12 Jul 1999
16:21:30

Have you understood all this? YES -

I am reminded when my father would tell me something when I was a child, or my teacher would ask it that was clear, and my response was "yes" for I did not wish to appear dumb. Do you think these disciples were any different?

tom in ga


14 Jul 1999
20:37:17

Tom--boy, the same thing lept out at me on first reading...You've got to be kidding! Who understands all this?

It is said in the Episcopal church about our medical insurance: in some diocese you get dental coverage and in some you get psychiatric, but never both. In other words, you need to know your own weakness. Do you tend more to "weeping and wailing", or "gnashing of teeth"?

Sara in GR,MI


15 Jul 1999
20:35:05

It seems to me that the mustard seed, yeast, and net are all things whose value isn't known until combined with other things: the seed, with the right mixture of soil, water and sun; the yeast, with water and flour, etc.; and the net must be placed in a lake full of fish! I'm just beginning my theological thinking on this passage. I'm wondering how this all connects with the Kingdom. What images does it evoke? What part does the church have? ...perhaps we are the soil, flour, etc. Ideas? I haven't even begun to read my commentaries at this point...just thinking out loud again.

Grace and Peace, Melanie


16 Jul 1999
09:43:09

Here's some stuff I read. The mission of the church and each baptized Christian is to serve the reign of God. But what is the reign of God? In today's gospel reading, Jesus offers images drawn from ordinary life that reveal something of the reign of God. It is like a tree that becomes a safe and sheltering home, like yeast that penetrates and expands, like a treasured pearl, like a net that gains a great catch. The reign of God is God's steadfast desire to unite the human family, with all its great diversity, in a justice and mercy so great and thoroughly life-giving that people will rejoice at its advent. How are baptism and the eucharist signs of its presence among us? The wise investor hunts for bargains year around. The prudent shopper is always on the lookout for a sale. What do you watch for? Stocks? Property? Stamps? Coins? Antiques? Sea shells? Low-cost airfares? The parables of Jesus prod us to seek what is of ultimate importance - the good and gentle rule of God through Jesus Christ. Is it worth all the money in your wallet to buy today what you know for sure will be tomorrow's winning ticket? Of course it is. What we get is God's grace, life, and forgiveness. God placed this precious treasure on a shelf made by the timbers of a cross. Hidden, yet exposed. Revealed and available. All that it takes is people who know a tremendous bargain when they see one. You have nothing, you say? You have nothing to give in return for Jesus Christ. Bingo! To admit you have nothing is the price. The choices we make over the summer are a good indication of our priorities. The faithful folk who show up at church on summer Sundays know their weakness and they know Christ's strength. The Spirit of God is what helps us to make the right choice - and to take the plunge - and buy. Tom in Ontario


18 Jul 1999
03:39:07

Great thoughts already! Tom in Ont, pretty good analysis there. That will certainly preach. I have the feeling that the problem this week may be that it will preach so well the sermon could run for hours. Limiting the topic is going to be more important for me than covering it, I'm afraid. RevBill


18 Jul 1999
14:39:58

I don't recall where this idea came from, but here goes. For the variety of images presented in these five parables, they also have some things in common: 1) each item is hidden before it comes to light (whether in the ground, in the bread, or in the sea); 2) human hands are involved in revealing what was once hidden; 3) all of the items are part of daily life and are tangible...

ml in pa


18 Jul 1999
16:54:43

Tom in Ontario -- I don't think I have to read any farther. From whatever source...that seems to be right on and ready to start preaching. Thanks. RevKK


18 Jul 1999
16:55:55

ER..."FURTHER" --humbly, revkk


18 Jul 1999
20:34:14

I'm a new contributor here, but in thinking about these images of the Kingdom, it seems to me that the Kingdom of God is reaaly more of a verb to me than a noun; the reigning of God, more than the reign. These images have parallels with each other, but in some cases the Kingdom is the subject, in some the object, etc....but in each case what I see is growth. MAL in NY


18 Jul 1999
21:01:17

I like what Tom in Ontario has to say. Marting Franzmann, in his book "Follow Me: Discipleship According to St. Matthew" [CPH 1961] has something similar. Permit me to share it. Luther once said, “’When God begins a thing, it always looks as if nothing will come of it.’ and believe it and adore it. ” [p. 113] “Jesus gave His disciples a profoundly religious appreciation of the word....’The poor have good news preached to them’ (11:5)...Both the parable of the Sower and the parable of the Weeds Among the Wheat picture the coming of the Kingdom as a coming by the word.... ‘He who sows the good seed is the Son of man’ (13:1-9, 18-23, 24-30, 36-43). The disciples learned, as Elijah once learned, that the LORD is not necessarily in the great and strong wind which rends the mountains and breaks the rocks in pieces, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire; the LORD is in ‘the still small voice’ (! Kings 19:11, 12). He comes to men in a word that men can contradict and shout down. “The disciples learned that God’s great beginnings take the form of insignificant unspectacular beginnings... Jesus expounds the coming of the Kingdom in farm and kitchen metaphors ... and emphasizes the coming of the Kingdom in insignificance, like the mustard seed, which is the smallest of seeds, like the dab of leaven which a housewife puts into her dough (13:31-33).” [pp. 118-119] “The leaven works imperceptibly but also irresistibly toward a total penetration, a fully achieved goal -- ‘till it was all leavened” (13:33).” [p. 120] “It comes to this: the Messiah is a Servant (12:17-21), and the Kingdom is a ‘secret’ (13:11). The splendor of the Messianic fulfillment begins with the very opposite of splendor, with a Servant-Messiah whose only weapon is the word...who goes the insignificant way of ministry to men whose ruined and desperate lives make them like the bruised reed and the smoldering wick (12:20). [p. 121] Stan in No. Wis.


18 Jul 1999
21:10:37

Sorry about that! Please delete the words "and believe it and adore it" from my quote of Martin Franzmann. Stan /No.Wis.


19 Jul 1999
06:18:50

I am saying farewell to the church I have been interning in this year during all the masses this Sunday. I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions of how to link the readings with the idea of departure, and change? I would love to be able to link my farewell speech with the readings in a sort of total homily.

Jeff P. TX


19 Jul 1999
07:58:38

To Jeff P. TX: You might think of your internship as yet another parable of the Kingdom of God (i.o.w. one more thing that the Kingdom of God is LIKE...). You most likely have been there a relatively short time, and yet the seeds that have been planted (by you in the congregation and by them in you) will continue to grow and bear fruit. The value of the "precious little pearl of a time" that you all have had together will not be fully appreciated until later. Like all parables or similes, this one is limited and certainly cannot fully explain or represent the awesome Kingdom of God, but it is something that you all can relate to right now, and then let it point you to something far greater. Just a thought. (I always "steal" so many wonderful insights from this site, and I figured it was time to try to give something back - my first contribution!). Sam in Miami


19 Jul 1999
08:16:05

OK, now that I'm started I can't stop...! I like what MAL in NY said about the kingdom being a verb. It reminds me that Jesus is not really comparing the kingdom to 5 THINGS, but rather 5 ACTIONS. For example, he doesn't say that the kingdom of heaven is like A PEARL; he says it's like a merchant IN SEARCH OF pearls. It's like a mustard seed... that SOMEONE TOOK AND SOWED, like yeast... that a woman TOOK AND MIXED; like a treasure... that someone FOUND AND HID; like a net... THAT WAS THROWN. It may sound really obvious, but all of these THINGS are useless... unless they are used! So the Kingdom of God is not some lifeless thing that we can look at and appreciate: it is life and action and response to God's call. (Sorry to start writing my whole sermon here on line!) but, as usual, thanks for the fuel! Sam in Miami


19 Jul 1999
17:01:48

Sam in miami- you are on a roll with

<< It reminds me that Jesus is not really comparing the kingdom to 5 THINGS, but rather 5 ACTIONS.>>

like it.... brings it to life...

just returned from a week at chatauqua institute where tony campolo and tom troeger brought the gospel to life... asked myself "how were they doing it?".... they were sensitive, gentle, and energized it with verbs.

