Date: 9/14/2004
Time: 3:29:09 PM
P. U. S. H. - Pray Until Something Happens. Missy In The South
Date: 10/2/2004
Time: 8:00:03 PM
This has proven to be so very true in my life.. so very true. Pray without ceasing. Though He knows our needs before we do, pray without ceasing for that which is truly important. But remember always, that what you are seeking must somehow be of service to Him and not only to yourself.. seek ye first the Kingdom of God... then all this things will be added unto you! So true!
Date: 10/6/2004
Time: 1:18:47 PM
As I approach Children's Sabbath with this text, thinking about praying and waiting for the kingdom to come, I'm reminded that God's not the one who needs a change of heart and mind. We are--that's why we have to pray without ceasing, to bring ourselves in line with what God seeks to accomplish. When you relate this to children's suffering, normally at the hands of adults (whether intentionally or not), it makes for a powerful message. To minister to/with and on behalf of children, we have to commit ourselves to changing (letting God change) whatever is inside of us that allows us to feel comfortable with the status quo. Kids cannot change this for themselves.
I think this quote originated with Bonhoeffer, but my dad always put it this way: Whatever Judgment Day looks like, I believe we will be asked, "What happened to the children on your watch?"
I'm completely on the wrong week so probably won't get to see what any of you write!
Laura in TX
Date: 10/6/2004
Time: 1:27:05 PM
I forgot to mention that I really like the idea I read at textweek.com, by Charles Hoffacker, saying that instead of thinking of the judge as God and ourselves as the widow, that the opposite is actually true. God is the one who finally wears us down! Thy kingdom come, indeed.
Laura in TX
Date: 10/8/2004
Time: 12:12:58 PM
I love Frederick Buechner's comment about this passage... "Be impotunate, Jesus says---not, one assumes, because you have to beat a path to God's door before he will open it, but because until you beat a path maybe there's no way of getting to your door. "Ravish myu hear," john Donne wrote. But God will not usually ravish. He will only court."
God's door to our heart is our beating a path to him!
Date: 10/8/2004
Time: 12:17:23 PM
I like Frederick Buechner's comment about this passage. "Be importunate, Jesus says--- not, one assumes, because you have to beat a path to God's door before he will open it, but because until you beat a path maybe there's no way of getting to your door. "Ravish my heart," John Donne wrote. But God will not usually ravish. He will only court."
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 6:23:39 AM
Dear friend,
The question, "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" has haunted me for years. We want to say "Yes!" so we can feel good and comfortable with ourselves. But then again the Bible rarely makes us feel good about who we are within our own nature. The question has led me in the past to answer with "no he won't find faith". But how can that be with churches on every corner, Christian radio and TV and all the Christian music and videos one could ever possibly hope for?
If he doesn't find faith, what will he find?
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 6:44:37 AM
Laura in TX - hadn't checked Textweek yet, but ...
while I like the idea you posted, about US being the judge and GOD being the widow, I wonder about v. 5
"I will grant her justice ..." hmmmm.... I'm tripping up on the word "justice." How is it that we grant God justice? Or am I pushing it too far?
Sally
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 6:45:53 AM
then again ... v. 2 says "a judge who neither feared God nor had respect for people ..." So, if we're considering God as the judge (the other way around), it's THAT that makes no sense.
Sally
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 6:48:58 AM
I'm leaning towards the "if even this nincompoop will do it, then OF COURSE God will do it."
recall the way Jesus used the allegory of when your child asks for a piece of fish, you won't give him/her a scorpion instead ... so how much more will God grant your petition if even you wicked people know how to be merciful.
For now, at least, I'm going to lean towards the "God is greater than humans" theme.
Sally
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 7:04:05 AM
From the book, Illustrations for Biblical Preaching, Michael Green, Ed. 1989, p275.
There was a tavern that was being built in a town that had previously been dry. In opposition to the tavern, a group of Christians began an all night prayer meeting and asked God to intervene.
Lightning struck the tavern and burned it to the ground.
The owner then brought a lawsuit against the church holding them responsible. The Christians hired a lawyer and denied responsibility.
In response to this unusual scenario, the judge said, “No matter how this case comes out, one thing is clear. The tavern owner believes in prayer and the Christians do not!”
Rev NB
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 7:47:07 AM
Is Jesus REALLY saying that his Father is like an unjust judge who only hears our prayers if we nag him for ever? Is God that indifferent to our cry, to our need? Or is he simply saying that in THIS life, if you want something, and you first fail, keep at it, until the forces of evil can no longer contain the petition.
Is not this what faith truly is - trusting that good will triumph over evil and that we must stay the course, as Christian people, if we truly believe that how we are living is according to our Lord's will?
tom in ga
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 8:06:10 AM
In an adult class this past Sunday we were wrestling with the age old question "Why do bad things happen to good people" and other variations thereof. We got hung up on the statement people often make in the face of a loved ones death-"Why did God do this?" Or "why did God allow this to happen". We all agreed that we did not believe that God causes suffering and we talked about free will and how it all fits together. Then one person asked- "so why do we pray?". Now I am faced with this text on imploring God. What do we do with this one? Jill in Jersey, usually a Saturday night lurker on DPS
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 8:09:42 AM
Interesting idea about God being the widow - God works on us until we finally "give in to God" or "let go and let God"? If God is the judge, I always find this little "thorn" - does God simply finally give in to us so we will shut up? revjaw
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 8:34:25 AM
laura in tx, sally, and others:
are WE able to answer prayer?
wow, this is really blowing my mind! my inital thought is, yes, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
can we answer God's persistant prayer for justice? yes, i believe we can; again with the help of the HS.
this is an interesting take on this parable. i don't know if this is what it's trying to say, but i do think it's preachable.
the traditional understanding of this parable is that God is the judge, but even bad judges can do justice... so if an unjust judge can grant justice... how much more can God grant justice...
but, it's jesus' last comment: "And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" that makes me wonder if this "stretch" couldn't in fact be truer than the traditional understanding.
what are signs of our faith? they go beyond mike sunshine's examples of churches and christian broadcast outlets. true signs of faith are good works.
one of my favorite quotes is: "faith is not belief in spite of the evidence, but a life lived in scorn of the consequences."
i need to keep thinking about this some more...
