Date: 9/13/2004
Time: 1:12:39 PM
When Jesus taught that no one can serve both God and wealth, some of his hearers mocked him. He responded with the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Date: 9/13/2004
Time: 1:13:01 PM
When this story was first heard, wealth was understood to be a sign of God's favour and poverty a sign of God's displeasure. Imagine the shock and intrigue of a story like this in that context. It is not the rich mand but poor Lazarus who is brought into eternal favour in the bosom of Abraham, a way of speaking about highest blessing and ultimate comfort. Reversals of fortune and things being turned upside down happen frequently in the gospel of Luke, along with critiques of the rich. At the heart of the critique of the rich man in this story is not what he possesses, but what he lacks. With his wealth he could have done so much to relieve the suffering of the man outside the gate, but as the name Lazarus suggests by its meaning, "God helps," the rich man did not even lift a finger to help. We do not witness them interacting at all, only the rich man's dogs lick Lazarus' sores. How ironic that the story turns to show the rich man begging Abraham to allow Lazarus to cool his parched lips. Clearly the man knew of Lazarus, his is able to call him by name when he wants to be served by him after death, but he had done nothing in life to show Lazarus mercy.
For the ones outside the gates in our world, the good news of this story is that "God helps." The challenge for those inside the gates, particularly those who not only have Moses and the prophets but also one who has risen from the dead to convince them, is "will you help?"
Date: 9/13/2004
Time: 1:13:28 PM
Poor Lazarus lost his job. Too weak to dig, now he begged. This rich man's doorstep was the best he'd found. At others he'd received nothing. The rich man benefited, too. Why feed perfectly good leftovers straight to the dogs? Let the beggar have them. That's the humane thing to do. He never thought, however, to invite Lazarus inside.
Does the chasm between Lazarus and the rich man exist only in parables? Bread for the World estimates that an American city discards as garbage sufficient food to supply a comparable European city, and a European city throws away enough to feed an Asian or African city. Warnings about such disparities rarely prompt change. Every generation hears prophetic tirades, and the letter to Timothy repeats an old saw with its reminder that hearses don't pull U-Haul trailers.
Sadly, the rich man in Jesus' story was poor even before he died. He'd given his heart to a fickle lover, namely, the 401(k), health insurance, and security system he trusted to keep him from becoming like Lazarus.
Our only hope of avoiding the rich man's fate is to lie outside the gates with only crumbs for supper and dogs to lick our wounds clean. We, too, must die. Hard as it sounds, we've already done this—in baptism. Now, in Abraham's bosom, with our wealth and virtues washed away with our sins, we join the one who crosses the chasm. The storyteller has set his face toward Jerusalem, heading not for the palace table, but a place outside the gates. On the cross, as dogs awaited his blood, he knew the torment of all who suffer with none to comfort them.
"He descended to hell," we confess. There he joins us kinfolk of that sorry rich man. With those ruined hands and feet he seems a beggar. "Come," he says, "here is bread for your hunger, wine for your soul. Take. Eat."
As always, there are leftovers. We may take some if we wish, to feed others outside. But really, there's room inside for everybody.
Frederick Niedner
Date: 9/13/2004
Time: 1:13:50 PM
Fred Craddock writes:
The first part of the parable (vv. 19-26) is a much-traveled story, forms of it being found in several cultures. Some scholars trace its origin to Egypt, where stories of the dead and of messages being brought from the dead are in abundance. At least seven versions are to be found in the rabbis. In one version the characters are a rich merchant and a poor teacher; in another, a rich and haughty woman and her servile husband. The story in Luke is, of course, Jewish in orientation (Father Abraham), appropriate to an audience of Pharisees and to the point that Luke is making. Theologically it is most congenial to Luke, not only in its perspectives on rich and poor but also in the reversal of the fortunes of the rich man and Lazarus. An eschatological reversal is central in Luke's understanding of the final coming of the reign of God. The parable reflects popular beliefs about the hereafter and the state of the dead. The preacher will want to avoid getting reduced into using the descriptions of the fates of the two men as providing revealed truth on the state of the dead. In other words, this is not a text for a sermon on "Five Minutes After Death." Details are rich and sharp. For the rich man, life is a daily banquet at a bounteous table, his abundance spilling over onto his person, draped as he is in robes of royalty over fine Egyptian undergarments. Nothing about him even hints of need. The poor man, clothed in running sores, squats (lies) among the dogs, gaunt, hollow-eyed, and famished, his face turned toward the rich man's house in the museum stare of the dying. Both die, but only the rich man has a burial (v. 22). Now their roles are reversed. Lazarus is an honored guest at the messianic banquet, while the rich man lies in anguish in the flames of hades (Old Testament: Sheol). Their conditions now unalterably final.
Let us pause to remind ourselves that whatever this story meant in other contexts, it is here used by Luke to address Pharisees who loved wealth and scoffed at Jesus' position on the subject (v. 14). As Pharisees whose religion wa s of the Book, their love of wealth found its confirmation in the law and the prophets, as pointed out at verses 14-15. Whoever is careful to obey the commands of God shall be highly favored: "Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, and the fruit of your beasts, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock" (Dt 28.3-4). The equations are quite clear to them: wealth=blessed of God-obedience to God's commandments. If, then, the parable is to address them, the rich man cannot be an exaggeration of godless materialism but a realistic portrait of a man whose wealth was taken as evidence of God's favor, a man with whom the Pharisees can identify. Otherwise the story has interest but no power. And as for the poor man, is not his condition the punishment of God on a life unknown to us but known to God? It is true that Luke reveals nothing directly about the characters of these two men, and some have faulted the story for its apparent economic prejudice: the rich go to hell, the poor go to heaven. But there is a theology assumed in the parable that Luke is attacking, a theology that says of the one who delights in God's law, "In all that he does, he prospers," but "the wicked are not so" (Ps 1.3-4). In fact, and may this thought self-destruct immediately, the rich man could have defended his not helping Lazarus with the argument that one should not interfere when God is punishing a person. Such have been the reasoning of some church people in this country who have refused to minister to the hungry and the homeless.
This portrait of the rich man has been drawn to fit the Pharisees before whom he is placed. Whatever confirmation and support the rich man and the Pharisees found in the Scriptures for their love of wealth, it is a fact that the situation presented in the parable is a clear violation of those same Scriptures. The law of Moses specifically required that the harvest be shared with the poor and the transient (Lev 19.9- 10), and the law spelled out other ways to carry out the fundamental injunction, "You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in the land" (Dt 15.7-11). And the prophets offered no release from the law: "Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?" (Isa 58.6-7). Neither did Jesus: "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void" (v. 17). It is because of this point about the law and the prophets that for Luke the parable must continue, even though stopping at verse 26 would have already made a point vital not only for Luke but for all disciples of Jesus: wherever some eat and others do not eat, there the kingdom does not exist, quote whatever Scripture you will.
In verses 27-32, the rich man wants a message sent to his five brothers so they can avoid the torment of Hades. Abraham tells him that they already have in the law and the prophets the adequate and sufficient message, just as the rich man did. The rich man knows that just as he missed the word of God to him in the Scriptures, so might his brothers. Something more extraordinary is needed, such as someone rising from the dead. Not only is Abraham's word true in principle, that the Scriptures are sufficient for faith and for a life in the will of God, but it was also, in Luke's view, true historically: the rejection of the risen Christ had its root in the misunderstanding of the true meaning of the law and the prophets. According to Luke, it is not only on the subject of wealth and poverty that Jesus and not the Pharisees properly interprets Scripture; Luke has been careful to show, from the birth narratives on, that what Jesus says and does is according to Scripture. Later, Luke will point out that the risen Christ taught his disciples to understand Moses, the prophets, and the writings (24.25-27, 44-47). And even later, in Acts, Luke will present the early church's message about Jesus as being true to the Jewish Scriptures (Acts 2.16-36). Luke does not, as many preachers after him have, handle the tensions with Judaism by easily speaking of the Old superseded by the New. Jesus and the church lived within that tradition and worked at an interpretation of that tradition which opened the way for the full reign of God. The meaning of Scripture and the will of God concerning material good, wealth, and poverty was a vital subject in the debate between Jesus and some of the Pharisees. The debate continues, but now it is between Jesus and some of his followers.
Date: 9/13/2004
Time: 1:26:18 PM
The contrast of the rich man (traditionally given the name "Dives") and the poor man (Lazarus) is all- too-familiar to us today in our contrast of classes today. The rich are dressed in the finest linens and "feast sumptuously," while the poor lay at the doorsteps. In some cases, the doorsteps may lay outside our borders, or outside our neighborhoods; but the divisions are sharply defined, and just as sharply maintained.
Not listening to others is a sign of a closed heart. The rich man's problem is not simply that he failed to listen to Moses and the Prophets. That would probably not even be the failing of his five brothers. It is likely, however, that he and his brothers observed the path of least commitment to the tradition—so much so that they could not really claim allegiance to it. Instead of hearing the cries of the poor, who are really echoing God's own call for justice, the rich shut out the "noise" and listen only to their own sense of self-sufficiency, or seek the easy path of self-justification. Likewise, the poor, in their own struggle to be heard, may insist on their own rights—and thereby place too much value in having that plea heard as their final justification.
Ultimately, the judgment of God is a result of witnessing our "non-listening" being. God takes that aspect of our human lives seriously; but it is not for our benefit. Is it any wonder, therefore, that in the last analysis, the great chasm is fixed which "no one can cross"?
Our Christian creeds confess that Jesus the Christ "descended into hell." That confession is not simply about some other-worldly locus, but (as Luther correctly noted) that Christ descended into the hell of our lives today. There, where the great divide between God and ourselves is ever present, Jesus becomes himself humbled by descending into the depths of our chasm—but not to bring us the judgment we deserve. He descends into our hell to bring us the enduring hope through his exaltation and resurrection from the dead!
That hope which Jesus brings in his rising from the dead lifts us out of our chasm and into a new life by which we become "convinced." Convinced of what? Convinced of what Moses and the Prophets were pointing us to—that we are not ultimately self-sufficient, but that we are—all of us, rich and poor alike—dependent on God's grace, which is alone sufficient to save, and does in fact save us from the "justice" we deserved under the law. Our conviction in that hope overcomes the barriers in our hearts, and keeps us open to God's renewing, daily promise.
That sense of dependence that we have on God our Father through our Lord Jesus Christ has a humbling effect—and produces a humbling lifestyle. But, like our Lord, it is in being humbled that we are ultimately exalted as children in the faithful line of Abraham. The humility of dependency is, in fact, the way to overcome the barriers of class, and to love one another.
Mike Hoy
Date: 9/16/2004
Time: 8:14:21 AM
Responding to Fredrick Neidner and all those who seem to be black and white on this issue; remember that Jesus did not sit at the door step of rich men begging. In fact at one time he was asked if he and his disciples should go and buy food for thousands. Not to say that they had that kind of money, but they did have a treasurer. By all means, let us not commit the sin of ignoring those in need... but let us not commit the sin of blissful ignorance... it is O.K. to have a 401(k) and a good salary. I am relativly sure that just because you are on the forbes list of wealthy people that does not put you in hell. Polarizing the argument only polarizes the participants. Is that what we are called to do? Kyle
Date: 9/18/2004
Time: 3:41:41 PM
don't be greedy
Date: 9/18/2004
Time: 4:21:46 PM
The sin of "Dives" and of many others who are wealthy is not that they are rich; it is when they (we) become haughty or set their (our) hopes on riches and on ourselves--our ability to get rich and to hold onto riches--instead of on God. Paul in the Epistle lesson for this week counsels contentment with whatever we have, and generosity if we have more than we need to live. Is it fair to understand that Jesus, by his parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is also counseling reliance not on self and wealth, but on God? In verse 15, after all, he states that "what is prized by human beings is an abomination in the sight of God." Reliance on wealth??
Finally, I have always just loved the irony in verse 31, that even if someone rises from the dead some will not be convinced. I love the foreshadowing of the Resurrection and the many who still do not believe.
Heidi in MN
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 12:46:27 PM
Abraham told the rich man in hades, No one can cross between where you are and where Lazarus is. Well, maybe according to Jewish faith, but according to mine, somebody did just that. He descended into hell and later he ascended into heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty. (Apostles' Creed, for those of you who don't use it in your churches)
God has broken out of the mold that human faith has cast him into. He can do what the great ones of Judaism said could never be done. Jesus has passed from glory to torment to glory again.
God continues to amaze us with what he does. We haven't seen the last of him yet. What we now consider impossible or undo-able may very well be on God's To Do Next list. For the Jews of Luke's time, they didn't accept what God had done in Jesus, and so still considered the leap from hades to heaven as an unachievable one. It is a chasm Jesus has bridged for us. We can go from death to life because of him, from the awfulness of death into the blessings of a Christ-embraced eternity.
To personalize this parable a little:
This parable tells me that I'm going to be surprised when the people I didn't want to deal with fairly on earth because they were a little weird or prejudiced or were somehow not my type are the people God keeps closest to his heart. Even the people I would happily toss out the nearest window because they are impossible to deal with. I'm going to be odd person out if I can't see people with the eyes of Jesus Christ, which see past the parts that put me off and into the parts that are good. For the rich of Luke's time, anything not associated with wealth and its blessings was off-putting and rejectable. For me, it's anyone who doesn't fit in my neat box of acceptable behavior and thinking. I may be needing my own cup of cool water soon.
Early thoughts. I'm looking forward to yours as the week progresses.
KHC
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 1:44:49 PM
I'm curious about the chasm. No one can cross from here to you, and no one can cross form there to us.'
Generally this is preached from the context of "cross that chasm from sinner to righteous person before it's too late and you're unable to cross and end up tormented along with the Rich Man."
Then again, there's a side of me that wants to preach this hell, fire, and brimstone-style only without all the usual drivel about illicit sex, homosexuality, family values, and abortion... This is different. Rather than being tormented because he was not personally pious, the rich man was tormented because he ignored the need (Lazarus, whom even the dogs tended to) right under his nose (which is a form of personal piety ... just has nothing to do with sex). Kind of like the Wicked Witch of the West, I want to say to rich people, "You'll get yours, My Pretty."
Be Alert ... you know neither the day nor the hour... a voice is calling, 'You Fool! It's tonight.' ... God is calling us right this moment and we often can't even see the need on our doorsteps.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 1:48:19 PM
ohhh ... should clarify ... the chasm may just be the chasm between our looking to the pie in the sky by and by Heaven - bound future and focusing so heavily on the hereafter that we fail to recognize the right now. The right now cannot see the eternal (at least not fully) and the eternal cannot fully reveal itself within the context of the finite right now.
Sally
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 4:14:50 PM
You've touched a nerve with me, Sally. I am concerned about the trend in modern times that I'm Saved is the whole enchilada, a home run. It's not. We still have to run the bases before we score. While we're running the bases, we are called to pay attention to the needs of the people around us - and not just whether they are saved or not. If they need food, supplies to clean up their homes after the hurricanes, medical insurance, whatever, we cannot turn our backs because it messes up our plans for the day or eats into our vacation savings. Being saved has become a ticket to laziness and self-congratulations for not being like "them" in their obvious need. So the Pharisees. They just knew they were chosen for the good life in eternity so they paid no mind to the call to love your neighbor when the neighbor is an unclean nobody. I know too many saved Christians who do nothing but sing about being saved and when they are asked to lend a real hand, all they want to do is win the soul rather than feed the body.
Another story. I love stories. As a Social Work major in college, I went around to different social service agencies in the college town. One was the Salvation Army. They do good work, no doubt. But we were just getting ready to sit down to an evening worship service one night when a man in desperate need came through the door looking for a meal and a bed. He looked like it had been weeks since he'd seen either. They welcomed in the "brother" but made him sit through the entire service of worship (and it was lengthy) before they would give him so much as a cup of soup. He was nearly falling off his chair in hunger and fatigue, but he had to get saved before he could eat. I was outraged, and was also thwarted in my effort to bring him a sandwich from the fully stocked kitchen that had the aroma of soup wafting through the room. They told me in no uncertain terms that he needed to give thanks to God first for saving him, then he could fill his belly. I told them he needed something to thank God about - food and sleep - before he'd understand what he was being thankful to God for. Needless to say, I did not get assigned to the Salvation Army camp for my internship. It's been 30 years, but I have never forgotten that evening.
KHC
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 5:42:09 PM
sally and khc,
you've really started us off this week.
this story (as told through your posts) makes me think of those people i know who don't come to church, but who do the work of the church better than many "christians" i know. they feed the hungry, clothe the naked, sit with the grieving, etc... while we sit in church on sunday mornings singing our hymns and thinking: i'm so glad that i've been saved.
i'm not trying to downplay worship, i feel strongly about the need and the command to worship God in Christ Jesus, but could this parable really be telling us about just what the church should be rahter than what it is?
another story that i think of is the one where jesus contrasts the prayers of the pharisee and the tax collector.
the work of the church is to feed the hungry (and sometimes the food is spiritual rather than actual bread) the church is not a thing, but a constant action: a verb.
the rich man could have "churched" lazarus, but instead he acted as some churches do.
i also appreciate the thoughts on the creed. is there a second chance for the rich man in hell because someone was raised from the dead?
and if so, does that mean that what jesus does, in the resurrection, is to make the chasm crossable so that rich and poor alike might be able to minister to one another?
early musings.
and thanks to everyone for last week, you got me through a difficult text and helped make my sermon "relevant" (as one person said).