Have not been writing to DPS recently, but reading and keeping up with discussions. I'm grateful to those who written with grace and caring. now if we can keep this discussion focused on the text and void of harsh judgements and bickering, which seemes to have occupied some of the discussion in the past... it should be profitable.

donhoff-elmira,ny


19 Jul 1999
17:10:47

A few more thoughts. Leaven is so often used as a symbol of evil influence. Was Jesus use of it to describe the kingdom supposed to startle or is it to be regarded as neutral? It can proclaim growth and influence but the quality is left in question. Christian influence does not always have guaranteed permanence. The treasure in the field was found by accident while the pearl was found after a long search. Part of the treasure could be spent but in the case of the pearl it is the whole treasure. Any meaning behind this that any of you can see? I don't think you'd expect the disciples to understand the meaning of the parables in Mark but it may not be so unusual in Matthew. The kingdom is such a priceless treasure that the finder of the treasure is filled with "joy." S/he would give all for the chance to seize it. The focus is not on the poor ethics of the finder but that the desirability and joy of the kingdom makes one willing to give up everything and not count it as loss. A few thoughts from my exegesis tonight. Tom in Ontario


19 Jul 1999
17:28:33

I posted a rather lengthy "story" on the sermon page, inspired by Nailbender (and Frederick Buechner). Would appreciate any feedback, especially as to whether it's appropo for the pulpit this Sunday.

--Barry in OH


20 Jul 1999
03:05:19

A laugh, a smile, a bit of joy, an entry into a world which was never known. A touch, skin on skin, the gentleness of feeling. A knowing glance, goodness and life. Who could ever want anything more, once life is experienced. A bit of life given to the other, in the midst of fear, in the province of sorrow, a joke about the cosmic humor of it all. Ahhhh, a pearl.

Pearls of glass and fiber. A roof, one that doesn't leak under the mystery of rain. A roof, dry and strong and comforting, an experience in compassion and hope. A roof offered up with sweat and effort and time. A roof offered up through the promise of rough lumber married in a cross. Why would anyone choose other roads. Ahhhh, a pearl. Everything else is only count as lost. Everything lost but for roads which meet.

Meeting her today, in the twilight of years, slow rising from a place of rest. Creaking floors and creaking bones and through it all --- a chuckle in the moment of discomfort. And yet, in my discomfort, a drink of cold water on a hot day. Little things, little and splendid and growing ever larger. Exploding into exclamations of delight. Maybe even a mustard seed. Who … who might pass the celebration … who?

Someone unknown in a place which threatens, but threats only exist in the realm which remains unknown, in the place unopened to the possibilities of gladness. Dark, light - black, white, or red, each with their back to the other. Yet, the plow blade turns over the black dirt of covenant and treasures appear. All else is but the empty chattel of tarnished rubble - all else is clutter. And we who now commune, we who now move beyond the darkness, we find the chest and sell everything. Richer.

Yet, the world beckons…whispers, "you should be richer." Calling us to prestige, calling us to power, calling us to possessions which will possess. Quiet possession, subtle and sweet, stealing the moment and stealing the soul. A gift, certainly, but not from God. In pieces, bit by bit. Reveling in our loss, the ecstasy of seduction. And in the end, death - but death passed by the little ones among us, by those who have no choice. Blessed are they who mourn and join in the place of the promise. Blessed are they and blessed are we who know them. Blessed. Ahhhh, a bit of fish, enough for you and enough for me … joined together. Communion. Joined together on a dusty road, joined together in the sojourn of time. Joined together in the only place where joining occurs.

Joined in salvation from a broken beam, where even a thief might find reprieve. Salvation from the least of all.

And they answered, "Yes."

Shalom,

Nail-Bender in NC


20 Jul 1999
04:39:25

Barry -

Thank you my friend for your awesome story of the reality of pearls and seeds. In the darkness of doubt, in the midst of death, beyond the busyness of our lives, the light does shine and beckon to us all. For certainly, where human compassion and human need meet, there is the Christ and the cross.

Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC


20 Jul 1999
04:39:43

I haven't read any of the contributions above, but am printing them out for later. So if I'm repeating anything, I apologize. . . . My Upper Room "Disciplines" (lectionary-based daily reflections on the texts) suggests there are SIX parables here, not the five I had assumed from my original reading. (The one I omitted was the one in v. 52 -- and perhaps there are different opinions as to whether that really is a parable or not.) Anyhow, for my church this Sunday, I believe there WILL be six -- and I'm gonna call the sermon "A Heavenly Six-Pack." :-) (I DO believe there can be new treasures along with the old in our local congregation. And we really need to start looking for them -- before it's too late.) While in prayer and meditation on this Gospel lection Monday morning, I felt inspiration to undertake a Bible Study group focused on the Parables of Jesus, starting in September. The parables are such windows to the Kingdom, to the eternal. Perhaps we can whet their appetites a bit this Sunday.

Dave K. in Ohio <><


20 Jul 1999
07:00:07

I am searching for a story about Mayor LaGuardia of New York. One night he dismissed the presiding judge and held court himself. A woman was accused of stealing a loaf of bread and LaGuardia handled it quite brilliantly. Anyone know this story?

Dick in Va.


20 Jul 1999
09:05:21

Some insights I gleaned from Joachim Jeremias -- the oriental/eastern mind did not think in terms of "process" as we westerners do...the process of growth wasn't really the intent of the parable, but the contrast between the seemingly insignificant beginning and the miraculous result. (When we concentrate on the process of growth...as I am prone to do...we sort of take essence of the holy mystery down to common process.) Also, Jerimias says that the phrase "the kingdom of God is like" is better translated and understood as "the kingdom of God is likened unto" -- what that does is change the object of the simile, as the post-er above suggested, from the subject to the whole. (That is, the kingdom is likened to the whole story, ie "action" rather than it being like the person or thing who acts.) RevKK


20 Jul 1999
09:06:09

Some insights I gleaned from Joachim Jeremias -- the oriental/eastern mind did not think in terms of "process" as we westerners do...the process of growth wasn't really the intent of the parable, but the contrast between the seemingly insignificant beginning and the miraculous result. (When we concentrate on the process of growth...as I am prone to do...we sort of take essence of the holy mystery down to common process.) Also, Jerimias says that the phrase "the kingdom of God is like" is better translated and understood as "the kingdom of God is likened unto" -- what that does is change the object of the simile, as the post-er above suggested, from the subject to the whole. (That is, the kingdom is likened to the whole story, ie "action" -- rather than it being "like" the person or thing in the story.) RevKK


20 Jul 1999
09:41:06

Have you noticed that joy is often missing in people's live? When was the last time you saw someone at church filled with joy. Instead we see folks as depressed and anxiety proned as everyone else. The parable of discovering the pearl is one of joy. When Jesus Christ enters our lives we should be filled with joy. And that joy should be evident in all we do.

