The first couple of these verses remind me of the saying, "The church is what you have left when the building burns down and the preacher leaves town." Are our congregations living as the body of Christ, or are our beautiful buidings more important (or our elaborate programs, etc.)?
Right now I don't know what this has to do with the rest of the passage, but it just came to me.
Mel in NE
When I read verse 9 " When you hear about wars and revolutions, do not be frightened ", I am stopped cold with the events of September 11th.
I think about the Christians in Germany in WWII with Hitler. For them the historical events must have moved more quickly than their faith could accommodate...except for a very few. The Christian Church majority was silent
Today, What is the voice of the Christian majority? Should we be listening to the majority or the minority....Jesus wasn't a majority kind of person because the majority, in his time seemed to be looking after their own interest,not the common interest.
I think I have to ask if " my " interest is in the common interest?
I don't think that the " Christian " interest in the U.S.A. is automatically the " common " interest.
I, just, think that Jesus would not be bombing Afganistan...hitting innocent people. Period! There is something about this war which doesn't correspond to my faith and I don't feel unpatriotic to my country, the U.S.A.
I remember my first trip into New York City. We stayed underground untill we were just under Rockerfeller Center. Being from rural Montana, when we saw the magnificent buildings, our mouths dropped.
"As for these things that you see, the days will come when not one stone will be left upon another; all will be thrown down."
Steve Hermes Cascade Mt.
What does it mean that God protects us in the last couple of verses of this lesson? Those are pretty important words to our people these days.
JB in MB
Last Sunday I preached on our security being in the God of the living, and living confidently toward "resurrection life."
This seems so similar. We put our faith in what we can see, touch, hold... But our salvation and ultimate safety/security is in the Lord... The passage seems to say cling fast and do not fear, in spite of all that goes on around you. And don't be AFRAID to CHALLENGE what is EVIL; again, our ultimate hope is in the Lord, not the physical "stuff."
Anything else?
Deb in the 'burgh
There seem to be two common threads in all this week's lessons: that of the need for working for the Lord in good times and in bad and the promise of the hope that is a product of our ultimate security in God.
Early thoughts, no preaching theme yet!
Sally in GA
P.S. Please pray for my family and me; we buried my father last week.
JB in MB -
I see this as pointing towards the security that our lives are entirely in God's hands, and that in Christ we have the courage to face the most painful and frightening times in the steadfastness of God's love.
Sally in GA
JB in MB -
I see this as pointing towards the security that our lives are entirely in God's hands, and that in Christ we have the courage to face the most painful and frightening times in the steadfastness of God's love.
Sally in GA
What can be said, or needs be said about verse 14: "So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance;"?
I think some folks, and lots of folks in some situations, tend to get defensive. I do. That is when we quit witnessing to what we know and have experienced, and start arguing against what we don't and haven't. I can't tell you where your religion is wrong, at least not in any sense you are likely to accept. But I can tell you what Christ has done in my life and why my confidence is in Him, and maybe you will hear in your heart God saying "I have that for you too".
When we spend all our time concentrating on negatives, or preparing for debates that don't ever arise, we are wasting our time and God's blessings. Find the good thing to say and say it. Better yet, live it. If our faith needs defending, trust God to give us the words, at that time, that will speak to that person.
Can anyone add a thought about that? tom in TN(USA)
In light of 9/11, I've really been struggling with this... now with another air disaster in NYC (AA Flt. 587 crashed in Queens this morning) I am really having a hard time reading, "But not a hair of your head will perish" and making sense of it.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I was down near ground zero today, just 30 minutes after the plane crashed in Queens. The fear was palpable, voices muffled, almost silent walking, the smell is still there, smoke lingers in the air, the tangled mess of steel is a visual reminder of the terror-now it is two months later and the lectionary is dealing with hope in the face of seeminly insurmountable obstacles. Isaiah - hope that a new heaven and earth will be created, hope that God remains with us in all adversity. The people of my congregations (I serve two churches) are seekig hope and some form of certainty. We know that the only certainty and constancy is God, yet, how to communicate that in a way that is heard through the fear and anxiety. I am searching.
Rev E.
In the book of Revelation in Chapter 1:14 it describe One like the Son of Man. "His head and His hair were white like white wool (as white) a snow. If we think about hair in a symbolic way perhaps we could understand .... He did not parish ...He gain his (our) soul so to speak. Just some thoughts.... LPinPA
I think that the text is talking about persecution for the sake of the faith. That God will give the words, not to rely upon ourselves. No matter how horrible the events of the day our security lies in Christ. Nothing else. Period. vvicars in pa
I think that the text is talking about persecution for the sake of the faith. That God will give the words, not to rely upon ourselves. No matter how horrible the events of the day our security lies in Christ. Nothing else. Period. vvicars in pa
An opportunity to testify! Great. In a big church service? On TV? No, in fact you'll be in front of kings and governors. Fantastic! They'll really roll out the red carpet. Well, actually you'll be responding to a threat of death or life imprisonment. Now that's what I'd call a desperate preacher. Peace, Petereo
To Sally, Prayers are with you and yours....I too lost my beloved father at this time of the year (6 years ago).....Thanksgiving, Advent and Christmas will be difficult AND a wonderful authentic connection with the resurrection.
Blessings Child of God. REV SLPE NY
Sally-Ga My smpathy on your loss. I have not lost a parent yet. I can only imagine. May your memories and your faith be of strength and comfort to you in these times of sadness. grace and peace, Nancy-Wi
Two images to "play" with while working on a sermon this week... both from Jeanie Moos's CNN report this morning:
First image: Women in the Rockaway neighborhood of Queens donating their linens (bed sheets, table cloths) to be used as shrouds for the dead from the crash of AA Flt. 587; a large pile of sheets near a fire truck waiting to be used....
Second image: Arching over the scene of destruction, visible through the smoke of the burning plane and houses and through the steam rising from the fire hoses' pouring water, a rainbow in the blue sky above.
Somehow both of these witness to endurance ....
Blessings, Eric in KS
By the way ... the RCL provides for the use of Isaiah Ch 12 (the First Song of Isaiah) as an alternative to the Psalm. As we used Ps. 98 last week in our Mass, we will be taking that alternative in my parish. The 2nd V. of Isa. 12 (in the American Episcopal BCP version) reads thusly:
"Surely, it is God who saves me; I will trust in him and not be afraid."
This ties very neatly with this lesson, don't you think?
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS to Frank -- Why doesn't DPS give us the alternatives in the RCL? Perhaps not discussion sites, but at least the references and texts.... it would be helpful.
Dear 21:18:18 Maybe you should take a good look at the Old Testament and how often God told the Israelites to annialiate their enemies. Then Look at the judgement that is comming in Revelations. There were six thousand innocent people in the towers and on those planes. tell me who else but the USA would drop food for their enemies as well as bombs ang go out of their way to spare the lives of innocent people. Harold in Alabama
Since this is the sunday before thanksgiving, I really want to preach a bit on blessings and thanks. Anyone else going that direction? I the confidence to take on all unbelievers with out preparation a blessing? Opportunities to testify are blessings. Are we only blessed by material things? Is being blessed feeling good, right with God. Just a train of thought here. Nancy-Wi
Harold in Alabama wrote: "who else but the USA would drop food for their enemies"
Let's be clear ... we are NOT dropping food for our enemies. We are dropping food for innocent Afghans who have been victimized by the Taliban extremists; we are dropping food for innocent Afghans whose country has been used as a base by the Al-Qaeda terrorists. We are NOT dropping food for the Taliban or the Al-Qaeda. Perhaps we should ("love your enemies" and all that) but we aren't.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Sally,
We have been praying for you and your Dad and will continue to lift you up during this season of grief.
pastor binny
Nancy-WI Yes, I am wanting to preach on Thanksgiving this Sunday. I am really struggling with keeping with the text in Luke. I want to thank all of you for your wisdom and insight. I visit here each week and gleen the pearls from with-in. I usually don't feel I have much to contribute, but maybe some day. I just started preaching in June so I am pretty green. Thanks to all and Have a Happy Thanksgiving! HBinTX
Dear Sally in GA,
May God comfort and sustain you and your family in your time of grief; and may the promise and hope of the resurrection heal your pain and regrets, and magnify the celebration of your father's life. Grace and peace be with you.
And to all the desperate preachers: Thanks for the images and discussion so far. One of the things I find myself thinking about is something from out there in the world that I read yesterday about hope. It was an article about someone named BION who has developed a theory about how groups work, and includes the dynamic of "basic assumptions," one of which is all about hope. He says that hope ceases to be hope when the things hoped for become manifest, or get born. His article actually presents it as a negative (at least for the life of a group), but maybe that's when it becomes faith. Anyway, it seemed just a little too synchronistic to me (as opposed to coincidental) when I'm focusing this week on the "hope" of gaining our souls by our endurance, for this article to just come to me.
I apreciate the contribution about looking at this passage in light of it being Thanksgiving Sunday, and the response about preparing defenses being a waste of time and blessings when we could much better be living our faith.
I have a sense that the direction I'm going with this is about hope and endurance and gaining our souls, but it's not very clear yet. I suppose I might start with the human condition that faces endings . . .
Forgive me if I ramble. I hope someone finds some of this useful. Again, thanks for your thoughts.
Janice in Ks
Hello, This is my first contribution to this site. I am wrestling with the issue of economic downturn for many of my parishioners here in suburban Chicago. My senior pastor reported last night at church council that three more members of St.Andrew's were laid off. We are seeing offerings go down week by week since September 11th. At the same time we are considering a building program, and yet we cannot find anyone enthusiastic about doing evangelism. It seems we have lost a vision of what it means to be the church. And yet there in the gospel lesson from Luke Jesus says "This will give you an opportunity to testify."(Luke 21:13) Members are reevaluating their priorities. Some of our laid off members are giving of their time and talents to various task forces. I see members taking the time to "testify" in the midst of uncertain economic times. Rambling on in northern Illinois
To Rambling in N. Il.
Keep the faith. Perhaps those laid off with extra time on their hands could engage in ministry. How about visiting some of the older members who appreciate visits, or a telephone ministry to young families or those recovering from illnesses. While being laid off will have some economic effects this might also be a good time to speak to people about being in ministry.
Just a thought. Paula in Fl
The sound of the shovel once again rang off the concrete like ground. A hundred, a thousand, ten thousand times the bladed edge of the makeshift-digging device bit into the rocky earth. The sweat poured from his lean features, mixed with the blood from raw hands, and then dripped to the dust below, the dust that exploded upward like little angry cyclones each time the spade made contact with the unyielding ground. The digging would have been difficult for the most fit, but for him, for a body battered by lack of proteins, for a spirit assaulted by the maelstrom that swirled around his world, the digging wasn’t difficult. It was sheer agony. Each movement was a monumental effort; each forward thrust of the blade a marathon.
To dig was a Herculean task, but not to dig … to not dig meant certain death, death from the raging winds and bitter cold, death from the freezing rain which would turn the now rocky surface into a quagmire of sucking mud, death from the biting sand carried by the hurricane force winds, death even from the snow which in other places and other times would have been welcomed as a soft, beautiful blanket over the hostile landscape. Now, even the snow was just another way to die. And he would have, he would have died. He would have lied upon the rocks and welcomed death as an end to the suffering, except for them.
Instead, he once again plunged the metal blade downward, hoping the hole would be enough to protect them. Nine feet by five feet and few feet deep. Nine feet by five feet of space in which he, his wife, and his five children would live through the winter, if one could really call this existence living. Nine feet by five feet in which to suffer, huddled against one another, embracing one another to make the most of the other’s body heat. Nine feet by five feet of hope, hope for tomorrow, hope that other holes would not be dug.
The recent past of those in this place was filled with the digging of other holes. Thousands of jumbled mounds dotted the hillside stretching above them, punctuating the existence of those holes that were now filled with the bodies of those who had not survived the past winter. Each time he looked up from the digging, he was reminded of the small bodies of other men’s children who had been carried to that hillside. Each time he raised his eyes he caught another glimpse of a possibility too horrible to contemplate, a future where he too might make the journey to the hillside. With bleeding hands and labored breath, he continued to dig, to dig for life, life for himself and life for his children.
A world away another man struggles. His hands do not bleed. His children do not suffer. His, by any measurement, is a most secure life. He contemplates that which happens far from his home, the bombs which fall from his nation’s aircraft, the voices from his nation’s leaders which call the people to arms in order that they might stamp out hatred from the world, the proclamation from his nation’s churches which seem to say that there is no other way, no other way to secure life other than by the bombs and the blood and the death. He ponders these things and he wonders why he is not being persecuted. But he doesn’t wonder for long, the truth is too painful.
Every now and then, the man who digs stops to catch his breath when he is forced to seek a momentary respite from the sheer physicalness of the agony. And in those moments he too wonders, he wonders if anyone really cares. Here in the midst of falling bombs and warring armies, here in this place where Jesus says he might be found, here among “the least of these,” he wonders if anyone cares at all … anyone? And then, he wipes his brow and once again plunges the spade downward. Jesus wipes his brow and plunges his spade downward.
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
The founder of YWAM (Youth With a Mission) tells of how they started with a vision to build a ship. God blessed their vision and they got it. But eventually, they realized that they started worshipping the ship (temple) rather than God. Images of the crators where the World Trade Centers stood still flash across the screen and our minds. It's easy to focus on the acheivements of the Temple, or it's easy to focus on the fear that comes from seeing the "holes." The point seems to be, no matter what, come what may, wealth or poverty, joy or tragedy, we need to keep our eyes on Jesus. Dan
My dear fellow sojourners,
In the midst of violence, I wonder why it is that we are not handed over and persecuted. Could it be that we are not handed over because our voice is no longer the voice which points to truth? Could it be that we have made Jesus into our image, an image which sees no difference from obedience to Christ and obedience to Caesar? Could it be that we are not dragged before our religious leaders and our national leaders because we have in fact, become Caesar? Is the seduction this complete?
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Thank you for trying to relate this passage to Thanksgiving. I love it when the text rubs the wrong way for a season. I also love how all of the thoughts here develope together. Maybe we can learn to be thankful for those things which cannot be destroyed, as someone else mentioned, rather than material blessings and buildings. DGinNYC
I'll also repeat the question I posted under Isaiah. Is destruction necessary to new life, to a new creation? (I wish and hope not, but it certainly seems Biblical...) DGinNYC
DGinNYC: "Thank you for trying to relate this passage to Thanksgiving. I love it when the text rubs the wrong way for a season."
Well, it really doesn't rub the wrong way for "the season", does it? The season is the end of "ordinary time" and the beginning of a transition into Advent and, thus, we have a shift of perspective toward the eschaton. Thanksgiving Day isn't a "season" of the church; it's a secular holiday which the American congress chose to place in late November (the Canadian version is 5-6 weeks earlier). So the contrast here is not between the lessons and the season, but between the church's season and the country's holiday.
Blessings, Eric in KS
For a Jewish person, the beautiful temple of Jerusalem stood as a constant reminder of the presence of God among His people. Its grandeur and magnitude were a symbol of the righteousness of the Jewish people. And it stood for far more than just the religious focus. It was also the political and moral decision centre of Judaism. It contained the Sanhedrin and the Jewish courts. It was designed to be a powerful symbol of the earthly presence of God, and had the authority to make judgements about what was righteousness or sin.
For this to no longer exist, meant that the Jewish people would be placed in a position of political and moral turmoil. It is important to note that to many Jews, it's destruction literally meant that God was no longer in control, or that the God of Israel, was not as powerful as other gods. And yet, this is exactly what Jesus is suggesting is necessary for the very people it was meant to offer security to. Jesus is suggesting that the people will gain their souls from the turmoil which results, rather than the comfortable security that they currently enjoyed by its presence.
People often associate pain and trouble as the absence of God, or that God is punishing them. Jesus, is making the observation, that it is often only in the face of adversity and pain, that we most often are willing to allow God to speak to us. It is most often when we do not have cliched answers, or glib replies to issues, or dependancy upon crutches, that we are most open to learning more about the will and desire of God for us.
Yes, it hurts to be placed in this position of vulnerability, and yet it is necessary for our soul. This is what this passage addresses. Jesus is preparing the disciples for the way of the cross, not only in his life, but in the life of every disciple who claims to follow Him in the future. In the Christian life, there is no where to lay our head, no place that we can rest from our labours, other than in our faith in Christ. It is a life of constant pursuit for the truth of the Spirit. It is a life of daily endurance, to live out our life as God requires.
How different this is, to those who join Christianity, to find easy answers and quick solutions to their struggles. Jesus in this passage puts paid to any who would build Christianity into a temple of absolute doctrine and dogma. This is not a church, the world desires, because it cannot be controlled or contained. It is therefore not a popular picture of the church, that many in the western world appreciate. It is a church that always lives in uncertainty and openness to movement of the Spirit of God. This is not a comfortable passage for any of us who have dared to suggest that we now have the divine way summed up.
By your endurance you will gain your souls. That's what we do day by day, year by year, as we continue our journey of understanding. Jesus in his prophetic role, does not come to bring peace but a fire.
I do not believe this means we have to get rid of our buildings, but it does suggest we have to be very careful about what we place our faith in.
Sorry, I've gone on a bit.
Regards to all for a productive week.
KGB in Aussie.
"By your endurance you will gain your souls." This verse has caught my attention. Is this not the utimate blessing? gaining our souls? Our love of God and our mission on earth is maintained in the face of adversity. Still musing but the Title is " the Ultimate Blessing" . Nancy-Wi
I'll bite! Is destruction necessary to new life, to a new creation? It is an intriguing question. If Christ transforms us then we must consider the possibility of some type of destruction. Perhaps it could be the destruction of false idols, false Gods. Perhaps it is the False idols could be materialistic "got to haves or I'll die", loyality to a football team that usurps God time on Sunday's (I hate really early Packer game!
I find it so fascinating in the midst of destruction we drop food for life. Through the feeding we are saving lives that could still persecute us. In refugee camps we provide what we can so that a nation can rebuild. Given the history of the region there is no guarantee that in the future our works of mercy may not return to us as perscutions or destruction. We still use our hands as Jesus taught in those places.
Some mutterings, Nancy-Wi
DG asked "Is destruction necessary to new life?"
Paul certainly seemed to think so. Over and over again he speaks of "dying" to his old life in order to be born again in Christ. This is perhaps most clear in the Epistle for the Easter Vigil (from Romans 3):
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
I don't know if we want to equate "death" with "destruction" -- but Paul seems to in v. 6 above. (He seems to make the same equation in 2 Corinthians 5:1 -- "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.") I would argue that we are talking only about "material" or "apparent" destruction. To me, "destruction" implies cessation of existence, while "death" is merely a change of condition ("life is changed, not ended" as reads the Proper Preface for a Requiem Eucharist in Episcopal Book of Common Prayer). So I would qualify an answer to DG's question as "Yes, material or earthly or "spiritual" destruction, e.g., death or "death to sin", is required for rebirth and new life.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I agree with the contributor who talked about the material stuff. We certainly do love all the material things of this world, the beauty and adornment. But when the times really get tough, to whom or to what do we turn. Some turn to the lottery, gambling, the bottle, drugs, some even try to trust all the beautiful stuff that is their possessions, when during the tough times the one possession that really matters is Jesus Christ who keeps his promises and will always be with us. We need to place our faith, trust, belief, and hope in Him during our times of distress and grief. Our endurance during hard times comes from Christ. I received an e-mail from one of my parishioners concerning Max Lucado's impression of President Bush. Lucado recently attended a prayer breakfast along with several other well known pastors. Thinking that President Bush would look tired out in the midst of all the tragedy, he asked the President how he could look so calm and peaceful. Bush's answer to Lucado was, "I feel stronger now than I've every been in my life, and the reason is because every person in America is praying for me. When I stay on my knees, that's when I have power." All of us, pastors and laity need to take a lesson and spend more time on our knees not only during the tragic times but also during the good times. Jesus Christ will never forsake us. Rick in ND
How easy it is for us to see what is not important and miss what is truly important. We miss the point of this text if we get caught up in any of the things mentioned--buildings, false teachers, end times, natural disasters, persecutions, betrayals and defense of the faith.The point rests in verses 18 and 19, we belong to God regardless of what happens to our cities, our reputation, our homes or our familes. The old Gospel hymn sums it up, "You have all the rest, just give me Jesus." GE in IL
The people in this scripture were caught up in the beauty of the building. I remember one Sunday in my second parish. On the ends of the pews were memorial placques. Given by, etc. So, I was greeting people and welcomed some I had not seen before. They introduced themselves. "I suppose you have heard of the famous Kratz family?" "No," I replied. "Well this is a pew we donated to the church." This same church had almost a split over buying new pews and refinishing the old dark oak in the building. People worship buildings more than they do God. The church I grew up in as a child needs to move. The old sanctuary was replaced by a new one in the late 50's. I grew up in it, was baptized (by immersion) there and it means a lot to me. But I know they need to move. The oldest members are having a cow, even though they no longer minister to the people in the neighborhood (as if they ever did) and they have to have a security guard to make them feel safe. And what of new contemporary worship? Don't the old stones need to be open to new styles of worship otherwise, no stone will be left upon another? We are worshipping our habits. We have forgotten our Good Commission to go out and minister, baptize, teach and make disciples! PH in OH
A thanksgiving story... maybe I told you all this story already... if so, sorry for the repeat...
