Whoa!! This text difficult in light of recent events. My 16-year-old son, after church today, asked me if there was any religion that didn't make absolute salvation claims. Somehow he linked that to the concept of hell. He asked if there was a religion which didn't believe in hell and believes that good people of any religion could get into heaven. He said he would like to explore such a religion. Pretty heavy duty stuff. Is the concept of hell something to be revised?
I guess I'll go first... I'd be interested in finding out what some of you think: did Jesus deliberately frame this parable into a context of the "haves" and the "have-nots?" Or is this just an incidental story ornament?
Not incidental at all. Even in Hell, the rich man expects poor Lazarus to come and wait on him, or run errands for his family. He is looking down on Lazarus, even while looking up from Hell to Heaven.
Even though we gave $132 million to Afghanistan last year, could the U.S. be the rich man and poor countries such as Afghanistan the Lazarus at the gate? They have only two weeks of food left and our farmers have trouble selling their crops. PH in OH
Folks, let's remember that it's not money that is evil, or having it, it's loving it... there are numerous examples of rich people being used by God for good and decent purposes. Let's not do that typically text-book, progressively predicable and soundly un-biblical pounding of the rich here without acknowledging that it is the love of money that is the root of evil, not money itself. Rick in Va
23.9.01 I take your point Rick, but it's not a question of giving the rich a hard time. Jesus had a special concern for the poor and oppressed and that means so should we. In comparison with those with only 2 weeks food left in Afghanistan we are very rich. This raises questions for us about the kind of use we make of the riches we have.To those to whom much is give, much will be required. Linda
Just a random thought. Should we be careful not to feed crumbs of the gospel to the poor and reserve our best worship efforts for the rich? Thinking about those who really are uncomfortable with our services not our Jesus. Nancy-WI
Today I saw a woman in Afghanistan grinding up moldy bread (meant to feed animals) to make a meal she could feed her children. We are now prepared to spend many billions of dollars attacking every possible cause of the Trade Towers war. What about hunger, disease and racism? And so we like the Rich Man cry out in our hell to the Muslim world (Lazarus?) give us Bin Laden and his henchmen (cup of water?) to slake our blood lust. What warning could have been given to us? Did we not have the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5), The parable of the judgment of the nations (Matt. 25)delivered to us by one who is raised? Some opening thoughts. cwe in IL
I have an all-age service this Sunday and intend to use this text along with the epistle reading. Has anyone got any resources or ideas to get me started this week? I will be forever indebted to you...A Canadian in Scotland.
It would seem to me that a Christological, salvific perspective would have us emphasize our need for a Redeemer and Savior, our need to deal with sin. And yes, it would apply to those in Afghanistan. I don't think poverty, hunger and disease fueled the terror attacks. I believe that one can effectively make the case that the worshipping of a false God (certainly sinful), with all the consequences and ramifications of the same, is at the root of September 11th's terror.
In Matthew 26, Jesus tells us that the poor will always be with us, and that the proper focus must be on Him. The gospel of Jesus Christ, when preached to the world, should make note, according to Jesus own words, of the story of she who "wasted" expensive perfume to anoint Jesus. That perfume could have been sold to help a number of poor people but what was the proper focus? Jesus, His death and subsequent resurrection, and their meaning, are to be the focus of God's people and especially His shepherds.
But that's problematic isn't it, especially in this pluriform main-line church? Who really believes that Christ is the unique Redeemer and Savior of the world? Not many here. He is one of a number of Saviors right? I mean, who are we, to be so exclusive, so narrow-minded, as to believe in the One true God, and His only Son Jesus Christ and the need to make Him known to a dying world? No, that's too right wing-ish, too conservative. Let's continue with the un-Biblical notion that there are many truths and many paths to God, and let's continue with the un-Biblical idea that if we'd only solve hunger and poverty, then we'd do away with evil. Yes, let's do that... but then also prepare for more of the same.
We cannot say that we believe in the authority of Scripture, the idea of revealed truth, and ignore so much of it. And that's what the church has been doing... we need to repent, we need to confess that we worship other gods, and we need to admit that it is Christ who we need and who a dying world needs. Everything else is rubbish. Will we repent? Will we submit? Lord, have mercy and forgive us, for we know not what we do... Rick in Va
I don't hear anyone saying we will get rid of evil by feeding the hungry. Even Jesus didn't say that. But Jesus DID say, "Feed the hungry"! Not to convert them into good little Christians who won't hurt us anymore (can there be a more self-centered reason), but simply because they are hungry!!! Is it any wonder that Osama Bib Ladin (sp?) is able to call the U.S. a crusader nation, and that Bush is leading this crusade under the sign of the cross?? With attitudes like that submitted above, it is hard for anyone to say he's wrong. Just call me Angry!
I believe the whole parable is about 16:31 Jesus sais all of that to let them know that even though he was going to die and return from the grave that the church rulers and leaders would still refuse to believe in him. I have a friend who says that it took hell to make the rich man mission minded. He wanted Lazuras to go to his brothers so they would repent. Finally Jesus makes hell necessary because if God were to let one person into heaven because of their own righteousness then all that he put Jesus through on the cross would be meaningless and a sham. Thw thing is God has done everything possible to keep persons from going to hell and the only way one can get there is to refuse to accept God's gift of Jesus. sorry to ramble. Harold in Alabama
I thought we weren't going to allow attacks and name calling any more. Rick, you may not realize that main-line Christians happen to have Jesus as Lord too. The attack on them was wasteful and I would like to see you apologize. Yes, people need Christ. Yes, people need food. I received an e-mail suggesting we "bomb" with food and books and info and with things needed instead of with hate and detruction (very summarized). It certainly reminded me of Jesus - who we all need. well, i jumped in it too, and reacted rather than really lifting up the gospel lesson. sorry. rachel
I, too, am disturbed by your comments, Rick. I do believe that Jesus Christ is the redeemer of the world. I believe that the shadow of the cross of Christ covers the whole world. I think it is important to remember that our faith is not anything we do, it is God's gift to us. We can't take credit for it. All you can do with grace is say thank you and then respond. Our call as sinners who know we are redeemed is to proclaim the love of God, the grace of God for the world in Jesus Christ.
In your remarks, whether intended or not, I caught a hint that somehow this tragedy as deserved, or that places like Afghanistan that are not Christian, somehow have "it" coming, because they are not Christian. I can't find that sort of theology in Jesus' teachings. It is always the believers who are called to repentence and to proclamation. the most Jesus says is to shake the dust of your sandals. Remember also that the God of Islam is not a different God that the God of Judaism and Christianity. Even though Christians have a "fuller" concept of God, we know only what our finite human brains can absorb.
The prayer of the day for next Sunday in the Lutheran revised lectionary reads: "God of love, you know our frailities and failings. Give us your grace to overcome them; keep us from those things that harm us; and guide us in the way of salvation, through your son, Jesus Christ our Lord." This sounds to me like a plea for humility. RevKate in Portland OR
RevKate, You "caught" the wrong hint, specifically as to Afghanistan having "it" coming because they are not Christian. Not my intent to "hint" at anything but the mission of the Church, which is to be used by God to reveal His grace and to redeem the lost, in and through His Son Jesus Christ, as enabled by His Holy Spirit. I'm not really surprised by the charge that I'm name-calling (false that it might be), or that I'm "self-serving" because I want to make Christ known (the last one is really interesting in the light of Christ's call to make disciples of all nations), or that I need to apologize (for what, for quoting Scripture?). Those kinds of words are usually utilized by those who emphasize style over substance and so I'll have to expect that. But it does seem, based on the reaction my post has received, that those of you who encourage introspection and self-examination, that you should heed your own advice.
What is the mission of the church? To condemn the rich? To condemn a nation (America because she's so rich)? "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." How might the rich be used by God if they were effectively introduced to the gospel rather than billy-clubbed by hypocrites in robes? By the way, how many of you are living in tents and eating food scraps, walking everywhere you go, making your own clothes, etc, etc. Who are the rich? Comparatively speaking, we all are my friends, so don't go pointing the bony finger of accusation and condemnation against the rich without realizing that bony fingers are pointing back at you. Get on with Preaching the Word, preaching the good news found only in Christ (not Allah, Buddha, or a god of our own creation). And if this makes you angrier, reflect, like a good progressive, and ask yourself why. Rick in Va
Brother Rick and others, Before we get to heated we need to remember that the only thing that God requires of us is to love mercy, be just and walk humbly with God. It is rash and inaccurate to call Allah a God of our own making. Any serious student of Islam will tell you that Allah is the same One the Jews call Elohim, Adonai and YWHW, the One Jesus called Abba, the same One we call the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I would hope that none of us would find our initial response to 9/11 to be finding someone or something at which to point our fingers, bony or otherwise. It seems to me this is an event in which God is giving us the opportunity to reach out to all of God's children in love and concern rather than bang our sectarian drums. Salaam Aleikum, Shalom, Peace. cwe in IL
Hey Rick in Va...you wouldn't happen to be Presbyterian USA, would you? :) Jude in Wash
I am a first timer, but a long time lurker. Rick's comments have pulled me out of my hiding. I don't see this text so much as a conflict between the rich and poor as it is an expression of selfishness and exclusion. Lazarus sat at the gate totally ignored by the rich man, who thought he had it all, quite possibly an alusion to how the religious leaders of Jesus' day kept the people away from the banquet of God by their selfish pomposity. Rick, you quoted Matthew 26 accurately, but please do not forget Matthew 25 and these words also "just as you have DONE it to the least of these who are members of my family, you have done it to me." It isn't so much an issue of wealth, but proper stewardship of that wealth as we reach out to a hurting and aching world in the name of Christ. jb in VA
Ok, back to the text... What does it say about WHY the rich man goes to hell and WHY Lazarus goes to heaven? The text doesn't say a thing! Therefore, I would suggest that the point of this story ISN'T what each person "believed" or didn't "believe". Perhaps something else is going on... like the proclaimation of the end of the rule of death, will not be heard by too many folks in a world which considers death the one absolute which can be used against others (terrorists, rich people, liberals, etc.). Rick in Canada, eh?
I am very interested in the reactions to Rick's comments. It is a symptom of our American ambivalence about our own status, wealth, and spirituality that we either demonize persons who call the church to radical faithfulness to Jesus and his "Great Commission", or we flagellate ourselves and our society for the riches we enjoy. I don't think Rick was wrong in his analysis that what all people need is Jesus Christ. I think that if we take Jesus' own gospel message seriously, we must hold that as the central principle by which we act towards others. What I find very difficult to swallow is the idea that if a person is passionate about evangelizing, that person is automatically narrow-minded, even hateful.
I propose that we humble ourselves as a society. That doesn't automatically mean that we will all start living in tents and eating stale bread. It does mean that as a nation, we will do away with the arrogance that believes human beings are important in proportion to how much oil they sit on, or in inverse proportion to how cheaply they can sew an athletic shoe together. It means that we begin to look at ourselves as stewards of a large portion of THE WORLD's resources. But it also means that we share the gospel concerning Jesus Christ with all persons. I guarantee that it is possible to honor other people, to see them as unique persons of sacred worth, and still maintain that they need to know Jesus. Well, enough ranting. Chuck in Iowa.
Oh, and I did want to say also that Christians really have learned a little about Mission since the missionaries made Polynesians wear long pants and dresses. I suggest that sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ is the "what", and that feeding the hungry [etc] is the "how." Chuck in Iowa.
OK. One more word and on to Sunday's text. If I came across as trying to demonize anyone, that wasn't my purpose. And I don't think I called names or condemned our country. I guess maybe we are all reading between the lines. I know folks I've talked with feel both more compassionate and more short-tempered and impatient. Maybe we've forgotten how to breathe with the sadness and anger and fear in the air. Maybe we just need to take in the life-giving Spirit right now, to be still and listen for God to speak instead of us. I sure don't want to drive wedges into our Christian community.
As for the text, Robert Capon in "Parables of Grace" sees the parable of Lazarus and Dives as the difference between those who realize they are dead and those who think they have life in themselves. Dives doesn't even realize he is dead in the middle of hell. And Lazarus is the Christ-figure living out of death. I like Capon's work. It takes this tale out of moralizing into proclamation of resurrection. RevKate in Portland
Very often, when someone speaks an unwanted truth, those hearing first get mad - then get sad - and eventually by grace get glad. Plenty of mad here. A goodly dose of sad as well. Lord, in the face of these angry and sad words, send your joy.
Sorry forgot to give my name. Longroadwalker in Israel
Boy, oh, boy! What a wild one! Glad I found time to read Monday night ... Chuck in Iowa: I think you hit it right on the head. To the biting ones: Don't be so thin-skinned. Like Chuck said, it really isn't an either/or situation. As for me, I have always been intrigued by the telling nature of 16:31 when it comes to this Scripture: Jesus did rise from the dead, and to many it makes no difference at all. So the question becomes: "What Difference Does It Make?"
Best thing I've seen on this parable is in Christian Century 9/12-19/2001, page 18. Mark Harris the author lays it out with all the truth buring like a fire. He's clear about how this story impacts the hearers, since we DO have one who has risen from the dead. The point is that if we are deaf to the calls for justice, bread, and a cup of water, then, as Harris says, then resurrection has not convinced us but convicted us. I'm dealing with all the lessons as a move into stewardship themes. Richard in Stone Mountain, GA
God's peace to all. It is at times difficult enough to make sense of a text and the lives of the people we serve. Now that we are pastoring on the other side of "the day the world went numb" it is even more difficult. So difficult that perhaps we are looking for things to lash out at each other for, knowing that we will forgive each other in the end...
Another pastor at a text study asked a question I found helpful. Who "fixed the chasm"? We may not be able to answer that question for life after death, but it seems to me that for this life, it is the rich who create a chasm (or a moat), often by our lack of awareness that we do so. Yet we can still hear Moses and the prophets, we can still build bridges. KB in WA
Re "the day the world went numb"; I'm struggling to figure out if people are numb or still too raw. Isn't that part of why this text is so tough just now; it's too applicable? KB in WA
Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door! James 5:9 niv.
I think most of us would agree the constant thread that we see in the Word of God (Bible) is that God is all about grace and mercy. Compassion and seeing each person in this world as a relative created in the same image of God is the big picture this passage addresses. Last weeks passage was to the disciples. It reminded them that they need to be true in their walk with God following the principles God has set before them for a Godly life. This weeks passage is to Pharisee's who believed they had all the answers yet failed to get in step with God, Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
As you can see the message was the same for the people when God spoke through the prophets (in this case Micah). These Pharisee's had left out some of these principles to live by. And by doing so they were the ones on their way to a place (hell) far away from God. Money, being rich or poor is a stage people understand divisions of life from, so this is where Jesus met them and tried to explain God's instructions for a life truly committed to God.
The bottom line is are we listening to God? It is men who draw the line in the sand; boundries around countries and doctrines around religion and seperation between classes. In the beginning there was none of that and especially... there was no death. Jesus rising from the dead (which all these readers of Matthew knew was true, over 500 witnesses) is a reminder of the original created order God has called us back to; ...in Christ Jesus, ..has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Corinthians 1:30 I see using Abraham as the mediator in the conversation as a wise move by the story teller. The audience is from a Jewish background that realizes Abraham was wise to follow God's instruction on faith alone. KB in KS
Brothers and sisters, I should be able to anger everyone in this discussion for I believe with Rick (and Paul before him) that the one thing is to know Jesus and that all else is rubbish. Second, I agree with the liberals that the gospel and the epistle condemn the wealth of America and the church. We can not serve two masters. Most people's god, including most Christians, in our nation is wealth. None the less, let us proclaim the good news of what God has done in Jesus, the way that Jesus calls us to live, and remain confident that as we seek to live this out with our brothers and sisters that God's Spirit will be at working making us and others new. In Christ, Dale Proulx
One cannot get around the fact that Jesus and the early Church made the claim that He, and He alone, is the way, the truth, and the life. This doesn't make Jesus exclusionary. His desire is that all would be included. After all, John 3:16 tells us that God so loved "the world," a fairly inclusive entity, that He gave His Son so that all who believe in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. Jesus goes on to tell Nicodemus that He came into the world not to condemn it, but save it, but that those who refused to believe (trust) in Him were choosing their own fate.
I agree with those who have written previously that the issue in this parable is not money, it's surrender to God. Lazarus is not more virtuous because of his lack of cash, but because he is surrendered to God. Throughout the Gospels, in fact, you find Jesus having dealings with both the wealthy and the poor. One of the characteristics of the early Church, as Willimon points out in his commentary on Acts, is the easy intermingling of persons of differing social strata that occurred. God's love of the wealthy goes way back. Abraham was rich, for example. It is the love of wealth that is the root of evil, not being wealthy.
I also agree with those who have written that money, or the lack of it, is not at the root of the attacks sustained by the United States on September 11. I think it would be misguided eisegesis to suggest that it is, no matter how moved we may be by the plight of ordinary Afghans. M in OH
Joachim Jeremias' comments are helpful in understanding this parable: The first point is concerned with the reversal of fortune in the after-life (vv. 19-26), the second (vv. 27-31) with the petition of the rich man that Abraham may send Lazarus to his five brethren. . . [Jesus places] the stress is on the second point. That means that Jesus does not want to comment on a social problem, nor does he intend to give teaching about the after-life, but he relates the parable to warn men who resemble the brothers of the rich man of the impending danger. Hence the poor Lazarus is only a secondary figure, introduced by way of contrast.
The parable is about the five brothers, and it should not be styled the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, but the parable of the Six Brothers. The surviving brothers, who have their counterpart in the men of the Flood generation [Jeremias' reference to Noah's generation], living a careless life, heedless of the rumble of the approaching flood (Matt. 24:37-39), are men of this world, like their dead brother. Like him they live in selfish luxury, deaf to God's word, in the belief that death ends all (v. 28). Scornfully, Jesus was asked by these skeptical worldlings for a valid proof of a life after death, if they were to be paying heed to his warning. Jesus wanted to open their eyes, but to grant their demand would not be the right way to do so.
Why did Jesus refuse it? Because its fulfillment would have been meaningless; even the greatest wonder, resurrection, would be in vain [in John 11:46 ff. the raising of Lazarus served to complete the hardening of the Jews]. He who will not submit to the word of God, will not be converted by a miracle. The demand for a sign is an evasion and a sign of impenitence. Hence the sentence is pronounced: "God will never give a sign to this generation" (Mark 8.12). Joachim Jeremias, The Parables of Jesus, Scribners, 1972, p. 186-187. Rick in Va
Interesting discussion so far.... My theologically conservative streak agrees with Rick in VA; my socially liberal side agrees that the issue is the proper use of wealth. I begin to feel the tug of the faith-vs-works debate ... and I turn to that "straw epistle", the Letter of James and remind myself that the two are inextricably linked: "2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith."
Yes, the message here is having faith ... but it is also the right use of our resources as evidence of that faith. I used the following bit of information in my sermon last Sunday (it's not in the on-line version 'cause I only thought to use it about 2 seconds before the start of the Mass on Sunday). It's from "The Give and Take Connection" by Terry Parsons, in the July issue of Networking, the Newsletter of the Episcopal Network for Stewardship: "Did you know that if Christians in the United States had tithed in 1998, they would have contributed an additional $131 billion to their churches?" International organizations that deal with health matters estimate that $2.5 billion annually could stop an estimated 11.1 million deaths of children under the age of five that take place each year. These are the so-caled preventable deaths due to things like starvation and the lack of immunization as well as what most U.S. parents consider ordinary medical care.
That's right. We could have prevented the deaths of approximately 30,410 children each day and still had $128.5 billion left over! We could have spent $7 billion providing primary education for the world's children who are currently without it and doled out another $70 to $80 billion providing basic services for the rest of the world's population in need of same. Still, we would have had a princely $40.5 to $50.5 billion or so to lavish on ourselves in the form of priests, musicians, youth leaders, lay leadership training and Christian formation, plus we could repair leaky roofs, wheezing organs and rusty plumbing, and then do new construction and assorted other maintenance and ministry needs here at home. Sounds downright miraculous, doesn't it? And all it takes is a faithful ten percent from each of us."