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 9:00:48 AM
What do you do with a congregation whose prayers have been answered (younger people and children present in growing numbers) who now want to say, "Pastor and elders you don't care about us!" KC
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 9:13:15 AM
I must confess, it is easier for me to preach to the people of God rather than praying for the people of God.
Oh, let's not be pious about it and drop the phrase "people of God" from the next sentence. It's hard for me to pray. Oh yes, I do pray, bits and pieces lifted up to God in the shower, on the freeway, when I am alone and talking to God, when I think of someone, and when I need helps. So perhaps I "pray always" as verse 1 said, but the problem I have is "losing heart".
Jesus started the parable with describing the judge as "neither feared God nor had respect for people", an important fact that he underlined it again in verse 4.
If you have ever lived under the communist regime like I do, then you would understand what the situation Jesus was talking about. We've learned to never appeal to the official authority for anything, they don't care! The head-honchos are out for themselves, if you want to move them, you will need to "grease the wheel" with gifts, bribe, favor, or any other manipulations. What chance would a poor widow had to appeal for justice? None!
Yet, she "kept coming to him". Was she stupid or just plain naive? Don't she know that her appeals would fall on deaf ears?
Or perhaps she was just being faithful (a person full of faith). Somehow she might have believe that there is justice, that "God has eyes" (a Vietnamese proverb), and that she will get her justice. [Interesting take here: What if the "pray always" was about her own personal prayers before coming to the judge, and the "not lose heart" referred to her action of appeal to the judge?]
At the end, she got what she asked for. She got it because she was persistent (v.3 "kept coming", v.4 "for a while he refused", v.5 "keeps bothering", "wear me out", "continually coming", v.7 "cry day and night")
But will we get answers just because we are persistent? (May be I should start asking for the lottery.) Nope. The text underscored the subtle theme of "justice" (Gk. lit. "bring out the rightness"), so it matters a lot on knowing God's righteousness in order pray accordingly. [Another interesting take: May be that's why v.7 talks about God's "chosen ones" (Gk. electos)...]
There are many God's chosen ones. I am one of them. But not all of them would "cry to him day and night" to right all the wrong things we see, just like me. We gave up. We thought why it's matter to fight the system. They are not going to change. We are small in numbers, just a remnant left. We are tired. We just want to go home in heaven where the ultimate justice can be found. We are frustrated; let's do something instead of sitting there praying. We learned how to live with unright things; oh well, someone have to make the best of their circumstances anyway.
That's why Jesus said, "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
Lord, change my attitude in prayer and help me to be more persistent. Help me to be one of those chosen one who cry day and night before you when I see so much un-right things around me. Help me to be willing to believe that yes, I can change the unchangeable; not because of I can move anything on earth, but because I can move Your hands in heaven.
Coho, Midway City. (Not preaching this week, so I may be back here for more...)
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 10:10:11 AM
You are a wonderful community, enriching all who read your comments. Thank you!
I'm not a preacher, but this week is my turn to prepare readings for "Kairos" a small faith community in Rochester, NY. These pages are a great help.
For me, prayer is a continuing state that not only includes meditation about all that crosses my mind's path but also includes whatever I am doing. It is an active state.
I feel close to God when my grandson (4) says "Grandpa let's go out and dig."
Peace, Ray G. from the North Coast
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 12:06:18 PM
I'm with Mike in Sunishie ... Much of how I read this passage comes from the last "will I find faith?" I want to yell yes also. But maybe that's one of the points, it's a challenge to the disciples and humanity to keep faith through prayer. Sociologists quantify "religiosity" by how often you participate in a religous activity, maybe this is Jesus trying to help us put an action to an abstract, faith, by coupling the last statement with prayer and the need for prayer. But I'm no pastor I am just trying to fill the pulpit and allow GOd to use me in this capacity this week. Matthew in Texas
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 1:01:00 PM
Jill in jersey, God always answers prayer. When we pray for someone to be healed and they die, I believe God has healed by giving them a brand new body, one with out pain, without tears. Prayer changes us, not God. The more we pray, the more weeeeeeee are changed, to be like Him. LS
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 1:14:01 PM
jill in jersey,
(are you an ltsp grad? just wondered if you were who i think you ight be.)
we pray because God commands it of us. (2nd commandment...if we aren't supposed to take the name of the Lord in vain then we are supposed to use God's name in the right way, ie: prayer, praise, thanksgiving)
so, we don't pray to get stuff, but in order to be in relationship with God. hum, that makes the idea that God is the widow and we are the judge even more credible. God wants us to listen to him and keeps at us until we figure that out.
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 2:34:06 PM
KC,
I'd like to give my two cents, but I'm not sure what you're asking. Who is saying, "You don't care about us"?
Michelle
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 3:24:03 PM
Lots to ponder this week. I heard a tv preacher (not the flashy kind) say God had 3 answers to prayer: Yes, wait, and I have something even better in mind. lkinhc
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 6:17:30 PM
Worship must be our first act of justice. Justice must saturate the praxis of worship before we can ever hope to change the world. If, in our ritual lives, we revere our religious conditioning, our nostalgic interests, our temporal attachments, or our congregational sensitivity at the expense of the unchurched, then we become like the dishonest judge who constantly judges in favor of ‘self’. Paul
Date: 10/11/2004
Time: 8:08:23 PM
KC;
During my first full-time call, the church I was at grew-it almost doubled in size. In essence, they got rid of me.