Thanksgiving is coming? what are you thankful for? With the recent additional American Airlines tragedy in the Queens Neighborhood in the Bronx of New York, I?m thankful for the little things in my life. As I write this note, I look out my office window to the heavens from whence my help comes and I see a blue surreal sky filled with hope and the possibility of yet another wonderful Mid-November sunset that feels more like one in late September. It is gorgeous! The other day, I overheard a proud grandmother recounting a story to Sharon (our secretary)in the other office. I only heard bits and pieces of the story, so when ?Grandma? left? I asked Sharon, ?What was all that laughter about?? It seems that the Grandmother?s Grandson turned 4 this past May? and he?s a very sensitive young man with a very deep faith for his age. He and his mother were having a ?discussion? as mothers and sons are known to have from time to time. (Especially if you?re 4 years old!) The conversation went something like this? ?Yes, you do!? ?No, I don?t? ?Yes, you do!? ?No, I don?t? ?Yes, you do!? ?No, I don?t? or words to that affect. With that, the 4-year-old son?turned, and walked away from his mother, down the hallway? to his bedroom? and shut the door. The mother went about her daily chores and thought little of her son?s escape? ?Boys will be boys?? she mused. About 5 minutes later, her 4-year-old son returned from his bedroom. ?Mom, I just prayed for some patience? and I think maybe you?d better too!? Ouch? kind of puts the problems of that ?house? in perspective. It especially puts the problems of the world in a universal language. For, it is the little things in life that make the greatest impact on our lives.
pulpitt in ND
"I will lift my eyes to the hills from where will my help come? My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth." (NRSV) Psalm 121:1-2 "A little more thankful!"
Thanksgiving is coming? what are you thankful for? With the recent additional American Airlines tragedy in the Queens Neighborhood in the Bronx of New York, I'm thankful for the little things in my life. As I write this note, I look out my office window to the heavens from whence my help comes and I see a blue surreal sky filled with hope and the possibility of yet another wonderful Mid-November sunset that feels more like one in late September. It is gorgeous! The other day, I overheard a proud grandmother recounting a story to Sharon in the other office. I only heard bits and pieces of the story, so when "Grandma" left? I asked Sharon, "What was all that laughter about?" It seems that the Grandmother?s Grandson turned 4 this past May? and he?s a very sensitive young man with a very deep faith for his age. He and his mother were having a ?discussion? as mothers and sons are known to have from time to time. (Especially if you?re 4 years old!) The conversation went something like this? "Yes, you do!" "No, I don't" "Yes, you do!" "No, I don't" "Yes, you do!" "No, I don't? or words to that affect. With that, the 4-year-old son?turned, and walked away from his mother, down the hallway? to his bedroom? and shut the door. The mother went about her daily chores and thought little of her son?s escape? "Boys will be boys"? she mused. About 5 minutes later, her 4-year-old son returned from his bedroom. "Mom, I just prayed for some patience? and I think maybe you'd better too!" Ouch? kind of puts the problems of that "house" in perspective. It especially puts the problems of the world in a universal language. For, it is the little things in life that make the greatest impact on our lives.
Tried to take the "?" out... sorry about that...
pulpitt in ND
well you get the idea...
:?( pulpitt in ND
Is anyone else bothered by our being the terrorists?...
I watch the news and see the Taliban retreating... having walked away...
not fighting back...
not surrendering...
but not ATTACKING...
Releasing the girls who were jailed for three months by the Taliban for their Christian witness and beliefs. Why didn't they kill them? It looks to me, like WE WOULD HAVE!...
I'm having a hard time understanding our witness of peace...
What must it be like to walk away from a stronghold - the capital of Afghanistan only to be ZAPPED off the road by one of our "smart" bombs... (I don't get that expression... I thin ALL BOMBS are dumb...)
I cannot see Jesus saying... "You've heard that it was said... an eye for an eye, a life for a life... but I SAY... LOVE YOUR ENEMIES... pray for those who piss you off...but don't kill them... what would Jesus do?
Why don't WE DO WHAT JESUS DID!
I don't know, I hurt...
I'm sure I'll be in trouble again this Sunday with the HAWKS in my church... wrapped in the flag of peace... doesn't bring much comfort to me.
I like what Tex Sample said... at Iliff Week of Lectures in Denver a couple of years ago... so many people seem to be of the opinion that when we die, the great bald eagle will come down and pick us up by the butt and take us into heaven...
pulpitt in ND
Thank you for pondering my question about destruction and new life. I don't like the idea that death or destruction are necessary. But I can't avoid it. We are doing two adult baptisms on Sunday, and I always teach the Romans 3 passage for baptism preparation. It's just that it all seems so violent.
I've been thinking further. One of the Gods Hindus worship is Shiva, the God of Destruction. Destruction is really part of life, part of nature, part of the way God made the earth. (Thanks for the John 12 reminder). But while some kind of destruction may be necessary to new life, destruction does not necessarily lead to life. It can lead to retaliation, or depression, or just plain waste. It's God's activity (as in the Isaiah passage: Behold, I make all things new) that brings the new life, and our cooperation or participation in God's activity.
Still working on this.
I have another question. Does anyone know why the temple in Jerusalem has not been rebuilt since its destruction in 70 AD?
Thank you all for being out there. DGinNYC
DGinNYC --
Something about your last posting reminded me that Robert Oppenheimer quoted from the Indian Bhagavad-Gita on the occasion of the first nuclear explosion: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I don't know why... it just came to me.
Why hasn't the Temple been rebuilt? Because there hasn't been a Jewish nation (until the last half of the last Century) to do so. And in modern times, there has been a mosque on the site (well, actually a shrine -- the Dome of the Rock) and there would be hell to pay if that were destroyed to allow rebuilding of the Temple.
Blessings, Eric in KS
How about combining Thanksgiving with the lessons for this Sunday with this theme: Thanks for the Future. I will lift up the hope that God gives ALL of us--even if our families will not be around our table on T-day, even if there isn't much food to put on table. And what we can do with that hope--in sharing it with others. Sharon in Bethlehem
Amidst the cracking of the walls, the nations do rise against one another. Yet, the voices, for the most part, remain silent. Few, if any, are brought before the Powers. The Powers have no reason, for the cry that carries one to the cross is little more than a whisper. Why crucify one who can more readily be seduced? The famines come and the famines go. Countless suffer, wither and die. The earthquakes of injustice rumble across the lands. Rocks are tossed out against tanks.
Homes. The “other” are pulled from their homes. Many loose their homes to corporate wealth. Some never know what it is to be in a real home. The ones who are “they” make their homes in a muddy pit, far away in a place where dying is a release. A tent. A hole. A piece of plastic. Homes.
Opportunities to testify flash from a reality that is never noted. No one is hated. No one betrayed. There is no need. And once again, as if ordained by God, death claims the victory. The lie wins.
And the Voice that says “by your endurance …” dies on the sounds of the bugles, as if it never existed at all.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Thank you for your words Rev. E. I think you are wrestling with the heart of this Apocalyptic text. This passage was written just before Jesus was arrested. It was written in the context of immanent destruction and persecution. It speaks a word to people whose lives have been (or are about to be) flattened.
In this sense, our Afghani brothers and sisters probably have a better chance of hearing the truth of this passage than we satisfied Americans.
I'm from the SouthWest so we feel some what distanced from the fear and anxiety that must be present in NY and DC. But I think a passage like this begs to be read at the edge of Ground Zero. It is a word for people who are dangling on the edge of disaster and need HOPE. Yes you will be hated, Yes you will be murdered. Every stone will be thrown down, BUT I will hold your life in my hands. These words spoken by a God who is fully congnizant of the suffering and death his disciples are about to undergo. Therefore these words can only mean that God is fully confident that even in death God will prevail and lift us up to God's self.
This is not a passage for flimsy words about being happy and counting your blessings. It is a word to people in the midst of death, that our God is a mighty God.
I am thinking along the same line as Sharon in Bethlehem. My printed topic is "Thanksgiving in the Future Tense." Many people think of giving thanks only for what has happened in the past. For other people the past has not been all that great. Some people think of thanksgiving only in the present tense as they reflect on what they like about the here and now. Unfortunately, the present is not that great for some people either (e.g. the survivor of the World Trade Center killed in the American Airline flight 587 Crash, Afgan civilians, laid off factory workers, etc.). Yet regardless of how bad the past or the present, Christians can look to the future with hope. We have a godly vision that both saves us from despair and gives us good reason to be thankful. -- Fred in NC
Dear Fred in NC:
Thank you for helping me find the link to Thanksgiving that works for me. "Thanksgiving in the Future Tense." I've spent time working with the various understandings of the end times that are found in this text. I'm surprised that none of you have mentioned the news segment earlier this week about Revelation and the possiblity (as they put it) that "The Bible might be true!"
As usual, when we get to read about our future, I tend to deemphasize reading the signs and worrying about that. I attempt to bring our focus on living "in the meantime."
But it is the promise that God is in control of our future, no matter how frightening the imagery might be, that provides our hope. And we can surely give thanks for that.
Blessings
Pam in San Bernardino
Here's the phrase that caught me: "So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance" ... thinking how much we want to be prepared ... in control. Thinking of all the energy that went into preparing the Y2K ... the disaster that never happened. Thinking of what it is to live in the shadow of Sept 11th ... the disaster we never could have imagined. Can we live in the tension of faith in the one who calls us beyond the fear? That, I think, is the call of the gospel in this text. Blessings, susan in sanpedro
I was out today spreading Winterizer weed-&-feed on my lawn (seems an odd thing to be doing in mid-November but it is 70 deg!) and mulling over this lesson when it hit me how odd this text is coming just before Advent!
We are about to have prophets and Gospel texts tell us to prepare, keep awake, be ready, and so forth ... and here is Jesus saying, "Don't bother to prepare."
It seems to me that the contrast is between getting ready for eternity vs. getting ready for things that happen in this world. Jesus seems to be saying, "Don't sweat the small stuff."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Friend Susan,
It is the faith that brings us in contact with the fear. It is not mere happenstance, as you know more than most. It is living from that point of Christ into the world that brings and bears the conflict. And it is only then, that the conflict begins. I really appreciate your continued voice my sister.
Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC
Erik in KS - This may be a little late, but I'm using Isaiah 12 also - the wells of salvation tie in nicely with the baptism we will have Sunday. Any ideas? kculp@awod.com
Oh, sorry, it should be Eric.
K.
pulpitt in ND-
I'm with you. As one of my parishioners asked (God bless her!), "Should we now be wearing sackcloth and ashes?" "YES!"
I've written a piece about how we who WERE the victims and had the sympathy and goodwill of our neighbors around the world have turned it all around, blown our opportunity to develop respectful and colleagial, cooperative and empathetic relationships and have become, as you put it, "the terrorists."
So sad, so sad. And all about pride, and "hitting (back, but who?)," which even my 6 year-old son realizes leads to a cycle of violence!
And now "defending our freedom" becomes a ludicrous proposition, as our freedoms are being taken away!
I am sorry that it is painful, and probably has bad consequences, to lift up the Truth in your congregation. I pray that God will give you the courage to continue to do so, and the wisdom to see how to do it... given your situation, with integrity.
Sackcloth and ashes... I think she had a point... God hold you in His arms and give you Hope, in Him.
Deb in the 'burgh
Just a few thoughts to add to the melting pot
I am especially interested in the first few verses ... which speak about the temporary nature of much that we hold dear . like the memorials in church to long gone parishioners that someone else referred to.
In the passage; what does the temple stand for and why will it be destroyed ?
Jesus worked outside the temple system ... this was one of the major reasons for his death. He criticised it ... for Jesus the temple stood for rebellion against God’s rule. (Or at the very least, it showed that Israel had failed to grasp what was essential in their relationship with God).
The temple was centre of religious, moral and political life as such it was a powerful symbol of security.
Not one stone will stand on another ... it brings to mind (as so much does) Sept 11th.
Where is our security ? In the UK, in a fairly quiet market town, and in spite of what has happened, I guess most people feel relatively secure.
With regard to the destruction of the temple ... we are having to live with the gradual 'destruction' of the established church in the UK. (Or at least much of the traditions that go with it). I heard today for the first time, the phrase 'liquid church' a church that can adapt to its surroundings and not be stuck in a time warp. By contrast to liquid church, we are often frozen church, in need of thawing out.
On the persecution alluded to by Jesus. I had an e-mail from a friend in Pakistan after the killing of 16 Christians in a church. In fact, the Christians who were killed were protestants meeting in a Catholic Church. What a witness that is. At the funeral service it was said 'let us never forget that the central message of Christianity is turning the other cheek' An example of God giving the right words at the right time.
Rev EV in UK
Lest we forget: The Holecaust, the killing fields of Cambodia; and other such evil acts... These to me are things that we as Christian's let continue. I hate the violence but the violence done to the citzens of that nation needs to be thought of too. What is a just war? When is evil too evil? How many must suffer before they can to live untortured? I don't know the answer, The Taliban releasing the hostages was a surprise, but it had been what we were praying for. I hope we bert /wts
Lest we forget: The Holecaust, the killing fields of Cambodia; and other such evil acts... These to me are things that we as Christian's let continue. I hate the violence but the violence done to the citzens of that nation needs to be thought of too. What is a just war? When is evil too evil? How many must suffer before they can to live untortured? I don't know the answer, The Taliban releasing the hostages was a surprise, but it had been what we were praying for. I hope we are really not fighting for revenge. I hope we are truely fighting so that we embrace the diversity of the world so that evil is contained... In my eyes it is not a religious war but a war against evil. We as Christians see it through our faith. If the Taliban has not sheltered the terrorists then the consquences would have been different. If the Taliban surrendered then we would not be persusing. When I read this over I am hesitant to post because I hate killing so much. Nancy-WI
Great Thanksgiving is a communion prayer at the foot of the Cross...a Cross that leads to hope and resurrection even beyond and/or transcending religion's limitations! From the perspective gained only by hanging from the Cross what do you/I see? Through the eyes of Jesus what do we see? What lies beyond religiousity's self-absorbed concern for security? What lies beyond the temple's dryrot and disintergration? Do we see the one digging the grave necessary for birth/resurrection? Do the disciples in the "gathered" Church see the opportunity of mission and for mission in the apostolic "scattering" to the ends of the earth? Does the perception from the "Cross hanging" look beyond the vision of God in the Temple's security of religiousity to the "God Above God" who appears (makes advent) out of God's disapperance? What does it mean to worship in a mode of Great Thanksgiving at the foot of the Cross? I believe it means to look with the eyes of Jesus at the world in all of its suffering for which he died! And to go and give to that world out of Christ-ian love, taking the woundedness of that world on one's self as if it were one's own, to go and meet Jesus there where he still is at work as the Wounded Healer! This scripture is like the word "crisis" because it involves both "danger" and "opportunity/risk" (Chinese meaning of crisis). This scripture bridges the crossover from beautiful sanctuaries centering on the Cross and the actual work of Jesus now going on in a wounded, hurting, world,...a world he sees from the Cross on which he hangs. The crisis of woundedness breeds opportunity of ministry...filled with danger and hope/risk/possibility. It would be a shame if we stayed in the security of our Temple's santuary beneath a Cross lifting empty/hollow prayers of Great Thanksgiving and do not see the Wounded working Jesus in the midst of the crisis of a hurting, broken, bleeding world. This world does not need Holy War. It needs Shalom and Holy Peace...even at the costly price of disciples who still "gather" around a Cross so that they may "scatter" to the ends of the earth because of the vision of what they see through the eyes of Jesus hanging from the Cross. PaideiaSCO in north ga mts.
There is an old comedy bit, which I think I first heard on the old country comedy program, "Hee-Haw". I think Grandpa Jones was surrounded by the cast telling a story and they were responding-
GP; Old Jed fell out of an airplane.
Crowd; That's bad!
GP; But he had a parachute.
C; That's good.
GP; But it didn't open.
C- That's bad!
GP- But he was falling toward a haystack.
C- That's good.
GP- But there was a pitchfork in the haystack.
C- Oh, that's bad!
GP- But he missed the pitchfork.
C- Well, that's good.
GP- But he missed the haystack too.
And it goes on something like that. I thought of that reading this conversation between Jesus and the disciples- The temple is good! / It will all fall down. / Oh, that's bad. When? We need to prepare. / Don't worry, it's a long time off. / Oh, that's good. / Yeah, long before that happens, you'll be arrested. / Oh, that's bad. / No, that's good. You'll be able to speak the gospel to kings, governors. / Oh, we better prepare. / No, the Holy Spirit will give you words. / Oh, that's good!
I think I might use this as a sermon opener, to loosen up the folks and point out that what we see as bad can sometimes bring forth good, and what we put our trust in sometimes falls to pieces. tom in TN(USA)
I appreciate your posts Nailbender. As I think about the hard contrasts between us (getting ready to feast at Thanksgiving) and the victims of war, I think that even the terrible tragedy in D.C. and N.Y. does not compare to the horror in Afghanastan. We still have the luxury of "getting back to normal" while they.... What does the "Peaceable Kingdom" mean to us and what could it mean to those who have suffered for so long, suffered under the Talaban and then under our bombs. To us, where does Christ point? and to them, what is the message of hope? This will be a difficult sermon for tomorrow...for those in our pews who seek reasurrance in a world of uncertainty. What does this gospel lesson say to us in this place on earth? Peace and Joy, Francis
Francis,
Thank you my friend. Over the last week I have felt an immense sadness. I don’t know if it is those feelings elicited by this scripture, if it is the fact that our embrace of violence once again appears to have been victorious on the field of war and in the hearts of our brothers and sisters, or if this scripture so utterly demonstrates how far the “corporate we” are from the Kingdom. Over the past several weeks, I have found almost a giddy delight in our churches at each military strike and at each defeat of “the other.” I say this with no naïve thoughts that “the other” might somehow be redeemed by our kindness and gentleness. I say this with sadness because it seems to me to be so contrary from the “Peaceable Kingdom” which flows out of our living into the love of Christ which promises that we might even love our enemy.
As you could see, I kept alluding to the fact that we American Christians are not being brought before governors and kings, are not being persecuted and hated. I am a good United Methodist, and we certainly don’t want to be hated. We want to be loved and well respected. I want to be loved and well respected. And yet, nation does rise against nation, and earthquakes of injustice do roar across the earth. Famines come and people die.
Those who struggle in the end, do not get drug before the powers simply because they say the words, “I believe in Jesus.” They are drug before the powers because they stand connected with the Christ of love and the Christ of justice who says, “Love your enemy.” They are drug before the powers because their very obedience and their very presence shows the actions of the powers to be the antithesis of the will of God. They are drug before the powers, they are hated by their family, they are betrayed by their friends because they claim the Christ who so disrupts the bias from the top that he his taken to a torture device and executed. They are drug before the powers because they refuse to hate, refuse to kill, refuse to be part of the nation against nation.
And so I grieve. I grieve for my lack of courage. I grieve for our voice that is not raised. I grieve because so many look at those willing to raise their voice and call them “fools.”
In his suffering, Jesus redeems the world. May it be so for his church.
Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC
Thank you for the nice caring words "Deb in the 'burgh"
I remember the time I was at a workshop led by a pretty good friend... we were talking about tolerance... living in a multicultural world... all week we talked about discrimination... be it ... age, sex, religion, nationality, ethnic heritage... etc. etc...
finally, on the last day... I got to thinking about those that have asked me about our churches stance or my stance on "homosexuality" and so I asked... "In my then 13 years of ministry... I've probably had a handful of folks with enough courage to ask me what our stance is on the topic of "homosexuality"... I've in turned asked them, "Do you want MY stance, or the churches stance?" "Well... um, both?" I tell them that homosexual persons, no less than heterosexual are persons of sacred worth and should be treated with love and respect..." that's basically my stance... I then say, "Our church Disicpline goes on to say things that I don't think are helpful..."
"Now," (I continued) "I can ask that question here... no parishoners, no one confronting me from my church, not even many from the state in which I serve... but I doubt I'd be brave enough to say those things from my pulpit!" To which my friend and the leader of the workshop said...
"Rick, if you don't say something as a witness to Christ, Who will?"
Thanks again for the encouragement, Deb, blessings returned to you,
pulpitt in ND
I know, I know, I'm late "AGAIN"... but here is some of a recent conversation with a friend of mine, and a colleague in ministry in the Dakotas...
We talked about the possibility of a cease fire... during Ramadan... not going to happen... we continue to bomb... granted... if we let up now... Ben Ladin would get away for sure...
Their troops are maybe not surrendering "officially" but unofficially... they have "walked away" from the fighting... heads down, guns lowered... just defeated in mind and spirit...
Most times in life... we're given second, third and fourth chances... we give our president chance after chance... we give our spouses... our children, our co-workers... a chance to make it right...
OK, the Taliban are abusive, seemingly heartless folks... but folks they are! People, flesh and blodd people like you and me... trained to hate us... you and me... and what did Jesus say about hating others... I know, it sounds hokey!... but he said to love "EVEN THEM"...
I can't... love them, I mean... I look at the widows, the children, the husbands... the grandparents... eyes hollow of feeling... defeated... so "blow 'em up while they're down"... the good ole' American way... Christian way... I wonder...
Thanks for listening late on a Saturday night... with a sermon "in progress"... thanks to all of you...
pulpitt in ND
Hey, Y'all!
Thanks for your input this week ... it helped me get back into the groove (that month off from preaching didn't really help -- I got rusty!)
Anyway, special thanks to Tom from TN -- I used your Hee Haw dialog.
My sermon for Proper 28C can be found at
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/csermons/ordtime-pr28c-y2k+1.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
I know this is late, and odds are that it will be too late for anyone to read, but I find it somewhat amusing each time someone brings up the fact that Thanksgiving (or 4th of July, Memorial Day etc) is not part of the "church" season, but a secular holiday. In this discussion the argument stated that Thanksgiving was decided by Congress, which I relate to be a bunch of old white men, to be placed in the latter part of November. Well the lectionary texts for this Sunday were also chosen by a whole bunch of old white men. I can tell you truthfully that 99 percent of my congregation can care less that tomorrow is the 24th Sunday after Pentecost. Maybe they should, maybe I should. But they do know that Thursday is Thanksgiving. And even tomorrow there minds will be on Thanksgiving. How sad it would be if they went away thinking that Thanksgiving is "secular." People are hungry for connecting their worship experiences with the rest of their lives. To me this means allowing Thanksgiving to be part of our worship tomorrow. To me this means challenging people with the ways of Christ versus the ways of the United States. To me this means that the old men in the room many years ago who came up with the lectionary could not even imagine the world today. While I respect the lectionary. I use the lectionary. I also recognize its limitations.
Someone said, in a larger note, "How sad it would be if they went away thinking that Thanksgiving is 'secular.' People are hungry for connecting their worship experiences with the rest of their lives. To me this means allowing Thanksgiving to be part of our worship tomorrow."
As the person who pointed out that "Thanksgiving (or 4th of July, Memorial Day etc) is not part of the 'church' season, but a secular holiday," let me reply that I agree wholeheartedly. I was not suggesting that a sense of thanksgiving should not permeate our worship, nor that there should be no reference to the holiday in today's worship. Rather, that there is a contrast between the focus of the holiday and the focus of our readings here at the end of Ordinary Time, between the secular (in this case, American -- recall that other nations have harvest thanksgiving holidays at another time) notion of time and the church's notion of time. We face the same sort of contrast at this time of year when the secular commercial world is already celebrating Christmas and the church hasn't even begun Advent, or on January 1 when the secular "new year" comes two months or so after the church's "new year". It's not a matter of ignoring what the world is doing, but of acknowledging the contrast and using it in our exegetical, kerygmatic and didactic ministry.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Previous:
Any ideas as to how to approach this Gospel text without teaching a literal day of judgment? Bill in TN
Bill; Should we, or perhaps shouldn't we preach a literal day of judgment. That's what is says. All we can say is that it will be, not when, and we better be ready for it. Unfortunately, in reading my brief comments, one might think I am very works righteous, which is not the case.
Sorry, I didn't sign the above ... Bruce in KY
Bill in TN
Not to preach a literal judgment day!!!? How heretical can you be. Isn't everyday kairos, a time of decision, crisis (judgment and promise - chinese). Also, the Nicene Creed speaks of us "looking forward" to the second comming. The judgment is to be expected, anticipated. For me the judgment comes as a radical grace, for God is the only one who really knows me. All the other judgments fade, even my own, into the sunset, as God comforts me with his knowing and love.
Tom in GA
Bill in TN
Not to preach a literal judgment day!!!? How heretical can you be. Isn't everyday kairos, a time of decision, crisis (judgment and promise - chinese). Also, the Nicene Creed speaks of us "looking forward" to the second comming. The judgment is to be expected, anticipated. For me the judgment comes as a radical grace, for God is the only one who really knows me. All the other judgments fade, even my own, into the sunset, as God comforts me with his knowing and love.
Tom in GA
Gee, Bill!
I am guessing you meant "without parading about in sack cloth and ashes and holding up a sign claiming' The End Is Near'". Because it is hard to get people to listen to that sort of thing. I was taught to preach the good news of Christ Jesus. It will take awhile for me to decide how to lift up this scripture....
HW in HI
HW in HI,
This is in response to your query last week and also, to address Pw's response to you. I posted it on last week's lectionary discussion but expect you probably won't see it there.
I don't know exactly where you are located in HI, but if you are on Oahu, there is a United Methodist Church in Wahiawa.(sp?) I'm sure there must also be some in Honolulu, but I am unsure of the locations. Also, I recall there was a UMC on the north shore near BYU. Anyway, hope that might help for future reference.
Sister, one more thing. In response to Pw in PA -- Reproduction of materials in the Book of Worship is permitted for one-time use, "as in a bulletin, special program, or lesson resource, provided that the copyright notice and acknowledgement line are included on the reproduction." Now, the paragraph addressing this also specifically states that "United Methodist congregations may reproduce for worship and education..." Thus, if one looked no further, one might assume this is limited to United Methodists. However, being that United Methodists are a very ecumenical bunch and being that our goal in empowering, enhancing, and promoting life and connectivity to God stated in our Book of Discipline reads "United Methodists respond to the theological, biblical, and practical mandates for Christian unity by firmly committing ourselves to the cause of Christian unity at local, national, and world levels. We invest ourselves to the cause in many ways by which mutual recognition of churches, of members, and of ministries may lead us to sharing in Holy Communion with all of God's peoples...," I believe we can probably extend a prayer resource to you, copied no less, without you having to risk your eternal soul -- at least for a one-time event (chuckle).
Further, perhaps this clarification might assuage Pw's concern about the importance of guarding our ethical and moral lives -- at least in regards to copyright violations. Wish it were that this level of concern extends to all areas of social justice, particularly in reference to the poor and powerless. Perhaps so, perhaps so, I pray so.
Shalom sister, I really appreciate you.
Nail-Bender in NC
You will be hated by all...
What is this. To be a Christian is such a cultural thing. The word can be substituted with 'gentlemen.' There is nothing threatening about being a disciple - it is so easy its not worth the worlds attention. People may hate me for other reasons, but not for bearing the name of Christ! If anything there apathy within and without. Would I desire to live where this statement was true - such as in Africa. Could I stand up for my faith, would I be live in real eschatological times knowing that I may die one day simply because of Christ's name? I don't know. I would like to think so, but the only way I would know is if I packed my bags, said good bye to my family, and boarded a plane for Africa. I think I am too afraid to hear these readings. I don't want an opportunity to testify, to be a martyr. I guess I will take apathy any day.
Tom in GA
Jesus prophecy of first the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and then the coming judgement demands to be preached.
I've written here in the past about preaching the full gospel. How, it seems, that passages like this one are glossed over or worse yet, ignored in the main line church.
Judgment is no longer preached. We might hurt someone's feelings. Upset the apple cart. Lose our pensions.
Why can't we preach a literal judgment day? Doesn't that make better the Good News? I honestly don't get it.
I have been touched here by so many of you. I've learned a lot in the last few months. But I'm frustrated when some decide that preaching the Word is going to step on some toes, that it might hurt some feelings, tick some people off enough that they might leave.
Where's the faith? Is God sovereign? Can we trust His Word? Is it not timeless and time tested? Can't we combine judgment with grace? Can't we preach Hell but remind people of Heaven?
I understand I've got a lot to learn. I'm not in the pulpit yet and boy does that make it easy for me to write these words. But here's what I'm thinking. If going off to seminary means learning "all that facinating stuff...no one in the parish seems much to care about" maybe I don't want to go. I'll stay un-educated (self-educated) with a desire to preach the Word as read.
We don't need wet-blanket preachers. Throw them off, preach the Word, and trust Him. For Christ's sake!
Rick in Va
Tom and others... I disagree that as Christians we are not hated. Where I minister, in a small prairie town, I am becoming more aware of the hatred people have towards the church, and myself as a representative. IT manifests itself in subtle ways, we are teased because we go to church. We are called "those church types". I have 13 committed Christians in my confirmation class and I cannot wait to see what the church of the future will be like with their leadership. But they talk to me about the misconceptions and attitudes at school because they go to church. Anyway, I think we all need to pay attention to this. What does it mean for us to be disliked, if not hated, or misunderstood if not persecuted, because we are Christians in this time. I honestly think we need to shift our thinking here folks. The people in our pews might be facing a heck of a lot more hatred than you and I in the pulpit realize. In business, the hospitals, the schools wherever Christians work and live during the week, they are facing more and more opposition. Our ways do challenge and confront others, and yes I know people whose family members have turned away from them because of their commitment to Christ. Please take this seriously and don't make our flock feel worse - certainly out here on the prairie, we are struggling with these issues big time. Ask around this week and see what you find out about the opposition and even hatred your members are trying to cope with because they are Christian. You might be stunned by what you hear. Mary, I am not usually this wordy but I feel STRONGLY about this!
THIS text could be used for a subject which I heard will be the focus of worship for several churches throughout our Conference--the subject,which I don't know if it is a ecumencial subject for this day or not, is Christian persecution world-wide Anyone have any more info? STAN
RICK IN VA--you will want to go to seminary, because the great thing about seminary is that it is a different experience for all who attend-there will be some who will "slam" it and if you dig deeper, you might find they didn't invest a whole lot in it. Might find that they only wanted the "sheepskin" for credential sake. Their manipulation shouldn't be an indictment on the seminary process. Neither should the fact that we are all different and will see things different and will have a personal, distinctive faith journey. Also, the seminary process will put you in touch with ideas, beliefs and persons that you normally would not come into contact. And it would hone and refine that fierce spirit for gospel truth that you have in you, not dilute it,but hone it. I know your razor sharp reply to Bruce could be considered pruning, but whether you are being cut on or cut down, cutting can hurt. Something I learned in seminary preaching was a fact about the delivery. Pro. Craddock said, if preachers shout all the time, the congregation will learn to tune them out. Why doesn't someone ask Bruce his thoughts behind not preaching a literal judgement. FOR MARY--I totally agree with you. We should talk to our people--we might be surprised at the persecution they experience--when I asked my youth group what they would want to tell the adults of the church, they said, how hard it is to maintain a Christian witness in school. STAN
If I believe that "judgement day" is not meant to be a literal reality, then: how can we approach this text without preaching a literal judgement day? (you all have had much worthwhile to say but no one has taken a shot at answering the question)
Bill in TN
Greetings all - This is my first attempt to "speak" with you all though I have been following the discussions for the last 2 or 3 weeks. First let me say Thank You! I have longed for this type of discussion ... I am also in a very rural area in my first appointment. I keep you all in my prayers. Now on to this text... there seem to be lots of meat here. 1) No one knows when ... address the beginning and building media and cultural fear of the Milenium 2) wars, famines, plagues ... all of which will give you an opportunity to testify. I think that's where I'm going to try to focus this week. All of the "chances" we are given to testify... if we are bold and faithful enough to do it. That's all for now. RevAmy
Friends - When I was suffering as a result of my addiction to alcohol and trying to overcome it in a program of AA one of the sayings that someone used helped me. For some reason, when I read this passage, I thought of it. The saying was: "It takes whatever it takes for as long as it takes -- and in the meantime, it is a very meantime." So I plan to name my sermon "Living in the Meantime" Sometimes the world is mean to godly people -- sometimes church people are mean to their own -- sometimes we have to struggle with consequences of our sin (judgment days?) and it feels downright mean and unfair. How are we to live -- indeed, how are we to survive -- in these times? Jesus is warning his disciples that following him will not be all fun and games, good news and pie in the sky. There will be some mean times. But the price one has to pay is worth it. Sometimes that is so unbelievable. REvKK
I'm lucky that I don't have to preach this one, because I'd be in the same position as Bill, not believing that this refers to a literal, future, judgement day - I'm more interested in Christ the King next week which I DO have to preach...However, isn't the way into this, particularly at the end of Year C and Luke's gospel, to point out that Luke is a two volume record, and that by the time Luke and Acts were written the day of judgement 'prophesied' here had probably already occurred, with the destruction of Jerusalem? Yet Acts still finishes with the gospel having spread as far as Rome. So the point would perhaps be, as Mother Julian of Norwich said, 'he did not say, "You shall not be tempest-tossed, you shall not be work weary, you shall not be discomforted." But he said, "You shall not be overcome."'Mike Truman, Reader in training, All Saints Guildford
I must confess that I don't have any problem with preaching the end-time. I have no reason to doubt Jesus on this one. The question becomes, how to prepare. Prepare with great stores of food? Maybe bomb shelters? Or: prepare our hearts. Preparing our hearts for the end of time says something about getting right with God, about finally loving our neighbors as ourselves, about standing up for what we believe. We cannot foretell the end of time, and I believe the scriptures point us away from futile guesswork.
Nail-Bender - Mahalo for your good words. I am in rural Hawaii, nearest UM is about 60 miles away.... I do not know whether the book has something i could/would use, just curious. I do not even know whether the divorcing couple would want anything -- they have always ben pretty low-profile. But I am interested in the concept. Not that there is anything sacramental about divorce, but for a Christian couple who has seriously tried, perhaps the church could ameliorate a bit of the pain...... Next time I am in that area I'll drop in and see what's to see.
To: pw in PA: I have added you to my prayers.
HW in HI
I think REvKK has given an excellent answer to Bill. If you don't think judgement is "literal," I would sugest making it personal. For me, I agree with Dr. Laura that if there isn't a Judgement Day, I am going to be very ticked! There is too much evil in the world (and in me) to let it go unjudged. But as REvKK says, "It takes whatever it takes for as long as it takes."
To Rick in Va, I recomend seminary. They need you! I attended a Conservative seminary here in Kentucky which apparently has now been taken over by VERY conservatives. My denomination no longer recognizes it. I wrote this during my stay there. You might find it help4ful, or at least amusing!
MODERWOCKY
'Twas Bultmann and the liberal mind Did exegete pericope And Heilsgeschicte they did find Became JEDP.
Beware the moderate, my son, The questions sly, then answers fast. Beware philosophers and shun The liberal ethics class.
So seminary entered he With fertile mind and books in hand His parents paid, they weren't afraid He'd vowed to take a stand.
And as he sat with open mind A moderate philosopher Came in the class from the behind Attacking what was sure.
One, Two! One, Two! And black and blue The certainties fell to the ground. They left some there and with the spare They built a system sound.
"And hast thou become moderate? Out of our church, you wicked boy! Oh, hateful day we sent away Our blessed pride and joy!"
'Twas Bultmann and the liberal mind Did exegete pericope And Heilsgeschicte they did find Became JEDP.
KenTucky
Hi, All!
I discovered this site a few weeks ago when I was desperate for some sermon ideas. The site is aptly named! You probably won't hear from me often, as many of my best sermons don't come together until very late Saturday night or early Sunday morning. However, I've started early this time.
I'm to do a children's sermon this week, and it looks like that may be a difficult task, now that I have looked at the lessons. Any thoughts?
In response to some of your postings about persecution: I am both a lesbian and a Christian, and for me the two are intimately entangled. I only admitted my sexual orientation to myself and others BECAUSE I discovered it as part of my spiritual journey. Sometimes I and other gay & lesbian people are persecuted and criticized BY those claiming to speak for "the church". At other times, tho, we are persecuted by other gays & lesbians because we are PART OF the church. Getting hit from both sides!
If I were doing an adult sermon this week it might have something to do with how hurtful people can be to one another and encouraging tolerance & love. Maybe I can use something like that for the children.....Hmmmm...
Thanks for listening to me think out loud!!
Laurie in CA
To Bill in TN. Here perhaps is a non-literal interpretation, though I suspect what you're after is a common-sense, "literal" understanding without all of the apocalyptic imagery. It is said that judgement, any judgement, is that time when you realize, perhaps for the first time in your life, that today does not owe you a tommorrow. We always want to say, "Never give up. It's never too late--you want to go back to school at 48, do it, it's never too late," or whatever the situation might be. But perhaps there are times when it is too late. For the elderly lady whose sister passed before she could retract their last arguement--it is too late. There are no more tommorrows. Life throws many such mini-judgements at us. Perhaps Jesus is saying that the gift of life itself carries within it its own judgement. Perhaps if we could truly see that today does not owe us a tommorrow, we could look to the gift and the giver and avoid the judgement. I heard an old preacher say one time, "Read the end of book, people, we win!" Isn't that what Luke's assuring the community of. Buran in Florida.
STAN, Mary and others (?),
The English language is under assault today in many clever and manipulative ways. Words like tolerance, love and yes, even persecution must now be strained through agenda filters before they make any real sense. I'm one to assume (perhaps wrongly) that Laurie in Ca and I would disagree on the meaning of these three words.
An article that eloquently explains this can be found at http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/03-21-98/cultural_2.asp
A more recent article written by Marvin Olasky (try http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/11-14-98/closing_2.asp ) describes the kind of 'persecution' the church is experiencing now and will to worse degrees in the future here in the good old US of A.
STAN,
My reply to Bill in TN was not intended to be 'razor sharp', however, cyber communications can appear to be sharper without the accompanying 'body language'. No offense was intended. I'm simply curious (inquisitive) as to mind-sets. You're right, I should've simply asked. Since He's already answered and predictably so, we'll let that one go.
Bill in TN,
When one stands in shifting sands, one shouldn't expect to have questions answered satisfactorily. No offense is meant but I simply wouldn't know how to preach something you don't believe in. If there's no judgment day, there's no need for Jesus. Why preach at all?
RevAmy,
Thanks for being "bold and faithful' enough to be a post-er here at the DPS.
HW in HI,
The Scriptures do point us away from guesswork. Unfortunately too many of us are pointing to guesswork that takes us away from Scripture.
Rick in Va
Just a simple question: Do you thing that el nino / la nina is the sign(s) of the end? Could the millennium bring forth a future beyond our wildest dreams / nightmares? How do we explain the terror of fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, storms, floods, volcanoes coming to life? Do we dismiss these portents or do they have some meaning for the people of faith? I am no fundamentalist, but I am wondering about what all of this may mean?