Dives had plenty of money, but little faith. He could not cross the chasm without the faith. If he had had the faith, it would have been evidenced in his proper use of and sharing of his resources. Arguments about whether the parable is about faith or money (works) are pointless -- it is about both for they are one-in-the-same in this context.
Apropos of the suggestion that "money, or the lack of it, is not at the root of the attacks sustained by the United States on September 11," I have to stand on the opposite side. The leadership of these misguided fanatics may have lots of dough ... but the suicide-bombers whom they recruit come from the have-nots, from those angered by and envious of the scandalous wealth selfishly misused by the Dives of the world (not all of them American one needs to add). If that wealth were properly shared, if preventable child deaths were prevented, if basic human needs were provided for, if education were readily available, there would be no "underclass" of disaffected, nothing-to-live-for poor from whom to recruit the suicide-bombers. Money, or the lack of it, is at the root of this terrorist war ... it is AT the root ... but THE root is faith, or lack of it, on both sides of the conflict.
I'm grateful I don't have to preach on this text, and thus this subject, again this week. We are celebrating the Feast of our parish's Patron Saint (Francis of Assisi -- actually on 10/4, but we're "translating" the celebration to 9/30) so I will be preaching on the propers for his "day" -- the Gospel I'm working with is Matthew 11:25-30 with that strange stuff about hidden wisdom revealed to infants!
Blessings, Eric in KS
How did RevKate get separate paragraphs into her post???? I tried with the above -- double "enters" and the html code <P> and neither worked! What's the key? -- Thanks, Eric in KS
I just did a double return to make my paragraphs. I don't know why it worked. RevKate
1 Timothy 6:6-19, Luke 16:19-31 An English Dentist decided that he was going to find the safest, most secure home for his family. He did a detailed study of the world and learned that there had never been a war in the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic. So he moved his family to the Falklands. Much to his surprise the Argentine government decided they wanted those islands and launched a war to take them from Great Britain.
There is no security on this planet. An Afghan woman sittings in a tent in a refuge camp in Pakistan spinning yarn while the foreign reporter asks her husband questions about their homeland. She speaks, she has an opinion too, "If the king would come back and unite the people, my country could be free again." I didn't know that they had a living king, a shah who has been in exile for 30 years in Pakistan. Her hope that the king would come and restore the land is very like our hopes for Jesus to return as King of Kings, Lord of Lords. Her husband shakes his head, he has no hope.
There is no security from human leaders. Howard Hughes, rich beyond our imagination, died inspite of his attempts to protect himself from all disease causing agents by becoming a recluse. The old hymn says, "Time bears all her sons away." Death comes to each and everyone in time.
There is no security in riches. You farmers have a saying about locking the barn after the horse is gone. Some of the security measures that are now being put into place were long over due. Study after study showed that airport security except in Israel was lax. Many other measures come from fear, not necessity. Five state troopers did not need to escort Coach Lou Holtz across the Mississippi State field after South Carolina beat Mississippi Thursday night. Jewell County Court House doesn't need increased security either, at least not from foreign nationals.
Local home grown crazies might be another issue. There are often stories about estranged husbands or boyfriends killing or wounding wives or girlfriends in these United States. Where is true security? Those of us who trust the Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior have eternal security. We are subject to the same forces and events on planet as every other person. We have been placed in a caring community to help us bear the burdens that come our way. We have been bound together in love and grace by God. Sue in Cuba, KS
What do we think of this "Reversal Theology"? Those who are rich now, will be poor in the kingdom; and those who are poor now will enjoy the riches (the true riches, of last weeks Gospel). Is this something we, who belong to the elite, believe or not? tom in ga
cwe in Il, No drum-beating, sectarian or otherwise, here. Just simple singing, accapella (and if in the shower, worthy of hearing). I can't disagre more with your use of the word 'only' when speaking of that which God requires of us. In Luke 13, just a few verses before this week's gospel lesson, Jesus Himself speaks of repentance and of bearing fruit and His words are not vague or too easily dismissed as to whether or not either are required. I think it to be far too casual a thing to extrapolate the Micah verses and to use the word 'only' as to that which He requires of us. Far, far too casual.
I believe that you were again too casual when you went on to quote me as stating that Allah was a god of one's own creation. I am fully aware that Allah, Elohim and the Father of Jesus Christ are one and the same. But I find that to be a partial truth. I believe that you are again being far too casual in stating that the three religions worship the same God. I think you would agree that when one tells a partial truth, and then follows it by a lie, that they cannot then say that the whole truth is being told. To say that we all worship the same God is to belittle the very major differences that these religions have as to the person of Jesus Christ. It is also to diminish, in this Christian's eyes, the divinity of Jesus Christ.
I worship God the Father, through His Son Jesus Christ, by His Holy Spirit. Muslims and Jews cannot say the same. In that sense, the conclusion is obvious. We do not worship the same God. And Muslims and Jews, and boy, will this make some of you hopping mad so take a breath before reacting, are in the camp of those who need to hear the gospel, and who need to heed Christ's own words in Luke 13, as to what is required of them.
So please cwe... be less casual in your exegesis, especially before you stand in the pulpit before your flock. You will be held accountable, as a shepherd of Christ's flock, for the words uttered, and I, genuinely and humbly, would hope that you are aware of the consequences of leading God's people astray. Rick in Va
What does it take to get people to love each other, to live in the kingdom of God revealed in Jesus Christ? Does it take a contrast in lifestyles, where the need of the poor and the ability of the rich to help are both great? Doesn’t work that way for the rich man and Lazarus. The crumbs from the rich man’s table would be enough for Lazarus, but the rich man can’t even part with that.
Does it take a reversal of fortunes; i.e., for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich? How many of us have made that promise: if only I had enough money, I would help others. I would never ignore the needs of others, the way that they have ignored me. And yet, those who can afford it still flee the inner cities to avoid the poor. Does it take the Law of Moses and the words of the prophets? The rules are already in place, and we already understand what we are to do, and yet . . . Does it take someone coming back from the dead? Mary and Martha’s brother, a different Lazarus, was raised from the dead. A widow’s son was raised from the dead. The centurion’s daughter was raised from the dead. Jesus, the Son of God, was resurrected; and he defeated sin and death. And still we live in a world that is so much less that the reign of God. Does it take a miracle? Some think it is a miracle when God does what we want. Others think it is a miracle when we do what God wants!
I have often told my parishioners that there are no miracles in the Bible, if we define a miracle as something we can’t explain. The people of the Bible could explain it – God did it! We, however, still want proofs and explanations that don’t require God, so we don’t expect miracles like the kingdom; we settle for the possible and the political (the art of the possible.) What does it take to get people to love each other, to live in the kingdom of God revealed in Jesus Christ? Nothing we can do from this side of the chasm. It takes someone who can bridge the gap with forgiveness, with mercy, with love – it takes Jesus Christ living in us and through us in order for us to unconditionally love one another. OLAS
This parable follows one on stewardship from last Sunday. Last Sunday, I used as a sermon theme, "The Testitmony of our Lives", meaning that how we live our lives is in itself, a statement of our believe in Christ as Savior. This parable reinforces and enlarges on the prior parable. Our hearing of the Gospel must have some impact on our lives. Hal in Wisconsin
Hi all. Eric in KS contributed, "Did you know that if Christians in the United States had tithed in 1998, they would have contributed an additional $131 billion to their churches?" Anyone have similar stats for Canada? Rick in Canada, eh?
I am wondering about the possibility of comparing and contrasting "just war" and "jihad." I confess that I want to see justice done, but I am struggling with the rightness of our going to war with the perpetrators of the September 11 attack on America. Is anyone else out there thinking in a similar vein? Danny C. in Tennessee
Been off the lectionary on a sermon series on the Lord's prayer. Interestingly September 11th fell between "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" and "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil." I kept with the sermon series and found that, in the midst of these trials, the Lord's Prayer takes on some deep meaning. However, it's back to the lectionary. I just wanted to share that I think we (I, America, the rich, etc) can work hard to take away the social offense of the Gospel at times. Is this week's text only about money? No. Is money part of what it is about? Yes. There is a whole segment of Christian theology which does say that those who are poor are closer to the Kingdom of God than those (me) who are rich.
I would love to make this text about something other than money. But I can't make it completely other than money. I recall sitting in a Sunday School class as we discussed the Rich Man who was told to sell all he had to give to the poor and he walked away sadly. One person claimed "He didn't really want the guy to sell all he had. It was just a lesson about not loving money very much." Well, that's not what the text says, but it's what we want it to say. We can run into the same type of problem here. Alaska Jim
Dear Rick in Canada Eh, I believe the 131 billion US translates to about 780 trillion useless canadian dollars.
I can easily understand the desire to use the events of recent weeks as the catalyst for a sermon on this text but some of what I've read here seems to me to more eisegesis (sp?) rather than exegesis. What is the parable saying? It is not a direct attack on being rich but rather the rich ignoring the needs of the poor. Lazarus sat at the rich man's gate hoping for his crumbs. He was so weak and sick he could not even keep the dogs from licking his sores. In hell, the rich man calls Lazauus by name so he knew who he was, he knew his poor, sick condition but refused to help. That was his sin. Now he is in a poor and wretched condition.
There is no doubt that Luke's gospel shows that God has a bias towrads the poor and the refusal of those who have to help those who have not is the great chasm we create on earth which is reflected here as having eternal ramifications. The Scriptures (OT Scriptures to the original hearers) have plenty of declarations about helping the poor and needy so even a man coming back from the dead would not convince the rich man's brothers just as it has not convinced millions of Americans and Australans today. NE Sydney, Australia
Rick in VA, I just reviewed Luke 13 ande found nothing in it that contradicted what I said, before. I would appreciate it if you could point to a specific place where Jesus contradicts Micah. I too am a trinitarian, however, that does not make me not a monotheist. I know that for many that is a paradox, get used to it God gives us many of them i.e. the first shall be last. I will leave saving the world to God, it is enough for me to preach Christ and try to live as a disciple. cwe in IL
To Rick. . .I am an 'evangelical' and though I am fully committed to preaching the Gospel of Christ. . it is, for me, Good News for the WHOLE person. God in Christ does not just save souls, but people. . .people with hearts, minds, and bodies. The pitting of 'conservatives', 'evangelicals', liberals and the like is most unhelpful. I am sadenned - not so much by WHAT you have said as HOW you have said it. I agree that the whole discussion does not seem to be an attempt at exegesis but isogesis. I made a plea for ideas for an ALL AGE service. No one has replied. I NOW MAKE A PLEA FOR RESPECT, CALM, AND A SENSE OF HUMOUR IN OUR DISCUSSIONS. PLEASE. A Canadian in Scotland.
Rick, I believe that the only thing that Jesus spoke on as much as money and possessions, is prayer and the kingdom of God. I agree that the issue within Scripture isn't so much money, as it is the love of money and the use of money. It also seems to me that adhering to the Scriptures,loving God, and following the teaching and example of Christ requires using wealth to care for the poor rather than for materialism. I can think of no Bible passage that would endorse the materialism in America and many that require using wealth in the service of those in need. Further, I don't see any of this at odds with an evangelical proclamation of what God has done in Jesus Christ. What think ye? In Christ, Dale Proulx
Rick,
I don't know how familiar you are with Pietism? It is a renewal movement that began within Lutheranism in the 1600's. The marks of the movement are: new birth experience, focus on growing into the image and likeness of Christ, all who know Christ are brothers and sisters in Christ, authority of Scripture, ministry of the laity, Bible study, publication and spreading of Scripture, sending of missonaries, and significant outreach to those in need.
The final mark is an irenic spirit with those whose views one is in opposition with. Even when under attack Pietists sought to give a gentle response. I see this as Scriptural: speak the truth in love, and always be prepared to give an accounting for the hope that is in you, but do so with gentleness and reverance. I also see this as pragmatic, as I've yet to experience a truthful word, harshly given as moving people to my point of view. This is where I believe we differ, in the methods we use more than in our beliefs.
In Christ, Dale Proulx
cwe in IL, Perhaps you should read Luke 13 again. Specifically, I would look at verse 3, 5, and 24 that seem to strongly suggest Jesus is requiring more than acting justly, walking humbly and loving mercy alone. Remember that you used the word "only" in reference to Micah 6 and I'm simply doing nothing more than stating that there is more than those three acts that Christ requires of us. Much, much more.
I'm heartened by your desire to preach Christ and to be His disciple, I'm asking that you be honest with the whole of God's revealed word and not "only" rely on the prophet Michah. "Only" is a rather exclusive word is it not? And if I've learned anything from reading posts here on the DPS, exclusivity is to be abhorred.
To the Scottish Canadian, I have been most respectful, most calm and have tried to interject humor. I only ask that the open-minded among us adhere to notions of tolerance and to their principles of ambiguity and consider my definitions of calmness, respect and humor to be honest ones I've attempted to apply.
To Dale... we've been down this road before. I'm not convinced that God calls all to what you deem to be piety. I am convinced that God calls us to be devoted to Him and to reverence Him. That's the brand of piety I adhere to (or certainly attempt to).
I think I have been most respectful of persons here. I have not been as respectful of ideas and/or certain notions. Scripture seems clear that we are not to resect certain notions or ideas either. I'm trying to model my clear understanding of Scripture. I try to be conciliatory without compromising a Biblical worldview. A Godly woman once gave me advice as to how to be an effective witness to God's work in my life. She told me to be genuine. This is exactly what I'm attempting to be. Rick in Va
Canadian In Scotland, ( I hope I got that right) One source I am using illustrates this by bringing some treat and distributing it so that you keep by far the larger portion. The kids are suppose to tell you that it is unfair, from there you can talk about it. You might depending upon size distribute more to one side of the church than the other. An use their expressions to start the sermon. Nancy-WI
Dear Canadian in Scotland, My, you are patient. I'm planning on using Charles Dicken's "A Christmas Carol" as an organizing metaphor, playing on the idea of a messenger being allowed to warn us, and the grace we are shown in hearing the story while we're still here. Might even sing a carol before, just to set the tone. Something "all ages" might be able to work with, 'eh? God speed, Rick in MO
All this discussion of heaven and hell reminds me of an old joke. Somewhere in southern USA, there were two churches in a small village, located across the street from one other. The sign in front of one announced the sermon title as "There is no hell". The other church's sign read, "The hell there is." Rev. Karen in Ontario
Re: Inter-age resources ... check out the drawing one of my kindergarten day school students did on September 12th. It's posted on my parish website at: http://www.stpeterssanpedro.org/crayons_of_babes.htm I will use it next week in the Children's Sermon ... with the kids to illustrate that they can trust the difference between the evil in the world and the the power of God's love -- and with the adults to challenge them to continue to build "God's Church" as a place where we live up to Ben's vision of what it can be. Blessings, susan in sanpedro
The irony of Jesus' statement at the end should not be lost on us and our hearers--"though someone rise from the dead, they will not heed." Someone DID: the Storyteller himself. Have we or have we not heeded his words and work? Two pieces to consider with this passage. (1) In earthly life, the rich man and Lazarus SEEM worlds apart, but actually they are very close: (a) in the sense that Lazarus is close enough almost to eat from the rich man's hand, or at least to clean up the scraps (like one of the dogs who alone will come tend to him) ; and (b) they are "close" in the sense that, no matter the economic gulf between them, both will die and enter the world to come on equal terms (i.e., as the Timothy reading says, "we can take nothing with us"). (2) Another point to consider is the links between the Jeremiah, Luke, and Timothy readings for this Sunday--all have to do with building a future on God's terms, and all have not to do with wealth or possessions, per say, but with the proper USE or END (goal) of earthly wealth. TK in OK
Rick, Fair enough. While this is how God calls me to be, I can't say that it is how he calls you. Certainly, Old Testament prophets weren't gentle. I'll try to not have a "senior" moment and be repetitive again! Dale
This reading asks "Tuesday Questions"; that is, it keeps to the fore "How am I going to live my life this side of my death?" Tuesday, of course, from Tuesdays with Morrie. Ever since Sept 11--a Tuesday---we've had a very acute chance to look at this question and be invited into a whole realm of questions beyond our quibbling about liberals/conservatives...blah, blah, blah. The answer to these life and death issues is here, Jesus Christ, the one whom the Law and Prophets testify. Either Jesus had it right when he said "I'm Resurrection....." or he didn't. People want to hear about this, about how if I'm on a plane crashing into WTF, I can trust that God will still be there in my dying, too. Rich and poor alike need to hear and trust that. WKR-Ohio
A good children's message regarding complacency: Have a plate of candy, or cookies sitting near by. "What do you think we should do with these cookies?" If no answer: well that's what a lot of people do...just sit and do nothing. If anser is, "share them" say Yes, that's a good idea...when do you think we should share them. After church....yes, that happens a lot...lets wait and do it later. Why not share them now? It's church or never eat in church...yes? the church is suposed to be a place to serve one another but too often we don't becasue "we never did it that way before" Wo what do you say, why don't we share them right now! kids say yes but just sit there. Yep, just like churches...lets do this, that etc., but never do anything. Would you like to pass them around? still sit. Oh No!! don't tell me you still arn't going to do it. Well, you get the jist of the message...think about it..just about anything the kids do can be compared to some type of complacency. Hopefully you won't have some wise kid that spoils your point. Lindy <http://home.twcny.rr.com/lyndale>
Rick from VA, If you check Micah 6:8 "He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" you discover that I made and error using the term "only" when the translation is "but to do" in the context of that chapter the term "only" was a rough but fair paraphrase. I hope that clears up that issue. It has little to do with today's text.
David Buttrick sees this parable in the light of the pharasaic notion that wealth and good fortune were proof of one's righteousness, and a statement by Jesus that such complacency and lack of humility are incompatible with life in the kingdom. The message is not about wealth but about unbelief. The rich man has lost his sense of dependence on God and his awareness therefore of his connection with all people including Lazarus. In the end he still sess Lazarus as a servant to his needs and his concern is solely for his 5 brothers, all of whom presumably like him are rich.
There is a connection between this reality and the lack of concern we have felt for the millions who have died in terror in Sudan, Somalia, Congo, Ruanda-Burundi, Kosovo, Cambodia, Northern Ireland, etc., over the past two decades, and our anguish over 7,000 who died in USA 9/11. Are American lives worth more than others? Certainly not in God's sight! Think of it 9/11 is God's reality every day. Are the 5 brothers us? And if so what have we learned? cwe in IL
Grace and peace to you all. I've been coming to this site for a while now but I think in light of the way the "discussions" are going, I won't be back. It seems to me that name calling and finger-pointing is unsuitable behavior for folks who claim the name Christian. I also think that the devil sits back and smiles when he sees "God's people" engaging in this type of behavior. Brothers and sisters, we are in a war that has been raging since the fall. It will not end until the command is give to bind Satan and cast him into the lake of fire. It is our job, as ambassadors of Christ, to guide our fellow humans into a relationship with Jesus. I don't believe we can do that if we are continually at war with ourselves.
Living for Jesus is all about grace. I don't see much of that going on here. I left a couple of Christian chat rooms because of this same type of behavior, and I'm getting pretty close to doing the same thing here. It's always nice to hear others thoughts and insights to Scripture, but from now on, I think I'll rely on God and not humans. Forgive me for being so blunt. I love you all and forgive you. So long. Ritla
Please accept my apologies for my ignorance of how to post a message only once :) Ritla
Sure there's a religion that doesn't make exclusive salvation claims. It's America's national religion, too. It's the religion of the flesh. Good people will always include ourselves, you see. Bad people will always be other people.It's easy to think that we don't have to listen to Moses and the prophets, or even to the One Who has returned from the dead; that somehow it will all come out in the wash. Trouble is, Jesus doesn't permit us that option, and the moment we allow it to ourselves we aren't preaching Christ any more. After all, He came to save bad people, not good ones!
The comments about bin Laden and blood lust are as offensive as they are off topic. Jesus is not teaching salvation by unbelief or poverty here, and neither is it the case that He automatically sides with the enemies of the United States. Morally perverse knee-jerk political responses are probably not what the Lord meant to motivate by this parable!
