that they bridge the realities of heaven and earrth? Manzel
do visions help propell us toward some pre-planned future or do they give us insight to make better choices or do they renew our courage to face dificult things? Are they largely a means to an end or they the stuff of life itself? "Be Thou My Vision o Ruler of All. Manzel
Peter, James and John, were they really that much a part of an inner circle or were they the names that best evoked authority in the early church?
What if this whole narrative is post resurection legond? What is being sold here? What difference does it make? Is this given as evidence that Jesus is the son of God and that the resurection was foretold?
lots of wonderful thoughts in previous discussion on this text. ie. Anne reminded us that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and Moses represents the law and Elijah the prophets. Tim pointd to t paralell with C.S. Lewis' Chronicals of Narnia and the children not wanting to leave Narnia.
I am wrestling early with this familiar text. I am posting this in a country that finds "sacredness" in land, in places visited by prophets, in shrines. To look out into the barren landscape of flat, dry, treeless, sand and rock it stretches the limits of imagination to see anything here as sacred. But the prophets of several faith groups have wandered this land, and so, for countless followers, it is sacred. Now we have Peter, James, and John. They go up the mountain with Jesus. Recalling history, many mountains were places of divine revelation and were sacred. But this mountain was ordinary. Was...until Jesus revealed his glory on it. Peter's reaction (very human) is to memorialize it, make it special, capture its sacredness. Jesus won't allow it. A valuable lesson emerges, I think. Sacredness in not in clouds, mountains, or even days on a calendar. Christ touching something, be it a mountain, a cloud, a word, a human soul transforms it into "sacred". So many things become sacred to us that are not touched by Christ. When Jesus departs the mountain, it is just a mountain. Until Jesus said, "This is my body and this is my blood," it remains bread and wine. Until He touches my soul, I am merely flesh and bones. Now to transform the listeners. Army Chaplain E, Middle East
Pulpitt in ND - I liked your honest statement last Saturday, that you like the limelight. An interesting, almost hidden, humorous tidbit in our conference newspaper indicated that 80% of preachers rated themselves as "above average." I wonder, how is that possible?? I had to chuckle to myself.
THANKS TO EVERYONE for all the contributions last week; I couldn't have made it without you!.
Off to our fellowship breakfast.
Sally in GA
Peter's remark always makes me think. First, why couldn't he just keep his mouth shut? Why did he find it necessary to speak and ruin this moment? Second, Peter wants this moment to last forever, thus he suggests building something permanent - the three booths. How many of us want some special encounter with God to last forever? I think of our own youth who want to stay at our church camp and not go home. They cry and cry and hug and cry. But Jesus calls us to go back down the mountain. We can not remain with him on the mountain forever. We must do ministry in the real world. We can be in church on Sunday, but we must be prepared for Monday, etc. PH in OH
An early thought . . . I was doing some checking on the roots of the word transfigure, and going back far enough, it is rooted in kneading dough to make bread. I am thinking about working some dough during the sermon, knowing that this is a worthwhile activity because I can see that it will eventually become bread. When the disciples looked at Jesus on the mountain, they could see that the work they were doing was eventually going to become the kingdom -- it's a vision thing, being able to figure a new way of seeing something. Kneading dough without the vision is hard work, and kind of pointless for those wanting an immediate return -- but how valuable it is when we know the outcome. Getting up, not being afraid of following Jesus is hard work, and kind of pointless in an "immediate gratification" world -- but how valuable it is when we know the outcome!
OLAS
For centuries, all over the world mystics have had experiences of the heavens opening or encountering the hivine here on earth. Lives are forever changed by such experiences.
Why do such experiences seem to happen freequently to some people and some long their whole lives to have such an experience? Manzel
Could Jesus have had this kind of experience any time he wanted? Could it be that Jesus often had this kind of experience when he was alone praying?
Remember Moses face too shone brightly when he came down from the Mt. so bright people required him to cover his face. Are there other people in history who had such a glow? Isn't this why angels and saints are often painted with a halo?
For whatever reason, I did not take notice of some wording in the Epistle read on 2/3 until reading it during the service. 1Cor 1:21 "...God was pleased through THE FOOLISHNESS OF WHAT WAS BEING PREACHED to save those who believe." It struck me so funny as I read those words out loud. We all struggle, pray, read, share in order to wax eloquent as we preach. We want every sermon to be profound and how much of what we say sounds foolish?
And here we have Peter once again, rushing in with a rash of words, looking to say something profound, sounding rather foolish.
May God keep us fools for Christ as we prepare this week!
kat in PA
Ah, Chaplain E, good stuff. Maybe its good that its so hard to "transform the listeners." That way, we can't boast about ourselves; it helps us "walk humbly". I've found preaching to be like teaching. A person can go for long stretches feeling like no one "got it" when suddenly out of nowhere, he or she hears from someone about how their words made some problem clear to them and maybe even changed their lives. And that is a priceless gift. Hope you have one of those moments in your unusual "parish" Max in NC
To OLAS - Many a parish pastor would love to have the dough rise in their congregations because they need it. I suppose that if you knead the dough well, perhaps you won't need the dough. It'll rise on its own. (Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up). A stewardship message arises. Army Ch E
Kat in PA OUCH!
I wonder what difference would it make,if this text had never been told? What news does this impart that is not told by another text?
I know that the communion table will have strings of white lights around the Bible covered with quilt batting so it looks like the Bible is resting on a cloud of light.
Nancy-Wi
Do people think having such a visible white aura is just a myth. Are there people around today with such an aura? Would we Christians deny it if there were? What if people really do have auras of wich we are simply unaware?
If people really do have auras as Kirlin photography claims to have proved, then to me that gives more credibility to the transfiguration story. It also says that there are realities that we are missing right here in our everyday worlds at the bottem of the mountain.
Jesus was the greatest healer of all times and he understood people on depths and demensions that we can only begin to imagine. If people have auras, energy fields of all different colors, and Jesus saw these, then it was one more way in which Jesus really knew and understood people.
Does this story reflect the idea that heaven is "up" and somehow a mountain top is closer to heaven?
Could it be that Jesus could have had this experience anywhere but Peter, James and John were more open to it on the mountain top? was it for them that Jesus took them up there?
It this experience and awareness was for their sake, then are not similar mystical experiences meant for us?
What difference does this story make? It really is a good question. What difference did it make if columbus really did discover new land by sailing west? What difference does it make that Franklin's kite was zapped during a lightning storm?
We know there are spiritual realities that excede our awareness. But what if they are part of this world and not just some far off heaven? What if Jesus took steps to show his disciples this?
Manzel,
I think of a vision as kind of like being in a dark room and then experiencing a flash of light- perhaps from a camera strobe of someone flicking the lights on and then off. In the stoke of light we catch a glimspe of what is always there and though it dissapears from our "immediate" sensory vision and continues on in our memories and retelling of it, the reality still remains.
What do you think?
Pr.del in Ia
PH in OH
Peter seems like many "normal" pastors. We too have a tendency to talk and ruin the moment.
3705 o[rama horama {hor'-am-ah} • from 3708; TDNT - 5:371,706; n n • AV - vision 11, sight 1; 12 • 1) that which is seen, spectacle 2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
therevvv
pr.del, Thanks, I love that image. Manzel
considering per.del's metaphore for vision, makes one wonder why we spend so much time stumpling around in the dark doesn't it.
I'm not preaching Sunday ... my deacon-in-training, whom I hope will be ordained in about five months, will be in the pulpit ... but this is one of my favorite texts, so I thought I'd share some thoughts.
In all the commentary on this passage it seems to me that the most overlooked part is the Voice of God. "Oh, yeah," we think, "God says the same thing here that he said the Jordan. OK. We dealt with that when we preached about Jesus's Baptism."
But it ISN'T the same! There are those last three words ... "Listen to him!"
We read this passage and we're very much like Peter. All caught up in the vision and what we think it means and what we should do about it and how we want to preserve it ... and we forget to listen to him!
I think these may be among the most important words in the whole of Scripture! "Listen to him."
Blessings, Eric in KS
More from me ...
This is the first verse of the Exodus lesson which accompanies this Gospel in the Lectionary: (Exod. 24:12) "The LORD said to Moses, 'Come up to me on the mountain, and wait there; and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.'"
I'm thinking that these mountain-top experiences, as lovely and "aha!" and basking-in-the-glory-of-God as they are, are "for instruction" -- the tablets of the Law given Moses, and those great three words "Listen to him" -- both are for instruction.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Dear Sisters and Brothers: I think this is the first time I have been back to DPS since the church I was serving shut its doors at the end of October. I am scheduled to deliver the message at a new twenty- and thirtysomethings church community located in a Knoxville club district. Thus far, this is where I am: The disciples had been with Jesus, seeking the meaning behind the Messiah's coming. Some saw him as the warrior deliverer; others the ultimate rabbi. Now, here they were on the mountaintop and they are given the vision; they are given a taste of what it means to be in midst of glory. In seeking to build shelters they are saying, "Is this as good as it gets?" Jesus knew better then, and he knows better now. We are on a quest for visions, for a taste of God's glory. And each time God brings us to a new experience in his Kingdom and we are tempted to build shelters, believing like the guys in the beer commercials that "It doesn't get any better than this!" But Jesus knew better then, and he knows better now ... When we open ourselves up to the ever-expanding possibilities of life led by the Holy Spirit, we discount spiritual shelter building as a hindrance to God's work.
Eric,
I appreciate your comments on the "voice". We so readily leave the command "listen to him" off our message. It reminds me of another passage of the Gospel according to Matthew that we quote often but only in part, leaving off what is perhaps the most dreaded four-letter word in the English language:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,teaching them to obey all that I commanded you;
In our culture we aren't very interested in listening and much less seriously consider the command to "obey".
Pr. del in Ia
Eric, it's good to hear your voice again, in a matter of speaking. Thanks for the timely reminder that we need to include the last words of this text : Listen to him. After going through the discussion, it seems we are doing the same thing that Peter was tempted to do --- build booths so we would have a place to stay while figuring out what Jesus meant instead of going back down the mountain and being obedient to yhe voice of God. Blessings to all, Carol in OH
Thanks for your comments about LISTENING to Jesus, Eric. Also to OLAS on the etimology of transfiguration. It's early in the week for me to be visiting the site, but I have been trying to think of new approaches to this week's gospel reading & your thoughts have gotten me started at least! Spring semester begins this week and I need to do a little sermon building before I return to class!
StudentPastor in KS
I preached this text last year and was very taken with the blessing the vision must have been to Jesus before he goes to Jer. I talked about God's willingness to give us the visions to sustain our calling. Sometimes in the face of call God seems so silent but often God gives enough of godself to sustain us.