Tom in GA
(1) Resource: Edvard Munch's "The Scream" or "Cry" unveils the radical "ending of endings" acttually coming. (2). The "paradigm shift" did not first emerge in our cultural age of "future shock". Jesus continues to press us in the mystery of revelation to go beyond our old horizons, as they disintergrate into the "dry rot" of nothingness, and to "see", and "see", for the first time a new creation emerging out of death. (3) If you ever experience your son or daughter beating you to the grave, and everthing disappearing before your eyes, then you will know there is no "pain" in any moment, anywhere, ...no ending in any moment, any where..., greater than that heartbreak of that "ending". From this perspective Munch's painting, as well as Jesus' teaching, become a new paradigm to reveal the "quality of temporality" is the essence of this sacred eschatological story rather than some "illusion" about chronos' "literalism" implying something about a future,- removed from the present-, chronological-quantitative time waiting to happen. Perhaps to so murder the "grace-in- judgement day" in order to avoid the "pain" now...and all in the name of "preaching the hard judgement day"...is to be insensitive to the radical ending of endings in the crucifixion when the curtain of the temple is torn into...and we can see "Nothing" is in the "holy of holies"....except the fullness of a love that never dies from a God who so loved the pain-filled world...even me, even me! (4). Bultmann gave some of us a precious gift in bidding us to understand the "worldview" of that moment in which our covenant people gave birth to oral faith stories, later to be written. However, that is only apart of the equation. The frame work, windows, eye glasses, self-centered agendas out of which persons perceive and meaning-make in the cultural context of a disintergrating modern worldview, divorced from any historical awareness of a witness of faith from a past age, is promoted as somekind of "literal" truth...as if one is a heretic if this is not accepted as THE TRUTH! WE need to demythologize on both ends of the interpretation, the first century as well as this recent time when even the "literalism" of the emerging physics of the new post-modern world has taken the "literal" out of the "modrn worldview" which is in a state of "dry rot"." Literal" ain't going to get us there anymore...if it ever did. The Church has led the way for centuries in the "interpretation" of faith stories.., especially the first centuries following Pentecost. I believe it would be a tragedy if a philosopher and literary critique such as Jacques Derrida out did the Church in this new age in the task of understanding the "art of interpretation" , especially when the Church gave him the model to start with! (5). I hope all my "moments don't finall "burn up" in the never ending flames of the city dump, i.e., Gehenna, while I only see "god" in a remote distant past, which is no more, or see him only out yonder in a future, which is not yet, and in the mean time I have ignored the "stranger" who has walked with me, even through my hell, every step of the way.......Perhaps, my DPS family, I am getting old and out of tune with the now time, but I believe, after several University degrees, none can ever match the wonder, pain, and beauty of Perkins School of Theology, S.M.U., which I believe was an instrument of God in providing grace and vision needed for Walking the Glory Road thus far. I can't imagine continuing the sacred journey without the wisdom and love of that community of faith. I encourage all to find the community of faith, and learning, and togrow beyond the old frames, the old paradigms, for I can assure you Jesus will come and break the old ones to pieces. PaideiaSCO in the delta and swamps of LA.
Re signs of the end: Last week preaching from the 2 Thessalonians text on the Anti-Christ, I used the example of rattlesnakes and rustling leaves (I used to be Scoutmaster) Many people mistake rustling leaves for a rattlesnake, but I have never heard of anyone who mistook a rattlesnake for rustling leaves. Joe in GA
I want to tell all of you "Be careful what you say about judgment and the end times. Remember that as the "holy person of God" your voice is LOUD! And boy am I ever glad I'm Lutheran: God has already judged me(and no doubt found me very very wanting) But I am forgiven and guilt free! Not because of myself but because of God's gift! Hey,preachers be careful, most people are carrying burdens already too heavy, and Jesus had the harshest words for those religious leaders who put more burdens on people than they could bear. I don't have a clue what these apocalyptic scriptures mean and I'll continue to stuggle with them. But I won't preach judgment, but grace. Cuz that's all that's worth preaching. gail
Maybe I'm missing something, but all this talk about a final judgment is a little confusing in the context of this passage. We read this passage in a Bible study a few weeks ago and I asked the group what they thought Jesus was talking about. One 75 year old woman said, "It sounds like business as usual." Not far from the truth, I fear. Jesus is obviously speaking about the persecution the early church and His disciples will face. He is also speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD) rather than the end of the world. It seems to me that the message here addresses the question of what really lasts, or rather in what can we put our faith. One can't find ultimate security in human relationships (brother against brother), in institutions (not one stone on another); Nor can one expect the comfort of being accepted by the world (persecution) or in the leaders of this world (false Messiahs). Rather, those who take disicpleship seriously can only find acceptance, comfort and true guidance in Christ. I don't know how to unpack this in a sermon, but it's the direction I'm taking. CSS
All this talk about the End Days, and the Judgement Day.... leaves me yawning..... this same talk has been with us before, during and since the Early Church..... Jesus cautions us not to spend too much time trying to figure the time and signs. To those of us who are busy doing that, i suggest that we have too much time on our hands, and we need to go out and be useful.... go visit some shut-ins, some people in the local jail, sit in the local court room and see what is happening to the children of God, day by day. To me, the Acclamation "Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again" is true... but not that we need to try to figure out the judgement message with volcanos, hurricane Mitch, el nino and his kid sister la nina....... let's drag ourselves into the 19th century.... get ahold of the reality of meterology, and stop dipping into the secrets of the tea leaves.... For me the End Days, and Judgement is the way we have to explain that God has the last word..... we don't know when or how our end will come, or this planet will end.... we don't know anything about heaven or hell.... we just speculate a whole lot about the temperature and the furniture ..... but in the end.... it's GOD. WHY DO WE FEEL that we have to spell out what is clearly a mystery..... accept that God is in charge... in faith.
Don Hoff elmira, new york
to Laurie- thank you for sharing something of yourself with us... who you are is very important to you, and to us. I know that life as a lesbian/gay/bi Christian is filled with challanges that only a few of us can imagine. I have seen how the Church is often a very hostile and unloving enviornment. I appreciate you courage. Thanks for being here with us.Our congregation is an open and affirming community and stands in solidarity and compassion with all our brothers and sisters, whatever the price.
Don Hoff elmira, NY donaldhoff@aol.com
Beyond the question of a "literal day" of Judgement this text also dispenses with some popular, non-Biblical ideas that are floating around. Did you notice that the faithful are called on to endure the sufferings. Those who follow Christ will not be raptured away as cars collide without drivers in them anymore. Instead, we are called on to ungo the suffering, to endure through ALL of IT!
I guess the author of the fantasitcly popular "Christian" book LEFT BEHIND and the others that followed will have to crouch under his church pew this Sunday.
You could always use your "Pre-, Post-, Pan-millenialist" joke: I'm a pan-millenialist: I think with God in control things will all kind of Pan out in the end.
Besides, who says were aren't living in those "End Times" as we have for the past 2,000 years... There are Christians being persecuted in parts of the world today in ways that most North Americans, myself included, cannot even fathom. Afganistan? El Slavador? Asia? The cries of American Christians about not being able to enjoy a priveledged place in society (leading prayer in pUblic Schools, Blue Laws, loss of influence in the neighborhood...) -- these cries of persecution are so repugnant to the Word of God when sat next to the plight of the Afgan Christians.
End times? Who knows, but there's more here than just Apocolypse according to Pat Robertson.
PW in PA
Nail Bender in NC
Very true, very true. I apologize for coming on to hard about the Book of Worship. Honestly, though the UMC provides its hymnals, BofW, etc at very good rates, and I'm not sure posting the entire BofW on the internet would fall within the guidelines of legal usage of coptrighted material. On the otherhand, you could just borrow one from someone, but that would require not spending so much time in front of the computer... Sorry, I let some more sarcasim slip out again. Some of the other means of relating to people might be better employed in finding the information you seek. Of course, there is an electronic version of the BofW so someone could pirate the whole thing rather easily and you could download the whole kit and kaboodle.
HW in HI This cold must really be getting to me, because I just reviewed a couple previous posts and I'm a tad disappointed with myself. I apologize and thank you for your prayers.
Healing divorce is a very difficult subject isn't it? We tell ourself that our marriage will go on forever, that everyuthing will be happy and cheerful. We ever surround ourselves with other couples so we can have a sense of community. Then something goes wrong. Fault it seems is everywhere. Whether affairs or just issolation - the "cause" seems to be everywhere. It is so much like death that many PC writers speak of divorce as death. I see, however, something especially grace-filling about the Christian Gospel. Good Friday and Easter, when remain together, can provide a model for healing can't they? Without Good Friday (and thus the honest and hard recognition of the "death of divorce") the Eastertime New-birth really doesn't mean much. And we all know what a perpetual Good Friday (without Easter) looks like. Together, they neither gloss over the pain nor wallow in the muck without hope.
If I had the electronic version of the UM BofW I'd be more than happy to send it to you - or pirate as I mistakenly said earlier. On the otherhand, there's nothig that keeps you from exploring your own faith, spirituality, and traditions to discover how the Spirit might be revelaing something to you as their pastor.
PW in PA
Don,Paideia,Laurie and others..thank you as always for your contributions. I agree wholeheartedly--many of our people are already bearing burdens of guilt we rarely even guess, and Jesus had a lot more to say about religious leadership afflicting the afflicted. Jesus IS talking about the most cataclysmic event in his people's history since the deportation to Babylon--the horrific destruction of Jerusalem. Not El Nino. Not La Nina. Luke is talking about the exclusion of Jewish Christians from the Synagogue, which was very painful. One version of creation has God creating order out of chaos--the "tohu rebohu." By defeating and holding back chaos, order and creativity emerge. This world is not, however, without conflict and disorder. That justice, mercy, and love prevail at all is a sign of God's continuing creative power holding back the chaos. To be judged is to be left to the consequences of our vices and our sins, or to be vindicated on account of Christ. We need to remember to WHOM judgment day belongs. It is God, standing at the end of time. It isn't about a what as much as it is about a Who, and the character of that Who. Chaos happens. What would I want to accomplish by preaching judgment (do we mean condemnation of sins here or vindication of the righteous?) to congregations of the baptized? Before we hitch our horses to a string of condemnations, we need to be very clear what we wish to accomplish among the baptized children of God by doing so. If we want to talk about judgment as the anger of God, we need to be very very very sure we are not projecting our own self-righteousness, petty peaves, and anxieties and calling that God's judgment. Kathleen Norris has a really excellent little section on Anger in her most recent book, "Amazing Grace..." In it she describes the purity and clarity of God's anger...so different from our own. God's anger at injustice and suffering is holy. It means that one day the griefs we have endured and the injustices we suffer will be vindicated. To live by faith means that we can trust that, and be freed in our present lives. Human anger is always tainted by self interest. She put this so much better...and the book is at my office. I have a lot of folks in my pews who would love to hear me preach hellfire and brimstone--so that they can feel smugly confident that none of it is going to come down on their heads. That's the conceit we can easily fall into when we preach thus. Betsy in OH
Laurie-
I just want to offer that one possible thought for a kids' sermon might be talking about how we can be led astray. False truth, false leaders. Or talking about how it is hard to be a Christian today. My own kids struggle with this, being PK's, and wanting to be part of the "in crowd" (whatever it is called today) - and standing in faith. And the rewards of that faith. I think we someimes underestimate kids all the way around - the depth of their struggles and pain, the depth of their faith, their ability to stand up for Jesus....
HW in HI
From a lurker: Whether or not Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple, or a literal day of judgment, it seems to me the point is still the same. V.19 says "by your endurance you will gain your souls." Last week's epistle said the same thing - stand firm. It's how we live our lives that really matters, because no one knows when the end will come, whether it is our own death or the end of the world. For me the question is do I "love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strenth, and do I love my neighbor as myself?" When we live that way, then we are ridiculed and persecuted, and not just by the world. Just some thoughts. I'm in the early stages of sermon prep.
To all of you who post regularly: thank you for your insights and your sharing. I visit frequently, and you continually challenge and inspire me.
Cheryl in VA
Betsy in Ohio,
Are you aware of how smugly confident you're coming across as you wax eloquent about what it is your parishioners are thinking and feeling.
Are you not condemning and judging them?
I'm always amused (and logically perplexed) by those who vilify and denounce the puported condemners. Sounds a bit like a Pharisee to me.
I believe if my words were re-read above, you'd see that I was asking that there be a balance in our preaching. God's grace makes absolutely no sense and is cheapened when absent God's judgment. That is all that I'm saying. I think we should preach that one day (or one moment so as not to take judgment day 'literally') we will all be judged. It's comnpletely Scriptural. However, there is thanks to be given to God, who gives us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The people in the pews are not devoid of logic and the ability to think. God is a God of Justice and of Mercy. A God of Righteousness and a God of Grace. We get to choose, through our advocate Jesus Christ, which will apply to us individually.
If there's something wrong with that theology, would someone please help me understand where I'm going down the wrong path.
I agree that the pews might be filled with the baptized but might there also be some out there who need conversion? Does baptism alone mean saved from judgment? If so why not open up human car washes, roll them people through there and be done with it.
Preach God' Grace. Often. But understand that the Good News logically means there must be some Bad News out there.
Just trying to understand,
Rick in Va
My good fellow sojourners,
We seem to be speaking much of judgement in our discussion concerning this passage, and indeed, it is a passage of judgement and proclamation, however, not so much in relation to some future occurrence, as in the moment of the "eschatological now." As my friend, PaideiaSCO so eloquently states, it is a word which calls us to "go beyond our old horizons, as they disintegrate into the "dry rot" of nothingness, and to "see", and "see", for the first time a new creation emerging out of death."
Judgement, we are all called to judgement, each and every day, each and every moment, each and every time we make a decision within the realm of Kingdom or beyond the realm of Kingdom. And always, and always, God calls us to judgement on the weight of our actions in the face of who we are, in the face of whose we are, in the face of the categorical basis of God's prophetic word of love, in the face of God's restorative justice. All of these past weeks we have been moving toward this point of judgement and we have heard the voice of God calling us to love, reminding us that it is not the rich, the powerful, the "good" folks who are blessed, but the poor, the marginalized, the needy, and that in meeting them, we too might discover our own poverty, our own dark hole of the soul. We have heard the voice of God calling us to bear, to carry, the cross which doesn't bring peace but division. We have heard the voice of God calling us seek justice as a widow who stands before the unrighteous judge, even in the face of tyranny, even in the face of certain dismissal or even death. We have heard the voice of God calling us to celebrate a love which searches out the one who is lost rather than venerate the tranquil many who are found, which acknowledges the cry of the sinful rather than the boast of the righteous, which embraces the foreigner, even the unclean foreigner. Yes, judgement, judgement not in our ability to engage in the niceties of good civil behavior, but in the face of possibilities of connecting to life from the underside, in the places where Christ says he will "be," in the face of being created anew.
And isn't it interesting, in this text, it is not God who offers up condemnation or punitive action, but the, the nation, the state, the Church. For justice, God's restorative undersided justice, will always challenge the principalities and powers of this eschatological now, especially those of Religion. For it is there, perhaps more than any other place, where the world, especially Western consumerist-power-centrist values find legitimization. As PW proclaimed so well (yes, PW, with no sarcasm, I chuckled at your earlier response for me, well stated my friend and well received), this is not about persecution as it pertains to rejection of life-style or value system, but the destruction of the body, the annihilation of the person, of betrayal and even of death. It is persecution which comes out of the challenge of love. It is persecution which leads to the cross and to the Christ.
For in the end, that is where the soul resides, that is where justice resides, that is where judgement resides - in the Christ. And in Christ, there is no condemnation … There is no condemnation! Justice, judgement, life -- in the choices we make, each and every day, within the realm of Kingdom or beyond.
By your endurance, you will gain your souls.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Cheryl -- let us hear from you more often. YOU are important to US, too!
Gail, I'm with you. Salvation doesn't depend on some folk not being saved. I believe we are given a choice -- there is a "hell" if that is what you want to call it -- but I believe it is empty. When each of us comes "face to face" with God, the love and grace of God is so great that finally even the most hard-hearted of us is brought home to God's bosom. I cannot limit the way God works to the limited human plane of reality. THAT is the God I know. We do have choice, but when faced with such purity of love, what can one do?
I may be entirely too practical here, but I think Luke is using the words of Jesus to bolster the confidence and resolve of a congregation that feels battered by the world and cannot understand why Jesus has not yet come again. If Jesus' words speak directly to them, the miracle of the Bible is that they speak even more directly to us, too. How long, O Lord, how long? For some reason the scattering of the stones of the temple are to me the efforts of the forces of the world to scatter and separate the body of Christ, the Church. We are being told here that the Church is the people, not the stone-upon-stone structure, not the building.
We are Living Stones. We take Christ into the world with every breathing moment of our lives. We come together in many different configurations -- and it is impossible to destroy a structure that can be so plastic.
Reread the words to "A Mighty Fortress is Our God", that great Luther hymn. The power of a word. The power of The Word.
What do you think? Preacherlady
Sisters and Brothers -- we are all on the same side!
PLEASE be aware of the one-dimensionality of this kind of electronic communication. We cannot "read" facial expressions or hear emotion in voices. This wonderful resource will silence some valuable and truly delightful input -- and possibly cause hurt -- if we are not careful. PLEASE reread your submission before you send it. Be aware of how your "tone" may be read -- or mis-read. Let us hold one another up to be our best.
Rick in Va: I want to thnk you for the story of the three trees. my sister in law has the book and i borrowed it and told the story as my sermon this past Sunday for a children's service. People were crying by half way through. i too hope you will go to seminary. for me, i wanted to be the best preacher and minister i could possibly be for God, and so seminary was crucial, to learn all i could learn. i attended one that was not my own denomination (mainly because it was close) but it also helkped me to see why i believe the way i do, to stretch me where differences came up, to open me to other ways of doing things which are also Christian although not familiar to me.
For everyone: the first week i was in law school i was taught that Judgment is spelled Judgment, not judgement. amazing now that , as poorly as i type, it bothers me to see the word spelled with an "e".
however, judgment is not what i thought of when i read this passage either. i too thought like preacherlady that this is to help people endure the persecutions they are already under. Stan, i keep reading about people being persecuted, but i haven't kept up with where. your local newspaper or library may be of help. yesterday the ministers group locally began to talk about homosexuality - people of the same denomination but of differing theologies when it came to this,. mostly the group tried to caution the one who wanted to label, because we have ssen so many hurt in the name of Christianity. people already feel judged!! my husband drove a limo the other night and the people were a little crazy, but nothing hurtful or sinful that i was told. on monday at work they were told by some members of my church that their driver was my spouse. the preacher's spouse - oh no! they already feel judged! how difficult it is to get people in the door of the church when they "know" they will hear judgment when they get inside. and they don't hear that love of God sodesperately calling out to them. they become like children hiding away so that their parents won't punish them. God loves us. God loves us. Christ said not to worry when those others come against you - formally or informally - because he would be with us, would give us words and wisdom. yes, this is about encouragement.
sorry to write so much, but i wanted to skip this passage because this is our "stewardship emphasis week" but i do hear so much about the End near the year 2000, and i do believe that we should live everyday as if it is the end - it may be for any of us. any of us could die at any moment.
thanks. grace and peace be yours, rachel
Laurie in CA, Hope this isn't too late, but you might want to check out Moira's site. She often has wonderful children's experiences for worship and this week is no exception. HTTP://www.thecitadel.com/liturgies/index.html gretz
Isn't it interesting to think about the investment we make in trying to divine the future and, in doing so, fritter away so many opportunities to live joyfully and usefully in the present. Jesus tells his disciples not to waste time trying to prepare "appropriate remarks" for the day on which they might be dragged before kings and governors. Live now, in the present, he seems to be saying, and let the Holy Spirit provide the words for you whenever they need to be spoken.
The folks addressed in Thessalonika (in the epistle reading) were so caught up in their expectations about the future, they neglected the things that needed to be addressed in the present. "Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives" (Lk. 12:43).
"Don't stop thinking about tomorrow" make have something to say as a campaign song, but too much thinking about tomorrow can be spiritually pathological. Perhaps George MacDonald said it best: "The next hour, the next moment, is as much beyond our grasp and as much in God's care, as that a hundred years away. Care for the next minute is just as foolish as care for the morrow, or for a day in the next thousand years--in neither can we do anything, in both God is doing everything. Those claims only of the morrow which have to be prepared today are of the duty of today: the moment which coincides with work to be done is the moment to be minded; the next is nowhere till God has made it."