There is an old Scottish proverb "Be careful what you pray for, because God may give it to you." The people who have been in the congregation for a long time are worried about losing their place- and if this growth has made the church grow from a church that needed one kind of leadership (which the "old heads" remember) to one that needs another kind of leadership, there is even more stress.
My advice is simple and is probably too simplistic. Pray for them. You may be disappointed in their response, thinking about all the times that the people said, "Pastor, we need to grow' or "Pastor, we need some new people" You, or someone else who is a respected church leader, can minister to them by showing them all the things they have done to help the church grow, and help them work through their fear of change. They need to be gently reminded that there is no growth without change.
I don't know if this is possible, but the more you can get old and new working together, the better it will be
And please remember that this is only a season in the life of your church- that it will not last forever.
Grace and Peace;
Revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 6:14:46 AM
christine at the shore
I agree - we are often called to be the answer to our own prayers. Jesus prayed His followers would be united and He is the means of that unity.
We pray for someone who is poor and end up giving them what they need.
I am convinced that last statement of Jesus, "... when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" is the lynch-pin of this passage and I mean to find out what it means - to find out what He meant by it.
JG in WI
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 6:25:25 AM
Rev NB -
That's one of the best illustrations I've ever heard!!!! I don't usually go for them unless I know some personal connection to them, but that one's goooooood.
Sally in GA
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 6:42:24 AM
KC -
another thing you can do is help the 99 other sheep while the pastor is trying to make sure the 1 is well-incorporated into the fold. I can understand how your pastor is distracted with the newbies; s/he doesn't want their interest, attendance, and membership to be a flash in the pan. S/He'll have to spend time helping them mature enough to be stable.
Sally in GA
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 6:56:58 AM
last one ...
Coho - thank you for that powerful post. I didn't know you were from another country. I just figured "Midway City" was somewhere in, like, Kansas or something! Still, your needing to actually LIVE this parable gives it a depth I hadn't experienced before.
.........
Verse 7: "will God delay long in helping his chosen ones?" - I disagree with those in the "God answers prayer" category for this pericope because this promise of Jesus is often not true in real life, at least as we interpret it. For example: I've known people who've lost their faith because their saintly, devout loved one suffered a long, arduous death - or got a disease while being in a "low risk" category (a nonsmoker dying of lung cancer, eg).
It doesn't hold water as tightly as we wish it would.
These last few weeks have really tested and tried my concept of who God is, how God is, and how I/we respond to God. This is yet another one.
When you get right down into the dirty work, you find that what the Bible is is inconsistent with what we believe about God and no amount of creativity will make it consistent. So, my take for the last couple weeks is to communicate what is surprising about the Gospel and another way to look at the pericope than what we've always quickly presumed.
Who says the widow was asking for anything just in the first place? Just because she was a widow, does that automatically make her right? I know plenty of widows who are mean and hateful.
This may be a case of one unjust person out-lasting, out-witting, out-playing another unjust person.
All I'm saying is, scratch the surface a bit ...
and yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? --- the words "and yet" are giving me a problem: they don't seem to fit grammatically, or logically, with the rest of the sentence.
Greek scholars???? any input????
Sally in GA
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:36:31 AM
Dear friends,
I found the study of this text to be challenging. Of the few commentaries I have, most had basically the same things to say about it. Also it does not appear that any group or individual has taken this passage as a central text for any doctrine or practice we might consider unique or strange. So I/we are left to take a straight forward passage and make interesting and applicable to life.
I am sticking with an expositional form. For whatever reason, my congregations are eating them up. For me they aren't nearly as challenging or satisfying but then again it might not be about me. I do sometimes feel I come across as being a verbal commentary.
I know that there are a number of entries this week about we being the unjust judge or God is the widow or other such view. I outright rejected this as the text itself does not support that reading.
With much fear and trepidation of subjecting a rough draft sermon several days before the event I offer it to you for your review. If in the end I don't like it, I have time to change it. You can find the sermon at:
http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20041017.htm
Please respond to bagpiper@rfci.net.
Grace and peace, Mike
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:37:06 AM
It seems these last few weeks have all been talking about what is right to do. The apostles ask for increased faith, but Jesus says what will you do with increased, or additional faith, besides a lot of things that will take you away from the work you are already doing with the faith you have, which is enough. And then the lepers who go off to show them selves to the priest and then the one gives thanks, and this week the widow is following the proper channels to get things done. Is it that we must do what is right?
This weeks lesson makes me think of the invention of the post it note. A wonderful story of something that did not turn out the way it was suppose to. The inventor of the glue used in the notes was trying to make a super sticky glue, but came up with a glue that did not spread, and thus was not super sticky, but removable. He did not want to give up on finding a use for it though. to make a long story short, another inventor needed sticky bookmarks for his hymnal and thought of the glue from the first inventor. the rest as they say is history. This all took about a 6-8 year time frame, and was still always met with opposition. Think of how different your life would be with out post it notes. Do not lose heart. Maybe the faith we have is God continually coming to us and telling us he loves us, and wants us to be in relationship with him.