I bless you all in my heart and prayers.
hopinghard
I get a real kick out of this passage. Here we have Jesus in all his glory, Moses and Elijah, two of the most respected Hebrew characters, and good old Peter running off at the mouth. Peter was always the man of action; always the man who must be doing something. “Oh this is good…” “I will make three tents…” “One for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah…” Then the voice of God said, “This is my Son, sit down and be quite!”
Peter learned a good lesson here. There is a time for stillness; there is a time for contemplation, for wonder, for adoration, for awed reverence in the presence of the supreme glory. “Be still and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10). And it may be that sometimes we also are too busy trying to do something when we would be better to be silent, to be listening, to be wondering, to be adoring in the presence of God. There is a time when God would say to us, “This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!” or better yet, “Sit Down And Be Quite!” There is a time when we need to grasp the fact that God truly loves us and wants to communicate with us. There is a time when we need to have mountain top experiences.
Peter learned another valuable lesson as well. True, this must have been one of the high points in Peter’s life. This was a mountaintop experience. It is no coincidence that the Transfiguration happened high on a mountain. But Peter learned that his dwelling place was not on the mountain. There was work to be done. This was Peter, The Rock. As great as the mountaintop was, this was not his home. Jesus touched the disciples and said “Get up and do not be afraid” (Matthew 17:7). And they went down the mountain.
All of us know what it’s like to have a mountain top experience, a time when we experienced God in a profound way. But we know the truth. We were not made for the mountaintop. Life is certainly filled with more valleys that mountaintops. The mountaintops are given to us only to provide strength for the daily ministry in the valley. Our home is not on the mountaintop. Our home is with the people who live in the valleys, who have not seen the bright dazzling light and glory of God. The mountaintop gives us strength for our work in the valley. We spend time on the mountaintops and see the light but our mission then is to go down the mountain and we are to be the light of the world reflecting the love of Jesus.
Early thoughts from Pastor John in CT
Are we to take this text literally? I have to wonder. I guess there is no harm in that, but I have to wonder if we then fail to appreciate the richness of God's wonder being revealed in others day by day, as represented by this passage.
Who is actually "transfigured" in this account? Yes, it is Jesus, but he seems to be a passive player. Essentially for me it is the disciples, who are transfigured. They are the only ones who can describe the change, because Jesus cannot see himself. It requires the disciples to be present, in order to allow the passage to be told. I wonder how often Jesus changed like this and we don't know about it, because no one was there?
And so this passage always draws me to reflect upon the inner person. For a brief moment the disciples were given insight into the inner person of Christ. They were given a window to his soul/spirit. They are privy to the very being of who he is. In that instance or day or week, (Whatever length of time it was. We aren't told)these three disciples were given the opportunity to witness the perfect human being, as God desired him to be. The full culmination of the Law, and the prophets. (Governed and motivated by love) Isn't that what the law and prophets were meant to achieve in Israel.
And we too when we gain deep insight into any other person, and we see God reflected in them, transfiguration often happens for us as well. I have teenage children and occasionally I gain a glimpse of what their innermost thoughts are. For me, these are key moments of glimpsing the image of God in them. They are transfiguring moments for "ME". To gain insight, into the VERY Son of God, simply would have been and still is an awesome moment. That is why I am in this job!!! To see the Law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) reach their culmination in Jesus's life, would have left me speechless and trembling (like the women at the tomb), but I guess Peter is one of those, that terror and fear, impels to chatter.
Our world operates on such superficial levels of intimacy. Even husbands and wives, fail to reach the depth of being that each of us contains.
The transfiguration enables me, to believe that it is possible for others to see God through me. If I am prepared to be vulnerable and open enough. Sadly, my self-preservation hides myself from so many.
I love this man. This man we call Christ. He continues to reveal himself to me as he is transfigured through the pages of the gospels.
Regards to all,
KGB in Aussie.
Listen to him? Listen to him? You've got to be kidding! Why we spend more time listening to Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings and Dan Rather than we do Jesus. I don't have time! I have my job. And they are always changing my schedule! I can't come to a Bible study, I am too busy taking the evening courses and doing the homework. Our class do the light supper accompanying the Lenten study. I don't have time. What if I just give you some money and pastor you can cook and study in my place? I just can't. I don't have the time! I hear this time and time and time again. The guy at the church down the street from mine got so fed up he decided to leave the lectionary and preach the Lenten study from the pulpit. They are then going to discuss the sermon during coffee hour. I am so sick and tired of hearing people have time for other things and church and God are on the bottom of the list. These people would never have gone up the mountain. They are like those in the wedding banquet story who came up with all their excuses. O that these people would hunger and thirst after righteousness. PH in OH
Well said, KGB in Aussie!
You put into words very clearly and coherantly thoughts I have felt. This feels like the heart of the matter. Manzel
Manzel: Thw word used for vision in the Greek means something stared at or preceived clearly.
Harold in Alabama assumptions.
Please allow me to try to gently challenge an assumption expressed here. We all make too many assumptions.
What if we have dismissed people in our hearts long before we dismiss them from the pews?
What if it were the people who were transfigured and suddenly we saw their glory and their relationship to God and to the pillars of our faith? What if we were bowled over to see what we had not recognized before; a sacredness about these stubborn people? What if the sky opened and the very voice of God said, "these are my beloved children, listen to them with an open heart". What if our Lord said to us, "as you have seen the spirit in the least interested of church people, you have seen the spirit in me"? Manzel
Mountain top experiences are wonderful but the scripture stops too soon it should go on and point out that while Peter, James and John were having this fantastic experience all hell was breaking loose down below. These time in our lives are wonderful but real ministry is in the valleys of kife. Every time I go off to work an Emmaus walk or attend a great conference I come home to some crisis. Someone is in the hospital or someone is having problems and I must go immediately. While these three were having the experience of their lives the other nine couldn't handle the ministry while Jesus was away. I think we do our congregations a disservice by not training them to do ministry. Here no one wants to so I can never fully enjoy my experiences because I don't know what I will find when I get back.
Harold in Alabama
Chaplain E, Eric and Pastor John, All your comments weave into a great sermon. I am not preaching this week, but will certainly pass these comments on to the lay person preaching for me. Chaplain E., YES! The mountain becomes scared when touched by God. That is GRACE, is it not? We have been touched by God--graced! All followers need to "sit down and be quiet" so that we can "listen to him." Thanks for these thoughts! Blessings! lp in CO
Like what Ph in Oh is saying. The Exodus text explains that before Moses could go up on the mountain he had to make arrangements for his responsibilities to be met. Others were placed in charge so that he could be released from the daily routine to experience God in a new way. It is possible to make the mountaintop experience a priority, but it takes trust in others, and a willingness to let go of the "importance" of being busy.
Harold in AL said, "Mountain top experiences are wonderful but the scripture stops too soon it should go on and point out that while Peter, James and John were having this fantastic experience all hell was breaking loose down below."
Exactly -- the Exodus story parallels this -- Moses found "hell breaking loose" when he came down and got so damned mad he broke the tablets! Maybe that's what Jesus didn't give these three any tablets....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Why don't we invent a cute colloquialism like "How Peter of you!" when we want to make or build something permanent instead of absorbing the experience of the transient Holy or sitting still in the presence of the great Rabbi and realize we can never grasp the Ultimate we can only be grasped by IT? Until we do, I guess we can just say, "How Martha of you, Peter!" BB in IL
I am ruminating on verse 7. In the Luke and Mark versions of the transfiguration, the comfort that Jesus offered is not recorded. Here were the three, seeing Jesus change before them, seeing Moses and Elijah, overwhelmed by the majesty of God and God's command to listen (listen and learn what thoughts they had about the Christ and the earthly glory melt away). I would imagine they were overwhelmed, confused, in chaos, as they fell to the ground hiding their faces...
But even in that chaos, Jesus comes and touches and reassures.
I may never understand the transfiguration, but I will always seek the comforting of Christ amidst the challenge and the chaos.
jjinchassc
Thank you, Eric, for reminding us to listen in the midst of a highly-visual occasion.
To follow OLAS' train of thought - kneading dough - I'm going to lead the children's SS classes in a "pretzel Sunday" activity, and have chosen worship hymns that refer physical and spiritual bread. The children will then share the pretzels they've made with the cong. during worship. I know that the origin of the pretzel is only legend, but I'm going to use it to teach about prayer (the shape is supposedly the cross-armed gesture for prayer) and God's providing for us, while we twist (store-bought) dough into shape and salt and bake it.
The transfiguration is as much about relationship as it is a revelation of who Jesus is. Our relationship with God, and Jesus as God's son ... and it should illuminate our relationships with each other, too.
Early babblings and ponderings. Sally in GA
I am going to be a pest and ask, "Now what does all this mean to me, who is sitting here in the pew?"
Manzel: I do hear the people saying they have too much to do. Suggestions of how we should respond? I don't want to dump more on their load, however, what of priorities? We talk in Sunday school class and people hate their lives. They hated Christmas because there was too much to do. I do think it is okay for people to say no sometimes. I don't press them or lay guilt. I do try to affirm people and when I hear them feeling guilty, I do say it's okay to say no. PH in OH
17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white.
Speaking of DAZZLING WHITE... I'm reminded of an old "AJAX" laundry detergent commercial where the knight dressed in white gallops through back yards... "ZAPPING" dirt away...
pulpitt in ND
PH in OH,
I'm not a "pop psychology" fan by any means and I always avoid self-help fads. (I was brought up German Lutheran and am now an ELCA pastor). But I'm struck and intriqued with the book just released called "Self Matters". I saw the author on Good Morning America last week and bought the book last weekend and started reading it last night. First impressions: Seems pretty sound so far and I think it would be pretty easy material to weave into an adult ed class to match God given gifts with everyday life.
Might be Transfiguration in the pew material
Pr. del in Ia
Thanks for all the discussion so far- very helpful. I don't think that any one has pointed this out yet-the word that Matthew uses for transfigured/transformed is always found in the passive- In other words, you can't transfigure yourself! It is something that is done to you and for you-it is a gift. The origin of the word from kneading dough is helpful-bread machines not withstanding, dough can't knead itself. I'm working with the image that we can't contain Jesus (Like Peter, we try -Yancey's "The Jesus I Never Knew" makes this point well)Even our language about such "boundary events" is lacking. We can use graphic language (my favorite here is "Jesus went Supernova") but it still doesn't contain him. Praise God, for only the uncontained Jesus can contain all our lives. RevGilmer in Texarkana
Manzel said..."I am still thinking about vision. Certainly this fits with the theme of Heaven opening up. It is an epiphany. It is both a divine message adn a communing with God and God's right hand leaders in history. Is this the essential nature of visions, that they bridge the realities of heaven and earrth?"
I still remember the first "widow" I spoke to after the death of her husband... he died several years ago..
It took a while for her to open up to the fact that "he visits her - from time to time... at night... stands at the foot of her bed. Am I NUTTS? she asked"...
Now, before you think she WAS "NUTTS" ...I knew her to be a very sound, faithfilled person.