Bill (trying to learn to live in the present) in SoMD
G'day everybody I just want to say that I read these discussions week after week and I find them really helpful. Thanks
Geoff in Australia
I'm another Australian who regularly visits this site - I'm not a preacher, but an Elder and Chairperson of Church Council. I attend a weekly Lectionary bible study group, and find this often adds a completely different perspective.
I also really appreciate the sense of community amongst contributors - it goes against those people who think computers and the internet only serve to isolate people.
Mary in Australia
I'd have to say that I agree with those who are more literalists re: the coming day of judgment, but that I think Bill in SoMD is closer to getting at the kernel of what this text is all about, and especially as the Gospel text relates to the 2nd Lesson from 2 Thess. . . I always think of the movie, "Hoosiers" when reading Lk 21:5-6: the little team from some little school makes it to the final playoffs in the large stadium. They are wowed at their accomplishments. So, too, the disciples. The whole point in Luke's Gospel has been Jesus destination: Jerusalem. The big time. I think the little band of disciples were like that little school's basketball team. . . . So Jesus takes them down a few pegs. And in doing so, once again reminds them that the Kingdom of God is not like what they imagine! . . . The most striking phrase, to me, is v.14: "So make up your minds NOT to prepare your defense." Big stuff for most people in the pews. -- Martin in Sioux Falls
Today I sit here listening to the Spirit telling me that we can no longer sit idly by and wait until the world sees us in a good light. That we must take to the streets with the Good News and not be ashamed of it. That we have a hope, and faith that will endure - despite the persecution that we bear. I know that the God I serve will protect me and lead me to sharing my faith with those that ridicule or even revile me and that that sharing will lead to God's Kingdom growing. You see everyday I sustain ridicule and contempt - outwardly. There have even been times when our services were disrupted by others that ridiculed and threatened us. But we stood firm and God provided the increase.
What am I talking about here? Christians that happen to be Gay. They are ridiculed by the very tribe to which they belong - because how could you believe in a God that condemns you - and whose followers are worse than that. How can you believe in anything that might be seen as a sop for the opposite side. Seen as feeble and irrelevant.
Then we have our wonderful Christain Brothers and Sisters that do much the same thing. Throwing us away in a garbage heep and telling us that we are faking it. That we are playing church. Makes you want to give up on both sides. Say they are both wrong and that you need to retreat in to a quite place for the rest of your life. Hurts and pains do not heal easily - martydom might be better than slow death of the Spirit because you are attacked on both sides.
Today, I KNOW what it means to be persecuted for Christ, and I will subject myself to the possibility again and again to bring some hope to the very ones that do it.
IN Christ's Love, Greg in Nashville
She came to us. She came on this spiritual retreat. I wondered why. It was apparent that she didn't have much use for the church, and from her disposition, it was even more apparent that the church didn't have much use for her. When she spoke, she almost hissed. Though she never said the words, and though her sexual orientation would remain a mystery, I was sure there were those who would whisper as she entered the sanctuary, who would quickly glance in her direction and then look away, whose eyes would dart toward her and then, in a knowing look, back to their neighbor. Their eyes would say it all - gay … lesbian … sinner … filth.
Soon, it became apparent that she carried pain, so much pain - excruciating pain, pain of her broken and battered body, but worse, pain of her broken and battered soul.
It was almost overwhelming, washing over the table like a tidal wave, carrying all of us before it, the pain of so many wrongs done to her and so many hurts suffered by her. We tried to reach out to her, to touch her in some way, but she drew back…she always drew back, away from our touch, as if she were afraid that in touching us, she would break, crashing down into a thousand pieces. And so, she sat for most of the time, arms crossed, protecting herself from her terrible brokeness, protecting herself from any hurt which we might bring.
Then Lord, and then, how you blew onto our table, how you blew into the cesspool which can be life and into the garden which life can be. How you so crashed into our existence and swept away those things which we thought we knew, and how in the wild, rushing wind of the Spirit you shouted truth. How you blew onto our table, with all our doubts and fears, with all our well constructed understanding, and Lord, you made us all small and human, your voice broke through the noise of our pride and made us stop and listen.
And Lord, there she was, the wounded nurse! What a miracle she is. What a power she can be. She is so broken, physically and emotionally. Yet, there in her resides strength and light! In her resides beauty and glory and passion! She knows, yet she doesn't know. Again Lord, the pain and the hurt, how deep it is, how harsh the wound. But Oh Lord, your light, how it shines through, how it shines through, burning and unmistakable, shines to us who thought we understood.
How powerful was her story. There, right at the end, she shared it. How she went into that hospital room where his broken body lay, ravished by Aids, into that hospital room where his crushed spirit resided, destroyed by the contempt of the world, devastated by the contempt of people who claim you. He was crushed, Lord, by us, people who should have known better.
Yet, she went in, amid his anger, into the face of his anger, violent and searing. She went in, where no one else would venture. Even after he threw his food tray at her, with mashed beans dripping from the door frame. "No matter what," she said, "No matter what." "You can be angry, and I'll come to you. You can hit me and hurt me and insult me, and I'll come to you. You can hate me, and I'll come to you." And then he threw his knife at her, accompanied in-flight by insults and curses -- and still she went in and came to him! Still, she came to him.
And then Lord, who could believe it, and then, she kneeled beside him, removed her rubber gloves and placed her skin on his skin. She placed her skin on him. Her skin -- the skin of Jesus. Touching, caressing, and loving. And they cried -- together, in the midst of the pain and the horror of it all. And he had life, life over death, life beyond death, life in the face of death.
And we thought we knew her. Oh Lord, how can we be so blind?
My Sister, my sister, by your endurance you will gain your soul.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Thank you, Greg, thank you. We so need your voice.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Friends,
What does it mean to you that you will be judged? Isn't that the problem? So afraid of the "Final Judgement" that we're shell-shocked over the idea of beibng judged. But we will all be judged! But not by some evil, vile creature we conjure up in the innermst sanctums of doubt and fear. No, we will all be judged by the smae one who redeemed us. The God the Living, the Light of the World, the Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer will be the one who is our judge. That time of judgement - which is on-going and ever-present today - is an act of Grace. We have our Charge Conference coming up tomorrow, and this will be the first year I am actually looking forward to it. It is our chance as a congregation to be formally held accountable to the Annual Conference. Some are afraid of being judged, of being called to give an accounting of our ministry, our response to God's call, and our fruit. Instead, we should welcome the opportunity. Would it be better to continue to falter unknowingly, to abuse others while unaware, or to squander gifts and graces for years than to be called on the carpet and allow the knife of Christ to cut through our sins? The question is rhetorical, but how often do we answer through silence and sabotage that we'd rather just mire in the mud than stand up and be counted? To be judged is to discover what is well and what is in need of repair. Perhaps we do not need to remain solely within the "apocalyptic genre" when discussing judgement. Certainly, this era's understanding of judgement focused on the "Final Judgement" but there are numerous other biblical accounts of God's judgement that contain nothing about the End being Near.
By your endurance you will gain your souls! Stamina, courage, faith, and hope will carry you through the times of judgement. Those same gifts will also allow you to: (ISA) "See, I am doing a New thing!" The old heaven will pass away - John the Island dweller says. All the things I strove for in life- security, stress-free living... These will all pass away. And all because of judgement. Who says being judged isn't graceful?
And if you endure- if you can weather the storms of change (even fundamental changes) - you will gain your souls. Cool stuff!
PW in PA
Friends,
What does it mean to you that you will be judged? Isn't that the problem? So afraid of the "Final Judgement" that we're shell-shocked over the idea of beibng judged. But we will all be judged! But not by some evil, vile creature we conjure up in the innermst sanctums of doubt and fear. No, we will all be judged by the smae one who redeemed us. The God the Living, the Light of the World, the Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer will be the one who is our judge. That time of judgement - which is on-going and ever-present today - is an act of Grace. We have our Charge Conference coming up tomorrow, and this will be the first year I am actually looking forward to it. It is our chance as a congregation to be formally held accountable to the Annual Conference. Some are afraid of being judged, of being called to give an accounting of our ministry, our response to God's call, and our fruit. Instead, we should welcome the opportunity. Would it be better to continue to falter unknowingly, to abuse others while unaware, or to squander gifts and graces for years than to be called on the carpet and allow the knife of Christ to cut through our sins? The question is rhetorical, but how often do we answer through silence and sabotage that we'd rather just mire in the mud than stand up and be counted? To be judged is to discover what is well and what is in need of repair. Perhaps we do not need to remain solely within the "apocalyptic genre" when discussing judgement. Certainly, this era's understanding of judgement focused on the "Final Judgement" but there are numerous other biblical accounts of God's judgement that contain nothing about the End being Near.
By your endurance you will gain your souls! Stamina, courage, faith, and hope will carry you through the times of judgement. Those same gifts will also allow you to: (ISA) "See, I am doing a New thing!" The old heaven will pass away - John the Island dweller says. All the things I strove for in life- security, stress-free living... These will all pass away. And all because of judgement. Who says being judged isn't graceful?
And if you endure- if you can weather the storms of change (even fundamental changes) - you will gain your souls. Cool stuff!
PW in PA
Just a thought--I hope it does not detract too much from some good discussion. Jesus' comments concerning the end of time/judgment were already well understood by the people. They were included in all the major prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel) as well as in Joel. Jesus may well be just reminding them that it is true that there will be an end of time/a day of judgment. They key may well be in verse 12 in the word "but." Jesus seems to be far more interested in how we live in the meantime--a time already pointed out to be a mean time, a time of persecution--not persecution because of your sex or sexual orientation or because of your skin color or national origin, but persecution because we profess Jesus Christ as Lord. Jesus says that the good news is that when we are persecuted we have the opportunity to testify. The truth of this is revealed in the persecution of Christians in many so-called "Third World" nations today, combined with the growth from around 20 million in 1960 to over 400 million Christians by the year 2000, whereas in the so-called Western world, we have grown from around 80 to 100 million Christians in the same time. There is indeed great power in the testimony of a persecuted Christian, as Christ Himself fills that testimony with His own words (vs. 15). Perhaps our problem here in the West is that we have not done or said anything that would make the "world" need or want to persecute us. Maybe we need to relook at how much we have accomodated to the world, rather than challenging the world to accept the good news of Christ, by living as joy-filled Christians in a world where joy is woefully lacking. I'm not sure where all this is leading, but if you have any suggestions, I could use a few. Thanks. Art in KY
Just a few thoughts this evening as I follow the discussion: 1) I remember as a young girl (4 or 5)I asked my dad what it meant to be a United Methodist. My dad answered that for him it meant living each day as if it were your only one... because each day was a gift. I think back to that these days... in terms of what it means to be a Christian, and if that's the standard, how am I measuring up. 2) Lots of discussion and thoughts out there about judgment. But looking back to what Jesus said... it seems to me that his main point is that in that situation (or those situations -- destruction of the temple, daily judgments in our lives, ultimate judgment or the 2nd Coming) is that we will have an opportunity to testify/bear witness with words that God will supply for us (ones that no one will be able to withstand or contradict)... Doesn't it seem that we're all more willing to listen and trust in God when we're in the midst of crisis... when we know our way isn't going to work anymore? And the result, by our endurance, we will gain our souls! And lastly (sorry this is so long) on the issue of being persecuted... I attended a predominantly UM seminary but had several female friends who were Baptist. Several of them shared along the way that because they were in what they often saw to be a hostile and foreign culture, they drew closer to one another... and attended more seriously to figuring out who they were and what they really believed in the face of all these Methodists talking about Wesley, order, etc. Another thing that comes to mind in our conference not long ago there was an article published about a young female minister who had been appointed and tried to join the local minister's association. They disbanded and formed a "Christian Men's Breakfast Group" so upset/threatened ? they were by a woman preacher in their midst. In my own appointment, one of my churches has an annual ecummenical Thanksgiving service with the Baptist and the Church of God churches. Just so happened my first year here it was the Methodist minister's (me) turn to preach the service in the Baptist church. It caused quite a problem! The Baptist minister who tried to cancel the service has since left. There are more examples of who as a "woman preacher" I have to fight (some people, some days) to be recognized as legitimate. I'm not saying this is the persecution that Jesus is talking about... it's just as close as I (a white, middle-class, American in the 20th Century) can come. Thanks for letting me process. Rev Amy
Just a few thoughts this evening as I follow the discussion: 1) I remember as a young girl (4 or 5)I asked my dad what it meant to be a United Methodist. My dad answered that for him it meant living each day as if it were your only one... because each day was a gift. I think back to that these days... in terms of what it means to be a Christian, and if that's the standard, how am I measuring up. 2) Lots of discussion and thoughts out there about judgment. But looking back to what Jesus said... it seems to me that his main point is that in that situation (or those situations -- destruction of the temple, daily judgments in our lives, ultimate judgment or the 2nd Coming) is that we will have an opportunity to testify/bear witness with words that God will supply for us (ones that no one will be able to withstand or contradict)... Doesn't it seem that we're all more willing to listen and trust in God when we're in the midst of crisis... when we know our way isn't going to work anymore? And the result, by our endurance, we will gain our souls! And lastly (sorry this is so long) on the issue of being persecuted... I attended a predominantly UM seminary but had several female friends who were Baptist. Several of them shared along the way that because they were in what they often saw to be a hostile and foreign culture, they drew closer to one another... and attended more seriously to figuring out who they were and what they really believed in the face of all these Methodists talking about Wesley, order, etc. Another thing that comes to mind in our conference not long ago there was an article published about a young female minister who had been appointed and tried to join the local minister's association. They disbanded and formed a "Christian Men's Breakfast Group" so upset/threatened ? they were by a woman preacher in their midst. In my own appointment, one of my churches has an annual ecummenical Thanksgiving service with the Baptist and the Church of God churches. Just so happened my first year here it was the Methodist minister's (me) turn to preach the service in the Baptist church. It caused quite a problem! The Baptist minister who tried to cancel the service has since left. There are more examples of who as a "woman preacher" I have to fight (some people, some days) to be recognized as legitimate. I'm not saying this is the persecution that Jesus is talking about... it's just as close as I (a white, middle-class, American in the 20th Century) can come. Thanks for letting me process. Rev Amy
Preacherlady -- Thanks for your submission about us being Living Stones! I agree... I just have to get quiet again now and figure out where God is leading me with all of this stimulating thoughts! God's blessings to all of you laboring and sharing God's love with folks (all of us) who are so hungry to hear and know that! Shalom -- RevAmy
TO ALL--Just read and re-read all your stuff-good, interesting, eyebrow-raising, amusing as usual. So, I re-read the text just to remind myself of our lesson and I tried to imagine Christ talking to me about my church being razed to the ground and I tried to imagine being persecuted for my faith and I tried to imagine being hated by my parents and brother and I tried to imagine how it would be to be on trial for my faith and to NOT construct a ready defense (v.14) Whether or not this speaks literally of that Judgment Day, or the destruction of the temple, I a struck by how much Christ wants us to trust Him to see it through. With every judgment, grace must be present-with every attempt to silence a voice, another must be heard and in every time of despair and tradegy, there must be a testimony, loud or quiet, thundering or whispering, full of hope and assurance--let the judgment come. I just want to be faithful to Christ. STAN
Grace and peace, all.
I've been inspired and warmed by your discussions the past several weeks. It seems like this week, also, you have taken each other by the hand to walk the journey to where Jesus is--to the lost, to the outcast, to the depths of our souls. The kingdom is where everyone will find a hand reached out to them. I'm glad you all have taken the time especially to welcome the new folks this week. Thank you for your hospitality and openness.
I felt urged to write in. I've read and reread the passage and can't find any evidence that Jesus is warning those at the Temple about Judgment Day. In fact, he says in v. 9 pretty much "This is routine history, and no sign of the end." If we are to represent Christ this Sunday, then let's preach what he was preaching: words of encouragement for perseverance to those who follow him.
I've been trying to discern how the "average" Christian in our churches is persecuted, as that is my audience. Christians persecuted from the outside (gay/lesbian Christians, Christians in other parts of the world, first century Christians)hold together and support each other. Yet, now we're persecuting each other from the inside --denominationally and even within the local church. It almost goes back to last week's Thess. passage--we've made our gods in the church. It gets so tiring.
Perhaps this sermon from Jesus is for us--those who have been faithful to God's call, those who have said "Yes." Keep on saying "yes." Keep preaching grace and the kingdom for those who no longer seem to believe it exists.
Min in NC
For those of you wondering where persecution is going on right now, the U.S. State Dept. lists more than 70 countries where persecution of Christians is either promoted or permitted, or where existing government policies limit freedom of religion or present potential trouble for Christians and other religious groups. The list runs from Afghanastan and Algeria to Vietnam and Yemen.
There are scads of organizations which provide more info. Try www.amnesty-usa.org or www.christianfreedom.org or www.persecution.org or www.persecution.com
or just go here
http://www.persecutedchurch.org/
We'll be using some of there stuff this Sunday trying to "Shatter the Silence" as this Sunday is the 1998 International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church. (You can also call toll free, 1-888-LET'S PRAY, that's 538-7772)
KenTucky
Dear Friends: Some great conversation so far. And some judgment (in a negative connotaion) already coming across in our own attitudes, yes? We do realize don't we that judgment can also be understood from a positive point of view? We make positive judgments every day, I would hope. The difference, perhaps in God's form of judgment is that is is not a condemnatory form of judgment. Anyway, there was an article in the UMContact last publication regarding small membership churches being closed because they were "judged" not to be fulfilling their mission of making disciples. Members of my congregation have felt very threatened by that, since our average attendance hovers around 25 elderly persons...no youth, no children, little capability of "being in mission." The stones are falling around them, and they are frightened. Their last refuge is their church -- and it certainly feels like a literal judgment day may be coming. My hope is to preach this text compassionately -- understanding their terror over the falling down of all the structures that they have trusted in over the years -- the structure of home, morals, politics, church, society. And they are being betrayed even by their own bodies and, so it seems, their own denominational officials. How are they to live? I think Jesus' advice may be helpful, if tough. Don't let it frighten you -- trust in God. Use it as an opportunity to witness. When everything else breaks down, God Is. There are lots and lots of last days and final judgments. Often those are exactly what is needed in order for new birth and resurrection to take place. I fight the end of things like crazy. We all do. Deaths and endings are frightening and sorrowful. But we can rejoice that our God is eternal...has no end, no beginning. And we live in him. Amen. RevKK
The one who judges me will be the very one who was willing to die on the cross for me. Therefore I have hope...........But I'm wondering why we got so far off on this tangent of judgement. Judgement is the context, but not the focus of this text...Am I right?............The focus of the text is persecution and faithfullness in persecution, and how God will sustain us in the face of persecution........Here is a thought: What if Sadamm really did begin to launch chemical and nuclear weapons and America was occupied by Islamic forces....Wonder what kind of persecution we'd experience as Christians then.....Just a thought
BS in NC
What a lengthy discussion - and very thought provoking. Thank you to all. When I see a variety of opinions,& orientations, I am challenged to think a little harder and go a little deeper. Here's a few words from Pulpit Resources(vol 26 #4) on this scripture. Willimon says all lectionary lessons point in the same direction today. Each says, "I have a vision for tomorrow, and here's how it looks. God will come, says the prophet, God will be with us, says the gospel. In the meantime we may live as those who have seen something about tomorrow which the world may not have glimpsed. In the end, God will be there. Here at the end of the church year, and at the end of our century, we live in a time of uncertanity. But as Christians we have seen the future and it is not a cold grave, it is the triumph of God.
Here's an appropriate story from Joanna Adams, "Faith and Fear," the Journal for Preachers vol XIX #4 "There's a Texas story about two little boys whose mother asks them to chase a chicken snake out of the henhouse. They looked everywhere for the snake, but couldn't find it. The more they looked, the more afraid they got. Finally they stood up on their tiptoes to look on the top nesting shelf and came nose to nose with the snake. They fell all over themselves and one another running out of the chicken house. "Don't you know a chicken snake won't hurt you?" Their momma asked, "Yes, ma'am," one of the boys replied, "but there are somel things that will scare you so bad you'll hurt yourself." - Sometimes seeing is more important than believing. Our vision makes a difference in how we think about reality - our vision becomes reality.