God's peace, christine
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 6:38:15 PM
I wonder if the chasm was established by the rich man in this life? It seems to me that in God's economy enough is supplied for all, but it usually doesn't get fully distributed directly. God allows us to participate in the distribution so that we can participate in the joy of generosity and grace. When we divorce ourselves from God's plan for meeting the needs of the community, we tear a chasm between the "haves" and "have-nots." The chasm it seems is of our design, not of God. I love the foreshadowing as well. Will we listen to one who was raised from the dead who was sent to warn us? Dare we live without the chasm? (You know the one. It is so massive and frightening we turn away or grow glassy eyed when we get too close to the edge, for fear we will fall in too.) What happens when we dare to reach across? (reach a cross?) Hmmm. Sunday night musings. -ss in PA
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 7:03:13 PM
Maybe the title in Central's bulletin will be: "Five things in Hell That Ought to Be in Church!" 1. v.23 farsightedness 2. v.24 praying 3. v.24 humility 4. v.27 concern for others 5. v.30 talking about Jesus
(Galveston Teacher)
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 5:14:31 AM
This whole deal about eating what falls off the table and being in the company of dogs reminds me of that Canaanite woman story in Matthew ...
gone to check it out ...
Storyteller
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 5:26:24 AM
What strikes me in this scripture is the sheer arogance of the rich man. Even as hes is lamenting his fate while in torment he demands that Lazarus dip his finger into water to cool his tongue. He also demands that father Abraham send Lazarus to his fathers house to warn his brothers. The rich man just didnt get it. Joe
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 6:17:01 AM
KHC - "Here, Here" on everything you said with one exception: you indicated that it's a modern trend to get stuck in the "I'm Saved!" mode. I don't think it's modern; there have been spiritually lazy people all along ... it just happens to be the latest version of the Pharisaical frame of mind. For example: today's praise choruses are no less "meaty" than some of the camp meeting songs from the 30's. The genre has changed, but the tendency is toward a theology that says "I'm going to Heaven, nanny nanny boo boo!" (of course, implicit in this is "you're NOT going to Heaven, but that's just the icing on the cake).
I liked your example: I know a number of Salvation Army folks - and they, too, would have been appalled at that scene. I guess, like anywhere else, some camps/congregations are healthier than others.
Here's one of my own, that came to me from my church administration professor, Tom Frank. He was talking about the trustees of the church and how the tendency is to want to "protect ~their~ church." He described a congregation in Atlanta with a permanent painted (though it had faded) sign that announced "Men's Bible Study: Every Wednesday 7:00 PM. All Welcome!" In the doorway of that (locked) church were huddled about 3 homeless men finding shelter against the wind. He wondered if the men's Bible Study at 7:00 that Wednesday would have REALLY welcomed those men. Dr. Frank wondered if ALL were REALLY welcome. I do, too.
The thing I notice soooooo much in all congregations is how often we kid ourselves. This may be a good week to look inside ourselves to see where (not "if") we're kidding ourselves.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 6:24:23 AM
Joe: WOW! I'd never thought of that ... his view of Lazarus' and Laz' servile station never changed even though all the evidence told him, "this is wrong."
Don't have to look far to see THAT play out today. Who else thinks of certain groups of people as servants - and probably will never change their minds? It's not limited to a racial thing, but it sheds an extra facet of poignancy on the Negro Spiritual (that's the genre name, folks) "Poor Man, Lazarus."
It's the underdogs who can say so confidently, "You'll get yours, My Pretty."
Sally in GA
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 6:34:14 AM
this is a meaty text. (no pun intended)as compared to yesterday's dense gospel reading. but they are certainly connected.
the rich man was most likely very shrewd with money to have acquired so much, yet... look at what it got him.
luke's theme of caring for the poor certainly points us to examining just how we use and abuse the gifts God gives us.
moneys only real worth comes when we give it away.
sally, what strikes me is not that the rich man demanded that abraham send lazarus to help him and his brothers, but that he chose lazarus to help.
he didn't ask abraham to quench his thirst, or to send himself to warn his brothers, but that he wanted abraham to "use" lazarus to fulfill his needs.
he was still walking on the backs of the poor.
since, we are often called to read parables by putting jesus, God, and us in the places of the characters... this makes jesus=lazarus.
to follow along with the discussion; we expect jesus to do our bidding, even when we have no standing to ask anything of him.
what will change when he is actaully raised from the dead?
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 6:36:55 AM
Galveston Teacher: That was good, very good!
KHC: While I agree with you that "I'm going to be surprised when the people I didn't want to deal with" will be in heaven, I am not sure that it is the thrust of the parable. No surprise there, since Craddock found many similar traditions.
Sally, I thought your reaction would be close to the indignation Jesus may have as he tell this story in response to the rejection/mocking of the materalistic Pharisee. This could give you the ammo you need to confront the modern ones today.
Christine, I would line up with your social justice take on the text this week. Right on.
Have othing to contribute yet, Coho.
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 7:32:52 AM
I have always been struck by the graphic imagery of the finger being dipped in cool water and then placed on the tongue to asuage the agony of the fire... dramatic stuff!
Rev NB
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 7:36:37 AM
Thanks to all the desperate preachers from another. Last week's discussion stimulated my thought process which needed a serious jumpstart re: the dishonest manager. I am reasonably satisfied with the resulting sermon. And now with thoughts of the rich man and poor Laz, I am grateful for all of you and your willingness to engage in a process of sharing. Maybe my desperation can carry all week with more helpful stewing time this time. Anyway, I certainly do concur with those who emphasize the social justice, compassion matter and plan to preach on "Which Side Are You On?" Now I have to do a soul check on myself to consider the question I am going to ask my congregation. But more than just what side I am on, I need to realize how Christ is present and whose side he or Abraham or other holy servants of God are at. Am I just into me and my stuff and my agenda and neglecting real matters of life and need at my doorstep? And how much is that true of my church? And my society (and government)? Thanks again to God for desperate preachers like y'all! E D W
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 8:09:25 AM
As part of the way the Luke reports the reversal of fortunes that come when Christ enters a situation, notice that the poor man has a name and the rich man does not. (Dives is traditon, not scripture)
I ran across a quote in the Earthlink Newsletter from William Stringfellow: "When money is an idol, to be poor is a sin." How true. We blame the poor for being poor. We don't care that the nation of Sudan has killed more than 50,000 of its own (poor) people. Hurricanes that only bring death and destruction to Haiti and Cuba, and not to us, are of no consequence. We want God to bless America and no one else, and then wonder why there is no joy in our (supposed) faith-life. Maybe if someone would just rise from the dead that would get our attention??? JRW in OH
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 8:24:10 AM
I like to start my sermons off with some sort of relavant story and I am trying to think of how to work in something to do with Dante's Divine Comedy to perhaps expound on the "Hell" imagery?
Rev NB
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 9:08:20 AM
Galveston Teacher
Great idea and outline.
To those who would name the rich man using church tradition, I believe part of the original irony of the parable is that the rich man is nameless (which would be a tremendeous dishonor even and especially in death) and the poor man has a name.
It's a dangerous thing to do to change Jesus' stories.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 11:09:03 AM
Someone had said, "It's not the thing I don't understand about Scripture that bother me; but it's the thing that I do understand!"
When I re-read the text with a focus on social justice, the bothersome question is "How and to what extent?"
I identified myself with the rich man.
Even though I consider myself a faithful follower of Christ; our family tithed beyond what was asked of us to finance for various ministries, we spent all our times outside of work to serve the people of God in the church, we committed to a simplistic life (my boy is not even have Xbox, or PS2 yet, but borrowing someone else obsolete Sega Dreamcast to play), etc.
Yet, I am still a rich man with double managerial incomes, a house and two cars. Compare to the third world country I came from, we are beyond rich! Compare to our average congregation, we are rich! My wife could afford the latest brand name fashion (even though she often got them on sales at outlet mall), so in a way we were "dressed in purple and fine linen". I myself loved good food, I watched "Iron Chef" every time I got a chance, and I feel no regret dining in Beverly Hills on vacation and paying for $35 per plate, so in a way I was "feasting sumptuously".
One can justify my life style by exegete the word "every day" at the end of verse 19. But if one willing to compare my daily "standard" with those "standards" in the third world countries, then in deed, I am living large "every day", even in my modest days.
Some would point to the fact that Lazarus was placed at the rich man's gate as an indicator that contrasts between the rich and poor here happened at the local context. Of course, if we compare ourselves to Haiti and Bangladesh then we all the rich men. But may be we are called to confront the situation at our own gates first as a start.
I found comfort in the fact that the Gospel didn't condemn the rich man to hell just because he was rich, or admit Lazarus to heaven just because he was poor.
May be the text was not about social justice as "the rich will be punished, and the poor will be rewarded eternally" at all. But it more like social justice in the local context, make sure you respond to whatever opportunities God placed around you.
But was that it?
I still see myself as the rich man. He knew Lazarus by name, he even allowed the poor beggar to hang out at the gate, he probably gave the poor guy a few coins here and there on a good day. But Scripture seemed to condemn the rich man with the description of Lazarus "longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table." So, when the parishioner who live in the mobile home slump long to have a big house like mine, would I be condemned too?
What do I and the rich man were supposed to do? Selling off my house and move into the mobile home slump? Embrace the ascetic life and deprive myself of any good thing in life like the monks would?
No! Notice that the message the rich man wanted to send back was not that of, "live a pious life", nor "sell all your possessions now!" The message was "warn them", (Gk. diamarturomai = thoroughly/dia + testify/martureo). He wanted Lazarus to testify what he had been through, that there is an after life, that there is heaven and hell, that there is punishments and rewards.
Abraham generalized the message a bit more and said that the Law and the Prophets was enough for living people to listen to already. It is interesting that Jesus referred to the same term Law and Prophet only a few verses earlier in v. 16, and confirmed its eternal validity in v. 17. Jesus also pointed to the Good News of the Kingdom in v.16b which caused a stampede for people to rush in the Kingdom since then. After all, He was the guy who comes back from the dead to carry the message of the tormented rich man (grin, not literally of course).
Seeing the parable in this light, I am no longer identified myself as the rich man, or fear condemnation because of I am rich (compare to my other brothers and sisters). If I have the farsightedness to prepare to the next age, if I walked my life accordingly to the Law of God, if I heed the warning of the Prophets, if I repented according to the Resurrected One, I should have nothing to fear.
In the mean time, I understood that my blessing (even though coming from God), could cause social barriers to many of my less unfortunate brothers, and that's why we didn't drive a Mercedes nor spending money on unnecessities. I also understood that we would be ridiculed by my less unfortunate brothers too, for sending my kid to private school, and buying top-of-the-line products if they worth the money I invest in. (Especially if I keep my charity giving records private as Jesus commanded me).
I realized that my disclosure above would not be an accurate measurement of who I am since you don't know who I am personally in my context. But I am open to your judgment of my thinking on this text. After all, in the next few verses, Jesus said to his disciples about not causing anyone to stumble, and that "if another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender" (Luke 17:3).
What do you think? Am I rationalizing my way to have my cake and eat it too?
Name-Withheld-to-ensure-impartial-judgment...
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 11:16:54 AM
the same chasm that effected the rich man and Lazarus following their death was equally present in their relationship to one another in life... how can one person be so short-sighted that they cannot see the needs of others around them...
niebuhrian in va
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 11:21:02 AM
Off-topic:
Niebuhrian in VA, finally I had a chance to articulate a bit about the "Faith Paralleling Culture" a bit at http://i12know.blogspot.com/2004/09/cyclical-pattern-of-faith-intersecting.html - I would love to have your comments on the subject.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 2:17:07 PM
A chasm - I had enjoyed supper in a very nice downtown restuarant, attended a talk in a beautiful cathedral style church and was heading back to my lodging on public transit. It was crowded and I stood at the back of the car. One harmless looking fellow was giving a lecture on the transit systems to whoever would listen. Suddenly a very dirty person jumped up and came toward where I was standing. "Some one should call the cops. That guy's on drugs." he or she said right in my face. "Get away from me!" I silently said to this person who covered in sores and flaking skin. His or her (for I honestly couldn't tell) clothes were filthy - their colour totally indistinguishable. I hoped I had not physically stepped as far as I had mentally. Even as I tried to politley ignore this person, I remembered how often I have preached on seeing Christ in all we meet, so I tried to smile at this person and really respond to him or her. But the chasm was too wide for me to cross and I continued to hope to just be left alone. So when I read this parable, you know with whom I identify. I guess I am trying cross a chasm when I really should be trying to fill it in. Blessings LGB
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 2:42:28 PM
Name-Withheld, Go ahead and eat that cake, you know who blessed you with it, and if someone looks hungry -- share--never knew anyone who needed to eat a whole cake :) On the heals of last week's text I wondered how much it would have hurt the rich man to offer some food and medicine to Lazarus or even find some work for him to do? Would it have sent him to the poor house? Probably just cost him a little pride. Along with humility, look how much more would he have gained. I think there is a point where we have to admit those who have and often have a lot, can do some great things they couldn't do if they didn't have. It's all in who's name we do those things (again a conection form last week to this week) I agree with those who see danger in reading this story as "rich is bad, poor is good" story. I've rambled enough for the first time here--thanks for your patience and all your wonderful insights everyone--I'm loving this site. It was a blessing last week! Rev G
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 2:43:01 PM
Name-Withheld, Go ahead and eat that cake, you know who blessed you with it, and if someone looks hungry -- share--never knew anyone who needed to eat a whole cake :) On the heals of last week's text I wondered how much it would have hurt the rich man to offer some food and medicine to Lazarus or even find some work for him to do? Would it have sent him to the poor house? Probably just cost him a little pride. Along with humility, look how much more would he have gained. I think there is a point where we have to admit those who have and often have a lot, can do some great things they couldn't do if they didn't have. It's all in who's name we do those things (again a conection form last week to this week) I agree with those who see danger in reading this story as "rich is bad, poor is good" story. I've rambled enough for the first time here--thanks for your patience and all your wonderful insights everyone--I'm loving this site. It was a blessing last week! Rev G
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 2:54:40 PM
jrw in oh,
your post reminded me of a time at my internship congregation (which was fairly affluent). hubby and i lived in newark, nj and i communted to the church while hubby worked in newark.
people at my internship site were always concerned about me living "there." newark was named the most dangerous city in america the year we did internship.
at a lenten supper my supervisor used my situation as an example and a member commented that we needed to forgive them for being poor. i understand what he was trying to say, but he had missed the point. no, i said, that's not quite right: we must realize that we are all in need of forgiveness.
rich or poor we are all expected to give and to be repentant for those times when we hoard possessions rather than sharing our riches with others.
what might have the rich man received if instead of asking for more "stuff" while tormented in hell, he had simply asked for forgiveness for his neglect of lazarus?
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 2:57:46 PM
One thing that should strike many of us: the rich man was concerned for his "brothers" those in his family but had all along forgotten his brother Lazarus. Father Abraham had to remind him of that Pastor Keg
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 2:58:30 PM
Dear friends,
Since it is only Monday and I have been away from preaching for two weeks this may not be very focused but here goes on some subjects of the story:
1. Hell. Hell, place of the dead. Sheol in OT terms. Gehenna (not sure I spelled that right) was the garbage heap of Jerusalem. A smelly foul place which prefigured the place of eternal torment which he talked about often. The place of everlasting torment according to Revelation is yet to be opened for business. Contrary to popular belief Satan and all the demons are not there ruling now. They roam the face of the earth. They are in many cases unnoticed. They probably dress up well and attend church since it seems to me that is where they do their best work! We just don’t walk down the street and say, “Hey, honey. Look at that demon over there!” There are in fact some people that look like hell but they may or may not be demons. Contrary to modern notions there will be no rulers there, only suffering. I believe it was Dante’s Inferno where Satan’s remark to God was, “Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven”. The hell that is to be opened and then filled after judgement day is real and eternal. It is nothing to snicker at.
The chasm thing: Death itself is the chasm that cannot be crossed. Jesus is the exception and others have brought that out. I do not think this is the passage to use to make a point about the chasme that keeps up apart since it is an after death knd of thing. Of course there is much freedom of thought on this.
To "Name-Withheld-to-ensure-impartial-judgment... " I know who you are! And I am proud to know you.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 3:45:59 PM
Forgiveness becomes an issue for me in this parable. Since Lazarus had known torment in his earthly life, why did he not lift a finger (despite Abraham) to help a brother of the covenant who was now in torment? Seems to me that there is no room for forgiveness in this story, which bothers me. It is part of our NT, which brings it under the banner of Good News, which I find lacking here. I read retribution and coldness where Jesus might require restoration and healing. Surely, if Jesus could forgive those who tormented him, there could be something in here about Lazarus (and Abraham) dealing gently with the rich man who sinned against his fellow covenant person. This is too tit-for-tat for my comprehension and stands opposed to my faith. Sorry.
Date: 9/20/2004
Time: 4:23:14 PM
Sorry, (I am not sure if you intended to sign with that handle or not...)