Just a thought,

Love, Paula in FL


20 Jul 1999
10:39:53

Dick in VA -- You are looking for an illustration out of Brennan Manning's RAGAMUFFIN GOSPEL, p. 91-92.

Jeff P. in TX -- What a gift you would give to your congregation to express your gratitude for the seeds they have planted/ yeast they have been/etc. in your own life and ministry! It will be a given to them that you have planted seeds/etc, and they probably don't need to be reminded of all you have done for them. But, to thank them for what they have done for you, empowers them to continue to be church beyond your leadership. That is a generous gift any of us can offer our congregations. Peace, Meredith in VA


20 Jul 1999
11:54:15

I found it!!!James N. McCutcheon tells a wonderful story of Fiorello LaGuardia. LaGuardia was mayor of New York City during the worst days of the Great Depression and all of World War II. He was called by adoring New Yorkers "the Little Flower" because he was only five foot four and always wore a carnation in his lapel. He was a colorful character who "used to ride the New York City fire trucks, raid speakeasies with the police department, take entire orphanages to baseball games, and whenever the New York newspapers were on strike ... he used to go on radio and read the Sunday 'funnies' to the kids."

One bitterly cold night in January of 1935, the mayor turned up at a night court that served the poorest ward of the city. LaGuardia dismissed the judge for the evening and took over the bench himself. Within a few minutes, a tattered old woman was brought before him, charged with stealing a loaf of bread. "She told LaGuardia that her daughter's husband had deserted her, her daughter was sick and her grandchildren were starving. But the shopkeeper, from whom the bread was stolen, refused to drop the charges. 'It's a bad neighborhood, your Honor,' the man told the mayor. 'She's got to be punished to teach other people around here a lesson.'

"LaGuardia sighed. He turned to the woman and said 'I've got to punish you ... The law makes no exceptions - $10 or ten days in jail.'" But even as he pronounced sentence, the mayor was already reaching into his pocket. He extracted a bill and tossed it into his famous sombrero saying:

"Here's the $10.00 fine which I now remit; and furthermore I'm going to fine everyone in this courtroom 50 cents for living in a town where a person has to steal bread so that her grandchildren can eat. Mr. Bailiff, collect the fines and give them to the defendant.

"So the following day the New York City newspapers reported that $47.50 was turned over to a bewildered old lady who had stolen a loaf of bread to feed her starving grandchildren, 50 cents of that amount being contributed by the red-faced grocery store owner, while some 70 petty criminals, people with . traffic violations, and New York City policemen, each of whom had just paid fifty cents for the privilege of doing so, gave the mayor a standing ovation." --James N. McCutcheon, "The Righteous and the Good." Best Sermons 1, ed. James W. Cox (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1988), 238-39.

Dick in VA.


20 Jul 1999
12:20:07

Some commentaties I've read did point out the evil connotations of leaven and tried to interpret thusly. I think, however, in context, Jesus didn't intend it as a sign of evil. That would separate it from the other similes used in the parable. Leaven may have been used often in scripture with that purpose, but remember, in real life, the Jews didn't consider leaven itself 'sinful.' It was not against the dietary laws - it was only forbidden on Passover. So the leaven is like the mustard seed - something that begins insifnificantly, but in the end is something great. I also like the illustration of values I came across. The pearl of great value (price) is called so without exaggeration. The ancients new nothing of 'cultured' pearls, and diving for pearls was a risky business. So all pearls were valuable, but some of special size, beauty and luster were valuable almost beyond measure! My family and I learned at Sea World this summer that some colored pearls, esp. black ones, are quite rare and greatly increase the pearl's worth. So the merchant finds an exceptional one, and knows that giving up all his possessions is really no risk if he can gain that pearl. It will be worth every sacrifice to possess something of such value. Ken in WV


20 Jul 1999
13:21:38

Isn't it interesting, in light of the discussions of the past couple of weeks, that four of the parables in today's text have no allegorical/canonical interpretation attached to them? Just as the protagonists in these parables act in free and surprising ways, perhaps we have a certain freedom from allegory when we let these parables "fall on us like a rain shower," as my NT professor, Burton Throckmorton, is fond of saying.

James Breech, in his book "The Silence of Jesus - The Authentic Voice of the Historical Jesus," has a thought-provoking chapter on what he calls the "photodramatic" (limited to external descriptions of visible actions) parables of Jesus, e.g.: The kingdom of God is like this: · There was a man who found treasure hidden in a field, which he covered up; then he went and sold all that he had and bought that field. · There was a merchant who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. · There was a man who took a grain of mustard seed and sowed it in his garden, and it became a shrub, and the birds made nests in its shade. · There was a shepherd who had a hundred sheep, and one of them went astray. He left the ninety-nine on the hills and looked for that one. · There was a woman who took leaven, and hid it in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened. · There was a man who went out to sow, and as he sowed, some seed fell on the road, other seed fell on rocky ground, other seed fell on thorns, and other seed fell on good soil. · There was a woman who had ten silver coins, and she lost one. She lit a lamp and swept diligently looking for that one.

In these parables, Jesus simply describes what someone did, and the "telling prompts our questioning" without giving us definite answers.

Freed from allegory, we are free to live or write our own narratives and meditations as commentaries on these photodramatic parables--narratives and meditations like those with which Barry in OH and Nailbender in NC have gifted us this week.

Doug in Riverside


20 Jul 1999
18:47:14

I wonder what the significance of the Kigdom of God being like a "Shrub"? And an annual one at that. Not an evergreen. Nor a Cedar of Lebanon (Jewish metaphor of the time). Instead, an annual whose branches would never hold a small bird much less a nest of eggs and the mother's duff. Jesus was a strange fellow talking about this Kingdom of God as he does. I wonder if that's significant? PWinPA


20 Jul 1999
19:56:58

How often we fail to see the treasure hidden under our noses. We fail to hear the call that we are to be ministers, not members.

This week I am in preparations for 3 memorial Celebrations. One far PFC Barry Winchell tommorrow. He was killed by the men of his barracks because he was Gay. How can I share authentically the "Life Abundant" that Jesus came to share with his partner? How can I say that he had search for the treasure of God's love and found it through the beating to lifelessness of his Body by men who claim to be doing it in the name of OUR God.

Then I contrast it to the two men that are dying one of MS very slowly and how they to can find the treasure that they have been given. For they are treasures. What do they have to look forward to today? Where can they find the next place of God in the God that gave? IN many ways I have found it easier to deal with the AIDS patients - they at least I can understand. They looked for joy, but fell short of what they longed for. They who are rejected by most churches come to us to find the great treasure in their hearts and to rise again as teh Pheonix from the beds of death to joyful song around the throne.