I did not "drop my jaw" when she suggested such a thing... it seemed to bring peace to her Spirit. "Was she actually visited by her dead husband?" I have no way of knowing... still, she sensed his presence was still in her life. I don't think that was such a bad thing...
I affirmed her experience... since then, I've asked others who have admitted having similar experiences...
I don't know how we could "laugh" or "doubt" that this could happen...
after the example Christ gives us in this story... verse 9 almost makes it sound like he told them to keep quiet so those witnesses wouldn't be shunned by others who would think.. they're nutts, or they've had too much to drink.
or am I way off?
pulpitt in ND
Thanks Sally...
and the rest of you...
Our DS today... mentioned how in another meeting, one pastor seemed so NEEDY... I'm like, "maybe I should be quiet"... sometimes I'm way too honest...
A humble servant among you...
OK, maybe NOT - still, I don't "think" I come off arogant... just a little paranoid!
I'm sure you all think so too! ;?)
pulpitt in ND
PH in OH...
As a Peter type personality... sometimes I talk, and think later... sometimes I have the need to tell my story... not everyone has this "gift"...
thus this note...
Others have the gift of listening...
thanks to all those silent supporters out there...
with grins,
pulpitt in ND
Pulpitt, I've talked to several widows with similar experiences, One in particular left a great impression because she had always been afraid to be alone. After he died she suddenly found a peace in living in that farm house alone because he appeared to her at the foot of her bed with comfort and assurance. To me, she was the one transfigured. Manzel
Like most pastors, I have been with parishoners when they were dying, some of them brighten up are filled with energy and joy and speak to loved ones who have previously departed. Some might say they are hallucinating, some might call it a psychological crutch. I never felt like it was my place to judge them but I always felt privelidged to have families share those momemts with me. Manzel
Hi all what if we paraphrase this, "And each time God brings us to a new experience in his Kingdom and we are tempted to build shelters, believing like the guys in the beer commercials that "It doesn't get any better than this!" But Jesus knew better then, and he knows better now ... When we open ourselves up to the ever-expanding possibilities of life led by the Holy Spirit, we discount spiritual shelter building as a hindrance to God's work.
And each time God brings us to a new experience in the kingdom, we are tempted to stay in our pews, with our group, and believe "This is as good as it gets!" Instead of opening up and embracing new ministries we cling to our ministry building for "dear life". Nancy -Wi
Nancy, you go girl! I mean it sounds like you are on a roll. so more. Manzel
Thank you for all the wonderful thoughts this week. A comment on some:
With Moses and Elijah there, we are linked to the law and the prophets; but God tells us to now listen to him - Jesus. The law and the prophets were God's gift to us, but Jesus fulfills both.
Also, who was really changed on the mountain top? Who is really changed when Christ shines in and through our lives?
TwoRevs in SC
I have a question, which I apologize is not lectionary, but one of my congregatants keeps asking and I don't know the answer. My member thinks one of my Anglican friends, could help. Her questions are as follows...which side of the church is the gospel side and what is the other side called. And what date, month is Rogation Sunday. If you do not wish to reply here than please email me at tolmie@bmts.com Thank you Rev. JJ in Ontario
Upon further reflection, the imagery may be worth drawing into the sermon. In the Old Testament, mountains and clouds were frequently places of revelation of God's will/presence/word.
Once again, a mountain and a cloud to reveal God's will. Mountains denote might, strength, power, solidarity, and majesty. Clouds denote hiddenness, fog, perhaps even secrecy or lostness. Peter and James and John now see a glimpse of the majesty, the power of Christ and are in awe. Then a voice out of the mist, the cloud which reveals a very important truth that, as Jesus says, must remain a secret for now. And the fear, oh the fear at hearing the voice of God declare the truth, "This is My Son, the beloved; with whom I am well pleased; listen to him!"
Had Jesus not been there and these three had stepped onto a mountain in the presence of God perhaps they would have been consumed. Had Jesus not been there, the voice in the cloud would surely have declared to sinful humanity, "You are not my children, I am not well pleased!" Had Jesus not been there, who would have touched these three and said, "Do not be afraid!"?
Once again, it is the presence of Christ, the touch of Christ, the voice of Christ that lifts us out of fear, puts us back on our feet and walks with us down the mountain, no longer commanded to remain silent.
In the military we have OPORDs to order operations into motion. Embedded in there are the commander's intent, the friendly situation, the enemy situation, the objectives, the tasks, the support. The disciples were given a "Be prepared" mission. Hold off until the resurrection. Then tell the world. We all have the commander's intent. We know the friendly situation, the Holy Spirit's work in the church. We know the enemy situation (last Sunday's Gospel). We know the support systems to accomplish the mission. The order is given and the commander is with us. Army Ch E, Middle East
Rev. JJ in Ontario, This might be helpful Deke in Texas - Pace e Bene
Rogation Sunday is celebrated on the 5th Sunday after Easter - this year will be on Sunday, May 05, 2002.
Here's an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Keep in mind that this was written in the late 19th century.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13110b.htm
These definitions come from St. Paul's in Augusta, Ga.
http://www.saintpauls.org/glossary.htm
Gospel Side - an older usage for designating the interior of a church; originally, the Gospel Side was the north side [the left side facing the altar]. See Epistle Side.
Epistle Side - the right side of a church when facing the altar; this older usage is now no longer accurate in churches reading the gospel from the right side pulpit. See Gospel Side.
This is an exerpt from a sermon several years ago. The illustration appealed to me because I'm a math teacher during the week. It is a very unusual sermon illustration - and perhaps too whimsical for some congregations.
The psalmist summed it up: God is all powerful. He numbered the stars. He created the land we live on. He is so overwhelmingly great that we can't even begin to conceive him.
Carl Sagan wrote a book called Cosmos. In this book, he told a little story to try to explain what a fourth dimension would be like to us. Imagine we inhabit a place where everything is perfectly flat. Some of us are squares, some are triangles, some are hexagons. We scurry about, in and out of our flat buildings, occupied with our flat businesses. Everyone has width and length, but no height whatever. We know about left & right and forward & backward, but have no clue what so ever about up & down, except for flat mathematicians. They say, "Listen, its very easy. Imagine left & right, imagine forward & back. Okay? Now imagine another dimension, at right angles to the other two." And we say, "What are you talking about. Point to that third dimension, where is it?" The mathematicians, disheartened, amble off. Nobody listens to mathematicians.
Every square creature in Flatland sees another square as merely a short line segment, the side of the square nearest him. He can see the other side of the square by going around, but the inside of a square is forever mysterious, unless some terrible accident or autopsy breaches the sides and exposes the interior parts.
One day, a 3-dimensional creature, a pencil say, comes to Flatland, hovering above it. It can see inside closed rooms, it can see inside the flat creatures in the closed rooms. In a gesture of friendliness, the visitor says, "Hello, square" The wretched square looks about his closed house and sees no one. What is worse, the greeting, coming from above, seems to be emanating from his own flat body or from the air in the room. "Aunt Rhombus was a little touched in the head, perhaps it runs in the family", he mumbles to himself.
Exasperated at being judged a figment of the imagination, the pencil creature descends into Flatland. Now a 3D creature can exist in Flatland, only one cross-section at a time as it penetrates, only the points intersecting the surface of the plane. The pencil appears at first as a point, and then as a progressively larger circle. The square sees a point appearing in a closed room in his two dimensional world, slowly growing into a good-sized circle. A circle he understands, a whole family of them lives next door. But this circle appeared from nowhere and keeps changing size.
Rejected, the pencil flicks the square and sends it aloft, fluttering and spinning into that mysterious third dimension. The square can make no sense of what is happening, it is totally outside his experience. Eventually he realizes that he is viewing Flatland from a peculiar vantage point, "above". He can see inside closed rooms. He can see into his flat fellows. Finally, like a falling leaf, the square slowly descends to the surface. To his friends, he has unaccountably disappeared, then materialized out of nowhere. When they ask him what happened, he mutters, "I think I was up". They pat him on his sides, convinced that he is indeed an odd fellow.
The square could not conceive of the true nature of the pencil. He could not understand that the pencil could touch the very center of him. He could not understand that the pencil could draw an identical square and then rub it out.
Peter and James and John didn't understand what they were seeing when Jesus was transfigured on the mountain. This event was totally outside their realm of experience. Like us, the disciples could only get a glimpse, a glimmer, of the true nature of Jesus. When Jesus came to earth, it was the first time man had ever seen the face of God. And man could only understand this experience from his limited viewpoint. We are mere images of God. We cannot begin to understand the true nature, the complexities of God.
Like the inhabitants of Flatland, we cannot conceive of God being able to see inside of us. We get so wrapped up in ourselves that all we see is what is directly affecting us. Then our own concerns become so overwhelming that we end up exaggerating our own importance.
Woops - forgot to sign off. Kim in Arkansas
PS I think Carl Sagan was an atheist - he would probably be appalled that one of his stories provided a sermon illustration. I think he died several years ago.
Thank you all for your many thoughts this week... a few of my own... I too am struck by Jesus in v. 9 calling this event a vision. I may approach it as such with the congregation - who do not understand the scriptural significance of the mointaintop, bright light, glowing face, the voice from the cloud, and such. Those elements would have great meaning for MT's readers who might have a common memory/tradition of Moses and the Exodus. I look at the make up of the event as something with familiar pieces for them. For us, a meaningful "vision" might include an image of Wachington crossing the Delaware, Paul Revere's ride - things that are a common memory for us as Americans. We, however have few such ties to the Exodus and the prophets. Anyway, the Jerome commentary points out that a vision is an "externalization of an inner spiritual event." This helps me approach the transfiguration as an encounter with the Holy, or the sacred. And I think everyone could pont to such an experience in their life. This is not psychology - it is much more. Such moments are momentary (we can't preserve them like Peter would like to by building booths) and we must go on with ordinary life (come down from the mountain of the encounter). They do help us greatly in life down in the valleys, though. What's more, the experience cannot really be understood by those who have not had the same one. My experience of seeing the northern lights years ago when I was grieving a loss and gazing at the night sky,pleading with God for help to cope - was an encounter with the Holy. It means nothing to you, but everything to me. You can, however, understand that such experiences are real - and you have your own if you think about it. Peter's 2nd letter is the only non-gospel reference to this event. While he may not have written that letter, it does record his testimony and the significance of the event - showing Jesus' glory. What matters is not what occurred, but what it meant. Did the transfiguration literally, physically happen as described? Does it matter? Jim in CT.