It seems like there is a point in our eternal existence that forgiveness will no longer be available. The chasm here "has been fixed (Gk. 'strengthen', or 'fortified'), so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us"
As Christine noted, the rich man there didn't even ask for forgiveness (may it was beyond his capability by then?). Once we decided to NOT follow God, He will respect our choice. That's why both John and Jesus preached "repent and believe, while the Kingdom of God is at hand". And that's why the book of Revelation was hard to swallow (since there's no forgiveness there either).
Coho, Midway City.
PS: Sorry if I dug up the old debate about the "judgement of God" from a few weeks ago. But this time, I think the text would be more appropriate rather than the 99 sheep passage.
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 5:05:18 AM
KHC, A very good illustration from your experience as a social worker, but most likely not typical of SA mission. I have worked along side of the Salvation Army for many years as a missionary in Africa. Not only do I not see any rice ministry on their part, thier dedication to the poor and victimized puts us Lutherans to shame. sj in Nairobi
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 6:02:55 AM
Rev NB - your dipping the finger comment is true ... and leads me to another thought!
Why not say, "Father Abraham, send Lazarus to douse me with a bucket of water and put the flame out!"
Sally in GA
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 6:14:29 AM
Good thoughts this week, y'all! Again, I'm posting one by one as I read through yesterday's posts...
Rev G - your thoughts on whether the Rich Man could have given food or medicine to Laz - or even given him work to do ... reminded me of Elizabeth Smart. Her mother hired a vagrant to do work in the house and he abducted her and made her his wife and kept her in secret for 6 - 9 months.
Sally
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 6:40:57 AM
It always strikes me that the cross of Christ is the bridge across the "unbridgeable" chasm. Without it - without the kind of self-giving love of Christ - rich and poor have nothing to say to each other, and feel no responsibility toward each other.
Last week, when I was preaching on "the admirable qualities of the corporate thief" (yes, really!) I talked about a well-known businessman, est. worth one billion dollars. I pointed out that he's actually worth much more than that: he's worth the blood of Christ, shed for him and you and me and the poor and the rich. That transforms all our relationships with each other.
I must admit: it does bother me a little that Lazarus has no voice in this parable. He is treated as object (of rich man's arrogance, of Abraham's compassion) but not as subject. I guess Jesus wasn't as politically correct as I am!? Hey... why did the sign on my office door just change to "Chief Pharisee?" :-)
LF
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 6:44:03 AM
Last Response to "Name Witheld" - thank you for bringing into focus the ambiguities in this text. I started this week on Sunday night. It's our habit to go out to lunch after worship on Sunday (and being a predominantly white church in a predominantly African American area, we get there before the rest of the after-church crowd!) Anyways, we went to an Italian restaurant - our first time going there.
It was goooooooooooooood! Even though it was a chain, it was probably the best Italian food I've had. But it was expensive - our bill was $44 for the four of us. Also, I ate veal parmesian. I'd not been "tormented" enough, ethically speaking, to eat something other than veal ... nor to ask for the menu when we walked in before we realized how expensive it was.
And we won't even TALK about going out on Sunday, forcing someone ELSE to work while we worship and take it easy!
What a tangled web we weave. After doing all that Sunday afternoon, then reading this post Sunday evening ... I identified with the rich man.
HOWEVER ... while Jesus uses the "rich" and "poor" reversal of fortunes to challenge the popular thoughts of the day, that the poor were under divine punishment or something ... we can really get disoriented when we try to identify who's rich and who's poor. We all know rich people who are rich in spirit and poor people who are rich in spirit, and rich who are poor, and poor who are poor.
Therefore, I'm considering whether this is less about identifying who's who and what we privileged people ought to do about it than it is about responsible stewardship ... and above all, humility.
We feast pretty sumptuously today ... only in American can obsese people be malnourished! And what we're DRIVING these days!
I saw a commercial about a month ago - and I haven't seen it since, but I laughed out loud at it. It shows people going to pick up their kids after school in vehicles like tanks and steamrollers and bulldozers... and the caption for the vehicle they were selling was "How big does your SUV have to be?" it was for a more modest van-like SUV. But it's so true! My Corolla gets positively dwarfed (and my daughter has missed me altogether) after school, sandwiched in between luxury SUV's and Hummers. And this is at a Christian school!
But it's not much better at the public school where my little one goes (and where the folks of my church worry about her going - presuming that because the school is 99% African American that it's an inferior school - but it's actually better than the public elementary schools my older girl went to in the rural white areas).
Oh, I'll just say it again ... what a tangled web we weave.
I'd better shut up now; that post just made me burn my oatmeal. Blech!
Sally in GA
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 6:47:49 AM
Thanks to all for your posts on this challenging passage. After reading them , this is what came to mind. Maybe the message, the lesson is that wealth our possessions mean nothing. They get us nowhere with God. To have or not have is no measure of our worth. What matters is relationship - valuing each person in ways which reflect GOd's love as taught by Scripture and especially Jesus. THe only issue we hafve with possesions and wealth is will we do with them waht God would have us do with them, which is to use them for good & for love - per Jesus' commands. The things that really matter in life are free and freeing. Jim inCT.
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 7:13:06 AM
Great things to think about here...
One thing Jesus never condems the rich for being rich, it is in the remembering who we are... May not who we are but who's we are?
Another thing which seems absent from this conversation so far is the fact the poor man is names Lazarus, and the rich man is not, Divas is from the latin for rich and is given as his name, but Jesus does not name him.
Another thing is that Abraham calls the rich man Child, he is a child of Abraham, yet is not with him in paradise! The Law and the Prohpets are effecient to lead us to an understanding of what will happen when the one rises from the grave, but if you can not understand it before, you will not get it after... Is this really what Jesus meant?
We need to remember the law and prophets and what Jesus told us, and it is the fact we are named by God, that the grace flows freely and we are accepted because of him, that we can be rich or poor, and see the needs of those around us and help the last little least lost, and be Jesus to the world.
asacredrebel
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 8:23:11 AM
Jesus talks about money more than any other topic. He condemns the Pharisees for being "lovers of money," (see the text before this story). He tells the rich young ruler that he must give away everything before he can enter into eternity. We can spiritualize it to make people feel better about having so many possessions, but it doesn't cover the fact that living in such a way causes chasms between the haves and have nots, between us and eternity. God can surely over come it, but we must not easily gloss over the radical nature of Jesus' message about wealth. RB in CA
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 9:33:48 AM
LF,
On your point of, "Lazarus has no voice in this parable." Some had posulated that it is not possible for many in heaven (like Lazarus, except Abraham) to see (or to even know/aware about) hell. If not, would it be possible for the heavenly citizens to go about and not being tormented by knowing people who suffered hell...
Aahh, going down this path and we will enter the realm of speculations, and leave the realm of the actual revelations.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:04:06 AM
First musings...."It's Good To Be Rich" pick up on 1 Timothy 6.18 and preach on Luke and Timothy. revjaw
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:19:29 AM
I've been reading your posts and am so thankful for all of the various insights. I am confused about a few things though. Many interpretations seems to implicitly (some explicitly) assume that the rich man is in hell for being rich....but does that mean that Lazarus is in heaven because he is poor? For lack of a better way to say it, does that mean that being poor is in itself a virtue? I don't think so. There must be more here. I am beginning to wonder, as many of you seem to be, if this whole text is about reliance. Lazarus laid at the gate of this man's house seeking grace...and got nothing. Well, to be fair he got some dogs licking his sores (which is such a nasty biblical detail). The rich man needed no grace because he had all he needed and then some. (again lots of details here about his wealth). Lazarus (his name means God helps doesn't it?) had to rely on God (I assume)just to stay alive everyday. Rich guy relied on himself. Well, in the end they both got what they had always wanted. Don't know if I'm going there or not yet but here's a scary sermon title, "What You Always Wanted" Thanks for letting me in on the conversation. Blesings, Don in Middle Earth
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:32:38 AM
KHC - I certainly hope the Salvation Army has changed in 30 years!! And we call ourselves Christian....revjaw
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:35:12 AM
I'm from a church that puts on a lot of "fund-raising" dinners; simple meals most of them. I once suggested we offer a free meal to the community some time - say, a soup supper. What I was met with was just under hostility, as though I had lost my mind....prefer to be anonymous
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:37:03 AM
Sally... Your "Why not say, "Father Abraham, send Lazarus to douse me with a bucket of water and put the flame out!" is hilarious!
It's good to see we can still have some humor and not take ourselves too seriously.
Here are some excerpts I either found or created. I am going to preach about Hell.
When I worked in the Auto Racing industry, there was a racing team that also marketed their own line of clothing. Perhaps you have heard of them, their brand was known as “No Fear”. One of their slogans was, “It’s not that life is so short”, it’s that you’re dead for such a long time”. For those who do not believe in Jesus Christ, this will indeed be their sad reality, the alternative of course, is eternal life with God the Father.
I read part of another article by Larry Dixon titled “Whatever Happened to Hell”. I found this man’s work on the subject of Hell to be both poignant and insightful. Here the author states that many Christians today are, in an alarmingly misguided fashion, attempting to “soft-peddle” the entire concept and reality of Hell. He says that many today believe that the fear of Hell is a terrible motive for moving others toward Christ. To counter this notion, he states that: “Upon hearing the rattle of a diamondback, who would stand and debate the persuasive power of absolute terror? If running for one’s life makes sense in the presence of a deadly snake, how should we respond to the soul-threatening reality of Hell? Here he makes his point, “If we neglect the bad news, then some people simply won’t listen to the good”.
When I went to get a cup of coffee the other day, the lady behind the counter asked me what my sermon would be on this week. I answered, “It’s about Hell”. To which she responded, “If someone goes to Hell, are they there forever?
Good question. We as Anglicans, according to the 39 Articles of Religion, the 22nd actually, do not believe in the Doctrine of Purgatory because it is "Romish" and has no basis in Scripture whatsoever.
As for eternal damnation, writing in the middle of the third century Saint Cyprian said:
“The pain of punishment will be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment, those who would not believe in eternal life.”
One of my favorite British comedians recently did a funny skit based on Dante’s Inferno. Rowan Atkinson, who you may recognize as Mr. Bean, or Lord Edmund Blackadder, plays the part of the Devil as he welcomes the various sinners into their new home.
At one point he says to an unheard question, “No sorry, there aren’t any toilets down here. I ‘m afraid if you didn’t go before you came you aren’t going to enjoy yourself very much. But then, the sign did say, Eternal Damnation… without relief!”
Rev NB
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:49:14 AM
it is somewhat weird that the rich man (despite the chasm) can still see heaven. (is this supposed to be additional torment?)
this is a text about perception, point of view, what we see and don't see depending upon our "seat".
in the world, both men sat at the table: one reclined at it, the other reclining below it.
then the situation is reversed, the perspectives change. in both places the "rich" are unable to see the "poor" and their plight.
...then God changes the perspective, makes a new table where all are seated and fed equally.
hum...
God's peace, christine at the shore
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:54:51 AM
Sally - The Elizabeth Smart thing is a tough challenge. After that whole event, had several comments about how "nuts" her family was to hire a street person. What do we do with that as Christians......? revjaw
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 10:56:46 AM
Did the rich man ignore (for the most part) Lazarus because he was uncaring or because Lazarus was ritually unclean, a sinner, etc. and the rich man feared becoming unclean himself; ie, what if he was just following the law the way he thought he was supposed to; actually thought he was being generous by giving crumbs without having to touch the guy....revjaw
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 1:24:01 PM
It is not wealth, but blindness, that was the sin in both the Pharisees ridiculing Jesus, and the rich man. It is in like that illustration we all know – the preacher who holds the silver dollar held before the stingy member’s eye, blocking his ability to see the cross, illustrating the problem. The same was true for the Pharisees in this chapter. That blindness explains the backhanded compliment paid to the shrewd manager – at least he recognized the urgency of his situation. The Pharisees, self styled “children of light,” can’t recognize God when he is right in front of him, nor get that the kingdom is at hand. Neither can the rich man. He can’t see God in Lazarus – right at his door. He also can’t see the big picture, the eternal picture. He doen’t know what time it is. He thinks his wealth is all there is. He thinks he has time. He can’t hear the voice of the prophets. Again, the children of darkness are sharper than he is.
The question hangs in the air – are they also sharper than his five brothers?
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 1:28:16 PM
Have you seen those Hungry Man commercials? The slogan for these super-sized, beer-battered TV dinners is, "It's Good To Be Full."
Sumptuous might be a bit of a stretch in reference to TV dinners, but we have become a nation of daily feasting.
Sally - I like Survivor - and commercials, too!
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 1:33:29 PM
Someone on the epistle page suggested that there are a lot of opportunities to "afflict the comfortable."
Such is true ... however I need to do it differently; I feel like I've done a good bit of afflicting lately - and I don't want to "Alienate the comfortable." Without the comfortable people (see the epistle page), I wouldn't have a church at all.
These two tie together so well (Gospel and Epistle)
Sally
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 2:41:53 PM
I have been hesitant to chime in lately as I think maybe I have over posted on the discussions board, which incidently has something of value here on the discussions of a phenomenon of "Hellhouses." Anyway, here goes my two cents:
First of all, $44 for four of you to eat? sounds cheap to me. Good Grief, I find my self living in a place that is rich beyond sense, famous and jet set are all over this coastal riviera in California. Yes I am bringing up the proverbial "it's relative, isn't it?" issue. The poor in our country are rich the world over. However it seems to me like many of you, rich bad - poor good is an over simplification.
I have ventured out on a Sermon topic titled "Making the Rich, Richer." and will concentrate on good, generous and benevolent stewardship of my gang. Seems to me there is a dual issue at stake here, "Where will you spend eternity?" and "What earthly good are you?" Frankly, my faith has brought me to the point, I am not going to worry about where i am going to spend eternity (can't earn that by anything I do here - yes I am a Lutheran anti-works justification dogma that includes excluding making even faith a good work. Besides I think Luther himself once made a comment that he didn't care where God would decide he would spend eternity, knowing God in this life was good enough for him. Ok if he didn't say this I am just helping out a rumor, but it seems pretty good to me!) I want to know "What earthly good am I (an you too)? I may be rich, I may not be rich, I may be poor, I may not be poor, but I sure as H*** do something now with what I got and while I got it to make life (mine and others) different and better. Ok enough on that before it no longer makes cents.
(pecial note to Coho: Your post and link stunned me. I am doing an adult series inspired by The Da Vinci Code and calling it "Christians In Culture" I stumbled upon Richard Niebuhr's "Christians and Culture" and gave the folks a synopsis which they loved! I will look over closely your link too and may have later comments on it.)
OMG
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 9:30:10 PM
A friend of mine, Kip... says... "The poor man was so poor he couldn't even afford to be buried..."
:?)
pulpitt in ND
Date: 9/21/2004
Time: 11:29:26 PM
The social Gospel theme is easily preached from this but for me the focus is in the last verse:
Verse 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
As an evangelist and student of apologetics, I find in this verse a key to the nature of unbelief. When presented with the testimonies of the Gospels, people still choose not to believe.
My faith totally hangs on whether or not Jesus came back from being dead. If he did, he was who he said he was and will do what he said he would. If he did not, then I am just a fool living out wish fulfilment. There are a couple of gentlemen on the discussion page who revel in the fact that I call myself a fool for Christ.
Jesus, in the last line of the pericope, says that people will not allow themselves to be convinced no matter what evidence there may be. Apparently from the first part of the story, the consequences of unbelief are not pleasant.
This text must have slipped past Thomas Jefferson because he left it in his version (though he cut out the resurrection of Jesus):
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffb10.html
~~Paul in Georgia
(Lifting up the Hensley family in prayer)
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 12:50:21 AM
"send Lazarus" !!!!!
Rich man is clueless about the new status of Lazarus. Lazarus is no longer send-able! Lazarus can no longer play fetch! The rich man is no longer in a place where he can give orders about Lazarus.
Storyteller
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 6:50:59 AM
I think I with the unsigned poster above.
The rich man never lifted and finger to help Lazarus. And Lazarus never lifts a finger to help the rich man. That seems to be the chasm which neither could cross-then and now.
This parable seems to indite both as without compassion for the other.
Ironically, Abraham, the father of faith, is pessmistic. Yet the hearers in the Lukan community would already have known that Jesus has risen from the dead.
And many still don't beleive it.
Pr.del in Ia
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 7:36:08 AM
The Chasm is key for me. Was it placed, or did it just happen? Is it productive, or destructive? I also focus on the fact each one did something. the one with no present income needed food, so reached for the crumbs. the one with satisfying access to needs, when he later does not, wants to try to warn his brothers.
shalom
bammamma
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 7:43:11 AM
Isn't it possible that the rich man wanted Lazarus sent because he was recognizable....not because he was servile? Surely the rich man's brother's had tripped over Lazarus a time or two....so he would be believable. I don't see where this text casts Lazarus as the rich man's servant. Don in Middle Earth
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 8:56:39 AM
I have trouble with the idea of finiteness in the context of religion. My concept of God is that he cannot be limited by time, space or even human choices. To me, death does not mark the end of anything except the end of mortality and its many errors. So you can understand my difficulty with any interpretation of this text that draws a line, saying God cannot or will not cross any chasms because he is limited by the time frame (after death), the space (eternity) and/or the poor choice made by the rich man. God transcends it all.