A few weeks ago Pulpitt in ND asked if we might sing our postings with our e-mail addresses (a good thought, but I keep forgetting to do it). I would be greatful if people would just identify themselves. This week there are several unsigned postings and it seems unlikely they are by the same person, but they might be. Could we please have ID's of some sort on our comments? Thanks, Eric in KS
Ritla, As respectfully as I can, as honestly as I'm able, I ask you to seriously ponder your premise. You're not going to find a discussion site where everyone is in agreement, where everyone is all hugs and kisses, smiles and good wishes. Why? Because the Church is the broken representation of the body of Christ. Because it's a house of sinners. And more specifically, because it's filled with those who find Christ and His exclusive claims offensive. This week's passage deals with heaven and hell, concepts most don't even believe in the mainline. This week's passage touches on repentance, and most think that this applies only to the rich and to nations like America. Verse 31, in my view, is the key to the entire passage. It's a lament pointing to how hardened hearts can be.
So Ritla, get a grip here, grow an epidermis, understand that God doesn't call us to withdraw from the world but to engage it. Don't take your football and go home. Get in there and discourse. You say from now on you'll rely on God, well good for you, but what do you think the rest of us are attempting to do? Your post smacks of the very arrogance you're attempting to besmirch, and I'm sure that was not your intention. So dip your sinner's toe into the water then jump on in, the water's fine and there's always room for yet another hypocrite. But don't withdraw. Don't go to the mountaintop and then stay there all by yourself. That's not what God calls us to do. Go to the mountaintop and then carry that which is given to you back to the villages, the small towns, the big cities, the hilltops and the valleys and engage, mingle, mix, join in, blend, and otherwise associate with the rest of us sinners, with your eyes on Jesus and your heart on His purposes. Rick in Va
Friend Rick in VA wrote: "This week's passage touches on repentance, and most think that this applies only to the rich and to nations like America." --- Rick, I don't think this is a fair representation of what many of us are arguing. We are not saying that in applies "only" to the rich or "only" to America... we are simply trying to make the point that it APPLIES! There are a lot of rich Americans who don't see themselves in this story -- those of us who are preachers do! I am only too aware of my own wealth and privilege in contrast to most of the world (though not in contrast to my congregation, most of whom have incomes around three times what they are willing to pay clergy, and none of whom tithe, although my wife and I do! OK, I'll stop complaining.) The point is not an exclusive application but simply application. Blessings, Eric in KS
help!!!!!!!! I thought I read a post last week using crosses in worship. I thought I would use it this week, but I can't seem to remember where I saw it. Does anyone else remember it? Nancy-WI
THANK YOU. . . THANK YOU. . .THANK YOU. . .to all who gave me ideas for an all-age service. They have been a spring board for me in a week when I seem to have run dry of creativity.
To Dale Proulx. . .I appreciate the richness of the pietistic approach and of your obvious thoughtfulness in your contributions. Don't stop with the 'senior' moments. . .we all need to be reminded. Even the prophets spoke their hard truths with tears.
To Rick in VA. . .I am glad you desire to be genuine in expressing your views. I am keen to be faithful to the scripture and honest with God too. It's just that the way you express your opinions lacks an element of humility and gentleness. You put across the impression that you have a 'corner on the truth.'
As I ponder this text, I am convinced that Jesus' story is a challenge between life and death, heaven (eternal life lived in God's presence) and hell (eternal death through the total absence of God's presence), God's way or my way. It has to do with grace and generosity. It has to do with the use of our resources/wealth in ensuring equality between peoples. What many folk have shared in this discussion has demonstrated their reverence for the Word of God and their desire to engage with it as the Living Word that cuts through the fog of our own self-deceit and gives us a clear vision of how to live our lives according to Kingdom values. A Canadian in Scotland.
Sorry... I touched something and something happened...!!! Read verses 17-19 from I Timothy 6: "As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty, or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God who richly provides us with everthing for our enjoyment. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, and ready to share, thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life." How can anyone say that money has nothing to do with faith? What we do with our money is symbolic of our relationship with God, and our response to God's grace. Preaching about money may not convert anyone, but we certainly can't leave it out. DGinNYC
For cwe ... BINGO! You wrote "The message is not about wealth but about unbelief. The rich man has lost his sense of dependence on God ..." EXACTLY! And in this particular story, Jesus uses wealth as the thing that gets between the man and God ... in other stories and parables it was something else -- but the punchline is always the same: everything we are and have and hope to be are gifts that come from God ... and when we begin to worship the gift rather than the giver of those gifts we err. ANYTHING can become an idol in our hands ... this nation we love and yearn to protect and defend; our churches, traditions and "orthodoxies"; even the very Scriptures given to lead us to God can become an idol if we worship them rather than the One who gave them to us.
Which brings me back to the question, "then what IS the standard? what DO we rely on?" Micah 6:8 and Jesus' own words, "The greatest commandment is this: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the law and the prophets." Blessings, susan in sanpedro
Well, I guess I lost what I began with, which was a simple thank you to Eric in Kansas and Sue in Cuba, KS for your thoughtful comments. This site is still helpful, despite the angry accusations. DGinNYC
To the Canadian in Scotland, I liked Lindy's idea about the plate of cookies, but have always trembled at asking questions of the "babes" for fear of what might come from their mouths. Here's an idea I saw used in a "youth" service, where I was once invited to bring the message (through "gospel magic" illusions, which wake the childlike wonder in all ages). At the time they usually had the "children's chat", a child came and presented an object lesson for the adults. Then several kids distributed suckers to all the grown-ups, reversing the usual procedure.
Concerning the text- Many have jumped to interpret out of it agreement from Jesus to their previously held views. That is something I'm not innocent of myself, but this time I need some background thinking on some questions. Help me out here. In the Lukan story, the poor man is named Lazarus. Luke has Jesus saying,"neither will they be convinced, even if some rises from the dead." In John's gospel a man is raised from the dead, named Lazarus. Coincidence? A biggie, if so. The parable is told by Jesus, but is written by Luke, later, and for his own purposes. What were they? What was going on in Luke's time that this story speaks to? We regularly vilify the Pharisees, but could this also have been addressed to the Sadducees, who denied the ressurection or any life beyond this one to enjoy or fret over? Something in me wants to know how and why Luke used the story, before appropriating it for my own use. This time, anyway. tom in TN(USA)
O.K., I double returned and it did make paragrahs on my screen, but not on the site's. My wife always accuses me of running on, in sentences as well as paragraphs(she's a journalist, short and to the point)so now I have an excuse, and, from the looks of this, an example. tom in TN(USA)
I rarely comment but always read when I am preaching. I am a seminary student and always appreciate the insights, comments, and even the arguments! The reality is that even the Gospel writers did not always agree, that is why there are 4 versions of the same story! I am writing a paper on a Luke scripture so have been doing some studing of the book this week. In every chapter of the entire book there is some comment that is related to food, eating, meals or something in that arena. Luke has Jesus always pointing to the image of the heavenly banquet somehow and that the poor of this world would get to enjoy it too. The faithful God presented by Jesus wants to feed the hungry people of this world. These ideas come from "Luke, Artist and Theologian" by Robert Karris, not from me!
I am also studying the Sacraments in the NT and have learned a great deal about banquets in that era. When Lazarus is "reclining" at the breast of Abraham they are actually sharing a couch at a feast, which is the way they ate then! The rich man (where did you get the name Dives?) "reclined" - the correct Greek translation - "every day" and "feasted sumptiously". In that world famine was very common and the poor were often hungry but the rich of the world - and that includes us - ate every day very well no matter what. Lazarus was invisible to the rich man because that is the way things were then in his world/family - including his brothers.
But Not everyone who was rich were like this rich man, and not every one who is rich today is bad. I love the statistics about if Christians in the US tithed the differences we could make. I know that each Sunday in many churches the offering barely covers the bills of the church upkeep (electricity, salaries, etc)but the good that is done by Christians world wide with what is given even now is amazing. Just think what COULD be done! Just think what the rich man could have done in his own time. The dogs that licked Lazarus' wounds came to him after eating scraps from under the feast table. (Lots of sculptures show the ideal feast always had a dog to eat scraps)
I appreciate that there is no vengence to be felt in this scripture. Justice and vengence are difference. But Justice is not bombing a nation of poor people with no power that has cruel and dangerous leaders. I imagine that Ben Ladin reclines at feasts daily while there are wounded poor at his very gate. We, the rich in America, have poor at our gates too. Some of the wounded in our society are no more fun to hang out with than Lazarus was for his day, but Jesus is clearly calling us to feed the hungry - and not just in Luke's Gospel. "Once upon a time there was a rich man and there was a poor man," wouldn't it be great if the story could end like this... "and they reclined at the heavenly banquet together with Abraham after their deaths." That is what we are called to lead our congregations to realize. Good luck and God's blessings and inspiration to all of you! Marci in AR
Just wondering, folks, but could it be that humankind has actually learned something about sharing our "wealth" ( be it finances, food,information, or whatever?) . Seems to me, we have! Like the rest of you, I was changed forever by the events of Sept.11th, and I will be working through my grief for a long, long time. As I read this week's Gospel, though, what came to mind for me was the world wide compassionate response in the aftermath of the WTC tragedy. My sermon for Sunday will focus, not on a call to repentence,( so as to avoid the fate of the rich man who failed to share his wealth), but an affirmation of the fundamental goodness of those who reached out to lend a hand. Just some early thoughts.... Sharon
Marci in AR asked, "where did you get the name Dives?" --- Marci, it comes from the Latin version of this story -- it is pronounced "DIE-veez" and, in Latin, means "wealthy" -- it's become a sort of extra-Biblical tradtion to name the rich man "Dives". Blessings, Eric in KS (PS to DG in NYC: You're welcome. Hope you are dealing well with the tragedy.)
Some more thoughts on this passage as we roll toward Sunday. (1) Without knowing the end of the story, how it turns out, nobody would really like to be either Lazarus OR the rich man--both seem pitiable (like with Scrooge and Tiny Tim in Dickens' classic): one so pathetic the dogs lick his wounds, the other so pathetic he ignores the poor person at his door. Could it be, we all are BOTH? All of us are in need of God's grace; all of us can do more to serve God' purposes than we are doing; all of us have been poor, left out, looked over. Maybe we are being asked, on the one hand, (from the rich man's point of view) just what shape the poor take in our lives; and, on the other hand, (from Lazarus' perspective) just where and how we are most needy.
(2) Isn't it also true that both Lazarus and the rich man need EACH OTHER in order to be complete? They represent, in both of their broken states, an opportunity for healing and wholeness.
(3) Why is the poor man NAMED, while the rich man is not (except in the Latin version, as has been pointed out)?
(4) It strikes me that this passage is not so much about what happens AFTER this life as DURING this life. Certainly, Jesus does not put in his stories unnecessary details--the allusion to what happens after the two men die (A) shows that, in ultimate terms, they were on equal footing (both mortal)and (B)sets up Jesus' "pun" about people not heeding, even if one rises from the dead.
So the wonderful word we can offer is this: while in the world to come there is "a great gulf fixed which no one can cross)--in this world, there really are no "uncrossable chasms," for "in Christ there is no east or west"--and no slave or free, male or female, rich or poor, American or Afghani, etc. I'm reminded of a resource that might come in handy here: C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" (the magic bus ride between heaven and hell where the people in hell find out they would be miserable in heaven--for they were not prepared and conditioned for it in earthly life). TK in OK
As I've searched for answers to this weeks scripture, it was revealed that the rich man had never submitted himself to God to be able to be open to pain and suffering of others. As the scripture reads, even when he was in hell, he wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in water to place it on his tongue. How interesting, even in hell he was dependent on man for water, instead of the living water only God can provide. Dives sin was lack of submission to God. Lack of dependence on God, leading to lack of compassion for others. Lay pastor in MO
Two thoughts come to mind... One was about "Ethel" who went to a visioning conference regarding world peace... the discussion was heated, direct, he said this she said that... it was getting ugly, finally "Ethel" stood up and said... "I'm not sure I understand all that was said, but I was wondering if it would help if I baked a cake!" pulpitt@att.net pulpitt in ND (Another dare I say, Rick!) ;?)
Whoops, almost forgot my OTHER thought.... The other is in regards to those that might take their football, their marbles, their thoughts, their hopes and dreams and go away... I hope not. Here's an example... "Ernie" came to sing in the adult choir at my friends church. "Ernie" is from the Adjustment Training Center in town. He's one of several physcially and emotionally challenged folks that attend worship each and every week. He decided he wanted to "make a joyful noise" and join the choir... he was only there a couple of weeks, when two of the "old guard" in the choir, two MEN became upset with Ernie's "gift" of music. Seems Ernie sings a bit off key, a little behind, and a little louder than most. So, the TWO ADULT MEN, decided to boycott the choir. A few days later, some of the OTHER men of the church, heard about what was going on... THEY decided to JOIN Ernie in the bass section of the choir... to prove a point about inclusiveness and acceptance of others no matter how "different".
I see in both of those stories what I think Jesus sees when we take a higher road and as someone said, "BOMB the world with GOOD NEWS!... Blankets of love, buckets of water, loaves of bread and maybe even a couple of shrimp! Blessings to you all as you seek to be faithful this week and always... thanks for the passionate discussion... I love it! ........pulpitt in ND or pulpitt@att.net
It was Rachel! :?) She said, "I received an e-mail suggesting we "bomb" with food and books and info and with things needed instead of with hate and detruction (very summarized). It certainly reminded me of Jesus - who we all need. well, i jumped in it too, and reacted rather than really lifting up the gospel lesson. sorry. rachel" Rachel, I'd love to see that e-mail, if not on this site... send it to me! Thanks, pulpitt in ND or pulpitt@att.net
Wow, at least we are passionate! The question is, WHO, in our time, does not rely on God? In our community, we are studying the psalms, and psalm 73 seems to go well with the lectionary this week. Essentially, after lamenting the wealth and health of the wicked (those who depend on self, not God), the psalmist concludes that there is nothing richer or better than the presence of God in his life right now. Let me see now, Jesus did indeed say that we would always have the poor with us when the woman was so extravagant with her gift of precious ointment, but in Matthew 25, he essentially invites us to see HIM in the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the sick and the prisoner. A conclusion to be drawn from these two might be that we are to be extravagant in our gifts to the sick, imprisoned, hungry, thirsty and strangers.
Anyhoo, we are to be transformed in this long journey on earth to the point at which we can say with ST. Paul, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." Though none of us this week seems to have quite made it to that point, we certainly are trying.... thanks be to God. Max in NC
Has anyone noticed that in scripture it is Lazarus who has a name and the man who is wealthy is simply known by his wealth? Historicaly we Christians have only compensated by giving him the name Dives. Has anyone noticed that in scripture Lazarus never says a word. In John's gospel he has two talkitive sisters, but he never says a word. They do however intercede on his behalf. In this parable Lazarus has a champion, God who "rocks his soul in the bossom of Abraham." In scripture Lazarus has One who loves him and cares enough to give life to him.
I think the parable deals with the voiceless and powerless whose cause God champions. He gives the beggar at the gate a name and with His "Infinite Justice" he gives him a voice. The rich man can not resist seeing the man as his lacky, or as means to some end for himself. He tells Abraham to tell him to go and tell his brothers. What makes us think they would believe if they don't believe God's selected spokesperson. Do you think they would believe a poor beggar that a time of "Infinite Justice" is coming? I think that compassion for our other brothers at the gate is God's strategy against terrorism.
Compare the billions we have and the billions we will spend on this war with the billions who sit at the gate and would be content with the crumbs we eat. There will always be misguided "Messiahs" who would take God's role as their own taking things into their own hands and using violence as the means to the end they desire. Even a rich man like Asama may take up for the poor, voiceless, and powerless. It is the violence that betrays a cause that might be just. As a New York City resident the WTC thing hid us hard.
I love the question a child asked me, "Do they hate us because we are rich?" It's a question worth asking ourselves. Do those in the world who have contempt for us have it because we are wealthy or because we do not know them by name, listen to them, or care about their poverty? This parable is about money. Money is also about power and about justice. God's justice. He stands for and with the poor, hungry, forgotten and ignored everywhere. There is no violence in this parable. Only a day of justice when fortune is reversed. It is a warning. There is also a warning that many will not believe what God is doing. Many will not accept this way, not even a resurrection will persuade them. But God's judgment is just and will come.
My faith draws me to the Storyteller, the man of sorrows, the one who would not harm a bent reed, who does not curse, but blesses. He shows us the more excellent way. God's way of compassion, love, mercy, and grace. I believe the essence of stewardship is the same. To truly enjoy our wealth we need to give it away. It is more blessed to give than to receive. It might be more expensive to buy bombs than some good will with listening, helping, and caring for the poor in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
This nation has become such a blessed and powerful nation because it has been open to the poor at the gate. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses. . ." I have noticed one form of foreign aid that is often forgotten. Having a church of immigrants from more than 26 different nations, I see how many send money back home to families who live in Third World conditions. I also notice that the longer they are here, the more they must spend on themselves and the less they send home, and their children do not send their wealth home to help others.
We went through a time in America when we foreign aid meant dams and roads and building projects. We had a Peace Corp to go and assist people in need. I could be wrong, but I think lately we have been sending our aid in the form of troops to assist in war torn areas or to areas hit by natural disasters. While we are dressed in the finest and feast on the best,have we noticed the poor? What are we doing for the poor who would gladly eat not our leftovers, but the part that goes into the garbage? Beside God, is "man's best friend" (the dog) the only merciful one? We can be motivated because someone loved us enough to die a cruel criminal's death for us, or by the simple warning that a great reversal is coming. That reversal suggests that those tormented now will be conforted and those who are comforted now will be in torment.
Preaching this parable means we must comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. The Way is the Way! He is still the best Way. And because I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, I beleive it is the only Way.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is much more than a story of reversal of fortunes. L was not rewarded by God because he had been a poor beggar. The name means "God is my helper" and he had trusted in God's mercy even though he was poor by the standards of this world. Poverty is neither a virtue nor a curse. The riches of the rich man were neither a blessing nor a curse either. L was blessed by God because he recognized his need for God's forgiveness and trusted in God to help him. The rich man was condemned because, if he had faith in God, he did not express his faith by considering the needy L as his brother.
This morning, Queen Ronia of Jordan, a staunch ally of the US, was in NYC to express her horror at the dreadful acts of the terrorists. In her interview, she said something that sadly I have not heard from many in our land, including church leaders. She said our nation too often has, as she put it "turned a blind eye" to serious problems in other lands. She encouraged us to reach out now to try to understand how others feel and what causes a few within a nation to carry out insane actions of terror.
Now our nation is of one mind that we must shore up our security against future terrorists, even if it costs 10's of billions of dollars. We are massing our military and asking young men and women to be willing to sacrifice their own lives to preserve our safety and freedoms. These sacrifices for our safety may be necessary. Yet, we need to be reminding our leaders of our corporate responsibility to aid the L's here and abroad. Have we, as a nation, been so arrogant in flaunting our wealth before the world? Have we been too miserly in sharing our wealth with the L's of the poorest nations of the world? Jesus expects us to see all the L's of our day as our brothers and sisters. Today, the world is our doorstep.
Forgot to "sign out" John from NC
Someone wrote: "We had a Peace Corp to go and assist people in need." We still do. My sister-in-law is a PC volunteer in Guatemala. We probably need to "beef up" the Peace Corps (why not a draft for it???) Blessings, Eric in KS
To the Canadian in Scotland, So you have a problem with my giving off the impression that I have a corner on the truth. What is truth? Are we to be Pontius Pilate-like with the truth or are we to proclaim it? To proclaim truth, don't we have to have a corner on it? (John 18:37 NIV) "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." I listen to Christ. I try (and more often than not fail) to obey His teachings and to submit to Him. He is the Truth, and the Way and the Life. 78 times (NIV) Jesus tells us "I tell you the truth...". Later in Paul's epistles, Jesus is described as a chief or a precious cornerstone and that in fact, if we place our trust in that cornerstone, we will never be put to shame. I do have a corner on the truth Canadian in Scotland. So does every believer in Him who has redeemed us. Why do you find that less than gentle or humble? Rick in Va
Dawn in a far away place. The steeds of Helius begin their wild dash across the heavens, hooves announcing their arrival with gleaming flashes of red and yellow, orange and white. The rising of the sun, the birth of new beginnings, the assurance of light overcoming the darkness, once again raising the veil of shadow and bringing color to the grays of night and substance to the ghostly forms of nocturnal silhouettes. Dawn, a moment of hope for some, another day in which to enter the abundance of life, in all it’s goodness and promise.