Thank you all for your many thoughts this week... a few of my own... I too am struck by Jesus in v. 9 calling this event a vision. I may approach it as such with the congregation - who do not understand the scriptural significance of the mointaintop, bright light, glowing face, the voice from the cloud, and such. Those elements would have great meaning for MT's readers who might have a common memory/tradition of Moses and the Exodus. I look at the make up of the event as something with familiar pieces for them. For us, a meaningful "vision" might include an image of Wachington crossing the Delaware, Paul Revere's ride - things that are a common memory for us as Americans. We, however have few such ties to the Exodus and the prophets. Anyway, the Jerome commentary points out that a vision is an "externalization of an inner spiritual event." This helps me approach the transfiguration as an encounter with the Holy, or the sacred. And I think everyone could pont to such an experience in their life. This is not psychology - it is much more. Such moments are momentary (we can't preserve them like Peter would like to by building booths) and we must go on with ordinary life (come down from the mountain of the encounter). They do help us greatly in life down in the valleys, though. What's more, the experience cannot really be understood by those who have not had the same one. My experience of seeing the northern lights years ago when I was grieving a loss and gazing at the night sky,pleading with God for help to cope - was an encounter with the Holy. It means nothing to you, but everything to me. You can, however, understand that such experiences are real - and you have your own if you think about it. Peter's 2nd letter is the only non-gospel reference to this event. While he may not have written that letter, it does record his testimony and the significance of the event - showing Jesus' glory. What matters is not what occurred, but what it meant. Did the transfiguration literally, physically happen as described? Does it matter? Jim in CT.
Rev. JJ in Ontario: Supposedly, the altar faces East. Whether it does or not, consider it such, and then the Gospel is to be read to the North, to those who are still in the cold and darkenss of their sin. The Epistle reading is given in the "sunny South" where those people have already been enlightened by the Gospel, and are now on to more gorwth in the faith. (For the first time in my life or ministry, my current congregtion has the pulpit on the north side.) JRW in OH
I have seen a vision.... Have you every looked over a congregation and seen the faces in ways that no stranger could see them? It happened to me last Sunday. A photograph taken at that moment might very well look like one of those posed and stiff sepia early 20th century photos, without life or interest... But the vision is the love and the struggle and the passion that the beholder knows are part of each wonderful and special person... a vision that sees them in a new light... The light of God's love? I think so. Is that not perhaps a vision of God saying these are my beloved children?
I have seen a vision.... Have you every looked over a congregation and seen the faces in ways that no stranger could see them? A photograph taken at that moment might very well looked like one of those posed and stiff sepia early 20th century photos, without life or interest... But the vision is the love and the struggle and the passion that the beholder knows are part of each wonderful and special person... a vision that sees them in a new light... In the light of God's love? I believe so.
Is that not perhaps a vision of God saying these are my beloved children? How awesome is our job! even for those 20% or so who are notabove average preachers.
Father Jane in MA
Kim in Arkansas,
You might be interested to know that Sagan took his idea from a little book written a hundred years ago by Edwin A. Abbott called FLATLAND: A Romance of Many Dimensions. Abbott was an English clergyman, Shakespearean scholar and amature mathmetician. Wonderful book.
I once used the ideas during a sermon and thoroughly confused my congregation! Sometime later in a lectionary group I mentioned the ideas... my friends said, "That's good, but of course you can't preach it!" Hmmmmmm
Bro Ken
Thinking about Peter's determination to "do something" instead of just "being in the presence" reminded me of myself. By nature I want to "fix" situations and people. Sometimes this is OK. Often it is not posible. Often it is not even desirable.
For instance- there have been times when I was nervous about what I would do when I got to the home of a newly bereaved wife only to find that just my presence there (as a symbol of God's presence) was what made the difference. What I did, what I said was not nearly as important.
At other times in counseling situations I have gone to great lengths to help a person define all the options to solving whatever problem they are facing. Then I finally figure out that they are not willing or not ready to do anything. They just need someone to be miserable with them-- to be sure that God cares enough to be with them in their pain.
There's a lot to be said for just being and not doing-- but its hard-- its more in our nature to fix it and go on to something else. We don't like to take the time to just be.
joinva
I'm going to incorporate the epistle's ideas about the morning star rising in our hearts. We, as Christ's disciples, are fed and sustained on manna AND, in the presence of greatness. This is usually one of my favorite sermons to preach all year. Maybe I'm trying to over-think it this year.
One time, I did a take-off on David Letterman's, "My brush with greatness," and I've told about some of my brushes, culminating in a book I checked out of the library once, with a penciled-in name, "D. Tutu." I'd asked the librarians if there could be any other D. Tutu, and she said, that he'd been on the campus (i'd already graduated) those weeks - apparently, he was researching lectionary texts, too. Punchline: my country churches had no idea who "D. Tutu" was!!!!! So, I had to explain it. Lesson learned: don't assume anything. Talk about an otherwise-good illustration falling flat!!!!
Anyways, Shalom, y'all - off to pick up my young 'uns. Sally in GA
Vision: horama, hor'-am-ah; something gazed at, i.e. a spectacle (espec. supernat.):--sight, vision. (from Strongs Hebrew Greek Dictionary)
Does the "Listen to Him" refer to Jesus telling them not to tell anyone until after His resurrection?
Why is this only found in the Synopitic Gospels? What did this mean to the original hearers?
Personally, I find it hard to believe that the meaning of the Transfiguration of Jesus is found in finding the Divine in others...looking for the aura of another. Sounds like a bunch of new age hokey pokey to me.
I find it hard to believe that Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote this to convey to the original audience that they have a glimmer of Divinity in them. Personally, I think it had more to do with professing just who this Jesus of Nazareth was...His Divinity and not theirs...and hence not ours as well.
John near Pitts
A thought in relation to Army Chaplain E's insights about sacredness: In our western culture it seems not to be places visited by prophets or even places where the divine itself is encountered that become enshrined, but rather places where we have encountered death, especially violent and untimely death. The fence outside Columbine High School, the mounds of flowers outside Buckingham Palace after Princess Diana's death, or the numerous 9/11 displays all come to mind all echo Peter's desire to hold onto something sacred. Am I wrong or are these sponaneous shrines not a fairly recent phenomenon? Could it be we have come into a time where death itself is the only experience remaining to many with the power to awaken us to the ultimate limits of our existence and, perhaps, the transcendant possibilities of God? Instinctively we recognize something sacred about life in the context of death and we seek to preserve it. If all this is so, it becomes truly critical that we "listen to him" whose words shepherd us toward God and which reveal the sacredness of all creation in a context of abundant living.
Jim in IA
I just recently watched the movie "Family Man" starring Nicolas Cage and Tea Leoni. The Clarencesque angel figure tells the Cage character near the end of the movie, "A glimpse by definition is an impermanent thing." We can't live on the mountian. That is just a glimpse. But once we have viewed something it changes our very charater. The glimpse of the Transfiguration. Had to change them. The say nothing is for them. But like Moses it wasn't in their speaking but their presence that the glory of God would show. The Good News is that we can tell others. The bad news is that we are to often like Peter and say silly things.
SunCityREV
I just recently watched the movie "Family Man" starring Nicolas Cage and Tea Leoni. The Clarencesque angel figure tells the Cage character near the end of the movie, "A glimpse by definition is an impermanent thing." We can't live on the mountian. That is just a glimpse. But once we have viewed something it changes our very charater. The glimpse of the Transfiguration. Had to change them. The say nothing is for them. But like Moses it wasn't in their speaking but their presence that the glory of God would show. The Good News is that we can tell others. The bad news is that we are to often like Peter and say silly things.
SunCityREV
Many years ago I did some study on "mystical religious experiences". It seems that there is a universal set of qualities reported by persons having had a mystical religious experience. Now I remember only a few details: there is a deep and holy sense of oneness and unity with all time and space ; the passage or barriers of time are not perceived; and speaking about the experience is nearly impossible--descriptions coming out in paradoxical terms, ex: it was a full void. Because speaking about the event is so difficult and in our time so fraught with incredulity, most folks simply keep their experiences private. I was teaching about mystical religious experiences to a group of women. When they heard permission to speak about their experiences without being discounted, many potent and life-changing stories were told from this group of otherwise very "ordinary" Christian women. My hunch is that there is a sustaining but silent treasure in the lives of some/ many? of our congregants, "transfiguring moments". Perhaps it is best left as a silent treasure, else we start seeking the experience and make it a measure of some spiritual prestige... socalb
About the "vision"-
It's been said that the transfiguration is an external rendition of the internal understanding and insight the apostles had in coming to know the Christ and identifying Jesus as the Messiah. AEA
Bro Ken- I did a search for Edwin A Abbott and Flatland and found the entire text of the book on the internet. It is hilarious! His discourse on women had me falling out of my chair laughing. Watch out for our pointed ends! Kim in Arkansas
Thank you to Deke in Texas and JRW for your help, I have passed it on...just for clarification, my husband is a Carl Sagan fan and I just asked him if Sagan was an atheist, and he says he did not believe so, he merge the science with the belief he had, at most he might be described as agnostic....and in fact (this is my note, if that is Sagan's explanation of the fourth dimension - it is a very theological discussion as well as philosophical discussion...ie how can a human grasp the understand God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit...if we like the square have no hook to hang our understanding of the workings of God...but does that beginning of understanding come through Christ's life with us and like the pencil entering the world which is ours and opening the ideas for us to at least begin to ask questions about or the very least at least know we will never be able to understand by are capable of giving thanks, praise and responses of grateful living. Or am I going to far...? I have a title..."Until..." thank you to the analogy of dough, and thank you also to the Chaplain E, wonderful reminder. Thank you all for the wonderful discussion, and thanks again for the help for my congregant. Rev. JJ in Ontario
Sally in Ga ... and to anyone else who uses her idea ... be sure to chew carefully. Trust me on this! -- George W. in DC
Could it be that the reason Jesus told these three disciples not to tell anyone is because he knew that they didn't? After the Transfiguration Jesus begins his final journey to Jerusalem and the Cross. However, they are still looking for someone for Jesus to restore King David's Israel, an earthly kingdom. He conveys to them the Messianic Secret, but they still don't understand. But then why should they understand? What they have been raised to expect is a Messiah that would save only Jews and restore only Israel.
Jesus tells them to 'tell no one', because they don’t understand or even know what to tell yet… but they will!
MJ in Minnesota
Could it be that the reason Jesus told these three disciples not to tell anyone is because he knew that they didn't? After the Transfiguration Jesus begins his final journey to Jerusalem and the Cross. However, they are still looking for someone for Jesus to restore King David's Israel, an earthly kingdom. He conveys to them the Messianic Secret, but they still don't understand. But then why should they understand? What they have been raised to expect is a Messiah that would save only Jews and restore only Israel.
Jesus tells them to 'tell no one', because they don’t understand or even know what to tell yet… but they will!