And to reply to whoever it was who mentioned earlier that these hell fire texts are erroneously touted as "we'll scare you into making right choices", I say that's exactly what they are. And, for many, that might work. But I think God is bitterly disappointed when he gets another person "on his side" who is there only for the purpose of escaping punishment. I think his preference is to have people want to walk with him, to want to adore and follow his Son. There are many members in my church who will try to correct their children and grandchildren with "do you want to end up in hell for being disobedient to me?" It's a crime and a sin against God when we do this to people, and I hate Biblical texts that can get interpreted to follow that line of thinking that hell belongs to those who were "bad" and heaven belongs to those who were "good", and God cannot do anything about it at any point after the last breath is taken. (Was Jerry Falwell Luke's editor? It smacks of his input.) God forgives even what we cannot imagine is possible to forgive. God can reach right down into our dead selves and breathe blessings and life right back in. And he does. Abraham might not have been forgiving of sins against Lazarus, but Jesus is another story. What would Jesus do with the rich man? The Jesus I know would never leave him to rot in torment no matter what his life choices had been. I serve a bigger Savior than that.
Maybe that's one of the points that I can bring into this text. The old Law was an eye for an eye, punishment for sin against one's brother, but the New Law in Jesus Christ would encourage Lazarus to pray for his tormenter and enemy and they would both be blessed for it - despite it being post-mortem.
KHC
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 9:14:01 AM
themes of social justice certainly resonate through out the passage, however, is that the thrust of the message?
coupled with the epistle lesson, if this rich man had been found to possess righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness would there be a problem here?
my sense is that it is the inability to look a person, a creation of God, in the eye and see the humanity and the divine within them that is the thrust of the message. it is also where the chasm comes from; when we talk about social justice, it is usually comes from an "us helping them" framework, and the relationship is often (not always) about sending something, giving something, or praying about something, rarely is it about searching out and finding the humanity and the divine in those who we consider "them" (or whatever label you prefer)...
we are all tormented and live in hell when we are unable to see beyond ourselves and notice life of others around us...
niebuhrian in va
off subject
OMG - i just completed teaching a series of adult classes on the same subject, mine was titiled "Pop goes the Saviour" and it encompassed, Niebuhr's five categories, a look at Christianity in pop culture, and a more in depth look at the portrayal of Chrsitianity in the Da Vinci Code (focusing on Mary and the Gnostic Gospels), it was fun and I learned a great deal, and so did the class, i think.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 9:15:21 AM
themes of social justice certainly resonate through out the passage, however, is that the thrust of the message?
coupled with the epistle lesson, if this rich man had been found to possess righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness would there be a problem here?
my sense is that it is the inability to look a person, a creation of God, in the eye and see the humanity and the divine within them that is the thrust of the message. it is also where the chasm comes from; when we talk about social justice, it is usually comes from an "us helping them" framework, and the relationship is often (not always) about sending something, giving something, or praying about something, rarely is it about searching out and finding the humanity and the divine in those who we consider "them" (or whatever label you prefer)...
we are all tormented and live in hell when we are unable to see beyond ourselves and notice life of others around us...
niebuhrian in va
off subject
OMG - i just completed teaching a series of adult classes on the same subject, mine was titiled "Pop goes the Saviour" and it encompassed, Niebuhr's five categories, a look at Christianity in pop culture, and a more in depth look at the portrayal of Chrsitianity in the Da Vinci Code (focusing on Mary and the Gnostic Gospels), it was fun and I learned a great deal, and so did the class, i think.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 9:34:30 AM
KHC,
You said, "but the New Law in Jesus Christ would encourage Lazarus to pray for his tormenter and enemy and they would both be blessed for it - despite it being post-mortem."
It's precisely the point here that Jesus DID NOT have Lazarus do so! So, should we blame a "Jerry Falwell Luke's editor" for leaving Jesus' original moral of the story now in our preaching? And doing so, are we in danger of making up stuff into the Word of God?
The Exegetical Police.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 9:47:09 AM
There is one difference between the rich man and Lazarus that I have not seen mentioned here- the rich man has no desire to change and Lazarus has "longing to satisfy his hunger." Even to the bitter end of this story, the rich man is still exactly who he was at the beginning... not even hell and death has changed him. Lazarus has been transformed into what he longed for.
I don't see this story as solely about rich and poor or better and worse. I see it as a contrast between what gives us satisfaction and what prompts us to longing.
TB in MN
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 10:01:48 AM
A quick observation...The rich man didn't just know there was a poor man at his gate, he knew him by name! (16:24 He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus..') How true this is for us too. We often think of the poor in a "those people" sort of way. But we know there are people in need in our communities and even in our own congregations, and we too know them by name. A little something more to chew on as I eat my modest, but filling lunch. Thank you all for your wonderful insights and the willingess to share them! Shalom, P2 in WI
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 10:41:02 AM
Maybe bammamma has got it. The chasm is uncrossible without the cross of Christ. WE cannot serve God and mammon. So, perhaps the question is, "what's in your wallet?"
SD Vicar
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 11:21:39 AM
Yes, I also like bammamama's idea. I will be using an image in my sermon (I think) that is the same idea. A friend of mine in high school painted his youth room with a mural that had a chasm with a huge cross across it, and flames coming up from the chasm. The cross was the bridge and then, very teeny at the end of the cross on the other side of the chasm, was Jesus, waving with arms outstretched.
Okay, it's simplistic theology and it's more black and white than I would like, but so is this text. Thanks for your insights already, Beth in Ga
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 12:22:48 PM
Beth in Ga, the image you shared of the Cross as the Bridge is an important one to me. Jesus waves us across despite our sinfulness. He has made it sufficiently wide and strong to support everyone and it blocks the way into the fire below, making it virtually impossible to drop down. We are safe because Jesus spanned the chasm with his own Cross, even the most self-centered and uncaring among us. Hallelujah.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 1:37:05 PM
I've noticed something in the South ...
they call him Lazareth.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 1:39:05 PM
Must be like Abe-nd-ego
Sally
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 1:39:37 PM
or nucular
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 1:52:21 PM
Sally and KHS...
Thank you for your insights...
I'm bothered by the dualistic approach of Heaven VS Hell in the world...
I'm not a firm believer of "HELL" or "SATAN" for that matter... so the "Devil and Hell" get very little airtime, ok, NO airtime from my pulpit. The idea that we are saved from HELL is not reason enough for me to preach the GOOD NEWS.
I don't like this passage because I think it echoes the Sunday School teachers I've had and heard of that put the fear of GOD in people. Surely, Jesus knew that power, TRUE power comes from UNCONDITIONAL LOVE... rather than "beating someone up with the B-I-B-L-E!"
Too many pastors and modern day Christians get stuck in the old stories... without putting their MINDS to it...
Granted, there IS evil in the world. The be-heading of another HUMAN BEING regardless of what country their from... is an abomination to God's love... still, evil happens.
I agree that there is something, MUCH to be said of loving our enemies... NOW... on earth. I'll let GOD do the judging of "who's in and who's out" when it comes to the "eternal home".
Still working on the angle... although I DO LIKE... Mike's spin... "That confession is not simply about some other-worldly locus, but (as Luther correctly noted) that Christ descended into the hell of our lives today. There, where the great divide between God and ourselves is ever present, Jesus becomes himself humbled by descending into the depths of our chasm—but not to bring us the judgment we deserve. He descends into our hell to bring us the enduring hope through his exaltation and resurrection from the dead!"
There are many chasms in our lives... I've been to my share of them as I know each of you have as well. Still, what keeps me proclaiming the GOOD NEWS... is the HOPE...
Sorry for the long post, I'm almost done...
My wife and I toured NYC last weekend 9/12-9/13... I was performing a wedding on 9-11 in Connecticut. We went to ground zero... Empire State Building, Central Park, we were on the Today Show... my wife shook Al Rokers hand, we took the Statten Island Ferry right past the Statue of Liberty... while in NYC we called a local UMC church and stored our luggage there while we toured. It was a Japanese American UM Church.
We met Howard... (not his real name)... seems Howard was living in California in 1942 when his family and friends were jailed because of their "heritage". A dark time for America that we have heard little about in our public school history classes.
The camp he was sent to was in Kentucky, when they were finally freed, he could choose between Chicago and NYC.
He told about how when he came to NYC... and saw the Statue of Liberty for the first time... he wept... because he felt for the very first time he was not judged different by the color of his skin or his Japanese heritage... he was an equal, and no one treated him any different.
How this relates to this passage from Luke's gospel I don't know... other than Howard was like Lazarus in that people looked past him...
God calls us to look in the eyes of a stranger with that unconditional love Howard found and Lazarus knew...
Thanks for listening with your eyes...
pulpitt in ND
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 2:05:00 PM
niebuhrian in va
Thanks for the very subtle but deep insight. I am with you totally. Like your sense of fun in titles too on the class. Would love to receive any source or resource materials you might want to pass on about the study on Culture. I have found that Niebuhr brothers keep "pop"ing up in my journey and keep thinking I should delve into them all the more even if they were Presbyterian! (Could it be double predestination?)
Since I am living among the very rich, I want to make the rich, richer (not guilty, bad, or whatever). If I can get them to see others not like them from their hearts, the money -charity- will come. I personally think we all need to 'dig' this text in a way that sermonizing does not come off like some 16th century indulgence and bring as many of our people into the 21st century world... good luck to you all! OMG
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 2:07:59 PM
I'm working with the title, "You Only Live Once," and comparing the sin of the rich man's gluttony (sumptuous feasts every day, and fine clothes) with today's "you only live once" phenomenon - revealed somewhat at the Emmy awards. "Who are you wearing?" is the common question.
It's not that it's BAD to wear nice clothes ... it's not that the antidote to this is to live, as one post-er said, an ascetic and austere life. Feasts aren't BAD ... there are many biblical feasts!
The problem is the value we place on these material values ... when they become ordinary, we stop seeing much else. The problem is, You only life ONCE - and that life lasts a lot longer than we think. And God DOES reverse fortunes.
There is no specific statement where Father Abraham says, "You should have taken care of Lazarus, so shame on you." or "You overlooked Lazarus all these years, so now you're being punished." Rather, the torment is the natural progression of the rich man's lifestyle.
Lazarus may not have had the opportunity to live a deeply spiritual life, but it doesn't matter because the rich man OUGHT to have had the opportunity and he placed his value in feasts and clothes.
thoughts ... hope it makes sense, my kids keep calling me!
sally in GA
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 2:27:31 PM
The rich man reminds me of most good church folks I know. In an evangelistic sence we are all supposed to be warning people, including our families, about the danger and/or rewards of eternity. The rich man says let someone else do it. Does he not think his brothers will listen to him? He obviously cares, at least a little bit, but not enough to plead that he be allowed to go and warn his brothers. Let some one else do it. "You do it, preacher, that's why we give you the scraps from our tables."
OOh that sounds bitter. Well, yeah, maybe a little, but that seems to be the rich attitude. Fisher in TN
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 2:45:35 PM
Nearly twenty years ago, back when CB radios were ther craze, my mentor told me his handle was "Pontificate" (Sorry for the spelling.) When asked why a good Baptist preacher would choose such, he told me that the word "pontificate" meant "Bridge builder" in the language from which it derives. Can anyone substantiate that for me?
It seems that the converstation has focused on Christ as the great bridge builder. I wonder, however, if this was the intent of Jesus. I do like all the comments about the rich man's sin being his "ignorance" of Lazarus.
I am struggling with this text. It seems to me that reversal of fortune is at the center of the story. Maybe Jesus is saying we need to be extra careful about assuming we are entitled to salvation, etc., just because we are church people.
Steve in NC
PS> Sally, Is there any other way to say Lazareth?
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 3:05:17 PM
Fisher in TN - there is a woman in my church who, in one breath (during the parsonage walk-through) bragged about her $400,000 home (yes, she told me the price) and in the next said how she "couldn't afford" to give money to the church and how the church can't afford some basic maintenance on the church (like the shed doors in the basement are practically rotted through because the leak is so bad ... the couches are worn out, doors are losing their veneer, cabinets don't close right, the den floor is torn up, the couch is worn out and broken down, and we won't go with the UGLY furniture complete with nasty-looking water stains). Hmmmm. It's hard to keep loving folks like that.
This same woman (above) who bragged about how she got some kind of federal assitance for medications. She laughed and said, "Me in a $400,000 house and getting assistance! hahahaha! But I worked for it; I deserve it. So many poor people don't even know about the programs out there and I'm not going to say anything, either. I want it for me." She was offended when I didn't affirm her (though I did keep my mouth shut, which I do believe is to my credit).
Then there's the woman who wouldn't donate a couch to the parsonage because it was "too good to put in a parsonage."
name withheld because my congregants know I come here and I don't want anyone checking up on me.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 3:07:18 PM
Steve in NC, Pontificate comes from the root word pontifex, which is Latin for Bridge builder. Pont/pons = bridge, facere = to build. Pontiff (pope) and all associated words come from it.
KHC
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 3:08:39 PM
OMG and niebuhrian in va,
I'm also thinking of delving into a Pop Culture kind of class (Love your title!) -- not just the DaVinci Codes, but also things like the Five People We Meet in Heaven -- probably a walk through Barnes and Noble or the local movie theater kind of thing -- maybe even go back to the original What Would Jesus Do book from ... gee, what, 60/80/close to a hundred years go now? Do people even realize that? Anyway, that's kind of a beginning thought for a class -- any ideas, suggestions, outlines, resources you'd be willing to share (things that didn't work as well, things you wish you'd included) -- it would be very helpful to a Still Rookie like me.
Thanks, FC
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 3:12:07 PM
In other words, yes, the preachers are often treated like the church gophers. And supposed to work miracles on no resources; people in $400,000 houses can't afford to give to "charity."
Still, we are servants living out a calling and not Trump's apprentices trying to score the next big salary job.
Sally
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 3:43:56 PM
In response to the crummy manse poster: better to have a house that nobody gets all upset about than a newly remodeled one they watch over like a hawk. In my newly redecorated former manse, they told me where to place my own furniture, how often to wash the windows, and the church's huge piano had to stay in the front hall because that's where they all remember it being for 6,000 years or so. Here, the house is dumpy, and so nobody is breathing down my back about my oak furniture in their walnut dining room.
Suggestion: start replacing things as a gift to the church. Instead of writing checks to the church for your tithe, spend it on the manse. It will be money they don't have to spend, it will improve your living conditions, and assuming your gift gets left there, it will be welcoming and inviting for the next pastor who shows up. That's what I 'm doing, and the church appreciates it. I'm checking with the IRS to see if it's tax deductible, too, but that's less important.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 4:49:49 PM
Steve in NC
You make me think about the growing interest and potential conflict of the difference between the Historical Jesus and the Christ of Faith. What did the Historical Jesus mean by this parable? How has the Christ of Faith (Church doctrine) interpret (reinterpret, twist, change) this parable? Which are we more likely to reveal in our own understanding and preaching? It might help to seperate the two distinctions.
In regards to the housing discussion and its relevance to the wealth/impoverishment of laity and clergy, when I came to my current call the median house price was $600,000! Shocked I entered into a equity share arrangement with my congregation (I own 52%). Needless to say, it was a bloody process to reach the agreement with some 'well meaning' congregants who didn't think the pastor should have a house like them (some suggested I drive in from a neighboring town some 40 miles away!). In three years the median price has doubled!! Now I know prices around the country have risen but think about that, from $600,000 to 1.2 million for a 45 year old house on .19 acres! Here is what is weird, had they insisted on the church NOT entering into a equity share and forced me to borrow and scratch out a living for three years I could have retired by now if I owned 100% ~ Maybe God doesn't want me to retire!:-) Anyway, I again state my angle that this text is not about rich/poor but something else, something more but then again maybe that is an apology for the Christ of Faith and not true to the Historical Jesus who I think called em as he saw them.
OMG
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 6:58:44 PM
I keep thinking of the chasm as starting in this life, not just in the afterlife. Think of the 800 plus people (as of Wednesday) who have died in Haiti, and the hordes waiting for water and food there, not having had anything for 3 days. That is a poor country. Yes there was death and destruction in Florida. But most people in Florida have insurance, and relief was brought in immediately. We are a rich country.
It's not that rich is bad and poor is good. Everyone should have the support the people of Florida are experiencing. And there were many good rich people in the Bible. Abraham was rich. Jacob was rich. Job was rich. Joanna followed Jesus and porvided for him from her own resources, which means she had money to spare.
The problem with wealth is the separation, the physical and psychological chasm that can form between rich and poor.
And rich people are in a dangerous/tempting situation. There is a temptation to think we don't need God or other people (and I say we because almost everyone who lives in the United States is rich). There is a temptation to selfishness and self-righteousness. Often we come across as haughty, and turn a blind eye to serious problems in other lands. Our actions in the world are often based on our own self-interest, rather than what is possible and right and good.
At the root, the message of the gospel is not about money. It is about God's love for us and God's call in our lives to repent and believe. And God calls both rich and poor to repent and believe. But if we really believe, it will have an effect on our entire lives, including our money.
