15 Jul 1999
17:45:49

the transfiguration of burn-out


19 Jul 1999
08:51:24

In seminary I heard this event "explained" several different ways. I was saddened by the fact that not one of the ways was that it happened just like it is reported. Why is it that a person on one hand will agree that God is the Creator, but later find it necessary to explain away an act of creation? Perhaps, in feeding all of those people, Jesus was just sowing seeds of kindness. Maybe just sharing the Creator God. possible, though different elements, this is an early, dim reflection of Holy Communion. Maybe a message on Stewardship, showing us how great it is what God can do with just our few resources; and we should think of how much God can do if we are willing to give our full tithe, or more. It boggles the imagination.

http://home.earthlink.net/~godsfamily pastordon


21 Jul 1999
23:26:27

One or two miscellaneous points : 1. Jesus performed this miracle ( and associated miracles of healing ) as an act of compassion ; it matters to him that people are sick or hungry. 2. It would have been easy ( and no doubt correct ! ) to blame the crowd for their own predicament for having come out without packed lunches. Jesus still helps them - it is easy to use the excuse " It's their own fault " as an excuse for not helping, but Jesus did not do this. 3. The crowd ate their fill ; therefore the provision was generous - it is not wrong to be filled if everyone else is filled too. 4. Jesus directs that the leftovers are gathered up to avoid waste ( John 6.12 ). This contrasts markedly with our own casual attitude to the subject of waste. 5. Jesus no doubt could have performed the miracle without the gift of the loaves and the fishes, but chose to use them, to such effect. How often it can happen that a small and apparently insignificant gift can bring great blessings !

Mike, North Wales, UK


22 Jul 1999
19:23:00

One year on this Sunday I took twelve of the bread baskets from the parish hall and piled them around the foot of the altar and the altar flowers. Seems like I said something about it, but the visual image makes the point of abundance by itself.

Sara in GR, MI


22 Jul 1999
20:26:58

Jesus feeding the 5,000... It's about how Jesus takes time to grieve (John the Baptist's death) but the multitude find him as he drifts out on the lake. There they are on the lakeshore, looking so pitiful - so needy, with such expectant faces. So Jesus comes to them. He comes to them and he serves them - he heals the sick, cures the lame, offers mercy to the suffering, the needy... then he and the disciples feed them an unexpected meal. He blesses, breaks and gives. And everyone eats until they are satisfied, and there are leftovers besides!

What a great story. So what can we do with this? Here's a take, although a bit disjointed.

What do we do with our grief? Jesus went to work - sharing himself with others, teaching his disciples to reach beyond their own desires and meet the needs of the people. Jesus never misses an opportunity to minister. Why should we? Life is filled with disappointments, tragedies - situations that overwhelm us. But we are called for something beyond all that, something driven by One who is greater than us. In ministering to others, Jesus shows us how the baskets are still full. What's leftover when we becoem a blessing? More blessings!

frannie


26 Jul 1999
06:08:13

Last week in Matthew 13 Jesus explains what the kingdom of heaven is like by using parables. This week in chapter 14 Jesus shows us what the kingdom of God is like by using real life. The disciples see a problem and their initial reaction is to distance themselves from it. They see that people are getting hungry so the disciples ask Jesus to send the people away. Jesus says no. Jesus says, "You, yourselves give them something to eat." Last week someone mentioned that the kingdom of God is a verb, not a noun and reminded us that when we pray, "Thy kingdom come," we are taught to also pray, "Thy will be done." In this lonely place the disciples saw a big problem and were sure they did not have enough resources to solve the problem. Jesus teaches that in doing the will of God, the kingdom of God does indeed come. In joining ourselves to the will of God, our resources become unlimited.


26 Jul 1999
08:42:32

Greg in Nashville: I have a non-preaching resource request: would you be willing to email me at srcrocus@earthlink.net? Thanks, Susan in SanPedro


26 Jul 1999
08:53:32

So far, some thought provoking contributions. Allow me to add some of my own.

Last night as I was reading this passage over, several things jumped out at me. First, verse 17 caught my eye (They replied, "We have nothing here but five loaves and two fish."). The disciples here sound a lot like us today. So often we think we have little or nothing to offer Christ. But just look what Christ can do with our small talents and gifts. This certainly isn't an encouragement to offer less. No, we offer all we can, no matter how meager we might think it is. And Christ can take it and "feed" the multitudes.

I'm not too concerned with trying to explain this miracle; how it was done or IF it was done. If it is just a story to illustrate the nature of Jesus, then why is it in all 4 gospel accounts? Yet, this is more than a simple miracle....more than some magicians trick. This act reveals the identity and nature of Christ; his compassion in the midst of his own personal grief, his involving the disciples in the miracle, and the Eucharistic characteristics in the way he broke the bread and gave them to the disciples.

Melanie from NE


26 Jul 1999
09:18:43

Melanie from NE, I think that you make an important point; that when we offer all we have, Christ transforms it to be enough to meet the needs of the situation. I also appreciate the reminder about the important tie-in with the eucharist. Both before and after the "last supper" Christ feeds all who will follow Him and we are sustained. I forgot to sign my thought about the "real life" example that follows the parable examples about the kingdom of God. DL in ME


26 Jul 1999
10:41:12

Frannie,

Jesus' desire was to get away to a quiet place away from the crowdes. They followed him. I have spend to much of my life thinking that if I just get back to work, all will be taken care of and it DOES NOT WORK IN THE LONG RUN.