MJ in Minnesota
John near Pitts:
Well, perhaps an answer to what this meant to the original hearers might be: For one thing this could be proof for the resurrection? Jesus is glorified, but who is with him Moses and Elijah (two dead men, but who are now seen alive). Another possibility is that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. Matthew is constantly into fulfillment. I agree that we need to think elsewhere than where the discussion has gone this week. I have struggled all week with this text having preached it for 22 years. I saw something on Illustrations.com from Fred Craddock. He suggests that we simply let the scripture tell itself without illustrations from us. I have come to the conclusion that we can not describe the glory of God no matter how hard we try. The glory of God is something that we have to experience for ourselves. Our experience of the divine might be at a church camp, during communion, seeing God in nature or some other mountaintop experience. I think there was a candy bar that was labeled, "Indescribably delicious." I am thinking of using that for a sermon title. For that is how we experience God. I also saw this morning that someone wrote, the good news is that unlike these disciples, we can go and tell what we have seen/experienced with others. PH in OH
Peter wants to build and stay on the mountain top in the presence of God. But he is given a vision to go forth and make disciples of all nations. We all would like to stay in our comfort zones but God gives us a vision to get out of our comfort zones (get out of the boat, for Peter) and put that vision into action. Just thoughts, Harrell from Texas
They were everywhere, at least there among the stores, the place where the tourist would come to gladly part with funds which could only be imagined for most in this beautiful but very poor community. Children, children around every corner, on every busy street intersection, standing outside every restaurant. Waiting with hands out and faces upturned. Their dirty faces and shoeless feet punctuated their lack, the tools of their trade, if you will. They entered this movement of the desperate, knowing that the deep sadness in their eyes and the burrowed brows of those whom never had enough would achieve their purpose – a few coins which might bring another meal, another bit of brick for their piecemeal home, another day of existence.
And in each exchange there was always the yearning pleads in delivered in broken English learned for survival – “Please senor, please” punctuated by the small moans and the hunger filled grimaces. Each performance was similar to the last. Each exchange had the repetition of a fine honed ballet, a well choreographed dance meant to ensure that the visitor, arms full of packages to be delivered to some far off home where there family and friends did not wonder if whether on this day, they might have enough to eat, meant to ensure that the stranger would part with the few coins.
In each movement, the store owners might angrily appear on the scene, shooing the children away with loud gestures and wild movements. “Be gone, “ they would shout. “You are wreaking my business and irritating my customers! Be gone!” “¡Usted inflige mi negocio y molestos a mis clientes! ¡Sea ido!”
In each scene, smiling shoppers would glare down upon the little ones or stare blankly ahead, afraid to make contact with the pleading eyes. In each act, the proprietors of restaurants would firmly close the window blinds shutting out the tiny faces pressed against the glass, looking in from the outside streets, and would then turn to well fed patrons and apologize for their discomfort. “Have a nice meal, senor e senora.”
It was that way for all the visitors to this beautiful place of Cuzco, Peru. It was that way for us. And it was difficult not to find myself getting a little frustrated as this small pack of dirty children moved about our feet as some single living organism, a mass which kept shifting and changing, causing us to stumble and slow our progress as we made our way from the Pizzeria back to our hotel several blocks away.
There dance was relentless, their hands out, begging for the smallest trinket. And perhaps, because we might have been a bit more gentle then most, their assault was constant, as we tried to move down the street. Looking away did not help. Telling them no, “No solis para nino,” did not help. Carefully pushing them aside did not help. Their actions were persistent.
Yet one of the members of our small tribe did not push them away. Warren slowed his walk and bent his large frame so that he might get closer to the small faces which were looking up at us. So that he might touch the heads of the small ones, so that he might caress the cheeks of the infant hanging from the back of the dirty twelve year old caretaker, so that Warren might converse in the soft voice of a child, so that he might enter the dance.
So that he might, at least for the moment, make space for these little ones. Warren did this even though the hour was very late and we were very tired. He did this even though the group consensus was to hurry back to the warmth of our rooms. He did this even though the mist had turned to a drizzle and then to a steady rain.
We arrived at the hotel, it was after midnight. And the children, shivering from the cold followed us in. The hotel manager began to shoo them away, but then paused, noticing that on this night, there was a different dynamic taking place. His angry face softened as he looked at Warren gently talking to these small ones. He moved to the rear of the hotel, to the area of the dining room. Soon he returned beckoning us to where he had set a table with warm mild and hot toasts.
We all gathered around the table and began to pass the elements around. Bread and warm milk, bread and warm milk, the Body of Christ, broken for you, the blood of Christ, poured out for you. And as the children ate their toast and drank their milk, the glow of the Kingdom shown about us. In every face, in every movement of their small hands, a transfiguration occurred. In every bit of conversation, justice was proclaimed and the law was upheld. In every touch of their skin on ours, the voice of God echoed across the heavens, exploded out of the ages, and was birthed anew. “These are my children … this is my son.” And around a table in the rear of a non descript hotel, on this night, on this night at least, children were simply allowed to be children.
And their in the presence of these small ones, and there as they opened themselves to us, and there as they shared and laughed and ate and hoped, we were allowed to touch the Christ.
“Do not be afraid,” the voice says. “Do not be afraid,” for it is only Jesus. It is always Jesus.
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
Hi, everyone!
Great discussions... I've been gone for two days to a short pre-Lenten clergy retreat ... only eight of us were there, but it was a great experience. Most of the time spent sitting quietly together as our spiritual director lead us on guided meditations/contemplations on three of the traditional "sorrows" of Mary: the loss of the 12-y.o. Jesus (before he was found in the Temple), the removal of Jesus' body from the cross, and the burial of Jesus' body. Very powerful stuff. Really underscored for me the "listening" part of this lesson.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I am somewhat intrigued by the fact that not everyone gets a "mountain top" experience. The 9 disciples left behind don't get this faith booster, but Jesus blasts them for their lack of faith and inability to heal the posessed boy. I like Mark's version, where he tells them that "this kind can come out only through prayer."
Perhaps this illustrates that if we don't retreat with Jesus, if we don't climb the mountain of prayer regularly, we will not be emposered for ministry. We can't do effective and sustained ministry under our own power.
We have to get out of the valley; but we also have to return.
Just a thought.
RevKinOK
Do any of you (those who are old enough, like your's-truly) remember the folk singer Sandy Denny (I think she was Scottish) ... she sang with Fairport Convention for a while and then went out on her own. She died of a cerebral aneurism in 1978 at the age of 31. In 1972 she released an album entitled "Sandy". On it was a song entitled "Listen, Listen" which always makes me think of the Transfiguration and of the Crufixion. I don't think Denny had any of that in mind, but readers of poetry and listeners of music bring to the words/lyrics their own associations and those are mine.
These are the lyrics of the song (double slashses, //, indicate line breaks):
---begin---
A young boy rose his pretty face // All for to feel the salty spray // When storms are musterin', they say // I'll come and take you all away.
I am a traveler by trade // I only have what I have made // A fortune teller, too, they say // And I can take you all away
Listen, Listen to him, do // He is the one who is for you // Listen, they say, // He'll come and take us all away // He.........
And over there, a young man stays // Upon the rocks so rough and gray // Watchin' the boy, watchin' the day, // Thinkin' of how he came to be // A young man, he.... // He is so real, // And never more to go astray // He is a failure now, they say, // And he can take himself away.
Listen, Listen to him, do // He is the one who is for you // Listen, they say, // He'll come and take us all away. // He.........
---end---
Obviously, the refrain, "Listen, Listen to him, do...." brings to mind the event in this Sunday's Gospel. The lines about the young man being a failure who can "take himself away" remind me of the rejection by and taunting from the crowd at the Crucifixion.
I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but I thought I'd share it.
Blessings, Eric in KS
RevGilmer in Texarkana, Good point, you can transfigure yourself alone. Maybe that is the significance of prayer in the Luke version. What does it mean that Matthew leaves out the prayer? This connects with last weeks walking humbly with God. Just coughing and sneezing, while thinking out loud. Nancy-Wi
Sally next week I am going to do your prezel thing (can't make them)for children's time. It fits well.
Not recognizing who D. Tutu may not be such an awful thing.
Excerpted from a recent article:
Although a retired Anglican archbishop from South Africa, Tutu until recently taught at Emory University's United Methodist seminary in Atlanta and has been a frequent speaker and icon for American churches. Tutu's role in opposing his nation's apartheid system was often heroic. And as an advocate for reconciliation there he has been admirable. But his response to September 11 was morally numbing.
In a recent interview, Tutu warned against calling anyone a "terrorist," which can "depersonalize" or "demonize" a "child of God." Tutu likened the victims of September 11 to the Japanese at Hiroshima, the victims of American napalm in Vietnam, the Iraqis during the Persian Gulf War, Nicaraguans during the U.S.-backed Contra insurgency, Chileans who backed assassinated President Salvador Allende ("assassinated through the machinations of the CIA," Tutu alleged), and Angolans who endured a civil war between the government and the formerly U.S. backed rebel Jonas Savimbi.
Although a theologian and an archbishop, Tutu was seemingly unable to differentiate morally between any of these historical events and the terrorist strikes of September 11. His list of international crimes correlated almost perfectly with the secular international left's portrayal of an aggressive and hegemonic America.
Tutu ended his interview by admonishing both Osama bin Laden and George W. Bush, not distinguishing between the two: "Remember you are a child of God and behave like one." He assured his interviewer that, "People don't hate the U.S.; [but] but too many have suffered from the effects of U.S. foreign policy."
One question about the term, "mountaintop." Does it not receive its very definition from the Biblical events that occur on mountains? Michelle
One question about the term, "mountaintop." Does it not receive its very definition from the Biblical events that occur on mountains? Michelle
Has anyone thought about the idea of change as part of the central truth, here? It seems quite clear that part ofthis text is about change: The change (tranfiguration)of Jesus, the change in the disciples, the desire to hold on to the past (or present as Peter suggests) so that we don't have to change.
I note that Paul tells us that when we encounter the divine, we are forever changed! 2 Cor 5:16ff applies. In rural (and some urban) settings the mantra is "We've never done it that way before!" Better yet, the chant is "I/We will never change!"
How sad it is that Christian folk forget that Jesus is about change. Once we have met Christ, we become a "new creation." Being new is scary. Therefore, it's difficult for us to "Listen to him" when he calls us out of our comfort zones. We become like the righ young ruler who walked away from Jesus because he calls for too much ________.
I recall the story of Jesus with the blind man. When the man kept calling to Jesus, Jesus had one question for him, "What do you really want from me?" One commentary, I can't remember which, notes that Jesus was asking the man, "Do you realize what's going to happen if I give you your sight? It means that EVERYTHING CHANGES!!!!!!!!"
When we are recreated in His image, EVERYTHING CHANGES! ANd no matter how much we want to stay put in and bask in the sunlight of His face, we must move on. Like some of you have already noted, we must "Listen to him" and OBEY.
Then, we become transfigured, too.
Steve in NC
For those who struggle to interpret beyond a literal sense, I would suggest that there is a lot of metaphor in this passage. It would therefore suggest to me, that this wasn't exactly as the event was, but what it was like. I can then say, that the gospel is not written for historical purposes only, but for the spiritual purpose of allowing everyone, to gain an appreciation of this experience for themselves.