As for the Elizabeth Smart thing, there are good and bad "street people", just as there are good and bad rich people. There are some corporate execs I wouldn't trust working in my home either.
thank you everyone for posting. DGinNYC
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 7:37:34 PM
Name-Withheld-to-ensure-impartial-judgment...
Why are you asking us to judge you? Are we to judge whether you have done enough to earn your salvation? Why are you so worried? Martin Luther used to worry that he had not confessed enough. You are worried that you do not give enough. Trust in God, for God is a God of mercy.
Name-Withheld-to-offer-peace.
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 7:42:31 PM
Hi, All,
I've been at convocation till now, so I'm catching up on all the posts. Thanks!
I also have confirmation this Sunday. I need to figure out how to use this text with eight students who are publicly affirming their faith (unless I choose another one).
I'm toying with, "The Time Is Now," or "Committing to Serve." Don't know yet, though.
Michelle
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 8:20:26 PM
Some of the comments reminded me of a column I once wrote, back in 1988. This is something of an abridged version, and I actually tied it to the Parable of the Good Samaritan in the column. But I thought it might be fodder here, too. After all, might not the preacher in this story be something of a Dives?
PastorBuzz in TN
"The Fellow, The Man, and Fellow Man"
While they didnÌt exactly walk by him, the people protesting "The Last Temptation of Christ" at the old Westown Theater were oblivious to the man standing 50 yards away on Kingston Pike.
But one fellow, who was on his way to buy a birthday present, noticed him. As a Christian, he was struck both by the crowd and the sign carried by the man: It was a variation of the many "Will work for food" signs he had seen in the past.
At an intersection, he turned in the opposite direction and drove on to complete his errand. He couldn't get his mind off the hungry man while in the store. It made him uncomfortable.
Upon leaving, the fellow thought, "I could go home the back way and avoid the man," but he couldn't. Something kept pulling him back to the man, and the crowd.
He drove to the mall parking lot, past the protesters and past the point adjacent to the hungry man.
The fellow walked back toward where the man stood. Closer now, he saw the man had a few days' growth of beard and two or three small bags beside him.
A red sports car had pulled up and the driver, a woman, was talking to the man. She left as the fellow approached and another car drove up. This driver, also a woman, handed the man a grocery bag with fruit and other foodstuffs.
The fellow walked to the man and learned he was from Nashville, on his way to North Carolina where he hoped to "just make a new start." He, like many others, had slept under an interstate bridge the night before. The man said he was 34 years old.
"What I really need right now is a place to clean up," the man said, seeming somewhat embarrassed by his appearance.
The fellow asked, "What about one of the missions?"
The man said while the missions were run by "good people," sometimes ruffians are encountered and on one occasion he even had his shoes stolen.
The fellow said he was hesitant to take the man home, having had a trying situation develop when he attempted to help out a stranger a couple of years before. Neither could he really afford to get the man a motel room for the night. Still, he felt there must be something he could do. Then, an idea came to him and the fellow looked back toward the group of protesting Christians.
The fellow told the man he would talk to his wife about helping the man out and left, walking toward the theater. The fellow thought if he and some of the protesters pooled some money, maybe enough could be raised to get the man a room for the night.
Near the theater, the fellow spoke to a reporter he knew and made his way to the preacher whose picture had run in the newspaper a day or two before. No one other than the reporter knew the fellow, but surely this preacher could help in taking up a collection.
"I'm here to preach," the preacher said in rejecting the fellow's idea.
He tried to persuade the preacher that it would be a "good witness" to others that Christians did more than protest against moral outrages, but the preacher stood his ground. He was there to preach.
The fellow explained that he, too, despised the movie and had even signed a petition, distributed petitions and made phone calls.
"You know, people say we do too much of this and not enough of this," the fellow said, pointing first to the crowd of protesters then to the hungry man. "I agree with you about the movie, but why can't we do both?"
"I understand your feeling, but I'm sorry. I'm here to preach," the preacher said.
The fellow left, discouraged.
All the ridicule he encountered at work about Christians having their priorities messed up was right before him, in the flesh.
The fellow walked back to where the man stood. The man looked at the fellow.
"Come on," the fellow said, going down to the street and picking up the man's bags.
"Where're we going?"
"I'm going to get you a room," the fellow said. ...
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 8:20:58 PM
Not citing anyone in particular...have you noticed the most helpful comments are usually the shortest? Perhaps that's good advice as we prepare our sermons as well!! Just kiddin' yall! Thanks for so much great interaction on the Word. Joy in Atlanta
Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 8:25:13 PM
I'm working on connection between Jeremiah's investing (actually redeeming) the field and the rich man/Lazarus parable. Something about godly investing, where we place not only our money but our hearts (as if there is a difference?) The outrageous use of our worldly goods, investing in the kingdom, investing in hope.
I see the rich man and lazarus parable connected directly to last week's verses on faithfulness. If we are not faithful with a little bit (worldy funds) then we will not be given the great riches (spiritual riches). Joy in Atlanta
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Date: 9/22/2004
Time: 8:44:02 PM
we are all, at the same time, part rich man and part Lazarus, wealthy and wounded, we have the opportunity to help bridge the chasms that we face between us should we choose to look out our windows and see who lies at the gate... who knows, we may look out and find that we lay there at the gate ourselves...
niebuhrian in va
FC and OMG-
I will look over my notes, but I won't see them until Sunday. my class was a five night series, that began with a night on "Christ and Culture", an examination of several articles i found when i googled christ and culture (with discussion based around the question, how does "x" article lift up culture so that it may be transformed by God?, we spent one night talking about the history of Mary of Magdala, and one night on the Gnostic Gospels and how Christianity would be different if they had been included. finally, we ended with a question and discussion about any of the weekly topics. I will try to remember to post my resource list on the discussion board this coming Sunday...
grace and peace...
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 1:29:17 AM
Knowledge is not the problem-it is true faith that leads to action that is the problem.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 4:21:07 AM
“Is it wrong to be wealthy” is not the right question. It is certainly not the question we find in our text today. The rich man was not condemned because he was rich. It is also not a question on quantity of our response – the Rich Young Ruler was told to give away all he had, Zacheeus was commended for giving away half. So we need a different question or set of questions
Here are some helpful questions I adapted from Sondra Wheeler, Wealth as Peril and Obligation, (p. 138 ff)
Questions about our freedom (wealth as a hindrance):
1. Are our hearts and lives free enough to hear God’s call as it comes to us, or are we too encumbered by our desires and possessions?
2. Are we free to serve and help others and live fully, or are we too restrained by the time and effort it takes to obtain and maintain what we own? Are we owners, or owned?
Questions about Worship (wealth as temptations to idolatry):
1. In what does our church trust, and where do we find our security?
2. How do we define ourselves and others? By occupation, social class, or family status?
3. What do we hope for in our lives? What do we desire? What do we pursue?
Questions about Justice (wealth as a means of oppression):
1. To what extent is your wealth a product of injustice or exploitation of others?
2. To what extent does your material prosperity rest upon or help to perpetuate unjust structures and institutions?
3. In what ways do you use social power your wealth has brought you to help and serve those less fortunate than yourself?
Questions about Care (wealth as opportunity to love):
1. Is the love for others to which we are called to expressed also by our use of wealth?
2. Do we manifest a unity of the body of Christ, or does our wealth create barriers?
3. Is the work of the church being accomplished to the degree that reflects the wealth we have?
I may conclude with these.
jc
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:06:42 AM
DG in NYC - I wasn't suggesting that all street people are "bad;" I was offering that as an illustration to caution us against delineating "good" and "bad" and from making broad assumptions about groups of privileged and/or unpriveleged people ... prettymuch what you just said.
Just want to vindicate myself.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:13:32 AM
Hi, Joy. Are you UM?
Sally
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:22:23 AM
My earlier comment wondering why the Rich Man didn't ask Father Abraham to send Lazarus to douse the flames altogether was originally intended as a joke, but I'm starting to wonder...
Y'know ... he never did set his sights very high, did he? Satisfied with what was in front of him ... a personal chef, designer clothes ... he didn't set his sights very "high" - perhaps an unreflected life. Now, in eternity, he only asks for a drop of water?
He must have known that this was eternal punishment, but the text doesn't say so specifically!
Am I throwing in a red herring?
Sally in GA
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:41:05 AM
No, Joy, I haven't noticed that shorter is necessariy better.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:50:37 AM
I have a baptism this week. I think the theme of the sermon will be to raise our children right from the start to be generous, thoughtful and to notice when there are social injustices that need to be addressed. Not because if they don't they're doomed, but because they separate themselves from the full calling God has laid before us - serving and loving God by serving and loving our fellow humans. "When you do unto the least of these, you do it unto me. When you do not unto the least of these, you do it not unto me." It's up to the parents and the church to teach love above possessions and compassion above self-importance.
KHC
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 7:01:36 AM
Sally said...
"Y'know ... he never did set his sights very high, did he? Satisfied with what was in front of him ... a personal chef, designer clothes ... he didn't set his sights very "high" - perhaps an unreflected life. Now, in eternity, he only asks for a drop of water?"
I like that... touche' touche' or in the words of Tom Smothers... touchy touchy...
Seriously, I like the fact that he thought he had it all, when he didn't.
I'm still bothered by the Hedes reference, am I the only one?
Please advise,
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 7:03:04 AM
This is an intro I am toying with. Comments?
- jc
In the 1830s, when the train travel was just developing, they began to design trains capable of 30 - 60 mph. This was an unheard of speed at that time, and some medical professionals warned people not to try to travel at that speed, for surely it would pull the breath right out of your body, they predicted. No one needs to travel at that speed.
I just returned from a trip on an airplane traveling at about 600 mph. We adjust to things, don't we? We get used to them, and now we are annoyed at the driver driving only 60 mph in a 65 mph zone (or even driving 65 in a 65 mph zone).
The same can be said about wealth. Normal, routine wealth in this country is a level of buying power unimaginable by our great-grandparents. It is a buying power reserved for only the very few back then (and on a world scale, very few today, actually). But we have adjusted. It does not feel like wealth. It feels to us like "getting by" and we have anxiety about affording college, health insurance and retirement filling our hearts and shaping our behavior. Even though we live like the Rich Man did, we don't have the social status the rich man did. I don't think most of us feel rich like the rich man did.
So we have a hard time connecting to this story, and translating it to ourselves. There is a gap there that makes this hard to preach. I can tell you all day long that you are rich, but I suspect that most of you don't feel rich. You feel average. You feel you are doing about what you should be doing as a citizen in this country, and about what you should be doing for your children to give them the advantages they need to have a fighting chance.
So, where are we in this story, really?
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 7:24:09 AM
pulpit in nd
no you are not the only one who has trouble with the hades reference. i refuse to even go there because hell in the sense of eternal damnation doesn't make it on my theological radar screen. i can't preach what i don't believe and i won't perpetrate the idea that there is such a place. i believe GOD keeps the door open between us and GOD always and forever because of the CROSS.
signed, still sinful after all these years of knowing better, still loved and welcomed by JESUS.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 7:46:00 AM
signed, still sinful after all these years of knowing better, still loved and welcomed by JESUS.
Thanks, but I'm feeling the need to address the "Heaven vs Hell" theology which this text seems to be saying. It has done more to erode the fabric of the church than all the confirmation drop outs combined. I do appreciate the wisdom of those of you who have confirmed that this passage is just going alone with the belief of the day... that if your family prospers God has blessed you... and if your family suffers, it's because of something you left undone.
What am I saying? Just that, I think sometimes our folks don't fear HELL like some of us "preacher types" would like them to believe. Our people don't want a theology that has black and white divisions... for they have seen that life does NOT always make sense and faith is something we live out each day.
Bad things happen, to not just bad people but good people too...
"The Devil will get you..." seems to be preached louder than God's unconditional love. That's what I'm bothered by... God's GRACE is sufficient in my life and theirs.
Still struggling with what to say... and "It's Thursday, but Sunday's coming!" ;?)
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 8:02:08 AM
Comment: It seems appropriate to use a quote from Winston Churchill - 'You make a living by what you get - you make a life by what you give.' Perhaps it's what is not given, or thought of, that counts in this story. Just a thought. Sue from england.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 8:12:19 AM
Hell to a first century indvidual would most likely look like thirst and heat what would our hell look like today?
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 8:30:20 AM
I usually don't get involved in the debates, but as I said in my earlier post, this text is clearly saying that Lazarus was in hell, Hades, the flames, whatever. So I feel like if I'm going to preach on this text, that needs to be addressed in some way, especially here in this town where hell and burning appears on every church sign.
An earlier poster said that he/she thought it was all about the ending, and I'm starting to think that too. Yes, there is burning and torment, but there will be a bridge soon made of the cross.
Not there yet, but getting there, I hope!
--Beth in Ga
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 8:32:23 AM
As for heaven and hell - I think it can be dismissed by saying this text does not have theology about heaven or hell in mind. It is a story that has been around the middle east for hundreds of years, and in the Jewish imagination for quite some time. Jesus is simply using current material. The text is not trying to describe hell, and should not be used to make any systematic theology about the afterlife. So that should be a subject for another sermon. Except to give the people permission to put down their hell questions this morning and pick up their money ones.
jc
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 8:48:02 AM
The heaven and hell issue doesn't seem to be the real issue in the text. We may have people in our pews for whom that is a big issue. Focussing on heaven and hell can also become a way to distract ourselves from any real issues in our lives. Brian Stoffregen http://www.crossmarks.com/brian/brian.htm adds an interesting direction to take. It seems pretty obvious that the hungry need feeding, the naked need clothes, the homeless need homes, etc... But how do we help the rich? His proposal is we give rich people ways to give. We provide opportunities to reach out. We don't just scold them, we help them take the step. Maybe teach them how to make a great roast beef sandwich to give to Lazarus? A little mayo, lettuce, cheddar, mmm mmmm. Seriously, how in our congregations are we helping people not be like the rich man? That's the direction I will take.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 8:48:09 AM
The heaven and hell issue doesn't seem to be the real issue in the text. We may have people in our pews for whom that is a big issue. Focussing on heaven and hell can also become a way to distract ourselves from any real issues in our lives. Brian Stoffregen http://www.crossmarks.com/brian/brian.htm adds an interesting direction to take. It seems pretty obvious that the hungry need feeding, the naked need clothes, the homeless need homes, etc... But how do we help the rich? His proposal is we give rich people ways to give. We provide opportunities to reach out. We don't just scold them, we help them take the step. Maybe teach them how to make a great roast beef sandwich to give to Lazarus? A little mayo, lettuce, cheddar, mmm mmmm. Seriously, how in our congregations are we helping people not be like the rich man? That's the direction I will take.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 9:01:15 AM
I see by the Interpreter's Bible Commentary that Hades was originally a place where both good and bad went while they awaited final judgment...
it also mentions that the Rich Man still regarded Lazarus as being available to serve his peronal needs... "Send Lazarus"...
Luke 16:24 Page 317, Volume IX, Luke/John
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 9:05:57 AM
"That's the direction I will take."
I appreciate your post, I really like the way you don't "BASH" the rich in our pews... but rather... as you say...
". It seems pretty obvious that the hungry need feeding, the naked need clothes, the homeless need homes, etc... But how do we help the rich? His proposal is we give rich people ways to give. We provide opportunities to reach out. We don't just scold them, we help them take the step. Maybe teach them how to make a great roast beef sandwich to give to Lazarus? A little mayo, lettuce, cheddar, mmm mmmm. Seriously, how in our congregations are we helping people not be like the rich man?"
Thanks again,
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 9:10:52 AM
jc said... "Except to give the people permission to put down their hell questions this morning and pick up their money ones."
Good call...
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 9:41:43 AM
If anyone reads this far here is my contribution. Without hell what would make the rich man finally see Lazarus? Whatever hell was it made him more aware of the suffering of this man whom he daily stepped over. Caution!!!! Be careful of images of crosses with fire burning under them. THere are groups that have misused that concept. We don't want to step over Lazarus with painful imagery. gen
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 9:52:23 AM
i was going to say something, then i wasn't, so now i am before i waver again...
i would hope that people would put down their hell questions and their money questions and raise up questions about humanity and our equality in our createdness...
i will briefly talk about hell by mentioning that i don't believe in the literary and romanticized version that is most often heard, but that i do believe it is real in that hell is the felt separation from God and others, and to that end we all have experienced the loneliness, frustration and torment that "hell" can bring...
giving money is great, but it is ordinary, it is in giving of ourselves and seeing out the other persons window that the truly extraordinary happens
niebuhrian in va
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 10:54:28 AM
I think the point of the story is the management of what one has. The 'rich man' has enough to supply his needs, probably most of his wants and provide for the comforts of life and then some. It has a kind of the 'me generation' feel to it.
For me I don't literally have the homeless or poor folks sleeping on the front steps of the apartment or the steps of the church.
What I do have is opportunites to contribute to, or participate in hurricane relief, and various other programs that will benefit those who are in need of assistance.
Lazarus was clearly in need of help, and a steward who had 'more' to work with noticed him, but failed repeatedly to serve adequately. The message is that he was called to account for his stewardship, was found negligent, and was'fired.' (ala Donald Trump )
Being welcomed into an eternal home is an point interseting as well.