The death of John the Baptist must have been a severe blow to Jesus, and it being so brutal could only have made it worse.

The story, or any accounting of miracles, looses its meaning when de-mythologized. It becomes ordinary. I prefer to accept the miracle and then add the symbolic significance and my theological reflection about it later.

I believe that another dps'er above wrote about how the Disciples are like many churches today, they think that they do not have much to offer Christ. I would add they often do not think they have very much to offer their communities either! Many mainline Churches are stagnant or declining while they hold on to their 5 loaves and 2 fish, for fear that they will loose even that!

AWG, rocky coast of Me.


26 Jul 1999
11:36:09

I find myself thinking about the abundance we have,and how often we see it as nothing. Our point of reference is the materialism -- the things of this world. But for some reason, God works with so little, even with me.....

I am struck by Jesus' response -- not -- ok, let me pray. not - bread, come forth! But: You give them something to eat. The expectation is that his followers are perfectly capable of feeding a huge crowd in the wilderness, without benefit of Mc D's or 7-11.... It is a reminder to those of us in the church today that though we think we have not, think we cannot, Jesus has already given us the tools.... somehow what we need for ministry we have, though perhaps we cannot see it.... We sing: Open our eyes, Lord, we want to see Jesus -- maybe it should be -- we want to see the bread. Then of course, eucharistically, Jesus is the bread....

HW in HI


26 Jul 1999
13:45:51

I've never posted on this site before, but I'm compelled to do so and share with you something I came across the other day. I was reading a Peter Marshall Sermon entitled "Where Are the Heroes Now?" In that sermon, he used the term: "the Attic of Forgotten Things." That phrase hasn't left my mind since first reading it.

And I come to this passage from Matthew and that "Attic" appears again. How many times do we put in the attic those things that are useless to us at a given time and just forget about them? I know my attic is full of those kinds of things.

But what about those things that relate to our faith journey that we just store away and forget about. Things like: the support that came from the church when I was grieving over a loss... or that message that really spoke to me... or the joy on my child's face when she came home from VBS?... Or the time I first felt the presence of Jesus in my life...

And then something comes along and we react as though we've never experienced anything of value during our faith journey.

How quickly we seem to store those life-changing experiences away in the "Attic of Forgotten Things." We forget the love shared... We forget the joy experienced... We forget the power of Jesus' presence.

And in this story, Jesus appears and takes the most basic of things (fish and bread)... things that might be thrown in the "dumpster of forgotten things"... and uses them to feed the multitudes.

Jerry from College Station


26 Jul 1999
15:42:01

HW and Jerry together make a powerful sermon about how God has provided ALREADY just what our churches need. We don't have to be bigger, younger, richer... we just have to rummage through our experiences, the nudging/leading of the Spirit and USE what we have. But, as with the loaves and fishes, the miracle occurs only when we share and use what we have NOW. The disciples wanted the problem to go away. Jesus knew the answer was in getting closer... closer to what they had, closer to what was needed and those who needed it and approaching with the love of God. DL in ME


27 Jul 1999
04:45:34

Jesus Sacramental? Who would think?

As we discussed last week there are many of the things that Jesus starts, (things that seem to be insignificant that turn out to be quite profound! (The net, the pear, the mustard seed, even His appearance, etc.)

"Taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds."

Christ’s Sacramental imagery indicates the coming blessing, and another profound mystery in the Sacrament. The Supper is getting it’s central place in the Church.

This is the task of the Church, as we are touched by the blessings of Christ’s' Real Presence, and His forgiveness, and healing, we are to take that healing Word and Sacrament into the world in which we live.

RevRon


27 Jul 1999
08:15:53

19 Jul 1999 Can anyone tell me how to find this sermon mentioned last week? RevRon

I posted a rather lengthy "story" on the sermon page, inspired by Nailbender (and Frederick Buechner). Would appreciate any feedback, especially as to whether it's appropo for the pulpit this Sunday.

--Barry in OH


27 Jul 1999
10:22:44

How many times are we like the disciples of old, when we face a situation that seems impossible. I can just hear them now, "there is no way we could ever feed so many people." Aren't there places those sort of people can go for help--why are they bothering us?" And of course, the seven last words of the church, "we've never done it that way before." It seem to me that Jesus is telling them to have faith. Faith will find a way.

God is able to use every gift and every person for God's own glory. No gift is ever too small for God.

Just some thoughts...

