The true Kingship of Jesus is revealed in the Cross. There can be no true disciple who does not follow Jesus to the Cross because it is at the Cross that we see who Jesus truly is and what He does for us. In our own lives the Cross and the shadow of the Cross must pass. As the shadow comes over us we need to look up to Jesus, we need to look up as the Jewish people looked up to the bronze serpent and we too will have life. With the issues going on in our country and world we need this Christ Crucified and the message of the gospel to see us through difficult moments and to come to victory in Christ.
I'm gone this week, Happy Preaching and Good eating to all. Thanks for the great discussion last week. Nancy-Wi
Recognizing our King. In our pain can we be as gracious and encouraging as this thief hanging on his cross. Remember He suffers along with us as we walk our journey. "His Cross before His Crown." this might be my title. Just musing for now. LPinPA
In intercessory prayer we are reminded by the liturgical theologian Don Saliers that we are to 'remember' the world to God. As we make our prayers this week, I believe last week's dialogue, especially in the heart-felt reflections of Nail-bender, provide a prelude to this week's Golgotha confrontation with the Cross unveiling the King of Kings. I am greatful, as in Thanksgiving, as in Euchrist, for all your contributions serving as the prolegomena to this week! I believe a review of those prayerful reflections will provide a "stream of consciousness" enabling us to "pray the scripture" at hand concerning the victorious King of Kings who hangs from the Cross... I again invite us to see the world God so loved through the eyes of Jesus who hangs from the Skulls' ugly Cross of death unveiling the God who makes Advent out of despair's darkness, who embraces the world in spite of its tragedy with victorious resurrection. Holy Ground and the Burning Bush of Golgotha continue to reveal the "I-AM-God-Self" being/becoming the Wounded Healer, the Suffering Servant, at work in the bleeding, broken, world he so loves. (PaideiaSco in the north ga mts)
I would just like to recommend that you read through the "Previous Discussion" .... it is interesting reading and quite instructive.
Blessings, Eric in KS
In the previous discussion from 1998, one of the posters referred to "an Argentine Church Baptism ritual where the parents, usually the mother, wears black mourning clothes as she presents her child for baptism."
Does anyone else know of this custom and, if so, have reference to any documentation of it? We're baptising an infant on Christ the King and I think I'd like to refer to this custom, if it is verifiable....
Thanks and blessings, Eric in KS
Good Monday morning to you all!
Does anyone have any information on the two women, Heather Mercer and Dayna Curry? I've been searching. I thought that on Christ the King Sunday they were be good, current illusttration. They kept their faith after a long 104 day ordeal. I waas reading the press releases on the Antioch Community Church in Waco, TX but was unable to find any statements from the women themselves. Any ideas? By the way I'm preaching on Colossians this week. Paul in sunny Fl.
opps.. should be Paula in sunny Fl
opps.. should be Paula in sunny Fl
To Paula in Fla.
I saw the two ladies interviewed on CNN ... you might check the CNN.com website to see if there are any transcripts of their comments.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Paula,
Try http://www.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74088|CHID194343|CIID1154010,00.html
So what kinda Savior is this that cannot even save himself???
Indeed, if the Church had created Christ they would not have created this one!!!!
tom in ga
The people say,"If you're the Messiah of God, save yourself." The soldiers say,"If you're the King of the Jews, save yourself."
The criminals have a better understanding of what it means to be Messiah. Even the "bad" criminal gets it, and says,"If you're the Messiah save yourself AND US!" The "good" criminal leaves off the "If" and simply asks,"Remember me when you come into your kingdom." It isn't self-preservation that makes you God's servant. It is in saving others(even at your own peril) that you become the agent of the Almighty.
On 9/11, those who ran from the buildings, and those who didn't make it, we called victims. Those who ran into the buildings, or stayed inside and helped get others out, we call Heros. Same as it ever was.
No application yet, just tossing around for ideas. It's only Tuesday. tom in TN(USA)
Eric in KS I have not heard that tradition, but have heard that there are baptism fonts in the shape of coffins, as a reminder of the death of Christ, and of our dying to sin. A nice slooooow immersion baptism would give the same feeling of almost dying. I suppose the black dress is because the mother is taking her child to his/her death, either spiritually, or because, in some places, being a Christian is very likely to lead to death. I also have an infant baptism. I am working with the question: Is Christ your King? In this world, the kingdom of God has no definite boundaries. Believers are in the midst of unbelievers. Baptism is a mark of the kingdom. God puts his mark on us, and we live into what it means to be baptized. JRW in OH
Hi all.
Re: baptism. I heard the story from John Westerhoff (sp?).
The service began with the congregation singing a funeral dirge. The family processed in slowly. The father carried a child-sized coffin he made himself. The mother carried a bucket of water. The sponsors (God-parents) carried the child.
When the family arrived at the front, the priest poured the water into the coffin. He took the baby, put it under the water and said, "I kill you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!"
He then lifted the baby out of the water (soaking wet, of course, as when it had been born, covered with the waters of birth; crying, of course, just as when it was born, filling its lungs with the breath of (new!) life!), and the priest proclaimed, "And I raise you up to new life so that you may love and serve the living God!"
The congregation sprang to its feet and began singing an Easter hymn!
Think that congregation knows what baptism is all about?? You bet!!
Rick in Canada, eh?
Thanks for the link to Crosswalk. Paula.
Hi. I'm placing this in a couple of lectionary discussions. Can anyone help me find a new/different liturgy for doing the "Hanging of the Greens" during worship on Dec. 2? I'll gladly swap you the one I used in 1998! Thanks for any help. LL in L
What did the second thief see that all the others didn't? He asked someone who was beaten, bloody, and about to die to "remember him." What a statement of faith! Or...did he just not have anthing to lose. "If you are King, save yourself...and us," the first thief said. After all, a king is supposed to get me out of all my messes, right...deliver me from the pickle I've gotten myself into...maybe even give me a last minute pardon from my death sentence. A king has the power to do that, right? In the book Reaching for the Invisible God, Yancy talks about how that if you are uncomfortable with paradoxes, then you'd better stay away from Yahweh, and you'd better stay away from Jesus Christ. A King who is executed with criminals? Dying in order to live? Powerless in order to save? Going to Hell in order to go to Paradise? I'm not sure where this is going yet...just ramblin' out here. NBC Preacher
Today you can buy a 4 day trip to the Bahama's on a cruse ship for $199. Paradise for eternity is paid in full when you believe in a man who forgives you for killing him on a cross. Everyone is looking for a bargain but our fears speak louder to cloud the truth. As we face death in our final moments what's true.. becomes clear and we cry out for a Savior. Why do we wait so long to make our reservations? Why do we kill the one who loves us? Jesus said it best when he said, "they do not know what they are doing." Tragedies have a way of bringing what is true into clearer focus. I guess we mock what we don't understand.
Just some thoughts... KB
Does this fit this week's lectionary? I think so...
Proclaiming the Gospel John Stott
Preaching the law
Before we preach the gospel we must preach the law. Indeed this has never been more necessary than it is today when we are witnessing a widespread revolt against authority. The gospel can only justify those the law condemns. These are the respective functions of law and gospel; as Luther puts it, it is the work of the law to 'terrify', and the work of the gospel to 'justify'(1). Thus every man's spiritual history becomes a microcosm of God's dealings with the human race. God did not immediately send his Son; nor can we immediately preach him. A long programme of education and preparation came first, in particular the giving of the law to expose the fact and gravity of sin. And the law still performs the same function. 'It is only when one submits to the law', wrote Dietrich Bonhoeffer in prison, 'that one can speak of grace ... I don't think it is Christian to want to get to the New Testament too soon or too directly.'(2) To bypass the law is to cheapen the gospel. We must meet Moses before we are ready to meet Christ.
(1) "Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians" (Clarke, 1953), p. 423. (2) "Letters and Papers from Prison" (ET SCM Press, 1959), p. 50.
--From "Our Guilty Silence" (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1967), p. 98.
---------------------------------------------------- --Excerpted from "Authentic Christianity", pp. 334-335 by permission of InterVarsity Press.
Posted by Rick in Va
KB,
Have you entertained the possibility that Christ's killers were doing the will of God? If so, does that change your focus at all?
Rick in Va
To me the two criminals (sinners) who were crucified with Christ repesent all of us. We all desirve to die for what we have and have not done and only Christ can grant the gift of life at the time of death. Here again Luke is emphasizing that we do not deserve anything, but God does give us Love, grace and forgiveness. BD in Chicago
In his commentary, Craddock says that the second criminal was able to identify Jesus as a king in spite of His circumstances because only kings can offer pardons. That's exactly what Jesus did in verse 34.
Also, in his devotional book, "My One Hour with God," John Maxwell tells the story Keith Miller tells on himself. It seems that Miller had planned an adulterous renedezvous at an out-of-town hotel. He was to call the woman he was to meet on checking into his room. But as he tried to call her, Bible passages kept flashing through his brain. Interestingly, they weren't the passages that condemn adultery. Rather, they were the passages that speak of God's love, given to us through Christ. Three times Miller tried to make the call and three times he put the transceiver back in its cradle. He finally called out to God, "I love you too much to do this."
It was God's grace and love that prevented Miller from perpetrating a sin that would have had a devastating impact on him spiritually and on many others.
That's like the criminal. He was observing incredible love: a wrongly accused Savior praying for those who mocked and killed Him. That's what brought him to repentance, I think.
Just some thoughts. I'm enjoying the discussion.
God bless all with a wonderful Thanksgiving!
In Christ, Mark in OH
What is the first thing you think of when you hear the word “King?” What images does it bring to mind for you?
Do you think of fairy tales and nursery rhymes? King Midas and Old King Cole?
Or maybe the word King conjures up notions of a place like Camelot where kings like Arthur rule over a blissful medieval golden age.
Perhaps it brings to mind more modern images – people like King Hussein of Jordan or other modern-day kings.
How do those images change when we say the term is not just King, but Christ the King? Jesus Christ as Ruler, Sovereign, Supreme Being.
Maybe you think of a triumphant return in clouds of glory, where Jesus Christ eradicates evil forever and establishes a reign marked by peace and joy. Living in world that has been forever changed by the horrific events of Sept. 11, that image holds a lot of comfort and hope.
But do your images of Jesus Christ as Ruler of the Universe include images like we find in our story from Luke today?
Images like the humiliation brought on by taunts and jeers. The emotional pain caused by the denial of your closest friends. The sheer physical agony of being tortured and then nailed to a cross.
Above is the opening for my sermon. I plan to play off the contrasts between the Luke and Colossians readings, and end with the notion of a king defined not by his physical might and wealth but by his unbounded love.
Thanks to all for wonderful, thoughtful musings. I find these discussions very helpful.
Blessings, RevRoger in OH
What is the first thing you think of when you hear the word “King?” What images does it bring to mind for you?
Do you think of fairy tales and nursery rhymes? King Midas and Old King Cole?
Or maybe the word King conjures up notions of a place like Camelot where kings like Arthur rule over a blissful medieval golden age.
Perhaps it brings to mind more modern images – people like King Hussein of Jordan or other modern-day kings.
How do those images change when we say the term is not just King, but Christ the King? Jesus Christ as Ruler, Sovereign, Supreme Being.
Maybe you think of a triumphant return in clouds of glory, where Jesus Christ eradicates evil forever and establishes a reign marked by peace and joy. Living in world that has been forever changed by the horrific events of Sept. 11, that image holds a lot of comfort and hope.
But do your images of Jesus Christ as Ruler of the Universe include images like we find in our story from Luke today?
Images like the humiliation brought on by taunts and jeers. The emotional pain caused by the denial of your closest friends. The sheer physical agony of being tortured and then nailed to a cross.
Above is the opening for my sermon. I plan to play off the contrasts between the Luke and Colossians readings, and end with the notion of a king defined not by his physical might and wealth but by his unbounded love.
Thanks to all for wonderful, thoughtful musings. I find these discussions very helpful.
Blessings, RevRoger in OH
After any tragedy, the question people all ask is, "Why did God do this to me," or at least, "How could God let this happen?" We fail to understand the nature of the power of God. It is not power over others - forcing us to do his will; rather it is the power of self-giving love, reconciling the world to himself. That is why his power is seen most clearly on the cross - in the words of one of the church fathers, "God reigns from a tree."
I think of the new understandings being developed in quantum physics - that our universe is intricately connected in ways we do not yet even understand. We are not surrounded by empty space; rather, even the movement of an atom light years away has an effect on us. The whole universe is in fluid motion. When one part moves out of sync, the rest gently attempts to pull it back. Perhaps this is true also of the spiritual life - a description of God's self-giving. When evil rears its ugly head, God expresses his reign in love, reconciling the world to himself, pulling things back into a balance, moving things back into his will and toward the coming kingdom. The cross expresses how he does this by taking the burden of it upon himself - not forcing his will upon the world, yet leading it inexorably toward the completion of his own purposes.
Just a few thoughts.
Gary in New Bern
I don't know about you, but when I prepare for a sermon, I do the exegesis and usually end up with more ideas than I can encorporate. It helps me to think of a creative presentation idea. For this pericope, I'm going to ask the congregation to imagine two easles, each with a canvas. I'll introduce characters in the story, such as each criminal, the crowd, etc., discuss briefly what characteristic they represent, and tell which canvas I would place them on. Like a painter you might see on PBS, I'd say that this person needs certain colors or textures, and for what reason, (being careful, of course, not to imply ethnicity). One canvas would represent earth's kingdoms, and the other the reign of Christ. There should be quite a contrast in the end!
Thanks, by the way, to those who discussed Robert Frost's "Out-Out". What a commentary on the crowd! MTSOfan
To Rick in VA and KB
Were Christ's killers doing the will of God? Unwittingly, yes.
Was Peter doing the will of God when He struck Malchus "in defense of the faith"? Clearly he was continuing in his earlier thinking when he said "This will never happen to you," and Jesus replied, "Get behind me, Satan."
For some reason this doesn't make sense to us. For some reason, a dying Savior also makes no sense. I've come to the conclusion that there is a kind of thinking which, if it makes sense to the world's way of thinking, it isn't God. God always thinks differently than we do. I guess that's why He's God.
As usual, my thoughts go more toward children. I'm thinking of discussing the signigicance of Christ the King Sunday -- that we don't always celebrate it. Some years, Advent begins the Sunday after Thanksgiving. But Christ the King is more than just an extra shopping day.
I'm using the image of a teeter-totter. Christians teeter-totter between the secular world that sees this as an opportunity to sell more, and Christ's world that says "love is all you need." Sometimes we are firmly planted in one world, sometimes in the other. The question is not, how do we find the balance, but SHOULD we find the balance?
Glad to be back to lectionary preaching.
RevJan
Mark in OH, Is it blasphemy to say Fred Craddock was wrong? I tremble. But in fact Jesus did not grant any pardons in v.34, he asked God(Father) to pardon them.
The Maxwell/Miller story is terrific. The power of love to draw us to doing right can be stronger than the power of threatened punishment to keep us from doing wrong.
All these weeks since 9/11, I've been avoiding the topic of forgiving your enemies and what that might mean for us and our enemies. I think now we have enough distance so that this will be a good week to tackle that question from the viewpoint of one who regretfully and with sadness supports the military action in Afghanistan. Larry cny
It is so often true of humans that the first thought is to "save yourself" and/or "those whom you love." Sometimes even to ask, "How can you save others if you don't save yourself first?"
This thinking is evident every time you board an aircraft: "...In the event of an emergency, please place the oxygen mask over your own face first and then help children or others around you!" It only makes sense.
But in God's kingdom, Jesus understood that IF he saved himself... then he could NOT save those whom he came to save. He came to save us... NOT save himself.