The rich man seems to wish that Lazarus could return the favors that he had given to Lazarus - I get that all the help amounted to was to just enough to keep the Lazarus from dying on his front steps.
Perhaps it is a bit of joke that the poor man's character is named Lazarus. Art and life---
Daniel in OR
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 10:55:23 AM
I think the point of the story is the management of what one has. The 'rich man' has enough to supply his needs, probably most of his wants and provide for the comforts of life and then some. It has a kind of the 'me generation' feel to it.
For me I don't literally have the homeless or poor folks sleeping on the front steps of the apartment or the steps of the church.
What I do have is opportunites to contribute to, or participate in hurricane relief, and various other programs that will benefit those who are in need of assistance.
Lazarus was clearly in need of help, and a steward who had 'more' to work with noticed him, but failed repeatedly to serve adequately. The message is that he was called to account for his stewardship, was found negligent, and was'fired.' (ala Donald Trump )
Being welcomed into an eternal home is an point interseting as well.
The rich man seems to wish that Lazarus could return the favors that he had given to Lazarus - I get that all the help amounted to was to just enough to keep the Lazarus from dying on his front steps.
Perhaps it is a bit of joke that the poor man's character is named Lazarus. Art and life---
Daniel in OR
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 10:56:23 AM
Name Withheld - please tell me you're making all that up......! revjaw
On another note....are we all assuming Abraham didn't send Lazarus to warm the brothers? I mean it doesn't actually say he didn't send him, it says he is doubtful it will do any good. revjaw
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 12:01:05 PM
Why doesn't anybody consult God? Why is Abraham the final authority about what happens to whom and what goes on after death? Is he supposed to represent God here? Where is God in this parable?
KHC
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 12:07:00 PM
Where is Abraham anyway? Is he in heaven? If so, did he accept Jesus in order to be saved and go to heaven? Or is there a different take on heaven here - a Jewish concept of heaven?
I'm not trying to be trite.... these questions jumped out at me when I was re-reading the text.
KHC
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 12:08:16 PM
For those of you going with the sermon theme of the cross of Christ bridging the great divide between God and humanity, there's a great song by Grant Cunningham and Matt Huesmann called the Great Divide. The group Point of Grace recorded it several years ago. I don't want take the space to post the lyrics here, but if you want them email me at erpcpastor@gci.net and I'll send them to you.
Great discussion, again, everybody!!
rev piper in AK
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 1:24:41 PM
In my ponderings on these passages, the key difference between Lazarus and the rich man (who, as JRW in OH points out, is not named) is not their economic status (it's not always the economy), but that Jesus knew Lazarus (by name) and did not know the rich man (Matthew 7:22-23; 25:1-12; Luke 13:25-27). The issue is not how much money you have, but does Jesus know you?
I would say that those who know Jesus will see the "Lazaruses" at our gate for there is no doubt that He leads us to such people to open our hands to them. We have a habit (and it can be a self-destructive one) of getting down on ourselves saying we never do enough. It's true that there's always room for improvement, but let's be fair to ourselves - Christians have done very will when it comes to caring for the poor, often at the risk and cost of their own lives. The church is not totally negligent here. More must be done, to be sure, but let's not be totally down on ourselves.
I feel the call here is to know Jesus and have Him know you. Then, as He imparts His life into you, your hands will easily open to the needy.
JG in WI
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 1:29:57 PM
KHC
If I can give an evangelical's perspective to your questions, the Bible never says we are saved by "accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior." (I know, for some of us evangelicals, that area in quotes often sounds like a mantra.) The Bible says we are all saved by grace through faith. Therefore it is said that Abraham "believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6)
In keeping with the passage, "This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men." (Titus 3:8)
JG in WI
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 1:41:57 PM
I've got a desk calendar on my office desk...
"Words That Shaped Our Souls - Voices - Daily Wisdom for a New Century" compiled by Anne Christian Buchanan and Debra K. Klingsporn
The "devotion for today" September 23, 2004 reads...
"If only it wre all so simple! IF only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
Alexander Solzhenitsyn 1918-? Exiled Russian novelist and historian
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 2:29:27 PM
I don't believe Lazarus ever was in servitude to the rich man. He sat at the rich man's gate hoping to obtain some crumbs.
So how can the rich man be expecting Lazarus STILL to serve him?
Michelle
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 2:51:47 PM
I don't believe in a literal hell (for the spiritual realm is not the same with the physical realm), but there must be a real hell (for which flames and darkness and the grinding of teeth are all physical metaphores of the real unimaginable thing).
If there is no hell, or if the bridge/cross really available so that I can get back to God's love any time I want to, then thank you very much, I would go on with my half-hearted, mediocre so-called-Christian life. Because it is easier to hold on to this life (what I know and understand for real), rather than loving a God (I don't see) and following a Jesus (I don't know for sure).
If there is no hell, then these is no heaven either. For a God who would not punish the wicked, would not be trustworthy to offer any eternal reward to anyone. After all, if I do submit myself to the judgement of the man-made legal court and expect some justice out of their system, I would expect a higher and more absolute justice from their creator.
If there is no hell, then Jesus is a liar, because here (and many other passages in the gospel) he talked about it as if it really existed.
May be that's why many churches are dying a slow death.
A Moaner.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 3:00:21 PM
A Moaner,
It does not follow that if there is no hell there is not a heaven either. There does not have to be an opposite for everything.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 3:10:16 PM
In response to the civil court vs. the heavenly court. God set up a system of law by which humans can punish human behavior. Fines, confinement, death. The guilty pay the price while on earth. I think that is enough for God's sense of justice. Then there is forgiveness. Bring the person back into the fold. They don't have to bear the onus of their sins forever. Especially since Jesus paid the price for their eternity.
The Great Judge has passed the verdict and the verdict is guilty. Then he passes sentence and the sentence is freedom. It isn't license to go and sin again but to realize who sprung you and why.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 3:28:25 PM
This Sunday we will be using the Litany for the Thanksgiving of the 30th Anniversary of the Ordination of Women. I have been thinking of the women who sat at the gate for years, hoping to be asked in, to sit at the table as equals. I am remembering the people of color who sat at the gate for years, waiting and hoping to be asked in, to sit at the table as equals. I am thinking of the gays and lesbians, cross-gender people and others who are still waiting at the gate - hoping to be asked in, to sit at the table as equals. I am thinking of our children, some of whom sit at the gate and look at us at the table and wonder why they are told to be quiet, to go to their own service - instead of being invited to the table. So I am wondering who else is waiting at the gate?
Hungering - yearning - starving - shriveling up - need not all be connected to food.
Anyhow - this is where I am at the moment.
Rev G in Fla (where even the rich are struggling with their losses from the hurricane trilogy - even after reading my own insurance policy - it seems to say more about what is not covered than what is covered. Some people have lost everything that relates to their lives - people ahve lost jobs because the businesses have been blown away)
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 3:29:07 PM
Michelle, I agree with you. Lazarus wasn't a servant, he was a hopeful man who needed something and figured he knew where to go get it. I liken it (sort of) to the person who needs a new car and writes to the (_________) Show on TV and gets no reply whatsoever. Who cares that this person needs a way to get to the store or the doctor's? If he had gone to another rich person's house instead, he may have found it to be like writing to the Oprah show about his car needs.
Besides, wasn't a master required to supply the basic needs of his servants? Too bad it didn't apply to beggars.
Which brings me to another story. I was reading a story about a letter written to the editor of some paper. The writer had come to town for a viewing of the Passion of Christ. When he and his church group left the theatre, there was a man, unshaven and dirty, who was asking for handouts. The writer of the letter was appalled, and wanted to know why the city would allow a person like that to bother nice people. His closing remark was that he got on the bus with his church group and they prayed for that man. But he asked again why this man was allowed to be there in such a nice little town bothering Christians on a trip to see a Christian movie.
I swear to you this is what I read.
KHC
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 3:32:17 PM
Rev G in Fla, the Presbyterian Church (USA) will soon celebrate 50 years of women as ordained clergy and 75 years as ordained Elders. Thank you for bringing that into the mix. Excellent!!!
KHC
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 3:40:27 PM
RE: rich = blessed, poor = not blessed: This Sunday is a service of wholeness and healing - we invite individuals forward to be anointed with oil and to have elders/pastors lay on hands and pray for them (and we call ourselves presbyterian!).
I'm also using Psalm 91, about God protecting, rescuing, healing, etc., the faithful, to the point where angels prevent stubbed toes. So why are some people healed and others not? Are they not faithful enough, don't they trust enough? Is it because, like Lazarus, they have to wait until after death for their reward?
A friend of mine (a pastor) told me of a painful experience he had shortly after they lost a child to death - visiting another church, he heard the preacher talk about how God had healed/blessed the preacher because he had such important work to do in this world. Didn't his daughter have important work? Why wasn't she blessed/healed?
A close friend once wrote to me of how much God had blessed her with easy pregnancies/deliveries - so what am I, chopped liver, with my difficult delivery/c-section? Guess I'm not blessed.
Of course, I know better, but that's how it feels sometimes.
All I can fall back on is that in that same Psalm, God promises to answer us when we call, to be with us in trouble, and show us God's salvation.
Surely, Lazarus was a man of faith and Dives was not - Dives depended on his wealth, Lazarus on God.
I'm not done struggling with all this.
But I may also touch on the Beatles song (what's the title?) with the line "Buy! Buy!" says the sign in the shop window. "Why? Why" says the junk in the yard.
We need wholeness in our bodies, minds and spirits, to have Christ the tailor darn the tears in the fabric of our lives. Lazarus was whole, Dives was not.
LL in L,PA
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 4:57:34 PM
When I think of the poor Lazarus, I wonder why, in the parable, he never directly asked the wealthy man for anything. I've encountered many poor individuals who believe that everyone who has more than them owes them something. I don't think this is the intent of the parable.
I believe the point needs to be made that according to Jewish thought at the time, the wealthy man had found favor with God and Lazarus had not.
Jesus came to bring wholeness to the shattered, love to the loveless and hope to the hopeless.
The story teaches us that even the poor can expect to find blessings with God and that God's priorities may not always match ours.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 4:58:13 PM
When I think of the poor Lazarus, I wonder why, in the parable, he never directly asked the wealthy man for anything. I've encountered many poor individuals who believe that everyone who has more than them owes them something. I don't think this is the intent of the parable.
I believe the point needs to be made that according to Jewish thought at the time, the wealthy man had found favor with God and Lazarus had not.
Jesus came to bring wholeness to the shattered, love to the loveless and hope to the hopeless.
The story teaches us that even the poor can expect to find blessings with God and that God's priorities may not always match ours.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 5:57:27 PM
there is no mercy ,compassion,and pity after judgement.
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:09:14 PM
I'm wondering what warning the rich man would have sent to his brothers.
Your thoughts, please.
DF in TN
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 6:49:19 PM
Even Moaner got a weak point out of the three arguments for the reality of hell, the other two are still holding up pretty good. I like the point about Jesus is a liar if hell wasn't real. I just look up on the word and Jesus had a lot to says about the subject.
Are we soften the message because we afraid that we are turning the people off? Do we pick and choose our own personal theology despite what was revealed through the text? If so, then are we making the same mistake with other prophets at Jeremiah's time? Jeremiah's message was that of judgement and not love as people hoped for. If hell was mis-presented, and mis-understood, then we should wrestle with it once again, even at the cost of being misunderstood and persecuted.
Even if we got it wrong and hell is not real after all, what do we have to lose in the large scheme of things? But on the other hand, if we got it wrong and never warn the people about the reality of hell and it turn out to be true; what kind of effects would that be on the people we minister to? (Yes, I know that God is big enough and can handle anything, but that's no excuse for not carrying our own responsibility).
Even if we do not know for certain 100% if a vaccine is effective or not, but willing to subject our own infants through the pain of vaccination to avoid the great risk of our own negligence, shouldn't we seek to shield our flock from a greater risk?
Even if the secular journalists follow a standard of "fair reporting" and try to cover both sides of the story, should we have the same responsibility to tell about the reality of hell, even if it's not our theology (and then we could argue for its non-existence afterward)
Let's us be fair in exposing what the text actually said, and not building on what's not there...
Coho, Midway City.
(I should be grounded for venting, I should go sit in my corner until next week!)
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 7:13:08 PM
HELLLLLLPPPPPP!!!!!
Can we get some contributions in the Jeremiah page?!!!!
Storyteller
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 10:05:59 PM
One last post for... tonight...
"I was talking to my 'parishoner'... and asked her if she believed in "hell" to which she replied... "I thought so... I mean, what would prevent us from being bad 'all the time'..."
I think too many people think that if we didn't have a place to be scared "FROM"... we would all be "horrible" sinners ALL THE TIME!
I don't know about the rest of you, but I personally feel better when I'm "better" to others... I don't believe that if there is no hell then I will somehow be this horrible human being.
As a Christian, I've "chosen" to loves others as Christ first loves me, and you, and her, and him...
Enough for today...
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/23/2004
Time: 10:16:07 PM
Sermon title...
I can't resist... I'm tired... How about this?
"Good to the last Drop?"
or
"When the Drip wants a Drop!"
or
"Rich Man, Poor Man" or (PC version)"Rich One, Poor One"
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 6:07:18 AM
Here's another real-life illustration, for whoever wants it...
A homeless man - obviously mentally ill - came to our church office door one day asking for a blanket. I said we didn't have a blanket. I asked if he had a home, he said 'no." I asked him to wait and I called several numbers for shelters. He emphatically did NOT want to go into Atlanta (a bus-ride away) but wouldn't say why. So, I found him some others, but when I called them, they said he'd have to call himself. He thanked me for the numbers and left! I don't know why he didn't just want to use our phone. Anyways, I'd previously suggested he ask the fire house next door to see if they had a blanket for him.
He came back that night, and as we were going in to choir practice, we saw him. The choir members were kind of "freaked," but I talked to him and asked if he'd called the people I'd referred him to. He said, "no. I wanted a blanket and I got one." I said, "I don't know if I can help you, then. You can stay here for the night (it was raining) but this is not a good shelter." I offered to help call the Salvation Army camp and he said, "No." and seemed irritated.
The choir members had left by that point, and to this day I haven't told ANYBODY I let the man sleep in our breezeway up against the door and out of the rain. If the trustees knew about it, they'd have a COW!
It turns out he taught me a lesson. He wanted a blanket, he found a blanket. He didn't want a shelter, he didn't want a home, he didn't want a half-step house... he wanted a place to crash outside out of the rain. I've never seen him since. It was kind of presumptuous for me to think he'd want a life other than the one he was living, mentally ill or not.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 6:18:48 AM
jc said "The text is not trying to describe hell, and should not be used to make any systematic theology about the afterlife." ...
on the other hand, I suspect that many people sitting in the pews today (at least those logging pew time in the church i serve) are there only because they're afraid of Hell.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 6:32:43 AM
Rev G. in Fla said, " I am remembering the people of color who sat at the gate for years, waiting and hoping to be asked in, to sit at the table as equals."
If I were one of those people, I might have decided "the Hades with it; I'm carving out my own path. I don't need to wait for white folks to decide I'm a whole person."
Sally in GA
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 6:36:17 AM
sorry ... I was swamped yesterday and didn't get back to read the posts! Y'all were *tssss* hot yesterday.
Another response: Pulpitt - I always love your posts; and I especially loved the devotion you posted.
The chasm, which I started this week curious about, is not simply an eternal "great divide" but the chasm we must really tend to is the chasm in our own hearts.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 6:38:50 AM
KHC - this is my eyes bugging out! and my jaw dropping to the ground.
-S
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:09:28 AM
Sally Thank you for that story! It illustrates exactly what I'm been saying. Your insightful discovery brought tears to my eyes.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:12:41 AM
Posts that tell others how wrong they are infuriate me. Please stop doing that. Some of you have a very bad habit of correcting the faith of others who are not asking for theological direction from you. They are stating what they believe, and since none of us will know the whole truth until some later time, you need to understand that you are not the purveyor of all correct theology. State your own beliefs and let others do the same without marking their papers with big red X's.
PastorLib
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:20:09 AM
Having grown up reciting the Apostle's creed, and saying that Jesus descended into hell before he ascended into heaven, how does that fit with the idea of a chasm that can not be bridged? I originally had entitled my sermon: No Hope in Hell, but have sinced changed it to "the Opportune Moment" from a quote that talks about the idea that at any moment we can change our lives - which one do will we choose. A second thought - wouldn't Jung remind us that maybe Dives and Lazarus are really the same person - there is good and bad in us all and how we live makes heaven or hell - to me that means being connected to God or not being connected (ie, more spiritual and spacial) Deke of the North
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:24:30 AM
Great posts here--especially the Solzhenitsyn quote. I'm also focusing on the chasm in our hearts that we can't seem to bridge or heal by ourselves. I actually kind of went that way on the lost coin, too--
I was thinking of most recent cottage meeting I did as a new pastor in this place, and how in this last one the common thread was that most of them were raised Baptist. And nearly to a person, they said that as kids, even little kids, they were scared to death of the hell that surely awaited them. (I'm not putting this all on the Baptists; that's just how their stories went.) In the 12 step program, you know that the pain of what you used to do and the fear of repeating it is a great motivator. A healthy fear of what really can hurt you is a good thing, but if that's the only motivation, it can't be too fulfilling. Just running from instead of walking toward. So whether hell is a place of punishment or our own creation by choice, it's something to avoid. But that is only the first step in moving toward fullness of life.