Love, Paula in sunny, (hot) Florida


27 Jul 1999
13:33:21

How do we reconcile this with Matt 4:3-4

Dick in VA


27 Jul 1999
14:21:37

WOW!!! Lots of wonderful thoughts this week. Thank you all. Dick in Va, I think it maight be because Jesus was feeding others, not himself alone, and that the Matt 4 passage was about proving power, not about food. What do you think?I am open to other thoughts on this. Glad to be back amongst you all, as I have been at Wesley Seminary for 4 weeks. Janet in NY


27 Jul 1999
15:14:19

July 27,99

Great os the Lord. He can and did do what we can and did not do. He is a Supernatural God. His power is not limited to our finite comprehension, imagination, or faith. He is the all in all who does all in all. David got his faith through his experiences defending the sheep. Where did Jesus get his faith? Building plows, door jams, window frames? I believe he got his faith by believing what God says that He did in the Old Testament. He believed that God was really God who really had power and control over all situations. Can you imagine what kind of ministry Jesus might have had if he had attended a comtemporary liberal seminary where God 's existence is questioned, where His power and miricles are doubted, where His nature is explained by comparing Him to man? Jesus believed his Father and because of his faith he could heal, feed, suffer and die, and rise again. What is a miricle to God anyway? I believe it is an every instance occurance. The stars hang out there perfectly in balance. The whole universe shouts of the Creator's glory yet many attempt to explain the "accident" that caused the universe. Where will the doubters and the nay-sayers be when the stars begin to fall? Where will the athiests and the evolutionists be when Jesus comes back to rule with his rod of iron? Will they still stupidly challange his authority and power? Glory be to God for the recording of Jesus feeding the thousands. And, glory be to God for feeding my soul every day - just as great a miricle. Dale Thiele, Norcatur,Kansas


27 Jul 1999
15:27:28

The Sacramental Life is revealed as a spirituality in which the act of praise, adoration, and/or worship is deeply connected to the praxis/actuality/practice of being/becoming/doing the sacred word in the common place. The gift giving of sharing overcomes the perceived shortage or absence of material resources. Many in the depression, and many more in our contemporary settings of extreme need, know what it means to take the little they have and in sharing it they discover the miracle of "plenty". Is not the Presence of Christ, the victory of life over death, born out of the cross? Is not the desert hunger in the exodus relived in this then contemporary journey of Jesus and his disciples? Is there not a "re-living" of the historical exodus in this "manna o heaven" fed to the hungry/needee? Is there not a revelation in this event of the long-awaited Messiah who comes as surely to the sojourners in this sacred story as he did via Moses and the needful rebels in the desert sands? The historical past in all it's religious significance (the exodus) is unveiled as time is fulfilled in the dawning of God's Kingdom in this moment! Out of absence and need, spiritual deserts, Sacred Presence in the Sacrament comes to meet the needs of human kind in the face of absence/death/hunger/thirst/nakedness,etc.! PaideiaSCO in north ga mts.


27 Jul 1999
19:58:14

I like what Frannie had to say about the context of this miracle story. I agree that it is important to realize that this event is set immediately after the death of Jesus' colleague, friend and cousin - a brutal death that foreshadows Jesus' own death. I'm not sure that the idea is that we go to work and give in order to deal with our grief. Perhaps it is more to the point to say that the experience of John's death could have led Jesus to become angry and judgmental at this injust, sinful world; instead, his own sorrow leads him to greater compassion and understanding toward those who suffer - he had compassion on them and healed many of the sick. I'm not sure where you go with this, but I think there is some connection with what Nouwen called "the authority of genuine compassion." I'm not sure where you go with that thought, but thanks to Frannie for reminding us of the importance of understanding the context. CS in SC


27 Jul 1999
20:14:55

RE Barry's sermon, mentioned last week.

RevRon: You find Barry OH's sermon by clicking on "Sermon Review" right under the Gospel citation in the column to your left as you read this page. He was working on the gospel for 25 July 1999.

Barry: I find you story helpful to those who are "professionally" in the ministry--very real in your reluctance and in the events that followed. It SHOULD speak to anyone. . . .

However, I see two possible interpretations which are no help to the pew-sitter.

1) "That preacher sure is tooting his own horn. Telling about what a great influence he has on others. I guess he's out to prove that he's really got what it takes." (This does not truly reflect your thoughts, but Pew-sitter is not always paying close attention.)

2) "That preacher sure is great. I'm glad we have him to do the ministry of the church. Next time a friend of MINE is in need of visiting, I'm going to call him in! After all, he's really trained for this, and I'm not."

Both of these objections stop me from very much spiritual autobiography from the pulpit. At least in the detail you used here. Some example, yes. Then more on how there are MANY examples, from "regular" Christian's lives. Focus on how it is a struggle for everyone, not just you; how the pearls are revealed in everyone, not just you.

Sara in GR,MI


27 Jul 1999
21:13:33

They hungered so for love and compassion from God that they were willing to go without food. You know I have seen this same hunger in the eyes of people around me.

It comes from those that are hungry for some acceptance and caring. It comes from those that are made to feel unwelcome in the midst of the organized religions that we often claim.

Today I read an article of a man, a first time visitor to a church, was escorted from Worship because he was effiminate. He had done nothing special to deserve that - he had greeted all with warmth and civility - but because he was not the "man" they thought he should be in how he shook hands, or made a misstep by trying to hug an usher - which might be perfectly valid in many different cultures of USA today. Today I wonder how many people will find their way to this teacher in the wilderness that promises to feed their spiritual and physical needs.

I wonder - will there be 5,000+ at our tables this week, or will they be in another place looking for the bread of heaven because we, like the disciples, wanted to send them away.