Thank you, Nailbender!!!!
Greg in Nashville, I too am a gay Christian (lesbian, actually)and pastor an MCC church. I wonder if you do, too. Feel free to email me at MCCCBUS@aol.com Amazing, isn't it, how other Christians sometimes persecute more than "outsiders"...
HAWK in Ohio
(Rom 8:3-6 NRSV) For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, {4} so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. {5} For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. {6} To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
I have had a hard time today with thoughts expressed. Especially in attempting to balance the desire of many to not be 'persecuted' while attempting to maintain the biblical principle that God condemns sin.
The persecution that I understand and know is the persecution felt by those who lift up the name of Christ in a world hostile to Christ, not by those affirming a self-serving lifestyle in a world of self-serving lifestyles.
If we as Christians call people out of adulterous lifestyles, are we persecuting them? If we call habitual liers out of a lifestyle of lying, are we persecuting them?
If the standard of what defines sin becomes anything other than God's Word, can you see how we might fall for defining sin as anything that we don't do and others do?
And if we adopt the idea that sin was done away with at Golgotha and all of us universally are bound for eternal life with God, no matter what we do in this life-time, no matter what lifestyle we engage in, then what motivates us to preach the Good News?
I believe firmly that ideas centered on persecution being defined as that felt by those choosing to stay in their sin are ideas centered in the flesh and not the Spirit.
Greg in Nashville,
I enjoy your posts and look forward to doing so again, however, if there isn't a fatal flaw in a theology that does not call people out of a lifestyle of sin then we have no business calling anyone out of any sinful lifestyle.
The largest reason it seems that the authority of Holy Scripture is questioned and maligned today is because it clearly speaks agains acts of the flesh and calls us into acts of the Spirit. If the authority of Scripture can be done away with, then affirming sin isn't affirming sin because sin is defined away.
10 years ago, before I became a Christian, I befriended a gay young man named Richard that I worked with. No one in the office would have much to do with him. He was extremely smart, friendly, and pleasant to be around. He had a great sense of humor. I was chastised for hanging out with him at the office by ignorant people. We would take breaks together. My point is that I cared nothing about his sexuality. I was not threatened by him. He was a human being like me trying to get along.
Since then I've come to know Christ in an intimate way. He called me out of a lifestyle of sin. He calls us all out of a lifestyle of sin. He calls Richard out of his lifestyle of sin. Although I lost contact with Richard when I changed jobs, if I worked with him today, I would be just as friendly as I was when I was 28. And I would tell him about Jesus and about how he calls us to go and sin no more.
If Richard chose to stay in the lifestyle, I would continue to befriend him and relate to him. For the last thing I would want to do is that which would separate me from God. And separating myself from sinners would be doing just that. It would also be impossible though wouldn't it, for aren't we all sinners in His sight?
I apologize for the length of this post. And I do not intend to offend anyone one. But I cannot buy into the idea that entire chunks of Scripture can simply be ignored. For eventually, while on that slippery slope, I would no longer buy into the idea that we are sinners in need of a Savior.
I need a Savior. I need Jesus Christ.
Rick in Va
Confession of an onlooker - I've been looking on for several months now. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts, ideas, reflections. I hear God speaking through so many of you - even when I disagree with you. This week I've seen no comment on the disparity between the Isaiah passage and this Lukan passage. Isaih is speaking of the Lion & the lamb and Jesus is telling us about wars and rumors of wars, destruction, desolation. Can both visions of the Kingdom be true? I was thinking of begining my sermon with the opening line from Dicken's "Tale of Two Cities"... "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going directly to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of the noisiest authorities insisted on its being recieved, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. Am I completely off-base, or is God showing us two visions of teh kingdom that seem incongrous, but are only another reflection of the "Peace that is no peace, but strife closed in the sod." Grace & Shalom, pastorchris
Another Lutheran throws in: thanks for the discussion, lots of good stuff! Sermon hymn: I want Jesus to walk with me. Theme: Jesus wants me to walk with him -- and we do so by holding the hands of still others on that journey. See you next week! Dick in St. Louis.
Another Lutheran throws in: thanks for the discussion, lots of good stuff! Sermon hymn: I want Jesus to walk with me. Theme: Jesus wants me to walk with him -- and we do so by holding the hands of still others on that journey. See you next week! Dick in St. Louis.
And on it goes. Blessings, Greg, Laurie, Rick, Nailbender et al. When I was a young mother of two, volunteering as the parish secretary and just elected to the vestry, I was asked to be part of the diocesan "Dialogue on Sexuality" by my rector. Lots of meetings, dialogues and panels followed: lots of reading, interviews and impassioned debate. And the more I learned, the more I learned how little I knew. How little I knew about the mysteries of human sexuality, only now being glimpsed in studies beyond the comprehension of our scriptural ancestors. How little I knew about the scriptures themselves and what was actually IN them: how easily we take certain texts literally in order to exclude and oppress women and gay & lesbian people, and ignore others that advocate slavery, slaughter and child abuse. In a way, it was the begining of a part of my spiritual journey that led to seminary, ordination and parish ministry. I remember talking late into the night with a Jr. Hi science teacher who needed more "proof" before he could accept gay and lesbian people as whole: to welcome them into the church. "What if we're wrong," he asked. "What if it's not genetic: not part of God's plan. What if we get to Judgement Day and find out it's a pathology?" In my naivete, I remember responding, "I believe in Judgement Day. And when it comes, I'd rather explain why I missed a question on the biology quiz than why I failed to walk in love ... why I left the stranger at the gate." And 15 years later, I feel the same. What does the Lord require? Do Justice, Love Mercy and Walk Humbly with the God who created me. Like my sister in an earlier posting, I came to understand myself as a lesbian long into my journey: after my ordination and in one of the most profoundly spiritual experinces of my life -- at the National Cathedral in Washington DC!! Coming Out was coming home: and my Lord and Savior was right there, waiting for me. And I was given not a lifestyle, but a life. Don't be afraid of seminary, Rick. Your passion to understand; your fervent desire to serve and your clear commitment to our Lord will only be strengthened by the "refining fire" of the work and the community. Happy Veteran's Day, ya'll. Susan in San Pedro
Greetings;
I'm new to this discussion and a little uncertain of how I might fit in. I hope I wont get too "preachy". I am a minister in two small churches in rural Saskatchewan and have enjoyed lurking in the background of this discussiosn over the past couple of weeks. This week's discussion has moved me to make some comment.
I hesitate to say anything about judgement because I can't see much in this passage that has to do with judgement. I do see it as offering comfort to a group of people who were very frightened by what was going on around them in the form of persecution and threats.
However, since much of the discussion has centred on this idea of judgement I have a couple of of things to offer.
Having worked as a chaplain in medium and maximum security prisons, I note that the threat of judgement and possible punishment do not do much to deter criminal behaviour or encourage "good" behaviour. At the risk of generalizing and simplifying, I have observed a couple of thinking patterns among inmates. Either they believe they will not get caught (and therefore, won't be judged) or they are prepared to face the consequences if they do get caught ("if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"). Fear and threats are not very good motivators.
Nor is the promise of reward. The child who is told that if she is good she will get a piece of cake does not learn the value of being "good", but rather learns the ability of getting what she wants and she also comes to expect that there should be some kind of reward for every time she is good.
The same is true for faith. Fear of judgement, threat of punishment, hope of reward, are not good motivators. They may motivate to some extent, but I'm not sure they encourage faith. I live in faith, not because of what God might do in the future, but because of what God is doing now. God is present in the many blessings in life and in the great tribulations of life (both personal and communal) and for me, that is enough. The future will take care of itself.
IMG
Geoff, Mary, Chris, others, welcome. one thing i enjoy about this place is the chance to think from a different perspective as well as a chance to begin processing my own as I write. i call it my internet lectionary fellowship group.
last night our Biblical storytelling group dealt with this scripture, and here's some of what came out:
Jesus has definitely got this positive thinking thing down - persecutions will bring "opportunities." of course they did just that for Paul near the end of Acts.
Live in the meantime as Art suggested. Relates also to the great commandment where Jesus says, "As you go" Jesus seems to clearly be poutting off those who wish to set a date for the end, saying yes, you'll see this stuff, but the end will be later, and before that...
the important thing is hope. no matter how bad the times get there is hope for those with faith in God because God is going to be there. I imagine that the destruction of the temple had people feeling just like what RevKK described - scared, afraid of the future, uncertain what the future would hold now that their central place of worship and community life was gone - and Jesus says,"Don't be terrified, I'll be there."
one question we had, how does the hairs on the head not perishing fit?
and one more from me, Martin, i vaguely remember seeing part of the movie, "hoosiers." Did the little team win? with Christ we will win.
God bless you all in all our stages of love and growth and acceptance, rachel
Last week the senior warden (head of the internal board of directors) of another parish stopped by. He looks like a banker, and his work is in a line not far removed. Talks like one, too. Talks like a committed Christian. Acts like one, too. As he left he talked over some matters of church polity, including a recent call for some dialogue in the our church regarding human sexuality. A topic i would just as soon sidestep. Still, in the end, he offered to come and assist us with our discussion. It seems he is gay. As he put it, "Would I choose this? Well, there are five or six great benefits: being beaten up at random, losing the love of your parents - at least temporarily, finding the church you've always loved doesn't love you, watching the one you love die an awful death, a young death, etc. No, like it or not, God made me this way"
It seems to me that those churches that condemn homosexuality had best start with the lifestyle that Jesus condemned: divorce. (Of course, that would relegate a big chunk of our congregations and many of us to the "undesirables list". Unless we have unearthed some new papyri, I believe he is still silent on homosexuality.... Otherwise, as a friend of mine recently said, "The Torah classifies gays with lobster newburg. Not a bad class to be in!"
Is it our culture or our scripture that condemns gay/lesbian folk?
HW in HI
I need some help with a thought I'm trying to figure out. :-) What did the destruction of the temple mean to those who were "followers of the Way"? Am I remembering my church history correctly, that this did happen after Christ? And if so, did early Christians still worship in the temple? or still see the temple as a center of religious life? I'm out of info about this... just realized that I had been assuming it would have been a tremendous, disturbing thing for all Jews and Christian converts. As I was thinking about it, I realized that I don't really know. Any light (historical or supposition -- just be sure to clarify for me which you offer) would be very appreciated! Thanks. Enjoying the discussion. God be with you all -- RevAmy
To PW... you said << The cries of American Christians about not being able to enjoy a priveledged place in society (leading prayer in pUblic Schools, Blue Laws, loss of influence in the neighborhood...) -- these cries of persecution are so repugnant to the Word of God when sat next to the plight of the Afgan Christians.
End times? Who knows, but there's more here than just Apocolypse according to Pat Robertson. >> you're my man! Well spoken and on the money.. appreciate the references to our comparing our "sufferings" with others.... here people get upset when they can't have their xmas creche on the courthouse lawn.... tell it to the Mayans widows in our little village in guatemala who have seen their husbands blown to pieces in a UM church just for trying to strat a school.... killed by soldiers led by those trained at the School of the Americas. Our perpective is screwy.... speak about narrow ideas of suffering.
don Hoff elmira, NY
Preacherlady..... you said ,,there is a "hell" if that is what you want to call it -- but I believe it is empty. When each of us comes "face to face" with God, the love and grace of God is so great that finally even the most hard-hearted of us is brought home to God's bosom. I cannot limit the way God works to the limited human plane of reality. THAT is the God I know>> that is a wonderful thought...an empty Hell.... it won't begin to satisfy those of us who have a NEED for a really FULL Hell.... fair is fair... and "who will want to obey God if there's no punishment?" and "if everyone gets in, why i am being so good now.... it's not fair" You state so well that God's sense of fair and justice is different.... way diffrent from ours...... there is Mercy as well! OK preachers...Preaching Mission Impossible.... your assisgnment this week.... if you choose to accept it is to preach about the Mercy of God which is beyond our understanding.... beyond the legalism and works righteousness.... which is the Great Surprise of the Last Days... Thanks Preacherlady.... for a Preacherman
Don Hoff Elmira, NY
Rick- you said << a theology that does not call people out of a lifestyle of sin then we have no business calling anyone out of any sinful lifestyle.>> I'd like to invite you to do something....stop using the term "lifestyle". It may make it easier to speak about and understand what is going on. People speak of a Gay or Lebian lifestyle. I have a number gay and lesbians in my congreation, have always had.... just as every congregation does.... unless we have driven them out. I see lifestyle as a choice, choosing to be a musician, active in sports, smoking dope and listening to Eddy Arnold all day. There isn't a hetrosexual lifestyle anymore than a homosexual lifestyle..... it is not a choice... it is who we are. I am hetrosexual because that is how i was created... it as a gift.... my gay and lesbian friends are created this way... a gift from God....yes painful at times..... don't know a single gay person who decided to stop being hetrosexual and chose a lifestyle of homosexulality. I can't choose to be gay.... i'm just who I have always been. if you can see this as part of nature and that persons don't get up one morning and think it will be fun to be gay... think again. If peope vcan get this.... then they can stop beating up on people and judgeing-judging-judg'n folk. This whole discussion seems to be coming to the forefront because it needs to... the Church is at a crossroads.... will it allow itself to become a place where people are excluded, and the "righteous" stay or the doors are thrown wide open and we hear the voice of Jesus say" Welcome,everybody.. you are my Friends, and i see how yuo love each other as Friends. That just makes me happy no end" Thanks Rick for your contributions.
Don Hoff, elmira Ny donaldhoff@aol.com
If I do not believe in a literal "Judgement Day", I might as well go through the entire Bible and pick and choose those things which are "nice" and "comfortable".Or perhaps, I should go through all of the teachings of Jesus and throw out those things that I find objectionable! Maybe, I should throw them all out! Without all of those things that I choose to find objectionable, my preaching would be just as effective. Maybe, I should just tie a millstone around my neck and throw myself into the deepest part of the sea. Or maybe, I should look again to the scriptures, and pray that God's Holy Spirit will open my heart and mind to the truth, that I might see, that I might understand, and that I might boldly proclaim the Good News og the Gospel and of God's love for me and for all people. Without judgement, what are we saved from? What need is there of a Savior, or for that matter, the Church? What am I preaching Salvation from or too? In order for us to proclaim God's message to God's children, it is imperative that we are honest with all of scripture. Jesus wasn't lying to us about the coming judgement, nor were the prophets of old. The judgement is coming. It affects and effects our lives every day! It is our responsibility to warn, encourage, comfort and enlighten our listeners to the reality of God's Kingdom. Some times, this is a word of judgement! Sometimes this is a word of Gospel! We need to remember that always it is God's word! Greg in WI
Dear Friends, I always think worship goes so much better if some kind of theme is carried through the service, so I especially appreciate it if my choir sings something which ties in with one of the lectionary readings. But wouldn't you know that the choir dir. chose a peppy arrangement of "bringing in the sheaves" for this Sunday. Our small choir is enthusiastic, if not the most talented or gifted, if you know what I mean. Anyway, I began to look at the basis for that text (Psalm 126) and began to wonder if perhaps I could tie this in with the Gospel Lesson. Like the Israelites, we don't know what the future brings, but if we have faith and sow anyway, might we be joyful in what the Lord has done for us in the end? Would someone please let me know if I am totally off base? I'm going to class now, so I'll read your response later this evening. Thanks.
The New Covenant Jesus sealed with his blood is a covenant of LOVE, not of Justice. You know, if the first is to be last and the last first, and the greatest of all is to be servant of all, Think Dante, people. We as pastors and leaders are called not to the most honored seat in the house, but to serve the weakest and most outcast among us and take it as an honor to do so. If this were a scene from the Purgatorio, we would be changing the diapers of those who suffer from AIDS. Without gloves. Skin-touching- skin-of the most untouchable. Following Jesus IS offensive and shocking. Are you up to it?
Powerful stuff, IMG. Thanks. And thank you to all who risk so much to share of yourselves with us.
Preacherlady
God doesn't make mistakes. A Down's Syndrome child is not a mistake -- neither is a person of African-American heritage, or Native American heritage, we have thankfully come to realize -- and people born gay are not mistakes either. Thanks to HW. Well put.
Rev Amy, RE: Destruction of the Temple While I'm digging deep back into first-year seminary stuff, I think I remember the pertinent details. The Temple was where God "was": the holy of holies, the locus of power, the assurance of God's presence and favor towards Israel. Its destruction turned everything they understood about their relationship with God upside down: and yet Judaism emerged out of the rubble of the chaos .. claiming the historical roots of their call as chosen and yet finding a new way to be God's people in a "post-Temple" world. Is that not, in many ways, where we are as a church today? Can we be God's people ... participate in God's dream of the redemption of creation without the "Temple": without a literal approach to scripture; without a vision of Judgement Day which assures us we're "in" and "they" are out? (Thanks for that vision of an empty Hell!) Do we need the threat of eternal damnation to keep us in line or can we respond to God's gift of unconditional love out of gratitude rather than fear? Isn't that how we raise our children: with "consequences" for actions that would harm them until they are old enough to make healthy, moral, ethical decisions on their own? Is it, perhaps, time that we follow that pattern in our churches as well -- take a step toward what I can only regard as spiritual maturity? I ramble. Thanks for providing the forum to do so. Blessings, Don in Elmira. You've touched my heart this morning ... Susan in SanPedro
With all due respect Don, I'll stick with Scripture and not the musings of 60's philosophy.
And 'lifestyle' is too important a word, far too descriptive, to just up and disallow its use.
My heterosexuality does NOT define who I am. Homosexuality does not define who people are. It's something people do. If one's identity is drawn from one's sexual habits, is there any hope for the pedophile and those who like to have sex with animals. What, by the way, stops this descent into oblivion from affirming these behaviors? Will lying, cheating, stealing soon have its advocates? (you know what, we already do)
Since we're now finding out that there may be genetic pre-dispositions to theft, eating fatty foods, and maybe even rape, wouldn't we want to 'love these people as friends' and not judge their behaviors.
I know what my problem is Don, Susan and others. I'm taking things too literally. I'm about to sign off from here and head home for lunch. I think I'll attempt to esoterically read the traffic signs on the way.
"Stop" can't really mean halt now could it? How dare anyone tell me to stop right now, I'm hungry for God's sake and need to get home to eat. Hey, I was born to eat (just check out my midriff). And besides, those people in other cars are all my friends aren't they?
"Yield" can in no way mean to give way. Good Lord, how narrow minded could these traffic engineers have been.
You know folks, I'm going to be honest with you all. I think it's time for a little DPS hiatus for me. Some (not all, thank God) of the theology I'm reading about here is completely frustrating and hopeless. Once we have successfully chipped away at a Scriptural foundation, and some of you are quite the chippers (you know who you are), there is absolutely no hope. Instead it's anything goes.
I'm feeling like I've been transported back a few decades, we're all smoking a doobie, and it's like man, everything's groovy dude (puff), here let me take another hit while we talk about love, man, it's all about free love and freedom to do anything man... Wow nice tee-shirt... revolution man, we need to just toss that old Bible out, dude and write a new one, man, or better yet, just kinda cut that old Bible up cause parts of it is good man...but parts of it (puff, gag, wheeze) it's just too establishment man...
Enough. I'm venting a bit. I'm going to take a DPS break. I'll 'see' you folks in a few weeks or so.
Later...dude!
RIck in Va
I've entitled this sermon: "Closing Time: Doom or Bloom?" My thoughts are to try to use both the Luke text and The Isaiah text and to pit them kind of against each other. What about the "end times?" Can a hopefilled Christian really bye into the idea that a loving God is going to destroy the world? Was Jesus really talking about the end of times, or was he referring to a reality-- that the temple was going to be destroyed (which it was). That the christian community was going to go through a time of persecution (which it did and which it still does). What do we hope for as Christians? It seems to me that Isaiah has some wonderful words fo us here! We hope for peace! And to testify in the "end times" is to testify to a God who will not give up on us or the world, even though it seems like things are falling apart. The early church witness was not just to an end, but to an end in which God was still in control. The good news was that God would still be there! To testify then is to testify to the living hope that God gives us. Sorry about sounding so preachy--first time--would appreciate some thoughts on this. Brook from SD.