Terry T. in Nebraska
Larry cny: I don't know if it'll help, but here's a link to a list of quotations about forgiveness:
http://www.pulpit.org/articles/forgiving_quotes.asp
Best wishes as you extend pastoral love in a tough time. mtsofan
Rick in VA asked, "Have you entertained the possibility that Christ's killers were doing the will of God?"
Although the question was not directed to me, everytime I access this site and see that question, I bristle.... Yes, I have entertained this traditional notion (thank you, Paul; thank you, Anselm) and (some will say heretically) dismissed it. I am convinced that we need to rethink the doctrine of the atonement, what was done in the whole Holy Week event, from triumphal entry up to and including the post-resurrection appearances. The idea that God would require the death of the incarnate Son is simply abhorrent -- Paul was right when he said his sacrificial understanding of the crucifixion was "a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles." (1 Cor 1:23) Anselm's "ransom" theory (based on medieval feudalism) appears just as foolish to modern sensibilities.
To suggest that Christ's death was "God's will" seems to make Paul's and Anselm's theologies even more unpalatable! I find nothing in Scripture to suggest that God's will for his people (or his messiah) is EVER death! Death came into the world as a result of the Fall, not by the will of God. God's desire for his people is LIFE! Last week's reading from Isaiah makes that so apparent: "No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old person who does not live out a lifetime; for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth, and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed." (Isa. 65:20)
Rather than a doctrine which requires us to believe that God would require a death, I prefer to understand the crucifixion as "the world's will" overwhich God wins! Jesus died because the "powers that be" of Rome and Judea could not understand and, therefore, could not tolerate his message, nor the people's acceptance of him. They thought they could defeat him by killing him. His death was not God's will, but the world's....
God's will was, as always, LIFE and thus God _used_ the world-ordered crucixion to accomplish God's ends -- God "redeemed" Jesus' death on Calvary, turning it against the powers of the world, against death, but God did not require it.
I am still working on this, but I think it very important that we do this kind of theologizing rather than parrot theologies that grow out of ancient societal norms that no longer apply. Paul's emphasis on sacrifice grew out of the Temple practices -- my studies in Judaism and the history of Judaism have taught me that sacrifice was considered the least efficacious of the ways a Jew could approach God and receive divine forgiveness and blessing, a sort of last resort. Paul elevated it well above its regular place in Jewish understanding (perhaps that is why his theology was found by his Jewish contemporaries to be a stumbling block). Anselm's theories grew out of the feudal relationships and obligations of his society. Neither makes much sense to a modern (or postmodern) generation. If we are going to make sense of the "Christ event" to our contemporaries, we very much need a new theology of atonement. (I should tell you that I came to appreciate this while taking a course in Judaic prayer at our local Conservative Synagogue -- the comments of the rabbi and of other students, who were converting to Judaism, convinced me that a rethinking of the "sacrifice of the cross" should be a significant priority for modern Christian theologians.)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Ooopss! In my treatise above, I referred to Anselm's "ransom" theory ... wrong! Anselm developed the "satisfaction" theory ... the "ransom" theory originated earlier with the Cappadocians. I was writing from memory -- and I always get those mixed up. (I should mention, also, that Grotius's "governmental" theory is equally unpalatable. Nearly all traditional atonement theories lay the blame for the sacrifice of the cross at God's feet and it is that element that I believe we need to rethink.)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Rick in Va's question: Were Christ's killers doing the will of God? I think of the crucifixion as God's will only in that the alternatives were NOT God's will. For Jesus to take everything he said back, change his teaching, or go into hiding was not God's will. The only alternative for Jesus that would be true to who he was as God's Son, would be to face evil head on and suffer the consequences. It was "God's will" in that God knew what was in people's hearts and that this would happen if he were to live on earth. The important part of God's will is the resurrection, as Eric said above.
I also find the question of forgiveness (above)interesting. I have a rabbi friend who claims that the only ones in the position to forgive terrorists are the ones who are killed. Therefore there can be no forgiveness for them. As Christians we believe that we can forgive others because we are all sinners, and Jesus has forgiven us. But that doesn't mean we necessarily have to allow them to keep killing people. A hard question.
DGinNYC
For Eric in KS, DG in NYC or anyone else "bristling" at the thought of Christ's death on the cross being an act of sacrificial atonement for the sins of the world and deciding that new "theories" must be drawn to explain the cross to a post modern world...
I am less surprised these days as the "modern" and "post-modern" of today's enlightened decide to trample on Scripture and on the faith that has served so many so well over the last two millennia. And given this mind-set, I truly wonder why I even bother attempting to defend that faith, but nevertheless, for those who have ears...
I ask you to read John Piper's 'treatise' or 'theory', one that unlike others we've been exposed to, has the support of Scripture, on this issue.
I'll excerpt a portion of Piper's introduction below but pray that ye with truly "open minds" will read the entire thing at http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Christ/ChristDieForUsOrGod.htm.
Here's the excerpted introduction, one that goes along way toward defining Christ as King:
"One of the reasons it is hard to communicate Biblical reality to modern, secular people is that the Biblical mindset and the secular mindset move from radically different starting points.
What I mean by the secular mindset is not necessarily a mindset that rules God out or denies in principle that the Bible is true. It’s a mindset that begins with man as the basic given reality in the universe. All of its thinking starts with the assumption that man has basic rights and basic needs and basic expectations. Then the secular mind moves out from this center and interprets the world, with man and his rights and needs as the measure of all things.
What the secular mindset sees as problems are seen as problems because of how things fit or don’t fit with the center – man and his rights and needs and expectations. And what this mindset sees as successes are seen as successes because they fit with man and his rights and needs and expectations.
This is the mindset we were born with and that our secular society reinforces virtually every hour of the day in our lives. The Apostle Paul calls this mindset "the mind that is set on the flesh" (Romans. 8:6-7), and says that it is the way the "natural person" thinks (1 Corinthians 2:14, literal translation). It is so much a part of us that we hardly even know it’s there. We just take it for granted – until it collides with another mindset, namely the one in the Bible.
The Biblical mindset is not simply one that includes God somewhere in the universe and says that the Bible is true. The Biblical mindset begins with a radically different starting point, namely, God. God is the basic given reality in the universe. He was there before we were in existence – or before anything was in existence. He is simply the most absolute reality.
And so the Biblical mindset starts with the assumption that God is the center of reality. All thinking starts with the assumption that God has basic rights as the Creator of all things. He has goals that fit with his nature and perfect character. Then the Biblical mindset moves out from this center and interprets the world, with God and his rights and goals as the measure of all things.
What the Biblical mindset sees as basic problems in the universe are usually not the same problems that the secular mindset sees. The reason for this is that what makes a problem is not, first, that something doesn’t fit the rights and needs of man, but that it doesn’t fit the rights and goals of God. If you start with man and his rights and wants, rather than starting with the Creator and his rights and goals, the problems you see in the universe will be very different.
Is the basic riddle of the universe how to preserve man’s rights and solve his problems (say, the right of self-determination, and the problem of suffering)? Or is the basic riddle of the universe how an infinitely worthy God in complete freedom can display the full range of his perfections – what Paul calls the "riches of his glory" (Romans 9:23) – his holiness and power and wisdom and justice and wrath and goodness and truth and grace?
How you answer that question will profoundly affect the way you understand the central event of human history – the death of Jesus, the Son of God."
Humbly but confidently,
Rick in Va
Rick in VA: I've read Mr. Piper's writings before, as you have referred us to them in the past. I find nothing in Mr. Piper's papers that is original. Mr. Piper's thought is pretty standard Biblical literalist, which you obviously know I will reject as I come from a denominational tradition that believes the truth of Scripture is not found in factual literalism. Be that as it may, let me reply briefly to just one point in your quotation of Mr. Piper, specifically:
"And so the Biblical mindset starts with the assumption that God is the center of reality. All thinking starts with the assumption that God has basic rights as the Creator of all things. He has goals that fit with his nature and perfect character. Then the Biblical mindset moves out from this center and interprets the world, with God and his rights and goals as the measure of all things."
I do not disagree with this at all. What I disagree with are theories which I find entirely at odds with this, to wit, theories of the atonement that include within them the assumption that God's "nature and perfect character" demands the death of any of God's creatures, including (and especially) the Incarnate Son! I reject the notion (put forward by the Cappadocians whom I otherwise highly regard) that God is some sort of cosmic fisherman dangling his son like a worm before the evil-fish-Satan, supposedly ransoming his creation from the evil by the death of his Child (whom God then snatches back from death). I likewise reject the Anselmian notion that God is some sort of medieval feudal sovereign demanding a debt that humans cannot pay and therefore beneficently offering to kill off his Son to pay the debt! Likewise, Grotius's "governmental" notion of God the Judge demanding a sacrifice to uphold the dignity of his Law. I find no Biblical warrant in any of these, regardless of what Mr. Piper (or these esteemed theologians) may write. God's "nature and perfect character", as Scripture clearly shows, is as creator and champion of Life, not as demander of Death.
I believe that an understanding of the atonement which acknowledges that God's purpose does not require, although God may allow, death is not contrary to Scripture. Rather such an understanding would uphold God's "nature and perfect character" while these "ransom," "satisfaction," and "governmental" notions actually fail to do so. As to whether my thought, as friend Rick has obliquely suggested, does not have the support of Scripture ... I respectfully suggest it does, but also note that this is neither the place, nor an easy forum within which to argue these points in depth. I merely here resond to Rick's question whether one has considered that "Christ's killers were doing the will of God." Again, yes, and I cannot and do not accept that notion. God's will is shown in Scripture, time and time again, to be in favor of Life -- God permits death, God uses death when it happens, but God cannot be the creator and champion of life and at the same time demand death. And this is a position which begins and ends with God as the center of the universe and all creation.
Blessings, Eric in KS
By the way .... everyone here ought to consider Mr. Piper's exegesis (or, more correctly, IMHO, eisegesis) of Romans 3:25 -- Here is a quotation from his paper:
"'God put [Christ] forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed. (Romans 3:25)'
"Boil that down to the most basic problem the death of Christ is meant to solve. God put Christ forward (he sent him to die) in order to demonstrate his righteousness (or justice). The problem that needed solving was that God, for some reason, seemed to be unrighteous, and wanted to vindicate himself and clear his name. That is the basic issue. God’s righteousness is at stake. His name or reputation or honor must be vindicated. Before the cross can be for our sake, it must be for God’s sake."
I think just about anyone can see that this is simply the "governmental" theory of the atonement -- Piper argues in terms of "vindicating righteousness" whereas Grotius (and those who follow him) refer to the "dignity of the Law" but the basic analysis is the same. Somehow, God isn't God without death! I'm sorry, but that just isn't God and I don't believe that that is at all what Paul had in mind when he wrote the letter to the Romans!
However, I do think we'd better figure out what he did have in mind and interpret it for our contemporaries, or we are going to lose more of them!
Blessings, Eric in KS
The underlying nature of atonement is neither a "demand for death" nor is it abhorrent. What God demands is that wrong be set right. The OT focus of this was the sacrifice. But it was never really the sacrifice per se which atoned - it was the penitent attitude of the sacrificer (cf. Psalm 51). Christ's atoning work frees us from the necessity of sacrifice. The sacrifice has been made. But it wasn't God's demand, either, that Jesus die. It was God's decision to willingly give up his life to save the lives of God's creatures. "Greater love hath no man than this..." Sacrificing others IS barbaric and horrible. Sacrificing one's self, however, is an act of love. Atonement is about love, not death. John's gospel makes it explicit that Jesus willingly lays down his own life, that it isn't taken from him. His suffering is intentional, and, contrary to the apparent circumstances, quite his own doing. This is what makes this text so appropriate for Christ the King - it reveals the true nature of Christ's kingship. He is the king who serves and saves. Ken in WV
p.s. - The acts of self-sacrifice by the men and women of the NYPD & the FDNY would make perfect illustrations of the inspirational beauty of Jesus' act of sacrificial love, one that our listeners could relate to in a fresh and powerful way. Ken in WV
Eric in KS
Thank you for your brave and challenging comments – you have at last caused be to make contribute!
I do believe that we should be constantly challenging our traditional explanations of how doctrines such as the atonement 'work'. It is surely our task as preachers to interpret afresh the ways of God to our generation. We always fail - how can we do otherwise - but we must surely always be striving to make sense of God for our own time. Of course, we will risk being called heretics, but then that's what religious people called Jesus.
The doctrine of the atonement is bound to be the most sensitive of all Christian dogma, it is after all about our salvation. I agree entirely with all that you have said above, but may I also point you to a book that was exceedingly helpful to me on the subject. 'Atonement and Incarnation', by Vernon White, 1991. Vernon is a good Anglican theologian and his slim volume, though not an easy read, tackles the problems with all the classic theories (for that is what they are) head on and then comes up with a new and, to me most helpful, explanation for our own times.
Many thanks for all your postings in the past - you have often been a great help to me.
William in Guernsey
Eric,
First, I'd like to steer you over to the Discussion Site (http://www.desperatepreacher.com/discussion) where I have posted an article dealing with the use of the pejorative term Literalist.
Second, I'm intrigued by your comment "I find nothing in Mr. Piper's papers that is original." Is originality the sum of what you look for in theological discourse? Do you honestly believe that your views are original? Methinks knowledge has puffed you up.
Thirdly, it is typical by modern day revisionists and allegorists to take an excerpt of a piece, grant that excerpt some self-serving meaning that resembles little of the author's original intent, and then self-servingly skewer that meaning. (Is Straw Man a 'literal' or allegorical construct?) I think it would behoove the serious theologian to go back to Piper's article to see what Piper's attempting to say about Romans 3:25 and not rely on Eric's rather oafish attempt at understanding.
Finally, I'd like to challenge you to give the Scriptural support of your theories on Christ's death over on the Discussion Site. When (if?) you do, should the reader read your theories literally or allegorically? In fact, should we give literal meaning to any of your writings on this site or should we "loosely" come to whatever self-serving conclusions come to our own minds?
Respectfully, and just as humbly, I am
Rick in Va
Friend Rick in VA asks, "In fact, should we give literal meaning to any of your writings on this site or should we "loosely" come to whatever self-serving conclusions come to our own minds?"
With regard to my writings, Rick, you may do whatever you like.
Your oafish friend, Eric in KS
The "good" theif's statement, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom" was a statement of profound faith. It was a faith that TRUSTED, rather than UNDERSTOOD, Jesus as king. The "bad" theif's poking fun at Jesus' Messiahship was breaking the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain.
I'm entitling mine "Jesus, Remember Me," and highlighting the image of a crown of thorns vs. a crown of gold and a coronation anthem of jeers rather than a work commissioned by a famous musician to remind us that our faith is one of trust, and not understanding. I liked Tom in GA's quote, "If the church had created Christ, they would not have created this one." No, the Christ we would have crowned would have been much nicer - better at party politics, would have made nice with the Pharisees, and certainly wouldn't have eaten with unwahsed hands or washed anyone's feet.
In the coronation anthems I've sung (they're English, so they're taken, I presume from the BCP), there is praise and acknowledgement of Christ as Lord and the Holy Ghost, the comforter, but at the end is something interesting-sounding to Americans: "let me never be confounded." It means, "let me never be obliterated, put to nothingness." our plea to God not to put us to nothingness is to trust that our lives are not lived apart from Christ's reign.
A long way to say, "Jesus, remember me, when you come into your kingdom." I may not understand it, but I trust God's power, and thus, I trust your reign.
Sorry to be so long; hashing it through at the end of a hectic and sad 2 months. Sally in GA
Of course I can Eric... but haven't we dodged the question... why is that?
How should the folks in the pews hear the words of the preacher? Literally, allegorically, both? I guess it depends doesn't it? Why not give the benefit of that thinking to someone like Piper?
As an aside, what is the purpose of preaching? Why is it important to preach Christ as King? Or is it? Aren't there times where literally partaking of the words being read or said an absolute necessity to effectively communicate?