May I offer my thoughts on why Jesus asks the disciples not to tell anyone until after his death. I think there are a number of different reasons, why Jesus seems to regularly tell people not to tell others about him. Each has a particular and specific purpose and intention behind it. So each case must be treated on its own merits.
The first answer I would offer, is that it could be simply an editor's ploy to try to cover why it was that this material was not presented in evidence at Jesus's trial, or to suggest that the disciples were bound not to release it until after his resurrection. The fact that they didn't realise, he was going to rise from the dead, would suggest that this is an addition of some kind, and that Jesus may have said something like, "You will appreciate this experience more, after I have died"
And so I think there is more to it than that.
The first is that when we uncover intimate aspects about people, these are very precious, revealed secrets. These are not things you spread around to everyone indiscriminately. They are for a few distinct and privileged people with whom we are prepared to share ourselves more fully.
To reveal these things about others, is to betray the trust they have shown in you, by revealing them in the first place. That is one of the reasons why clergy are bound to confidentiality.
The second is, that until a person dies there is a kind of boundary that exists, that prohibits us talking about everything about their life freely. Once a person has died however, then their whole life comes under scrutiny and every aspect of it, can begin to be revealed more fully. I often see this in funeral interviews where a mother and child will be discussing a father, and there will be things that are revealed that neither knew in their own relationship with that person.
Surely this is what we refer to as the spirit of the person, being fully revealed.
I believe Jesus said something about this, when he says to the disciples that unless he goes away the Holy Spirit cannot come to them. And further that the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is the receiving of that revelatory moment, when we fully appreciate who Jesus is.
After his death, and consequent resurrection, the disciples undoubtedly discussed his life and every aspect of their relationship with him. The transfiguration, would have then become extremely relevant, as they recognised his exceptional qualities and being.
Jesus orders them not to tell, because they have been given a privileged insight, because they had built a relationship of trust with Christ. Others, in order to believe, must arrive at the same place.
That essentially is the mystery of the Christian faith. We cannot demand Christ reveal himself to us. We cannot demand even a sign. He promises only to give one sign - the sign of Jonah, being reborn after death. Rather, He comes when we offer ourselves to him in a trusting manner.
Well these are my thoughts, for what their worth.
Regards to all.
Hope you have a marvellously transfiguring week-end.
KGB
"This is my beloved son..." God reveals once again his son, just as he did at Jesus' Baptism in the River Jordan, this day he does so to Peter, James, and John. As a result Peter is ready to build booths for all three; Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, yet in the midst of Peter's words God breaks in and declares not only who Jesus is, but that they are also to listen to him. Does this mean they are to no longer listen to Moses and Elijah, no longer direct their lives by the law and prophets, but now they are to listen Jesus and to Jesus only?
MJ in Minnesota
I thank Eric in KS for his comment that God's words 'listen to him' are important - and my mind goes to other important words, this time on Mary's lips @ the wedding at Cana 'Do as he says.'
Big Tone Birmingham UK
Idea for Sunday: I am going to get a can of store bought dough and have the kids kneed it during the children's message. Then it will be put in the oven and it will be ready to serve for communion later in the service. Sam in SC
Such a wealth of good thoughts and insights! Has no one else ever had an experience of human transfiguration? I know from experience that human beings can be illuminated from within, and that the skin of the entire body looks like a candle in which the wick has sunk low enough to make the whole candle glow. Also, light emanates from that person. I also know how very impressive that is for an observer. This is nothing like the "pregnancy glow" people sometimes talk about; it's much more literal. I haven't exactly known what to do with this experience, but it makes preaching this passage powerful for me. I have no doubts whatever that Jesus was literally transfigured, and that his clothing shone whiter than the whitest bleach could make it. With God, all things are possible. I think we don't trust that very much in our modern world! CE in CO Oh, thank you all for such wonderful postings.
I am longtime reader, but do not usually post anything. A friend of mine sent me a story that I am thinking of using for sermon Sunday and thought I'd share it. As I faced my Maker at the last judgment, I knelt before the Lord along with all the other souls. Before each of us laid our lives like the squares of a quilt in many piles. An Angel sat before each of us sewing our quilt squares together into a tapestry that is our life. But as my angel took each piece of cloth off the pile, I noticed how ragged and empty each of my squares were. They were filled with giant holes. Each square was labeled with a part of my life that had been difficult, the challenges and temptations I was faced with in everyday life. I saw hardships that I endured, which were the largest holes of all. I glanced around me. Nobody else had such squares. Other than a tiny hole here and there, the other tapestries were filled with rich color and the bright hues of worldly fortune. I gazed upon my own life and was disheartened. My angel was sewing the ragged pieces of cloth together, threadbare and empty, like binding air. Finally the time came when each life was to be displayed, held up to the light, the scrutiny of truth. The others rose, each in turn, holding up their tapestries. So filled their lives had been. My angel looked upon me, and nodded for me to rise. My gaze dropped to the ground in shame. I hadn't had all the earthly fortunes... I had love in my life, and laughter. But there had also been trials of illness, and death, and false accusations that took from me my world, as I knew it. I had to start over many times,I often struggled with the temptation to quit, only to somehow muster the strength to pick up and begin again. I spent many nights on my knees in prayer, asking for help and guidance in my life. I had often been held up to ridicule, which I endured painfully, each time offering it up to the Father in hopes that I would not melt within my skin beneath the judgmental gaze of those who unfairly judged me. Now, I had to face the truth. My life was what it was, and I had to accept it for what it was. I rose and slowly lifted the combined squares of my life to the light. A gasp filled the air. I gazed around at the others who stared at me with wide eyes. Then, I looked upon the tapestry before me. Light flooded the many holes, creating an image, the face of Christ. Then our Lord stood before me, with warmth and love in His eyes. He said, "Every time you gave over your life to me, it became my life,my hardships, and my struggles." "Each point of light in your life is when you stepped aside and let me shine through, until there was more of me than there was of you." May all our quilts be threadbare and worn, allowing Christ to shine through.
Sorry it took up so much space. Blessings JR in OH.
I find it quite interesting that the Winter Olympics start about the same time we are doing this Matthew 17:1-9 text. There sure are a lot of events in these Olympics that begin on a mountain. And once they get to the top of the mountain, they can't stay there. They've got to come down....maybe not quite the same way as Jesus and the disciples. But there certainly will be lots of skiing, sledding and snowboarding going on as people come down from the mountain!
Mike in SW Ohio
This is OFF TOPIC, I know, but I gotta say this....
Someone who posted anonymously said, "Not recognizing who D. Tutu may not be such an awful thing." and went on to quote from "an article" -- I'd like to know the source.
This article suggested that Archbishop Tutu's comments about 9/11 were "morally numbing" ... I didn't find them so. Perhaps "politically numbing" or "patriotically numbing" to some, but Tutu's suggestion that the "state-sponsored terrorism" of regimes propped up over the years by the U.S. government could be considered morally equivalent to 9/11 has some merit. Personally, I've been trying to puzzle out why the actions of Israel against the Palestinians living within her borders (people whose family roots there go back generations before the establishment of the modern state of Israel) are any different than the actions of the Taliban vis-a-vis the various ethnic peoples of Afghanistan (especially the northerners who are of a different tribal background from the Talibans, who were/are Pashtuns).
The Archbishop, it seems to me, is simply suggesting that dehumanizing and life-taking actions, by whomever committed, are morally indefensible, and while his "list" comparable actions may have paralleled "lists" of the "secular left" that doesn't make it "wrong" -- nor do I believe the Archbishop would have suggested it is exhaustive.
Desmond Tutu is one of the great prophetic voices of our age. If he says things that seem to offend our patriotic and political sensibilities, rather than be dismissive of his remarks, we should perhaps pay closer attention.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Entire Tutu article was found at http://www.ird-renew.org/News/News.cfm?ID=292&c=4
Eric in KC,
Thank you for speaking out. I agree. I had the privaledge of listening to Bishop Tutu last year and was overwhealmed by his wisdom and insight. Maybe he is just speaking a Word that is painful, but needed. Some would call that prophetic. Of course, they killed and shunned them too.
Jen in PA
Having read the article (thank you for posting the citation), I see that Archbishop Tutu is in some very good company in his comments.... Frankly, I am more inclined to credit all of these so-called "Leftist theologians" from across a wide spectrum of denominational traditions, than some unknown editorial writer of the notoriousl "Right wing" Institute for Religion and Democracy.
OK ... I've had my say. I'll drop it.
Back to the text for the week...
Blessings, Eric in KS
I know this is late, but...
I just gotta share...
As I have prepared for this Sunday's pulpit time I have suddenly realized how serious I have been the last few months. I can't remember the last time I laughed in a sermon. I know that this Sunday's topic is serious, but... has anybody seen the humor in three fisherman and a rabbi/carpenter climbing a mountain, sweating, straining (and I almost said swearing) as the went higher and higher? I mean, do fisherman make good mountain climbers? Who carried the water, and who carried the picnic basket? These fisherman did not know anything about why they were going up or what would happen there and then they couldn't tell anybody about it when they got back!
Just a few thoughts as I approach this experience from a new direction.
Ed in Al
Thank you, Eric, indeed Desmond Tutu is one of the great prophetic voices of our age. When the things he says make us uncomfortable, it is all the more reason why we should "listen to him" and give careful thought to the way in which he sees something outside of our ordinary vision. Manzel
Just a thought- Note that Jesus was transfigured, not transformed. He did not change in substance, only in their perception of him. What he was seen as that day, he had always been. Sometimes we sing "What a friend we have in Jesus" or "when I am sad, He makes me glad, He's my friend." Sometimes we get too familiar, too chummy with our ol' buddy, Jesus. Maybe the fishermen had too. Familiarity breeds contempt? Sometimes we, like they, need a shaking up, a vision of the full divinity that resides in Christ's full humanity. I like the Fred Craddock advice, just tell the story, don't try to explain it. Good stuff, all. Thanx! tom in TN(USA)
Here's another thought. Just saw an old re-run of the movie, "A Chorus Line". At the end of the movie the director must choose between all the singer/dancers who have auditioned. He lines them up and asks them to step forward as they are named. Each face is shown as the names are called. Relief on the faces of those who step up. Growing despair on the un-named as the spaces fill up. Then he says, "Front line, thank you. you are dismissed." We all think Peter and James and John are special because they get brought along to see all the good stuff. Maybe they are the ones Jesus doesn't trust out of his sight. Maybe the ones left down there to wrestle with demons were the ones He trusted to be absent from. Maybe the 3 were invited not because they earned it but because they needed to see this.