And why shoudl we pray, not only because the 2nd commandment tells us to not use the name of God in vain, and thus should use it properly, but because Jesus prayed. More in the gospel of Luke than in any other Gospel. If it is good enough for Jesus, should it not be good enough for me?
asacredrebel - Hollidaysburg, PA
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:47:25 AM
Sally in GA the word used for and yet is actually but... Here is a listing out of my Greek dictionary (1) an adverb used as a conjunction; (a) as an adversative equivalent to but (LU 23.28); (b) predominately used to restrict a previous statement nevertheless, however, in spite of that (LU 22.42); (c) used to break off a discussion and point out parenthetically what was important in it in any case, however, only one thing (PH 3.16; RV 2.25); (d) used to add in an exception except that (AC 20.23); (2) as an improper preposition with the genitive except, besides (MK 12.32)
So from reading this it is suppose to stand out maybe to break off from God will answer prays, or listen to the requests, AND YET when Jesus comes back, will he find The Faith on earth?
Don't know if that helps...
asacredrebel
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 8:10:00 AM
Christopher Reed died over the weekend...
many people looked to him for HOPE when it comes to Spinal Cord injury research...
As a spokesperson, this "man of steel" was relentless in what he knew was the right thing... he helped the 'cause more than anyone, not just for himself but for children and others who are marginalized by their disability. He made great strides, if not physically, by his convictions... much like the widow in the Gospel for this week. Unfortunately he didn't get to hear that he had worn down the judge by his persistance. Then again, perhaps he does hear...
Blessed be his memory,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 9:06:24 AM
Dear Pulpit in ND,
Christipher Reeves may not be the best contemporary example or a poor widow with only a righteous claim. His plight was sympathetic to be sure but his advocacy of embrionic stem cell research was in the end selfish. But to gain from that science life has to be created and then be destroyed in order to offer even the potential to help someone else. Same goes for Michael J. Fox in his struggle with Parkinson's Disease. Both figures are also aligned with political campaigns. Surely there are better examples to use.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 9:17:23 AM
The last part of verse 8 has also haunted me over the years. Certainly, I have thought, when the "son of man" returns, the world will be in a horrendous shape. Perhaps, I speculated, it will be a veritable Sodom and Gomorrah, filled with unbridled lust and unhospitable selfishness. Perhaps this will be true, but upon my recent reading of the text, I have envisioned something even more frightening to me. I realized that Christ may return to a world when good and godly people will be found on Sunday mornings singing half-heartedly about themes that no longer excite their lives, that ministers will be preaching texts that have long since lost their grip on their own lives, that we will be found merely "going through the motions" of a faith that is mainly an artifact of our once vibrant lives, rather than a living relationship that fuels our minds and hearts. The question still haunts me. When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith -- in me?
Bern in KY
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 11:18:27 AM
Bern in KY:
Now you quit preaching and gone to meddlin. Blessings and keep up the good work
Pr. Bill on the frontier
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 11:18:45 AM
Bern in KY:
Now you quit preaching and gone to meddlin. Blessings and keep up the good work
Pr. Bill on the frontier
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 11:27:56 AM
Sally in GA, thanks. Here's some more ;-)
God knows we need a hand, even to pray. In Romans 8:26-5-27 we read; “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words.
And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”
We pray because there is action to prayer. The great Anglican ethicist, Right Reverend Kenneth Kirk, Bishop of Oxford, said in the mid 20th Century:
“Prayer is our service of humility and patronage. Thank you Lord for giving me the opportunity to serve you”.
The renowned Christian Optimist, William Arthur Ward, summed up prayer nicely when he said:
“The pulse of prayer is praise. The heart of prayer is gratitude. The voice of prayer is obedience. The arm of prayer is service.”
And, as the 17th century Anglican Priest and spiritual writer once said: “To pray is to open oneself up to the possibility of sainthood, to the possibility of becoming set on fire by the Spirit.”
Rev NB
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 11:31:52 AM
Hi DPS Folk, This is my first time posting to the site, but have enjoyed reading your comments over the past few weeks and thought I would add my own to this week's thread.
I think that two fundamental questions can serve as "hermeneutical keys" in considering this text:
1) What does this parable say about the kingdom of God? The Pharisees have just asked Jesus this question (17:20 ff). Indeed, the entire gospel of Luke is filled with language about the kingdom--what it will look like, how it will come, when it will come, who embodies it, etc. My exegesis of this text places the widow as the exemplar of what the kingdom will look like. The widow's sociopolitical situation was as bad as it gets (see the Law and the Prophets for some insight into the widow's vulnerability...Exodus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Jeremiah). And yet, no matter how much time passes or how dire it gets the kingdom comes like this widow--it keeps coming, battering down anything in its way, pouring in with hope and justice and renewed life for the most vulnerable among us.
And question 2) What does the faith the Jesus seeks from his people look like? Again, I think the widow points the way for us. Time and again in Luke, people are "made well" because of their faith. These people who are "made well" are always on the edges of society--a hemorraging woman, a paralytic, a disheveled woman washing Jesus' feet, a little girl, a leper. And this widow. They are on the edges of everything acceptable and "good" in their society, yet THEY are the ones whose faith is held up by Jesus as that which brings healing and wellness.
The widow, as do most of these other Lukan characters, will not be bound by social norms and niceties and instead demands that her plight be recognized. Her bold persistence points to a new reality--a reality inaugurated by God's reign where victims claim their rights and seek justice. Her shocking boldness, her unsettling action...THIS is continual prayer. THIS is faith. THIS is the appropriate response to the coming kingdom.
Yikes. A little long and rambling, but those are my thoughts, for what they're worth. :) Peace, Heidi
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 12:19:56 PM
This fits better with the epistle reading, but since you've brought up stem cell research...
interesting how many folks in my church are staunch Republicans, from the Christian right, standing strongly for the war, are pro-life, etc ... and still use the stem cells when it affects their lives personally. I can count 3.
no name
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 12:35:44 PM
paul, your comment on worship made me stop and really think. would you mind if i used it at some point in a worship workshop that i am working on? if you wouldn't mind couldyou email me with your full name so that i can actaully quote you?
cmnessel@juno.com
i was struck by christopher reeves death too. our contemporary icons are dying... john ritter, now christopher reeve.