Greg in Nashville


27 Jul 1999
21:48:18

The ideas expressed so far are very helpful. In my mind, I am trying to connect this reading with the alternate OT lectionary reading (Isaiah 55:1-5) and relate them both to the Eucharist.

My preliminary thought is that we spend our lives seeking for things which do not satisfy (Isaiah) when all along Christ is right here, available to us. He alone fully satisfies the hunger and thirst of our soul.

--Rod in Pixley


27 Jul 1999
22:41:56

Dear Barry in OH,

What a moving sermon! It fed me, thank you. As for when to use it, I would say: trust God to show you. My old preaching prof would say, where is the good news? The good news seems to be there, but hidden. A dear friend once told me: we must minister from our poverty. Which you do, my friend. My guess is that your church will grow closer together and to you once you preach it....

HW in HI


28 Jul 1999
08:52:57

As we all meditate on the Scriptures each week (each day) trying to listen to what God is saying to us, we are 2000 years away from their origin. Yet we inspire one another with our insights. That is why I always check with those characters of long ago...those church leaders that are referred to "the Fathers of the Church." They too read the Scriptures...the same ones we are reading. The Scriptures were rather fresh then. The "fathers" may even have understood better the mentality of the writers...since they were close to them in language, culture and time. I live near Bowdoin College, an ivy league college here in Maine, with a terrific theological library: everything Luther ever said in German, Latin and English...everything Augustine and Thomas Aquinas ever said in Latin and English. "Reformationists" (my own term) downplay the "Fathers" because they are not the Bible. But neither are we. I am going to check with the "fathers" to see what they have to say about this passage. But in the meantime, thank you all very much for your insights. I am going to use some of them. Sorry I have nothing to contribuute at this time. Joe from Maine


28 Jul 1999
09:45:46

Parker Palmer has a chapter called Loaves and Fishes: Acts of Scarcity or Abundance (sorry don't know the title of the book). In it he suggests that most of the world operates out of the assumption that the universe is a place of scarcity so that we have to compete for the resources. Jesus risks all by believing that there is enough when we are in community. This is why he has the crowd sit down face to face in small groups-only then can the sharing begin. WHen we are in community many things that we must buy as individuals, in the marketplace suddenly become available free of charge. For example, some of the personal attention and care that many people now purchase from therapists may be avialable from members of a community as they care and support one another. Also expensive equipment that must be owned by every family unit in our fragmented society can be shared by numbers of people in community. We own a community ladder with serveral neighbours and share other tools. Only in community can we be satisfied where every day miracles have a chance to happen. Love is abundant in the very nature of things but it takes vulnerablity and risk-taking to make community happen. Jesus showed his vulnerability and trust in God when he gave thanks for such meger resources (5 loaves and 2 fish) and expected that the whole community would be fed! Just as we depend on God for what we need, God depends on us to incarnate Christ-like actions. Remember also that Jesus didn't act alone but with others - he asked his disciples to help -"You give" and "Go and see" were his directions. Community is also a gift to be received and not one that you can calculate or make happen by yourself because one person's resources eventually run out.But when you trust the abundance that is inherent in community, only then can true, authentic community happen. Its risky though because when you count on others to run things and get things done, you might experience failure - yet thats what Jesus did. It reminds me of being a fool for Christ. Go and see what potential you already have in community seems to be at the core of this miracle. Thats the kingdom in action. IS the universe abundant or scarce is also a central question. I think it was Einstein who said that that question is the most important question. Seems like its very important to the survival of our planet and the healing of our world. Jesus said I have come to give life and to give it abundantly. Nina in the North


28 Jul 1999
11:50:43

Here are the words to a song I first heard the Gaither Vocal Band sing - it's to the point as well.

In the harvest field now ripened There’s a work for all to do; Hark! the voice of God is calling To the harvest calling you. Refrain Little is much when God is in it! Labor not for wealth or fame. There’s a crown—and you can win it, If you go in Jesus’ Name. Does the place you’re called to labor Seem too small and little known? It is great if God is in it, And He’ll not forget His own. Refrain Are you laid aside from service, Body worn from toil and care? You can still be in the battle, In the sacred place of prayer. Refrain When the conflict here is ended And our race on earth is run, He will say, if we are faithful, “Welcome home, My child—well done!” Refrain


28 Jul 1999
12:06:05

Took, blessed, broke, gave ... (do this for my memory) ... and twelve baskets of broken pieces where left over.

tom in ga

p.s.

What would happen if your whole life was eucharist?


28 Jul 1999
12:31:37

As a student minister, I have always been hesitant to respond here, but I am struck by something as I read these responses and I feel compelled to speak. In the scripture, it states that Jesus blessed the loaves and broke them and then gave them to the disciples. It does not, however, state that they were multiplied at that time. The implication is, therefore, that the loaves multiplied in the hands of the disciples once they began handing the food out to the multitude. Therefore, I feel that the real miracle of the story is Jesus' empowering of the disciples, consecrating them to use what they had, and looking forward to the time when Jesus would not be there to do everything himself. I am encouraged by this, because at times I feel that I have not enough to offer, and yet I know that with Jesus' blessing, what I have will be more than sufficient.