But for her, for her the sun brings little joy on this day, as it has failed to do for so many days. Pulling herself off the dusty mat she makes her way across the hard rock floor, the dirt swirling about her feet as she moves. She long ago gave up the battle with the dirt, back when her energy was drained away, back when hope ceased to exist. Then there had been no dirt. In that other time, there had been conversation and laughter and food. Oh Lord, there had been enough food for each day, enough food so that one didn’t spend almost every moment thinking of it, yearning for it, dreaming of it. Food for herself and food for her family.
But that was back then. Back before the earthquake came, back before all the buildings tumbled to the ground, a jumble of rock and mortar and broken dreams. The great piles of debris represented the sweat of a generation, aching backs and pain-staking days spent placing the stones in place, locking them together with the mixture of mud wrought from the efforts of families and friends. Now, the efforts amounted to little more than a twisted joke of a past which seemed to have never existed.
Yet, as tragic as was the earthquake, it was the war which was truly cataclysmic, an event of catastrophic proportion, the unleashing of corporate evil on a level that shook the very foundations of one’s soul. It was the war that destroyed her past and darkened her future. It was the war that finally and completely crushed her spirit. The hunger was horrible, but even the hunger could not compare to the emptiness of her inner being. Houses might be rebuilt but how does one rebuild the crushed and broken debris of one’s heart?
She slowly reached down and picked up her infant daughter who was quietly whimpering upon the dusty mattress on which she slept. How she wished she could explain it all to this small suffering one. Yet, all the child knew was the gnawing hunger which was never satisfied. She pressed the tiny body to her breast. The baby suckled but no milk would come. The mother’s emaciated frame was too exhausted, too overwhelmed by it’s own physical lack. All she could offer to assuage her daughters torment was a gentle lullaby punctuated by her own soft sobs. She looked down upon the tiny form in her arms. The infant hardly looked human, her malnourished form covered with ugly red spots. Lying there, she looked like a small pathetic chicken. Her child, her poor broken child. Her tears fell across the young one’s head. It was the baptism of the suffering offered up through the pain of love. It was all she could offer, all she had left.
Today, I watched as the birds once again greedily flocked to the feeders that hang prominently in my back yard. They squawked at one another, angrily trying to get the best position. Feathers flew as they noisily jostled about. They are the fortunate ones. They are well fed. They are fat. And if things here no longer meet their need, they will fly to another feeder in another yard. As I watched them, I thought of ditches and broken children. I thought of bombed buildings and suffering families. I thought of efforts to claim vengeance, to right wrongs that will never be made right. And I wondered … I wondered if I might ever fill in that ditch that lay between me and a small child who looked so much like a tormented chicken. Lord forgive me, forgive us all.
Shalom my friends, Nail-Bender in NC
OK Chilsren lets stop acting childish and start acting child like and respecting each other's right to be wrong. Lets not gang up on Rick unless we are perfect ourselves. Can anyone cast the first stone. I recently attended a seminar on Biblical Integrety in which we were called to remain faithful to what the scripture say and not what we want it to mean. This is a Parable, a story Jesus told to illustrate a point. The point Jesus was making is that Even though he would return from death there were those who still not believe He was who he said he was. This Lazuras was not he Lazuras Jesus raised from the dead. His family was reasonably welthy. Harold in Alabama
To Rick in VA. . .I wish I could say these things face to face as I fear my remarks are coming across in a harsh way. That is not my intention. I trust you understand where I am coming from even if you don't agree with me. I don't have a problem with the Truth. Truth is absolute in the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. I also know Him who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
However, I do not claim to perfectly understand the truth. I recognise that whilst the Truth in Jesus is absolute, my understanding is not. To be confident in the Truth as embodied in the person of Jesus and as revealed in the scriptures is one thing. To be dogmatic about our particular perspective/interpretation is quite another.
This discussion forum is an attempt by all of us to use our human understanding to come as close to the truth as we can so that we might proclaim the Gospel message with confidence. I guess my approach to ministry and preaching is to show Christ to all that they might find life. I always qualify my life with the reminder to my people that all of us suffer with the myopia of sin and thus we find it difficult to focus in on the truth. I fear that the myopia of wealth, comfort, and our dislike of being identified as sinners in need of God's grace hinders us from hearing the parable in all of its richness.
Preaching the Gospel with humility and gentleness is saying, "I know the Answer. . .but I don't know all the answers." Respectfully and in the Love of Christ. . .A Canadian in Scotland.
I'm writing without reading all of your posts (an unfortunate habit of mine). I'm asking my congregation "What will it take to convince you?" This title was given about 6 weeks ago, when I thought we needed to look at what it takes to convince us to care for those in need. Well now we've seen that for many of us it takes a national tragedy. Many have been convinced that they must help--surely a good thing. But when this simmers down, and it will, will we find that our world as changed forever (as the media portrays), or will we find ourselves going back to the status quo. Will even this even have convinced us that we need to be using our wealth to help those in need?
And just a note regarding Buchanan and Robertson, et al. When the rich man in our parable asked for a warning to be given to his brothers, the answer was "No". God doesn't work that way. They've had the scriptures and teachings of their faith and if that hasn't been enough, then they must live with the consequences. I will preach to my congregation that God did not cause this event or "allow" this event as a warning to our people.
People of faith already know what is expected. If we haven't lived up to God's expectations, then nothing is likely to convince us. Pam in San Bernardino
A few weeks ago I reworked an old Peter Marshall sermon titled "By Invitation of Jesus of Nazareth," where a rich man went into the streets and invited the poor, the blind, the lame and the wretched to a banquet at his home. As a working journalist, you could say I "localized" this story. With this passage, I am still captivated by verse 31 and it is from there that I will draw the message, "What Difference Does It Make?" that Jesus rose from the dead. Pastor Buzz in TN (Ripshin@aol.com)
Rick...I know it might feel like everyone is ganging up on you this week, and I think everyone can feel your frustration with "mainline" Christianity as evidenced in your submissions. I am a seminary student right now, and I think I agree with you on most of what you are saying, one hundred percent. But, when I am reading your words, I find it difficult to "take your side" on any argument simply because of the way you come across. You make alot of assumptions about people, by saying things like "most in mainline religions don't believe in heaven and hell" [paraphrased]. How do you know what most mainline Christians believe? Have you conducted a survey that I don't know about?
I agree that we have been given authority to preach the truth and to proclaim the gospel, but I want to tell you in Christian love that you may need to work on your presentation a little. With all due respect, brother, even those who are in agreement with you are wincing at your submissions. Thank you for your insights, and I am praying for you. E in MO
Dear Friends, Here's an excerpt from a longer email I received from several sources today. It resonates for me with Pam's question ... with ALL of our questions: what will it take for us to "get it" as a people ... to finally live into our potential to BE the people of God? (And a note to those frustrated with the tone and timbre of the posts this week: this too, shall pass. Rick has a long and valorous history of being the Conservative Voice Crying in the DPS Wilderness ... a voice more productively applied on the discussion and wts pages. Thanks to those who've stuck to the lections at hand this week and not been deterred by the wrangling!) Blessings, all! susan in sanpedro
=== NEW YORK-Responding to recent events on Earth, God, the omniscient creator-deity worshipped by billions of followers of various faiths for more than 6,000 years, angrily clarified His longtime stance against humans killing each other Monday. "Look, I don't know, maybe I haven't made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again," said the Lord, His divine face betraying visible emotion during a press conference near the site of the fallen Twin Towers. "Somehow, people keep coming up with the idea that I want them to kill their neighbor. Well, I don't. And to be honest, I'm really getting sick and tired of it. Get it straight. Not only do I not want anybody to kill anyone, but I specifically commanded you not to, in really simple terms that anybody ought to be able to understand."
Worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, God said His name has been invoked countless times over the centuries as a reason to kill in what He called "an unending cycle of violence." "I don't care how holy somebody claims to be," God said. "If a person tells you it's My will that they kill someone, they're wrong. Got it? I don't care what religion you are, or who you think your enemy is, here it is one more time: No killing, in My name or anyone else's, ever again."
The press conference came as a surprise to humankind, as God rarely intervenes in earthly affairs. As a matter of longstanding policy, He has traditionally left the task of interpreting His message and divine will to clerics, rabbis, priests, imams, and Biblical scholars. Theologians and laymen alike have been given the task of pondering His ineffable mysteries, deciding for themselves what to do as a matter of faith. His decision to manifest on the material plane was motivated by the deep sense of shock, outrage, and sorrow He felt over the Sept. 11 violence carried out in His name, and over its dire potential ramifications around the globe.
"I tried to put it in the simplest possible terms for you people, so you'd get it straight, because I thought it was pretty important," said God, called Yahweh and Allah respectively in the Judaic and Muslim traditions. "I guess I figured I'd left no real room for confusion after putting it in a four-word sentence with one-syllable words, on the tablets I gave to Moses.How much more clear can I get?" "But somehow, it all gets twisted around and, next thing you know, somebody's spouting off some nonsense about, 'God says I have to kill this guy, God wants me to kill that guy, it's God's will,'" God continued. "It's not God's will, all right? News flash: 'God's will' equals 'Don't murder people.'"
"Worse yet, many of the worst violators claim that their actions are justified by passages in the Bible, Torah, and Qur'an. To be honest, there's some contradictory stuff in there, okay?" God said. "So I can see how it could be pretty misleading. I admit it-My bad. I did My best to inspire them, but a lot of imperfect human agents have misinterpreted My message over the millennia. It absolutely drives Me up the wall." I'm talking to all of you, here!" continued God, His voice rising to a shout. "Do you hear Me? I don't want you to kill anybody. I'm against it, across the board. How many times do I have to say it? Don't kill each other anymore-ever! Period ... end of conversation!"
Upon completing His outburst, God fell silent, standing quietly at the podium for several moments. Then, witnesses reported, God's shoulders began to shake, and He wept.
Being a crazy parent, I am getting up tomorrow (well, really, it's now "today" since it's after midnight) at 5 a.m. and driving from KC to Owasso, Oklahoma, to watch my daughter's band compete in a marching competition. We won't get home until about 3 a.m. on Sunday ... Now that's crazy! So, I've been at work on my sermon today and this evening. As I mentioned before, I'm not using the lectionary -- we're translating St. Francis from Oct. 4 to this Sunday .... but I thought you might like to see it anyway.... http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/csermons/st-francis-y2k+1.htm Blessings, Eric in KS
Thanks to whoever suggested the bridge-building metaphor: it seems to me that there are two mistakes that the rich man makes: firstly he fails to make a bridge in this life between himself and Lazarus by sharing his wealth. He then compounds this by (again as someone else has pointed out) trying to get somone else to be his lackey. As a result a great chasm seperates him from the blessed. Just one more thought: I think it was Kierkegaard who said "if the Bible said that everyone should have $14,000 a year there would be no need for Biblical interpretation": a lot of the comments that I've read this week seem to be trying to avoid the obvious reading of this story: unshared wealth in the face of poverty on our doorstep leads to condemnation by a just God. Funny how we all wriggle in the face of this. Froudie in UK
I am interested in verse 25 when Abraham says "during your lifetime you received your good things" What do we count as our "good things"? I believe God wants us to have abundant life on earth and in heaven but the definition of abundance/good things can differ radically. Those who see their good things as monetary recieve them on earth, those who suffer on earth are comforted in heaven yet it doesn't say they had no good things at all. I believe the chasm is relational, through others we know God and Christ, if the rich man had known Lazarus perhaps he would have also known God and the chasm would not have existed. I disagree that this is a parable about the six brothers, Lazarus is clearly the central figure-he has a name- while the rich man is known only by his status. Random thoughts from Sarah in MC
Sorry I'm so late into the discussion - busy week (as if we don't all!). In the parable, it's apparent that we are the five brothers of the rich man. As we watch this drama being played out, the man's plea that his brothers may be told, although rejected by Abraham, is ultimately heard - we are here, watching from the wings, being warned. The rich man is identified only by his riches. Perhaps that is also how he identified himself. I imagine him passing Lazarus every day, but to him, Lazarus is just a nameless face, as are the poor of every time and place. There is a great reversal here - now Lazarus is known by his name, which means "God is my helper." Ther IS an obvious connection to Luke's version of the Beatitudes, where the poor inherit the Kingdom of God. For Luke, the fact of their poverty is an important one - he does not spiritualize it, as Matthew does. Yet this poverty is not only an economic fact - his poverty forces him to depend on God alone. God is his only solace ("God is my helper"). The final point comes, of course, in the discourse between Father Abraham and the rich man. Abraham tells him that they won't listen even if someone should be raised from the dead. As Luke is talking to a post-resurrection church, he makes a very pointed statement. The church KNOWS Jesus was raised from the dead. The question for them, as for us, is: "will they listen, even though someone - Jesus - has been raised?" We shouldn't allow our riches or our guilt about them to change the Gospel. The challenge is to stand back from our own needs and desires and let the Gospel speak to us on its own terms. Gary in New Bern standrew@coastalnet.com http://www.standy.org
Rick. Good for you, in each of your posts. I do not waste my time in trying to respond to the liberal theology of many today, but I am glad that you have passion to speak for many of us who are with you. JJ in LA
Dear friends, I appreciate that which my sister Susan in San Pedro has written. I think also, that in context with the current passage, God would have added this addendum. My children, you know I also have said in so many ways to care for the poor among you. My prophets lifted my voice in this call for hundreds of years. Then, so that you would know that I meant it, I even sent my son to you so that he might tell you and show you in his life. I thought I had made it simple, but you keep wanting to spiritualize it in so many ways. It’s really so simple, in caring for one another, especially in caring for those of my least, you care for me. This is what I most want you to do: Love me by loving one another. It’s really so simple. I love you. Love one another. God Shalom, Nail-Bender in NC
Thanks, Nail-Bender! "God's Press Conference" is working its way into my still-in-progress sermon. But just to clarify: I didn't write it ... just received it as a FWD from about eleven different people in the last two days! Blessings, all! susan in sanpedro
My head is spinning! My life as a preacher/pastor changed with the events of Sept. 11th. All our lives changed and what I had planned for sermons is no longer relevent!! We cannot coast along with smiles on our faces, giving the "parade wave". We have our opportunities now just as Dives did. This is a social message for us, we cannot just zip along as we have been! We have and we still put OUR lives and OUR wants ahead of God's. I realize that the chasm between heaven and hell is fixed right here on earth. I have heard people say, "I am so sick of hearing about Sept. 11th." I just want to shake those people and say, "Listen, this is real, this is not a TV program or a movie that is being made for ratings. How we deal with this in our homes, churches, community, nation and world is real!! This is not something you can turn off or fast forward!" I weep for those who do not know the Storyteller because he is the story. I don't know if I expressed myself very well. I am thinking of titling my sermon, "One in hell, five on the way". WV Toni
Maybe the sin of the rich man, rests in the thinking of Ancient Hospitality. It is an issue as old as the Old Testament teachings, and constantly involves people. The richman did not offer hospitality to Lazarus, ignoring even the hospitality of the table for those who are hungry. When we fail to offer hospitality, escpecially in God's House, what are we left to endure? A separation from the House of the Lord? Who is to be excluded and who is to be included? JDL ohio
For JDL in Ohio: Precisely! And when I look at the Epistle lesson for tomorrow (which I FINALLY got around to not long ago, here's how Paul puts it to Timothy: "As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty or to set their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous and ready to share, thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life." So it seems clear to me (as Rick from VA noted many posts ago!) that the sin is CLEARLY not in the wealth but in how we use it. May God give us all the grace to both live and give abundantly, to God's glory and the benefit of the whole human family. Blessings, susan in san pedro
Picking up on a theme Nailbender narrated in the pervious discussion: That the chasm was dug by the rich man and by implication, that all of us contribute in the digging of this chasm. The rich man regarded Lazarus as beneath him in earthly life and even entreated Abraham to send Lazarus as servile relief in the after life: A chasm of his own making indeed. But I don't want to lose sight of the good news in this parable. Lazarus means "the one who God helps". I am reminded that Jesus crossed the chasm in his life and his death represents his ultimate bridging of the chasm. The name Lazarus is at once a challenge and a promise. It challenges us to recognise the chasm we create in this life that torments us in the next. It holds out the promise that even we, who dig our chasms of seperation can be helped to acknowledge our prejudice and selfishness and thereby be liberated by Jesus' selfless giving. Biltong
What are other places where the scriptures will heaven (Hades) and hell in this type of way, i.e., heaven below with flames and heaven above with comfort?
Mark in Ark
The point of this story is not to tell us what hell is like, that is a literal place of flames, but to lift up the comfort of God's grace, and the pain of separation from God. Everyone wants a miracle to prove to them that what God says is real. What this story tell us is, there are no more miracles needed we have the scriptures. If we do not believe the scriptures, we will not believe the miracle. Faith is not based on proof, it is based on acceptance. The acceptance that what God says, is true.
BAW Cleveland, Ohio
The point of this story is not to tell us what hell is like, that is a literal place of flames, but to lift up the comfort of God's grace, and the pain of separation from God. Everyone wants a miracle to prove to them that what God says is real. What this story tell us is, there are no more miracles needed we have the scriptures. If we do not believe the scriptures, we will not believe the miracle. Faith is not based on proof, it is based on acceptance. The acceptance that what God says, is true.
BAW Cleveland, Ohio
I see the key to understanding this parable as vv. 13-14s' warnings about not being able to serve God and money and the Pharisees' ridiculing response to the warning. I've been struggling, however, to link the two apparently disparate messages of this parable -- vv. 19-26s' reversal of fortune and vv. 27-31s' refusal to heed Moses and the prophets. So what if we proposed to resolve this by suggesting that what the rich man (and apparently his brothers) ignored was the message of Moses & the prophets about our USE OF MONEY? I know that some people are going to be quick to say that the rich man is in hell because of his mistreatment of Lazarus, but that's not what Jesus says. It's much clearer that the rich man is in hell first of all because he ignored Moses and the prophets. We can at best only deduce that involved his treatment of Lazarus. DB in MD
Jesus is the greatest master of paradigm shifts. In Jesus day some felt pretty secure having great barriers between "us" and "them". The greatest of all such seperations was that between "heaven" and "hell". Jesus says, OK lets take your paradigm and push it to the extreme. Jesus tells a parable and like most of his parables there is a reversal, where things get turned up side down. The rich, respectable man is in Hadies and poor Lazereth in the Heavenly bossome of Abraham and guess what that enoumous gulf seperating "us" and "Them" suddenly works against us instead of for us. Some might take this as litteral proof of Jesus belief in Heaven and Hell etc but I think does this paradigm shift with his word pictures and gives a wink like, How do you like them apples? Manzel
Moses and the prophets clearly foretold of the coming of Jesus. Jesus is doing a 20th Century "Duh..." here by suggesting "Here I am... the fulfillment of prophecy."
Manzel, I don't know about a "literal" Heaven and Hell but I do know this. Hell will be where God isn't and that will definitely not be where Heaven is which is where God will be. Without this notion, or the acceptance of same, there's no need for a Savior.
Again my reading, without the winks, is straightforward and "literal". I don't think this passage requires a lot of head scratching nor any reading between the lines.
Rick in Va
Dear All,
Here's a passage where emphasis is all important. If the emphasis is placed upon the rich man, you come up with all kinds of brimstone. If, however, the point of the story is centered on Lazarus, then you come away with a story of hope and redemption. Why do I find myself thinking that Jesus was emphasizing the latter?
Jim
PS to RevJan: so sorry to hear about the mishap with the auto, and, more especially, the lack of aid. You are in my thoughts and prayers. Sorry to send this publicly, but I've lost the email address.
What strikes me in this passage is the utter self-centeredness of the rich man. All his life he lived sumptuously and never gave poor Lazarus a crumb.
Now he expects God to send Lazarus to comfort him!Even is the throes of hell, he still doesn't get it. He feels entitled by right of birth or social standing.