Another Newcomer signs in------I am enjoying a multi-faceted discussion of a test from God's Holy Word that seems to "pinch" me in several sensitive spots. I join many of you who are leary of preaching ONLY judgment and not grace. I know my parishoners are feeling "judged" by culture enough. They want the Good News that offers encoragement in times of being judged. That is my intent this Sunday. One more thing I would love some suggestions about from others who preach EVERY Sunday. How do you "keep fresh"? I feel like I am delivering the same sermon in different ways sometimes. Didn't I just not long ago preach about the stamina to endure? I get tired of hearing my voice sometimes Sunday after Sunday! Does any other weekly Preacher struggle with this or am I ....The Lone Ranger Priest in VA?
One more thing.....I saw a great T shirt at a Conference I attended this summer that might tie the Epistle and Gospel lessons for this Sunday.....it said"Jesus is coming.....look busy!" The Lone Ranger Priest in VA
RevAmy's questions lead in a good direction. What does the destruction of the Temple mean for us? Isn't it Brueggemann's point in CADENCES OF HOME that Christianity in today's society most resembles Israel in Exile? The Church has long lost its central place.
Thanks PaideiaSCO for posting your moving mini-sermon. And to Cheryl, N.B'nder, P'lady and others who helped direct my focus to the "endurance by which we gain our souls." The Spirit has stirred up a sermon when all I first saw was ruble.
One phrase still puzzles me. "Not a hair on your head...." Yeah, right! Is Jesus being poetic here? What to say about or to those who've been "scalped" by persecution, war, or natural disaster? I'm reluctant just to skip over this because I suspect there is some powerful truth in these words.
Thanks, too, Bill in SoMD for George MacDonald. How often I wish I had more access to that giant's mind and heart.
And since End Times theories have come up quite a bit this week, I don't want to leave without unreservedly and unashamedly identifying myself as Post-Nasal Trib.
pHil
Hi friends. I'm preaching Isaiah this week, and don't have time to read all the postings here, but want to share an insight from study group that almost convinced me to try preaching this text! Note that Jesus keeps saying, "it's not time yet!" First there will be wars ... but before the wars, there will be persecutions. And the key is: don't be afraid; I'll see you through! All the persecutions and wars are like birth pangs -- false labor. Anybody who's been through a long labor with a false start or two (not me, thank God!) can tell you: just when you're absolutely certain this is it, and start getting all excited, and collect your bags and pile into the car and drop the other kids off at Grandma's and rush to the hospital ...the pains subside and they send you home. Then when you do finally get there, you can still stay in labor for HOURS on end ... longer than anyone could imagine ... and the docs just keep saying, "don't get worried, everything is fine, don't push, just keep breathing ...." I think that's the image Jesus has in mind here. The beautiful new creation of Isaiah 65 is on the way; the labor pains will trick you and upset you and make you turn back and you'll think you're going to die ... but don't worry, I'll see you through to something more magnificent than you can imagine. OK, enough from me. Would love to hear y'all's comments on Isaiah, too. Grace and Peace - Kay
Brook from SD, I think we are on to something here. There our hope is the peace of Isaiah; our reality may be the persecution and trials of Luke. But the promise is God will be with us. There is another Isaiah passage that speaks to the promise of God: Isaiah 43:2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, nor shall the flame scorch you. (NKJV)
The reality is that if we walk in the steps of Jesus, we are going to encounter tough times. Maybe the persecution we suffer here in the US seems small compared to those in Senegal or Nepal, or Tibet, but they are still reminders that we must walk with Christ as our shield and defender if we are keep from being overwhelmed.
There is a young police officer here in Arlington, TX who wishes to where a small gold cross on his lapel. Because he was unwilling to compromise his conviction to wear the cross, he has been fired. I would probably not have made the same decision as this young man, but he is experiencing a type of persecution, and he is having to rely on the Lord.
Many gay/lesbian Christians are feeling persecuted. They have to hold the Lord’s hand in order to not be burned. Other Christians such as Rick in Va. are being ridiculed for holding to their understanding of the scripture – they need to walk with God if they are to experience the peace of God.
Perhaps even more severe are the battles and persecutions we experience everyday in ourselves. The battle to do what is right, and just and holy. The battle to “turn the other cheek,” “to love the sinner, but hate the sin,” to keep our eyes focused on the Lord’s will instead of our own will. If we will grab the Lord’s hand, we can walk through the raging river and the roaring fire right to into the Promised Land and & our God’s loving embrace.
Grace & Shalom, Pastorchris in TX
Lone Ranger in VA, I've only been preaching weekly since I was appointed in June, but here are a couple ways I've heard about staying fresh: 1. Have a study group, even a virtual one like this to provide fresh insight. 2. Go to seminars - even though I'm still in seminary, I plan to attend 4 seminars next year, including Schuller's seminar at the Crystal Cathedral in January. 3. Listen to other people preach. Rick Warren at Saddleback says that helps him more than any other resource outside the Holy Spirit. Subscribe to somebody's tape ministry that you respect. 4. The hardest and best - take time every day just to spend with God & scripture. My goal is 2 hours every day. My reality is 30 -45 minutes 4 days a week. The more intimate time with God, the more humble I am, and the better chance that it is God speaking, not me. I know I'm still a fresh preacher, but my humble prayer is that I'll stay that way with God's help. Grace & Shalom - pastorchris@integrityonline2.com
Rick- this is a forum... where persons like yourself and others can express their opinions, ideas, insight, beliefs. If we do, we open ourselves to discussion, explain, and explore how we came to belief. I've read all the posting, and don't see a single place where anyone has blasted you or others... even they may not hold to your position. If you want a discussion group where other Christians won't challenge you and you can feel totally in line with the theology of others.... I don't know where to find that except the web site www.Horseblinders.com/clsmnd/htm I find your thoughts stimulating, and your question about going to seminary encouraging.... go for it... it will probably shake your faith assumptions for awhile, but if they are worth having they are worth examining. Our congregation is a faith based, Bible believing, God trusting, strenthened by the Spirit Holy church. i don't know what you mean about those who are chipping at the Scripture. Just like you I believe in the Bible..... question is what interpretation do your feel the Spirit Holy will lead you follow? You suggest that others are not following the Bible and are watering down the text and making everything so relative that there are no absolutes. Rick, how do you interpret Scripture that goes against your practice and good sense... such as women should not speak in church, and cover their heads, that we should not wear leather belts, and keep a strict Sabbath.What do you do? An additional comment about Homosexuality.... you said it is <<
My heterosexuality does NOT define who I am. Homosexuality does not define who people are. It's something people do. If one's identity is drawn from one's sexual habits, is there any hope for the pedophile and those who like to have sex with animals.>> Rick, Homosexulality is not what persons do. It is not sexual activity which defines a person as a homosexual. If you are a celebate hetrosexual... who never has sexual activity... aren't you still a hetrosexual? What do you call a homosexual who is a virgin? Do you understand? rick in prison, it is very common for big macho men to take sexual advantage of weaker men..... these macho men are not be considered by anyone to be homosexuals... they are just users and abusers. hope this clarifies the issue. Martin Marty has a good article in Christian Century about the "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument.... most time it turns out to be "hate the sinner, hate the sin... and avoid those who show some Christian compassion and support for them". Thanks for staying in there Rick.... you need this site as it needs you. stay the journey Don Hoff, Elmira, NY
To Rachel,
Yes, the little team wins!
Martin
This is my first posting to this site, so forgive me if I violate any etiquette. As others have pointed out, it is hard to tell how some messages are intended, so let me state that I am trying to write with meekness and love. It sounds like Rick in VA has signed off, which is unfortunate, since his contributions are always passionate and thoughtful, and he is clearly striving for clarity and truth. That doesn't mean I agree with you, Rick (if you're still around).
At one point, you said in response to Betsy in Ohio,
"Are you aware of how smugly confident you're coming across as you wax eloquent...
I'm always amused (and logically perplexed) by those who vilify and denounce the puported condemners. Sounds a bit like a Pharisee to me."
Couldn't that also describe your response? (Come to think of it, it could describe mine, too!)
More to your main point, however, is your plea for the preaching of the full gospel. But does "full gospel" mean taking everything exactly literally? Is my gospel less full if I think God is capable of metaphor? When Jesus speaks of the log in my eye or the pearl of great price, am I watering down the gospel if I say he means something other than tree trunks and oysters? Similarly, I don't see how I am abandoning the gospel if I see something richer and more relevant than a merely literal Judgment Day in Luke 21. A gospel without nuance and image and metaphor and ambiguity does not seem at all full to me, certainly not full enough to lead through the complexities of the world to salvation.
I wish you the truth you seek.
Oops, what a newbie, I forgot to sign.
Steve in OK
To All: I'm posting something for the first time having lurked around this site like a parasite. The congregation I serve has benefited from your wonderful insights and scholarship. No matter what anyone has to say about the cyberworld, the very existance of a forum like this blesses the whole net.
It is so easy to interpret the scriptures through whatever personal glasses we happen to be wearing. Just look at how Jesus' close friends and followers misconstrued His word - how can we do better?
It seems that the Holy Spirit must be "computer literate" as God is using this site as an opportunity for us to clarify our thoughts about the truth which has been entrusted to us. We minister to each other, smearing the mud that Jesus made on each others glasses and in each others hearing aids so that we take them off and experience the naked truth that Jesus gives us.
To RevAmy: By the time that Luke penned his gospel the destuction of Herod's temple was al- ready a fact. Non-Christian Jews blamed Christian Jews for the loss of the center of Jewish worship and for the diaspora that followed. The blessing that came from this is that Christianity emerged as an obscur Jewish sect to become a World wide religion preached to all. The down side is that to this day, at least in Orthodox synagogues, Jewish worship begins with a condemnation of Christians - not Christ but Christians whom they blame for their loss.
To Rick: I don't think you can stay away! It's my prayer and hope that we hear your "voice" sooner rather then later. 'Fess up brother - You LOVE this bunch. Deke in the heart of Texas
I most appreciate the great sermon illustrations some of you provide and I hope others don't scroll by them too fast. Thank you, Alane in 4 corners (1st comment under Isaiah 65) and RevKK for the "Meantime" (above). Anne of Providence
rev. Amy, Take a look in a bible dictionary under temple. Jesus died about 30 AD, the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed in 67. It was incredibly devastating. The early Christians were Jewish Christians. Jesus was Jewish after all. They worshipped in the temple and preached in the synagogues.
One of the things I appreciate about this site is the diversity of viewpoint. On any given week, I can have great conversation with folks from all over the geographical/denominational/theological landscape. It's a wonderful to be able to do that from my small isolated rural community. So I appreciate all of you for contributing and being who you are (that includes you Laurie, Rick, and Greg). Larry cny.
To all who have come: welcome!
To Cheryl, Geoff, Mary, Min, HAWK, pastorchris, Dick, IMG, Lone Ranger, Steve, Deke & anyone I've missed - it is great to have you here!
I find the diverity to be wonderful fodder for my brain, my sermons, my spirituality. I thank you for those with whom I agree, disagree and can't figure out. You bless my life daily.
Rick, my friend, you can choose a nice safe seminary where everybody thinks just like you and surround yourself with people who agree with you: same theology, same preferences, etc. Is that serving God or self? You are bigger than that. I want to ask you to consider that being in dialogue with committed Christians with whom you disagree may be frustrating, aggravating, anxiety producing, but also eye-opening, ear popping, sometimes even log-removing. It is for me. Why go? God is here, your friends are here, and rag-tag bunch tho we are, we'll walk with you. Walk with us!
Aloha, HW in HI
To all of you (including Rick and Greg, whom I disagree with most of the time), Thanks, for your vulnerability, your honesty, your sharing. I'm a new pastor (my first anniversay is beginning of Advent). I'm lucky in my congregation, for they are honest and sharing and happy sof ar at least, to have me as pastor (which I don't understand very well, but am grateful). But this is a lonely job (hi to the Lone Ranger...) And when I do "fellowship" it is mostly with folks like me, with my "sound" and my theology. But this past week, I found that I did get mad at some folks (I wrote my sermon this week in a hot fit of temper after reading some of the "judgment" postings early in the week. ) However, I realized how much I need and depend on all of you, to challenge my thinking, to get me going in different directions, and to simply think about what it is that I do each week from the pulpit. If my angry comments hurt anyone I apologize. But it has been a fruitful and fertile time of living with this challenging scripture. The most difficult question I live with as I prepare to preach each week remains: "How do we understand, live and preach the Word of God?" And it is a living, breathing God who continues to challenge me in that constant task. (A little more patience and humility on my part is probably in order...) But again thanks. Greg and Rick... don't give up on us. We are struggling too. Some of us have had different experieces than you. But we are all of the kingdom. shalom gail
Rick in VA I just have to say that I felt persecuted when reading your post--so much so that it makes me not want to ever come back to this site. I am so sick & tired of being told in the name of "Christian love" (i.e. "hate") that my lifestyle is wrong and sinful even though my relationship with my partner is as wholesome and loving (and non-promiscuous) as any heterosexual couple I know, if not moreso. People saying they speak for "the church" have no right to judge as you have done--that's God's job!
Sorry I come across as angry, but I am! I was hoping this would be a safe place, and appraciate that those such as Greg from Nashville are here but I, for one, can find plenty of persecution elsewhere.
Laurie in CA
I am confused. I am new to this forum. I have read the Bible many times over and it consistently condemns homosexuality. God condemns murder--do some of you mean to tell me that someone can say that I did not want to do it, look at what it got me: my family hates me, the church does not love me anymore, I am a downcast in society. But I can't help it--I was born this way! I'm sorry, God does not have people born specifically to "that" kind of sinful life that is condemned! I feel sorry that there are churches out there that are getting the watered down theology. Yes, we had better be sure that Jesus is watching us. God did not say, "It is not good that man is alone, let us make him another man to be with!" NEVER and I mean NEVER in the Bible is it said that people will be born homosexuals. EVERYTIME it does say that homosexuality is a SIN!!! Just because one says that their "love" is just as good as a heterosexuals love is, does not make it right. Some people really "love" their money, some people really "love" to gamble, it goes on and on. I am a sinner it is true. But I know enough not to dilute the scriptures to meet "MY" needs! We should encourage those in the homosexual lifestyles to keep fighting the good fight up to the end. We should be with them, reading the scriptures and opening the doors to let the "LIGHT" in! I try to "love" all people just as we are commanded to do. I have no hatred for misguided people, I have no hatred for sinners, I have no hatred for those who misinterpret the scriptures (I am sure I am guilty of that myself!). My only recourse is to say that I am praying for all sinners till the day of His coming! May God bless you all. I enjoy reading the responses. BC in TX
PERSECUTION: The UM Council of Bishops met a week or so ago, and their stories are starting to surface. In Burundi (Africa), retired Bp. Lawson was sent just to hang out with the Bishop there to provide a measure of protection -- as long as an American bishop was with him, the army wouldn't kill the native bishop. The two of them ate at a loca restaurant. After they left,the army killed all those who had served them in any way, then called to say that they had done so. The army is systemically killing United Methodist pastors (because they are educated). After a pastor is killed and a lay person takes leadership in the church, they target that lay person.
The African Bishops are saying: the American presence on their continent is known not by food or other aid, but by the guns that are killing their people. Children are digging for scraps of food next to chickens in the dumps; their parents have been killed in the wars. The little bit that I've heard is only the tip of the iceberg. UM pastors, ask your Bishop what they learned at the council meeting.
Kyrie eleison.
Kay (p.s. if you see some of this info posted later, it's because I'm assuming most of you won't see it this late in the week, and it seems very important for us to know about.)
If you can weed out out all the Conservative/Liberal dog fighting there is actually some good stuff in here. After seeing everyone in here obsess about judgement, I've changed my focus to "Persecution". The link that "KenTucky" provided to the persecuted church homepage was good. In light of the information at that sight I realized most of my examples of persecution were smaltzy at best and offensive at worst. Pastorchris in TX, I thought your comment about the most severe struggle being an internal one might be offensive to someone whose been physically tortured or had family killed for being a Christian. (That's an observation, not a personal attack on your theology...)
BS in NC
BC in Texas- << I have no hatred for misguided people, I have no hatred for sinners, I have no hatred for those who misinterpret the scriptures (I am sure I am guilty of that myself!). My only recourse is to say that I am praying for all sinners till the day of His coming! May God bless you all. I enjoy reading the responses.>> When i read your note.... I don't hear someone who has read a variety of Bible commentaries, and the issue of homosexuality from the Christian perspective..... I hear alot of very hard judgment , anger and almost hatred. It doesn't sound like it has love or compassion.... but heavy condemnation. i have ask myself "why?". Sometimes the person is fighting an inner fear, question of sexual identity, sometimes this issue encapsules all that's wrong with the Church giving into the world values.... what i really hear is that this person doesn't have any healthy realtionships with gay and lesbian and such persons are viewed as being "them-out there" like aliens. My question to BC and Rick is this:"Why are you picking on, paying so much attention to the gay and lesbians issue?" when you speak about scripture which ALWAYS condemns homosexulality..... do you also condem drunkeness, gossip, lack of charity, vilification, pride and greed which appear in many of the passges you are reading? Do you have the same level of hostility for those acts, do you just reserve that condemnation for persons whom you percieve as outcasts ands scapegoats? I don't need to apoligize to our gay and lesbians brothers and sisters in the pulpit or in the pew. Let me say that there are MANY who do not condem you, in indeed treasure the devotion and faith which keeps you on the journey. Many of us have brothers and sisters, daughters and sons, pastors and friends who are homosexual.... and we are richer for it. I'm happy to have you as co-pastors. Don't allow careless and un-Christlike talk ever turn you aside or wear you down.... you are not lepers or outcasts....you are Friends of Jesus.... and it doesn't get any better than that. Don Hoff elmira, NY donaldhoff@aol.com
Don, Thank you for your posting. I am frustrated that these postings so often turn from the scripture and back to the debate of who is worthy to be here simply by virtue of which sex they are attracted to. Can we please embrace each other and listen to sermon ideas. Is that not what we're here for? There is a forum and a chat room for other debates.
You may say that the debate is very much in keeping with the scripture. That to talk about judgement is what it's all about. But I can't believe that it does any of us any good to judge each other. Just talk about the scripture, please. Talk about how God gives hope and how Christ can transform YOUR life...not so and so in the previous posting.
Because of this week's discussion, we may have lost two or three wonderful contributors. What a shame. I've been there myself. Can't stand yet one more place where people hurt before they heal, condemn before they listen, and attack before they embrace. I get enough of that with my own congregation. I too, keep assuming, hoping, and wishing this would be a safe place...a dialogue between coleagues who respect and care for one another.
I still have hope that it will happen.
Thanks for listening, Cameron
I don't beleive it was our friend in Va or BC in Texas who first brought up the topic of sexuality Don so please don't point a finger outward when 3 may be pointing back at you. Niether do we see a drunkard movement or Parents and Friends of Drunkards organization or I am greedy and i am proud buttons. The Bible is clear on what is sinful and sex with someone of the same gender qualifies. The real hatred or judgment seems to be aimed at those who read their Bibles and believe what it says to them.
Carlos
Greetings! I keep thinking about this text in relation to last week's text. Last week Jesus answered the Saducees by saying that the resurrection will be different from anything we know now. In Christ we are a new creation. In the resurrection we will be a different being somehow. I wonder if Jesus isn't also hinting that the "end" will also be a bit different from what we expect or fear. And since it is unkowable to us in some ways, and since the date and time are not even known to the Son, what we have to do in the meantime is be ready. In the meantime, every act of cruelty or injustice or suffering is our chance to testify to the goodness of God. It's our chance to proclaim that this suffering is not part of God's will. And in standing up to the bullies, we gain our souls... When we do like Jesus did, even if it be the cross that awaits us, we say that hatred and cruelty will never ultimately win. That the day Second Isaiah's talking about this week will come. That God wins! Yes, hell may be empty - it just might be empty... But, it's gonna get worse around here before it gets better, that's for sure! In the "meantime" :) we need to hang on to the dream. I may just read from MLK even though it's not January...
It seems that the conversation has gotten all out of hand here, because people wanted to talk about the ethics of gay Christians. Those discussions are important, but are probably better suited somewhere else. I've had to scroll through endless lines of sharp disagreements to find something that relates to the text.