Mike in Chatham,Oh


28 Jul 1999
12:43:14

mike in OH,

Your comments are great! Never be afraid to share your insights just because you are still in school. God inspires us all!

You are right that just as Jesus empowered the disciples, he also empowers each of us. I often find myself thinking, "O, Lord, I'm so inadequate to the task." And that's when I hear that still small voice saying "Trust me. Let me be the one in charge and you'll do fine."

Melanie in NE


28 Jul 1999
14:26:37

Tom in Ga. -- Your quote: "What would happen if your (my) whole life was Eucharist" was really wonderful. I am doing a month long series on "POWER" -- and am having trouble with what to name this "power" -- (sacrifice? sharing? letting go? giving?) The statement caused me to think of the Native American custom of Gift giving. And yes, I think the story is for the church. I am using a quote from Tim Hansen's book "Holy Sweat" that captured me some time ago: "What you have is all you need -- " The power of releasing our gifts into God's hands is the beginning of the miracle. Oh...I guess that's it! "The Power of Release" Whaddayathink?

Thanks for all your insights, friends. RevKK


28 Jul 1999
14:35:10

We've already mentioned the fact that this story takes place in Matthew immediately after Jesus hears about the death of John the Baptist - and it's assumed that Jesus is in grief. I wonder, though, if the same isn't true of the crowds. John the Baptist apparently attracted a large following, and was something of a folk hero to the populous. They were probably in grief as well.

One of their hero's had just been taken from them.

Jesus responds by having compassion on the grieving masses, healing them, and giving them a funeral dinner.

Maybe there's a sermon here about dealing with grief and dissappointment. Instead of wallowing in self-pity the real healing, and the real miracle, takes place with we come together in our grief, and share our meager resources with one another.

DR


28 Jul 1999
15:42:15

Since the generosity of God is a trust, it can never be hoarded. It must be shared. In other words, the generosity of God can most fully be appropriated only in community. The miracle of God's word is the heritage of His whole family. This is why the church in the NT is conceived of as the Body of Christ of which individual persons are members. There is no such thing as a Lone-Ranger Christian in the NT. Moreover, the word "saint" always appears in the plural. (Eph. 1:1; 2 Cor. 13:13) Not only does this use suggest community, it implies a supportive role. The saints were the earliest enablers. they were not just a jolly crowd. they shared their concerns, their judgments, and their experiences of God's saving word. Like the 5,000, they implemented in their sharing the fruits of God's generosity, not only in seeing to it that each one's neighbor was fed, but all of them became part of God's design.

Peace, OKBob


28 Jul 1999
16:46:48

I'm not sure what to do with it, but I was struck in researching this text that there are two "banquets" juxtaposed: the birthday banquet of Herod and his frieds which leads to the death of John the Baptist and this "heavenly banquet" in the wilderness which was open to anyone who showed up and lead to the feeding (continuation of life) for over 5,000. I am struck by both the abundance and the inclusivity of Jesus' banquet. This, not the self-centered feast of Herod, is God's vision for humanity!

There are obvious references to the Exodus and God providing bread in the wilderness as well.

A rich text. The problem is picking one point when so many cry out.

Betty in Chicago


28 Jul 1999
18:21:02

Oh, Betty! Good thinking. And Bob in OK -- I have to find a place to use your quote: about not hoarding the generosity of God. Wow. You guys are good! REvKK


28 Jul 1999
19:36:34

The book, Not Counting Women and Children, also lifts up the community nature - and possibly that the miracle was the sharing that everyone began to do once the 5 loaves and 2 fish became available. something to think about as we begin discussing Jubilee 2000 and the forgiveness of national debt. sharing isn't much easier for most adults than it is for small children.

Betty, thanks for pointing out Herod's feast in contrast. i had never made that connection. Leonard Mann talks about how the people must have been stunned after Herod killed John and wondered whether evil really was triumphant. he says this meal gave them hope that Herod (and all the Herods in our world) do not have all the power or the final say.

Ialso see the obvious - that Jesus is giving himself to us - our spiritual food - that we may be satisfied and that our religious selves will be whole, even overflowing (the 12 baskets) Last week i made cookies for the children's sermon and my own kids were trying to guess what i was going to say. my daughter said, "i know; God is food for our soul!" I think i have a communion message for this week.

and speaking of children, remeber there were more than 5ooo fed - women and children weren't counted.

may God preach through us this week, rachel


28 Jul 1999
22:34:54

Hello All, Truly I can hear God speaking in all that I have read here. Let me throw in another thought. I see a great hunger in the crowd. They did not come there for food, Although I do believe that God, being able to create humanity, can feed from a physical standpoint as many as He so choses. I'm am touched by the hunger for His Word, His Healing, and His Peace. I long for more of that kind of hunger in this world. Thank you all for your inspired words. mike in Covington, TN


29 Jul 1999
02:24:37

Mike in Chatham..., great thought! That'll preach. My small church needs to grow some, has unchurched people all around, but has "small church inferiority complex." This message will feed them. I can't wait to see what God does with this!