Reminds me of a story I heard about a spoiled rich kid who went to boot camp. Can't share the details here, too graphic, but the seargant soon let him know in no uncertain terms that he was not in Kansas anymore!
ST
The religious people in the first century may have been responsible for servicing some of the immense gulf between rich and poor. Some of the Jewish laws concerning skin diseases would perhaps not have permitted a pious jew to have any contact with the poor man. It seems to me that this passage subverts such religious observance by reminding the reader that Justice is central to the Jewish law. The intended reader would have been well versed in scripture but it was his interpretation of scripture that was in error.
No matter how much we are devoted to the words of the Bible are we not capable of unjust interpretations of scripture. Conrad Boerma, for example, in his book 'Rich man, Poor man and the Bible,' reminds us how 'One's own perspective can be so coloured that texts are simply used to bolster up one's own prejudices.' I am sure the Levite in the parable of the Good Samariton found much scriptural material to justify him walking on the other side of the road.
John (UK)
Like BD in Md, I am looking at this parable in the context of last week's Gospel. Sort of a negative example of Jesus' comment, "Make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone, they may welcome you into the eternal homes." The rich man, by ignoring the need of Lazarus didn't "make friends" of the poor and downcast. It will require some more study to see how this relates to the Law of Moses.
--Rod in Pixley
My house is warm and food's on the table, Friends and family gather there. The music is good and we are telling a fable, There's a noise outside somewhere!
But the party goes on, the table awaits; Bread and wine - then a noise at the gate The altar is ready the blessing is said, The noise is just Lazarus, he's almost dead....
Hw in HI
In the novel "The Last Temptation" Jesus tells this parable and one of the apostles questions the ending. Am I right? Can anyone help me by telling me what his answer was and where I can locate it in the novel.
Irving
In Nikos Kazantzakis' novel The Last Temptaion of Christ, Jesus tells this story. Then the apostle John bjects: "The parable is a great blasphemy and cannot stand as it is. It must have a different ending." Kazantzakis puts these words in Jesus' mouth, "It does have a different ending, John beloved....God...said, 'Lazarus, beloved...go down; take the thirster by the hand. My fountains are inexhaustible. Bring him here so that he may drink and refresh himself, and you refresh yourself with him.'" This fictional ending does seem to be in keeping with much of what Jesus says. God let's the rain fall on the good and the bad alike. Is there a limit to God's compassion? One of the psalms says that light and dark are alike to God. God created all and loves all. "God so loved the world..." Is Kazantzakis writing blasphemy or is he trying to separate Jesus teaching from the cultural and social norms that it is entangled with in the gospels? How do you feel about getting into a discussion about this? Irving
I'm calling my sermon "Out of the Park". The idea came before this scripture but it works, thanks be to God. I'm intriqued by the "home run race". The home run is the only sports achievement in which the ball leaving the playing field in the right direction is good news. I'm going to talk a bit about these two players -- Mark Mcgwire (sp?) and Sammy Sosa -- Sammy's congratulatory hug of McGwire, etc. Jesus' messages were also often "out of the park". The story of Lazarus and the rich man is yet another example. In my very affluent community, money is the measure of success, achievement and respect. But Jesus has a very different measure. Jesus lived an "out of the park" life and calls us to do the same. May be some connections with the national scene as well. By the way, many thanks to all of you for sharing your insights and yourselves. I call this my second lectionary group. jam in ct
To Irving
It is clear that Nikos Kazantzakis' is adding things to the text. Now if you want to claim, as many do, that the Gospel writers added their own social and culture the the words of Jesus, you might be right, but we can't be sure. We can be sure that if we make changes to the text we have, WE are entangling it in OUR social and cultural norms!
KenTucky
To Irving
It is clear that Nikos Kazantzakis' is adding things to the text. Now if you want to claim, as many do, that the Gospel writers added their own social and culture norms to the words of Jesus, you might be right, but we can't be sure. We can be sure that if we make changes to the text we have, WE are entangling it in OUR social and cultural norms!
KenTucky
Irving,
If we're to begin using Nikos Kazantzakis' novel to help us exegete the Scriptures, where will we end up? Wouldn't we also, logically, have to entertain those who'd like to quote the artist who dropped a crucifix into a bottle of urine and called that artistic expression as to his particular views on one or more of Jesus' sayings? I think that's one slope we need to stay off of, literally, for Christ's sake.
Let's stick with allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture.
Just an opinion, however, strongly held... I'm amused (or maybe bemused is a better word) when some elevate the authority of extra-Biblical references while diminshing the authority of Biblical ones...
Call me perplexed...
Rick in Va
Rick, you wrote, "I'm amused (or maybe bemused is a better word) when some elevate the authority of extra-Biblical references while diminshing the authority of Biblical ones... " I don't mean to diminish the authority of the Bible. The Bible is authoratative for me because I can relate spiritually to it. God speaks to me through the faith experiences of the people of the Bible. God spoke to the people of the Bible through the events of their lives. What they understood these events to mean was very much affected by the worldview and other norms of their day. God still speaks, and with authority, too, today. But we who are moved by God have to use human langauge to descibre what we are encountering. I find that the reading I have done about Nikos Kazantzakis indicates he was a very serious, spiritual person. His views often were in conflict with his church, but he had the courage and conviction to suffer through years of abuse for his views. I don't hold him or others above the Bible. I simply find God speaks to me through them as well as through the Bible. In the case of Jesus' reply to John in the novel, all I wanted to get from this chat line was some discussion about whether this conclusion to the parable is supported by other parts of Jesus' teaching. I think it is. What is the opinion of others?
Irving
Rick, you wrote, "I'm amused (or maybe bemused is a better word) when some elevate the authority of extra-Biblical references while diminshing the authority of Biblical ones... " I don't mean to diminish the authority of the Bible. The Bible is authoratative for me because I can relate spiritually to it. God speaks to me through the faith experiences of the people of the Bible. God spoke to the people of the Bible through the events of their lives. What they understood these events to mean was very much affected by the worldview and other norms of their day. God still speaks, and with authority, too, today. But we who are moved by God have to use human langauge to descibre what we are encountering. I find that the reading I have done about Nikos Kazantzakis indicates he was a very serious, spiritual person. His views often were in conflict with his church, but he had the courage and conviction to suffer through years of abuse for his views. I don't hold him or others above the Bible. I simply find God speaks to me through them as well as through the Bible. In the case of Jesus' reply to John in the novel, all I wanted to get from this chat line was some discussion about whether this conclusion to the parable is supported by other parts of Jesus' teaching. I think it is. What is the opinion of others?
Irving
To Hw in HI: Teriffic poem! Thanks! To Rick: among friends, I have to confide that the word "clearly" gets me riled (as in "Moses and the prophets clearly foretold of the coming of Jesus.") I have no trouble with your conclusion, but when someone (especially someone without as faithful a track record as you have in wrestling with the Word out in the open here, as you always do) points out how clear something is in the Bible, it usually is about a passage where honest spitritual folk have real differences of opinion. "The Bible clearly says . . " always sounds to me like a challenge, or a flung gauntlet. (What is a gauntlet?) Well, I'll try to stick to the topic later in the week. kbc in sc
last week somebody criticised an article I wrote for a local newspaper saying that what I wrote was too political. They followed it up by saying that Christians should stay out of politics. Would I be right in thinking that in the ancient world there was no distinction between the things of God and political issues? Does our pre-occupation with seperating the things of the world (Issues of politics and social justice) and the things of God deeply flawed? I was interested to see that the methodist revival under Wesley was accompanied by huge strides in welfare; Education, health care, children's homes etc. Could God have had something to do with this?
John (UK)
(1). Lazarus="One who God helps"! What a beautiful name! (2). We are all "connected" and/or "interconnected"...to ignore the hungry, naked, diseased, imprisoned-[outcasts/alienated from God acoording to the worldview in Jesus' day]- is to eternally damn our moment of "carpe diem". (3) What is another person's nakedness, hunger, etc., that I would behold it with my sinful eyes...except that it provides opportunity for healing/wholeness- to be connected, to be made complete." My neighbor is my better self clothed in another body"! (4). The "transfiguration" where Jesus has communion with Moses and Elijah is, I believe, expressive of the "gospel of Moses and the prophets". The recapitulation of sacred history in the "text" of our autobiographical frames rooted in the present cultural context is quite relevant. The dialogue between the "literalist" interpretation and those who are sensitive to the living word that flows through the aesthetics of contemporary literature is not unrelated to Jesus' communion at the transfiguration experience. That is, the opportunity of eternal fulfillment of the sacred history being realized in our own hearts has to do with whether we hear the "gospel of Moses and the prophets" calling us to discover the "risen" Christ in the suffering and outcasts right outside our door. I "hope" we hear the cry of both Lazarus and the rich man so that "gehenna" does not burn up all of our time and opportunity to serve as covenant servants in the face of a pain-filled world that God so deeply loves that He gave....! The sacramental life calls us beyond the walls of the Church into the streets of broken-ness for his Name's sake. PaideiaSCO in LA
To John in the UK Boy! This business that clergy should not have public opinions on any matters other than God -- well, ok, God is about everything under heaven. When we are unwilling to consider God's direction for our daily affairs, we usually wander off in the wrong direction. And, putting clergy in a nice safe little box, and allowing us a pulpit on Sunday, but that's all -- well, John, I'm betting the soul who said you shouldn't have a say didn't agree with you, and used church/state separation to back up their argument. (We are guilty of the same when we seek Biblical passages to back up our beliefs.) Stand your ground, please. The social gospel changed the world. Martin Luther King Jr. (my favorite saint) did not separate church and state! (Of course, it got him shot, so take heed!) HW in HI
As I read some of the discussion, I think its important to point out that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was not original to Jesus. Back in theological college I read that it comes from an Egytian folk tale which became included in Jewish folklore (maybe through the Jewish community at Alexandria - just a guess on that one). I've come across another reference to this same background this week. So Jesus borrowed it to press a point, much as we might use an illustration from literature or film to illustrate a point on a sermon. This is interesting in terms of the discussion on the use of extra-biblical material in interpreting scripture. In this case Jesus has found a 'secular', fictional story to illustrate one of his own truths. I don't think he believed every aspect of the story to be true. Sometimes we can use fictional stories to illustrate a point, even though we may think them fanciful, at least in part. This does not mean we give them greater authority than scripture, any more than Jesus gave this pre-existing parable greater authority than the law of Moses or God's truth as he understood it himself.
Chris in Australia.
To kbc in sc: a gauntlet was the "glove" part on a medieval suit of armor. To throw down the gauntlet was to indicate your willingness for combat. OldMrGrace near Dallas.
INTERESTING--You all are making this TN boy stay with this parable for a while. I am wondering if the climax is the end of the story. What does it take for belief? repentance? Candler's Bill Mallard put forth the premise--not sure if it's original with him--that soe of Christ's parables were self-fulfilling proprechies--Christ as the Compassionate Samartian trying to save a Jewish man who, if he had the strength would have refused and thus the Jewish people telling Christ, we don't want a saviour like you. And here, the last sentence, concerning belief created from someone rising from the dead--again, Christ seems to be inserting himself in the parables. (Someone said that this wasn't original with Christ. I am interested if the ending is) I wonder if the treatent of the sermon could focus on what does it take for us today to believe? repent? worship? What kind of miracles, faith in the Word and so on. That seems to be the thing that popped out at me. In the movie, TRUMAN, remember what the director said, "people adapt easily to their circumstances. They will believe what they are told to believe and what their reality allows them to believe." (I think that is accurate from the movie) STAN
Stan, yes that last verse I think is the key and the most troubling. We have the old saints and did not believe. Now that we have Jesus who has come back from hell we still do not believe. The stakes have been increased.
sorry, A Friend in MD
There is a clear tie between v31 and today's psalm 91. It is through Christ we have a way to God.
The good news for the congregation: Believe and you shall be saved! LS
Dear All,
Enjoying the dailogue, as always. I'm struck by Jesus' use of an illustration common in his multicultural context (as in Egyptian roots, Hebrew adoption and adaptation by Jesus), and wondering.
On another line, does this sound like the inspiration for Dicken's "A Christmas Carol"? Sounded like the ghost of "our lives yet to come" to my wife (the smart one of the family, who can think when I'm too close to the exegetical trees), which brings out the possibility of waking up to a new morning when we realize it's not too late to change. Gee, that Dickens guy sure was smart! (And so's my partner!) Possible title: "A Dickens of a Story"
Blessings, MoRick
My late, beloved teacher Raymond Brown has a note at the bottom of p. 250 in his new Introduction to the New Testament. He says that this passage offers another similarity between Luke and John: "Only they mention a Lazarus, and the theme of the resurrection from the dead is connected with him in both Gospels." Like BAW, I've encountered folks who tell me, "I would believe, if only God would show me a miracle." The miracle is denied in the case of the Lucan Lazarus, with the explanation that they (the unbelieving brothers) will not "be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." The story of the Johannine Lazarus goes so far as to offer a test case. The response initially seems more encouraging than the dismissal of the rich man's plea in Luke. "Many . . . who . . . had seen what Jesus did, believed in him" (Jn. 11:45). But the opposite reaction is what ultimately carries the day and lays the groundwork for the passion: "But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what he had done" (Jn. 11:46). In the final analysis, not even the miracle of resurrection from the dead is able to sway those who had set their faces against Jesus.
Bill in SoMD
I guess, as ususal, I'm going a different way. One thing that strikes me is the almost petulant tone of Jesus' comment "If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." Is it possible this statement was inserted by Luke when the early Christian community was having difficulty spreading the gospel?
Does anyone have this illustration of the difference between heaven and hell? It was originally in Reader's Digest, but I can't find the clipping! A man dies, and St. Peter shows him two rooms, each with people seated around a round table. In both rooms, there is food in the middle of the table, and each person is furnished with a long-handled spoon. (Somehow, and this is the part of the description that escapes me, the handle is such that the people cannot feed themselves.) So, in hell, the people are crying and begging for food. It is in front of them, but they cannot feed themselves. In heaven, everyone is happy, because they are using their spoons to feed each other. I am reminded of this illustration when I read the story of Dives and Lazarus.
Will Willimon has a good point. If we know the consequences of our life on earth, and our eternal life is dependent on the way we live our life on earth, "How then should we live?" This will be the title of my sermon.
Another point, if you have children in your congregation, approach the passage from the standpoint of hope. Hope is not some etheral pie-in-the-sky thing. It is assurance that no matter how "horrible" things are on earth, God sees, God understands, and God will make life better for us -- even if we have to wait until we get to heaven.
Jim -- don't worry I've lost everyone's e-mail trying to upgrade my computer!!! Mine is grant@eosinc.com
RevJan
Rick, thanks for responding in such a gracious way. Yes, I understand the thinking that there needs to be a literal Heaven and Hell which makes Jesus absolutely essential as our savior. Yet I am confident that Jesus is the way the truth and the life in such a way that we never need to protect the truth or protect Jesus importance as we assist people in search of the truth. In terms of motivational psychology, the carrot and the stick have their place but there comes a time when they are not needed, when intrinsic rewards are more important. Faith developement of Christians is like this, there comes a time when Heaven and Hell are no longer the crucial concerns in the way in which we follow and serve Christ. As we look at those whose lives embody great faith we see that to love God supremely and love our neighbor as ourselves is abundant motivation. Fear is a very effective motivator but perfect love casts out fear. The question for us in regard to this parable is "does Jesus try to increase people's fear in order to guide their behavior or does Jesus touch upon the fear that people have to help them gain new perspective on their lives"? Do we serve Christ by trying to scare the Hell out of people or do we better serve Christ by helping people come to terms with the fear that is already inside them and already a part of the way they percieve reality? Manzel
To Rev Jan, I am not familiar with the Reader's Digest piece you have described, but a very similar story can be found in William Whites book, "Stories For Telling." The name of the story is Heaven and Hell.
Rick in Mo.
To Rev Jan, I am not familiar with the Reader's Digest piece you have described, but a very similar story can be found in William Whites book, "Stories For Telling." The name of the story is Heaven and Hell.
Rick in Mo.
Manzel,
I agree with much of what you say. I think that balance is necessary when preaching. I'm not advocating exclusively preaching in a manner that scares the Hell out of people. However, neither do I believe in exclusively preaching on God's sweetness, mercy and grace. I think that there are plenty of references in Scripture to "fear God" that don't allow us to arbitrarily dismiss them.
I also believe that many of the lectionary texts enable preaching that focuses on God's mercy and grace. However, there are those where our focus should be on other aspects of God's character as well.
The text this week (oops, I started to use the word clearly) I believe, allows us to balance aspects of God's mercy and grace with God's justice and judgment.
kbc in sc,
My intentions are not to rile anyone. My intentions are to grapple with the Scriptures from an overall perspective that Christ alone brings salvation, that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God, and that Spiritual warfare is real, implying that deception is also. No, I've not cornered the world on what is or isn't deception. That's why I need to be yielded (and stay yielded) to the Holy Spirit. Being human, that means I'll slip, more times than not. However, that does not mean that there are things that are not clear. There are clear things. There are absolutes. Jesus is abslolutely the Truth, the Way and the Life. That is clear. Those outside of the Church that deny this absolute need to be evangelized. However, there are those, in the Church, that will deny it as well. So I get a bit riled myself when denial becomes the absolute, especially in the Church, especially by Shepherds.
I do agree that Jesus needs no defense. I also believe, however, that spirituality is defined so widely today as to diminish the Truthfulness of the gospel.
I would ask those interested to read the following article. It delves more clearly (there's that word again) and much more articulately with some of these assertions. Here's the site: http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/05-02-98/national_1.asp
Rick in Va
To Irving:
What specifically are the other teachings of Jesus that support the "Nikos" ending for the parable?
As much as I would like to, I don't think you can support Universalism (We'll all get to heaven, eventually) in the scriptures. It is true that God's mercy and grace is enormous, but it might presume to much to consider it infinite. There is a bit of presumption (only a bit) in Dives request for a miracle for his brothers. The response is, "God has done enough already." It is amazing that He still does more (The miracle of the resurrection, just what Dives asked for!) But it would be wrong to presume that God must or even will do more.
"How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation."
To Manzel:
The doctrine of Hell is not intended to scare people to death (or scare them to life.) I'm convinced it is simply a fact. I can imagine someone saying on the Titanic, "All this talk about sinking and calls for lifeboats is scaring people. They should just put their trust in the White Star Line who cares for them enough to provide this wonderful ship." The concern of the White Star Line was to provide the lifeboats (unfortunately, not enough!) and that is where people needed to put their trust. One reason we can love and adore God and our neighbors is BECAUSE He saved us from our sin and death.
We may be saying the same thing, huh?
KenTucky
RevJan "if you have children in your congregation, approach the passage from the standpoint of hope." When it comes to our concerns about ultimate questions we are all children. Jesus realized this, I believe. He was a source of hope for people. Sure at times he sounds pretty combative, especially with the Pharisees. But this may reflect more the live of the early church in Jerusalem following his death. "Do not be afraid, little flock...." ((Luke 12:32)
Irving
RevJan "if you have children in your congregation, approach the passage from the standpoint of hope." When it comes to our concerns about ultimate questions we are all children. Jesus realized this, I believe. He was a source of hope for people. Sure at times he sounds pretty combative, especially with the Pharisees. But this may reflect more the live of the early church in Jerusalem following his death. "Do not be afraid, little flock...." ((Luke 12:32)
Irving
What's the point of the parable? The nature of heaven and hell or Lazarus getting fed? If the latter, why are we arguing about heaven for? Will ANYONE get to heaven and find their picture of eternity validated? Even if one of us does get it right, are we going to be able to sit around feeling good it about it if Lazarus remained hungry?
Sometimes we need a prophetic artist to wake us up, like Ezekiel lying in shit. Andres Serrano suspended a crucifix in the murkiness of a bodily fluid. With what kind of self preoccupations and by products of our own intelligence do we cloud over the truth of Jesus?
pHil
My fine fellow sojourners,
Before I begin, let me just say that this is a rather lengthy entry. Thus, for those who have limited time, please feel free to engage in copious use of the scroll key.