Blessings Greg in Nashville


20 Jul 1999
21:49:28

My attention was snagged by the parable about the one pearl of great value. I think that some churches get snagged by this parable too, evangelically. When the church evangelizes, we are looking for that one pearl of great value, perhaps overlooking or by-passing many pearls of value. God calls us all pearls of great value.

We may not all be perfectly round pearls, or pearls with just the right hue and tint, or even pearls of the right color (like the valued black pearl that Ken in WV mentioned), but we are all valuable. Someone may be only the speck of sand that irritates the oyster, that begins the formation of the pearl.

The church risks all for the one pearl of great value while marginalizing many pearl of lesser value. I would suggest a collection of pearls -- perhaps to make a necklace. Miller in NC


21 Jul 1999
06:59:19

Miller in NC: Some of us have churches full of those specks of sand which seem to really irritate the oysters! Others of we pastors are the specks of sand, irritating the oysters out of their contentment. revup


21 Jul 1999
07:32:27

So much good and helpful insight! Thank you all! Greg, I am saddened and heavy-hearted about the death in your midst. Please know that you and all those involved will be in my prayers. In reference to the last several comments about the pearl of great price... I agree that sometimes we (churches/pastors/Christians) try to look for the "pearl of great price" in our evangelism. This person would be a great member. Wouldn't it be nice to add that fellow/gal to our finance committee, etc. I think the key is to remember who Jesus felt and not how we feel. Maybe we're not to be looking for a necklace, but to be remembering and proclaiming that each of God's children, individually and alone, are worth everything to Jesus! We may be flawed and imperfect in our own eyes or thru the eyes of others, but in the eyes of God (seen through the offering of Christ), we are all perfect pearls of great price -- worth everything. (This might tie in abit with the Romans passage... what can seperate us from the love of GOd?!?!) Blesings my friends -- RevAmy (also in TN)


21 Jul 1999
09:34:32

Some thoughts on a few ideas/images in the great posts this week...

LEAVEN , MUSTARD SEED-- Leave was often a symbol of evil, perhaps going back centuries in Israelite culture to the times of "unleavened bread" (the first of which of course was the Exodus, when there simply wasn't time for the leavening of bread). I'm reminded that Jesus often took what was considered bad/evil/impure and held it up as the beloved of God--whether it be a prostitute, a tax collector, a Samaratin adultress, a MUSTARD SEED (the mustard plant was a ravaging weed to Palestinian farmers), leaven..even, gads, a Roman centurion. And in so doing, there was/is a judgement, especially against the boundary-makers (those "pure" or rich or powerful, whomever substitute for codes of promise those of seperation and limited vision)...the kingdom IS a verb, all the time, even when we aren't aware of it, or of what we are doing and judging. We NEVER stop judging. The question is, like in the case of Mayor LaGuardia, what will our standard be? These parables point to a different standard than we are used to in our judgements.

JOY -- And one of Jesus' obvious standards is indeed, what will bring JOY to life...not momentary satiation, or ordinary happiness, which are as fleeting as rain in the desert.

THE CONTEXT (YET AGAIN) -- the Jewish Christians of the late first century were like a mustard seed, or leaven, to their fellow Israelites, and later, to the Romans as well. Impure. Dangerous. A threat to the goodness of the whole. Deluded. Small and insignificant. But to the faithful, a pearl of great price, for which one would give all--and often had to, in the face of such persecution. A treasure hidden perhaps to most eyes, but not to those who knew Christ as compassionate judge and bearer of God-truth, who EXPERIENCED Christ this way. What a witness history is to the parables of Jesus--these parables, especially--as the Christians not only survived but thrived as Rome shrank from history's stage, and Judaism spawned a child that vastly outgrew her in size and scope (though not necessarily importance, and though it abused her parent horribly, of course, over the years).

The Erie Preach-Creech ("Creech" by the way is for "creature", and is a nickname from the high school wrestling team, eons ago)


21 Jul 1999
15:00:19

Adding to some of the contributions made so far, along the lines that these parables point to the smallness, hiddeness and insignificance of the beginnings as compared to the greatness of the final result(thanks to Tom in Ontario and to those who put forward Jeramias' insightful thoughts): I keep going back to the early chapters of Eugene Peterson's Book "The Contemplative Pastor", where he describes the Kingdom of God as "subversive" (maybe this ties in with the idea of the leaven as a "negative" image). God's kingdom grows without our seeing or noticing it - like yeast rising the dough, like a seed pushing slowly but constantly through the soil (cf. Mark 4).It comes to us as a serendipitous shock, like and of God's wedge". We are citizens of a foreign kingdom which slowly (unoticed) breaking into this world. It reminds me of a great little story about a pastor who was sick of having conversations dry up on him when he mentioned his job. One day, as he was having his hair cut, the haridresser (making conversation)asked what he did for a living. the pastor decided to give a different answer. He said "Well, actually I am an undercover agent". Our subversive gospel always comes into the world as a counter-cultural reality, working by different rules and defying popular wisdom and methodology. Thanks. SP in Melbourne,Aus.


21 Jul 1999
15:10:06

I find myself agreeing with Erie Preach-Creech that "Jesus often took what was considered bad or impure and held it up as the beloved of God."

Thomas Keating in "The Kingdom of God is Like..." reminds us that leaven was a symbol of corruption-----symbolizing the unholy, the profane, of everyday life. He says, "The Jewish religion of the time identified everyday life with corruption, and the sacred with the temple rituals. Jesus teaches that everyday life is the place of the sacred-----the temple is no longer the place to look for it."

"Recalling Jesus' custom of reaching out in table fellowship with the outcasts of society, the kingdom of God is revealed to be active in marginal people and in the marginalized."

So where is the kingdom if it is not in the holy, the sacred, and the acceptable places? Jesus, by his example and preaching, says, "Look for it in the most unexpected places!"

Barry in Ohio, thank you for your story of experiencing the kingdom in an unexpected place. Greg, my prayers are with you.

Peace, A Fellow Sojourner


21 Jul 1999
20:10:04

Greg, We offered special intentions for Barry and his partner in our Eucharist this morning: may God continue to bless you in your ministry and witness.

I am struck by the parallel between the various icons of the kingdom (or "reign") that Jesus offers and our own experience here at dps. "Have you understood all this?" we ask each other, week after week -- and for many of us the answer is "not yet" -- but the pulpit looms anyway. Thanks be to God for those willing to share the pearls they have found: to spread the leaven they have discovered. It is in such communion that the Word is truly born -- the Good News preached -- the Kingdom glimpsed. Blessing, my brothers and sisters. Susan in SanPedro


21 Jul 1999
22:17:36

The kingdom of God is like...

a mustard seed- it requires planting, it gives shelter, a safe place to live and grow

yeast- takes mixing with all we are, expands and makes us whole

a treasure- requires to loose everything we have, gives us eternal joy

a pearl- requires searching, we receive the most valuable thing

a net- requires sorting out, it nurtures our lives

IR, VA


21 Jul 1999
22:29:40

The master baker had one of his strange ideas.