RevBill


29 Jul 1999
09:15:49

I know that Matthew's version doesn't mention the young boy who brought the loaves and fishes but what significance might we see in the source of the food? Also, I've heard a lot of theories/speculation about the significance of the 12 baskets of leftovers. What do you all think about that? Tom in Ontario


29 Jul 1999
10:54:24

To Tom in Ontario:

I was thinking about that...the 12 tribes, the complete people, etc. But in addition, I am now imagining the image of Jesus dividing up what was offered between the disciples--the twelve disciples, each with a basket.

So maybe there were twelve baskets to begin with, each with a little dab of food in the bottom, that is: 5/12ths of a loaf of bread and 1/6th of a dried fish. How full is that basket going to look when the disciple offers it to you?

One theory of the miracle would be that the basket was full by the time it was offered (the miracle of the willing disciples). Another would be that the basket had only a little when it was offered to the people, but that some of the people in the crowd began to take from the basket, and some others began to put INTO the basket the food (part or all?) they had brought with them (the miracle of the willing crowd).

Either way: the amazing change from scarcity to abundance could be seen in the different look of the overflowing returned baskets from the nearly empty baskets that were carried to the crowd by the 12.

Sara in GR,MI


29 Jul 1999
14:12:16

The crowds were concerned with seeking Jesus, rather than taking care of themselves. The disciples suggest that Jesus dismiss the people that they may provide for themselves, but Jesus' response says that people should not have to choose between seeking Jesus and providing for themselves. Jesus provides for those who seek him. JR in BigD


29 Jul 1999
15:52:04

I agree with Sara, Betty, Mike, Mike & others... as Barbara Brown Taylor suggests in a sermon on this text in "The Seeds of Heaven," for Jesus to move the gathered people to give what they had so that the loaves and fishes were thus multiplied, is no small miracle; for a whole crowd of people to move from a sense of scarcity, and an attitude of selfish hoarding, to a sense of plenty and generous, even sacrificial sharing, is for me more powerful and more significant than any other understanding of this event that I have read.... What Christ offered the people then and offers us now is that which meets our greatest need, as the Isaiah text also reminds us this Sunday. MAL in NY


29 Jul 1999
17:46:16

My sermon title for this week is "Blessed...broken...given..." I hope to focus on these three words on different levels - beginning first with the Gospel lesson, where Jesus takes the bread, blesses, breaks, and gives it to the disciples to feed the crowds.

Second will be the life of Jesus, blessed at baptism (My beloved Son), broken, and given for our sins.

Third will be the eucharist, where Jesus says, "This is my body, my blood."

Finally, it will be us, blessed at baptism, broken by sin, given to "go and feed them!"

How it will play out? We still have two days!

Peace, Charlie in OH


29 Jul 1999
17:46:43

My sermon title for this week is "Blessed...broken...given..." I hope to focus on these three words on different levels - beginning first with the Gospel lesson, where Jesus takes the bread, blesses, breaks, and gives it to the disciples to feed the crowds.

Second will be the life of Jesus, blessed at baptism (My beloved Son), broken, and given for our sins.

Third will be the eucharist, where Jesus says, "This is my body, my blood."

Finally, it will be us, blessed at baptism, broken by sin, given to "go and feed them!"

How it will play out? We still have two days!

Peace, Charlie in OH


29 Jul 1999
18:10:50

I have been thinking this how wonderfully God works. This week we are having communion, and talking about the loaves and fishes. I am thinking about having the congregation serve each other communion, rather than just me serving it. I think it will bring more meaning to the many meanings we can learn about Jesus and the feeding of so many people in the midst of great pain.

I just wanted to share this thought with you. Thanks JQ in NJ


29 Jul 1999
18:59:06

Does anyone remember a joke/story about the Pope and a Rabbi meeting but only talking with sign language. They end up sharing communion and an apple. I've been trying to remember the whole story for the last week but it's just not coming together. It really fits my sermon this week.


29 Jul 1999
20:01:08

Just came across that story "The Pope and Moishe" at http://www.angelfire.com/in/preachrcl/q2.html

I wondered how to work it into the Matthew passage since it appears (at least this version) to be more about communication than community or Eucharist.

Nancy Z. in Albany, NY


30 Jul 1999
07:56:35

As the pastor of a small church that often worries about its small size and its continued viability, this passage inspires me to trust that with God's help, our church can truly give more people something to eat.

Dale--how about if we refrain from liberal bashing?? I would respectfully like to disagree with your characterization of what goes on at liberal seminaries. God bless. MJ in NH


30 Jul 1999
18:00:36

I keep thinking about the parallels between Jacob (in the Genesis lection) and Jesus (in this one). They both needed some time alone to think, pray, pace, reflect, etc. Jacob sends everyone on ahead and yet he isn't alone. He must wrestle with someone/something else in order to have his name, his identity, his path in life changed. He can't do it musing by himself. Jesus tries to leave everyone behind and yet the crowd beats him to the other shore. By dealing with them he has his identity confirmed, his path affirmed. His name isn't changed, but I can't help but think he had a moment to remember that "Emmanuel" means God with us and maybe the stories of Joseph being told to name him Jesus "for he will save his people from sin." What they both want is some peace and quiet, and they both get a workout instead. I guess I better be ready for whatever comes when I try to get some private time with God, huh?