I am always amazed when scripture which to me seems so clear, so pointed, and the conclusions so obvious, is viewed by others from a totally different perspective. Perhaps this is why we have a body of faith, to struggle together for truth, realizing that none of us have a patent on such truth.
I must say though, I was surprised that DB suggested that Jesus is stating that there is only a loose connection between the relationship between Lazarus and the rich man, and the rich man's response to Moses and the prophets. Prophetic discourse is, of course, always focused on calling God's people to a proper relationship with God and one of the largest points of contention in this proper relationship, is the tie between how God's people respond to the poor. As in the text at hand, a proper relationship with God is always contingent upon a proper relationship with those who are the least, the marginalized, the oppressed, the widow, the stranger, the hungry, thirsty, naked, etc., or the one who lays at the feet of the rich waiting for scraps from their table. Ultimately, the chasm affixed between the rich man and Lazarus, is also a chasm between the rich man and God. Further, this conclusion, this point, is not made in some mundane text hidden away in areas of scripture in which we never venture. The prophets -- Isaiah, Ezekial, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, just to name a few, and then Jesus himself -- are abundantly clear in calling us to this proper relationship, telling us that it is impossible to worship God, if we withhold ourselves from the poor. It MIGHT be possible that God offers salvation regardless of response to the poor, but certainly, we will never understand the fullness of God's blessing, if we withhold ourselves from those who would be least. As Richard Rohr (sp?) so eloquently states, "we find the possibility of conversion in connecting our lives with the lives of the poor…if we are not going to be a church of the poor, at least let us be a church with the poor."
So, in this passage, Jesus again provides a picture of the great reversal: "blessed are those who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied," "woe to you that are full now, for you shall hunger." The shocking aspect of this story, is that there is no indication that the rich man was unjust in the way he had become wealthy. However, what we are clearly shown is that he fails to notice Lazarus. Only after he arrives in Hades, only after he has suffered a reversal of position, only after he is in need, does he notice. And more, his failure to notice Lazarus rests on his failure to respond to the voice of God. Thus, ultimately his separation from God, is intimately connected with his separation from Lazarus. Likewise, we are given no clue as to how Lazarus became poor. Whether it was from self afflicting actions, from social oppression, or from some combination of the two. All we know is that he was poor in life, but now, is comforted in heaven.
We in the contemporary church need to hear this passage, for I am afraid that most of us find ourselves too, clothed in purple and fine linen, feasting sumptuously while our poor neighbors face the daily horror of hunger, hopelessness, and death. Several years ago, I lived in Fayetteville, NC and was blessed with the opportunity to spend much time at Maranantha Ministries, a home and half-way house for men, women, and children.
One glorious spring day, I was sitting on the porch with a woman named Cheryl. We were just sitting and chatting, watching large puffy white clouds gently dance across the blueist of skies, the cool breeze lightly brushing our faces. We sat and we rocked, sometimes talking, sometimes just rocking in silence as we listened to the calming creak of the old chairs. I can still vividly recall the surreal nature of the experience, as I sat there communing with this attractive and articulate woman, talking about children, her time in high school and college, her past experiences as a buyer for one of the largest national retail chains-sitting and chatting and watching the world go by with this woman who had lost everything to Crack addiction.
Perhaps she felt protected by the beauty of the day, perhaps she just needed to share her past with someone who was not a preacher, drug counselor, or fellow addict, but for whatever reason, she chose to share the trauma of her childhood, the destructive forces which acted on her life, the loss of her mother and the abuse of her father. For whatever reason, she shared her deepest nightmares and her greatest dreams. I was overcome by the magnitude of her gift - it was the gift of her life.
As we talked, by and by the conversation turned to our church fellowship on Wednesday night. All the women and children from Maranantha would come to our church and join us for dinner and bible study. I always thought it was a joyful occasion where maybe, just maybe some of those classist barriers fell...where maybe, just maybe, immersed in this world of "church" we might just be able to move beyond some of those walls which separate us one from another and ultimately, separate us from God.
I remarked that since we had such a wonderful time on Wednesday night, I just didn't see any reason we couldn't continue having a wonderful time on Sunday morning. Cheryl looked at me and for a long moment. She was completely still. She looked at me with sorrow in her eyes and the shadow of sadness over her face and she slowly said, "We could never go there on Sunday." And then with more hurt than anger she said, "The people there already view us as a charity case. How on Sunday, as they all stood there in their Sunday finest and we stood there in our cast-off clothing, how could they look at us as anything but less than human?"
And as we sat there watching the wonderment of God's creation, as we sat there basking in the miracle of Spring, I struggled for a dissenting sentence, some remark, just a few words that would explain she was wrong. But instead I sat in silence. For I knew, I knew that she was right, that they … that I, would see her … one of "those" people.
That was one of the last conversations which Cheryl and I ever shared. She struggled on but the power of her addiction, the call of the streets, and the depth of destruction in her life just proved to be too much for her to overcome. Though a few tried, no one seemed able to offer her that word of hope, that voice of clarity, or that act of healing that could rescue Cheryl from her living nightmare. Cheryl left Maranantha. I pray that God will protect her, but I know that her demons are great and that the love which I profess, that we profess, is too often only made of empty words.
Today, as I read this passage, I realize that there was a great chasm affixed between Cheryl and the folks of my church. And that chasm only existed --- because we, the "good church folks," had dug it.
These days, I miss the beauty of God's people at Maranantha, especially Cheryl. And I don't much wear a tie to church … it seems somehow, rather profane.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
J. Fitzmyer says that Lk 16:19-31 "is to be understood as addressed to the Pharisees of 16:14." (So the parable is addressed only indirectly to disciples.) Funk & Hoover note in "The Five Gospels" that "the rich man is condemned for his indifference," not for his wealth. And P. Perkins writes in "Hearing the Parables of Jesus" that "Luke is very much concerned in instructing wealthy Christians in the duties of almsgiving. Early Christians did not condemn wealth as such," but rather the "false sense of security" that wealth can create. There is a kind of "good news" in the parable for Lazarus, in the reversal that takes place in the afterlife. No good news for the indifferent rich man, however; in fact, his attitude toward the poor man even in the afterlife doesn't seem to have changed (he wants the poor man to be sent to him as a kind of servant to help him out, and then to be sent to his brothers to warn them). The rich man apparently shows no regret for how his indifference affected Lazarus when both were alive, but only for how the reversal in the afterlife has affected him. Maybe there are some people who just never get it. Maybe the parable can simply help to remind us of the growing chasm between rich and poor in our world, and lead us to question the injustice of such a chasm, and wonder how we might make the best use of our personal and church resources to help folks like Lazarus in this life.<P> Thank you, Nailbender, for the story about Cheryl and its implications for churches trying to help the poor. My church has been serving a Wednesday evening community meal for 14 years. Very few of our Wednesday night guests are Sunday morning guests as well. I suspect that for most of the folks who help serve the meal, (and myself when I'm helping), we have a mixture of motives and attitudes toward our guests: charity cases, yes, but also children of God. It is difficult for us to develop relationships with our guests (except perhaps with their children, for whom we provide a variety of activities) because we are different from "them" (even though we are not indifferent toward them). <P>Doug in CA
An Episcopal church in South Carolina was founded after the Civil War. When the Bishop arrived for the consecration of the church, he asked for its name. "St. Lazarus" was the reply. The Bishop remarked that he had never known of a church named for St. Lazarus. He inquired as to why they had picked that name.
This was the response:
"Because we, sir, like Lazarus, were licked by dogs."
Paul Tunkle Alexandria Louisiana tunkle@iamerica.net
I am interested in what you say Chris, about Jesus' use of extra biblical material. I agree that these are clearly borrowed by Jesus from existing folk tales. Nowhere else does Jesus use this kind of language about heaven: Being in the arms of Abraham or the torment of Hades. These are literary devices. I wonder why Jesus is using them in the context of this parable.
The issue over whether we should add to the text or not is an aside. We do it all the time without thinking. Our theology is not a cold reading of the words but is tied together by centuries of Biblical interpretations and culture. Or reading of scripture is more influenced by culture than we think. I don't think that is such a bad thing. Baptising our culture in God's word is the best thing we can do with it. We use the stories of our culture like broken bread. We take bread with all its limitations, we bless it and then, when it is transformed by God, we use it to feed the hungry.
Oh, by the way, thakyou HW in HI for your encouragement. This internet thing is very new to me, for the first time it is making me feel like I am part of a world wide church.
John (UK)
Irving,
I didn't mean to imply that only the children need hope. I guess I'm just tired of bashing in people these days . . .
RevJan
A friend shared with me today his interesting insight about this passage: The only person who is named in the story (and it's pretty rare for Jesus to give the people in his stories names) is Lazarus. How different from the real world, where we all know the names of the rich--Gates, Murdoch, Rockefeller--but not the names of the poor at our doorsteps. Once again, Jesus turns things on their heads and forces us to look at them in new and different ways. (Second post today--just running off at the mouth [keyboard?])
Bill in SoMD
It occurs to me that we ministers are the gate-keepers. Our gates are opened if you know the combination (raised in our denom.), if you come with a friend, if you look like us. We perhpas might open the gates if you spend some time with one of us and are a 12-stepper, but then you will have to learn to look like us. Lazarus hoped for crumbs from the table. Those outside our gates hope for -- what? Salvation? Communion? Love?
I am wondering whether we possibly can -- whether I possibly can -- find the strength to hold those gates open. To say welcome, take a load off, get comfortable, you're home now. All the while, we will be uncomfortable. We will wonder what comes next. We will be afraid they will want to sleep in our homes. We will be afraid they will want us to find them jobs. We will be afraid they will want to look like us. My arms ache at the prospect of holding open the gates! If anyone has a blow torch, perhaps we can just remove them?
Hw in HI
Many thoughtful contributions this week...thank you for sharing, Nailbender. It would be very easy for us to squirm a bit and spend our whole sermon time using this lesson to take the temperature of hell and choose the wallpaper of heaven...but it's about the poor. Not even the figuratively or spiritually poor. Luke doesn't let us sidestep thhis the way Matthew does. It's about the poor. About Cheryl and Lazarus and the guy in my office this morning. RevJan, like you, I'm tired of hearing people being beat up. The last few weeks lessons have had some hard stuff from Jesus. Often my "other" pericope group has disintegrated into bashing congregations for not being with it, not shaping up, not hearing what they want them to hear. Lazarus name--the one whom God helps...God helps when no other has helped. The rich man, nameless, had many eager to help him. In the end, he is the one lacking any kind of help--even someone to dip a finger in water and bring him a drop of it. Who is our help and salvation? Not even if our congregations did everything we wanted them to in our wildest imaginations, would the answer be any different. God is our only source of help and salvation, and not we ourselves. We are all beggars at heaven's gates (Luther) Betsy in Ohio
Rick - you are gracious - I sounded off without thinking - my intro statement was *clearly* accurate - we are among friends after all - trying to think first and speak later - kbc in sc
Craddock lifts up two things. 1)the rich man receives a burial, Lazarus' burial, if it occurred, is not mentioned. Sort of like hedifference of a funeral with the walls filled with flowers and another where there are two or three displays and 2)the chasm exists to prevent those in heaven from trying (still)to reach and help those in hell. Interesting! STAN
You will groan to read this: I will likely preach on Lazarus and the rich man, Monica and Bill, and our own church. (So I am posting this message under both 1 Timothy and Luke.) Can you imagine how surprised the rich man was to discover himself in Hell? He surely would have demanded the Grand Jury's definition of sin, for he had never committed a crime that he could see. He ate well, dressed well, lived well. But was that a sin? Why Hell? He did nothing. And that's the point. By doing nothing in the face of such great need, he reduced Lazarus to an object. That's the connection to Monica and Bill. Sitting in the doctor's office, I picked up a copy of Glamor that promised a story about "My worst sexual experience" or something like that. One after another, 20-somethings detailed sexual encounters that reduced some passing partner to an object, stripped and ridiculed. When we stop seeing people as sacred and fall into casual sex, we have a pretty hefty demon on our hands. I remember John Wimber's warning to his congregation after a child was found raped and murdered: You can't have half a demon. When you start playing with sex, you get the whole demon. You can't just enjoy a little porn and then tell the beast to go back where it came from. We have a problem in our church with a few leaders who shout at each other in meetings, sometimes three or four at a time, no one listening to the other. It effectively reduces people to objects. I'm not sure how all this will come together, but I would welcome feedback, along with the name of the singer and words to the song, "Using things and loving people, that's the way it's meant to be . . . ." Bless you all. Anne in Providence
Nail-bender and Doug, This seems to reflect on your contributions.
George Buttrick wrote, "The story offers no support to the glib assumption that Dives would have fulfilled all duty had he dressed Lazarus' sores and fed his hunger. True charity is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it is not spasmodic or superficial. Ameliorations such as food and medicine are necessary, but there is a more fundamental neighborliness.
Brandon in CA
Stan,
Yes the rich man received a burial and Lazarus' burial is not mentioned. To me Jesus is indulging in a bit of irony here. Lazarus died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man died and was buried. From the worldly viewpoint, the rich man was better off having received a proper burial. But, from the heavenly perspective Lazarus was better off though he received no burial. Another example of the "reversal of fortune"?
--Rod in Pixley
I am beginning to think I will talk about our concern with where we go when we die.
There are interesting concerns in my congregation. Last week our little cemetery, which is almost full, added to its number a person who was not a member of the congregation, but who had a prominent local last name. I argued that if her last name had been "pauper", and the family had called us in desperation with nowhere to turn -- we would have turned them down. So why were we so ready to provide for those who had access to other locales? But I digress.
My point is that, around here, we make a big fuss over exavtly how our bodies are to be treated after we die. But we're not in them. Our bodies can be treated wonderfully, as perhaps was the case with the rich man, but to no avail. Or we can be tossed into a common grave, and find ourselves in the company of angels. We worry about the wrong things. Better that we take care of those who are paupers, that we seek ways to support those who have no support -- in this lifetime. Seeing as we do believe that our soul and body disengage after death, we should not be concerned for treatment of the body after death, but rather how we treat other bodies before death.
As for a children's angle, I am stumped. I would appreciate any thoughts at all, as I struggle to preach to ages 2 - 91....
HW in HI
Those sitting in our congregations this Sunday are either Heavenbound or Hellbound. Because Christ died for us we should be willing to live for Him and all that it encompasses(loving one another, helping one another, things the rich man was unwilling to do). Hopefully, when they all leave the church on Sunday they/we will be Heavenbound. May God's Holy Spirit guide us. LS
Two things are seen in this passage that we often have a hard time putting together. One is the judgement of God to the rich man and the other is the grace of God that Lazarus received. What was the rich man's sin that he deserved to go to hell? What did he do wrong? Nothing. That's the whole point. He did nothing to help Lazarus. On the other hand, what did Lazarus do to deserve to be carried by the angels to be with Abraham? Nothing. He received the grace of God.
colemine in KS
Colemine,
Perhaps you are already thinking what I'm about to write, but I was not sure where you were coming from.
Yes, both did nothing, but it was how they did nothing. The rich man had the power to do something, yet he chose to do nothing. By doing nothing, he disobeyed Moses and the prophets who, speaking for God, commanded the Israelites to show compassion and hospitality to the strangers, the widows, the fatherless, and the poor.
Lazarus, on the other hand, did nothing because he was powerless. He was at the mercy of the job market. Perhaps he was ill in some way or maybe he was an outcast. Jesus didn't say. Only that he was a poor man, covered with sores.
I don't have a problem with this parable. I believe that those who have wealth and power have a responsibility to assist those who are powerless and poor. But Jesus calls for more than just fulfilling our responsibility. We are also called to have love for our brother and sisters, whoever they are. I don't believe Jesus loves the poor more than the rich, but I do believe he has more compassion for the poor than the rich. As I said, those with the wealth and power have a responsibility to use them wisely and for God. The rich man in the parable did not use his wealth for God and did not reach out to Lazarus.
Jesus was also turning upside down a concept in his time: namely that those who are rich did something right and are being blessed by God while those who are poor must have sinned.
Brandon in CA
Colemine,
Perhaps you are already thinking what I'm about to write, but I was not sure where you were coming from.
Yes, both did nothing, but it was how they did nothing. The rich man had the power to do something, yet he chose to do nothing. By doing nothing, he disobeyed Moses and the prophets who, speaking for God, commanded the Israelites to show compassion and hospitality to the strangers, the widows, the fatherless, and the poor.
Lazarus, on the other hand, did nothing because he was powerless. He was at the mercy of the job market. Perhaps he was ill in some way or maybe he was an outcast. Jesus didn't say. Only that he was a poor man, covered with sores.
I don't have a problem with this parable. I believe that those who have wealth and power have a responsibility to assist those who are powerless and poor. But Jesus calls for more than just fulfilling our responsibility. We are also called to have love for our brother and sisters, whoever they are. I don't believe Jesus loves the poor more than the rich, but I do believe he has more compassion for the poor than the rich. As I said, those with the wealth and power have a responsibility to use them wisely and for God. The rich man in the parable did not use his wealth for God and did not reach out to Lazarus.
Jesus was also turning upside down a concept in his time: namely that those who are rich did something right and are being blessed by God while those who are poor must have sinned.
Brandon in CA
"If you don't know where you're going, you might end up somewhere else." Yogi Berra
Joe From OH
Doug, thanks for your thoughts and the clarity in which you offered them. Lots of tension here, is there not? Let me offer a word of encouragement to struggle toward real relationship. You will be a richer community for the struggle and will know Christ in your midst all the more. (And please I don't mean to patronize, I know you know this, so please don't take offense.) There is such joy in the journey and the joy is much the greater in a community who can celebrate diversity.
Ultimately, that was another loss of the rich man, the loss of community.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
A personal note:
My hard drive crashed, apparently last Sunday, but I didn't find it until Tuesday when I went to do by worship bulletin. One is being shipped -- I HOPE it arrives SOON. Waiting in expectation is difficult . . .
I have probably lost a lot of data, and everyone's e-mail addresses. Luckily, I can check my e-mail at work, and access the web from here, so all is not lost. However, please send me your e-mail address again, sometime next week.
Meanwhile, I may experience a new adventure, preaching from notes instead of a manuscript. Pray for me!!!
RevJan
Lord,
Wrap your arms around RevJan. Ease her anxiety about preaching from notes. Stir her heart such that she'd preach from yours, with or without notes or a manuscript. Send your Holy Spirit to comfort and succor her, even as we pray in Jesus' name.
And Lord, sent that repaired hard disk quickly! Amen
Pasthersyl -- we are missing your voice! HW in HI
Kay - we are missing you, too!
Dear Friends,
Oct. 4 is St. Francis' Day, and we've decided to do a 'blessing of the animals'. I am looking for resources. Any thoughts, sites, help? Please let me know here, or e-mail me at Parsons-Wright@prodigy.net. Mahalo! (Thank you) HW in HI
"If you die tonight, where will you be tomorrow?" This parable asks a different question. "If you don't die tonight, where will you be tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that?" Dave in CenMD
"Gross inequalities between rich and poor countries are worsening, the United Nations says, with 20 percent of the global population accounting for 86 percent of consumption. According to the U.N. the 225 richest people in the world have a combined wealth of more than $1 trillion-- equal to the annual income of the poorest 47 percent of the earth's population. And the three richest people on the planet have assets that exceed the combined GNP of the 48 least developed nations." --news report 9/9/98 Dave in cenMD
From another site, it was pointed out that 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' is an ironic ending, especially for preachers. If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets and have not been convinced by one rising from the dead (!) why should they listen to us? AJM in PA
I am absolutely offended - how dare someone suggest that Jesus doesn't know the rich man's name, why everyone knows who the rich are, and where they live. And to have known the beggers name, Lazarus. My, my. the world sure is achanging!! Knowing a simply beggar, givng a no good an identity; and leaving the rich good man nameless - this is absolutely unheard of, especially in my cultural society. We all know that wealth is a sign of God's loving grace given to those who believe and help themselves; we all know that success leads toward God's bounty; and that poverty is a sign that you are not in God's favor. My, my there must be some mistake! Jesus got this story all wrong - Lazarus who experienced hell on this earth, rightly so, he was a no good drunk and thief - stayed in hell; and the rich man well he cared for his brothers didn't he, he wasn't as selfish as the parable implies - he's got to go to heaven and be with Abraham. What is this chasm all about. After all this rich man gave his tithe to the Synagogue, he was highly respected, just because he didn't see Lazarus - well, that doesn't make him bad does it?