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 1:07:44 PM
NB and Sally:
That's such a great illustration on prayer. My original reading of it is that it came from a New England town and that the judge's decision was in favor of the tavern owner for exactly those reasons, that obviously the tavern owner believed the power of the prayer of the church moreso than the church itself did. I don't think this is an urban myth, but couldn't swear to it.
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 1:26:08 PM
Dear No Name,
Let me point to the preciseness of my words. I did not refer to stem cell research in general. I refered to embrionic stem cell research. Companies in America have unrestricted freedom when it comes to adult stem cell research. The only limitation put forward by the present federal administration on embrionic stem cell research is federal funding. So companies and universities may still sink any amount of private funding they want into that avenue. Christopher Reeves was and Michael J. Fox is for unlimited federal funding for embrionic stem cell research. To create new lines requires life be started and stopped for the benifit of another. Slavery in any form is evil. This is the worst of all but the easiest to overlook since they will never be able to voice their objections.
My blessings are on adult stem cell research to the point that I am registered to donate stem cells and bone marrow. I have literally but my butt in the sling when I donated bone marrow August 2003. So this is not theoretical.
So did the three you mention receive the blessings garnished from adult stem cell research or embrionic stem cell research? Yes there is a difference how we advance medically. And the very tone of your comments lays bare your own political bias. It is my hope that I can preach a sermon that is useful for Democrat, Republican and Independent.
As for the gospel text I simply made the point that there could be better examples. Christopher Reeves was a healthy wealthy actor and athlete before his accident. Michael J. Fox was a very successful actor. Both had access to the legal apperatus and health care of their day. I am as confused about using these examples as I was at the comparison of Mother Theresa and Princess Diane. One had everything in this world. The other had the clothes on her back. But the truly great one got very little press.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 1:46:18 PM
Um... his name is Christoper Reeve ... he is sometimes confused with George Reeves who also played Superman. I also am saddened at his passing. He certainly contributed far more in his "unchosen" career than in his chosen one. There's certainly a sermon there - another time.
JG in WI
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 3:19:09 PM
I may be way off base here, but I see so much of Revelation in this text. I see it as either 1) a prediction of trials and oppressions to come to the disciples and later, the Church, or else 2) as written after the fact of the persecutions of the Christians by Rome. Anyway, I see it as Jesus telling them that when things get rough (and they will), pray with the faith that God will make all things right in the end. A lesser god wouldn't care much that you were suffering, and would only help you out in order to benefit himself, but YOUR God does care, and takes note of what is happening to you and what you pray about. So keep praying, keep believing in the Lordship of Jesus no matter how difficult life becomes, because your God is listening and will vindicate you. And when Jesus returns, hopefully he will find that people were living in faith even through the severe trials they were put through, including martyrdom.
Does this make an ounce of sense to anybody else? It's pretty clear to me, but I've been sick for a few weeks now and thinking may be clouded.
KHC
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 3:54:44 PM
I see this passage far more about the relationship between justice and faith than about prayer. People who think because they pray constantly they have faith, might be surprised to find that it is the ones who balance prayer for justice with action for justice who are ultimately saved. I'm using this as a stewardship sermon. We in the USA have been blessed with wealth, power, resources, and freedom. How are we being just stewards of these gifts? When we spend half our budget on maintaining a 'way too big' church building and grudgingly give a pitance to build churches, schools and hospitals in Africa, no matter how constantly we pray for justice, our hearts and our faith are in the wrong place. Martie in NY
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 5:01:18 PM
Amen to the thoughts of Mike in Sunshine. I too am dismayed at those our contemporary culture lifts up as "icons." I was quite baffled by the incongruous exposure the media gave Mother Teresa, versus the magnanimous coverage of Princess Di's death.
Thanks for your articulate clarification on the current day issues.
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 5:02:46 PM
Amen to the thoughts of Mike in Sunshine. I too am dismayed at those our contemporary culture lifts up as "icons." I was quite baffled by the incongruous exposure the media gave Mother Teresa, versus the magnanimous coverage of Princess Di's death.
Thanks for your articulate clarification on the current day issues.
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 5:14:58 PM
I am a first time preacher and was feeling quite overwhelmed with this passage. I've decided to center my sermon around the idea of justice rather than just talking about prayer. I think it's interesting that of all things she's asking for, she's asking for justice. I think that the other part of this though is what we do in addition to prayer. Is prayer enough? In James 2:14, he says that "faith without works is dead." It's important to pray. It's important to be persistent because that persistence is an act of faith, but it's also important to put that faith into action.
Amanda, nervous first time preacher
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 5:24:13 PM
I too, am a first-time contributor. This is only my second week consulting this web-site and I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on the lectionary. Thanks everyone!
I think Heidi is truly onto the point of the text. In fact, I believe this might be one of the "case in point" examples of a poor chapter division. It seems to me that, as Heidi pointed out, the talk is all about the Kingdom and the return of the Son of Man. Verse 8 speaks to this - and yet, in order to have inclusio, we must back the pericope up to 17:20 (which is not included in any of the lectionary readings).
We are not to lose heart despite all the evil that surrounds us, and the return of the Son seems to be delayed. No matter how vulnerable we may feel at times (the widow was the most vulnerable in her society)we are to persevere in our quest for justice.
Jesus turns the question in 17:20 of WHEN is the Kingdom coming into a question of HOW will the people of God respond - will we be faithful?