Hawk in OH


30 Jul 1999
19:35:09

My preferred interpretation is full-on in-your-face God-breaking-through real miracle. There is something to be said for a whole lot of sharing happening as people perceive abundance rather than scarcity -- but I don't want to juxtapose this against the miracle. But, if I were to use the everyone-just-share approach, then all the hoarding and craziness around Y2K surely would have a place. Here's a question: will we and our congregations resist the urge to hoard like crazy?

On another bent -- the ancient "staff of life" -- bread, can be interpreted differently in some places/cultures. Here, it would have been rice.... About 2 minutes before I came down with the flu this week I bought a 50 lb bag of rice, thinking I might somehow make my point on Sunday -- it was the fever thinking, I hope. Anyway, I plan to pass on the huge bag (which I will now donate) -- but the concept works. In the days of early Hawaii, it would have been poi....

Hope this is some help -- fever is still rattling around my brain.

HW in HI


30 Jul 1999
21:36:52

Wow! Thanks for all your insights and thoughts. I love reading them as they enrich my faith and understanding of the Scriptures. As a social worker with a State agency, I often get so frustrated with the little I can offer to my clients that I frequently want to just give up. However, this passage, as many of you point out, gives me hope to continue the work that God wants us to give to each other and to people all over the world.

Now, if I can only put down the homily for Sunday clearly and precisely, sigh... (I'm covering for the Priest as a lay minister this Sunday... these are the days of vacation for our Ministers.) Good Luck to all!! Will in CT


31 Jul 1999
06:44:04

Was wondering if any of you were attempting to tie in the Gen. passage with the Matt.? Strikes me that in both, humanity contends with God. Disciples tell Jesus what to do! jacob wrestles!

Was discussing this passage this week with other assoc on staff who was struck by the fact that there was no water/wine given at the meal, just food....hmmmmm. We also discussed that fact that Jesus sends the 12 AWAY prior to blessing the crowd. I see the 12 as the institutional church that "sometimes" hinders the flocks direct contact, connection with Christ Jesus, HIS blessing.

What has always captured me were the left over baskets --12-- the remanent, broken, which could be a forshadowing of the 12 after Easter. Yet, like the bread, Christ had blessed them too (Jn) before departing. It also strikes me that it begins with Jesus in a boat, grieving and ends more or less with the 12 in a boat to... grieve? contemplate? and surely as we know to have their faith tested on the stormy sea.(or did he send them out in a boat because he had once said i will make you fishers of men, and when they had the chance, they wanted to dimiss the crowd?)

Greg in Nashville, Preach it brother!

Don in Ks I thank God that Jesus came for conservatives, liberals and moderates. The Living God is with all of us as we seek to understand and to do justice, mercy and walk humbly with God.

RevMiss


31 Jul 1999
06:44:34

Was wondering if any of you were attempting to tie in the Gen. passage with the Matt.? Strikes me that in both, humanity contends with God. Disciples tell Jesus what to do! jacob wrestles!

Was discussing this passage this week with other assoc on staff who was struck by the fact that there was no water/wine given at the meal, just food....hmmmmm. We also discussed that fact that Jesus sends the 12 AWAY prior to blessing the crowd. I see the 12 as the institutional church that "sometimes" hinders the flocks direct contact, connection with Christ Jesus, HIS blessing.

What has always captured me were the left over baskets --12-- the remanent, broken, which could be a forshadowing of the 12 after Easter. Yet, like the bread, Christ had blessed them too (Jn) before departing. It also strikes me that it begins with Jesus in a boat, grieving and ends more or less with the 12 in a boat to... grieve? contemplate? and surely as we know to have their faith tested on the stormy sea.(or did he send them out in a boat because he had once said i will make you fishers of men, and when they had the chance, they wanted to dimiss the crowd?)

Greg in Nashville, Preach it brother!

Don in Ks I thank God that Jesus came for conservatives, liberals and moderates. The Living God is with all of us as we seek to understand and to do justice, mercy and walk humbly with God.

RevMiss


31 Jul 1999
06:45:50

The first century was a dangerous time to be a Christian. The opening of Chapter 14 tells us that John has been murdered, as a favor to a dancer! Jesus ceases public discourse after chapter 13. Matthew's community is being driven from the synagogue. First century Judaism is in crisis. Read today's New York Times story about suicide. It's a dangerous time today as well, even in the midst of our great prosperity. I recently heard George Barna say that mainline Christians in America have about 10 years to get it together or decline as Christianity has declined in Europe. In the middle of this dangerous time is Jesus offering bread! My sermon is titled "Love in a Dangerous Time." Jeff, NY


31 Jul 1999
08:19:02

A bit late, but things are finally coming together:

Someone wrote: "Jesus’ own sorrow leads him to greater compassion and understanding toward those who suffer - he had compassion on them and healed many of the sick. I'm not sure where you go with this, but I think there is some connection with what Nouwen called "the authority of genuine compassion."

The late Archbishop Michael Ramsey in his book *The Christian Priest Today* says that priests “are called, near to Jesus and with Jesus and in Jesus, to be with God with the people on our heart. That is what you will be promising when [the bishop says] to you ‘will you be diligent in prayers?’” You will be promising to be daily with God with the people on your heart.”