He took a bunch of them and spread them in the big white mass and mixed them in. To the eyes of everyone this was a great mistake, spreading them like this was like mixing the white pure flour with yeast. Something of so little value, they could not even talk the same language, some were not as educated as the rest or have enough money. Strange plan indeed, but the master baker mixed them in anyway, he struggle with the big white mass that resisted the yeast, but he continued patiently mixing the yeast in. After some time had passed the bread was taken out of the oven, bigger and more delicious than it could have been without the little insignificant yeast. Worth to ponder...

Latina


21 Jul 1999
23:45:04

This week's OT passage could sound just like a parable. The kingdom of heaven is like a man who falls deeply in love with a woman for whose hand he joyfully toils 14 years in her father's service. This Jacob is hardly different from the two folks in v44 and v45 who sell everything for their newfound treasures.

DeepSouth Steve cc. OT page


22 Jul 1999
00:15:33

Dear Greg,

The hate-crime murder saddens me terribly: in part, for the sheer terror of such madness, and in part for our nation and churches, which allow this one form of bigotry to exist, almost without shame. (Other bigotries at least are considered shameful.) Shame on every one of us that ever tells a "gay joke" -- or worse. It is small comfort to know that in the end such evil will be separated....

May God give you what ever strength you need toget through the week!

Aloha,

HW in HI


22 Jul 1999
05:30:26

All this talk of the kingdom starting small and becoming great is so intriguing.

I think in musical phrases and this brings to mind the song from "My Fair Lady" where Eliza Doolittle's father sings: "Just a littl' bit, just a littl' bit, just a littl' bit o' bloomin' luck."

How marvelous the Kingdom of our God of the unexpected...people...places...things! I sing in my sermons on occasion. Perhaps I'll use the above, but adapt the lyrics to be a "littl' bit o' blooming grace." Hmmnnnn...blooming grace???????

This is my first posting. Thanks to all for the grist for the mill!

MBW in GA


22 Jul 1999
06:32:48

In focusing on the parable of the treasure discovered in the field I want my audience to get in touch with what that treasure for which they would give up all they had might be. I am assuming that such a treasure would be meeting some deeply felt need that a person yearns to have met. I will ask my congregation to particpate in a guided meditation at the beginning of the service. I will ask them to close their eyes and visualize themselves in that feild and discovering this great treasure for themselves. What will it be? Then in the sermon I will share my own discovery as I went on that walk through the field. I found a letter from my parents, church youth counselors, teachers and colleagues. This letter told me that they understood my 20 year absence from the ministry as a journey which I was suppose to be on. I felt their love and forgiveness for my having left the ministry and their encouragement to let go of the guilt I felt for having left and celebrate my return. Of course, I felt that it was also a message from God saying the same thing. "Eston, you were not off track thouse twenty years. You were going down the road which brought you right back to where you were suppose to be today."

That is an experience of the kingdom of God for me. I hope my congregation will discover that hidden treasure for themselves, too!

Eston Williams, Mabank Texas


22 Jul 1999
06:50:31

Yes, Doug of Riverside, it's all about our own life stories, our own life experiences--the places in our lives where God meets us. Thanks to Barry in OH and Nail Bender for that beautiful story of Mary. After a week (at least) of discomfort, and unease, and searching and not finding, with that story came peace. The struggles of ministry, combined with my own internal struggles, threaten to overwhelm me, and with that story--peace returns. The pearl of great price indeed! A needed reminder or who I am as minister, of who we all are, and what we are about. Thank you my blessed friends for again being God's instruments. Dot


22 Jul 1999
09:23:48

I came across something about the kingdom of God. We pray "your kingdom come, your will be done" so maybe the kingdom is where the will of God is done. You hear so much what the kingdom of God "is like" but what "is it?" There is some great stuff here this week. Now the task is melting it down to a usable size and a coherent form for my sermon. Wish me luck. Tom in Ontario.


22 Jul 1999
10:49:58

Greg in Nashville,

My prayers are with you as you attempt to share Christ with those in mourning, with AIDS patients, and people having to deal with MS.

But I can't help but wonder if you might fill us in on how you know for certain that PFC Winchell was killed because he was gay and that the killers did it in the name of OUR God.

I've read numerous newspaper accounts of this tragedy so far and although I acknowledge that the press doesn't always get it right, I've seen little to suggest that the murder was committed because Gary was gay (except for referencing those organizations that are bringing forth the charges) and certainly nothing to suggest that the killers did this in the name of God.

Murder is horrendous. Noone can defend the cold-blooded killing of another human being. But can we definitvely state at this point that sexuality and/or faith had anything to do with this despicable crime?

Political gain should never be accomplished at the expense of truth. I think and believe it is far too early to be blaming or linking opponents of the sin of homosexuality with this horrific killing. And that seems to be the implication of your post.

Wouldn't this kind of thinking lead to the charge that those many Christian martyrs, who've given their lives in places like the Sudan, China and yes, Columbine, for the spread of the gospel and for the love of Christ in this century (more than those killed in previous centuries combined), are being killed because of liberal theology that denies the exclusivity of Christianity or the importance of sinless lifestyles?

My prayers are that the killers are brought to justice, that Barry is welcomed into the arms of Jesus, and that his family and friends can be comforted by God's Holy Spirit.

Rick in Va


22 Jul 1999
11:34:04

Rick in VA: Yes, it seems we are always ready to assume the worst of people. My wife's homosexual landlord many years ago was beaten up visciously, and everyone assumed it was because he was homosexual. I later found out FROM HIM that it was his own homosexual supposed friends who beat him and left him naked in the street. I am also curious of two things. 1. Why do we assume hate crimes were done in the name of God and 2. Why do we assume homosexuals do not love God? revup


22 Jul 1999
11:38:25

This Sunday is also the commemoration of St. James the Elder. You remember, John's brother, one of the "sons of thunder," who in Mark 10 asks to sit at Jesus' righ/left hand when Jesus comes into his glory; and professes he can drink of the cup that Jesus drinks. Executed during the feast of the Passover in c.AD 43, this is an example of "Be careful what you pray for." Ironically, the hour of Jesus' glorification is on the cross. Any other help for me out there? PastorBBB in Philadelphia


22 Jul 1999
14:41:59

Dear friends,

Thomas H. Troeger in the "New Proclamation" series suggests that with so many parables of the "kingdom of heaven" in the gospels (i.e. Matt. 13) that in the same Spirit, we can dare to risk creating new parables of our own.

He has suggested: "The kingdom of God is like Isaac Newton being struck by a falling apple. A tiny event: then physics." or "The kingdom of God is like a black woman named Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on a segregated bus. A tiny act: then a civil rights movement." or "The kingdom of God is like the adult neighbor who when you were a child gave you lemonade on her porch and told you that you could become whatever you wanted to be. A tiny kindness: then a fulfilling life." or "The kingdom of God is like one more infant among all the billions that have been born, only this one in a manger at midnight. A tiny new life: then teh salvation of the world."