Tom in GA
Sermon Title: "What Beggar?"
idea: poor Lazarus starves to death at the door of the rich man's house because the rich man was unaware of his (Lazarus') presence. God (represented by Abraham) was not unaware of Lazarus and took care of Lazrus' eternal needs. We are like Lazarus in our need, but we are also like the rich man in our gifts. God has given us much; will we treat the "beggars" of the world or of our own communities the way the rich man treated lazarus or the way God treated Lazarus?
24 SEP 98 I seem to be in sync with other Californians like PaideicSCO, Doug and Brandon. This parable seems a logical extension of the reversals anticipated in Mary's Magnificat (Luke 1) Christ's first "sermon" (quote of Isaiah in Lk. 4:18-19)and sermon on the plain (e.g. Lk. 6:20-25). Evidently such "reversal" stories/fables were not unheard of, but the twist Jesus gives is significant: Lazarus has contact--or potential contact, at least--with THIS rich man. As some have said, the sin was apathy. I'm thinking of a title like "THe Church is a FOR-Prophet institutituion", and connecting it with Amos 6 (Lutheran lectionary) along with at least one modern prophet (MLKjr) who, in his sermon "Remaining awake through a Great Revolution" (found in "...the essential writings of MLKjr) refers to this parable. King notes that wealth is not condemned, but the mis-use of same, the fact that Lazarus provided an opportunity for the rich man to be faithful but "Dives went to hell because he sought to be a conscience objector in the war against poverty." Thanks for the stimulating contributions of all--I try to join you regularly. Peter in CA
As has already been implied, the giving of a name was a way of honouring somebody in the ancient world. The rich man was dishonoured by his lack of a name. God's subversion of people's expectations.
While the rich west holds many third world nations in the grip of debt, do we deserve a name while Lazarus sits begging on our doorstep.
I came across this in A. M. Hunter's excellent little book "Interpreting the Parables". I offer it as help to those of us who are struggling with the connection between the first part of the passage (vv. 19-26) and the second part (vv. 27-31). You must know that Hunter believes that the parable was originally addressed to the Sadduccees, who denied life after death and bodily resurrection and demanded a sign from Jesus. He writes this:
"Jesus is not concerned to give information about 'the temperature of hell and the furniture of heaven,' but he does insist that there is a future life and the Sadduccees inhumanity has to do with their denial of it.
"The link between Part I and Part II is this: if inhumanity has such terrible consequences for men in the next life surely some impressive sign should be given to warn them. If Dives had known what a 'roasting' was in store for him, how differently he would have treated Lazarus on earth! In the Epilogue this objection is repelled. If a man cannot be humane with the Old Testament in his hand and Lazarus on his doorstep, nothing -- neither a visitant from the other world nor a revelation of the horrors of Hell -- will teach him otherwise. Such requests are pure evasions." p. 85
I offer this for what it's worth -- I found it helpful.
--Rod in Pixley
I typed the above on a word processor and pasted it here before I read the latest contributions. After reading them I wanted respond to the preacher who suggested the title "What Beggar?" If the rich man had simply not seen Lazarus that was simple ignorance but notice that he knows Lazarus and calls him by name in vs. 24 which implies that he had seen him. He just didn't respond. To me that is worse than simple ignorance, it is active indifference.
A good title still, though.
--Rod (again) in Pixley
Dear Tom in GA Much thanks for your poting of sept 24 1600 (that's 10 am in Hawaii!) I do believe will use it directly in my sermon, as a letter from a friend. HW in HI
The DPS Home Church Site about Avon UMC has this quote from Andrew Carnegie: The man who dies rich dies disgraced. Anne in Providence
And now we have Lazarus. Poor Lazarus, with barely a crumb to nibble, so sorry, so pathetic, so useless that only the dogs come to him, so worthless that all he is worth in this world is dog spit.
It's like that with Jesus. What in the world does he think he is doing? Going around and talking about Samaritans, and widows, and shepherds, and now this pathetic piece of a person that belongs more in the refuse pile then in a story told by what we would assume to be God's son.
What in the world is he doing? Surrounding himself with scoundrels, course individuals that act like they know nothing about God, nothing about the better life, and certainly nothing about anything in life that seems to have any great value, materially, philosophically, or spiritually. Are we actually supposed to take this serious? Where are the heroes? Where are the pious? Where are the righteous? Where are the good folks who are bigger than life, who can clearly demonstrate to us power, and glory, and honor, and wonderment?
What in the world is he doing? I don't see any of these folks in the big church down the street. In the big church down the street, I see wealthy and successful folks. In the big church down the street, I see folks who walk into a room and we know they are good and righteous and holy. In the big church down the street, I see folks who like me, enjoy caring for others because after all, it makes us all feel so good. In the big church down the street, I see God's blessings at their finest - enough food, enough space, enough bibles, enough song books, enough programs for all who go to the big church.
What in the world is Jesus doing? He should have come to this place where I serve. Here we don't just let the poor get licked by dogs. We give them boxed lunches, and we teach them to read. We advocate on their behalf and work on their houses that are falling down around them. We know that we are holy. We shine our golden halos and we move easily throughout our community so that people will know what being holy looks like. If Jesus had any clue of what he was doing, he should have used some of us in his stories. Now that would have been a story worth the telling.
Lazarus, what a joke. Too bad Jesus. You should have picked another hero. No one is ever going to take this serious.
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
I have been toying with the idea that the story has TWO beggars in it. One, Lazarus, in this life and the other, "Dives", in the afterlife. Both are in dire straits and both cry out for mercy. Yet both are virtually ignored by the ones who have the power to ease their suffering.
I also would submit that Lazarus was not in Abraham's bosom for his "goodness" but for God's mercy upon him (as are all of us). "Dives" was not in Hades for his wealth (wealth is never bad if used properly) but rather for his indifference to other's needs.
Tim W. in OK
Why Abraham's bossom? Saint John Chrysostom suggests it is because Abraham was hospitable to everyone - even angels unawares! Abraham is a direct contrast from Dives, the unknown rich man, who shows no welcome to the man under his table -- we are not worthy to gather up the crumbs under thy table.
Tom in GA
Dear BAW in cleveland Ohio I beg to differ. This story on fact teaches not that miracles are not needed, but that miracles are preceeded by faith and do not produce faith. Consider unbelieving Israel in the wilderness who never believed God in spite of being fed and led through the Sea. We certainly do need miracles. Isn't salvation a miracle? Isn't answered prayer a miracle? Isn't going to heaven a miracle in spite of all we have done? Mike in MA
To John in UK, You are right in your assumptions about religion and politics! Christianity, as all religion, is political and they cannot be seporated. Jesus was political and died a death reserved for those who went against Rome. It is no coincadence that countries based on Christianity, or those once so, have the best track record when it comes to human rights. Jesus' ministry was based on human rights and as followers of Christ we have no other road to go then to be concerned with the rights of others and that means politics! Nancy in NE
Some thoughts: I do not see this as a parable, because real names are used and real accounts are referred to rather than "a certain man" as is usual in other parables. Let's not comfort ourselves with lies. This story is all the more powerful in that it is real life drama. It seems to me that what gives you a distinguished place on earth does not count for long. And what gives you an undistinguished place on earth does not count for much either. What matters is hearing and believing the word of God.
I get caught in the trap of forgetting just how rich I am, not as rich as I would like to be takes over my self, and I shelter myself from seeing those in need. While I don't have a poor man literaly at my gates they are present not too far away, in even greater need far away. How rude of Jesus to bring to light our sin. No wonder folk want to talk about sex than money. --A Friend in MD
Two random thoughts: (1) Lazarus was known to the rich man, after all he was fed from the dropping of the table, he was at his gate, and he was known by name -- as said by others the problem was that there was no righteousness among them, no relationshop. (2) Lazarus is not a "role-model", he is neither Abram nor someone who can hit a lot of home runs nor a politican. This person of God's grace is not the center of focus, but rather God. I think we need to be very careful these days when we talk about role-models (either failed or grand). Our only role model are "losers" and Jesus Christ. --A Friend in MD
Thanks to all for the stimulating contributions and the quotable words. I think I'll be deriving my sermon from the name "Lazarus", which means "God helps" (when no one else does). The only way for Lazarus to be helped is in the next life, and the only way for the wrongs of the rich man to be punished and the injustice of his getting so much to be rectified is also in the next life. It's another way (the final way) for the last to be first and the first last. This parable is another pericope that leads me to the conclusion that there must be a heaven and a hell, or at least, certainly a heaven; else how will the unrewarded be rewarded? It seems to me that in the telling of this parable, Jesus is assuming their existence, even though the story is fable-like and tells us nothing of the temperature of hell or the furniture of heaven. I love the image of Abraham's bosom, which is missing in the NRSV. I picture Abraham embracing Lazarus and petting his head, giving him the comfort and joy he never had in his earthly life. Jim from B.C.
HW in HI
I think I may have something for you on Blessing of the Animals. E-mail me, and I will try to bring it to work and send it on Monday. A FAX # would help. It may be too much to re-type during school . . .
I plan to start my sermon telling what I would do if I won the Lottery, now about $20 million in Illinois -- pay off all my debts, take the kids to Disney World/Sea World/Epcot, Williamsburg, Washington D.C., etc. then say "Lazarus who?", then go on about how I'd redecorate the house, then say "what homeless?" etc. I think they'll get the point. I also I'm thinking of asking the children what they would do if they had all the money they wanted.
With no bulletin, we plan to sing praise choruses, etc. plus some hymns. The only part that bothers me is that it's new member reception and they won't have anything to keep. Guess we'll put the welcome in next week. This is a new adventure in learning (and trusting the Spirit!)
Gateway says I can install my own hard drive and set-up my old one to take the data off. Wish me luck!!!
RevJan
Are we being a bit hard on the rich here?
It's true that this parable denounces the wrongful focus of the rich man. The mention of his 'sumptuous' eating, his 'purple and fine linen' seem not only to define his status but to be sarcastic jabs at the man's heart (or is lack of one).
But then the parable seems to shift. To focus on eternity. The reality of it. The tragedy and horror of Hell. The comfort and solace of Heaven. One commentator says that the mention of someone's name (Lazarus) makes it more than just a parable. We're told of a real person not just some character in a "There once was a man..." fable.
And then more sarcasm (as I see it). God the Father(as Abraham I presume) saying that the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (The Scriptures) are warning enough for those destined for Hell. And then the final gibe, that there will be those who will not listen to the Law or the prophets, nor will they repent even when someone rises from the dead.
This seems to speak as an apologetic of sorts for God's Word. The authority of Scripture (Old Testament - Law & Prophets, New Testament as embodied in the object of The Resurrection) are to be listened to and heeded. The consequence of not doing so is agonizing torment in Hell.
Nailbender,
I have yet to meet a spirit-filled, born again (re-generated), converted Christian who substantiates or personifies the person reflected in your last post. Your tone seemed (to me) to be far too harsh toward many in the Church. I do agree that the poor could use more effective help, more useful ministry. And I do agree that the Church should be the instrument by which this is carried out. But to single out the big, successful Church as a target of a 'diatribe' against the rich... well... you can see it didn't sit very well with me. And I'm far from rich, and belong to a small church.
I guess I tend to focus on lifting up the name of Jesus Christ, as the object of Salvation, and as the means of conversion and transformation. A converted, transformed Christian, operating under submission to God's Holy Spirit will do more to further the cause of Christ (including the relief of suffering and effective application of compassion) than deciding that rich people should be targeted as the vilest of the evil.
I can't help but wonder, in these politically correct times, whether the rich ought to be given the same treatment the social gospel proponents strive to give to other societal outcasts. Are not the rich poor in spirit and in need of God's grace and mercy as much as any other sinner?
Sorry for the length...
Rick in Va
Rick in VA, my friend - and I really mean my friend,
Perhaps you did not read the whole post or perhaps you simply misunderstood my words. My posting was never a "diatribe" against the rich. I am a bit surprised that you would reach such a conclusion. Unfortunately brother, I am not nearly so secure in my own righteousness to make such a proclamation. You see, I have spent ample time with the poor of lesser developed nations, so when Luke writes that Jesus says "Blessed are the Poor," I am quite certain that he is not including me in their number, therefore, I must be part of the other group.
If you would read to the next paragraph, you would find that I also speak to the place where I now serve. This is a ministry to, for, and with the poorest (always physically and materially, and sometimes spiritually) of the poor. If you would note, I speak to our failure to fully reach out to those whom we serve, wearing our false halos while we too, dehumanize them by making them into the "poor." My "diatribe" includes all of us, all of us who refuse to move into the world with the compassion and love that Christ calls us to, all of us who dehumanize one another, all of us who refuse to see the other. And Rick, understand, I teach Sunday School in that big church every week that I possibly can. I am part of that big church. The folks who go to that big church are some of the folks who uphold and sustain me. They are the folks whom I call when the darkness of night falls around me, so understand, the brush that I paint with is rather wide and I always get more than a little paint on me.
As for my tone, you are right brother, it was more than just a bit "tongue in cheek." But, Rick, most of us have heard this passage so many times that we stop listening. We honestly don't believe that it really matters whether we fail to reach out to the poor. Do you know that, according to the Society of St. Andrew's (the Potato project), this year enough food to feed millions will rot in our fields because it is not "economically feasible" to harvest it. This year, millions will die of starvation. Rick, have you ever watched as someone died from starvation, it is a horrible sight. What does this say about our love? What does this say about those who, metaphorically sit at our gates? What does this say about our worship?
There are scores and scores and scores of passages which speak to our call to care for the poor. There are also scores and scores and scores of passages which reflect the absolute impossibility of loving God when we fail to love our neighbor, fully and completely. Brother, consider Matthew 25, Isaiah 58, Micah 6, the book of 1 John, the book of James, the book of Amos, etc., etc., etc. In my heart of hearts, looking at church tradition, contemporary commentary, and current understanding of biblical history, and listening to the call of God's Spirit on my life, I do not believe that this passage is about spiritual poverty, unless it is reflected in the refusal of the rich man to hear God's call and to respond to Lazarus. There are plenty passages which do speak to spiritual poverty directly while being a bit more tenuous in the physical realm, but this is not one of them.
Rick, if I claim God's call for us to care for the poor, if I call the church to reflect the love of Christ in the world for those who are so beaten, and hurt, and marginalized, if I call my rich brethren to reach out and share their wealth, if I struggle with the opulence of the temple in face of the poverty of God's little human flowers and if I hurt when WE fail to respond, why does that so antagonize you? Believe me brother, the temple needs no defense, it does quite well on its own. But the little ones - who will care for the little ones?
We are all broken, we are all in need of the love of Christ, and none of us, not one, is righteous. Therefore, if there is not grace, then we are all doomed. But Rick, if a response to grace does anything, it will turn us to God's little suffering flowers, for in them resides the very person of Jesus. You see, it wasn't Lazarus that lay outside of the rich man's door … it was Jesus all along. Rick, I love you brother.
Shalom.
Nail-Bender in NC
Well, I hope I can make sense. Right after I read Rick's posting, I was angered and ready to write a scathing posting, but while I was composing what I would say, I click on "reload" and Nail-bender's loving and compassionate posting is there. I want to ask Rick for his forgiveness in my anger toward him.
He is right. I myself do tend to bash the rich. I become angry toward them. I still remember Ronald Reagan's remark while he was President. In the middle of his terms, he said "We all have to tighten our belts." Then a few days later he went to his ranch and rode his horse. A picture of him riding his horse was even in the newspaper! And all I could think about were the many inner city children who have never seen a horse in the flesh, let alone ride one.
And I keep reading about lay offs and down sizings, but then I read about CEOs who make a million dollars a year getting a million dollars bonus!
Yes, I do get angry at the rich, but that is why I remind myself that Jesus loves the poor and rich equally. However, I do believe also that Jesus expect more from the rich and those in power. I believe the rich and powerful have a responsibility to use their wealth and power to uplift the poor and oppressed.
This has certainly been a emotional discussion for me. Thank you Nail-bender and Rick for reminding me that Jesus loves everyone and calls all to God's kingdom. Praise be to God!
Brandon in CA
Wonderful Folks, Manzel asks some very pointed questions earlier. (Thanks for your gentle chides, brother - no offense taken.)
I don't believe that Jesus is seeking to motivate by fear. I think this is simply a picture of what is. This is a picture of the Kingdom, that place where Lazarus is comforted simply because he is one of the least, simply because God is God. If the parable generates fear, I believe that it is more a question of the way in which we hear it, rather than the intent of Jesus. Maybe another way to ask the question is: Why do we fear when we hear the parable?
Are there other thoughts?
Shalom,
Nail-Bender in NC
Have you heard about our Hikoi of Hope? Our last General Synod decided that the growing level of poverty in NZ was such a concern that it called for a radical response. “General Synod decided to invite the church and the nation to look at itself. they heard the stories of pain and suffering from across the nation and said ‘enough is enough!’ They invited us all to join a great Hikoi - a time of pilgrimage and prayer - to walk together with and through the nation listening to one another’s stories and seeking together a new way.”(From Hikoi support group newsletter) The Hikoi began on the 1st September at the extreme ends of New Zealand, and will finish in the grounds of Parliament in Wellington on the 1st of October. As the Hikoi passes through different areas people in that area join in, some just for short distances, some longer. Some all the way. The idea is that someone’s feet will be on the ground all the way. In areas off the main route local people are organising to walk to where they can join with the main route. The Hikoi passed through our parish last week. Some of the parishioners were keen to join, either walking or feeding and accommodating long distance walkers, others were indifferent, and at least two were adamantly opposed. These have withdrawn their support (financial and otherwise) from the Anglican Church in protest, giving such reasons as “The church shouldn’t be involved in Politics” and “If we are patient and trust Market forces everything will come right.” and “People have enough, they just don’t manage it well enough. We need to educate them.” They are long standing parishioners, affluent and have strong affiliations with the predominant political party. Make what you will of that. I haven’t the space to go into more detail about the Hikoi, reasons for it, and intended aims. There is some information on the web page. http://www.hikoi.anglican.org.nz/ Is this relevant to the readings? It does concern our struggle with the growing rift between rich and poor.