Less important than how I read or understand your words Dr. Eric is how people in the pews of St. Francis of Assisi would read, listen and/or understand your words... do you flash a sign perhaps to let them know when they should or should not take you literally? When giving advice as a Franciscan Consultant, at what point do the advisees know that they should take your advice literally?
Yes, there truly are many pitfalls to being a literalist these days...
Rick, literally in Va...
(sigh)
As one who's often called a "literalist," I found I liked the concept of "intentionalist" for that is probably what I truly am. I seek to try to understand the message the original writer intended the original reader to receive. This is not an easy task, but it is the lofty goal. However, I find this discussion isn't getting me closer to a sermon.
They did not know what they were doing, as Jesus pointed out, because they failed to see the three attributes of King Jesus displays here.
First, He does not "save himself." A king sacrifices himself and his own interests for his people. I know this needs further development, but it is true that a good king (leader) looks always to the needs of those who must follow.
Second, He leads the way. Kings in this day were not like presidents of ours who are rushed to a place of safety during a crisis. These kings lead their troops into battle. In _The Horse and his Boy_ in the Chronicles of Narnia series, a young prince is being told what it means to be king. “...to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there's hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.” Our Lord lead the way into death for us, His followers, and also leads the way into victory.
Finally, from the cross, the King extended a pardon; the “divine right of kings.” All who look to this king will find that pardon.
It's a start. Not only a literalist but a "three-pointer."
Your hopeless friend, JG in WI
I am enjoying the dialectic between Rick and Eric, et al(esp. DGinNYC). Usually these things fare better over on the discussion page, but this seems to go right to the heart of this lection. What does it mean to Christ as King, that he died in this way?
I have to admit I have always leaned toward a very old understanding(2nd century?) of soteriology, the "Recapitulation" theory of Irenaeus. In a nutshell, this theory says,"Everything Adam did wrong, Jesus did right, eradicating the power of Death over the human race." God's great do-over, done right! As a tree in the garden was the vehicle for sin entering the world, so a tree(cross) on Calvary was the vehicle for sin's power to be lifted off the earth. Adam's "original sin" of distrust followed by disobedience is "in the end" annulled by Jesus' complete trust in and obedience to God, standing up for the Truth even if it means death(from sinful men). Irenaeus believed that evrything Christ did in life made up for some sin by mankind. His 40 days resisting temptation in the desert made up for the 40 years of wandering brought about on the Hebrews by their distrust of and disobedience to God in the desert. And so forth and so on, Jesus basically rewound all of sinful human history right back to the tree and from the cross offered the criminal by his side "Paradise", the Eden before sin. Kinda elegant, ya gotta admit. tom in TN(USA)
Rather than reply directly to Rick's queries about my use of cue cards in preaching (which will take me even farther afield from the pericope), I would like to direct us back to the question of how we present the atonement to a modern/postmodern generation and how to preach from Luke's gospel.
The following is from the New Interpreter's Bible (Vol. IX, pg. 457, R. Alan Culpepper writing):
"Luke does not defend any particular theory of the atonement. The traditional theories generally fall into one of the following categories: sacrifice, ransom, or moral influence. Luke never calls Jesus 'the Lam of God who takes away the sin of the world' (John 1:29 NRSV); cf. John 1:36; Acts 8:32). Neither does the Lukan Jesus say 'the Son of Man came ... to give his life a ransom for many' (Mark 10:45 NRSV). At most, the two on the road to Emmaus report, 'We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel.' (24:21; cf. 1:68; 2:38). No proof text suffices in these matters, but the absence of even such references as one finds in the other Gospels underscores the extent to which Luke relies on the account of Jesus' death to carry the message of its significance. How one chooses to explain it, after all, is quite secondary to the confession that Jesus is the Christ, our Savior."
I think the last sentence is particularly relevant both to the dialog between me and Rick, and to preaching this text tomorrow.
Blessings, (the oafish) Eric in KS
William in Guernsey:
Thank you for the reference to Vernon White. I went to Amazon.com and discovered the book is still in print at a cost of $60!!!! Fortunately, they also had a used copy available for $25, which I have ordered.
Thanks again, and blessings, Eric in KS
I wonder if Culpepper sees any significance toward a Lukan reference to sacrifice and/or atonement in Luke 22:19-20?
(Luke 22:19-20 NIV) "And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." {20} In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
I think the Jewish listeners, whether they be allegorical or literal in their understanding, would see the significance of these words and their pointing to the issue of atonement/sacrifice...
Wouldn't you say Brother Eric? Or should this Lukan theory, along with so much of Paul's writing, also be debunked by today's enlightened men (and women, and of course today, the transgendered men/women) of letters?
Rick in Va
Rick in VA, why must you be rude and abusive? Your points would be much better received (with open mindedness even) if they weren't couched is sarcasm and veiled insult.
To answer your questions, however:
(a) You need not wonder about how Culpepper understands the text you cite; simply look it up for yourself in the New Interpreter's Bible and read Culpepper's commentaries and reflections.
(b) Would Jesus' original hearers have understood the significance of his words at the Passover meal? Yes, I'm sure they did.
(c) Should Luke's or Paul's words be "debunked"? No, and that is never a word I have used in our discussion. I have suggested that we theologize, explore the ancient and current theories of the Atonement, and develop understandings with which we can make sense of the "sacrifice of the cross" to our contemporaries. ("Debunk", btw, is defined in the dictionary as "To expose or ridicule the falseness, sham, or exaggerated claims of." Not once have I suggested that the words of Scripture (or the work of theologians, including your Pastor Piper) are false, pretentious, or sham.)
Rick, I answered your question about "Christ's killers" and "God's will" in the hope that we might have a civilized discussion of that idea apropos of this pericope and the preaching most of us will have to do on Sunday morning. Now that I have experienced the barbs of your commentary (and witnessed them directed at others on the discussion site and the previous discussions of this text), I no longer feel called to respond to your posts. I am sure that on quite a few things we could find agreement, but so long as you cannot engage in discussion with ad hominem attacts on your "oafish" correspondents or from mischaracterizations of what we say, we will never find out. I spent several years sparring verbally (and caustically) with others as a trial attorney; I left that profession and don't intend to engage in such repartee here.
Peace and blessings, Eric in KS
oopss
Part of the above should read:
...withOUT ad hominem attacts on your "oafish" correspondents or REFRAIN from mischaracterization...
Eric
Rick in Va. Ditto to Eric's post. I would appreciate being able to post ideas on this site without being attacked. This seems to be a long-standing problem of yours.
DGinNYC
Well said, Eric. an Ohio preacher
LL in L
I have two different versions of the same service I would be happy to share with you. They are not tied to the RCL. Don't know whether that's you're looking for or not.
RevRoger in OH
I enjoy EVERYONE'S posts...
I love to hear, see, experience the struggle of other clergy and lay people...
for it helps me with my struggle... to preach something that my folks can be challenged and empowered by... as one said recently...
"I come away from your sermons with more questions than answers."...
to which I replied... "Good, then I've done my job!"...
as I see it our job is indeed to challenge the scriptures when in comparisson to the day and time they were written.
To confront the comfortable and comfort the hurting... or however that goes...
I'm reminded of UMC Bishop Woodie White Now, may God torment you --- May God disturb you --- May God keep before you --- the hungry, the dying, the oppressed, the rejected. Then, may God give you the compassion to to the work you ?HAVE? to do --and may you do your best --- Then -- and only then -- - May God grant you peace --- until we meet again. -Amen-
pulpitt in ND
I enjoy EVERYONE'S posts...
I love to hear, see, experience the struggle of other clergy and lay people...without being judged an oaf... or worse...
The struggles of others help me with my struggle... to preach something that my folks can be challenged and empowered by... as one of my "flock" said leaving church recently...
"I come away from your sermons with more questions than answers."...
to which I replied... "Good, then I've done my job!"...
as I see it our job is indeed to challenge the scriptures when in comparisson to the day and time they were written.
To confront the comfortable and comfort the hurting... or however that goes...
True dialogue is a give and take...
driving home last night in a rain storm from Sioux Falls, SD... north... I came accross a radio talk show...
A caller... was promoting the new "Talk to the Hand" promotion... their premise is that the world is too concerned about the 9-11 events, anthrax, Afghanistan and the like... and whenever anyone talks about those "bad" topics... or that "negative" spirit... we are to say "Talk to the Hand" in other words, "shut up and don't be so negative"... the kicker was... the person promoting this "campaign" is a former "date drug" dealer.. the drug used to "rape" innocent unsuspecting women...
needless to say, he lost all credibility... his defense... "I don't do that any more..." although that was after he bragged that he sold so much that he should be serving a 20 year jail sentance...
Callers reacting to the "gentleman" were treated with an almost incoherent speaking in tongue babble... ending with "Talk to the Hand"...
oh me...
I'm reminded of UMC Bishop Woodie White Now, may God torment you --- May God disturb you --- May God keep before you --- the hungry, the dying, the oppressed, the rejected. Then, may God give you the compassion to do the work you ?HAVE? to do --and may you do your best --- Then -- and only then -- - May God grant you peace --- until we meet again. -Amen-
pulpitt in ND
Friends:
The sermon I will preach at tomorrow's baptism is entitled "Our Paradoxical King". It is on-line at
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/csermons/christtheking-c-y2k+1.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
RevRoger in OH, I was in OH this weekend, and have just found your response. Yes, I would like to see what you have on the Hanging of the Greens. My church e-mail is gspc@microconnect.net Thanks for your help. LL in L
Previous:
Whilst I was reading through a 1908 commentary on Luke's Gospel at a Salvation Army centre in Sunbury (UK) the other day, I found a fascinating comment by the author in which he suggests that the penitent thief may well have afforded Jesus a measure of relief from his acute distress by his act of recognition of his own sinfulness and of Jesus' deity. His completely unselfish request of Jesus may also have brought a ray of warmth into the desperate chill that will have overtaken Jesus as He was separated from His Father for the first time since Creation. Just a thought. Shalom ! Nicholas KW
This is an early reflection on the text.....just some musings as I haven't done much reading or pondering yet. But it seems to me that the first thief, who wants Jesus to save not only himself but also the theives, is like the Pharisee in last week's lesson. He feels worthy enough of salvation to offer Jesus essentially the same challenge as the guards, "Ok Jesus, show us what you're made of". On the other hand, the penitent thief is more like the tax collector in his contrite approach to Jesus and his humble request. He didn't ask for anything but that Jesus remember him ........ he was open to grace.
Well, that's about as wise as I can get on a Sunday afternoon!
SueCan
In the Church of England, having just gone onto the RCL in the past year, this is the first time we have had this reading at this point and with a title for the Sunday of Christ the King. We have somewhere in a vestry cupboard a crown of thorns, made for part of a three hour Good Friday service. I want to do something visual using this, because it sems to me to sum up the ambivalence of the Kingdom - ruling but suffering. I'm finding it very difficult to see a clear structure for this though; one thought is to link it to an advent wreath, and ask people to remember the crown of thorns when they see it, to counter the sentimentality of Christmas. Mike Truman, Reader in training, All Saints, Guildford
This particular text appears on a Sunday when we will be celebrating Adult Baptism and Confirmation. Any suggestions as to how I can tie in baptism to the text???
SueCan
My first thoughts on this reading seem to be directing me to the difference between "searching" and "responding". I see the first criminal as one who is searching for answers and saving (and only searching). While the second criminal is responding to Jesus and all he means.
I found myself discussing the creation story of Adam and Eve with a friend the other day. She was for "instant" creation out of nothing while I was coming from an "evolutionary" creation. And it occurred to me that we were spending so much time on the search for our own versions of the truth that we forgot our reponse to the Truth.
Surely we need to find the balance in our times of searching/study to actually respond to Jesus' word, God's message.
Also can someone help me with the origins of "Christ the King" day?
Geoff T in NZ
My first thoughts on this reading seem to be directing me to the difference between "searching" and "responding". I see the first criminal as one who is searching for answers and saving (and only searching). While the second criminal is responding to Jesus and all he means.
I found myself discussing the creation story of Adam and Eve with a friend the other day. She was for "instant" creation out of nothing while I was coming from an "evolutionary" creation. And it occurred to me that we were spending so much time on the search for our own versions of the truth that we forgot our reponse to the Truth.
Surely we need to find the balance in our times of searching/study to actually respond to Jesus' word, God's message.
Also can someone help me with the origins of "Christ the King" day?
Geoff T in NZ
Geoff asks for the origin of Christ the King day; I was told by my vicar this morning that it was instituted by the Catholic Church in the mid twenties as the rise of fascism started, to remind people that we were all under Christ's kingship. Mike Truman, Reader in training, All Saints, Guildford
For SueCan
I'm going to make the tie along these lines:
1. Christ died and rose for the forgiveness of our sins. 2. At the table, we partake in His Body and Blood as visible sign of our forgiveness (insert appropriately drawn out Lutheran theology here <grin>) 3. We come to the table as sisters and brothers in Christ, which is sealed by our baptism in the water of the font.
Hope this spurs some thoughts.
Art
SueCan,
I remember reading somewhere that our baptism is similar to a king's or queen's coronation. The idea is that coronation doesn't make a person a king. It only makes it official. It is an official recognition that the person who is king really is king. In the same way, our baptism doesn't make us God. We are already God's. Baptism is an official recognition that we belong to God.
I'll look up the material that I got this from. I'm not sure I got it straight, so I'll look for it and tell you where I got it from.
Incidently, I will be using this scripture on 15 November. I decided to have Christ the King Sunday a week before Thanksgiving Sunday. I got tired of having these two themes share the spotlight and decided to try having Christ the King Sunday one week early. First time I'm doing this. It feels funny, but I don't know what else to do. Thanksgiving is to big a holiday and too important to people to ignore.
Brandon in CA
For SueCan
Just a thought from a fresh seminarian. The inscription over Christ was meant as an ironic jesture. The person who put the sign there didn't for an instant believe Jesus was the King of the Jews. In Baptism we are also given an inscription as a child of God. Also quite ironic, since, what have we done to deserve this?!
Hans
Thank you everyone for your suggestions! All are helpful and thought-provoking....I keep returning to the theme of "glimpsing eternity". For that brief moment in time, the second thief had a clarity in his understanding of God's grace and the meaning of Christ's death and resurrection to humanity. That kind of clarity that so often evades us in our hectic, occasionally chaotic lives. Just a moment of perfect clarity, and in the face of it, all he could declare was the truth he saw before him and a yearning to be part of it. He had a moment of what Alice Munro calls "accidental clarity", a moment of grace when, for that time at least, it all made sense.
Maybe that's what an adult profession of faith is about too. It's not about having it all figured out .... for who among us is at that point? (certainly not me!)........ but an admission that the glimpse of eternity that they have encountered in their own relationship with the risen Christ is enough to lead them to the font.
That seems to be where I'm at tonight.......thanks again folks.
SueCan
I wrote this hymn back in '95 and folks are welcome to use it. Let me know if you do at: michael@cliffcrest.org
Recall my name on kingdom day, Dear Lord, to you I pray. I long to stand beside you then, To follow in your way.
Beside the cross of Jesus find Two broken souls to bind. I find myself in either place; The choice is only mine.
On one side only anger knows, And only hatred grows. The other in his heart confessed, To him God's mercy flows.
Recall my name on kingdom day, Dear Lord, to you I pray. I long to stand beside you then, To follow in your way.