This is my last Sunday in my present parish before taking a one year leave from ministry (unpaid "sabbatical") to do something completely different. I am intrigued by the invitation to create a few new "parables" that describe the presence of the kingdom here and that might attempt to draw together 12 1/2 years of shared ministry here in a way that might encourage people to think about life here in new ways - and to invite them to think about other "parables" of the kingdom, too.

i.e: "the kingdom of heaven is like the dream of a new building addition that would open the worship and fellowship and staff offices up to people of all ages and physical abilites - a project that inspired several people to make sacrificial gifts in order that this dream might become a reality." or "The kingdom of heaven is like Sunday School teachers, and Release Time teachers and confirmation teachers and vacation bible school teachers who were willing to take precious time out of their already busy days and weeks - not only to teach but in order to come to class prepared." or "The kingdom of heaven is like those who faithfully gather for worship on warm summer days and bitterly cold winter mornings because they have experienced the presence of God and a fellowship of other people of faith that is just too good to miss." or "The kingdom of heaven is like a farm family that is willng to bet the farm on the hope of one good crop even after several devasating years." or "The kingdom of heaven is like a young carpenter turned itinerant preacher who was willing to give his all - even his life on the cross - in order to save a lost and fallen world."

or "The kingdom of heaven is like foster parents and those who provide safe havens for abused adults and children or school grandparents who welcome strangers into their homes and into their lives and love them unconditionally for as long as they are needed or as long as they are able." or "The kingdom of heaven is like those who are willing to work in a kitchen to seve one non-menber funeral after another because they recognize the importance of this ministry in Jesus name to the grieving." or "The kingdom of heaven is like those adults who keep coming to bible studies because they understand learning and growing in faith never ends." or "The kingdom of heaven is like the Bartholomews, the James son of Alpheaeus', and Thadaeus', of our day whose words and deeds - and even their names - have been forgotten yet who have sustained the church and ensured it's growth in faithful ways.

The congregations have enriched me in many ways and I'm sure the seeds of their friendship and the memories we've shared will indeed take root and grow in my life and in the life of my family, too. I pray that were I have been faithful to the proclamation of the gospel the Spirit will enable those seeds to take root and bear fruit, too, and where I have failed that the congregation will forgive me - perhaps even forget.

If you have any suggestions in this attempt I'd be interested. Would this be appropriate? It seems it can indeed be faithful proclamation.

Grace and peace, Jerry in MN


22 Jul 1999
18:39:18

Ooooh, Jerry in MD -- I like it! RevKK


22 Jul 1999
19:25:35

Jerry in Mn,

Your thoughts are most appropriate and worthy of proclamation. Here's hoping that your 'something different' in the coming year is fruitful, restful, peaceful and as hopeful as your parables...

God's blessings on you and yours,

Rick in Va


22 Jul 1999
20:22:09

Greg,

It is always difficult for those of us who have never felt the brutality of hatred to understand what it is like to feel hatred directed in such a horrific way. Please forgive us when we don't seem to respond in a way which would seem appropriate in light of the fear and anguish brought about by such a crime. I am glad that you seek to proclaim the light of Christ and the promise of God's presence to the community of faith. I hold you in my prayers, my brother.

Shalom my friend, Nail-Bender in NC


22 Jul 1999
23:39:05

Thank you so much dear brothers and sisters for all your wonderful thoughts and insights. All of you truly help me each week. And, this week is not the exception, from a lot of the comments and my own studying, I decided to title my sermon: "Sneak Previews." Jesus was giving the disciples a sneak preview of what the kingdom of God is. And Jerry from MN, Latina, Rev KK, tom in ga, rick in VA, well... all of your coments have just confirmed that we also have parables in our midst about the kingdom of God. We just need to enjoy the refreshments and enjoy the sneak previews of where we will spend all eternity. God bless you this coming weekend. Latino in WY


23 Jul 1999
05:19:11

Last Friday night I watched a documentary on ABC called “The supernatural”. It wasn’t about ghosts and goolies, and things that go bump in the night. It was a scientific documentary about the unseen forces that govern so much of our lives and the world in which we live - without us even knowing it: invisible magnetic fields in the earth’s crust, which enable migratory birds to find the same nest on the same beach on the same shore on the same island over thousands of miles, year after year; enormous though unseen electric gravitational forces that govern the tides and the weather. Things which we cannot see, cannot understand, but yet effect us profoundly. And scientists are just beginning to understand how important these unseen forces are and to what extent they create and determine our lives.

The ancient philosophers (students not only of the natural but the supernatural) tell us, contrary to popular wisdom, that the really important things in our lives are not the things that make the headlines in the news, but those things that for the most part remain unseen, unperceived, hidden.

In his preaching, Jesus unfolds and expands this insight through his parables. He tells us that the kingdom of God is not about learned scribes and teachers expounding their grand ideas, but about little children. The greatness of God lies hidden in the innocence of their trusting little faces.

Or the mustard seed – tiny. Drop one on the ground and you’ll never find it, and after five minutes you’ll have forgotten all about it. But from this insignificant grain of stuff that fell from your hand grows a new life that changes the landscape.

Or the pinch of yeast – minuscule amid the bulk of the dough: a pinch of nothing that you would reasonably expect to do nothing. And yet, mixed into the lump it makes the difference between a lump of dough and a loaf of bread. It expands and fills and brings the dough to completeness – unseen, silently, so slowly, yet in no time at all.

Jesus talks about these things to help us understand the way his Word works in our lives.

A sermon – a devotional reading – a Bible verse on a bumper sticker – a phrase of Scripture: a tiny pinch of yeast thrown into the doughy mass of your life, which is so full of other things: earning and spending, working and sleeping, coping and enjoying. A little pinch of God’s truth thrown in amongst the feverish busyness of your life; what difference is it going to make? Forgotten after five minutes, left behind as you remember that you have to buy bread on the way home! Left behind as look for your car keys….

And yet …and yet. God’s Word is no ordinary stuff. Rolled into your everyday life it works like yeast: leavening you, expanding you, changing you from within, transforming you from a spiritually dead lump into a living child of God.

Long after you have stopped listening, long after you have closed your Bible, long after you have come home from church, long after you think you have finished with God for the day or for the week, His Word is not finished with you: it’s working in your heart, silently, unseen, unperceived: slowly turning your life to Christ, slowly growing faith inside you.

But what happens if you try to bake bread without yeast? What if that little pinch is never thrown into the mixing bowl of your life? Nothing happens. So don’t stop the master-baker’s work in your life: let him throw his Word into you. Let him leaven your life. Receive his Word and watch and wait for the rise of his kingdom: his love, his power, his truth, his joy, his peace. All from a pinch of God’s yeast in our dough. SP in Melbourne, Aus.


23 Jul 1999
05:20:44

Last Friday night I watched a documentary on ABC called “The supernatural”. It wasn’t about ghosts and goolies, and things that go bump in the night. It was a scientific documentary about the unseen forces that govern so much of our lives and the world in which we live - without us even knowing it: invisible magnetic fields in the earth’s crust, which enable migratory birds to find the same nest on the same beach on the same shore on the same island over thousands of miles, year after year; enormous though unseen electric gravitational forces that govern the tides and the weather. Things which we cannot see, cannot understand, but yet effect us profoundly. And scientists are just beginning to understand how important these unseen forces are and to what extent they create and determine our lives.