Janet in PA
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:24:04 PM
Hi Jill! Just wanted to say...so glad I'm not the only one who writes my sermons on Saturday night! :)
And everyone, had a very wonderful epiphany about prayer come to me through the mouth of an extremely unlikely person in my internship church (isn't that always the way these things happen? :) ). She said, and I agree, that the point of prayer is the act of letting go of control of a situation. It is the act of truly giving a situation to God. The problem is, because we come to God with our own agenda, we look at prayer as something we must "do" in order that our envisioned outcome is realized...so, really, when we pray this way we have not given up control at all. We are still acting as though we are in control: if I just pray hard enough, in the right way, then it will work out right. God is not the unjust judge. But even so, sometimes we do have to pray without ceasing...not because God likes to toy with us, but because sometimes it takes a few seemingly unanswered prayers for us to finally let go of a situation and give it to God. It was really an epiphany for me, but I'm not sure it is translating well here. Hope it makes sense. :)
Dawn in the Mountains
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:32:31 PM
Hmmmm...concerned that my last post may have crossed that ugly line over to "we don't have to do anything in this life, just pray and God will do it all." That, of course, is BS. The greatest prayers are prayed with hands and feet.
Dawn in the Mountains.
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:37:58 PM
Mike in Sunshine, Though I hesitate to characterize as selfish someone I never met, I too bristle when people call Christopher Reeve "heroic" simply because he has pursued a cure for his own disease. I find far more heroic people like his wife, for example, who has stood unsung beside him through it all. And people who rise above their illness to do something utterly unselfish for their fellow human beings...something that holds absolutely no benefit for themselves whatsoever.
Dawn in the Mountains
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:56:04 PM
This passage appears in the last of the synoptics. By that time, the church was struggling with the delay of the parousia and the persecution of the church. Will the Son of Man help? Come, Lord Jesus! And quickly he will come. We are enjoined to continue to keep faith alive. The worst irony would be that Jesus would come and we who had asked for his help had given up on him before he arrived.
Pat in NJ
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 7:59:37 PM
One more...
One of the greatest lessons I ever got about prayer came from Mark ch. 9, where the father brings his demon-possessed son to Jesus. I realize it is unwise to allow one gospel to inform another, but what I learned then does inform my reading of this passage. In it, the father is in anguish, has already brought his son to the disciples, who have failed to cure him. He says to Jesus, "If you can, please help us." Jesus says, "If? There is no if. Of course I can. Of course I want to. All things are possible for the one who believes." The father cries out, "I do believe! Help my unbelief." Later, in explaining it all to the disciples, Jesus tells them "this kind can only come out by prayer."
What I learned is this: the only person who prayed in that passage was the father, and all he prayed was "I believe! Help my unbelief." With his imperfect faith, Jesus was able to do the healing he longed to do: of the boy's body, and of the father's heart. There is no "if." God is always waiting, longing to heal. There are no requirements for believing fully enough, praying often enough or in exactly the right way. But by approaching God in prayer with our whole self, raw and honest, confused and yearning, we open the door to that healing. Like the lepers who cried out "Mercy!" rather than "Unclean!" and found healing for their bodies...and like the one who abandoned all pretense, all propriety, and fell down on his face in thanksgiving, thereby finding healing for his heart. When we come to him, God doesn't wait: "he will quickly grant justice."
Dawn in the Mountains
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 8:08:31 PM
On the topic of Christopher Reeve and his advocacy. I serve on a local hospital board and had the opportunity to hear and meet Mr. Reeve. He recognized that paraplegics have very few people to advocate for them. When he spoke at a gathering here in NJ to affect local statewide legislation for stem cell research, he spoke about using unfertilized material. I don't know if that makes a difference ethically for those who are oppositional to the research. I was most touched about the fact that he lauded those in the audience, many paraplegics and quadriplegics who live without the wealth and help that he and Dana have had. His fame has brought him lots of volunteer assistance and he recognized that many paralyzed people stay positive and find ways to contribute to the world around them with much less help and encouragement. He knew that if he did not use his assets to benefit those others who were suffering, he would be truly selfish. To be silent because he did not feel well, because he had already been up in the chair sitting on his bedsores all day, because he did not look as well as he had when he was healthy and a handsome star, that was an option he rejected. He suffered from serious depression at the first and moved on to try to be positive for himself and his family, and for others in the same situation. The effect he had on teen paraplegics in the room that night who had been injured in sports accidents was immeasurable.
Pat in NJ
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 8:09:36 PM
On the topic of Christopher Reeve and his advocacy. I serve on a local hospital board and had the opportunity to hear and meet Mr. Reeve. He recognized that paraplegics have very few people to advocate for them. When he spoke at a gathering here in NJ to affect local statewide legislation for stem cell research, he spoke about using unfertilized material. I don't know if that makes a difference ethically for those who are oppositional to the research. I was most touched about the fact that he lauded those in the audience, many paraplegics and quadriplegics who live without the wealth and help that he and Dana have had. His fame has brought him lots of volunteer assistance and he recognized that many paralyzed people stay positive and find ways to contribute to the world around them with much less help and encouragement. He knew that if he did not use his assets to benefit those others who were suffering, he would be truly selfish. To be silent because he did not feel well, because he had already been up in the chair sitting on his bedsores all day, because he did not look as well as he had when he was healthy and a handsome star, that was an option he rejected. He suffered from serious depression at the first and moved on to try to be positive for himself and his family, and for others in the same situation. The effect he had on teen paraplegics in the room that night who had been injured in sports accidents was immeasurable.