Laura in TX
Laura in TX
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:45:04 AM
From what I understand, this is not heaven and hell - this is Hades; a place where all the dead went to await their eternal "placement"???
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 8:19:40 AM
Coho,
Although I don't endorse it someone this past week said to me on another subject, "God would rather be misunderstood than watered down!" Hmmm. Sounds like hell to me!
Also, thanks for the "laugh" about the secular journalist! Too funny! That they follow a standard of fair reporting! Where do you live? Or should I ask what era do you live in? You have heard of Dan Rather haven't you? Ok for those of you on the other side shall I throw in Rush? I hope you realize I am just "joshing" you. Shall I join you by going to a corner of the room myself?
Whoever wrote about the Jungian idea that we could be both persons in the parable I think hit upon at least a modern interpretation which also allows us to extrapolate something positvie out of the text to change our attitudes and change our behaviors. It works for me.
OMG
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 8:56:16 AM
If we are wondering who "we" are in this story, I think from a literary standpoint, we are the five brothers, who have yet to decide whether we will hear the law and the prophets and the one who was raised from the dead. We are not the rich man and we are not Lazaraus. The story in Luke was aimed at the Pharasees (like the punch line of the older brother in the Prodigal son was too). But in the larger sense, it is aimed at us who are still living and still choosing. Who will we hear?
Its a punch line, you know:
A priest, a rabbi and a Baptist minister walk into a bar, and the bar keep looks up, eyes them and says, "What is this - a joke?"
jc
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 9:12:22 AM
Sally wrote: "If I were one of those people, I might have decided "the Hades with it; I'm carving out my own path. I don't need to wait for white folks to decide I'm a whole person."
Sally, I LOVE your attitude, and it might just work in this era. However, in the 1950's, non-white folks might have found their whole persons dangling from a rope for carving out their own paths. It took the National Guard or US Army or somebody to allow them to go to school in Arkansas. By the late 1960's, civil rights and equal rights were becoming household words, even if many shunned the whole idea and held onto prejudice. Somebody had to beat down the thicket in order for rights to be extended to all - well, at least on paper. Thank God for the pioneers, no matter what area of life. You would have made a terrific pioneer.
KHC
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 9:18:57 AM
The late Bible Scholar William Barclay in his commentary on Luke writes: "The sin of the rich man was that he never noticed Lazarus, that he accepted Lazarus as part of the landscape, that he thought it was perfectly natural and inevitable that Lazarus should lie in pain and hunger while he wallowed in luxury. The sin of the rich man was that he could look on the world's suffering and need and fell no answering sword of grief and pity; that he looked at a fellow man (person), hungry and in pain, and did nothing about it. His was the punishment of the man who never noticed." Bill in Fairbury, Nebr.
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 10:30:21 AM
KHC - on the other hand, a few DID carve out their own paths... at least in the United Methodist Church!
From the Methodist Episcopal Church, Richard Allen formed the African Methodist Episcopal Church - in the late 1800's. Why? Because when freed slaves began arriving in (was it Virginia?) in a significant number, all of a sudden the ME church decided that black folks needed to sit in the balcony. Richard Allen DID say "The Hades with THIS" and formed the AME churhc - from there came the CME and the AME Zion churches.
I'm serving a church that was formed by the first ordained woman (caucasian) in the North Georgia Conference. And in 2006, we, too, will celebrate 50 years of full ordination rights for women.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 10:46:33 AM
We have all that we need. We have all that we need to live godly lives. There is nothing that we are waiting for; nothing that we lack. The testimony of both Testaments is sufficient to tutor us in righteous living. Sadly, however, as Jesus said, some will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead! (Verse 31.)
Safiyah Fosua
www.gbod.org - The United Methodist General Board of Discipleship website - "Preaching Helps."
submitted by Sally in GA
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 10:48:32 AM
Sally, I thank God for Richard Allen and all like him.
KHC
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 10:56:34 AM
The point of Pentecost is "We DO have all we need ... will we acknowledge, listen to, make use of it or will we turn a blind eye, ignore, or dismiss it?"
and, on a personal note ... (can you tell I'm doing laundry and sermonizing today? I keep coming back to my DPS friends) ... don't you sometimes feel like you're living out the old adage, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Ministry feels like this to me. And, you can put all the pressure you want on the leaders, they can't make anyone drink. I can't make anyone believe in the Gospel. I can't make anyone see that their church is dying by their own hands. I can't make anyone believe that there is an antidote to this death. And I can't preach enough to encourage anyone to hunger and thirst after righteousness because I can't convince anyone they're hungry and thirsty if they don't think they are. If I were an encyclopedia salesperson, I'd just go on to the next house figuring this one just wasn't interested.
So, the dilemma is: do I spend my time trying to get the folks interested? No, that's fruitless. Or do I take more drmatic actions? And that's got its own set of problems - people leave and for awhile you're in seemingly worse shape than when you started. It's then that the congregation asks for a new pastor, and the old guard comes back and the cycle starts again.
Can you tell I'm a bit discouraged today?
Sally
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 11:45:49 AM
Look at the Luke passage in relation to 1 Timothy 6:6 - 19; especially verse 9 which says "But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction."
The Luke passage isn't about heaven and hell or hades. It is really about attitude! It isn't our wealth (or lack of it) that saves or damns us. It is our attitude toward that wealth. The Timothy passage goes on to say, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, . . ."
It wasn't the rich man's money that damned him. It was his calousness toward the plight of Lazarus and others in his community that he could have changed if he had possessed a different attitude.
What we do with our money means more than how much money we have. I have often encouraged people to calculate the percentage of their income that they give to the church or even to benevolent causes. They are usually surprised that they don't give as great a percentage as they thought. That's what happens when we think of dollars and not percents.
Percentage of income as a measure of giving focuses on attitude toward God and our possessions than a dollar amount. How many actually give in excess of 10% of their income to worthy causes. I venture to say very few.
Here is a great story I read somewhere long ago.
There was an rather weathy, lonely old man who was drawn into a spiritual renewal service in a neighboring community by the beautiful music he heard. During the course of the service the speaker asked for testimonies on how God had blessed individuals present.
The old man rose and told a story of how when he was a very young boy, he had worked all day delivering groceries. At the end of the day he received a shiny silver dollar for his labors. On his way home he was drawn into a spiritual renewal service much like this very service by the beautiful singing. He continue to tell of his internal struggle when it came time for the offering. All he had was the shiny silver dollar and he struggled with himself and finally placed it in the offering plate. He continued to say that from that day forward God had blessed him and he had become a very wealthy man with many possessions and money enough to live out his days in comfort and all because he had as a young boy given all he had to the Lord.
The crowd was very moved by his testimony and a hush fell over the crowd. A little old lady rose to her feet in the silence and spoke to the aged gentleman. "I dare you to do it again."
He was once willing to give 100% of what he had to God; but, now that he had much more was he willing to do it again?
That is what these two passages teach us. Our attitude toward our possessions and what we are willing to do with them governs not only the rewards we will reap in the next world; but also how we will be received and remembered in this one.
Pastor Gaither Texas
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 12:44:26 PM
niebuhrian in va,
Thanks -- it would be most helpful (and FUN as well) to see your resources and ideas. Now, the next trick is: will my old brain remember to check the discussion page?! Blessings on you,
FC
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 3:14:06 PM
Thank you jc for your questions, thoughts and the joke! DGinNYC
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 3:39:18 PM
While I agree the rich man was apathetic and may have been in love with his money, I think he clearly articulates what caused the separation (chasm) between him and those above by his desperate need for someone to warn his family -- he wants someone to warn his brothers to repent, and he wants it to be done by a spirit so that they will believe it. Apparently, this is what he knows he has missed and what they are missing too. He had access to the scriptures, but he DID NOT BELIEVE until he saw it for himself. It was only as he suffered separation from God that he knew the importance of faith and repentance. That, in my belief is what this parable is about. The apathy toward Lazarus is simply a side effect of his lack of faith.
A friend of mine says it's easy for us to disassociate ourselves from the rich man, because very few of us feel we are rich. However, even the simplest of God's gifts makes us rich to someone who does not have them. When our faith is not strong enough to push us toward the use of EVERY gift we have to close the gap between all people and between ourselves and God, we have selfishly hoarded, just like the rich man, and the chasm grows wider.
My own theology is that "hell" is separation from God. That's why I like the illustration of a chasm. Pastor Janel in ND
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 4:41:46 PM
Great post, Janel. Every time we walk away from a person in need, we walk a little farther away from God, inching a little closer to the hell you speak of. After awhile, it's like we don't notice how far we've wandered. Then we get that wake-up call and we shake ourselves back to where we ought to be.
I liken it a little bit to our country. When things are going our way, when we feel comfortable, we become lazy patriots, not too concerned about things. Then we get the wake-up call, and suddenly the flags are flying, anthems are sung and the entire Congress stands on the front steps of the Capitol building to show our patriotism. So it was with the rich man - ZING! Oh, OK God, I should have been better at this all along.
Thanks for your post. I think some of it will influence my Baptism sermon on Sunday.
KHC
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 4:53:53 PM
I will admit that I have not had the chance to read each and every contribution on this, with that disclaimer in mind.....
This gospel reading is happening right now, at my church (maybe yours too?) we have a homeless man who lives in our courtyard and since we have not run him off and in fact we feed him, we now have more and everyday there are more. And about 60% of them have full time jobs; they have high school diplomas and a few have college degrees. They live in their cars or under bushes or in the woods in cardboard boxes. They have names and they have sores and they are willing to take what we will just throw away or let drop to the floor.
My church is fairly afluent and this has been a challenge for them, all this homelessness up close and personal, it is uncomfortable and messy business. So this reading is not about anything hands off for us, for me, it is clear - we, I , all of us who can are meant to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the widow and orfan - to really love our neighbor and even our enemy.
I think Jesus means this and while I am at it - I dont recall him ever talking about sex or marriage or going to church or dressing nicely or being saved for that matter - he did talk an awful lot about how to be with others who have less than we/I. The other stuff is easier to talk about, but it didnt matter much to him - people did.
Nothing fancy here really. Just the truth. And it is not fun, and there are issues all over the place. Still, the message is clear - and it is about doing.
blessings and peace Leo+
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:10:22 PM
I've been working on this scripture for two weeks...and I'm still realizing things about it I never have.
While I appreciate some of the stories here about how we should feel bad about sometimes avoiding "street people", I think that we should not assume that Christ is painting a portrait of ALL that are poor or living on the street. Please understand that I am a modern-day "Cornelius". I am both Christian Lay Speaker and a modern-day centurion (ie, law enforcement officer)so I speak from experience. Not everyone who is poor is a Lazarus. Not everyone that is rich is like this rich man.
To me, one of the key verses of this scripture is "But Abraham replied, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you recieved your good things, while Lazarus recieved bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" (v. 25). Jesus was making it clear to the Pharasees that good things do indeed come from God. However, the rich man was not a good steward of what God had blessed him with and this is one of the reasons that he ends up in torment...not simply because he's rich. Nothing in the parable tells us how this man got rich. Was it because he had worked hard for it? Did he inherit it? Its not specifed because it didn't matter. What mattered was that he lived in "luxury every day" when there was someone in real need right in front of him. Yes, the rich man could have said, "Oh, but if I brought him in my house then my entire household would have been ceremonially unclean." Since the man had "sores" then this would have been true according to the Mosaic Laws covering skin diseases. Most of Chapter 13 in Leviticus outlines in detail how to isolate those who have infectious skin diseases. Verse 45 - 46 of that chapter says: "the person with such an infectious disease must wear torn clothes, let his hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of his face and cry out, 'Unclean!Unclean!' As long as he had the infection he remains unclean. He must live alone; he must live outside the camp." But let's not confuse those today that are "unclean" that need our compassion and care and those that are motivated by evil and are a threat.
I have a dear friend who is wealthy, the product of many years work by he and his wife at their own business. Awhile back, my wife became very sick. She was diagnosed with degenerative arthritis and lupus. Part of the lupus was skin disorders, including sores and lesions on her arms and legs, sometimes even her face. At 38 years old, she was disabled, her skin covered with sores. With the loss of her income and the time that it took to get disability benefits our family was in dire straits. Even though I was working full time, overtime and two part-time jobs, we were still financially strapped due to the cost of her medicine and medical bills. One month I found out that she had stopped taking some of her medicine because we would not have had enough money to buy food and clothes for our children if she had.
This rich man was the first person in our church to come to me. One Sunday he walked up to me and shook my hand, at the same time slipping an envelope into it. All he said was, "Do me a favor and make sure this is taken care of for me, please?" The money in the envelope was exactly the amount that we needed to meet our necessary obligations for that month. This happened more than once. Even thought everyone in the church was aware of my wife's condition and our situation, there were quite a few that extended their sympathies and hoped things would get better, and kept on walking. Many were just as well off as my friend. Many of these people also gave a great deal of money for programs in far-off countries, relief programs, and civic groups. They probably tithed and then some. I'm sure that the Rich Man in the parable gave abundantly to the Temple, paid his taxes, gave to the town's funds to help the poor, etc., since these were things that were required of a good Jewish man at the time. But when the person needing their help was right on their front step, they didn't help. Except for my friend. I will never forget his words when I tried to give him the money back. "Son, we have it to give. God has blessed us with a great deal and I have more than enough for us. I don't need it. You do. One day you will find out what I mean. The more that I give the more I get back. You have no idea of the blessings that I've recieved by helping others."
That's one rich man that will be dipping his own water in Heaven!
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:34:33 PM
Many posts seem to be saying, "It is our attitude that saves us." I'd like to turn that upside down. It is Jesus who saves us, and our attitude that threatens to get in the way.
Michelle
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 7:59:34 PM
This parable does not tell us specifically why the rich man ends up in torment. Even though "Father Abraham" says to him "You have already received good things" we cannot assume he was in torment because he was rich. Rather, it seems that he was there because he had not heeded "Moses and the prophets." Maybe his tithe was not of the first fruits (or wasn't a tithe). Maybe he disregarded the promise, because he couldn't imagine anything better than what he already had. Maybe his sin was not that he disregarded Lazarus, but that he disregarded God.
Michelle
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 9:06:38 PM
We have Amos as the lectionary OT counterpart to this story (in the ECUSA lectionary) and he was there with last week's as well...So it seems to me that it is worth paying a little attention to that. Israel was chosen, blessed, "rewarded" with wealth in his day, if you care to put it that way, "elected" indeed - but NOT for Israel's own benefit - The prophets are full of this, I think - the thundering accusation that when God's own people (who were supposed to be like God) were given the opportunity to BE the "son of God" as Israel was seen to be, and called, in fact - the nation as a whole opted repeatedly to be "for" themselves - to live according to purely predictable, conventional social standards rather than to embrace with great joy the freedom they had received from the God of the Exodus - to free others as they had been freed, to give generously because God had given to them, to love freely because they had been wildly and freely loved - THIS is why Amos is so furious - that the rich get richer at the expense of the poor, the widowed, the orphan. Israel had been poor and helpless and needy - and enslaved - and therefore was invited/obligated to remember that past, and to behave towards others as God had behaved towards them in their poverty...That they did not, and in fact came to see their own wealth as a reward for being good and the poverty of the poor as a punishment for being sinners, lies behind this story, it seems to me. So the great reversal is exactly that. Lazarus is comforted because that is what God does for "the poor who have no helper" - and Lazarus is shocked to discover that what he has counted on as evidence of his goodness is not understood that way - It is a story, though - not, in my view, an arguement about heaven and hell - It is still directed to the pharisees who a couple of verses previously had been reminded that they "loved money" - It is just a real and serious warning about being who you are called to be - God's people who see as God sees and behave towards the helpless as God does - ie as God acted towards Israel in Egypt - a warning in colorful language, in a great story that turns everyone's expectations upside down. If the rich man had used his wealth as John Wesley did - who said that if when he died he had money left (it is cooler than that, but too long to quote) it would be shame to him...there would have been no issue. He said we ought to earn all we can - in order to GIVE all we can! ANd he did both...wealth is neutral, until we make our decisions about how to spend it - Wealth is either a gift to the world, or a weapon we use against it...we are invited to become more like God, or not - up to us... Susanna in MO
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 11:16:34 PM
Luke 16:19-31, reminds us the faith that Christians have been living for centuries. This faith is manifested on how we have translated it and live it into our action. Most of us easily say we love, we believe, he have pity on those who are oppressed, deprived, marginalized in our society. Am sure we all beleive that the fiscal crisis does filinos experiencing has something to say on how we carry this faith, love to our brothers and sisters but where is that love and faith, we is that we confeesing, faith without action is totally dead?