The ancient philosophers (students not only of the natural but the supernatural) tell us, contrary to popular wisdom, that the really important things in our lives are not the things that make the headlines in the news, but those things that for the most part remain unseen, unperceived, hidden.

In his preaching, Jesus unfolds and expands this insight through his parables. He tells us that the kingdom of God is not about learned scribes and teachers expounding their grand ideas, but about little children. The greatness of God lies hidden in the innocence of their trusting little faces.

Or the mustard seed – tiny. Drop one on the ground and you’ll never find it, and after five minutes you’ll have forgotten all about it. But from this insignificant grain of stuff that fell from your hand grows a new life that changes the landscape.

Or the pinch of yeast – minuscule amid the bulk of the dough: a pinch of nothing that you would reasonably expect to do nothing. And yet, mixed into the lump it makes the difference between a lump of dough and a loaf of bread. It expands and fills and brings the dough to completeness – unseen, silently, so slowly, yet in no time at all.

Jesus talks about these things to help us understand the way his Word works in our lives.

A sermon – a devotional reading – a Bible verse on a bumper sticker – a phrase of Scripture: a tiny pinch of yeast thrown into the doughy mass of your life, which is so full of other things: earning and spending, working and sleeping, coping and enjoying. A little pinch of God’s truth thrown in amongst the feverish busyness of your life; what difference is it going to make? Forgotten after five minutes, left behind as you remember that you have to buy bread on the way home! Left behind as look for your car keys….

And yet …and yet. God’s Word is no ordinary stuff. Rolled into your everyday life it works like yeast: leavening you, expanding you, changing you from within, transforming you from a spiritually dead lump into a living child of God.

Long after you have stopped listening, long after you have closed your Bible, long after you have come home from church, long after you think you have finished with God for the day or for the week, His Word is not finished with you: it’s working in your heart, silently, unseen, unperceived: slowly turning your life to Christ, slowly growing faith inside you.

But what happens if you try to bake bread without yeast? What if that little pinch is never thrown into the mixing bowl of your life? Nothing happens. So don’t stop the master-baker’s work in your life: let him throw his Word into you. Let him leaven your life. Receive his Word and watch and wait for the rise of his kingdom: his love, his power, his truth, his joy, his peace. All from a pinch of God’s yeast in our dough. SP in Melbourne, Aus.


23 Jul 1999
05:28:10

Sorry - submitted my sermon twice by accident. (New to this type of form submission.) SP in Melbourne, Aus.


23 Jul 1999
05:43:12

SP in Melbourne,

That will preach!

Rick in Va


23 Jul 1999
06:11:51

Dear Greg: My heart and prayers go out to you and to the families you are serving. At times we can be overwhelmed by what God calls us to do - for we very much feel our weakness. It is at these times that must believe that God will use our weakness to illustrate God's strength and Grace. We are not here to personally judge each other (who is saved and who is not, for we do not know another soul as God does) but we are here to lift up the word of God: the loving steadfastness of God's grace and mercy, and the gift of life after life. We are God's creation, Barry was one of God's precious creations and who has now returned home. In this celebration of life service for Barry, give comfort to his family in the assurance that he was one of God's own and now deep in conversation, face-to-face with God having all his questions answered. My friend, we don't have all the answers - we are not called to have all the answers - but we are called to lift up God's loving Grace and Mercy and share one another's burdens and joys. So, walk with them and be Christ to them... God will do the rest, for you are planting seeds that God will make grow. I pray that you have strength and peace this day and days to come. Your sister in Christ. RevWendy


23 Jul 1999
10:48:50

Rick, and others,

When I first wrote about Barry Winchell. We were sure that it was a hate crim emurder based our our knowledge of the harrassment that he had been getting. We have had soldiers come forward to talk to members of our community and they are VERY scared.

The army was going to just say that it was an altercation. They have now reopened and reclassified as a murder. They now have 2 people charged with it.

The violence continues to mount and people say the most horendous things. Like - it was easier to kill them because they were Lesbian. That was said during a confession about another double murder.

Because the pulpits of this country have not taught that all life is of sacred worth - I have to tolerate the violence that has been sprung upon my people. I think not. I will take every pain to call for justice. I will consistently remind you that what you preach does affect the minds of the people that are in your pews. And that they will twist it and destroy others lives.

I have seen too many God hates Fags signs. I have seen too many Kill Fag for Jesus signs. hese are people that do not attend "cults" these are many more times people that have twisted the message of the Gospel to be one of condemnation of those that are different.

And one more thing, while I am on my soap box, I am tired of having to talk people out of suicide because they think God hates them... They do not hear that in my puplit... so where? (Do not bother point to the preacher down the street, we all have communicate a less than loving message without knowing it. Lets look at ourselves.)

Barry Winchell was a seed that was sown. Sown for justice, hope and love. That seed will flourish.

May god continue to bless your ministries of Justice, Hoep and Love Greg in Nashville


23 Jul 1999
11:07:57

Greg in Nashville: Well, my friend, it looks like you have already a powerful message to preach at Barry's funeral! I agree that we all have to claim our part in the disfunctional world. Apathy being the worse - for if we aren't part of the solution then we are part of the problem. Using the Kingdom as a verb rather than a noun as mentioned above... The kingdom of heaven is like... Rev.Wendy


23 Jul 1999
13:19:55

Greg in Nashville,

As hollow as this may seem to so many out there, know that I'm sincerely appreciative of any minister who is reaching out to the unloved in this world, especially when that reaching out is done in the name of Christ.

Anyone who is carrying a "God hates fags" or a "Kill Fags for Jesus" sign is a sick person, an ignorant idiot who I pray will repent before he or she stands before God to be judged. And for them to be called Christian is simply an affront to truth. Noone indwelt by God's Holy Spirit would be carrying on as this. They are children of the devil, no more and no less and will reap what they sow. Call that judgemental if you like, I call it discernment and anyone in their right mind would do the same.

My fear or indignation is with the notion that those of us who want to affirm the homosexual without affirming their defining behavior are just as 'wrong' as the ignorant idiots I've already described.

Tolerance, sadly, when juxtaposed against standard-less ideals, leads to a mindset that states we can call anyone a member of the Body of Christ, regardless of their beliefs. Tolerance has led to murder in a god's name. Belief systems that are allowed to be held that are contrary to the teachings of Christ, as so clearly testified to in the Scriptures, are placing us on that slippery slope we now find ourselves completely greased in.

Greg, if God has placed a call on your heart to minister to the gay community, then go forth my man and answer that call. My hope however is that you would be Christ-like in proclaiming that disciples of Christ are called to go and sin no more.

We cannot decide that calling sin sin contributes to murder. It absolves the individual of responsibility. Love is about holding people accountable and responsible for their actions, teaching them to repent and come to Christ, before they reap the consequences of an un-repentant state of mind, either here in this lifetime or God forbid, into the next.

I've written to much already and I apologize for that. But it becomes far too easy in the minds of the gullible and the intellectually lazy to make drastic leaps of logic and place those who oppose homosexuality in the same camps as the ignorant bufoons who carry assinine signs about 'fags'.

They may be committing crimes in the name of a god but it is certainly not in the name of Christ, His Father or His Holy Spirit, the One triune and only God of this universe.