Suggested Tune: St. Anne 8686 Copyright 1995, Michael Jacob Kooiman
As an intern in a church I have been pondering the meaning of Christ the King Sunday. In preaching this text what will be different from how I would preach it during the lenten Season? (If anything at all). I would love to hear some thoughts on this. Intern Mike
The Feast of Christ the King comes as the summit of the Pentecostal Season. It is the reigning of Christ within after fully experiencing the gifting of the Spirit from the fiftieth day after Easter. How have we put all things under his subjection. How is his reconciling life changing my life, how doe the Pattern of my life influence my relationship with family, parishioners, friends, others, the world. There is no compartmentalization, and yet we tend to separate our belief in God with our life in the world - this Sunday before Advent reminds us that we can't do that, our faith and praxis must be one and thus we enter a new year focused once again on our attempt to unify our faith and life knowing that it is only as we are born-again (the Christmas Story) that this becomes possible: heaven and earth have touched each other. Fear not, I bring you good tidings.
Historically, this feast was celebrated on October 31st in opposition to Reformation Sunday, but in the minds of the Lectionary reformers this day was moved to the Last Sunday after Pentecost to celebrate the reigning Lord who has given himself to us through his death on the cross - do you recognize him?
Tom in GA
Pope Pius IX, Quas Primas, 11 December 1925 laid stress on the rights of our Lord over society at a time when society wanted to live without Christ. God is a God who is deeply concerned for humanity.
On October 28, 1939, on the Feast of Christ the King and while Europe was going into a period of convulsions which would make us lose hope for her if we had not hope in God, the Pope consecrated over the tomb of Saint Peter twelve bishops belonging to the most diverse peoples and groups of peoples, several of whom were men of colour. “Those who enter the Church, whatever may be their origin and their language” said he on this occasion, “must know that they have an equal right as sons in the house of the Lord, wherein reign the law and peace of Christ.” But if this equality in the Church is established upon baptism and the grace of divine adoption, who can fail to see that it necessarily presupposes a similar fundamental equality in the order of nature? <Jacques Maritain, Ransoming the Time, New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1941>
I'm going to start my sermon by playing the first verse of "I Just Can't Wait to be King" from "The Lion King." The cub thought he knew what he wanted, but had no idea how hard the job was going to be, or that it meant the death of his father. A heck of a price to pay.
Think back to the Old Testament and the Hebrews telling Samuel, Give us a king. Samuel says, You don't want a king. God is your king. The Hebrews say, Give us a king. Samuel says, A king will tax you and take your children for his army. You don't want a king. The Hebrews say, Give us a king. And when they got one, their history went downhill.
Do we really want a king? Christ the King Sunday comes right before the beginning of Advent, when we celebrate with candles and royal purple colors. We may be preparing for majesty, but what we end up with is a man on a cross. We get a king who was a servant. Do we really want to serve a servant? Do we really want a king who ends up on a cross?
First thoughts.......LW
Ihave a question on this text that I have wrestled with for some time. When Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.", is he speaking to one or both of thives? This opens the door to a debate of inclusiveness versus exclusiveness. I am preaching on this text and have long wanted to make this the basis of my sermon. I would appreciate hearing the thoughts of all of you on this.
Thanks, Mark in Everett WA
This will be my 2nd "real" sermon as an intern. Here's what keeps grabbing my attention (beginning of v.35): And the people stood by, watching.. Don't know yet how a sermon will come together as we watch Christ our King suffer and die. But thank you thank you all for your musings and information concerning this special Sunday. Blessings! steph
How do we perceive?
I am struck that one criminal recognized Jesus and the other did not - he only mocked him! What was it that one saw and the other did not? What is it that we see? A dying savior - what good is that? A living Lord - how is this possible? What kind of kingship is this - a Lord who reigns from the tree? The one who perceives the Christ seeks to testify to the one who is blind. What does all this mean?
Tom in GA
And the people stood by watching ....
What a terrify image. Are they helpless, don't they care, are they voyeurs of the savior? Is this all faith does, watch! Can you not watch with me for one hour? Strange!!! No Good Samaritans here - lets watch him die. Some years ago in this little town a black man was hung by the neck for some crime he committed, and the whole town came out to watch, watch, watch ....
Tom in GA
As noted above in a an unsigned posting on Nov. 14th, the Liturgical celebration of the Feasr of Christ the King was established by Pope Pius XI (baptismal name: Achille Ratti) on December 11, 1925, in the text of his encyclical QUAS PRIMAS. The year 1925 was one of those periodic years designated by Catholics as a "Holy Year." The encyclical marked the closing of the year-long period of renewal of life. "To enhance the glory of the Kingdom of Christ," he wrote that it was his desire to close the Holy Year "with the insertion into the Sacred Liturgy of a special feast of the Kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ." (section #6).....He designated that it be observed on the last Sunday of October, near the conclusion of the Liturgical Year, and just prior to the Feast of All Saints. With the more recent liturgical reforms this feast was moved to the last Sunday of the liturgical calendar, so as to serve as a summary of the mysteries of faith contemplated, proclaimed and actualized during the past year....The document is dated in its style and in the historical context of the cultural, political and social issues of the earlier decades of this century. However, Pius XI drew upon rich scriptural fondations for the feast, as well as early patristic writings...I hope that this brief summary will be helpful to DPS readers who may be from a Reformation or free church tradition...Whatever our denominational background, I would hope that we all could utter a common "AMEN" to the following aspiration of Pius XI: "If the kingdom of Christ, then, receives, as it should, all nations under its way, there seems no reason why we should despair of seeing that peace which the King of Peace came to bring on earth--he who came to reconcile all things, who came not to be ministered unto but to minister, who, through Lord of all, gave himself to us as a model of humility, and with his principle law united the precept of charity; who said also: 'My yoke is sweet and my burden is light.' Oh, what happiness would be ours if all men (sic), individuals, families, and nations, would but let themselves be governed by Christ!..."(section #20) ....The quotation from Martian, above in the unsigned posting, is but one of many profound mediations which illustrate the challenge to make "the reign of Christ" contemporary to each decade and situation....I hope the above serves as an aid to reflecing on this week's lectionary texts.... The Peace of Christ the King to one and to all.... Gregory in Dot, MA
Dear SueCan Paul writes: "When we were baptized into Christ, we were baptized into his death so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live a new life." Baptism is death and resurrection. Confirmation (our church also refers to it as "Affirmation of Baptism") also refers back to this event. I hope this helps.
steph,
And the people stood by watching ....
A couple of others have given some good ideas for this one...but it brings to my mind a poem by Robert Frost, the name is "Out, out..." The final line is: And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs.
(you can find the entire text at: http://redfrog.norconnect.no/~poems/poems/00341.html)
I might look at the poem and scripture with an eye to "what could be done...what would I do...would I be any different than those who watched, or who went about their affairs?
(My 2nd sermon was this morning...Prayers with you, fellow intern!)
skm in ca
Christ the King Sunday = the end of the litergical year (the culmination) The year begins again: anticipation of Advent, Birth of the Savior, Life, Death, Resurrection, the gift of the Holy Spirit (Pentecost), the birth of the Church and the spreading of the Word, so all may recognize Him as Christ the King. We start all over again. The thief is the first convert. Perhaps he is "From Convict to Convert", as are all of us sinners, who come to know the Truth, Jesus. My question: How could he be with Him in paradise today, if Christ didn't raise from the dead for three days? Thoughts? LS
LS
My old college friend cited this passage as proof that Jesus lied. How could Jesus say "this day" when he would be in the tomb until Sunday? My answer is a simple one. I think there's lots of evidence that the Hebrew/Aramaic word for day (yom) does not always mean a literal 24 hour day. Take a look at Genesis 2:4. Larry cny
To DPS readers and scrollers: Rather than engage in an ecumenical discussion on the theme of the Feast of Christ the King in the Lectionary Forum, I invite anyone so inclined to join me at the Discussion Forum site. I would love to hear your views on the topic: "The Common Lectionary: an ecumenical instance of cross-fertilization"...Curious in Dot, MA.....Gregory in Dot, MA
Dear LS
According to tradition (Saint Peter) Jesus descended to hell, decended to the dead in order to preach to those who came before him who were in sheol (paradise?) All this before the third day!
Tom in GA
The crucified Jesus ...
What is it about God being King. We prefered a political King. We would not allow the King of the Jews to live. We really do prefer Babylon and Egypt?
How are we royal persons - what is our destiny - as we follow Christ to the Cross, by letting go of our control, does Advent come as the possibility of being born again?
I am curious Do any of you use the Whole People of God material? The material for this week suggest some separate Thanksgiving suggestions. I feel led by the Spirit to preach about giving thanks, rather than the Christ the King texts. Do any of you feel the same way? Where could we go for our conversation? By the way the texts they suggest are: Deuteronomy 26:1-11; Psalm 100; Phil 4:4-9; John 6:25-35. I am particularly interested in tying the Deut. and John passage. We could use e-mail. Mine e-mail address is JLongard@aol.com. Any other suggestions? Sorry for interrupting the flow. Shalom, John in Ky.
A thought;
Could it be that we are being too hard on the first thief? Buechner writes, "One of the crooks who was strung up with Jesus put it this way, 'If you are the Christ, save yourself and us.' Save us from whatever we need most to be saved from. Save us from each other. Save us from ourselves. Save us from death both beyond the grave and before." (Wishful Thinking, pg. 61)
I will be focusing on thrones this Sunday. The vast array of ornate and beautiful thrones that monarchs have used throughout the ages for their seat of power - compared to the throne of Jesus = the cross, from where Jesus shows his power in incredible weakness. Theology of the Cross = where God is most knowable, most recognizable is on the cross with Jesus.
EAO in WI
To John in Ky -- I noticed that the next lectionary listing in the DPS forum is for Thanksgiving Day. It lists the same texts that you noted. That might be an appropriate place to go for Thanksgiving discussion. I thank God for all of you -- God be with you in your wrestling toward a message this week --RevAmy
Interesting that Luke 23:34 (Father, forgive them, etc.) is not contained in the earliest manuscripts of Luke's gospel. In the NRSV, after verse 34 there is a footnote that reads, "Other ancient authorities lack the sentence 'Then Jesus...what they are doing'. This verse is central to our Gospel proclamation, but what if Jesus never really said it??? Wes in west central Illinois
Already some thought-provoking images offered here...thanks for the image of the crowns...kings crown, crown of thorns, advent wreath. I'm going to muse on that for my sermon: "What Kind of Crown." I think it also ties in with the Colossians passage. Then the thought of our baptism being our coronation...I like that, too. I'm remembering lots of conversation in Christology class re: theologia cruxis and theologia gloria. This day with its theme and scriptures are almost like a oxymoron...paradoxical. I think that is where I am going to be wrestling this week. RevKK
Oh, and as for thanksgiving...I was going to go the thanksgiving alternate scriptures route -- but then I thought: "While giving thanks for earthly things is good and needful, but sometimes at this season begins to be trite. (Question: And what are you thankful for? REsponse: my family, my dog, my new car...") What better passage to generate deep gratitude than reflecting on Christ's ultimate gift. "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." RevKK again.
Oh, and as for thanksgiving...I was going to go the thanksgiving alternate scriptures route -- but then I thought: "While giving thanks for earthly things is good and needful, but sometimes at this season begins to be trite. (Question: And what are you thankful for? REsponse: my family, my dog, my new car...") What better passage to generate deep gratitude than reflecting on Christ's ultimate gift. "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." RevKK again.
To Rev. Amy:
Thanks for your suggestion. I didn't scroll down far enougyh. Grace and peace to all.
Shalom, John in Ky.
Mark in Everette WA:
As far as I can tell (using dusty Greek bible) the words in vs. 43 are singular rather than plural. Indicating that Jesus is replying specifically to the penitent thief rather than both. (check me out on this, I'm not a Greek scholar...) But the idea is still worthy of pursuit. What exactly is Jesus response to the offensive, first criminal? Perhaps the same response as to the Roman gaurds: "Father forgive them,..." I hope for an empty hell and a full heaven...
Also, stream of consciousness here... I see the same parallell between these two thiefs and Peter and Judas. Both men are quilty of equal crimes, both abandoned and betrayed Christ (ie: we all are sinners) But one is able to break free of the old legalistic world view to imagine a world where Christ forgives our sin. The judgement on Judas and the first thief isn't God's condemnation, but their inability to imagine a forgiving God.
BS in NC
to LW....i would love for you to elaborate on your sermon idea using Lion King. email if you would mvershel@earthlink.net Peace Marty
Two quick thoughts, early on: The thief asked for Jesus to save himself--and them. Ironically, God saved both--resurrected Jesus, and offered the promise of salvation to us! A point of convergence on thanksgiving and Christ the King--to give thanks means to recognize someone other than oneself as the source of life and blessing, in short, that someone other than one's self is the center of the universe. Thanksgiving is the alternative to idolatry. One cannot confess "jesus is Lord" and also not be thankful! Peace to all...Betsy in OH
His name was George. I met him at Maranantha Ministry, a halfway shelter for recovering drunks and addicts. No doubt, he had once partaken in his fair share of alcohol, and more. And he was certainly no stranger to drugs. Drugs and booze. They had taken their toll on his 60 year old body. Yet after decades of abuse, finally, somehow, he had somehow stumbled into this place. They asked no questions of him, just loved him - loved him real good. The days passed, slowly, like the flow of blood from an open wound, they passed, one second at a time, one minute turning into the next minute, turning into days, turning into months, turning into years … "Easy does it, George, one day at a time."
Eventually he became the manager of the men's shelter, the small white-trimmed brick house which sat across from the larger women's house. I would go there and visit him. No matter how drained I was, no matter the garbage that life would bring, no matter the storms of the struggle, George always could find a way to see the rainbow. Wise George, he could always find the goodness, even in the midst of apparent Hell.
You see, George was well acquainted with Hell. He had lived most of his life there - poor, uneducated, and black - black in a world where blackness held no honor, in a world which had different doors and different seats and different rules and different signs for those who were black. And George, read the signs well. "You aren't worth much around here boy." George, poor, uneducated, black - he learned to hate himself just as much as all those signs said he should. George had been to Hell.
Yet somehow, George had managed to escape that Hell. Maybe it was through that good loving, maybe it was because someone had failed to letter a sign correctly, maybe it was simply because he was just sick and tired of being sick and tired. I never knew how he climbed out of the abyss but somehow he escaped and life broke free. And George, wise George, became a friend to fools like me.
One weekend our small faith community was working on the home of Aunt Hattie, an elderly crippled woman living not far from Maranantha. As we often did, we had invited some of the folks from the shelter to go with us, and George came. George always came.
The house was a nightmare. Great cobwebs covered the walls, billowing back and forth each time someone walked by. They had been turned dark gray by the exhaust from the single kerosene heater. Filth was everywhere and we actually discovered a family of mice living in the dirty and stained mattress on which Hattie slept.
George had chosen the kitchen as his area to clean. I walked in and found him sitting there, right in the middle of floor. He had pulled the stove away from the wall and was cleaning something out from under it. I stepped closer for a better look and saw that he was scraping up rat feces. My stomach churned. I thought I would vomit. George must have noted my momentary discomfort because he looked up at me and gave me a big smile. And he then said something that I will never forget. He smiled and he said, "Isn't it wonderful." Here was a man scraping up rat droppings -- and he smiled and said "isn't it wonderful" with not a bit of sarcasm in his voice. Isn't it wonderful …
George died a couple of years ago. In a world that had rejected him, in a world which had despised him, in a world which had told him we was a worthless drunk, he died. And he died with no bitterness, no resentment, no need to strike out at those whom had battered him with so much hatred. He died hanging on a cross of contempt, hanging on a cross constructed of well heeled self-righteousness, hanging on a cross reserved for those who will never be worthy. He died between two others - those of us who had built that cross and those of us who simply never saw it.
And he looked at us, smiled and said, "Isn't it wonderful." Paradise. No condemnation, only love. Isn't it wonderful.