Pat in NJ
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 8:09:36 PM
On the topic of Christopher Reeve and his advocacy. I serve on a local hospital board and had the opportunity to hear and meet Mr. Reeve. He recognized that paraplegics have very few people to advocate for them. When he spoke at a gathering here in NJ to affect local statewide legislation for stem cell research, he spoke about using unfertilized material. I don't know if that makes a difference ethically for those who are oppositional to the research. I was most touched about the fact that he lauded those in the audience, many paraplegics and quadriplegics who live without the wealth and help that he and Dana have had. His fame has brought him lots of volunteer assistance and he recognized that many paralyzed people stay positive and find ways to contribute to the world around them with much less help and encouragement. He knew that if he did not use his assets to benefit those others who were suffering, he would be truly selfish. To be silent because he did not feel well, because he had already been up in the chair sitting on his bedsores all day, because he did not look as well as he had when he was healthy and a handsome star, that was an option he rejected. He suffered from serious depression at the first and moved on to try to be positive for himself and his family, and for others in the same situation. The effect he had on teen paraplegics in the room that night who had been injured in sports accidents was immeasurable.
Pat in NJ
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 8:12:06 PM
Sorry about the multiple posts. :( Now I know how you all did that! I'll try to avoid it in the future. Pat
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 8:53:19 PM
amanda,
don't forget to pray as you prepare your sermon. (good advise for us all...including myself).
one more piece of advice: the first time i preached was in college and my text was on the prodigal son. it was a powerful story for me, because i had spent some time as a prodigal myself. i was really into my sermon when i went to flip the page of my manuscript and realized i had mixed up my pages. so, always check the pages of your manuscript before getting into the pulpit.
may God bless you with the Holy Spirit to PREACH THE WORD. you seem to be on the right track. let us know how it goes.
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 10/12/2004
Time: 9:16:15 PM
Sally,
Sorry for my ESL; I grew up in Vietnam, but now I live in the States. Midway City is 15 minutes away from Disneyland in southern California.
As for your problem with V. 7, it might help to keep in mind the justice theme of the passage. It 's not just any prayer.
Coho.
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 6:37:13 AM
My thoughts:
Regarding this group. After just a few months I have to regard you all as a sort of "electronic clergy support group" and I enjoy the fact that we all appear to come from differing denominations making this uniquely ecumenical. My hat is tipped to you all, especially the regulars and you know who you are. As for me, I am a cradle Anglican, so you will often see that slant from me.
Regarding my posts. I do a lot of research into quotes or stories as I quite like them and I use them a lot in my sermons, so you can expect to see those from me, feel free, of course, to use them.
As for C Reeve, let us not forget that Ken Camminiti died the same day at 41, and his use of steroids in Baseball is well documented... another sermon for another time.
Rev NB
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:16:53 AM
KHC - well if your thinking is clouded, mine is, too. I see much Revelation in this pericope.
Consider the OT, Ps and Epistle... In the Jeremiah there is the promise that God will write the Law on the peoples' hearts ... a promise of the future - that is simultaneously realized and not-yet realized. God's still waiting for that Law to be written on our hearts, as far as I can tell.
Then, in the Ps, the law is the Psalmist's meditation all day long. ... the commandment makes (me) wiser than my enemies because it is with me always .... This is in the present tense. And still, it doesn't take a genius to see that despite our best intentions, we DON'T always meditate on God's word, but rather listen to teachers.
which brings me to the epistle ... we ALL choose our teachers according to what we feel we need to hear. It's not completely diabolical, for Jesus meets us at the point of our need.
Still, the conversation about stem cell research has brought to mind just how many teachers we accumulate for ourselves. I see pro's and con's and am a firm fence-sitter: as soon as I start thinking one way or another, I always think "on the other hand!"
When the Son of Man comes (in the eschaton), will he find faith on earth?
Probably. Human beings are created for faith. But what kind of faith will he find?
Sally in GA
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:19:40 AM
Coho, Midway City -
Interesting. No reason to apologize for the ESL - it's just that the term "Midway" conjures up an image of "in the middle of" - and since most of us are from the USA, I think in the middle of the USA.
Sally
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:29:15 AM
Pat in NJ -
I've never seen him in person, but I agree about Christopher Reeve. Whether it's good or bad, the reality is that in the USA, celebrities' voices are heard. He used his, not to bash the Bush administration at the Acadamy awards for the war in Iraq, as if all of a sudden, Bush would go, "Oh, gee, I see your point. OK! Pull all the troops!" Rather, he gives a voice to many people who are too busy taking physical therapy to holler at politicians.
There have been people in the churches I serve who can't come because the pews hurt their arthritis or because they're embarrassed because they have to go to the bathroom frequently (for them, it's embarrassing to have to get up and go in themiddle of the service) ... I might be tempted to lay out, too.
This pericope is about granting justice ... will he find faith on earth? Or will he find a bunch of people whose day in the sun has passed?
If we all could take the inspiration from Reeve to employ our "new" situations for new days in the sun, when the Son of Man comes, he will find faith on earth. (and that holds true, whatever we believe about the details of adult stem cells or embryonic stem cells or pre-fertilized cells or a bunch of other stuff I don't understand).
Sally
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:30:16 AM
Jesus tells a story reminding his listeners they are to be persistent in prayer, unceasing in their appeals. If an unethical judge will ultimately grant the plea of a persisting widow, how much more will our loving God hear those who call upon him!
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:30:36 AM
Jacob worked hard, constantly finagling for some advantage and often making enemies. Eventually came the inevitable confrontation with the man he'd cheated worst, his brother Esau. First, however, Jacob got into one more fight. A mysterious night stranger wrestled him to a draw. At daybreak, when the opponent sought release, Jacob demanded a blessing. He received one, along with a new name and dislocated hip. Jacob became Israel, "One who fights with God." Next morning, the dreaded meeting proved a joyous reunion. Esau didn't see in Jacob the enemy; rather, he saw the face of God (Gen 33.10). Jacob, too, viewed things differently. His real struggles weren't with rivals, but with God.