In addition to that Luke reminds us our commitment to the gospel. Commitment is not only going to church on sundays, attending special celebrations in the church but it is also how we live our stewardship by reexamining the gifts, the wise use of gifts given to us by God. It is then how we translate this into the glorification of his name by serving our neighbors. AMEN
Mars
Date: 9/24/2004
Time: 11:17:04 PM
Luke 16:19-31, reminds us the faith that Christians have been living for centuries. This faith is manifested on how we have translated it and live it into our action. Most of us easily say we love, we believe, he have pity on those who are oppressed, deprived, marginalized in our society. Am sure we all beleive that the fiscal crisis does filinos experiencing has something to say on how we carry this faith, love to our brothers and sisters but where is that love and faith, we is that we confeesing, faith without action is totally dead?
In addition to that Luke reminds us our commitment to the gospel. Commitment is not only going to church on sundays, attending special celebrations in the church but it is also how we live our stewardship by reexamining the gifts, the wise use of gifts given to us by God. It is then how we translate this into the glorification of his name by serving our neighbors. AMEN
Mars
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 6:57:24 AM
Some last minute thoughts... Gene Lowry talked about the image of the bread on the rich man's table-- Dominic Crossan, he said, said that the rich man used bread as a NAPKIN. He had so much abundance that he could use/waste bread as a napkin and toss it aside, whereas that same bread could fill the poor man's belly. Gene also talked about the chasm between the rich man and the poor man, how it was not about God's judgment, but that the rich man created that chasm. The way he divided up the world: rich has found favor in God's sight, poor are being punished-- created an island for the rich man, isolation. Heaven would have been hell for the rich man, as he would have to share the table with the likes of Lazarus. Also, that this parable is very different than other parables of Jesus that use secular images, and this one is a parable of post-death. Just some last thoughts as I go to write the sermon!! PM in PA
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 7:34:58 AM
PM in PA said "...rich has found favor in God's sight, poor are being punished-- created an island for the rich man, isolation. Heaven would have been hell for the rich man, as he would have to share the table with the likes of Lazarus."
PM, I agree with you which is why I think it's important that Abraham lifts up MOSES and the prophets. Moses' writings direct the Heberw nation to be kind to the stranger, alien, weak.
Moses says don't be fooled that YOU have obtained all your blessings. They are gifts from God.
Most of the time, the prophets condemned Israel their straying from God as it manifested in Israel's uncaring attitude toward the orphan, the widowed, the weak, the helpless of THEIR OWN nation, while the rich had access to the courts and justice and the religious leaders amassed fortunes at the cost of those in Israel w/o and advocate or voice.
AUGGIE in TN
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 7:44:58 AM
Everybody
If you don't want to deal directly with hell, but don't want to completely ignore it, this joke, and I don't rememeber where I got it, may help.
--Looking over the rim of the volcano s crater, the American tourist remarked, "Reminds one of Hell, doesn t it?" The guide threw up his hands and exclaimed, "These Americans, they’ve been everywhere."--
AUGGIE in TN
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 7:54:26 AM
I just had a thought. There are all these reality shows on TV where people "swap" places. Usually the people involved lead drastically different lives. Sometimes they learn something about the other and about themselves. Sometimes they remain clueless. I wonder how the rich man and Lazarus would fare in a modern reality TV situation?
Is that what is happening in the Hades/Paradise conclusion? Is the rich man seeing a connection between his desire for a drop of water and Lazarus' lifetime desire for a scrap of food?
There IS a resurrection from the dead. There IS a bridge across the chasm. But the question is will the rich man be able to realize the promise? It seems as though he's going to be one of the clueless ones for whom walking a mile in the other man's sandals will have no effect.
Peace, Rev LM
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 8:00:10 AM
It is very late and many of you already are prepared to proclaim the Word tomorrow. There is such an interesting connect between Jeremiah and the Parable.
In Jeremiah, we find him captive, living in desperation, in an occupied country, where all hope would seem to be wanting, and yet her takes his money and purchases his inherited land. Jeremiah makes a parablolic action for by purchasing the land he affirms the covenant, the Yahweh will not abandon his people.
In the parable, we find a rich man, in bondage in hades, living in desperation, who continues to abuse Lazarus, who has no interest in anything other than himself, who makes demands to the end, without realizing that the Scriptures hold the fullness of life for him. He does not look outside himself, he commits himself to nothing, he remains whiney person.
tom in ga
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 10:01:43 AM
Two people named Lazarus.
One is carried away by angels to Abraham's bosom and is in comfort after living a life in pain and suffering.
The other suffers what may have been an untimely death and is called back to life by his friend, Jesus.
Jesus says in this parable that people will not believe even if someone comes back from the dead, so why raise Lazarus (the brother of Mary and Martha)?
Why not send the poor Lazarus back on a mission?
I don't know.
Paul in GA
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 10:49:54 AM
Punishment does not work as a motivator as evidenced by our over crowded prisons. God should know this. So Hell must be something other than a place to be punished. It must be meant for someone or something else.
Is the Rich man in Hell? Does Lazarus see him? Does Lazarus feel justified in not helping the Rich man now that he possibly can? Why would he not want to help the person who allowed him to stay in the doorway and eat the table scraps? What an ungrateful little snot.
La-Z-Boy
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 11:22:10 AM
LaZBoy, your comment *Why would he not want to help the person who allowed him to stay in the doorway and eat the table scraps? What an ungrateful little snot* prompts me to a response.
My understanding of heaven (if that's where Lazarus is, it doesn't say. It just says he was taken by angels to Abraham and we don't know where Abraham is) is that what happened on earth is gone, it is passe, it is no longer an issue. Adversaries become comrades in worshipping Jesus, the oppressed are no longer oppressed, wealth means nothing and neither does poverty, rank is gone. So for Lazarus to feel justified in now lording it over the rich man because of past injustices seems impossible to me. Even IF one is in Heaven and one is in hades, for a man in heaven to feel he ranks over anybody, even one in hades, would push him back into the category of sinner still in need of redemption and forgiveness for his own cavalier attitude toward his fellow man, and very separated from God. That would be the same sin the rich man is guilty of that landed him in hades.
I absolutely agree with your statement that punishment is a lousy deterrent.
Peacenik
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 11:31:55 AM
I am not sure whether anyone else has noticed, but Lazarus is "known", the rich man has "no name" What does it mean to be "known" or "forgotten" by God. Does God forget those who forget their neighbor? ("forgive us as WE forgive").
This Sunday is about two rich men who deal with life and death very differently, one trusting the God's future, and the other trusting only in himself.
tom in ga
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 12:25:04 PM
AUGGIE in TN
Thanks for the smile...
"You Americans, you've been everywhere..."
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 12:33:03 PM
AUGGIE in TN
Thanks for the smile...
"You Americans, you've been everywhere..."
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 1:35:05 PM
The thing is ... the text just does not say whether the Rich Man was good or bad to Lazarus (it's a parable, anyhow, folks). If you recall, this latest trend in the lectionary began somewhere near the 'Where your treasure is, there is your heart."
In the I Tim, it's "you can't serve 2 masters."
It's (at least according to the lectionary gods) about where our treasures/hearts/masters are. What is ruling us? It appears that whatever was ruling the Rich Man was not so good...
Jesus is saying, not that rich is bad, poor is good, or the rich man was bad because he didn't help Lazarus (it's not spelled out in the text), but that in a society where "Rich" meant "Blessed by God" and "Blessed by God" meant that you were doing everything right ... it would have surprised the listeners to hear Jesus say, "Well, not necessarily!!!"
The chasm that we must attend to is less about what to do on hot button issues or deciding who's right and who's wrong, but on attending to the chasm in our own hearts ... being truthful with ourselves (Dr. Phil's "getting real") and taking a moral inventory (12 steppers do it) and acknowledging the areas where we are NOT serving the "right" master but serving/ valuing something counter to his will.
Sally in GA
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 2:42:24 PM
This may or may not relate to the scripture...
Still, I think this passage is about "belonging"...
The Rich man, though delayed... realized he wanted to "belong" and asked Abraham to ask Lazarus to help him to belong...
Perhaps some of you were able to catch Oprah on Friday...
Seems there were two pastors who were doing some mission work in Nigeria...
On the play ground one day, he spoke to a little girl... heard her speaking fluent English... where are you from? "Houston" came the reply. Come to find out she and her 6 brothers and sisters had been left there by their adopted mother who ran off with her Nigerian Boyfriend/husband leaving the children with her fiance's family.
The Pastor was mortified at the living conditions these children were forced to live in... they had lost weight in the 8 months of living on rotting food and bad water.
Although the eldest had been to the US embassy she had no papers to prove her story, outlandish as I'm sure it sounded... true.
The pastor turned ot leave... and thought of what he could do to show his support of the children, he turned and started singing the "National Anthem" and the children stood in a huddle with tears streaming down their faces singing. The pastor made a promise to the children, as he handed a single one dollar bill with the children, and promised the next time he saw them they'd be in the US and he'd give replace the $1.00 with a $100.00 one...
8 days later, the children were returned to their home town of Houston.
A month later, they were on the Oprah show... the two pastors... and then she brought out the 7 orphans... the pastor good to his word, stood and handed each of the children a $100.00 bill.
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou040818_jw_Nigerialigginsfolo.8d82769a.html
Yes, each of us wants to belong, and each of us should belong, and DOES belong to the family of God.
preach the word... if you don't, who will,
pulpitt in nd
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 3:39:15 PM
Pulpitt in ND, I too thought of the children's story when I read this scripture this week. Don't forget one very important part of their story. When Oprah asked them if they ever thought they would get out of there, the older girl replied, "I knew we would because every day I prayed, Dear God please help us get out of here." God answered her prayer by sending the 2 pastors as missionaries. LS
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 4:36:16 PM
Does it bother anyone that Lazarus was practically stripped of his power to show mercy? I've really struggled with that one.
The rich man had the power to show mercy and didn't, and was condemned for it. But Lazarus, who is being begged for mercy is not able to give it - and he's in heaven!
I think that it is really important to remember that we are all empowered in our relationship with God to show mercy in sometimes the smallest ways. I think it is a shame that this parable denies Lazarus that empowerment.
Erin in Ontario
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 4:43:46 PM
Being on the West Coast and being a "P" I get to get one of the last posts in which most won't read!! What an honor! Anyway the thought occurred to me, it is HELL reading all these posts!! Now don't get me wrong, it is not because the post aren't good, interesting, insightful, helpful, etc. But good grief, think of it, we are mostly pastors/theologians who admit many a time we don't know what the HELL we are reading, understanding or saying to a group of people! It is tough enough to figure out life here on earth, is this about that or the other? or both? Maybe that is the beauty of it all. We can make our own HELL or throw up our hands and throw out our own stratagies and then God have mercy on us and everyone else for that matter.
Special to Michelle: saved by our attitudes? I didn't really hear anyone saying that any more than anything else. Damned for our attitudes, yes, maybe and probably more so than for our behaviors or lack of them.
For me, and it is the bent I have been going the whole time is that the parable is about the here and now and not the hereafter. If I don't behave and think (attitude) better here, not only does it not do any good to me then, but no body now. But if i can think and behave as best I can under the circumstances and it makes a difference now but not later, that is good enough for me and most. Anything more is just grace on the table!
Good luck to all... thanks for the great stories and insights and sayings.....think I will use the two simple jokes to grab there attention... the one about the priest, rabbi and pastor walking into a bar and the other one about the American tourist looking over the rim of a volcano...
OMG
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 6:09:17 PM
This is a bit late to be useful, but for those of you still looking for a little something more I'd like to share my congregation's story.
As our small, elderly congregation was looking to the end of 2003 and the beginning of another cold Michigan winter, a suggestion was made to hold a dinner to raise money through a freewill offering. The money was to go to the local Family Independence Agency (Social Services) for the Children's Christmas Fund. The meal was very successful.
This meal led us to consider the needs of the many people who are still hungry, even though the holidays are over and the gift baskets are all used up.
Now, the one thing that our older congregation can do is put on a great meal. We decided to provide a Free Community Dinner the last Wednesday of each month at 6:00 p.m. Each month the membership (about 20 core people out of a congregation of about 25 regular members) would assemble a menu and put on a meal with food they had donated and prepared themselves. The first month we had 26 people and a blizzard (Jan.). Next month, 34 and more snow (another snowstorm). Each month we have witnessed more people attending both from our own congregation and from the community.
We haven't seen any of these people in our congregation on Sunday morning, but they have been invited. However, we see them on the streets in our town and we are excited to see one another. We stop and talk in the grocery store, the post office, the drug store...
Our church is still a small group, but we have a purpose now that we haven't had in a long time AND we know that our Father is pleased with our work.
Wednesday evening fellowship used to be the same 4 or 5 people, and Sunday morning consisted of around 15. Our membership has become revitalized by their calling to "Feed my sheep!"
Julie
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 6:43:49 PM
Hello, everyone:
It is very late, and I am not finished, but when I reread this scripture in the NIV, I was caught in verse 20 with the words: "At his gate was LAID a beggar names Lazarus." Who laid Lazarus at the gate? How many Lazarus's do we lay down and leave to fend for themselves? Still contemplating. pb in ny
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 8:10:19 PM
Julie I am struck by your visualizing the call of the congregation. Blessings on your ministry!
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 9/25/2004
Time: 10:35:56 PM
Hopefully some of you will check this out still even if it is after your sermons: I got this web site off one of the listings from Textweek.com
it tells you were your income fits into the world's population!
Check it out at www.globalrishlist.com
OMG
Date: 9/26/2004
Time: 12:13:57 AM
OMG,
The link for that site you gave was misspelled.
http://www.globalrichlist.com/ is the actual link
The basis for their hourly calculation of salary is flawed if it is based on a forty hour week (do the math). A forty hour week is 2080 hours a year.
Date: 9/26/2004
Time: 6:08:15 AM
Julie, and all late posters, I'm a truly desperate preacher...the rest of you fib. I'm here, mere hours before preaching! Julie, your congregation looks like mine did a few years ago. Glad they (your congregation) saw a space for themselves, for vital ministry. Sounds like a chapter out of the book, "Turn Around Strategies for Small Churches." Can't remember the author, but my denom. had him in last Feb. for a great conference. I was the only attender from my meeting, and perhaps the only one who saw a future; so, with great sadness (initially, at least--time eases the pain), we will cease to gather for weekly worship after Nov. 14. The 15 or so who remain after a savage winter and spring will find other faith communities; God will make a way for my family and me. Oh, to find the warmth of a group such as yours, with whom one can minister. God's blessings...lkinhc
Date: 9/26/2004
Time: 10:14:38 AM
Julie, Another post no-one will read... When I arrived for worship this a.m., knowing we would be nearly miniscule in # (but remembering, nearly chanting, "Where two or three are gathered, where two or three are gathered...), and would have proceeded with all I'd planned (and, I like to think, all that God may have directed me to over the week), when one lady suggested they all just go home. What to do when someone seems to say, "Don't waste my time."? So, home we went...but only after I made sure they gathered an offering! Yikes! I've always felt they were such lovely folks; it's tough not to read too much into this, to not take it personally, to not shoulder the entire blame, if blame lies anywhere. lkinhc
Date: 9/26/2004
Time: 10:41:21 AM
lkinhc
I read your post. I was saddened that what you had planned didn't happen. Could you share some of what you prepared? I would like to hear it, (or at least see it). I remember in Seminary a class no one took, but a few. It wasn't a popular course, but I remember the teacher taught it with a passion. Are we as preachers adding to the culture of "more is better" with our desire for the numbers in our churches? I can hear some of you saying, "you're a fine one to talk, you're retired!"
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 9/27/2004
Time: 10:36:58 AM
lkinhc: confident that you will not read this as the Sunday crisis has passed and your likely on to the next thing. The "blame" is not yours...God begins things and God ends things. We are bascially okay with the beginning of things (mostly but don't get me started on congregations and change) but we are almost never okay with God ending things. Take heart, friend. These things are in the hand of God and for that we can be thankful and peace-filled. Don in TN
Date: 9/28/2004
Time: 1:08:30 AM
With Faith the size of a mustard seed I can move mountains. That's great news!
What strikes me about the words that follow this realisation is that Christ then challenges US to move.
I guess many of us use our faith to get us through each day exactly how we want to be. "If my faith can make everything else move then I don't need to."
Christ tells us we are to get up from the table and serve - not be waited on hand and foot.
I wonder how many people in our churches listening to these words will be sat in exactly the same place they sat last week - we hate moving.
We want the practice of our faith to be comfortable and easy - service is hard - a call to move and a call to change - and all for no reward - it is merely our duty.
Paul Farrer
Date: 9/28/2004
Time: 4:23:12 AM
Bamama and Don in TN, The emotional churning has eased some since Sunday AM, and, certainly, if all those words I intended to share were true on 9/26, they'll be true in October, also. Having always been part of small fellowships, I've never been one to figure on the figures. It occasionally seems idolatrous. But, it's an easy barometer to check for failure, if you buy that theory. I've written articles defending the right of the small church to exist. After all, Jesus grew all this out of 12 or so, and none of Paul's churches probably broke 50. At least this way, God has a few more days to teach out of the difficulties of this passage (Abraham's bosom?), or to tell me, as is often the case, that His thoughts are higher than mine, so hang on. I need a mustard seed faith, but not for filling pews, but for glorifying God. So, on to October, each Sunday bringing me one closer to Celebration Sunday, after which, we will cease to gather. May Jesus Christ be praised...lkinhc