George, King George, the Christ.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
John in KY, I am going to the Thanksgiving text listed here. Willjoin you there for I feel that I am being led to preach about thankfulness Where in KY. Twice I have served in West KY. I an in TN now STAN
An alternate Gospel text for Episcopalians is the pericope of Luke 19 in which some of Jesus' followers are told to untie a colt for him and he rides throught the streets, with some people putting their cloaks down in front of him. (Palm Sunday) I have decided to use this text for Christ the King -- where is the king? on a great white steed? or a humble donkey? This, too, is a throne from which our Lord reigns. There is probably blance in also offering the Good Friday text as a vuew of Christ the King, but my congregation is at a place where they need to be uplifted -- a lot. Anyone else using this?
HW in HI
As always, Nail Bender - thanks for the stories from life.
kent in Québec
HW in HI -- I am with you -- I, too am using the Palm Sunday text for Christ the King. Let's talk!
To SueCan and everyone else (esp those trying to tie in Baptism): remember that the waters of Baptism are at once life-giving as well as life-threatening. It is a risky thing to walk the Way of the Cross.
Preacherlady
to Mark in Everett WA <<I have a question ... When Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.", is he speaking to one or both of thives? This opens the door to a debate of inclusiveness versus exclusiveness. >>
There are so many who want to see the bad punished and the good rewarded.... so can even claim "I'm going to heaven and you are going to hell"
I am led to believe that God does the untrhinkable ... to the human mind... and says to both thieves ".... welcome home.... you didn't know what you were doing, or saying. I want to wrap my arms around you in Loving Mercy and tell you the GRAND SURPRISE..... yuo will be in paradise with me" it will confuse and baffle religious leaders, especially those who are bent on preaching punishment, ..... but that is ok.... i forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing".
As for baptism... and Christ the King.... what a great combination. At our U Methodist congregation, we had baptism last sunday.... and we use anointing with oil, as well as water and a candle ... and the holy secret. Oil to mark the newly baptised as "Messiah's own" "Christ's own... for the new prince and princess of the Church.. those to be "mesache".... anointed.. what a way to end the year before we get to Pregnant Advent... We have a sung Baptism service and it is joyous for the new members of The Lord's Royal Family .
thanks for the thoughtful contributions this week. Don Hoff, Elmira, NY donaldhoff@aol.com
18 NOV 98
Counterpoint to Nailbender: Americans (U.S.) are not much keen on kings and kingdoms. We began as a nation in opposition to a king--who wasn't a bad guy, but got into some trouble when he opted to require taxes (power) instead of request support from "his" colonies. That king? George III. Brian Stoffergen, Lutheran commentator, reminds us that "kingdom" (basileia) can be a place, and area ruled by a king, and it can be a reign, a power--or beter--and authority. Are we willing to welcome God's rule, as contrarian, unexpected, powerful-in-love and mercy as it is? Or are we set on resisting any king or reign even from the full-of-grace and truth Lord Jesus Christ? I believe I'll toy with the history of George III and the contrast of our King, giving attention to the qualities we can expect in our Lord's rule and authority. Regarding the veracity of the variant verse, 34, we might ask if Christ's last minute offer of forgiveness is consistent with all we know about Him (i.e., use scripture to prove scripture). Would Jesus be more likely to exibit behavior typical of a human paradigm for justice and punishment? Would he likely exert His/God's perogative of vengeance? Would he persist in offering His "kingdom" to the bitter end, refusing to accept "no" to his offer? I know what I believe. Peter in Orange, CA
"Forgive me Father for I have sinned"
I said I'd be gone from DPS a few weeks but it turns out to be a few days. I lied. And I repent. I'm back at the DPS. DPS is the one healthy addiction I don't think I want to be cured from. I was suffering from withdrawal symptoms apparently. Struggling with God's Word is something I apparently need to do.
Hw in Hi,
You asked "where is the king? on a great white steed? or a humble donkey?"
According to Scripture, both. The Luke 19 text displays God, in complete humility as man, riding on a humble donkey. And in Revelation 19, He rides on a white horse, He's called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war against Satan and his minions. I'm sure this will upset those of you who just hate all that judging but it's either the Word of God or it isn't.
Don Hoff in Elmira,
You wrote:
"There are so many who want to see the bad punished and the good rewarded.... so can even claim "I'm going to heaven and you are going to hell"
I am led to believe that God does the untrhinkable ... to the human mind... and says to both thieves ".... welcome home.... you didn't know what you were doing, or saying."
The bad being punished and the good rewarded is a concept called justice. Love cannot exist absent the existence of justice. Yes, I believe God is the final arbiter of justice but not because of anything I feel or am "led to believe" but because God's Word says so.
If we are led to believe anything that is contrary to Holy Scripture we should allow the possibility that we might be led astray. I believe that's humility.
Rick in Va
Part of the
to EAO in WI - in your consideration of thrones, you might want to look at where most preachers sit in the sanctuary - i did a sermon once on thrones and pointed to my own ornate and plush red velvet chair as one - why? what does that say about how congregations view us? about how we view ourselves? about whether we take "servant leadership" seriously? these texts seem very appropriate for the end of the church calendar year - looking back at some of the "hard sayings" of jesus these past weeks, and looking forward to the possibility of birth in the weeks to come. the crown and the cross cannot be separated. nwolc/ct
In the Believer's Bible Commentary, Charles R. Erdman wrote the following:
This story reveals the truth to us that salvation is conditioned upon repentance and faith. However, it contains other important messages also. It declares that salvation is independent of sacraments. The thief had never been baptized, nor had he partaken of the Lord's supper...He did in fact boldly profess his faith in the presence of a hostile crowd and amid the taunts and jeers of rulers and soldiers, yet he was saved without any formal rites. It is further evident that salvation is independent of good works....Again it is evident that there is no "purgatory." Out of a life of sin and shame, the penitent robber passed immediately into a state of blessedness. Again it may be remarked that salvation is not universal. There were two robbers; one was saved. Last of all it may be noted that the very essence of the joy which lies beyond death consists in personal communion with Christ. The heart of the promise to the dying thief was this: "Thou shalt be with me." This is our blessed assurance, that to depart is "to be with Christ" which is "far better."
Excellent 'stuff'!
Rick in Va
To Rev. KK:
While a new car and dog may be "trite" things to be thankful for, if they were gifts given to me which reflect God's love, then they are never trite. The gift from God of my family is never trite. Anything which is given to reflect God's love is never trite and always worthy of thanksgiving because these, like the bread of life, in John's passage, are essential to sustain life until eternal life. That which God freely gives to sustain us certainly worthy of our thanks.
Shalom, John in Ky.
Carolyn Brown, in her book FORBID THEM NOT, which helps us keep worship accesible to children, calls attention to Jesus's only proclamation once he gets to his "throne": "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." That seems to me a worthy focus for worship.
pHil
"Were you there?" Does my King of Kings seek me out in the remote past where I am not? Does Christ the King seek me out in the 'face of George'? Does he seek me out in the depths of my experiential here and now? The power of this sacred story, I believe, does not call me there in somekind of illusion of historicity before it seeks me out in the stuff comprising my life story. I can only be there because this faith story has moved from there by God's grace to connect with my tragedy and my salvation in the eschatological now. Somehow my ending, my death, my despair of living out of hopeless hope, calling 'kings' who are not kings, 'rulers' who are not rulers, 'powers' which are not powerful but nothingnbess, "LIFE"....and deep down I know my faith, my passionate ulimate care/concern has been misplaced....and this life/lie is really 'death' in need of transformation. He was here in all of his unbounding love taking even my despair of self-righteousness into his suffering servant bosom. In 'God-time' he somehow was here in the 'face of George', in the face of significant others, who loved me deep enough that I could begin to see the reflection of an image in their eyes that transcended the worthless, fatherless, child I believed I was. The presence of Christ, i.e., the face of God, has moved from the frozen, forgotten, thereness, to draw near to me even here in my gutter of despair...to love and accept me with the 'silence of eternity' just as I am. The King of Kings even dares seek me out as a revolutionary in an age of democratic post-modernism. His Kingdom is inclusive enough to even include me in spite of all my sickness unto death. The God whose name is "I-AM-NESS" seeks me out in the burning bush which is not consumed finally in ashes, in a cross that becomes the great symbol of life rather than death. Regardless of my escape from God, or self, regardless of my attack on God, or self, regardless of my abandonment of life in preference of death, he still takes my death, my sufffering, as his own...in that silent moment of eternity inclusive of all my moments..he takes my sin upon himself in coming to me in this here and now...and he bids me welcome into his Kingdom. Because he first comes to me in my death, to give me life, in my despair to give me hope, I ccan now say "Yes, I Was there when they crucified my Lord!" Thanks Nailbender for unveiling once again a life story that reached me to the very depths of my being. PaideiaSCO in LA
Kings of Kings where are you now That my eyes seek your face, And my heart wanting warmth Finds ashes grown cold?
Are you in our churches? You, the bridegroom, we the bride? Or do you walk the streets Seeking shelter for the shelterless?
Are you in your palace, safe and warm Bidding us simply to open the door? I heard you’d gone to help the Hondurans Sold your crown for gold for the poor....
Are you American? Do you watch MTV? Do you sit on the sofa and check out Sesame Street? Have you tasted the latte at the new coffee house? Perhaps you prefer i-macs to ibm?
Kings of Kings where are you? You have let us down! Maybe they’d stay for Sunday School If you’d come around....
I got a crown once from Burger King A paper crown for the people I heard your crown lasts forever Longer than our steeple
Come, Lord Jesus and be our guest And show us how to serve Tired consumers want more to life We too have lost the nerve!
Or something like that! Preacherlady – I’m trying! HW in HI
I wonder if Jesus appreciated the title of "king." After all, he doesn't really use it of himself - other than in one gospel where he does say, "My kingdom is not of this world." At other times he is, at the very least, hesitant to have himself described as king (eg. "It is you who say that I am."). Is this really the most appropriate way to think of Jesus? - especially in a society (North American) where the concept of kingship has little significance.
IMG
Rick in Va
You may have missed this posting last week; I apologize to all those i will offend by taking up a few lines to offer it again, but when we leave in a fit of pique, we can damage others:
"Rick in VA I just have to say that I felt persecuted when reading your post--so much so that it makes me not want to ever come back to this site. I am so sick & tired of being told in the name of "Christian love" (i.e. "hate") that my lifestyle is wrong and sinful even though my relationship with my partner is as wholesome and loving (and non-promiscuous) as any heterosexual couple I know, if not moreso. People saying they speak for "the church" have no right to judge as you have done--that's God's job!
Sorry I come across as angry, but I am! I was hoping this would be a safe place, and appraciate that those such as Greg from Nashville are here but I, for one, can find plenty of persecution elsewhere.
Laurie in CA"
Hw in HI,
About baptism and the text: There's a story about an Argentine Church Baptism ritual where the parents, usually the mother, wears black mourning clothes as she presents her child for baptism. Walking though the congregation crying and weeping she carries her child to be marked by God and dedicated to Christian discipleship. She wears black because she knows what the Christian Calling includes: dissappointment, sacrifice, service to all others, probably pain, and often violent death. To be called into radical discipleship - and thus to answer as an adult - is one thing. This is a decision we sort-of freely choose. But to offer our blessed child to a life where the little bambino will have to pick up her/his cross and follow the crucified Lord is quite another. A friend asks new members, in addition to our UMC membership questions, "Do you know what you're getting yourself into?" He does it with a smile, but also with some seriousness. Perhaps the reality of the crucifixion isn't a bad pretext for the worshipping community as we baptize persons into the faith, instead of glossing over everything with talk about "membership". Just a thought.
PW in PA
Rick in VA,
I'd be careful about God not giving salvation without repentence. It's probably a general rule that many would agree with, but it is not as complete as we'd like. For instance, when Jesus says "Forgive them for they know not what they do" the people KNOW what they are doing they just don't grasp the ultimate significance nor do they repent. Yet, Jesus utters these words. There are numerous other passages where Jesus heals, frees, and saves people who were not planning to be healed, didn't ask for it, and do not necessarily demonstrate that they ever repented. It may sell bible commentaries, but it isn't a very Biblical concept. God seems to send his grace in the darndest of ways to the most wayward of folks, and often without the inkling of an invitation. The theif is more the exception than the rule. PW in PA
PaideiaSCO in LA, thank you my friend. You have said so well many of the things which Father Richard Rohr, OFP, offers up in much of his writing. It is not when we get it right that Christ is unveiled, but when we get it absolutely, abysmally wrong -- when we feel the sin and the wrong and the brokeness in the depths of our soul. It is then, through the darkness of our "unbeing" that the Christ comes to us and makes us real - not in our rightness or righteousness, but in the middle and midst of our sin. And further, when we can take that sin, name it as our own, and wear it on our shoulders as a badge which connects us together in all our humanity, in all our communal death - it is then when we have the possibility of being connected together by the overflowing grace of God, when we have the possibility of acknowledging new birth and new life. It is then, when we can rejoice in our commonality and embrace life and know that "I was there when they crucified my Lord!" Amen, my friend, amen.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Rick in Va-
I know what justice is.... i know what sin is i even know what mercy is.... and i am led by Scripture to believe that in the end God has the final say.... and God's Mercy will be the GREAT SURPRISE... I have found that there are a number of preachers who love to thmp the Bible and rant about condemnation and the punishment awaiting folk like the other thief. O that preachers would learn more compassion and humility... not seeing themselves as the spokespersons of the WRATH TO COME. Rick, what does the Scripture lead you to understand about the other thief... the one who "rebuked Jesus"... what do you understand happened to him? Did he get into paradise as well? Don Hoff, Elmira. NY
To Laurie from Calf. I'm so glad that you are still here... that you allow this site to have as full an expression of what a Christian can be... There is such a wealth of personalities and perspectives on this site. where else can this happen?
We know that sometimes people think that others rub them people the "wrong way". Well, when people rub against each other in a gentle way to, it is called a mesage, or a rub down... and it can comfort and soothe.... that what this site does for some as they work on their text, and preaching possibilities. Your statement is straight foward and fair... Hope people can hear what's being said.
I'm sorry for any pain..... happy you are here.
Don Hoff Elmira, NY donaldhoff@aol.com
Re: LionKing/Baptism motif ... When I took my then seven year old son to see "The Lion King" when it came time for the spiritual head of the community (a baboon, we might all note in the interest of pastoral humility)to welcome the new lion cub into the community, he broke open a coconut and wiped the cub's forehead. "HE BAPTIZED THE LION!" my son exclaimed,and I was torn between embarrassment and encouragement ... that he recognized a sacramental occasion when he saw one.
I'm wondering how thrille our Lord is about "Christ the KING" Sunday when, near as I can tell, King is never a title he aspired to, asked for, encouraged or modeled. While King of Kings and Lord of Lords is indeed part of how we understand Jesus (at least in the Gospel According to Handel) to limit Jesus to "King" ... the title given him in derision by Roman soliders -- seems to me to limit the fullness of the incarnation. How much we enjoy labelling and then judging how well those we label live up to our expections: those WE crucify daily for not being all we expect them to be, rather than loving, accepting and encouraging to be who God made them to be.
Rick in VA -- welcome back. RE: "I'd be careful about God not giving salvation without repentence. It's probably a general rule that many would agree with, but it is not as complete as we'd like." What does the Prodigal Son fit in that scenario?
Nailbender -- Gracias
Susan in San Pedro
Laurie, my Sister,
I want you to know that I listen to your words, and, as much as possible, seek to enter into your pain. It is difficult being told that you are unworthy, that you are unclean, that your lifestyle and very existence is sinful - however my sister, it is all true. But my sister, I too am unclean, I too am unworthy, and my lifestyle and very existence is also sinful. So is Rick's, and so is PaideiaSCO's, and so is KK's, and so is Jan's, and so is Hw's, and so is PW's, and so are we all. But sister, listen to the words of our Christ, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Sister, if anything is true, this is it - we are all locked in the realm of death and as Paul says, not one of us, not even one, can say we have not sinned. Of course we have. None of us know what we do, for all of us, each time we despise another, each time we refuse to love, each time we enter into the bitterness of our own broken spirit, each time we do these things, we crucify Christ anew. Each time, we mock him. Each time, we drive the spikes through his hands and feet. And tomorrow, you will still be immersed in sin, and so will we all. And tomorrow, you will stand beside Rick, and you will stand beside me, and together, we three will kill Jesus -- again.