When they get down and confusion runs amuck, Jesus explains some things can only be done with prayer. We assume praying for healing, for power, for specific things we want from God, for results. I think Jesus went up the mountain not to get stuff out of God, but rather to get deeply INTO God. This is the kind of prayer that prevails, when we go to God opening our dark emptiness to be filled by God's light of grace 'til we shine. We have hard confusing days ahead of us too. We need 40 days of Lenten in-filling prayer, that we may stand on the day of Crucifixion and not loose hope. Wow, I don't know where all that came from. Seems like it may preach this Sunday before Ash Wednesday. tom in TN(USA)
It's interesting how the voices from the left, those deemed to be prophetic, those that ought to be listened too, are voices described as being filled with wisdom and insight.
But let a "prophet" from the right voice an opinion on this site, and more times than not, he is rude, arrogant and/or worthy of editing.
Alan Keyes would be asking - "Does that make sense?".
God speaks from the cloud, "Listen to Him" and the first words Jesus speaks are "GET UP and DO NOT BE AFRAID"
If we hear nothing else from Jesus, that should be enough. I am reminded of the words of Christ in Luke 6:46, "Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?"
pax kat in PA
Finding the flame within... the opening of the Olympic games in Salt Lake City... just the sound of that phrase is thought provoking...
A friend of mine sent me the following today...(Thanks Kip)... I'm not sure where he got this... still I think it is a good illustration.
It is those deep experiences of God that make it possible for people facing deep tragedy not only to sustain their faith, but to continue to affirm that God is a God of love, that God is there for them. This week Bishop Don Taylor, the assistant Bishop of New York spoke at our clergy quiet day. St. Paul's where he serves backs onto the World Trade Center. Daily since 9-11 the clergy and people of that congregation have ministered to the bereaved who have come to the church for solace. "Every church in New York City," he told us, "has been touched by the events of that day." Many people come to the church in anger blaming God and questioning how God could have let such a terrible tragedy occur. But so many of the stories he told were of people who thanked God for some synergistic moment that gave them an opportunity to connect with a loved one who later died. The story that touched me most was of a young girl whose Dad dropped her off at school on his way to work at the Trade Center. She got out of the car and started walking toward the school. She had left her sweater in the back seat of the car. Her dad called her back. She retrieved it and then had the urge to go around the car and give him a hug. "I love you, daddy," she said as she waved good-bye to him for the last time. "If I hadn't forgotten my sweater I would never have had that moment with him before he died," she told the bishop. "I thank God for that memory." It is a bittersweet moment that will stay with her throughout her whole life. I suspect that for her it is a mountaintop experience that she will recall over and over again.
Thanks for all your help this week everyone...
pulpitt in ND
The question about why Jesus called this experience a vision may have been answered already, but just in case: I noticed that the Greek word for vision refers to something gazed at and of a supernatural nature, which this experience certainly was. Hope it helps. Graham in Australia
I'm so glad I found this site - I was trying to make "Pretzel Sunday" (see Interpreter's, Feb-Mar, 2002, p.8) and Transfiguration Sunday come together.
The comment by the pastor from Ohio, and others, about "kneading dough" and the meaning of "transfiguration - in the Greek, metamorphosis" as the same did it for me. And I'm in a rural parish where many still make bread. Soooo - I'm putting my apron on in the pulpit, will make bread to be rolled into pretzels, as I speak from Matthew 17 about KNEADING (NEEDING) TRANSFIGURATION!
Thanks, all! Marty in Ellenburg
Pulpit in ND, Thanx for that great story, that goes in! I better leave out the theme of my needing more dough. It's too near appointment time.
The Flame Within (as that which illumines and makes us shine with the radiance of God) does bear some consideration. We were out last night and taped the opening ceremonies. My wife stayed up to watch it but I crashed just a little way in. Guess I'll have to go back and watch it today.
I am strongly considering making reference to the Sagan use of the Flatland story but I wonder how many will "get it." Oh well, all visions aren't for everyone.
Gotta wrap the sermon so I can get the bulletins done. God bless all the desperate preachers as we desperately try to speak God's Word in our words and convey God's Grace in our too human acts. Have a Good Sabbath, all. tom in TN(USA)
Eric (good stuff, Brother) and others who have pondered the "listen to him" command: Several years ago the movie "Life of Brian" hovered between humor and bad taste and outright blespphemy, I guess, but it illustrated the "Listen to him" point and what we tend to do. Brian (who knew he was not the savior his erstwhile followers thought he was) was running from his admirere, shoiting something like "I'm not the one!". As he ran his sandle came off. The followers said, "Oh, look, our leader has removed his left shoe. Let us remove our left shoes also!" I think this stupidity allowed Brian to escape ... and obviously, they were not in the slightest listening to him.
On another note: There is a Chichewa proverb from the African country of Malawi that says, "Likawomba, wotha!", which translated is, "While it shines, bask!" Maybe that's someplace between building booths and trudging back down the mountain.
D. Tutu and J. of Nazareth did have one thing in common - they both sure made people mad!
I'm wondering why so many call this passage one of their favorites? I always approach it with reluctance. There is a dreary ruttedness in the "glory is nice, but we must go back to work" admonition, and a miraculousness that lends itself to not trying to explain anything ...
Just one question for anyone still here at this late date: There's a story about Berbnard, the great saint of the monastic tradition, looking out his window and having a vision of the glory of God upon all ythe peoples of the earth. An onlooker also saw a similar vision, but said it was coming from the window where Bernard stood. Does anyone know that story, or where I might find it?
I could use a little more pretzel detail also.
kbc in friendly, blue-skied, teriffic-weathered, pecan-filled, pews of mountain-top-spirited people sc.
blasphemy admirers shouting Bernard
Sorry, I sent before I read. kbc
We are treating this story of Jesus as if it were a historic fact rather than what it quite clearly is- a myth about the importance of Jesus. Transfiguration stories were very common and widely circulated in the Roman world. The emperors had such stories attributed to them as a matter of course to be used in establishing their pedigree- all came to power complete with mystical annointings by roman god's and long dead 'greats' singing the praises of the current caesar while they converse on a mountaintop. There is also a very well known and widely circulated 'transfiguration' story attatched to cult of Pythagoras which, though written before Jesus, is strikingly similar. Even within our own tradition, one cannot deny the obvious parallel to the Moses stories from the wilderness.
My point is that these type of stories were written because they were an established and accepted style of biography in the 1st century. The Gospel writers, steeped in that tradition, wrote one of their own to fit the standard messianic script expected from this tradition. Their message was one of great respect to Jesus and the place for our interpretation arises from the choices that the writers wove into their unique account. The touchstones and authority figures of this myth are Moses and Elijah while the interesting 'christian twist' to the story is the presence of disciples who just don't seem to get it (a running joke in the gospels).
One modern parallel to this mythmaking that I see is found in the making of a modern president. Every candidate for the office must strike a recognizable and familiar pose for the electorate, no matter how far the 'truth' might be stretched- to be elected, one needs humble beginnings (Al Gore's 'I'm just a good ol' boy who grew up on a tobbacco farm' yarn, Bill Clinton's 'Man from Hope' slogan, Bush's 'Just a simple man from Texas' drivel) and then the candidate must tie themselves to a mythic American figure (the whistlestop train rides of a past era or, for the underdog, the Harry Truman come from behind victory in '48. Clinton struck a Kennedy-esque pose to beat out Bush I). The winner frequently is the one who creates the better myth, regardless of 'truth'.
For the gospel writer, historic truth is nothing. Story is everything. Does this myth speak to the listener? Yes, then it is true. Did the transfiguration happen? It does not matter.
There is a very solid and rational reason for all of this- the gospel writers knew that they could not describe God nor could they ever convey the greatness of Christ so they borrowed the style of their times and created a myth with which to inspire the faithful and reach out to the uninitiated. They chose to speak in the popular language of their day to offer their 'truth' to the people. The power of this, and every, gospel lesson is found in the longevity of the telling. It is still echoing through time and ringing true in our ears today. The 'Truth' of this story is found in what it awakens within us and the hearts of our congregation. We make this story 'true' if, and only if, we are transfigured by both its telling and our hearing.
As for a sermon, I'll follow this lead and tell stories of times when I felt God alive and present in my life... all true and transformed by the experience into God-revealing myth. I'll offer the hope that, through the sacraments of our church, we can touch those times in a deep and transfiguring way (Martin Luther's great line 'Your baptism is nothing less than grace clutching you by the throat' or consider the Truth of our vow to 'renounce the spiritual forces of wickedness, reject the evil powers of this world, and repent of our sins')... celebrating the myth of bread and wine being body and blood, or how a sprinkle of water embodies the cleansing grace of God (talk about mythmaking!). I will end with a call to live not a historic life, but a mythic one in which we strive to see God, wander into up the mountain into the mystery of the cloud of grace like Moses and dream of conversing with Elijah. We are alive to hear the old myth, live a new myth and transfigure our lives to nothing less than a myth for the future generations. Needless to say, the hymn will be "I Love to Tell the Story" with an ironic nod to the line 'because I know it's true'.
TB in MN
My soon-to-be-deacon Glenn is preaching this Sunday. His sermon is on the web at
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/epiph-LA-rcl-2002.htm
I think he's skirted the issue and is really preaching to a different issue raised in the adult Sunday School class over the past few weeks, but that's OK. Take a look and see if it helps.
Blessings, Eric in KS
KBC, thanks, my friend.
You asked about pretzels. The version of the story of their origin which I know is this:
Pretzels had their beginning around 610 A.D. somewhere in Southern France or Northern Italy. A young monk was preparing unleavened bread for Lent, the Christian period of fasting and penitence before Easter. This was a simple bread made of flour and water because no eggs, lard or dairy products were consumed during the Lenten fast. Christians of the day prayed with their arms folded across their chests, each hand on the opposite shoulder. It occurred to him that he could twist the leftover dough from the bread into this shape and use it as a treat for the children to recite their prayers. He named his creation 'pretiola,' Latin for 'little reward.'
There are other stories which claim a German origin for the pretzel and that the name comes from a German corruption of the Latin "bracellae", meaning "little arms". I don't know which is more correct. I learned the the "pretiola" Italian version when studying in Florence, and I like it better.
Anyway, there you are.
Blessings, Eric in KS
"We are treating this story of Jesus as if it were a historic fact rather than what it quite clearly is- a myth about the importance of Jesus."
Why stop there? Let's continue, in that progressive mindset and mythologize the atonement, the virgin birth, the resurrection, the ascension, and those references to Christ's return.
Then appoint committees to determine what programs we can enact to attract people back to the church.
Some give new meaning to Christ's admonition "Tell no one about the vision..."
The words of this text that caught my eye when they looked up they saw Jesus only. When the mystery and the lights faded, Jesus only. Jesus is the center of our faith and yet how often we lose sight because we become obsessed with building our own kingdoms.
To the dear anonomous contributor that took exception to my use of the word 'myth':
In my humble opinion, 'myth' is quite a powerful grace filled and God inspired word. Don't sell it short. It has inspired for two thousand years in the case of Jesus and will continue to inspire long after you and I are gone. It is a source of Truth and Grace for the ages... breaking free of our poor human attempts to shut it in a box or control the direction it might lead.