What strikes me in this text is that Jesus broke bread with the people on his heart. In the midst of his suffering, he takes time to help the needy—to break bread with the people on his heart. When I think of the suffering in the world—in my own life experience and in the experience of others—especially the gruesome, brutal suffering of injustice and oppressive attitudes and behavior—I might be moved to “get away” for a time, but the needy are crying out, and I am then motivated to action—to make a positive difference—because of the suffering. Is it not the case that when we (as individuals or as a community) come out (or are called out by another’s need) from our own solitude of grief and prayerful reflection we are empowered through it all to take positive action so that others will not suffer in the same way? Is it not a case of breaking bread with the people on our heart? Perhaps it is not only a case of being called for something beyond the disappointments, tragedies and situations that overwhelm us (as one person at dps has suggested) but that we are called out from them and because of them to break bread with the people on our heart? Is this what we mean by genuine compassion? Is this what would happen if our life were eucharist?

Jesus shows us in this story that out of his pain, and therefore out of our own pain, comes abundance. And baskets are full. . .and the hungry are fed...and thanksgiving is lived...

ml in pa


31 Jul 1999
15:02:28

Thanks everyone for the contributions. I especially like the idea of evil not being the last word. That Jesus ministered in this time of need and grief.

I was listening to a radio programme about bread the other day, and they commented that, as well as being essential, bread was almost regarded as holy in some cultures, because it was so neccessary to well being. In using bread, and referring to himself as the bread of life, Jesus pointed out just how fundamental He is to us. Not an added luxury, or even a delicacy to be looked for occassionally.

Happy preaching tomorrow! Ruth in N. Ireland


31 Jul 1999
15:37:56

I know this is late, but there have been a few references to the story in John. Not to put anyone or anything down, but we're dealing with MATTHEW'S version here, not John. I don't think we do either gospel a favor if we try to blend the stories. True, they are basically the same story, but they were written for two different audiences. Please don't confuse them! linda


31 Jul 1999
16:15:51

Has anyone noticed that the text does not say that Jesus "multiplied" physical objects or increased materials goods...just that after everyone ate, there was more left over... Not to confuse Matthew with John, but assuming that every "miracle" (our word) is a sign, what is this sign pointing to? Al, Upstate


31 Jul 1999
21:14:35

"miracle" (our word) is a sign, what is this sign pointing to?

Al- As I see it, I would say that the miracle is simply pointing to God. that's what mircles do. There don't have to be extra ordinary, super duper.... an act which glorifies god is a miracle.

Many helpful poin ts with the group this week.

In the main, it has been very positive, and stayed on task...Matt.. I see that Liberal,conservative, or fundimental... whatever bashing doers little but provoke division. I would ask our brothers and sisters to avoid it and ignore it. I'm sure that there are conservative seminaries where persons have faith in God and are "true to the Faith"... just as there are in liberal seminaries. what's the point to striking out at others in less than charity?

pastordon..... in elmira, NY


01 Aug 1999
03:44:53

A slight change (but an important one?): If anyone read my sermon posted for this week, please note that the Psalmist does not ask whether God can set a table in the wilderness. Rather, the Psalmist is recalling the forty years in the wilderness when the "people railed against God" and asked that question! Sorry if that misled anyone! First time I posted a sermon...IF I do it again, read with care! Thanks.

ml in pa


03 Aug 1999
07:58:58

TWELVE THE MOST IMPORTANT NUMBER

Jesus healed their sick out of his great compassion for John had just been beheaded out of Herod's passion

But now Jesus' chosen twelve showed no compassion for to be sent away hungry left them with only human passions

Surely these chosen twelve were only thinking about their own hunger for there was enough for them if they could dispell the crowd and hide their thunder

Jesus directed his chosen twelve to serve therefore they would be last to eat while calming their nerves

Now just what were the thoughts running through these chosen twelve was it that they would go hungry themselves

Aw but when the very las ones wer served there lay twelve baskets of food just for them and their nerves

Jesus healed their sick and fed them out of his great compassion and in doing so led his chosen few out of their own natural passion

Matt 14: 13-31 X August 1, 1999


03 Aug 1999
08:00:06

TWELVE THE MOST IMPORTANT NUMBER

Jesus healed their sick out of his great compassion for John had just been beheaded out of Herod's passion

But now Jesus' chosen twelve showed no compassion for to be sent away hungry left them with only human passions

Surely these chosen twelve were only thinking about their own hunger for there was enough for them if they could dispell the crowd and hide their thunder

Jesus directed his chosen twelve to serve therefore they would be last to eat while calming their nerves

Now just what were the thoughts running through these chosen twelve was it that they would go hungry themselves

Aw but when the very las ones wer served there lay twelve baskets of food just for them and their nerves

Jesus healed their sick and fed them out of his great compassion and in doing so led his chosen few out of their own natural passion

Matt 14: 13-31 X August 1, 1999


05 Aug 1999
18:48:47

Thank you all for your input. I found your insights very helpful in preaching last Sunday. I am just a lay minister and this is only my second time preaching. Thanks again. RHD3