But sister, and I know you know this is true, Jesus reaches across time and space, beyond time and space, and frees us all - perhaps all who come to him and perhaps all who refuse to come. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Father, forgive them - you and me and Rick - for they know not what they do.
Finally, sister, let me offer us a portion of my favorite story - the Velveteen Rabbit. It's a children's story by Marjorie Williams. In it, a toy rabbit and a toy horse are talking to each other and their dialogue contains and communicates much truth about love.
"What is Real?" -- asked the Rabbit one day, as they were lying side by side near the nursery fender, just before Nana came in to tidy up the room.
"Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out handle?"
"Real isn't how you are made "-- said the Skin Horse. "It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY love you, then you become Real."
"Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.
"Sometimes," said the skin Horse, for he was always truthful. "When you are real, you don't mind being hurt."
"Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," the rabbit asked, "Or bit by bit?"
"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of you hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby.
But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real, you can't be ugly except to people who don't understand."
Laurie, you are a beloved child of God, and Jesus -- the Christ who understands -- hangs between us who are condemned justly, and he offers us his love. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
David Nolte, preaching on this text, referred to Jesus and the two thieves in this way:
THE FIRST MAN DIED IN SIN: V39:
THE SECOND MAN DIED TO SIN: VV40-42:
THE THIRD MAN DIED FOR SIN: VV34, 46:
(The entire sermon text can be seen at http://www.proaxis.com/~dnol/3men3Cross3death.html )
Rick in Va
PW in PA and Don in Elmira,
I think we've established clearly that we are on opposite ends of the theological spectrum. What I personally need to work on is how to remain gracious and respectful to those who I perceive to be abandoning the traditional, biblical faith for a unitarian, touchy-feely, post-modern, New Age religiosity. Maybe that's why I can't stay away from DPS any longer than a few days.
My hope and dream is that one day all of us will be sitting in heaven praising and worshipping the God who has revealed Himself to me in dramatic ways but mostly through Scripture. And more importantly, bringing a touch of heaven to our friends and neighbors here and now.
Laurie in California,
There isn't much I can add to Nailbender's eloquence although I don't believe as he puts it that "Jesus reaches across time and space, beyond time and space, and frees us all - perhaps all who come to him and perhaps all who refuse to come."
I'd like to believe that for it would support the idea that hell is empty and heaven is full as others have written. But that idea, in my less than scholarly and less than seminary trained view, contradicts the whole of Scripture.
Laurie, I'm not offended at your anger for I don't believe it is aimed at me or those who believe as I do. Your anger is at the God who inspired or breathed life into the Scriptures.
I hope that you do stay here at DPS. I need you here as much as you need me here. We need each other. But far more importantly, we need Jesus Christ. And it's our sinfulness that defines that need. I'm not into a heirarchy of sin. All of it separates us from God. All of it is what Christ calls us out of.
Luke says it best himself: (Luke 5:31-32 NIV) Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. {32} I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
So please stick around. And join me in repenting of sin and turning to Christ.
Rick in Va
Laurie, Welcome back, sister! srcrocus@earthlink.net (AKA Susan in SanPedro)
PW in PA,
I find it interesting that you take issue so often with my words.... As to this particular week: when I have a choice of scripture, I choose those that seem to call out to where our faith community is at a given point in time.
Perhaps this true story is of interest: I am about 3 years into my time of ordained ministry, having invested somewhat longer than that into responding to God's call. But I am just 5 months into this parish. Over the past almost-20 years, this rural church membership dropped to about 1/4 its former level. The last time there was a Thanksgiving Day service no one came but the priest and organist. The priest collapsed, sobbing on the chancel steps, resigning a few weeks later. There are many stories of the inadequacy of this priest, none of the congregation's co-something-or-other. Clearly this parish is in need of healing and love. I tell them God loves them and they sob. Clearly this parish is in need of some accountability. I tell them that they were in some part responsible for past problems, and they set their jaws tight. We will journey with Christ to the cross this Lent, after I have had some time to know them, after there has been some time for me to walk in their shoes and them in mine.
The Episcopal liturgy takes us through the crucifixion each Sunday, we do not avoid it. Neither do we avoid a confession of sin. But part of the call is trusting in God to reveal the message the faithful need to hear.
Some of my best friends are Methodists. Some I have met right here. I truly value knowing other clergy from other denominations, but my training is in only one, and that is also the denomination of the people I serve. Thanks be to God that He exceeds any denominational attempt to tie him down. Still, I would ask for a modicum of respect for each other's traditions....
HW in HI
OK, here's my problem. I like the poetic rightness of Jesus's "coronation" sided by an example of unbelief and one of faith. Says something to me about each persons need to choose. What to do about Jesus? Claim him as King or join the crowd in derision? I like the thief's example of seeing through all the mockery to be a ble to recognize what is really going on here. To be able to accept this defeated loser of a messiah for who he is. BUT..... how can this guy really be a model for us? What has he got to lose after all? He doesn't have to figure out like we do what it will mean in daily life to call Jesus King! He no longer has competing allegiances like nation, ideology, lifestyle, etc. I'm afraid to put myself, let alone the congregation to a loyalty test. "King" may be an outdated term for us but it still means that Jesus lays claim to more than our warm religious devotion once a week.
pHil
If we can embrace both Laurie and Rick (as well as all the others), continuing to welcome their contributions to this forum and cherishing them as precious children of God, then perhaps we can begin to model a community where Christ truly is king. I'm so glad you're both back!
Bill in SoMD
Rick in Va. you wrote << I think we've established clearly that we are on opposite ends of the theological spectrum. What I personally need to work on is how to remain gracious and respectful to those who I perceive to be abandoning the traditional, biblical faith for a unitarian, touchy-feely, post-modern, New Age religiosity. Maybe that's why I can't stay away from DPS any longer than a few days.>>
Rick I think that you would be more effective if you didn't rush to judgment as a "lumper". I can't understand what you are talking about you saying people are abandoning the traditional, biblical faith for a unitarian, touchy-feely, post-modern, New Age religiosity" why are taking the easy way out using those labels? I doubt if they mean anything to most of us...what can they possibly mean to you? To me they just suggest that you have a position, which you feel strongly about and all others are heretics.
Rick, you have no idea how Biblically centered our positions are, what our Christology is, how traditional we are? It is my impression that as a Progressive Evangelical Catholic (whatever labels are worth), that I am more core traditional than you are Are we not part of many traditions, many Christian views... each feeding each.Don't know how long you've been in the pastorate, but as a brother in Christ I'll say that to me I don't think that posture comes across to me as strength in faith, but arrogance and closed to the Spirit Holy.
If our task as preachers is to proclaim the Great News, and be vessels of Grace.... leading others to be Disciples of Christ, and Friends of Jesus..... then I can't see how knocking others( post modern, unitarian, touchy feely) wins anyone's hearts to the Lord. I'm afraid if you preach the hard line message i hear embeded in your reflections, it will sound less and less Christlike over time.
Perhaps you, like all the rest of us, would benefit from more "touchy feely" faith. That's one of the things Jesus did for us. You could lighten up and and offer a more compassionate Gospelc without "watering down the faith".
Go to this week's text.... what do you hear happening? What stands out in the exchanges ?..... forgivness... rebuke..... counter rebuke... humility, compassion, forgiveness and assurance.... promise of being home with God. Isn't that the heart of this text and at the core of the Great News? Those who don't know any better spend their time judging, rebuking and condeming... while our Savior- Brother Jesus does the unthinkable, the unexpected...... a Great Surprise. Rick, from one who trusts in Christ, believes we need to be centered in the Biblical Faith, I encourage you to go back to the Bible, and explore what it means to yuo to have a Biblical Faith.
Rick-You are on the way... keep movin with us all....... don't run away... you are an important part of the mix.
Don Hoff , Elmira, NY
Good Friends,
I have a confession to make. To the best of my knowledge, Laurie isn't back. I pasted her last posting in place, for I wanted Rick-in-Va to be aware of the damage his words had done. I honestly neglected to indicate adequately that this was a paste, not a new posting from Laurie. Mea Culpa! But my point stands - temendous damage can be done here, as well as tremendous good....
HW in HI
Hollis,
I've attempted numerous times to answer privately to the charge that I have issued damaging words here at the DPS and am receiving error messages stating that your mailbox has been disabled.
Could you check on that as I'm eager to defend privately my position. I'd rather not take up Frank's server space here or waste any more time with this issue.
Thanks,
Rick in Va
I would like to suggest a simple parameter that is used in many 12 step groups to keep participants from "fixing" each other's comments -- and that is, the rule "no fixing." By doing that, it helps keep the sharing free and open and it shows respect for the other person and their beliefs, experience, understanding and journey. One reason, I have heard, for a lot of people outside the church not to be a part of the church is that everybody is trying so hard to FIX (read "Judge")everyone else. Someone else said it this way -- "first take care of the log in your own eye..." etc. This place is too great to start this kind of wrangling. Let's stop a moment to take communion with one another -- share the body and the cup, recognize the presence of Christ in each other, pass the peace and get on with our business! Rick, I'm glad you're back. I don't know why we seem to like to pick on you. (Methinks some of us protest too much! Such anger usually means we are projecting something that actually comes from inside ourselves...and if that is too much like "Psycho-babble" for some, well -- so be it. Why do we have to personalize our comments toward individuals, anyway? Can't we just say what we want to say and let it be?
I was thinking about the Lion King illustration and story -- and remembering another story along the same lines (or lions!) in reference to the Lion (King) in C.S. Lewis's Wardrobe series. The story is something like -- a group of children went to see the play and when the Lion -- what's his name? -- dies the children begin to weep. The mother telling the story said she began to wonder if she had made a mistake by bringing the group of children to the play...wondering if it was too much for them. Then, one of the children says, "don't cry -- He comes back!" That's a poor recollection of the story, which i THINK might be in a Chicken Soup book. Anyway, just thought of it. RevKK
be with me .... in paradise.
Jesus goes to the cross with full conviction that he rests in his Father's love and care; and he invites one criminal to share that divine protection ... be with me. "Be with me" is the meaning of eternal life now. "Be with me" is being accepted when I can't accept myself. "Be with me" even in the valley of death. The silence that one hears when Jesus is confronted by the first criminal is interesting. What does this silence mean? It is a redemptive silence - like when you blurt something out that is absolutely dumb (I do this often) and then finding myself wanting to hide from the crowd. This silence must have a salvific purpose - I can't imagine that he too doesn't hear the forgiveness of God - after all his has not ever heard the good news, he speaks out of ignorance - he utters only words that he has heard others say. How ever the originality of the second criminal is what makes his words so very special and why Jesus responds to him with love at the moment of his own death.
Tom in GA
Crossan makes the point that three times (always significant in scripture) Jesus' claim as king is mocked - by the inscription on the cross, by the religious who stand beneath him, and by the impenitent thief. Finally, they are answered by the repentant thief, who recognizes Jesus' true kingship. Jesus cannot leave the cross to save, as worldly kings would wosh to do. His power is most apparent in his apparent powerlessness. His ability to save depends upon his dying on the cross. As the ancients said, "God reigns from a tree."
- just a few first thoughts Gary in New Bern (garoth@coastalnet.com)
Dear Friends,
SueCan (Nov. 4) It seems that baptism is indeed a dying and rising with Christ. (An apporiate image for Christ the King Sunday) It is a dying to sin, a dying to self - if not physically dying. It seems, too, that the promise God makes - as the water is poured/sprinkled/washed over us - is in a very real way the words of Jesus from the cross: "Today, you will be with me in paradise" for as the water touches our bodies, his words are spoken in our hearing, and we are united to Christ's own life, death and resurrection.
EAO in WI and RevKK, I'm drawn to a theology of the cross with these texts, too, (that God is truly present in the hurts and hopes of people - not just in their successes and victories, that God can and indeed does work for good in all things - even the cross where the best of political and religious life sought to destroy God's Son, that God is indeed our refuge and strength, a very present help in OUR times of trouble, etc.;) and I'm also struck by its paradoxes (that Jesus IS reigning from the cross in some very real, significant way - as he forgives sins and ushers at least one thief into the kingdom. I'm still struggling with making all that stuff come to life - first for myself - and then for my people.
Wes in W.C. ILL, Dr. David Teidi says in his commentary on the Gospel of Luke (Augsburg Series) that these words "Father, forgive them" are most likely authentic - not only because they are included in some very ancient and reputable manuscripts but also because a copier is more likely to leave these words out than to add words of forgiveness for those who crucified Jesus.
Thanks, too, to Paideia SCO in LA and NW in HI for your contributions on Nov. 18th.
Jerry in MN
I'm thinking that there are a couple of ways in which I might take these texts. Last time around, I followed the following progression:
The promise that we have, that Christ is King, and that he will come again one day to establish his kingdom on earth, is one of the most precious promises of scripture. Whatever happens in every sphere of life, at the end, it comes under the rule of His love.
Yet, in distinction from all other ideologies, we also hold that his rule has already begun. We often say, "Yes, I know - it is in our hearts." But we can't stop there. That is only his "throne room." If he is only there, then he is shut off from the majority of life, since most of our decisions are not primarily decisions of the heart.
Jeremiah is a corrective on this. He talks about "sheep-sheerers" who "fleece" their constituiency, and promises a Messiah who would be a good shepherd. The point is, that Jesus' rule is not relegated only to the interior realm or the soul, nor to a distant future. It is in the everyday world in which we live. He does rule in the world, and is bringing his rule to perfect completion. The problem is the one Luther discusses in his explanation of the Third Petition, "His kingdom will come, whether we pray for it or not, but we pray in this petition that it will also come to us."
Finally, he is not a "closet king." If he rules, his rule will be experienced in our life, and his kingdom will extend from us toward the rest of the creation. If he is on the throne, then he will oust the forces in our life that attempt to usurp that throne.
He is promising to us that he will rule. If he rules in us, then we will be one of the means by which his kingdom comes into the world. He has a will for us, and will bring it to perfect fulfillment.
The other way I may go has to do with a larger picture, simply focusing on the largeness and smallness of God, the result of many talks with my two sons, both of whom are very interested in things scientific. The first part would focus on the very largeness of God, imagining our place in the universe - one among 6+ billion people now living, on a planet that is large enough to make us insignificant in comparison. That, in a solar system that makes our earth seem tiny. That, in a galaxy composed of a billion suns, many brighter than ours, in an ever-expanding universe composed of a billion galaxies. And God is yet bigger, dwarfing his creation! A few other interesting facts from astro-physics might be thrown in - such as the one that, if the universe was expanding at even 1 percent faster, life would be impossible. If it were 1 percent slower, the universe would have collapsed back into itself long ago! Or another - that modern scientific theory relies on the premise that what we are able to see, to measure, etc. of the universe is only a very small and shrinking part of "reality." To make sense of what they see requires theories of reality that envision a universe much larger and more complex than we are able to experience!
From the largeness of God to the "smallness" of God: quantum theorists talk unabashedly now about the "search for God." At the sub-atomic level, all matter appears to be the same, and not really "matter" at all, but forces - sometimes even referred to as "mind" or "sprit" by those more esoterically-minded. At the most basic level, matter can act like particles or like waves, held together in unknown bonds. Yet this matter still demonstrates the "butterfly effect" in that what happens to one particle effects everything. Gravity itself is not described not so much as a "rubber band" kind of force, but more like a "rubber sheet," with everything laying on the sheet, responding to the subtle motions of everything else. Whether it is the thought that races through my mind (one thing that they have noticed, is that the mere fact of observation changes what, in fact, happens), or the seemingly random collision of bodies in the universe, it is somehow all connected, and seems to be moving toward an end - a conclusion. This from scientists!