May God's peace rest upon Barry's soul and may the righteous in Christ rise up to speak out against the kind of ignorance that leads to the killing of anyone, the kind of standard-less belief systems that have brought us to where we are, and the intellectuals and the ignorant who diminish the Word of God and the truths proclaimed therein.

Rick in Va


23 Jul 1999
17:07:39

Rick-

Do they, in your church, tell the divorced to go and sin no more??

Let us worry first about those big old sticks in our own eyes.... (Then, we can decide whether or not we want to stone to death children that curse mother or father, and then maybe worry about homosexuals.... or not!)


24 Jul 1999
00:48:49

This is my first visit to this site. Thank you all for your contributions. I am a student who is new to preaching and it was great to see how more experienced people are thinking. To Greg my thoughts and prayers are with you and the members of your congregation as you mourn for Barry and journey with the people suffering from MS and Aids. JEH from SA


24 Jul 1999
02:27:21

To anonymous writer to Rick in VA regarding homosexuality and divorce:

Rick is simply pointing out we need to call people to stop willfully sinning. Yes, most of us let sinners come to our churches, or there would be totally empty pews and pulpits alike. The problem is when we preach a message that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SIN. Jesus did tell the woman caught in adultery, "Go and leave your life of sin" or "Go and sin no more." Some pastors say sexual sin is not sin. That is really leading people astray. Talk about stumbling blocks! Some pastors will have a terrible price to pay one day, when asked what they did to end the sin in the world. Their only response can be, "What sin?"

To answer your rather ignorant question, "Do they, in your church, tell the divorced to go and sin no more??" I am confident the answer is yes. You see, a pastor's job is to tell EVERYONE to go and sin no more!! Not just the bigots, not just heterosexual sinners, not just homosexual sinners, not just prejudiced people, not just murderers but EVERYONE! Do you really think the fact a person is divorced means they can now go out and wantonly sin? Come on, think about that dumb question. Shouldn't a pastor tell EVERYONE to go and sin no more? I, being a once divorced person, would find it strange if that divorce meant I now have a free ticket to sin whenever I want! I THANK GOD for the pastors who told me to leave my life of sin, so I could get out of the terribke rut into which I had fallen at one time. revup


24 Jul 1999
06:04:13

To the anonymous poster,

Thanks for 'courageously' posting your thoughts.

If I'm to understand you correctly, all preachers, desperate or otherwise, are to proclaim the benefits of divorce. After all, perhaps some are genetically pre-disposed to abandon all commitments made before God, to include the sacrament of marriage.

More preachers ought to be loving and accepting of divorce, after all, aren't the references forbidding divorce in the Holy Scriptures really merely applicable only in Biblical times, nothing more than the rules and regulations of that particular culture, a patriarchal culture attempting to oppress those who desire to have more than one sexual mate?

And wouldn't families that have been touched by divorce be better off if we would simply affirm the benefits of a loving familial breakup, a breakup that may cause some short-term hardship to the children involved, but would expose them to the freedom that comes from breaking commitments?

Wow, it seems clear to me now, thanks to that brave anonymous soul, who is simply articulating the mind-set of many in the pulpits, that real freedom, real discipleship, real Christianity, is to live and let live, dumbing down that archaic concept of sin, dumbing down that ancient mindset of the need for redemption, dumbing down that inapplicable symbol of the cross.

It is so invigorating to be enlightened...

I think I'll stop now, find a good lawyer, and begin that process that will lead to freedom, lead to the light of Christ, lead to holiness and personal fulfillment, divorcing my wife of 18 years as I seek to answer the call of God.

Hey, it's time I traded her in for a 'newer' model anyway...

Rick in Va


24 Jul 1999
11:37:44

Greg,

You have said some incredibly powerful things to us as you have struggled this week. Thank you.

To those of us who have taken his words and twisted tham to suit our own agenda's, shame on us. WE are the ones being told to sin no more! WE are the ones who claim that we can see, and therefore whose blindness and sin remains.

Greg says that he must take the pain to call for justice. I hope I can take the pain that our thoughtless, self-serving, pharisaical comments have caused, so he can do what God is calling him to do in the Spirit of love.

More later, I'm sure.

Rick in Canada


24 Jul 1999
13:21:22

Barry in Ohio I want to read your sermon idea. You said it's over on the sermon page. How do I get to it? VA in NY


24 Jul 1999
15:35:49

From the Socratic questioning/quest of tom/ga, to the aesthetic/poetic spirituality of Nail-bender, to the allegory of the gravitational "field", to the many insights and life stories shared, the sacred communion among pastoral servants of the covenant has emerged and unveiled the dawning presence of God's coming Kingdom even in our midst...even in spite of the unconscious attemp/temtation to stop the "flow of Presence" by "politicizing"! The "love of God", and the Sacred Presence", is inclusive and no one is beyond that reach, and that love, and that presence. His Kingdom, the Ultimate Concern, is within, and whoever we are tonighr, we can be assured we are not beyond the "climate/field setting" of his eternal love. Thanksgiving to all of you for your unique contribution to this unique cyber-space covenant family. PaideiaSCO in ga mountains


24 Jul 1999
16:59:22

a last minute thought on the heels of the last posts. "the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and caught fish of every kind.." The kin-dom includes fish of every kind. Judging and sorting, says the text, is the job of the angels at the end of the age - which implies it's not ours to worry about. Mary in WA


24 Jul 1999
18:09:35

Special thanks to Mary in WA and PaideiaSPO for those last two entries. They have brought everything back into perspective, after a very frustrating series of entries. I believe my sermon is exactly there.

Blessings, Dot


24 Jul 1999
18:45:59

One thing that occurs to me as I read the Gospel is that these parables can be read to indicate that hte Kingdom of Heaven is like many different things. Sometimes life in the Kingdom is relatively simple, like the person who finds treasure, buries it, and sells his possessions and buys the field with the treasure. The person easily knew the right decision and easily knew the cost. Sometimes, though, life in the Kingdom is like the person who pulls in a net full of good fish and bad fish. For this person, being faithful means living with good and bad and attempting to sort it out as best as one can. For some, the kingdom can seem either hidden (as in yeast) or small and insignifcant (as in the mustard seed). In either case, the Kingdom of God is there and active, but it takes eyes of faith to perceive it. In any of these cases, we are called to have faith in the ultimate triumph of God's Kingdom. Bryan in New Jersey


24 Jul 1999
20:01:49

To Jerry in MN and To Jeff P. in Texas-

To Jerry, What a coincidence! My dad and I are both preaching tomorrow using the Troeger quote. He preaches in Virginia and I will preach in Memphis, Tennessee. It will be my last Sunday of my internship at the church before I move back to Richmond to continue seminary.

To Jeff P. in Texas (where I'm from!), I am also using the same sort of thing with my sermon. I am using the image of packing my things up to move, looking at what I want to keep or give away...what is truly valuable to me. I am also going to talk about the intangible things I pack inside of me as I leave. I tie that in with the parables, and then challenge them to also look at what they are packing with them on their journey. It is only my second sermon EVER so I am looking forward to it!

Sarah in TN (& Boyd in VA)