Bronwyn from New Zealand
I haven't read anybody's contributions yet, so I apologize if I am saying something somebody has already said, but I thought I needed to share this in hopes that it relates to the Lazarus passage. I think it does. I apologize if it is too long. Several weeks ago a man came into our worship in the middle of my sermon. He was obviously from "the Neighborhood" as we so affectionately call it. (Side Note: Our church is a small urban church in the midst of a deteriorating neighborhood. The problem is most of our congregation, 20-30 people, come in from the suburbs and have little or no connection with the neighborhood around us.) This gentleman stayed for the rest of the service (there wasn't much left) and was greeted and welcomed by our congregation. After the service he asked to speak with me. The long and short of it was that he said he needed some help. I explained to him that we have a policy not to hand out money to people for the obvious reasons (alcohol, drugs, etc.), but that if he told me exactly what he needed then I might be able to do something. He needed to tryand call some of his family in Alabama, so I let him use our phone. He said he had a car and wanted to get back down there to see his mother. I said I couldn't help him with that. I asked if he could use some food. He said he could, so I went down to our emergency supply and gave him some. The next day I went and bought him some more groceries to help him out since we didn't have much in our basement. Finally, he asked if we could help him get his electricity turned on in his name. I told him I would have to think about that, because since we are a small church we don't have a lot of financial resources. (No, he doesn't work. He claims he is on disability, and I am not sure what resources are available in our area for people in his situation.) I looked up some social service numbers for him that he might try to call to see if he could get help from them to have his power turned on in his name. I told him I would try to find away to help him, but I couldn't guarentee anything. I talked with him again when I took him his groceries, but hadn't come up with anything. I told him to come to church the next Sunday and we would talk some more. The next Sunday, he again came near the end of my sermon (I started gettinga complex about my sermons). I explained to him after the service that I had considered asking our trustees to co-sign for him so that he could have the power onin his name, but I reconsidered because that would put us at too great a financial risk that we couldn't afford to take. (We had already taken a big blow by being broken into and vandalized twice in one week about nine months earlier.) Therefore, I told him that we couldn't help him as far as the electric company was concerned. He needed to use the phone again and then he left. During the next week I continued to try and figure out a way in which to help him, and came up with, what I thought was, a good plan that would protect us and get him the power in his name. (By the way, he needed a deposit of about $186 to have the power changed.) When I took him his food I noticed he and his girlfriend had a pretty nice television. Not much else, but a pretty nice television. My plan was to ask him to give us his television and we would pay his deposit. Once he paid us back the full amount of the deposit, we would give him back his TV. I thought it was creative. Here is the point of the story. (Sorry it took so long to get here.) I hadn't mentioned my plan to this man. We had a Deacon's meeting that next Sunday, so I thoughtI would present it to them and see if they would allow me to carry out this plan. I was met with a numbing dissertation about who these people are, what they are like, and why we can't and should not help them in such a way. One deacon then proceeded to tell me (as he had before, but it never hit me like it hit me that day) that when the previous pator was there, that pastor put this deacon in chargeof dealing "with these people". He said to me that if these people know when service is about to end, then they can find out when it begins. He then told me that he has said to "these people" that "we take care of our own". So much for my plan. I wanted to yell, "How is that being the church of Jesus Christ?", but I didn't. I finished up the meeting with the rest of the agenda, prayed, and we went home. Still being a student in seminary, I have a decision to make, because I'm graduating next Spring. Whether to stay here, because there is still plenty of ministry to be done, or start looking to move on in January so that by thetimeI graduate I will have a place to go. Initially, I felt this meeting had made my decision for me. I felt if Christ was no longer present in the heart of this congregation then I was not the person to stick around and try to put him back. That was my gut reaction. My thoughtful reaction is to stay and try and be a prophet for them. To try and get them to see that sitting in isolation admiring ourselves is not ministering in the name of Jesus Christ. In relation to the rich man and Lazarus, I think we as Calvary Baptist have become Lazarus. Sitting at our table eating comfortably while the sick and the poor (physically and spiritually) lay at our gate looking for scraps. We have recieved the good things: food, clothing, shelter, salvation, forgiveness, redemption, but we are unwilling to share it with those who are in need of it most. The same attitude persists concerning these children's programs that we are going to try and start, but they are at least willing to let them come, as long as they stay out of the sanctuary. I've gone on too long. Let me know what you think. I know it is late in the week, but even if it carries into next week it will be helpful. I am considering becoming a prophet this week. Tell me if I should or if I should soften the tone a little bit and make it more pastoral. You all have such wonderful thoughts and I value your advice. In Christ's Love, Mark at Calvary in Ohio
Brownyn,
I'd say it definitely has a lot to do with the passage at hand, especially for your people. It would be difficult for me to relate the Hikoi to my people here in Illinois. Nail-Bender, thanks for the defining, clarifying message. Monday night, I met with my church council (all 8 of them -- 5 had other obligations). Anyway, I asked them to start thinking about our goals for 1999, what did we want to do/accomplish. Three answers (1) get rid of the boxes of old hymnals (which have been sitting in our fellowship hall/Sunday school room for two years), (2) get rid of the three extra organs we have, (3) landscape around the building. I asked about ministry goals, serving others, etc. The discussion centered around another group in the community who, once upon a time, tried to help the needy. They started talking about who needed help, then objections were made to certain people because they drank, or didn't keep a job, or whatever. The upshot was that group decided not to do anything to help the needy. Our church council about did, too. Except I suggested that, if anyone knew of a need, they could let me know and I could go to people who wouldn't ask for a lot of details, and see what could be done.
On another note, this church has never had a financial campaign. Lots of reasons. They use interest from various sources to meet the operating budget. One of those sources will cease to exist in a few years, and there are those of us that feel our giving should meet our expenses (NOT the other way around). We are suggesting regular, systematic giving, but not pledges at this point. There are those, however, who are concerned that when people see we have over $100,000 in CD's, will object to being asked for more money. (The CD's are about 99% memorial money that has been preserved.) So here we are, rich but thinking we're poor, and yet too poor to be able to meet our operating budget. Interesting conundrum!
I have a new hard drive, and Windows 98. Now we are trying to get the periphials to work. My friend has been here for five hours . . . He also fixed the modem on Bob's computer, which wasn't working before. That's what I'm writing on. I will try my own computer later.
I love computers, don't you????
RevJan
Brownyn,
I'd say it definitely has a lot to do with the passage at hand, especially for your people. It would be difficult for me to relate the Hikoi to my people here in Illinois. Nail-Bender, thanks for the defining, clarifying message. Monday night, I met with my church council (all 8 of them -- 5 had other obligations). Anyway, I asked them to start thinking about our goals for 1999, what did we want to do/accomplish. Three answers (1) get rid of the boxes of old hymnals (which have been sitting in our fellowship hall/Sunday school room for two years), (2) get rid of the three extra organs we have, (3) landscape around the building. I asked about ministry goals, serving others, etc. The discussion centered around another group in the community who, once upon a time, tried to help the needy. They started talking about who needed help, then objections were made to certain people because they drank, or didn't keep a job, or whatever. The upshot was that group decided not to do anything to help the needy. Our church council about did, too. Except I suggested that, if anyone knew of a need, they could let me know and I could go to people who wouldn't ask for a lot of details, and see what could be done.
On another note, this church has never had a financial campaign. Lots of reasons. They use interest from various sources to meet the operating budget. One of those sources will cease to exist in a few years, and there are those of us that feel our giving should meet our expenses (NOT the other way around). We are suggesting regular, systematic giving, but not pledges at this point. There are those, however, who are concerned that when people see we have over $100,000 in CD's, will object to being asked for more money. (The CD's are about 99% memorial money that has been preserved.) So here we are, rich but thinking we're poor, and yet too poor to be able to meet our operating budget. Interesting conundrum!
I have a new hard drive, and Windows 98. Now we are trying to get the periphials to work. My friend has been here for five hours . . . He also fixed the modem on Bob's computer, which wasn't working before. That's what I'm writing on. I will try my own computer later.
I love computers, don't you????
RevJan
There is much I want to respond to and to do so carefully. It is far too simple to misunderstand each other without the luxury of eye to eye contact or the intimacy of personal knowledge of each other.
I came from a religious background where my church could not be distinguished from any other charitable or civic organization. It was all about doing good deeds, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, etc. Necessary, important, central aspects of ministry. However, no one told me about the love of Christ that is so incredibly personal. No one told me about the power of the Holy Spirit to transform a life. No one really explained the Gospel, conversion, regeneration, transformation, sanctification, etc. And so I left the church for many years. I figured that I could always join the Lions or the local Moose lodge and be just as helpful to the poor and downtrodden (incredibly foolish and short-sighted thinking wouldn't you agree?).
Only somewhat recently have I truly experienced and begun to understand the love of Jesus Christ, the transforming power of His Word, the fruit of His Spirit. And so I cringe when I hear pastors say that we've heard a passage so many times we stop listening. There will be those who hear it for the first time and be changed by that hearing.
I tend to believe that effective compassion for the poor is a by-product of a converted life, a life yielded to the Holy Spirit. And so I guess I tend to focus on that aspect of Christianity that emphasizes conversion, regeneration, transformation. Maybe that's a filtration system I'll leave behind as I gain more experiences (however much I hope that I won't).
I've rambled on enough. I can't possibly live up to Nailbender's ideal Christian. Not on my own at least. Not yet. And maybe there's some guilt there that has led to my being 'antagonized'. For now however, I want to trust Jesus Christ, for salvation, and for who he's transforming me to be. And I want to believe that others must start with that same kind of trust. Then, as we bear fruit, real compassion takes place, real transformation. And we become effective ministers fulfilling God's purposes.
Nailbender (and all of you), thanks for your patience.
Rick in Va
Brother Rick,
None of us, as individuals, can live up to the ideal. Nevertheless, we are called to try. That is why, I believe, that God offers us grace. That is why God offers us one another. And as for salvation, who else but by the life and love of Christ. Rick, you are a beloved child of God and I thank God for your presence and your voice.
Shalom my brother.
Nail-Bender in NC
First, sorry about that double post. Unfamiliar computer, I guess.
Mark at Calvary. You will preach this message over and over and over again. Get used to it. That's our business, preaching the gospel, being prophets. It is very difficult for people to hear the gospel -- for themselves and for others. We are all very good at telling others what they should do, but I am becoming more and more concerned that in my preaching, at least, there has been little joy, little grace, lately. We are all poor, in some way. This passage talks about the physically/monetarily poor. There are those very rich who are poor in spirit -- who turn to fancy cars, long hours, designer clothes, trying to find what Jesus Christ offers them, unconditional love. I believe that the message of "repent" must always be tempered with the message of God's love for all people. I know this passage doesn't say that. But this passage -- thank goodness -- is not the whole gospel. We must be careful when calling our people to change (and change radically, for most of them) that we do so in love, and not because we want to have the most committed, most mission-oriented, most servant church. Those goals are in themselves attempts at being rich. Read Nail-Benders entries. He lives daily with people in grinding poverty that I will only ever read about (unless we do a mission trip to his church -- but first we have to do our landscapping). Yes, I will have a difficult time being pastoral in all this. I get tired of preaching the same song over and over and over. But then, maybe I haven't given my folks enough ways to share the joy and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. . . .
Rick in Va. You always call us back to the gospel, don't you. You are so very right. The difference between Rotary and the church is someone named Christ. Too often we forget to lean on him and seek his transformation in our lives. And yes, a holy response to the poor would come our of transformed lives. But a wise preacher once told John Wesley: "Preach faith, until by preaching faith, you have faith. And then, because you have faith, you will preach faith." Many Sundays, my preaching comes from the first, not the second part of that quote. I think its the same with the poor. We must respond so that we will respond in faith -- someday. I wonder what he thinks of all our debating about his words. I do believe that we preachers need to rely on him more, and ourselves less (AFTER we do our research). Blessings on you.
Oops.
RevJan
Just a reminder to all that DPS needs our help. I, for one, would hate to loose this forum. Check out the financial information. They are in the red.
RevJan
Yes, the chasm is still very wide, isn't it...your church sounds very much like my church. We have done some good thinking on this passage...now what will we do? I have been praying that God would send "laborers into the field" Out of the blue I rec'd a phone call from a newcomer in town, former UM's who were interested in the church. YES! I thought, Praise God! My tune changed as I drove across the tracks and found their home. No car, no phone, umkempt, unemployed...etc. "Not like us" -- and not likely to be "productive" members of our "dying and needy" congregation (with a nicely trimmed yard, thank you very much, Jan!) My heart sank. I had thought that God was sending new members to help me build the church...and "these people" were just going to be a drain on me . . . I was and am ashamed of myself. I know i am just as predjudiced as the next guy in the pew. God forgive us all. The chasm is very wide. Thanks Rick, for reminding us who bridged the gap. RevKK
To Mark at Calvary: The truth is that in every church there are some who are not ready to care for the poor. And when they are strong and vocal, your interest in doing so expressed for a board's approval sets up an adversarial situation, in which, in order for one side to win, the other side must lose. There are better ways. One is to set up a Pastor's Discretionary fund and use it to help people in emergencies. Donations would come from those who care for the poor and are ready to help. Mention the good things the fund is doing and people will contribute things like memorial gifts, etc. Be a little clever and diplomatic and you'll find a way to help the poor at your doorstep and teach your church something at the same time. I've done this at every church I've served. Good Luck Brian in Buffalo
Nailbender,
I'm sorry this is so late. I hope you will see this before Sunday morning. May I use your story about your conversation with Cheryl? I think it will fit in with my sermon. I won't be using it unless I have your permission.
Brandon in CA
Greetings to all... I plan to approach Luke 16:19-31 from the angle that the real problem is not so much money as what money does. Money (and possessions)separate and creates barriers between people. The concrete example of separation in the parable before us this week is the table. Lazarus longs for some crumbs that may fall from the rich man's table. The rich man feasts unaware that Lazarus even exists. I read somewhere that in the ancient mideast bread was used by rich folks as napkins. A dinere would wipe greasy hands on bread and throw it under the table. That is what Lazarus longs for, now if only the rich man could perceive his needs. While few of us can identify with either the rich man or Lazarus, the gospel challenges us to open up our table fellowship with all the rich folks and Lazaruses around us. The way that Jesus always did that was through table fellowship -eating with rich and poor, tax collectors, prostitutes, etc, etc. The challenge to us is to do away with barriers, particularly those created by possessions. That can be done with a shared meal, a children's fellowship time that is open to all kids in the community, a BBQ supper in which no one is asked to pay, etc, etc. Just my 2 cents. DDT in NC
I am getting into the discussion rather late, but would like to offer an observation which is that the chasm between Lazarus and Dives, which exists in the afterlife, seems to reflect the chasm in their lives in life. I am sorry if this might be a repeat of earlier discussion but to me the parable deals with the relationship between Dives and Lazarus which is almost nonexistant. I believe that the deeper issue for us today is the unwillingness for many to enter into relationship with the poor. It is one thing to hand out services and food to the poor, but it is a harder thing to actually establish a relationship with a child of God who is poor and/or broken. To offer food and help to the poor is part of the responsibility of the Christian life, but the real treasure, I believe, lies in giving of ourselves in relationship. And that is what is risky. I had read accounts of John Wesley who not only helped the poor, but actually walked among them, learning to know them and to love them. Can we walk in those places too. I pray that I can.
I hope this is not too far off the wall. But I think this passage speaks about serving the poor and at a deeper level it concerns quality of relationships in the here and now and in the hereafter.
Jon in MS
Just a last minute note for those interested in being "Biblically correct" in talking about this text: The rich man does not end up in hell, and Lazarus does not end up in heaven. They both end up in Hades. -pshaw
When I read this scripture, I don't see Lazarus. I see the faces of children, the faces of children on the streets in Tegucigalpa Honduras. Children- babies, toddlers even some who look like they are five or six years old lying listlessly in the arms of their mothers. Children and mothers alike are dressed in filthy,tattered rags. Most of the children have the matchstick thin lims and extended bellies caused by malnutrition. The mothers beg, but almost everyone walks by and ignores them. The children are listless, not only because of hunger, but also because they have been drugged with native plants so they will gain the sympathy of generous foreigners. Their faces have vacant stares. A local pediatrician told me they probably have irreversable brain damage, but no one really knows. No one really cares. They still wait, hands extended, unnoticed.
My next mental image is of a young boy (maybe 5 or 6) in Mexico. He is covered in dust from the road. He is selling chicles(chewing gum) for a peso, now worth less than 10¢. He doesn't go to school, he'll never go to school. There are matriculation fees, uniforms etc. He waits, maybe the next person can spare a peso.
Finally, I see the faces of people, some hispanic, some anglo some black some Asian who came to the Manos de Cristo(Hands of Christ) Medical Clinic run by our small church of 150 members. But who is greeting the patients? Members of the Hispanic congregation (all of whom live below federal poverty level) and volunteers from the medical community. Absent from the volunteers are any members of the anglo congregation. The "professional" medical volunteers treat everyone with a cool courtesy, a safe distance , a secure chasm is maintained. On the faces of the patients I see fear, despair, a numbness to suffering - until they are greeted by a translator or administrative volunteer from the church, then I see the hope as they are welcomed as a true child of God by someone who knows what it is like to wait by the gate and never be noticed until Jesus happened to come by and say I love you.
To Mark at Calvary and Rev Jan- God's blessings on you, I share many of the same struggles you have in terms of ministry with the poor. DON'T GIVE UP. Find two or three others who do share your visions and compassion, pray together, trust the Holy Spirit and hang in there!
At both services(Spanish and English) tomorrow we will use this hymn (434, United Methodist Hymnal) When the poor ones who have nothing share with strangers. When the thirsty water give unto us all, when the crippled in their weakness strengthen others, Then we know that God still goes that road with us, Then we know that God still goes that road with us.
Viajera in GA
When I read this scripture, I don't see Lazarus. I see the faces of children, the faces of children on the streets in Tegucigalpa Honduras. Children- babies, toddlers even some who look like they are five or six years old lying listlessly in the arms of their mothers. Children and mothers alike are dressed in filthy,tattered rags. Most of the children have the matchstick thin lims and extended bellies caused by malnutrition. The mothers beg, but almost everyone walks by and ignores them. The children are listless, not only because of hunger, but also because they have been drugged with native plants so they will gain the sympathy of generous foreigners. Their faces have vacant stares. A local pediatrician told me they probably have irreversable brain damage, but no one really knows. No one really cares. They still wait, hands extended, unnoticed.
My next mental image is of a young boy (maybe 5 or 6) in Mexico. He is covered in dust from the road. He is selling chicles(chewing gum) for a peso, now worth less than 10¢. He doesn't go to school, he'll never go to school. There are matriculation fees, uniforms etc. He waits, maybe the next person can spare a peso.
Finally, I see the faces of people, some hispanic, some anglo some black some Asian who came to the Manos de Cristo(Hands of Christ) Medical Clinic run by our small church of 150 members. But who is greeting the patients? Members of the Hispanic congregation (all of whom live below federal poverty level) and volunteers from the medical community. Absent from the volunteers are any members of the anglo congregation. The "professional" medical volunteers treat everyone with a cool courtesy, a safe distance , a secure chasm is maintained. On the faces of the patients I see fear, despair, a numbness to suffering - until they are greeted by a translator or administrative volunteer from the church, then I see the hope as they are welcomed as a true child of God by someone who knows what it is like to wait by the gate and never be noticed until Jesus happened to come by and say I love you.
To Mark at Calvary and Rev Jan- God's blessings on you, I share many of the same struggles you have in terms of ministry with the poor. DON'T GIVE UP. Find two or three others who do share your visions and compassion, pray together, trust the Holy Spirit and hang in there!
At both services(Spanish and English) tomorrow we will use this hymn (434, United Methodist Hymnal) When the poor ones who have nothing share with strangers. When the thirsty water give unto us all, when the crippled in their weakness strengthen others, Then we know that God still goes that road with us, Then we know that God still goes that road with us.
Viajera in GA
Thanks everyone! I'm finishing up. You've been stimulating again. Mark @ Calvary in OH: You've nailed it. I may read parts of your contribution as an example of how we think and act--or should I say think and don't act. Nailbender and RevJan thanks. My theme: "Don't care" When my Dad was dying of cancer his worst days he said were when he had this 'don't care' attitude which he described using a Norwegian word I've forgotten. When we don't care, we're close to death. Ah! It's nearly bedtime. God! May we all be a blessing as we hope to be lights in this message later this morning. SinNEr
Actually my theme is we should care and see and act. I just got carried away in the 'Don't care' attitude. I'm really putting in the context of 'really living'--i.e. faith active in love. It's late. Have a good morning, and God Bless!!! SinNEr
Dear Mark @ Calvary,
I truly believe that those called by God to serve must prayerfully discern where it is God wants to send us, and then go. I know and hear your frustration as you tried to find a solution to the man's electrical needs balanced by the fears of your people. I have two thoughts:
1) you will probably be permitted a little more authority after you are ordained - people will simply give it to you. Whether here or there.
2) The people in your church are people who are seeking Christ. They are not the wealthy souls sleeping in on Sunday morning. For them to come to a place where they see Christ in that man's face -- this may require little, tiny baby steps. But they are seeking Christ. Baby steps are good. Giant steps are for superman. Please allow God to continue to heap compassion in your heart, and save a little bit for those with hard hearts.
It is so very hard for us to move from a theology of fear and limits to a theology of abundance. As for me, my theology is pretty simple today (and not original): God doesn't want churches to be rich. But God has a whole lot of money. If God wants us to do something, the resources will be found. Okay, it's too simple. Okay, it falls apart after just a few questions. But the God I worship yearns for us to share what we have, to lift each other up, to stop being scared....
HW in HI
Brandon,
Sorry I did not get your post before your sermon. If I share anything here, feel free to use it in sermon prep. Thank you so much for asking.
Shalom.
Nail-Bender in NC