Perhaps our vision of God is too small - once again! Not a grandfather in heaven, a person as we know persons, but something greater - that moves throughout every bit of his creation (we havent even begun to touch on time and eternity!), bringing everything to a perfect completion.
Then, of course, we need to place this over against the powerlessness of God in Christ, as the ultimate revelation of God's power! Wow!
Taken up enough space with my ramblings....
Gary in New Bern (garoth@coastalnet.com)
Wow, when I first joined this scripture forum two years ago. There was hardly anyone on it. Now there are so many people that group dynamics are an issue. Are we witnessing a family fight? Rev. KK is right. If we are to be functional we can't just. I went through this with a whole denomination 10 years ago. The United Church of Canada voted to ordain openly gay and lesbian people. It was an exciting and painful time to be in the church. Sexuality is something that is such a hot topic that emotions go all hay-wire. Maybe we could vow to simply stay away from this topic? And agree to disagree.
I know that this is taking up too much space - sorry. Just wanted to share a few things from my favorite Lucan commentary, Danker's "Jesus and the New Age."
on verse 43: "In answer to the indeterminate 'when', Jesus answers with a solemn oath-like Amen saying: Tlruly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise. The word today carries most of the weight. Not in some apocalyptic future, but in this hour the Son of man assumes his reign, and one criminal is 'taken but the other left.' This 'today' it the climax of many 'todays.' (cf. 2:11; 3:22; 4:21; 5:26; 13:32, 33; 22:34, 61).... This is the characteristic mark of Jesus' kingly activity -- association with the lost. To the end Jesus affirms his mission to publicans and sinners, of such is the Kingdom of God. The unknown outlaw will enjoy the most intimate association, for he will be with Jesus in Paradise. (which he later points out to be a "kingly garden.")
Gary in New Bern
Wow, when I first joined this scripture forum two years ago. There was hardly anyone on it. Now there are so many people that group dynamics are an issue. Are we witnessing a family fight? Rev. KK is right. If we are to be functional we can't judge. I went through this with a whole denomination 10 years ago. The United Church of Canada voted to ordain openly gay and lesbian people. It was an exciting and painful time to be in the church. Sexuality is something that is such a hot topic that emotions go all hay-wire. Maybe we could vow to simply stay away from this topic? And agree to disagree. Kelly in Alberta, Canada
I've gone down the route I originally mused on, comparing the advent wreath to a crown of thorns and talking about the crown of thorns we are offered. One point that hasn't come up here yet, and maybe no-one will agree with me, but I'm suggesting that even the second criminal didn't get it right. He says 'remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom'. The point, surely, is that it is the crucified Christ, with a crown of thorns, who IS king. His kingship involves sharing suffering - he wears a crown to show he is king, but it is of thorns to show that he suffers with us. This, perhaps, is a partial answer to those who find the king imagery difficult - I agree Jesus did too, but not because he rejected it entirely. what he did was to redefine it. Mike T.
Gary in New Berlin-
you said << Jesus cannot leave the cross to save, as worldly kings would wosh to do. His power is most apparent in his apparent powerlessness.>>
thanks Gary for stating that and reminding us... Christ in his powerlessness, we find the strength, which the world can not understand.
Good to hear that others are concerned to welcome members like Laurie and Rick back.
Don Hoff Elmira, New York
To Gary in New Bern, Please dont' apologize for your contribution........it's good stuff. I like the quantum theory especially. I come to this site to find entries like these.......thanks.
To Kelly in Alberta, I too am part of the United Church of Canada, and I agree that group dynamics take on an entirely different flavour when issues of sexuality enter into the discussion. However, I fear that if we make the subject taboo, we will reinforce the notion that our spiritual and sexual selves are separate entities. Also, if those on the polarity of the issues each go to their own corners, there is an opportunity lost for learning from each other. My hope is that we can honour the diversity among us and, as Rev KK suggested, stay away from personal attacks. Perhaps we could try staying with "I" statements and see if that takes some of the sting out of strongly felt opinions. Just a thought.
I'm so sorry that Laurie is no longer on the site. I'll be praying for her, and for her return to our midst.
SueCan
HWinHI,
I'm sorry but I didn't see where I was disagreeing with something you said. I'm not sure what you're referring to. I looked at my post on the Argentine Baptism ritual which I find, personally, a little too penitential and dramatic for my personal tastes (We didn't use this when we baptized our Son this past year). I simply mentioned it to relate a story of how a Christian Community in a "Third World" country (Probably Roman Catholic too). I hope you didn't think I was attacking you in some way, because I can assure you I was not. Actually, I find your comments to be very helpful. Sorry for the miscommunication, PWinPA
Rick in VA- Sure we're [probably on the opposite ends of the "Theological Spectrum" - whatever that is, but I hardly think the first step of meaningful, Christ-centered dialogue starts with referring to another person in derogatory terms. As I waddle around (your words) "abandoning the traditional, biblical faith for a unitarian, touchy-feely, post-modern, New Age, religiosity" my skin just bubbles up with excitement as I read your well-reasoned and ever-so-authoritative comments on the passage. Where does one begin? The "unitarian" perhaps, knowing that it can't be referring to the Unitarian-Universalist Church or else you would have cited that collection of pilgrims appropriately? Or is it my not being of the "traditional, biblical faith"? Well, I think I just roll over some more laughing at being called such nasty things. Gosh I feel like a former professor who was called "Liberal" but half the students and "Fascist-Fundamentalist" by the other. It's a shame you seemingly didn't bother to look into what I may have said, taking a moment to see if I just might have been reading from the same Book when I raised my little comments. Of course, you have your favorite commentary to console you, rather than look around in the Gospel. Personally, I'm just going sit back and enjoy the view from my little glass house. I think the CRASH you heard was my little stone. Your glass house doesn't stand up well to them either.
Just having too much fun on a Thursday night, PW in PA :-) PS: If you ask nicely I might even provide a few Biblical citations.
Enough in-fighting! What's the biblival text about? What is God saying through the scriptures? How is the Holy Spirit calling us to deeper discipleship? What the Great News? These seem like apprpriate questions, don't they?
PWinPA
To Gary in New Bern, Please dont' apologize for your contribution........it's good stuff. I like the quantum theory especially. I come to this site to find entries like these.......thanks.
To Kelly in Alberta, I too am part of the United Church of Canada, and I agree that group dynamics take on an entirely different flavour when issues of sexuality enter into the discussion. However, I fear that if we make the subject taboo, we will reinforce the notion that our spiritual and sexual selves are separate entities. Also, if those on the polarity of the issues each go to their own corners, there is an opportunity lost for learning from each other. My hope is that we can honour the diversity among us and, as Rev KK suggested, stay away from personal attacks. Perhaps we could try staying with "I" statements and see if that takes some of the sting out of strongly felt opinions. Just a thought.
I'm so sorry that Laurie is no longer on the site. I'll be praying for her, and for her return to our midst.
SueCan
I see Jesus Christ as King of the Kingdom. My opening question will be, "What Kingdom?" I was once led to preach a sermon that we Christians see the Kingdom in three ways. We see it as a place, a time and a condition of the heart. The place is the Kingdom of Heaven. The time is when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom on earth. The condition of the heart is the Kingdom we enter when we become a believer. Revup
I recently came across words from Martin Luther that I think are appropriate given this Sunday being "Christ the King" Sunday. Thought I'd share them here for they touched me greatly:
And tho this world with devils filled, Should threaten to undo us, We will not fear for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us. The Prince of darkness grim, We tremble not for him, His rage we can endure, For lo his doom is sure, One little word will fell him. That word above all earthly powers No thanks to them, abideth; The Spirit and the gifts are ours Through Him who with us sideth: Let goods and kindred go, This mortal life also; The body they may kill: God's truth abideth still, His kingdom is forever.
Rick (the DPS's Ken Starr) in Va
Those familiar Christmas carols have many references to Christ our King--possibly bec. it rhymes with "sing". Check them out. I will point out the difference between "our kings", which in this country are more likely to be sports heros or astronauts, and Christ, the Servant King, who never wanted to be an earthly ruler and literallly ran away after feeding the 5,000 in John's Gospel. Only those who made fun of him, Pilate, etc. called him king. We are called to be servants of the servant king--to model his behavior, Mutual encouragement within the community of Christ, along with study, worship, etc. enable us todo that. We will sing "Bind us Together" to affirm that "there is only one King" .
oops. forgot to sign. John in NC
Some of you who are considering using the Lion King music might want to consider which version is most appropriate for your thoughts and setting.
The first version is that sung by Elton John himself. The second is that sung by the young fellow that is most familiar as being part of the sound track from the movie.
I Just Can't Wait To Be King MUSIC BY ELTON JOHN LYRICS BY TIM RICE PERFORMED BY ELTON JOHN Way behind the Water hole A little down the line The jungle and the plains and peaks are scheduled to be mine
I'm gonna be the ruler Of most everything around From the grandest of the mountains To the humble common ground My reign will be a super-awesome thing Oh, I just can't wait to be king
I'm gonna be a noble king So enemies beware! I only need a little time Perhaps a little hair
I'm gonna be the mane event Like no king was before I'm brushing up on looking down I'm working on my roar The fauna and the flora gonna swing Oh, l just can't wait to be king Chorus No one saying do this No one saying be there No one saying stop that No one saying see here Free to run around all day I'll be free to do it my way
No one saying do this No one saying be there No one saying stop that No one saying see here Free to run around all day Free to do it my way
The time has come As someone said To talk of many things This may be true But I would rather stick to talking kings
It's easy to be royal If you're already leonine (lee-o-nine) It isn't just my right Even my left will be divine The monarchy is waiting to go zing Oh, I just can't wait to be king Oh, I just can't wait to be king I Just Can't Wait To Be King
MUSIC BY ELTON JOHN LYRICS BY TIM RICE PERFORMED By JASON WEAVER WITH ROWAN ATIKINSON AND LAURA WILLIAMS I'm gonna be a mighty king So enemies beware! Well, I've never seen a king of beasts With quite so little hair
I'm gonna be the mane event Like no king was before I'm brushing up on looking down I'm working on my roar
Thus far, a rather uninspiring thing Oh, I just can't wait to be king!
No one saying do this No one saying be there No one saying stop that No one saying see here Free to run around all day Free to do it all my way
I think it's time that you and I Arranged a heart to heart
Kings don't need advice From little hornbills for a start
If this is where the monarchy is headed Count me out Out of service, out of Africa I wouldn't hang about This child is getting wildly out of wing Oh, I just can't wait to be king!
Everybody look left Everybody look right Everywhere you look I'm Standing in the spotlight
Let every creature go for broke and sing Let's hear it in the herd and on the wing It's gonna be King Simba's finest fling Oh, I just can't wait to be king! Oh, I just can't wait to be king! Oh, I just can't wait to be king!
My reseach puts the origin of Christ the King Sunday in the decade of the 20's, but a different century. 1625 Pope Pius initiated the day. Always existed to emphasize the tension between Church & state It was later on that it was moved to end of the church year.
Mark
I'm an often reader and seldom contributor - but I really wanted to share a few general thoughts today. First, it occures to me that because of our pride we have trouble seeing that there are fewer true Christians then we think on earth and more saved in heaven then we would ever guess. I have no trouble with the fact that many will choose self and sin over Jesus and end up in eternal seperation from God - yet, I can't help but believe that since God's grace is sufficient, Hell will be quite empty compared to heaven - after all, it is God's will that we not perish and God's likes to see his will accomplished.
Thanks to the contributer who wrote about Quantom physics - did any one see George Will's comments on the subject in Newsweek a couple weeks ago?
On the homosexual issue, I believe with Rick and others that it is a sin, however, if we refused to accept sinners, our churches would be empty.
I've got to go, but I may write more later,
blessings,
DN in AZ
I would like to take everyone on a different route. Maybe another way to look at the Luke passage is to take into account the consistent theme throughout the gospels--that quite often things are reversed. That is the first become the last; the way to stand tall is to kneel down; the way to keep is to give; the way o live is to die. The passage from Col. says "He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation....He is before all things and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church the beginning , the first born from the dead... Yet Luke has all this glory, all this power hanging on a cross between two convicted crimminals. This kingship is the greatest reversal of the gospels.
I wonder if we have not sanitized the Christ so much that we have removed him from the darkness of our own lives, which is the very territory he came to save. So we come to church, sing the hymns, pray for those in the hospital, but there is this part of ourselves we leave at home. We keep Christ at a distance and because of that we do not know what it means to be transformed.
The great reversals of the gospels are our reversals also. The One who hung on a cross, who died because of the world's sin, who continues to be crucified because of your sin and my sin, is the one who breings God's reversal inot our lives.
John in PA
Kelly: With all due respect if we "vow to simply stay away from this topic?" I believe we deny the power of the Spirit to be present even in our disagreements. How can we authentically engage in a congregation where our members hold a variety of opinions if we can't be free to engage authentically in our conversations here? "Agree to disagree" by all means, but let's not be afraid of the conversation. (Which, our Episcopal Presding Bishop reminded us recently, has the same root as the word "conversion."!)
Rick - Thanks for the Martin Luther plug ... precisely how I'm starting my sermon Sunday and how I illustrated Christ the King in chapel for my Day School children yesterday. Maybe we agree about more things than we disagree about. What a concept! Blessings, Susan in SanPedro
Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between reign of Christ and reign of God. One commentary pointed out that the hymns we choose should make referrence to kingship of Christ and not the kingship of God. My head is swimming. I wanted to link my sermon to last week's sermon with was Eschatology: part one the second coming, part two was supposed to be the reign of God and part three is supposed to be the cruxifiction. Help. Kelly, Alberta, Canada.
20th November 20:20
Hi, This is the first time I am contributing to the discussion, although I frequently read through it to spark off my thinking.
A useful snippet is that the sign that was put on the cross saying, "This is the King of the Jews," when looked at in Ancient Hebrew, the first letters of each word read J H W H. You may know that the Hebrew language didn't make use of vowels and in fact J H W H was the way in which they wrote YAHWEH who is God. And so, in fact the sign that was erected acknowledged Him as not only the king of the Jews but also God.
Hope that will help Nigel in darkest Africa
DN in AZ,
You've echoed my thoughts, except more eloquently than I could...
I too want to believe that Hell will be empty (and Hell as I define it is anywhere where God isn't). However Justice (as pointed out in the Scriptures) will ensure that it won't be, sadly and tragically. Rejecting Christ as the substitutionay payment for our sinful lives demands that we pay in the final Judgment. Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
I missed the George Will column in Newseek... What issue was it? I'm reading a book now on Science and Christianity that is fascinating and thought provoking (I can't remember the title at the moment). I've also read through Michael Behe's Inside Darwin's Black Box and found it most interesting. Mr. Behe is a Catholic (far removed from so called fundamentalism) and yet hits the idea of macro-evolution very hard indeed.
Nigel in darkest Africa,
My brother, I would beg you to contribute more often here at DPS for I truly believe that God is moving powerfully in your midst and we here in fat, dumb, and happy America could truly use your insights. Please!
Susan in San Pedro,
I believe Christ is my Savior, I believe He is yours. We may disagree on many things but it means nothing if we remember the Main Thing, which is to keep the Main Thing the Main Thing... Thanks for the thanks...