Ever since, Israel's poets and prophets have got in God's face and helped others do likewise. (If only Cain had learned this before he wrung his brother's neck, when the real culprit seemed untouchable!)
Though she's only a character in a parable, the widow who wears down the crooked judge in Jesus' story grasps this truth. She won't let the judge go until he blesses her. Eventually she wins him over.
When we ponder this parable long enough, we see the face of God in the wrestling widow, not the fickle judge. All through our nights of anxiety, rage, and confusion, God grapples faithfully with us. Our best punches land on God, not on each other. God, however, can bear the lethal load of vengeance we'd love to dump on some family member or rival, and still come back for more.
Jesus knew the widow's plight better than anyone. He prayed those vindication psalms through his own night of torture. Many, including friends, deserved a black eye or worse for what happened. Instead of retaliating, Jesus prayed Psalm 31, which says, "Into your hands I commit my spirit." It also says, "Let the wicked be put to shame; let them go dumbfounded to Sheol" (v. 17).
God heard every word. But God let us out of Sheol anyway.
Frederick Niedner
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:30:58 AM
The gospel of Luke pays special regard to those who suffer injustice and have little or no power in the community. Following the questions of the Pharisees concerning the timing of the coming of the kingdom of God, Jesus tells this story. However, it is not a story about signs and forecasts but about the final hope of one of the "little ones" (Lk 12.32).
Disputes involving widows and orphans were not uncommon in Israel (Ps 82:3-4; Jer 5:28-29). The law did not allow widows to inherit. On the death of a husband, his property passed to his sons or brothers. If those relatives did not act with justice and honour toward their father or brother's widow, a judge was called in as the widow's final and only hope.
For the poor and common people among Jesus' hearers, a story about a widow with no power or influence and a judge with no compassion or sense of justice would seem to be a foregone conclusion: justice would once more be denied. However, even though the judge has no interest in this case and even though the widow has no way to influence the judge, her persistence wins the day. The beautiful, upside-down surprise of this story is that justice triumphs! No wonder the author of Luke interprets Jesus' story as being about not losing heart. Whatever happens, God's justice will eventually win out!
Holding on to this hope, this certainty that God's justice will finally come, is no easy thing. The author of Luke leaves Jesus' question hanging in midair for us to answer: will faith be found when the Son of Man comes? The author instructs us in this story that those who pray always do not lose and those who do not lose heart pray always.
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 7:46:50 AM
i haven't known how to say this, but something is bothering me and i wanted to mention it. i will do so once here, trying to make it relevant to this discussion, then invite any who want to discuss it over to the discussion board.
it's about the examples used here of christopher reeve, princess di, and michael j fox.
just because these were people of influence and wealth does not mean that their cries for mercy or justice are of any less value than a widow, or a poor person, or a disinfranchised person.
there are many people of means out there searching for a way to do good and work for justice. and sometimes these people are stricken THEN find their calling to justice.
for me, this speaks of just how God uses us and turns our inabilities into blessings.
some have described them as having selfish motives. just because they had means does not mean that they are selfish.
no, i don't know any of these celebrities personally, so i don't know what's in their hearts, but i do believe they were all changed by their conditions and then did something; often times to the benefit of others.
this widow was searching for justice... what justice are the people in your pews searching for? some of them have means... some don't, but God calls us all to be persistant in working for justice.
what makes this widow's story a powerful parable is not that she was a widow, but that she didn't stop calling for justice.
c reeve had a terrible accident that left his body totaly useless, but God made him useful.
princess di had wealth, a prestigious title, etc, but she saw victims of AIDS and placed her arms around them... God made her a comforter.
and fox's body is working against him so that he is unable to use his amazing talents as an actor, now he is using his talents to fight for more research and a cure to his disease.
we can't all be mother teresas, we can't all be c reeves or princess di's, but we can be what God has called us to be and in the process do his work: the work of justice.
that's all.
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 10/13/2004
Time: 8:24:17 AM
Somehow it makes a difference for me if the tavern owner and church ever really existed. "Illustration" without reality is mere rhetoric. I want to know the name of the town, the tavern and the church..…and the judge’s final ruling.
A parable need not have a tenuous relationship with reality: just as there are real good Samaritan’s, there have been widows with names battling judges who eventually face an inquiry into their insensitivity and corruption. Coho is on to something terribly profound. There are millions of actual flesh and blood otherwise relatively powerless people who are crying out for justice and a handful to eat for their malnourished children. Notice in the parable it is a powerless widow (with kids?) blocked in her pursuit of justice over against a nameless "party of the second part" (gender?) by an insensitive male judge.
I want to bring home to me and my people the REALITY of persistent faith in the midst of rampant human injustice and corruption. Faith that is willing to beat down the doors of heaven until justice comes in this life, God willing, but will not give up on the ultimate answer to those prayers: the return of Jesus, the righteous judge.
Does anyone know of a good film clip / docu-drama of someone in the widow's position? How about Erin Brockovich (an exemplar of persistence in the pursuit of justice but what of the faith in God part?) or The Messenger - Joan of Arc (great faith of a sort and persistent but a bit violent for my tastes).
I want me and my people to feel the widow’s plight – and why she is so persistent. If at the end all we feel is ashamed for our faithless tepid prayer-life, I will have failed them and Jesus.
Far more importantly, I want us to be inspired with genuine reality based know-so hope that our persistence can have more than parabolic value – that God will meet our prayers with his person and this world will more resemble His kingdom because of our prayers.
God forbid that I should finish preaching and we all feel good about prayer but have little motivation to keep on keeping on.
Duke in Teronna (That's Toronto)