I'm going to preach on "being ready". The future judgement is beyond anybody's conception or control. Even the unthinkable will happen with the destruction of the temple, the Diaspora, the betrayal that will come from one's one family and friends. Jesus is steering the disciples (one of them a betrayer!) into more practical, more useful ways of thinking. Number one, he says that being his follower will lead to persecution. They therefore should not be surprised when it happens. Jesus already knows that the shadow of evil and death is already upon him, and in fact is walking alongside him. To exegete this, I like to think that evil is cunning, concealed, mysterious, and will strike unexpectedly at God's children. We live in a dangerous world, where we can really take nothing for granted. I think Jesus wanted to prepare the disciples so they would not be overcome in that moment of crisis.
The second thing Jesus wanted to tell them was to be ready. It wasn't a case of "if" they would be persecuted, it was a case of "when". What would they do, what would they say, how would they act? Those whose faith is that "one day at a time" will persevere. Jesus had already taught that the faithful people of God live fully in each day, and trust God for tomorrow, whatever tomorrow may bring ("consider the lillies of the field"). And because they live one day at a time, they certainly would be able to face whatever came their way.
How to communicate this to smug, secure, American Christians raises many questions. They don't see the urgency. They don't see persecution, at least obvious persecution. I'm going to use the title "Just In Case...", and tie what I taught at last month's potluck about preparing for the Y2K problem. All the precautions we are to take, like having extra food, water, and cash are things that we all should have stored up in case of fire, flood, or earthquake. I'll bring in the parable of the wise and foolish maidens here. The wise maidens were prepared for the wedding feast, the foolish were not, and missed out. You can be sure that living one day at a time also includes making obvious plans for the uncertain future. I hope I will not be found wanting on that hour of trial, when I can face that time unafraid, because I was emotionally, spiritually and physically prepared for it. Conclusion: Don't worry about the things that are beyond your control, focus instead on things that are within your control. One day at a time, with "leftovers" for tomorrow. By the way, is your "Last Will and Testament" ready? Don't wait for manana. Do it today.
Any other thoughts?
Alan in Port Orchard
Alan, Thanks for your comment. It help me to get the focus I need to get this homily done. I too am concerned about the amount of space taken up by the subject of the sexuality of Christians, but I don't know of a better place for it to happen. If we who are serving in positions of ministry and leadership can't deal with these issues then we've got a long way to go as the Christians we look like.
I've been visiting this site for less then two months now and from the first I was amazed at the sense of community that comes through the words that flash up on my screen. I found myself caught up in the various threads of heartfelt discussion as one and another found relief in being able to bear their souls to what is possibly the only people that they could trust.
Years ago there was a Rod Sterling show called "Night Gallery." I don't remember many of the shows but in the spirit of "The Twilight Zone," the subject matter was not always pleasant. One episode has stayed with me 20+ years - it was called "The Sin Eater." To this day it makes my skin crawl!
In this time or place people had a custom where food was placed on the laid out corpse and a professional "sin eater" would be called. He would eat the food and as he did so they believed that he was consuming the sins of the dead person, making him ready for the afterlife. A famine was in the land and someone died - they came to the sin eater's house and requested his service. His wife said he'd be along later. The sin eater had a nearly grown son and he himself was very ill. The mother told the son to go and pretend to eat the food and the sins so that they would have something to eat. Reluctantly he agreed because they were starving.
When he got back the mother said how good it was that they had this food and she would set the table. Later she called him in to eat. There on the table was the food and to his horror it was laid out on his father's corpse. He knew what his mother intended, he was to eat the sins of the sin eater.
A terrible story but one that is, in a sense, ours. We hear the woes and the tribulations of so many people and are expected to always listen with a charitable and Christian heart. Sure, that's what we chose to do when we answered the call, but who is there for us. We tend to be isolated by miles and lack of time to come together to offer each other comfort - so we have this forum - thanks be to God! And we know better then the sin eater - we just pass that all onto Jesus whom we sometimes find in each other. Pax et caritas dear brothers and sisters - Deke in Tx
Alan, Thanks for your comment. It help me to get the focus I need to get this homily done. I too am concerned about the amount of space taken up by the subject of the sexuality of Christians, but I don't know of a better place for it to happen. If we who are serving in positions of ministry and leadership can't deal with these issues then we've got a long way to go as the Christians we look like.
I've been visiting this site for less then two months now and from the first I was amazed at the sense of community that comes through the words that flash up on my screen. I found myself caught up in the various threads of heartfelt discussion as one and another found relief in being able to bear their souls to what is possibly the only people that they could trust.
Years ago there was a Rod Sterling show called "Night Gallery." I don't remember many of the shows but in the spirit of "The Twilight Zone," the subject matter was not always pleasant. One episode has stayed with me 20+ years - it was called "The Sin Eater." To this day it makes my skin crawl!
In this time or place people had a custom where food was placed on the laid out corpse and a professional "sin eater" would be called. He would eat the food and as he did so they believed that he was consuming the sins of the dead person, making him ready for the afterlife. A famine was in the land and someone died - they came to the sin eater's house and requested his service. His wife said he'd be along later. The sin eater had a nearly grown son and he himself was very ill. The mother told the son to go and pretend to eat the food and the sins so that they would have something to eat. Reluctantly he agreed because they were starving.
When he got back the mother said how good it was that they had this food and she would set the table. Later she called him in to eat. There on the table was the food and to his horror it was laid out on his father's corpse. He knew what his mother intended, he was to eat the sins of the sin eater.
A terrible story but one that is, in a sense, ours. We hear the woes and the tribulations of so many people and are expected to always listen with a charitable and Christian heart. Sure, that's what we chose to do when we answered the call, but who is there for us. We tend to be isolated by miles and lack of time to come together to offer each other comfort - so we have this forum - thanks be to God! And we know better then the sin eater - we just pass that all onto Jesus whom we sometimes find in each other. Pax et caritas dear brothers and sisters - Deke in Tx
Alan and Carlos- thanks for reminding us that we have a text to deal with..... of course it is important for us to get back to the text for the week.... i have found the insights, illustrations, questions and observations to be stimulating. Let's return to the text. Jesus speaks about how life will be difficult, there will be persons betrayed by their family and supposed friends.... it will lead to death... and so it did for all the apostles... except John who history tells us lived to a ripe age of 100+ In the end... and that is a key line isn't it?.... "by your endurance you will gain your soul".. it will be by bearing with the persecution, in the face of hardship. Some of this persecution in the primitive Church came from within the community... from persons who were distracted, deluded and confused. They took to the Faith, but then allowed the darkness within to lead to betrayal. sometimes we spend alot of our time looking for the persecuting forces in the faces of "them-out there".... the wild eyed afganistans, fanatical muslims, bones in the nose tribes in Brazilian jungles, a Billion Chinese, or Commies... wait they are gone... except for Brother Fidel. If you carefully read the contributions of other pastors on this site... you will discover that there is much persecution within the walls of the Church. Now you can say that that is a tangient, off the meaning of this text... an aside for people who are just pushing their own agenda... people who are just turning this preaching resource site into a narrow discussion... and there are people who are getting upset and leaving!!!! I see the discussion of persecution being pretty broad... and covers all the places mentioned above.... but if it doesn't deal with what is happening inside the Mother Church... within the family.... then what is the preaching for? Who are we preaching to? If you are not aware that 1 in 9 members sitting in your pews has a relative who is gay/lesbian... then you are not in touch reality. Some of these g/l persons have been excluded from their houses and congreations...treated as dead... by Church members... there is a lot of hurt, confusion, disappointment to deal with. I have had 2 young gay men, beloved and raised in the congregation die of AIDS. Those 2 deaths did more to bring our members to great compassion... than all the references... to the holy sites in Israel or the Last Days... end of the world preaching. Those of you who have spoken about not pre judging the congreation... are right on the money. So often I have found that the People of God out in the pew are out ahead of the pastors on compassion, social implications of the Gospel, the hospitality of the Church. Pastors often seem to be actually frightened of their people.... intimidated to preach what the Spirit Holy is nudging them to say. Do the people a real favor.... preach where they tell you they are hurting (some day actually greet them one by one before the service and ask them individually "Welcome. What do you need today?" Their answers will astound you....don't go back to historical fall of the Temple... don't go to afganistan, Iraq...... go to St.John's By-The-Gas-Station.... and preach the Gospel of hope, encourage them that they can endure all those hardships. That is what this text is about isn't it? stay the journey Don Hoff
Deke in Tx - what a remarkable story about the sin-eater....I watched so much of Rod S., but forgot that one. Rod Sterling was from this part of NYS... and he was a powerful teller of important stories...
Thank you for sharing that.
Did i forget to thank you all(even those who differ in their views) for enriching my spiritual life, and my preaching? Sometimes with a single line, sometimes a story, a pithy observation, a reference... willingness to step out there and risk a comment (how often we read someone say"I've been sitting here wondering if i should say something...") Just so that you know... there are a number of laity who read this DPS, and what we say and discuss adds to their understanding of Spiritual life. It is great medium isn't it? As in any Christian community... it lives by it's compassion and respect for each other. The non Christians, and former Christians also read on this site, and gain an idea of what Friends of Jesus talk about.
stay the journey
Don Hoff
"This will give you an opportunity to testify... So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; for I will give you words and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict."
What are we to testify to: the letter of the law or the redemptive love of Christ Jesus? There's the good news, brothers and sisters. And for all the energy we've spent this week judging each other and honing our arguments, may God give us the grace to testify from our pulpits so they WILL know we are Christians by our love. We'll be singing "In Christ there is no east or west" and many of us will be adding black or white, gay or straight, male or female. That's the kingdom: soon may it come! I'm putting the sermon to bed and going out to enjoy this beautiful autumn day. Blessings, Susan in SanPedro
OK, this is Saturday, and I'm still trying to get my sermon finished. So, call me desparate. But as I read all the postings -- odd how we went from talking about judgment to actually judging one another -- I keep getting a picture of those stones falling. A beautiful temple contstructed to "hold God." And don't we have our own temples? If we read the context of our pericope we remember that Jesus had recently entered Jerusalem, moving toward his own death. He went to the temple and "cleansed it." He wept over Jerusalem and its impending fate. He marvels over the faith of a poor widow. And now, as the disciples marvel over the opulance of the temple, he says -- this too, will fall. "OMIGOD, he must mean its THE END!" They think. So we, too, look at our own temples...and see that some of the stones are tottering. Homosexuals in the church? OMIGOD, it must be the END. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Everything we have built our life and belief systems upon are being threatened. Family structures, social structures, government structures, and church structures. And Jesus looks at it casually and says, the only thing that you can build on is me. The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone (20:17) So why do I have to figure out whether or not homosexualtiy is "okay" -- my business is to love and accept, just like God does. And God does.) It's interesting to me that this scripture brought out all these smokescreen issues. God love us. (And God does.) RevKKinOK
The homosexual issue is truly an issue of inclusiveness within the body of Christ. We cannot say we accept all, or that we love all, if we don't find a place for our brothers and sisters who are lesbian and gay. But this debate does not belong on the Lectionary Page. It belongs at the discussion site. The Gospel transcends these issues and through that transcendence speaks to them directly in a larger scope. Is it possible for us to us, who feel this or something else to be an issue, simply come on online and say. I need to discuss this ... see you at the discussion site. Or chat line. Please free this space for issues of homiletics and commentary. Gracias.
Tom in GA
Friends,
I so value the heart-felt and holy thoughts of each of you. My prayer for DPS and for the church is that we can learn to live together in Christ, even when and maybe especially when, we adamantly disagree. It seems that there are several issues before us in our time that could again divide the church. What are we to do when we find dedicated Disciples of Christ at odds over specific issues, points of view, or Biblical understandings? (Church history is full of our many end-of-the-church if you don't see it my way disagreements.) Why would God allow such dissention to be the constant companion of the church?
Maybe learning to share, talk, and live faithfully through our disagreements is one of the most important things we can model for our world. Will they know us, will they know Christ through us, unless we first truly learn to love and uphold one another in Christ?
Our readings for the week look to the future, the future of the disciples and the church then, the future of the church and present day disciples now, and to a future time when this world shall pass away as we know it. Isaiah shares the vision of a new day and a new heaven and earth. 2 Thess. reminds us that we are to be steadfast in our vocation. Luke reminds us to have faith in the certainty that we are living in the realm of God's love and protection.
I believe the future holds a Day of Judgment. But, thank God, it will be God who does the judging and not us. We are called to spread the Good News, to cast our nets. We are not called to decide who will be embraced in the nets. That is not our call. (Thanks, be to God!)
The really Good News is that we know the "end" already. The victory has already been won. In the end stands Christ as Lord and Savior.
In the meantime, we who now see in a mirror only dimly, (and live through the fussing and fighting that our "dim" view causes) can rejoice in the knowledge that, on that future day, all that separates us from God and each other, will be things of the past.
Grace and Peace,
Rich in NC
Well said Rich---
<<I believe the future holds a Day of Judgment. But, thank God, it will be God who does the judging and not us. We are called to spread the Good News, to cast our nets. We are not called to decide who will be embraced in the nets. That is not our call. (Thanks, be to God!) >>
Reading an rereading the text leads me to see that jesus is calli gour attention to the beautiful Temple advises us not "to be led astray",,, and "not to be terrified". I invite you to consider that our discussions this week have not been far off the mark. i pity those of us who come here Desparate for a "quickie" or hungry only for a snappy illustration or joke... have you noticed that there are not many jokes this week friends.... Seeing that we are not going to get something easy for tomorrow.... like 3 points, a joke, and a poem... maybe we learn from this week's text that Jesus assumes we are going to be led astray (placing too much trust in our "beautiful" sanctuaries and lawns..... placing too much money inside our temples and not being in touch with the hurting world outside the walls) Try preaching that we give the first 10% of offerings of those inside, to those needy folk outside... see if you get persecuted?
Jesus knew that we would be terrified.... his constant words of confort,,, strength and support. Did i mention that the Bible has 365 references which say "Be not afraid"... this is one of them.... warning, warning- is that most times a "Do not be afraid " is mentioned..... God comes back and asks us to do something. Are you ready?
You are going to be pushed up against the wall by a situation and given a chance to witness for the Lord... and you won't even need to read DPS to prepare what you're going to say nor your answers.... the Spirit Holy will nudge us to say what needs to be said...... WOW hear that? does that mean that we don't have to study the Scripture anymore... but just walk to that pulpit and speak? We all need to take our Bible study seriously and not just se it as a resource book, or a Paper Pope.
I love how Brother Jesus leads us to that last line... as Friends of Jesus we'll hurt a whole lot, but our "endurance" maintain our soul. What a promise! Those celebration words! You can all rejoice in that!!! We don't have to worry about Success or Failure... just hanging in there with the Lord..... stay the journey
Don Hoff, elmira, NY Donaldhoff@aol.com
Did anyone notice that there wasn't one mention of the g/l words in that last piece?
Yeh....but we'll be saving it up to use next week for Luke 23:33-43....the crucifixtion..... O MY... bet we can find an application for a future text..... since it is core and not an accessory.
Perhaps we should end each Sat with an individual prayer remembering all whom we have worked with here this week, and for all of our faithful preaching on the morrow. Don Hoff
I know this may be late, but wanted to give an insight that I gained today. The Church (and its individual members)is to ENDURE in this passage and in the Epistle Paul tells them that those that do not work should not be fed.
I am taking this from the view point that if you have been around long enough to be amember that you have no right to complain that you are spiritually malnurished - pick up the fork and feed yourself. Also, I am going to talk about the issues that seem to divide people - in particular those that have seemed so unwelcome in other places (for whatever reason - from lack of social skills to race). And how they need to learn to endure the tests that come their way in the form of new ideas and thoughts and how those are not attacks as often as they think they are.
In Christ, Greg in Nashville
Begging some people's pardons BUT:
I didn't read anything in the text about homosexuality. It may just be me, but my translation of Luke didn't bring it up. If yours did I'd love to see the original manuscripts. Written on the backside of a "Promise Keepers" bar napkin?
On homosexuality, since this is such a hot topic: 1) As I was walking around my neighborhood tonight, greeting a couple Korean families in the church, and just peeking around I didn't notice any overt displays of homosexuals persecuting the hetrosexual majority. As a matter of fact, the issues of racism, economic justice, and general intollerance seemed more applicable to the problems our congregation is enjoying. Homosexuals simply are not the root of any of our struggles. As I scan Philadelphia I can see more clearly that -again- homosexuality is not the root cause of ANY of the city's problems. As a matter of fact, homosexuality, homosexuals, and the "homosexual lifestyle" are not factors in any of the social ills facing Philly. I won't try to speak of other places, but Philly is just not beseiged by "Gay Power" dominating the scene. So my question is: Since I keep seeing so much anti-homosexuality "preaching", as my denomination joins with otehrs in making this a Front-Page issue (that is being against Gays), and I see so much on our discussion page about Gays I have to ask - Where did they get all this power? How did a couple of women kissing in public turn over the tables in the temples? As you preach the Good News you should try focusing on the needs of your people. Do you really think the amount of Anti-Gay sermons, leaflets, and material is proportional to the number of gays in your given congregation. Personally, if I were Gay I wouldn't sit through even half of your "Hate the sinlove the sinner" speech.
2) On the otherhand, the claims of homosexuals as tehy struggle for social, political, legal, and religious dignity are based largely on anti-Gay stereotyping, Gay-bashing, and scapgoating. I support the Gay/Lesbian coalitions, movements, etc. as tehy struggle for acceptance, recognition, and respect. I'll echo someone else's comment: God don't make no junk. If God blessed the homosexual when THE LORD created him/her then we might just want to try it ourself. PW in PA
Begging some people's pardons BUT:
I didn't read anything in the text about homosexuality. It may just be me, but my translation of Luke didn't bring it up. If yours did I'd love to see the original manuscripts. Written on the backside of a "Promise Keepers" bar napkin?
On homosexuality, since this is such a hot topic: 1) As I was walking around my neighborhood tonight, greeting a couple Korean families in the church, and just peeking around I didn't notice any overt displays of homosexuals persecuting the hetrosexual majority. As a matter of fact, the issues of racism, economic justice, and general intollerance seemed more applicable to the problems our congregation is enjoying. Homosexuals simply are not the root of any of our struggles. As I scan Philadelphia I can see more clearly that -again- homosexuality is not the root cause of ANY of the city's problems. As a matter of fact, homosexuality, homosexuals, and the "homosexual lifestyle" are not factors in any of the social ills facing Philly. I won't try to speak of other places, but Philly is just not beseiged by "Gay Power" dominating the scene. So my question is: Since I keep seeing so much anti-homosexuality "preaching", as my denomination joins with otehrs in making this a Front-Page issue (that is being against Gays), and I see so much on our discussion page about Gays I have to ask - Where did they get all this power? How did a couple of women kissing in public turn over the tables in the temples? As you preach the Good News you should try focusing on the needs of your people. Do you really think the amount of Anti-Gay sermons, leaflets, and material is proportional to the number of gays in your given congregation. Personally, if I were Gay I wouldn't sit through even half of your "Hate the sinlove the sinner" speech.
2) On the otherhand, the claims of homosexuals as tehy struggle for social, political, legal, and religious dignity are based largely on anti-Gay stereotyping, Gay-bashing, and scapgoating. I support the Gay/Lesbian coalitions, movements, etc. as tehy struggle for acceptance, recognition, and respect. I'll echo someone else's comment: God don't make no junk. If God blessed the homosexual when THE LORD created him/her then we might just want to try it ourself. PW in PA
haven't had time to read all the contributions yet -looks briefly like another battle. i am definitely desperate this week. Please God, help. I kept thinking of the movie, It takes two" where the junk yard kids tease the little girl because she says she is really this rich child, give her a toilet plunger as a scepter, commode as a throne, and then the helicopter which traces her down swoops dowm and gets her.
the other thought is that we are victros - champions - as inheritors in Christ, the king. are we living as victors or victims? thanks to all on the history and all - didn't know it, and just happen to be having 2 baptisms this day, and we have communion every week - need to be drawn back frequently.
blessings to whoever still reads this late, rachel