'Nuff thoughts,
Rick (You can call me Ken) in Va
Mark: Thank you for your posting of November 20th regarding your research on the origins of the Feast of Christ the King. You mentioned that it was inaugurarted by a Pope Pius in 1625, and not in 1925 by Pius XI, as I stated earlier in my prior posting of several days ago. Mark, Urban VIII was pope in 1625. His years as pope were 1623-44. Perhaps there was a typo in your source, reading 1925 as 1625. Yes, you were correct that the church/state relations were a major issue. Such concerns loomed large in the writings of Pius XI. In the 1920's we saw the rise of fascist states, such as in Spain, communism, such as in Russia, and the emergence of secular states, once very Catholic, such as in France. The USA was at a cross road itself, as radical capitalism and racism were distorting the religious ideals of the young democracy. As I researched the life of Pius XI in preparing my previous posting on the subject of the Feast of Christ the King, I came to discover Pius XI as an avid scholar and concerned pastor. Yes, his writings were cast in the prevailing Catholic ecclesiology and pieties of his era. For my Protestant sisters and brothers, who may take the time to read this posting, Pius XI was a pioneer in "things ecumenical." His encyclical MORTALIUM ANIMOS (On Relogious Unity - 1928) brought Catholic thinking to acknowledge the seminal ecumenical movement among Protestants world-wide as they gathered for their initial Faith and Order conferences. His encyclical MIT BRENNENDER SORGE (1937), written in German and not the tradtional Latin, was a challenge to the German Reich, under Hitler, to tend to the ideological madness of its ways. Recently, it has been made public that at the time of his death on February 10, 1937, Pius XI was preparing a draft of an encyclical on racism, aimed at that vice, especially as it was practiced in the United States. In modern reckoning Pius XI is regarded as an obscure pope. Yet, he was a Christian, who tried to fulfil his Petrine role as Bishop of Rome in the historical context of his age. He was a sincere believer that Chrust, the Crucified King, had a vision for the nations which the political powers needed to heed. I hope that these historical reflections may foster an ecumenical understanding and appreciation among all of us, who will proclaim the spirit of our comon Scriptural texts this weekend. Again, Mark, thank you. Peace, Gregory in Dot, MA
To those who are frequent contributors to the DPS site: Please try to resist the temptation to talk to each other about matters not relevant to the textual study. As important as they are, this can be done privately. Care for the rest of us, too. The DPS site is the best I've found so far, and I'd hate it if it became like so many others, with very little sermon work. It's probably too late to contribute this, especially at the end of 50 pages of stuff already, but a fruitful idea for Christ the King might be hero-worship. Canadian Ralph Milton says in his book "Angels in Red Suspenders" regarding the worship of sports heroes: "They (couch potatoes) do not resent the chosen few who are elevated to the status of high priest or superstar. To them goes laud and honor and glory and riches. And when injury and steroids destroy even these, they are canonized. They becomes saints, their visage and their sacred relics hung in the Hall of Fame. From generation unto generation, fathers take their sons in pilgrimage to this most sacred shrine. With breaking voices and trembling fingers, they point to these saints of sport, saying "Believe it, son. That was a real man." We seem so eager to worship and glorify our human heroes, yet the Sir Galahads and Prince Charmings turn out to have feet of clay and faces covered with mud. At one time or another, John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Ferdinand Marcos, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, uncelibate priests, etc., were all put on a pedestal, and at the time of their glorification, hardly anyone would listen to any criticism of their heroes. When they fell from grace or got caught in a scandal, it was as if their (or our) god had died. Or they refused to believe the bad news. There are Germans still today who can't believe their hero Hitler was a bad guy. There was only one hero with an unblemished character, J.C. himself. The more we uncover about this Hero, the more our estimation of him rises. Wonderful description of him in the Colossians 1 lesson. Yet he was a disappointment to everyone when he left the earth. People stood at the cross scoffing and mocking. Like other criminals crucified, he probably couldn't control his excretions any longer. It's hard to imagine a greater shame than to be crucified. He was an anti-hero, described archetypically in Isaiah 53 as hard to look at. The Emmaus disciples were disillusioned, saying, "We had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel." Too bad. What a downfall. Jesus answer was: "Fools! This was your hero's destiny! It was necessary..." Only one person recognized Jesus as the world's greatest hero-- the poor beggar on the cross next to him, who said, "Jesus, remember me. . . " Where does greatness lie? King's thrones are now empty. The cross is now empty. But he is alive and reigning, and before him every knee will bend, says Paul. If you have any stories or illustrations of heroes or dignified ones losing their dignity, I'd love to hear them and maybe use them. Thanks. Jim from B.C.
Gary in New Bern: As a Catholic educated in a more abstract philosophical understanding of "cosmology", I found your recent posting a poetic delight written in the imagery of current science. I think that a christian meditation on this wonder, which you aptly described, will continue to underscore Bibical truths (revealed). Yes, this cosmological wonder is indeed a "creation." It has not only a teleological reference (end-point/purpose), but aslo an etiological reference (cause/begining). The sixteenth century Enlightenment began the fracture of the link between faith and reason. Perhaps, the scientific, philosophical and cosmological musings of seekers and believers may once again lead to the harmonizing of reason (in its modern guise as science) with faith (revelation). Yes, the creating God of eternity, gives us clues in the eons, which we mortals called "time", and in the rhythms, which we call "modern astro-physics"...The "reign of Christ", which we celebrate, reveals the order of sanctity and grace amid the apparent chaos of our moral failings, both the on-going "original" sin of our cultures, social arrangement and economic preferences, and our own personal sins, written "petty". Gregory in Dot, MA
Dear all,
I'm not a frequent poster, although I am here a great deal, reading and absorbing. I was struck for the prayer for us (and others) by Jill over at the prayer site. She's praying for civility.
I'm taking the liberty of posting my concurring prayer here.
Our gracious Lord, who ate with sinners and cared for the lost,
Grant that we who use the world wide web to converse may remember that we carry on this dialogue in your presence. Let us not be unloving or ungracious to sisters and brothers in faith. Let us be a fitting witness to seekers who are participating in or watching our conversations.
Let them see how we Christians love and care for each other, not the opposite. Help us to remember, Lord, that none of us in our finitude and weakness has a full understanding of you and your work among us. Help us to be humble, and to be gentle to those with whom we must express disagreement.
You are the Lord of unity and of truth. Let us not forget our unity as we strive to seek the truth of your Word together.
AMEN
Little children, let us love one another, for love is of God, and every one who loves is born of God and knows God. . . .for God is love. (I John 4:7-8)
ST
Don't have time to read all the postings but will thrown in a comment in response to someone's idea about us Americans being generally opposed to kings. I've used the term here before but I want to lift it up now for special use this Sunday; I borrow it from my friend Lisa: "kin-dom." Seems that the "king of the Jews" transforms the kingdoms of this world to the kin-dom of our God, don'tcha think? Blessings - Kay
John in PA- I see that you have a hair trigger on that keyboard.... don't take yuor gun to town son, leave your gun at home.....
relax John.... trust that your message is getting across..... first you gave us 4 copies of one posting.... but that's ok.... that's symbolic of the accepted Gospel writers.... then you gave us 7... all seven of them.... but then that is a perfect number isn't it?
to Jim in BC- read your piece, and I guess there is a difference of opinion as to how one prepares for a sermon..... consider this as a living commentary.... persons trying to see the application of the text on the life of the preacher and the people..... others may think that that is distracting... or in some cases that discussions are going off in a direction which is not seen as helpful to their prepartion... you posted quite a long piece... and each will have read and decide whjat it says to them..... keep on writing Jim..... I wouldn't limit any contribution...
for PWinPA- Like the account of the Argentine Baptism..... can you recall where you heard that? Just a correction.... the word "bombino" is Italian not Spanish.... where the word is bebé, nene, or nińo.... true, there is a high percentage of citizens of Argentina and Uruguay.... but Spanish is the idioma.. To be accurate... don't think you want to refer to either Argentina nor Uruguay are not Third World countries. Me gusta el cuento! I Like the story anyway!
For this text.... I wonder if any of you are familiar with the music we use from Taizé: "Jesus Remember Me .... Jesus remember me, when you come into your kingdom, Jesus remember me, when you come into your kingdom. think you'd love it.... by the way.. Taizé music is a good resource for many churches since it is people directed, not choir-performance directed... our Taizé service last night drew a wide spectrum... including 7 Unitarians.
Don Hoff, Elmira, NY donaldhoff@aol.com
(here it goes John.... only once)
.... sorry John...sent that too soon!
correction should be.."the word "bambino" is Italian not Spanish.... where the word is bebé, nene, or nińo.... true, there is a high percentage of citizens of Arg entina and Uruguay who are of Italian decent.... but Spanish is the idioma.."
ooops...."leave your guns at home son..."
In the light of the annoyance expressed by Jim in B.C., I would like to re-direct my two postings of Nov. 20th.... Thus, instead of "to Mark"; it should now read "to Mark and others who may be reflecting on the asigned Scriptural texts for Sunday in the context of the Feast of Christ the King." ( All please note that much time was put into composing my posting of 20 Nov 13:53:14; as well as attempting to be sensitive to my sisters and brothers in reform or free church traditions who might just be interested in some background on the Feast. Preaching the assigned Scriptural texts within an ecumenical appreciation, if not a liturgical setting, just might be a refreshing experience for our congregations.) My posting "to Gary in New Bern" (20 Nov 15:00:56) should now read to Gary in New Burn and DPS viewers who bring a philosophical flare to their preaching of Scriptural texts" Finally, Jim in B.C., if you want an example of a "hero out of grace," (at least a hero to this Catholic priest and DPS participant), please read my posting above about Pius XI. His tragedy? No one listened to him, thus World War II. Gregory in Dot, MA
"Father forgive them because they don't know what they are doing." Wait a minute. How can anyone have forgiveness if they don't repent -- don't acknowledge their sin and cast it down! What about judgement? What about just desserts? Why didn't I notice this earlier in the week when I would have had time to develop the thought before Sunday! Can this really be about abundant grace far beyond anything we can ask for or imagine? Can God's forgiveness extend even to those things we're too ignorant to know we're doing? Sounds like mighty "Good News" to me! Susan in SanPedro P.S. Rick in VA -- "The Main Thing is to Keep the Main Thing the Main Thing" is a much treasured bumper sticker currently residing on my refrigerator! Blessings!
Nail-Bender, as always, thank you. I still want you to be my pastor!
Thanks to those who researched the origin of Christ the King. (Don Hoff -- I was sure you were a UM District Superintendent!!) This will help with my sermon, which takes an entirely different tack than any of yours. I am pointing out that we pay too little homage to Christ in most everything we do. We are so intent on our own accomplishments, our possessions, etc. that we forget to thank the one from whom they came.
Has anyone noticed that it's perfectly okay to teach Chaunaka (sp) in public schools, and Santa and Reindeer but NOT CHRISTmas? I am seriously debating writing my local school board and asking for equal time. Not that I believe Chaunaka and Kwanza and Ramadan shouldn't be taught, I just want equal time so my children can be proud of their religion, too. ANWAY.
I'm starting my sermon talking about the tension between our American civil-religious celebrations (Thanksgiving in the States) AND our need, as Christians to honor Christ the King. Wish me luck.
RevJan
Gregory in DOT MA,
I appreciated the CHurch History lesson, very much... keep that stuff coming!
Don Hoff,
I really appreciated that last post... sarcastic wit used to edify is much appreciated...
ST,
I much appreciated your prayer, at both sites.
Susan in San Pedro,
I would love to delve into the depths of that last post... and I'm glad to see that we continue to find that which brings unity.
To the mystery poster at 21:16:24 (is that you RevJan?),
Try again, it seems that someone unplugged you in mid post...
To all at DPS,
It is truly good, really good, to be here and share Christ... I mean that more than you folks will ever know.
Rick (call me Rick) in VA
RevJan,
The problem apparently was on my side (he said sheepishly) for as I refreshed, lo and behold, there you were.
As my kids would say... My bad!
Rick in Va
Since this is UMC Bible Sunday, I am using three points, the third to point out the importance of the Bible and studying thr Bible. First, we need to realize that we need try to forgive others, if we are to follow the teachings of Jesus. There is a second vital message for us in the passage, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." That message is a that it is easier to forgive someone when we consider they do not know what they are doing. There is also a third vital message in the passage, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." That message is we need to learn about this Jesus Christ and His Christianity, so that we do know what we are doing. Revup
haven't had time to read all the contributions yet -looks briefly like another battle. i am definitely desperate this week. Please God, help. I kept thinking of the movie, It takes two" where the junk yard kids tease the little girl because she says she is really this rich child, give her a toilet plunger as a scepter, commode as a throne, and then the helicopter which traces her down swoops dowm and gets her.
the other thought is that we are victros - champions - as inheritors in Christ, the king. are we living as victors or victims? thanks to all on the history and all - didn't know it, and just happen to be having 2 baptisms this day, and we have communion every week - need to be drawn back frequently.
blessings to whoever still reads this late, rachel
Who are these criminals: one who mocks and one who reaches out to Jesus?
They both dwell deep within me. I so desperately seek security, power, and wealth. I want to do things on my own. I want to be a MAN! So Jesus come on down from that cross and save me. I am also recognize my deep hunger and emptiness, I desire God to forgive me, renew my life, and want him to remember me. I cann't separate these two. The are two expressions of people before royalty, especially a royalty that finds its throne, the Cross.
Tom in GA
Who are these criminals: one who mocks and one who reaches out to Jesus?
They both dwell deep within me. I so desperately seek security, power, and wealth. I want to do things on my own. I want to be a MAN! So Jesus come on down from that cross and save me. I am also recognize my deep hunger and emptiness, I desire God to forgive me, renew my life, and want him to remember me. I cann't separate these two. The are two expressions of people before royalty, especially a royalty that finds its throne, the Cross.
Tom in GA
Who are these criminals: one who mocks and one who reaches out to Jesus?
They both dwell deep within me. I so desperately seek security, power, and wealth. I want to do things on my own. I want to be a MAN! So Jesus come on down from that cross and save me. I am also recognize my deep hunger and emptiness, I desire God to forgive me, renew my life, and want him to remember me. I cann't separate these two. The are two expressions of people before royalty, especially a royalty that finds its throne, the Cross.
Tom in GA
Just a note to Nailbender - I hope that some time you will open your own site and post your sermons. I think the rest of us would like to see the final results of your wonderful musings!
Gary in New Bern, NC
It is late and I have added several thoughts already. But as I continue to reflect it seems to me that it only when I move out of myself, only when I repent, metanoia, only then do I hear acceptance from God. As long as I live in myself, secure in my own belief or others, and not radically trust I remain in darkness. Not the darkness of God, but of my own choosing. Here I am lost. Only when I cry out can God save. This is one of the differences between the unrepentant criminal and the forgiven criminal. Are we not all criminals sentenced to death until we cry out Lord remember me ... It is then that my life is transformed from the realm of darkness to the Kingdom of our Lord.
Tom in GA
to RevJan
Amazed to thought of as a DS.... never sought it, never would..... if nominated will not run, if elected will not serve......
Ask my DS if I should follow him in 2 years! thanks for thinking those thoughts..... I think.... All you out there... keep those thoughts flowing.... after all thise exchange, i have decided to preach on the John text for Thanksgiving.....
much of the food has been appreciated...... sounds like the site is becoming a kinder, gentler site... anyone else sense that?...
Don Hoff
To Rachel,
Thanks for your story, it is perfect for where my sermon is going.
Nail bender, Your story on King George is amazing. Where do you get this stuff. You are a gifted story teller. Thank-you.
Kelly in Alberta
A late night thought--
When I was being taught how to receive Holy Communion (in the Episcopal Church)I remember being told to use my left hand to make a throne for my right, because it was about to receive a king.
Greetings from a CA Intern preaching 2nd "real" sermon! Thanks to skm in ca for your prayers and help. Also thanks to Don Hoff in Elmyra NY and Nailbender in the great state of NC for their insights and pastoral guidance. blessings to you all tomorrow! steph
My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me? And why art thou so far from hearing the words of my roaring? The Lion hath roared.