I'd also gently suggest you reread what I wrote in total... we're not so different, you and I.
TB in MN
Ed, First, thanks for being in God's Country (I/m from Birmingham)- Second, thanks for the comments about laughter. As Leadership reminds us this issue, it's a major need in churches. Maybe the Transfiguration should be us letting our congregation know how joyous the gospel is, and how fun being a Christian is- soem of them have forgotten, too!- Joe Bell, Gastonia NC
This is part of conclusion of my sermon this week: This story of Jesus is found almost exactly in middle of Matthew's gospel--hen Jesus tried to tell disciples about his coming death, but they do not understand. No accident, perhaps that story stands here: points back to baptism, when voice descends from cloud & Jesus begins his ministry. Points ahead to resurrection, when disciples go to mountain on which Jesus commissions them--so that they may begin their ministry.
Sharon in Bethlehem
I believe that I will focus on the importance of LISTENING to God, and discerning the voice of God.
Peter was busy talking and planning his "doing" when God interupted him.
God "interupts" us when we are talking and planning our doing.
Satan interupts with all kinds of concerns and distractions us when we are trying to listen.
Question: What must God do to get us to listen?
Question: When do we "chose" to listen to God?
Question: When we do listen to God, how does Satan interfere with that listening time?
Rev. in Utah
Hello DPS folks..
I am indeed desperate tonight... just returned from the Hospital... a 44 year old woman in my church died tonight quite unexpectedly... her brother had cancer surgery earlier this week... they made it through that all right... then, she's out for supper with her husband (they co-chaired our Fellowship Committee in our church, she was FULL of LIFE)... and fell over dead... CPR from a neighbor didn't help, ambulance was there within minutes... nothing... so, my sermon will need a little adjustment tonight... Appreciate any prayers for her husband Sid tonight...
Probably too late this week...
in shock...
pulpitt in ND
To TB in MN....I am just a curious poor country preacher. If the Bible is not true, just a bunch of myths and legends mixed in with a bunch of facts, how do I tell which is which? Either its true or it isn't. You and your flock will be in my prayers. Herschel PS..Yes, I am an educated preacher with lots of those little letters behind my name
To: Pulpit in ND
Death (not to mention sin and Satan) can be a powerful distraction to parishioners and pastors to listening and hearing and experiencing the healing words of Jesus. My prayers are with you, that God would use you as his vessel and mouthpiece, and that through your weakness, God would make you strong.
I can understand how your sermon is changing at the last minute. Perhaps there can also be some comfort for you and your congregation in LISTENING to the last words that Jesus speaks in Matthew's Gospel: "... And remember, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, to the end of the age."
Peace be with you! Rev. in Utah
JR in OH
Thanks for your story. I used it. I hope that's ok
Jerry in MN
Well I know many of you are already in your pulpits this morning... but after reading over all the comments which are very good, here is where I find myself:
Matthew is speaking to Jews... Moses speaks of Law... Jesus is not going against the law.. And Elijah had to return to give credence to the Messiah. Here it all was in one ball of wax.
Peter is an extrovert... he works out his faith externally.. Perhaps that's why the two commands: "Listen? and "tell no one".... very unextrovert behaviors.
What are our commands... Listen and let God continue the work in you.
Tell no one, because what they've seen, if described was blasphemy... and they would all be hauled off to jail. This was a message for the early church. Specifically for the Jewish church.
It doesn't mean much to us (eg...all the searching/struggling this week) because the Old Testament really is a relic to us, not a living reminder of our heritage)
Yesterday I heard Randy Maddox, and was captured by his ideas on (recycled Wesley) Grace... how it is a living, transforming dynamic... how spiritual disciplnes can spark that dynamic... this allis a good lead-in to Lent.
Pax, Pam
JR in OH, Thank you for your story about the quilted tapestry. I was prepared to use that wonderful story about Warren and the children in Peru, but when I read yours, I didn't know which way to go; I knew there wasn't time for both. I was prepared to use either, but finally made my decision while sharing prayer concerns, including one I learned of just before worship, but also thinking of concerns of several other people whose presence I didn't anticipate. by then it was clear that your story would be the way to go on this particular day. Well, they loved it and I've had so many requests for copies of the story. thanks so much! JH in NC
JR in OH, Thank you for your story about the quilted tapestry. I was prepared to use that wonderful story about Warren and the children in Peru, but when I read yours, I didn't know which way to go; I knew there wasn't time for both. I was prepared to use either, but finally made my decision while sharing prayer concerns, including one I learned of just before worship, but also thinking of concerns of several other people whose presence I didn't anticipate. by then it was clear that your story would be the way to go on this particular day. Well, they loved it and I've had so many requests for copies of the story. thanks so much! JH in NC
Herschel,
The debate about 'truth' is an old one. Don't let my use of the word 'myth' confuse you. In my understanding of the word, it is a label steeped in tradition and used with only the greatest respect. A myth can be true and a story can speak great truth. That is where I find the meaning and God's grace in the Transfiguration story. I believe that every preacher, though we use different terminology, does this every time we enter the pulpit to preach. We interpret, translate, wrestle, struggle and fashion a message that takes these ancient teachings and we try to make them have some meaning in a modern context. I do not believe that my words or understanding of these stories does any disservice to God or the story of the life of Jesus.
Historical accuracy (which is where we disagree) is another matter. It is a rather simple thing to look at the four gospels and see that the writers were not writing for historical accuracy in our modern understanding of the term. They freely contradict each other, mix up the reported order of Jesus life between their various narratives and report different words in the teachings. I believe that the gospel writers were reaching for something far deeper, far more important and far better than a literal reporting of events.
The debate we are engaged in is an old one and we won't solve it here. I thank you for your prayers and I am sure that my congregation, and I, are better for them. For what it might be worth, we had a meaningful and enriching service today. My assurance every Sunday is that, no matter how well or profound I might speak, God's spirit always manages to speak something better... each and every Sunday.
Peace to all of you and blessings to this honest forum.
TB in MN
"Sometimes, there is God" right in the midst of our lectionary texts and "sometimes THERE is God" right in the midst of our lives and ministries. Last week was one of those weeks when we dealt not only with the text but with our fellow pastors' struggles to minister effectively and hold onto a viable vision for service as servants of our God. I must confess that I am uncomfortable with our tendency to view these tensions as digressions for which we must apologize or diversions which distract us. Are these not living breathing illustrations of the very themes we address in our preaching, especially during Lent? Are we not all part of a community of faith committed to upholding and enabling one another in prayerful support? Frankly, I see the footprints of our beloved Holy Spirit etched into every posting. The evidence of God's power shines through our very human weakness and bears witness of God's grace in the midst of our individual and corporate journeys. Rev. She in NC
Greetings all,
Wow! It's been a while since I logged on here, and it's amazing how many entries there are already on Monday morning! (Yawn...)
Manzel: I think the term "vision" refers simply to something that they saw. (I'm speaking not as a Greek scholar, simply from the way I see the text, in all my "wisdom." ;) Remember the other time God spoke in this way, speaking almost the exact same words, was at the Baptism of Christ. Notice in Matthew's version that this is also a "vision" experienced by Jesus, although the word is not used. The text (New American Bible) says, "...the sky opened and he saw the Spirit..." Of course, the voice was addressed to all when it said, "This is my beloved Son..." So I think that there is both a public and a personal dimension to both "visions." For the sake of the bystanders at the Baptism and the three disciples at the Transfiguration, the voice spoke. But for Jesus, both events were moments of personal transformation, enlightenment, etc. I don't see "vision" as in any way making the experience less real or meaningful, as if they simply imagined it, which is not what you're saying anyway...
PH in OH: I think Peter (who admittedly does suffer from foot-in-mouth disease) is simply speaking for the rest of us. As so often happens in the Gospels, the disciples, for good or ill, represent the disciples who are schlepping along the Christian way, for good or ill. We all want to stay on that mountaintop, we all want to build tents (or houses or castles or monuments or...!) and stay in our comfort zones. But Jesus says, "Nope! Down the mountain we go, back into the dust and dirt of everyday life. That's where the ministry and mission are lived out. And don't tell anyone about this for right now...we have this little matter of death and resurrection to experience first.
I think the "coming down from the mountain" element is as important as anything else in this whole "vision."
Metz, Indiana
Greetings all,
Wow! It's been a while since I logged on here, and it's amazing how many entries there are already on Monday morning! (Yawn...)
Manzel: I think the term "vision" refers simply to something that they saw. (I'm speaking not as a Greek scholar, simply from the way I see the text, in all my "wisdom." ;) Remember the other time God spoke in this way, speaking almost the exact same words, was at the Baptism of Christ. Notice in Matthew's version that this is also a "vision" experienced by Jesus, although the word is not used. The text (New American Bible) says, "...the sky opened and he saw the Spirit..." Of course, the voice was addressed to all when it said, "This is my beloved Son..." So I think that there is both a public and a personal dimension to both "visions." For the sake of the bystanders at the Baptism and the three disciples at the Transfiguration, the voice spoke. But for Jesus, both events were moments of personal transformation, enlightenment, etc. I don't see "vision" as in any way making the experience less real or meaningful, as if they simply imagined it, which is not what you're saying anyway...
PH in OH: I think Peter (who admittedly does suffer from foot-in-mouth disease) is simply speaking for the rest of us. As so often happens in the Gospels, the disciples, for good or ill, represent the disciples who are schlepping along the Christian way, for good or ill. We all want to stay on that mountaintop, we all want to build tents (or houses or castles or monuments or...!) and stay in our comfort zones. But Jesus says, "Nope! Down the mountain we go, back into the dust and dirt of everyday life. That's where the ministry and mission are lived out. And don't tell anyone about this for right now...we have this little matter of death and resurrection to experience first.
I think the "coming down from the mountain" element is as important as anything else in this whole "vision."
Metz, Indiana
Oops! Sorry about the double-dip! One of these days I'll learn to use this computing-machine....
Metz
Nail Bender
It's so good to see you here again! Thanks for sharing--I love your insight and the expression of it.
Neil in Ohio
Neil,
Thank you my friend. You are very generous and have blessed me this day.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Thanks for the contribution about transfiguration or transfiguring meaning to "knead." That is a powerful visual. If the bread is not kneaded enough, it is tough and hard. If we allow the spirit of God to mold us, to knead us, do we then become softened to the will of God--no matter the cost? Does this not tie in with the lection from John? lp in CO
Thanks for the contribution about transfiguration or transfiguring meaning to "knead." That is a powerful visual. If the bread is not kneaded enough, it is tough and hard. If we allow the spirit of God to mold us, to knead us, do we then become softened to the will of God--no matter the cost? Does this not tie in with the lection from John? lp in CO